Do you think that Mohler was referring to “issues” like so-called Gay Marriage, and that the culture has moved on those issues, paricularly so-called Gay marriage?

In that regard I would agree with him.

The priest abuse scandal in the Catholic Church has certainly gone on for years, with many affected, and decisions to not only not prosecute, but to continue to employ such persons as priests and such. I know many Catholics whom this has affected, but many, also, who still love the church.

This issue is affecting the Protestant church as well, but due to the lack of connection due to theological differences, in most of the stories I have seen on Protestant clergy abuse, you have a problem in one church with no reporting to police. Then the guy goes out and gets another job etc. from a new organization. In the Catholic setting – the same people that fire are doing the hiring.

So, there’s abuse to go around.

I believe that people are leaving the churches because of that, too.

Though I woudl add that I talk to more people who leave the church over 2 other issues – 1) legalism, making an excessive number of rules (this is often the basis of some entire denominations, or 2) politics in the local church. Lots of people get hurt as business meetings and other loud people in the congregation who give very little grace.

So, people leave for a variety of reasons.

The church should do the best it can in these areas.

But as to whether the culture at large recognizes fundamental spiritual truths (e.g. the foundation and nature of marriage), that is often beyond our control.

“Do you think that Mohler was referring to “issues” like so-called Gay Marriage, and that the culture has moved on those issues, paricularly so-called Gay marriage?

In that regard I would agree with him.”

I think this is exactly what he was talking about. And I think he’s mostly right, except that I think we’ve been there for a while. And I don’t think it’s a bad thing.

I do not think that lessening the legal restrictions on people’s moral behavior is an indication of a more sinful people- I think people are must more open about their sin. I guess I do not tow the Evangelical line when I think that it’s better to have it out in the open than to have obedience that is outward only. And if people are going to start living according to a Christian ethic, I hope that it is because of a heart change, not enforced behavior based on what I think is right.

I’m fiercely conservative in my beliefs about what is righteous behavior, but I am mostly libertarian in my political views about moral issues.

Dee, did you see the comments about John Piper I just left on Friday’s post? It was about an article he wrote two years before TWW was started.

Looking for You, I’m so sorry to hear about your child. I pray for peace and comfort for you and a revelation of the love God has for you and having lost His own Son, rest assured He understands your sorrow.

I believe that this was all in God’s plan for my expedition. I slept an inordinate amount, ate too much and ended up reading 5 1/2 books, one of which was Rachel Held Evans book…

Sleep is good, Dee.

And the one time I was on a cruise, I’m surprised I didn’t gain 50-100 pounds in four days. There are some SERIOUS spreads in those dining rooms and buffets.

I would second what Kolya said. To those of us outside of America, this close, strong connection between evangelicalism and a particular political party is very strange. It simply doesn’t happen here. Now that’s partly because the “Christian” vote isn’t politically significant, so nobody is trying to woo us, but it’s also because (at least in churches I’ve had anything to do with) no minister would dream of getting up and preaching politics.

I do know that here (I can’t speak for anywhere else) the growth of complementarianism is driving people from the church, and there is definitely a trickle-down effect from the big-name American preachers; here the young and eager are all tuning in to podcasts by Piper, Driscoll etc. I would add that the increasing education of women factors in here — women who have power and affirmation in the workaday world are less likely to settle for being treated as 2nd class citizens when they come to church

To Looking for You — my prayers are with you, that the God of all comfort will hold you in His arms and bathe your lacerated heart with His tenderness

To all of you in America– a blessed and happy Thanksgiving!
and to Dee and Deb — God has raised you up for a time such as this. As you gather with your families, may you be aware that our Lord is saying, “Well done, good and faithful servants!”

Eagle,

That Facade piece: good find.

Dee,

Welcome back Reverend Mother! And here’s wishing you and your tribe a Happy Thanksgiving!

Dee this is for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S71CZZOGR4E

John,

You are not alone. I too am a seminary alumni, and I am a none. I am so upset at the business of religion now becoming a literal business. A money making, building buildings business…all the while preaching authoritarianism, and looking for a reason to “discipline” the congregation in order to keep them in line.
I no longer see the missionary spirit in the church. We no longer want to see Jesus. We want to see a new fountain in front of the church.

Looking for You – I am so very sorry for your loss and can’t begin to imagine how you must feel. Please know that you are in my thoughts and prayers. (((((((LFY))))))) [“old” internet-speak for hugs is (((([name]))))]

Deb – on no. family is in my thoughts and prayers, and you guys, too.

*

As for Al M’s pronouncements, I think he is actually describing – as Dee said – the alienation of those who don’t fit into (or have been driven away from) the kind of church that he believes is The True Church.

Thing is, the on holy catholic [universal] and apostolic church is FAR bigger than he imagines. (Than any of us can imagine.)

As for secularization, yes and no. I think church used to play a much bigger part in most Americans’ lives by virtue of the fact that people socialized there. While that’s still true, it’s very different today – you don’t see Sunday School orchestras or other community-oriented things where people (not just church members) can get together, play music together and just hang out with others – and give concerts for the entire community. (My grandfather was a member of a church SS orchestra back in the 20s… they were a big deal in this part of the world and, I think, were one of many ways that the church helped facilitate active participation in the arts. Once TV came into vogue… SS orchestras and many other “make your own entertainment”-type programs, both church-sponsored and “secular,” disappeared.)

The Belted Cow – I have officially passed out from the cuteness! Thanks so much for posting the link to that vid. 😀

Add me to the outsiders completely confused about the flag-pin Jesus of American politics.
Even here in the theologically conservative Sydney diocese, political/policy statements from leaders are few and far between, and stop a long way short of endorsing a particular party. I even read recently an article about whether Christians can vote Green. It was two columnists, one saying yes, one saying no. Most Christians won’t vote for the Greens (the main reason was actually because of a false rumour that the Greens wanted to legalise and sell all drugs), but they generally can talk about them without the histrionics that seems to go on in American politics.

And Deb, Looking For You, prayers for both families right now.

Welcome back Dee. A very insightful piece.

Let me just add that perhaps postmodern thinking is playing a part in what we see.

Postmoderns don’t like absolutes, so the idea that a particular doctrine (YEC or Calvinism are good examples) is the definitely true doesn’t sit well with them. Instead, they are happier to study the Bible, ask questions, and admit they don’t have all the answers – witness the popularity of Rob Bell, Ann Voskamp, and Rachel Held Evans, and the way their books have been slammed by conservatives.

And a key approach of postmodernism is to ask “why” someone is promoting a particular viewpoint. There is a lot of cynicism – is a preacher telling me something because he’s concerned for the salvation of my soul, or because he wants to increase his power-base, business empire, and personal wealth. There is plenty of evidence for this in conservative christianity.

Anyway, must finish now. Just my two cents.

Ian, it grieves me to say that there is some truth in this. I have seen conservative evangelicals leave churches that said the right things and on paper were theologically very sound, but whose practice ended up driving people away, even those who had been there for some years and very involved. It is a tragedy.

@ Numo:

“I think church used to play a much bigger part in most Americans’ lives by virtue of the fact that people socialized there.”

There’s a good description of this in the prologue of James Hudnut-Beumler’s book In Pursuit of the Almighty’s Dollar: A History of Money and American Protestantism (“Prologue: Sunday Morning, 1750”):

“The most public day of the week arrives. From Massachusetts to Georgia, people in England’s American colonies come together to spend the morning at their community’s church. In all but the largest cities, there is no choice in the matter of which church to attend. There is but one church for the settlement, be it a rural Anglican parish in Virginia, or in an urbanized settlement of German Lutherans just outside Philadelphia. People do not choose their churches; their churches are closely bound up with what it means to be part of a community. Churches are public institutions in the way that schools would later be regarded. A church building itself is the largest, and usually only, public assembly space in a town. Decisions about fixing roads and dividing land are made in this meeting house. Men were elected to the vestry, or council, or as justices of the peace in this place. Taxes and rates are set to support the public’s business, and no business is more universally important in colonial America than divine worship. On this day, other business affairs were left outside the church’s doors, though their presence was evident even in worship.

The Lord’s Day began in earnest with the sounding of a church bell or a town crier summoning the community to church. In New England most townsfolk live no farther than several hundred yards from the church, a practice required by law in the seventeenth century and continued in common practice in the eighteenth century. In the urban centers of Boston, Newport, New York, Philadelphia and Charleston, the distances to church are even shorter. In rural areas of Virginia and the Carolinas, one may be a considerable distance from the church, but bells carry long distances in an age free of mechanized noise. Moreover, at the crossroads where the parish church stands, community is to be had, a gathering of kindred men or women, friends, rivals, other youth, servants, a relief from the monotony of one’s own household and a reminder of a larger world beyond daily work.”

Unusually picturesque for a rather dry academic work.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!

Thanks for your prayers everyone. I woke up rested and peaceful and just… thankful that I can spend today with the family I still have (which includes several VERY healthy, happy children).

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Last week at Bible study in a mainline church, we realized about half were refugees from the SBC.

A few were refugees from ultra liberal churches.

While most would, on a survey, check “none” as to religious affiliation (no need to be twice burned!) most were very definitely churchgoing, active participants in the faith.

Home churching, house churches, and lay led contemplative services are growing here. So are the mainline churches. In our town they are far more conservative than their parent bodies.

Catholics are doing fine also.

Maybe people are not so much leaving the church as leaving fundamentalist, Calvinista, emotionally manipulative, life controlling little demigods and their fiefdoms.

It might be that the church is actually growing–that is, if we don’t define the church as dispensationalist, or Calvinist, evangelicalism.

I woke up rested and peaceful and just… thankful that I can spend today with the family I still have (which includes several VERY healthy, happy children).

So glad to hear that, Looking for You!

Deb,

That is so sad about your daughter’s friend’s father. Again, I can’t imagine. They are in my prayers this holiday season.

Thank you for telling your story. Those in the church want to blame it on secularization. — Dee

More like “blame it on The Other”.

“BLAME CANADA!
BLAME CANADA!
BEFORE ANYONE CAN THINK OF BLAMING US!!!”
— Kyle’s Mom, South Park: Bigger, Longer, and Uncut

About a month ago, i was looking at the car in the lot next to mine. It had one of those fancy stickers on it with the name of the church. It dawned on me that, years ago, we used to have stickers mentioning Jesus. Now, it is a church with its own distinctive “rules” for living. — Dee

Beware Thou of The Mutant.

Headless Unicorn Guy
In our community Second Baptist Church changed to a SUMMIT… Then we have a Vertical Church, a Gathering, a Connection, a Revolution, an Oasis, a Pursuit, and a Drive, amongst others.
But wait, there’s more! Your favorite, Trademark Church! (TM)

Here is where I think Mohler is really coming from/. He needs a culture war (and he IS a culture warrior) to hold on to his base. yes, he has a base tht is more political than folks think. The culture war was highly successful in evangelical circles for about 40 years. It made mini empires and dynasties in evangelicalism.

The problem is there are fewer and fewer culture warriors. He is trying to instill the culture warrior instinct into the young minds full of mush who are his base now. the “culture” is the enemy they need to maintain and grow a movement.

They are never the problem. He cannot understand that he promotes and champions a reprobate culture full of fake Christianity himself by promoting and protecting guys like Mahaney. By loving authority and power over victims. Nevermind his putting Ezell in a position to partner with Acts 29 which reeks of Driscoll DNA, the culture of sex and hating women.

Anon 1,

Yes, great point. The culture war is what makes Mohler relevant. He’s nothing without it. His whole tenure at SBS has a culture war driven inquisition against liberal Christianity and lashing out at ‘the culture’.

“As for grace, that is for the less Christian amongst us. You know, too much grace and people will go donw the path to hell.We now need Wayne Grudem’s 83 rules for complementarian living to be real Christians”

Great observation, Dee!

Sophie – we’re posting simultaneously here!

I can only suppose they thought it would be bad for business.

The way they actually got around it was their “present truth” doctrine. Based on a rip-off of 2 Peter 1:12, in which they translate the phrase “the truth you now have” as “the present truth”. Either way, they claim that all their doctrines and prophetic calculations are infallibly accurate based on the truth that Jehovah has revealed up to now. When they’re forced to change a doctrine or retract a prediction, it’s not because they screwed up; it’s because Jehovah has rewarded their faithfulness by revealing more truth. So, of course, they can never be wrong, even when they are.

If that’s how it works then the shadowy leaders of the JW movement could have just tried to insist that the world DID in fact end in 1975! — Sophie

I think one minor end-of-the-world cult actually did try that after-the-date explanation. Something about “The world DID end on The Date, but Satan hath sent you strong delusion that you believe the lie.”

And as for the 1975 Rosh Hashanah Rapture Scare, that WASN’T limited to the JWs. It may have originated among them, but it made the jump to a LOT of Evangelicals and Fundies and Fundagelicals with no trace or mention of its JW origins. I remember it very well — it was THE biggest Rapture Scare I have ever experienced.

Yes, great point. The culture war is what makes Mohler relevant. He’s nothing without it. His whole tenure at SBS has a culture war driven inquisition against liberal Christianity and lashing out at ‘the culture’. — Anon1 & CalebW

Just like previous generations lashed out at “the Jews”…

Adrian Warnock has ignorantly cited hypocrite Al Mohler on the issue of child abuse: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/adrianwarnock/2012/11/child-sexual-abuse-and-the-limits-of-pastoral-confidentiality/

Sorry, forgot to post the link: http://www.amazon.com/Conviction-Lead-The-Principles-Leadership/product-reviews/0764210041/ref=pd_ybh_1_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Warnock actually recommend’s the SBC’s website as a resource regarding child abuse. He recommends the same page that contains this despicable document rejecting an offender database: http://www.sbc.net/PDF/2008ReportSBC.pdf

I’ve posted at this blog before, but maybe under a different name. I am bad at remembering which names and e-mail addresses I’ve used at blogs before, unless it’s a blog I post to very frequently (as in daily).

Kolya, I am a Christian and a Republican.

I really don’t have a problem with the political aspects of American evangelicalism, that they tend to lean right or vote Republican, or to support Republican nominees.

I am, however, getting a little tired of the *constant emphasis* placed on the politics.

I’ve lurked at this blog for awhile and had a hard time posting. I don’t agree with all the view points I see all the time from everyone, but I do relate to certain aspects of things I see mentioned at times.

I have experienced some hurt at the hands of other Christians (not as severe as some of the other things I’ve seen on this blog), but due to being judged and criticized or ignored by Christians, especially at one of the lowest times in my life.

After someone close to me died a few years ago, and I turned to other Christians for support, I got judgement instead, or platitudes, criticized, or ignored.

Therefore, I’m reluctant to go back to a church, or confide in other Christians (at least in person. I’m a little more comfortable with doing so online).

I am a YEC (Young Earth Creationist), but I’ve not heard it or seen it crammed down anyone’s throat, or used as a litmus test.

I’m not denying it may have happened, but I’ve just not seen first-hand accounts of it. I’m pretty laid back about the YEC / ID / evolution/ Age of Earth topics myself and don’t care to argue about the particulars of any of it.

As a YEC, I sometimes see YEC (and the people who hold to the view) get mocked by other Christians online, in addition to atheists who mock YEC.

Over the last ten or more years, I have been attacked or criticized online (and a few times by phone or in person) by other Christians for things such as my prophecy views (i.e., being a Pre-Trib / dispensationalist), and for having clinical depression.

A couple of Christians at one site, who view themselves as apologists, told me that “real” Christians cannot have depression, or any sort of emotional or psychological issues, and so I must not be saved.

One large reason I feel alienated from most churches these days, aside from the reason or two I already gave, is that they continue to preach and behave as though America is still in a Brady Bunch television show re-run, where every one is married with a few kids.

If you are not married by 25 years old with a couple of kids (as used to be typical in America, until about 3 or 4 decades ago), most American churches have no use for you, you will not feel included, there is no place for you to serve, especially if you are a single woman who has no kids.

One of the few capacities most American churches will allow older (or even younger), unmarried- with-no-kids women to serve, is in the church nursery.

I have no desire to be around children or babies or do similar tasks that are considered by most American Christians as fitting for women, considered “maternal” or “nurturing” (such as volunteering at homeless shelters, which I have tried, but it didn’t fit me).

Almost all mainstream Christian blogs, magazines, and church sermons and activities at churches are for married people who have kids.

Many in the American population these days are not getting married at all (they are staying single. I believe current stats are something like nearly 50% of all people age 18 to 40 or 50 are never married), or people’s first marriage is not taking place until late 20s or longer, but most American churches act like every one is still getting married at 21 or 22 years old and immediately having a couple of kids.

If you are a Christian who is 30 or 40 years old and are married with a kid or two, you probably do not notice the amount of discrimination that happens against Christian people age 30+ who are still not married, and who don’t have children.

Almost every sermon at most American churches is about marriage, or uses marriage as an illustration for everything (like to compare God to a husband, Christ to a bride, etc.).

Or, most American churches/ preachers (in their sermons and teaching materials) talk about how to be a wonderful parent.

All the church announcements at most churches on their bulletins and from the pulpit are for “Father and son picnics,” “Marriage seminars,” “Mom and daughter quilting parties,” or “Family fried chicken dinner night,” and so on.

Constant emphasis on marriage ‘n’ kids, marriage ‘n’ kids, marriage ‘n’ kids.

If you’re over 30 and never been married/ never had a kid, you feel totally over looked and excluded from churches (even the televised church services are bad; TV preachers are always offering “how to spice up your marriage,” “raising up godly children” sermons, and similar crud).

As long as the American church continues to behave like everyone is (or has been) married (yes, it’s often assumed if you are 40 years old and show up alone at church that you were divorced at one point – even though you have never married), they are not welcoming environments for single people, and those who have never married, so we stay away.

I’ve also heard that widowed/ widowers of all ages feel ignored.

Most American churches choose to expend all their time, money and energy on (meeting the needs of and attracting):

– kids to teens
– 20-something people
– married people age 25 – 50

If you are not in one of those groups, churches don’t care about you, and you notice it, and you give up and stop going to church.

Warnock criticizes the Vatican for covering up sex abuse (and normally I’d say rightfully so) but hypocritically recommend’s the SBC’s “resources” on this issue without telling the reader of their despicable conduct in this area. — Nicholas

That’s because the Vatican is Antichrist Romish Popery, but SBC Is God’s Anointed Who Can Do No Wrong (Humbly, of course). Ever read the Landmark Baptists’ “Trail of Blood”?

Almost all mainstream Christian blogs, magazines, and church sermons and activities at churches are for married people who have kids. — Daisy

And Focusing on Their Families(TM)…

Many in the American population these days are not getting married at all (they are staying single. I believe current stats are something like nearly 50% of all people age 18 to 40 or 50 are never married), or people’s first marriage is not taking place until late 20s or longer, but most American churches act like every one is still getting married at 21 or 22 years old and immediately having a couple of kids. — Daisy

21 or 22? They waited THAT long? In some churches, you’re an Old Maid if you’re single at 19!!! Or not on your third kid by 22!!! No wonder the Christian divorce rate is so high if you’re marrying that young out of sheer desperation!!!

If you’re over 30 and never been married/ never had a kid, you feel totally over looked and excluded from churches (even the televised church services are bad; TV preachers are always offering “how to spice up your marriage,” “raising up godly children” sermons, and similar crud). — Daisy

There’s a now-defunct blog called “Onward, Forward, Toward” by someone who was (1) over 30, (2) never married, and (3) not rich as a megachurch pastor. He described church experiences where since he was 30 and single, he HAD to be a pedophile or perv. Period.

Oh, and “spicing up your marriage” now includes both ends of the alimentary canal and forcing your Christian Wifey to service you while she’s puking her guts out from morning sickness.

And “raising up godly children” includes twelve-inch glue sticks and quarter-inch plumbing supply lines, wielded so as not to leave marks at the slightest sign of hesitation in first-time obedience.

And it’s not just “never had a kid”, it’s “not having a kid for every year of your Christian marriage”, and all of them have to be homeschooled from birth.

BTW all, I just bumped into another person hurt by the SGM machine today. Thankfully, my friend developed a bad feeling about their control issues pretty early on. When they found out my friend was a professional counselor, things got pretty ugly, and that was the end of it. Thanks to reading here, I was able to confirm for my friend that SGM does indeed have serious control issues (described the lawsuit and their determination to keep everything hidden).

Looking For You wrote, I’m sorry that this has been your experience.

Thank you for the sympathy, and for even acknowledging it happens.

I’ve discussed this issue before at other blogs (not always Christian ones), and it’s surprising how so many Christians are in denial about it, they act like I’m making it up, or they assure me that their church doesn’t treat singles the way I’m describing, so it must not be true, or doesn’t happen often.

In the last few years, I’ve read more blogs, online articles, and books about the topic, and there are many other, never- married Christian people over 30 who feel just as alienated by churches and many have stopped going to church.

Christian married couples who don’t have children feel like misfits at churches too.

Christians need to get more perceptive about stuff, even small things can hurt, like Mother’s Day, for instance – I personally don’t like it when churches honor mothers, because mine is dead. It’s another reminder she’s gone.

I’ve read online stories by Christian women who can’t have kids (they wanted to have one but kept having miscarriages), and they say how painful it is to sit through the service when the preacher asks all the mothers in the congregation to stand up so they can be acknowledged, or to step forward and receive a flower for each child they have.

I’m not saying churches need to completely do away with things such as Mother’s Day ceremonies or honoring motherhood, but they might want to skip a year or two.

At the very least, they might want to be very sensitive in how they go about it, to mention something like, “we know some women here today have chosen not to have kids; that is fine; some of you cannot have children due to medical issues, some of you have lost children; our prayers go with you,” -etc. etc.

Daisy, relate to most things you say. But I’m pretty clueless what a Pre-Trib / dispensationalist is, so I’ve one less thing to argue about with folks.

I remember sharing similar thoughts about relationships with a single friend who was in her 50’s. I was around 20 years younger. She said, ‘it gets better ! By the time you are in your 50’s your married friends’ children have left home and they’re getting ready to re-establish friendships again…’ Yeah right. I said I wasn’t prepared to wait until then !

“But I’m pretty clueless what a Pre-Trib / dispensationalist is, so I’ve one less thing to argue about with folks.”

Ha Ha! I have never understood the intense focus of escatology with some groups. The whole “Left Behind” craze left me speechless. The books were written on a 6th grade level and romanticized end times with the hero’s working for the anti Christ. Sheesh!. I feel same way for the amills who claim that Satan has been bound up.(Fits the determinist god filter)

I hardly see the point in arguing about any of it. Discussing it is fine. It is almost like discussing translations! Have you ever met a KJO person?

Daisy, I can relate to what you’re saying and I just want you to know that there are people who can really sympathise. The church I went to was quite good for singles and didn’t seem to over-emphasise family stuff too much, at least from my perspective (although I have no idea whether other people felt differently). One of the pastors, however, was a whole other story.

One night, me and my flatmate (who also went to the church) got into a discussion about kids and I said I didn’t want any. I was 21, at university, I didn’t have a boyfriend, and my experiences of looking after other people’s children had, frankly, left me shell-shocked. I could hardly believe that anyone would actually CHOOSE to be responsible for these tiny little screaming people who seemed intent on injuring themselves. To my flatmate this was quite shocking because she had no real interest in education or a career but desperately wanted to get married and become a mother to at least 4 kids ASAP. She asked why I didn’t want kids and I said ‘oh, you know, varicose veins, incontinence…’. Yes, it was a flippant, silly answer, but I only gave it because I knew that she was unlikely to understand or accept any answer to the question ‘why don’t you want kids?’ no matter how thoughtful, practical and sincere. I was sure she knew I was just joking around because she let the matter drop and we went on to talk about something else.

Anyway, not long after that conversation I had this pastor approach me during a social event and tell me that he had found out that I didn’t want kids, and asked me why not. I should have told him politely that it was none of his business but we ended up having a discussion about it. A while later he approached me and told me that on the basis of me not wanting kids, he thought I’d benefit from reading this book, which he then handed to me. I read a few chapters and discovered that it was about the emotional problems that can stem from being abused as a child. Even now I can remember the rage that welled up in me when I realised that this man who barely spoke to me had ‘diagnosed’ me with ‘co-dependency’ as a by-product of childhood abuse, based on a solitary piece of gossip my flatmate had passed on. I could not believe anyone could be so nosy and rude and presumptuous. Even worse, for a few months after that I had my flatmate and this pastor approach me at random times, look at me sympathetically and say ‘So have you thought any more about having kids? Do you want them now?’. I considered leaving the church but instead the next time I was able to have a conversation with the pastor in question I just made it clear that he had been totally out of line. He was the kind of action-not-words guy who would act impulsively and speak before thinking, and as a result couldn’t help putting his foot in it quite often. And he I think knew he had this habit, so he was willing to apologise. But the whole thing was one of my worst church experiences.

You said you find children irritating, Daisy. I never understood why so many people think you HAVE to like kids and if you don’t there’s something wrong with you. Children are not automatically likeable at all. They are extremely noisy, yet you can’t have a decent conversation with them. They make a mess with food wherever they go, yet they are always hungry. They can’t be reasoned with because they have no concept of ‘tomorrow’ or ‘later’. To them, delayed gratification is no gratification. And yet people insist that if you’re a woman who doesn’t have this vague, undirected maternal feeling swilling around inside of you ready to lavish on a child whenever it comes into your line of vision, there is something wrong with you.

The truth is, even a lot of great parents don’t even particularly like any kids other than their own. The whole ‘there’s something wrong with you if you don’t like kids’ thing is a myth.

Ironically I just checked my email and read a bulletin sent out by a church I’ve attended a few times:

“Singleness, relationships and sex are such important subjects and as a church we want to equip people with truth based on what the Bible has to say about these subjects. With that in mind, we’re running a seminar when Pete will be sharing on these subjects, so whether you’re single, dating or divorced, we would love to see you there. There will also be opportunity for Q & A as well as fun afterwards with games, speed dating, music and food for sale in the cafe.”

Sounds like this church at least perhaps have caught on to the existence of dissatisfaction among non-married people(funnily enough it’s the same church that was host to Mark Driscoll and the OralSexgate incident).

Hey Daisy, nice to have you here…yeah, churches can be pretty weird places for singles, I didn’t get married until I was 36, but I had the fortune to go to a church that isn’t as weird as many, and I fit into some other categories – Youth Worker with the teenagers, long -term ill health (I had what I think Americans know as Imune Deficient Chronic Fatigue Syndrome for 22 years)so people could relate to me in other ways. I also ‘may’ (ha ha) be quite sharp tongued about people going on about those who aren’t married, I turned down a non-christian guy I very much wanted to marry in my early/mid 20’s (he just kept telling me he still wanted to marry me…I had to say no for 4 years…no easy thing)because I didn’t think it was compatible with being a christian. So, being single was a deliberate part of following Christ for me, at huge cost (for him as well as me)…many people fail to understand that for many singles that is the case.
And now I’m 44 & married without kids…& not intending to have any. I’m only just getting my health back & I can’t face being that tired again – ever. I see how my incredibly healthy/younger relatives & friends struggle with having young children, & for me I can’t go there. I probably would have if I’d always been healthy, so I have missed out big time due to illness. Again, if anyone gives me a hard time about any of this I am quite likely to have a little word about it rally being none of other people’s business, I have become a little bit straightforward like that in my old age…not offensively, just assertively.
I also used to joke with my single friends who were fed up of being asked about their love lives that they should ask how the marriages were of those married people harassing them…:)

Hi All – And thank you so much for All who comment here.

This Blog is really special. I so appreciate the commenters and the freedom to tell their stories.
The freedom to agree and dis-agree – The freedom to warn, The freedom to ask for prayer.
My heart breaks for many – And my heart rejoices with many.

I just enjoy reading, and learning from, the varied backgrounds that comment here. 🙂

1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,
every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue,
hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

It is a joy to see this scripture come alive.
Where all can, and are expected to, participate.

Seems to me it is “The Body of Christ” in action –
Where every joint supplies. And The Body edifies itself in “LOVE.”

But speaking the truth in “LOVE,” may grow up into him in all things,
which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together
**and compacted by that which every joint supplieth,**
according to the effectual working in the measure of every part,
**maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.**
Eph 4:14-16

EAGLE!!! HA – I should have figured out after the title, but nooooooooo, I kept reading and then finally I looked at the “news source”. You know, the sad thing is there is some truth to that article among fundies.

Hi Daisy, I can relate to what you are saying. I noticed how my own life changed after my wife left me, when I did receive sympathy and a lot of help from a few Christian people but suspicion or what I regarded frankly as silly ignorant comments from others.

I’ve also never strongly felt the child-raising urge. This can be an issue for older singles when they meet single parents – are we really prepared to go into a relationship with children involved, having not had any prior experience?

The thing about singleness being a sin is so nutty and unbiblical as to be hardly worth commenting on. Neither state is to be esteemed above the other.

Daisy, while there are a range of views on here on different subjects such as creation and dispensationalism, I hope you will feel welcomed by everyone. Sometimes the saloon gets a bit rowdy, but that’s when Ma Dee or Ma Deb start firing their pistols into the ceiling! 🙂 (As they should…)

I’ve read online stories by Christian women who can’t have kids (they wanted to have one but kept having miscarriages), and they say how painful it is to sit through the service when the preacher asks all the mothers in the congregation to stand up so they can be acknowledged, or to step forward and receive a flower for each child they have. — Daisy

Daisy, Daisy, you’re giving me way too much to work with. Especially when something you throw out causes a random-association cascade in my ex-kid-genius brain.

Ever wonder whether churches like that should get hold of the molds and dies for these and start passing them out instead of flowers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_of_Honor_of_the_German_Mother (GODWIN’S LAW WARNING)

HUG, Finally enough time has passed we are starting to see the eharmony type marriages breaking up or on the rocks.

As for being treated as if I were a predator of some kind (being single), to the best of my knowledge, that’s never happened to me.

Some fundagelical/charismatic circles are better than others re. this, and re. some other issues, but in a very general and vague way. I think the vagueness is there because they just sail blithely on, assuming that their State in Live (married) should be everyone’s state in life, and something all people automatically aspire to.

so… that leaves out widows and widowers, as well as those who are divorced + everyone else who has never been married (straight and gay).

Eagle – fwiw, I belong to the same Lutheran synod (ELCA) that Chaplain Mike has joined. Likely one of the reasons he’s having to pursue a lot of education there prior to being ordained has to do with the synod’s emphasis on actual pastoral work (you know, the kinds of things good hospital chaplains do, but expanded to cover an entire congregation).

Beakerj – I’m so glad to hear that you were treated with compassion re. your CFS diagnosis and its limitations.

Overall, I have not been nearly as fortunate – in church (and sometimes, other) – circles when I have told people about *my* diagnosis. In fact, I’ve run into brick walls, including a so-called “pastor” refusing to believe that I had it, which progressed to an accusation of my having gotten Social Security disability benefits on false grounds.

I first joined a church at 18 and was married at 24, so I spent 6 years as a single church-member. I certainly noted that babysitting was assumed to be work for “singles”. And in one of the sillier manifestations of The Pastor Has A Vision For Everyone, the entire non-married over-18 population of a church I was in once was required to join a “youth group”, despite the huge age-range involved (some folk were nearly 30). In one really instructive episode, during the phase when it was referred to as “the singles group”, one of us invited a non-christian friend along and his answer was “it’s OK – I’m spoken for”. To the church, a “singles group” was a kind of dustbin housegroup in which to dump everyone who wasn’t married and therefore had no responsibilities and infinite time to doorknock and evangelise. To everyone else, of course, it was a group for people who were looking for Someone.

Fortunately, that particular “singles group” died the death after a couple of months.

Eagle – I’m not talking about fads or crazes. I was raised Lutheran.

I have found that good ELCA churches have been not only receptive and welcoming, but “safe” for me, ever since I got booted from That Church 10 years ago.

It’s *not* the fact that Lutheran churches are liturgical; it’s the *theology* AND practical approach to human existence, questions of suffering, God’s goodness, etc. + the emphasis on ministers doing actual pastoral work – y’know, being there for the people and helping with their needs.

ikwym about RC exclusivism; some Lutheran synods – like the MO Synod and Wisc. Synod – are totally “closed communion.” (They will not knowingly serve communion to someone from my synod, in the stricter MO Synod churches, anyway.) I think closed communion is ridiculous and back in my early 70s, charismatic renewal days, knew a fair number of Catholic priests who felt they could not turn away anyone who confessed Christ… in other words, when they were celebrating Mass, people like me were welcome to take communion.

Rome had a fit about guys like that, but they couldn’t stop them, either.

Back to the main point: I have yet to be in an evangelical church – unless we’re talking Low Church Anglican – that is not tied to perfectionistic standards and rules governing behavior.

However… you might want to investigate some United Methodist churches. Not sure what the spread (liberal to conservative) is like in the D.C. area, but around here, there are some good churches/ministers. You might feel more comfortable in their environment, where the service has some structure but isn’t liturgical.

Also, rejecting all liturgical churches on the basis of experience with only one of them is – totally imo – a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but hey – you need to do what you need to do, and I respect that.

I wonder, though, if face-to-face convos with people might be better in terms of asking questions than simply sending emails after visiting?

Just my thoughts, to take or leave… absolutely no pressure intended!

Note: I don’t know that it’s about crazes or fads so much as it is about looking for balance. (In my case, anyway.)

Numo,

I agree with Dee on Fri Nov 23, 2012 at 09:15 AM.
They wouldn’t know what human greatness is if it bit em’ in the ass.
It’s their loss if they choose to remain blinded by dogma.

numo, you said what I was going to say about theology being what is important, not liturgy. Liturgy is just a good way of keeping the church service from becoming a show. Also, I wasn’t aware that there was a “Lutheran craze.”

Regarding close communion, the LCMS has pulpit fellowship with the following Lutheran communions: http://www.lcms.org/page.aspx?pid=1372

The reason that LCMS doesn’t have pulpit fellowship with the ELCA is because theological liberalism rules the day there. There are thelogically conservative churches left in it, but they are the exception rather than the rule. It was the top leaders of ELCA who voted to allow the ordination of practicing homosexuals. The ELCA would have never gotten to that point if it and its predecessor denominations hadn’t tolerated seminary professors, ordained ministers, and denominational leaders who denied the central tenets of the Christian faith (virgin birth, miracles, subsitutionary atonement, bodily resurrection, and inspiration and infallibility of Scripture.) The history is pretty much the same with all the liberal mainline denominations.

The LCMS does have a procedure for administering Communion to individuals who are not memebers of churches in communion with the LCMS. If you told them you were an orthodox believer from an orthodox church in the ELCA, you could probably receive communion in an LCMS church.

The WELS is a different story. It is they who refuse to be in fellowship with the LCMS over trivial reasons. I hate to use the term “fundamentalistic” to describe any Lutheran group, but if there are any Lutherans (besides the pietists) that it could legitimately refer to, it would be the WELS. That said, I have great respect for WELS, as well as NALC, LCMC, and any conservative churches left in the ELCA.

If you told them you were an orthodox believer from an orthodox church in the ELCA, you could probably receive communion in an LCMS church.

OK, why should this even be necessary?! If a person believes in Christ and what’s contained in the Apostles and Nicene Creeds, there is – imo – absolutely no problem with them receiving communion.

Pastors aren’t meant to be cops, checking the spiritual equivalent of drivers’ licenses. They are there to care for the congregation, not play Big Enforcer.

Just my opinion… (goes for all churches, not just Lutheran!)

Re. the WELS, they are extremely fundamentalist, in their own Lutheran-tinged way. I would not wish to be involved with a WELS church, as I know I would not fit there.

Nicholas – 15 years ago, I was totally against the idea of gay people being ordained.

Now, I am pro-ordination and recognition for LGBT people. The truth is, there have always been LGBT people in ministry (lay and ordained), and the vote was partly an apology for the poor treatment that many have received from the church (ELCA).

Also, the implementation of ordination (etc.) and pastoral ministry of LGBT is *totally* on a congregation-by-congregation basis. Individual congregations have the vote on that.

I am saddened – though not surprised – by the furor over this.

Daisy
Your postings were right on the mark.You have really studied this issue quite well.
Thanks you for your insights.

I’ve never attended a “singles” group (and I’m a single 20-something), but my experience looking in from the outside is that they seem to fall into two groups:

1. Groups made up entirely of college students and the recently graduated. These seem to have a very high turnover rate as pairing off and marriage happen pretty quickly.
2. Groups made up entirely of divorced and/or perpetually single 50s. To be honest the ones I’ve seen came off as a bit of a meat market – the goal was most definitely to encourage “coupling.” I got roped into attending a “singles’ dance” at a local studio with one of these groups once and there was definitely a “trolling” atmosphere. I don’t mean that to be offensive and really do wish I’d had a better experience.

So yes, I think the idea of a singles’ group that ISN’T about marrying people off would be very foreign to most churches. It doesn’t seem to occur to them that some people (esp. in the 50-something group) might not want to get married.

I only skimmed the comments, but wanted to chime in.

David was 33 and I was 29 when we met and married. We met online back when no one knew anyone who had met someone online. (This was in 1996 when most businesses didn’t even have websites yet.) And, ironically enough, we met through the Focus on the Family section on America Online.

I always thought when I married, I would fit in at church. But by the time I got married, everyone our age already had children and we didn’t. So we didn’t fit in.

I always thought when I had children, I would fit in at church. But by the time we were blessed with a child, we were 43 and 39. Now we had a child, but everyone our age had children in middle school and up. So we didn’t fit in.

I don’t know what the answer is. I don’t even know how many people really feel like they fit in at their church. I know I’ve had more success trying to develop friendships with people who are in completely different life stages than myself.

Re: the lack of good men out there… I prayed for a loooong time. I dated very little. But God kept David hidden out there for me. I’m not saying that everyone who wants to be married will be married. But there ARE good men out there. No, David was not exactly the man I thought I would marry. But GOD knew what I needed and He brought us together.

I do think there are many quality men (and women) out there, but women have such unrealistic expectations that they don’t realize the decent man with a good heart is a terrific blessing.

I’m always saddened when I read women who think there are no good men out there. There are. And I think any woman who wants to be married and feels called to continue to pray about it should be praying passionately for her future husband’s purity and spiritual health.

In many ways, I think like a none-affiliated and had the same experiences most of the non-churchgoers here describe. But one thing keeps me at church still: I actually love/like (not all teaching experiences are equal) teaching Sunday School to children, and it seems God made me pretty good at it.
There are truths children should learn about God. And I try, as far as I can, to be the non-hypocrite, the Christian who shows the love of Christ to the children…
But I probably go home right after SSchool and before the sermon (our Sunday school is before church) more often than any other Sunday School teacher in the church.

Judging from the “who I am” and “what I’m looking for” on the female dating-service sheets, a lot of the women would really be happier “married to Jesus” as a cloistered nun, with 24/7 prayer and devotions… And the “What I want” was so identical on them they could have been pre-printed: An Uber-Spiritual, Uber-Godly, Uber-Christian man so Edward Cullen Perfect that even Christ Himself couldn’t have measured up.-HUG

HUG, I was like those women. Try to get it from this angle: Christian women are told they should SUBMIT in everything in marriage. The less perfect a man is, the scarier that idea, for obvious reasons. Submitting to Jesus is good because He knows better than I, love me more than I love myself, and I already know what He commands. He’s not gonna give any selfish orders in an audible voice next week.
They are also told he should be “the spiritual leader” (whatever that means). They thus look for a man who is more spiritual than they are. http://biblicalpersonhood.wordpress.com/2012/08/08/what-the-man-should-be-the-spiritual-leader-did-to-me/

Retha – Yep!

I think that all the ranting on “unequally yoked” put paid to my being able to believe that I could meet a good man outside of very strict evangelical/charismatic circles.

Now… non-evangelical churches don’t harp on that text. They just don’t, though obviously, “mixed” marriages were regarded as problematic by many and might still be.

I am going to be honest here: I would FAR rather marry a Jewish or Buddhist (etc. etc.) man who is decent, kind, thoughtful and respectful of me than being tied to a so-called “Christian” who can spout chapter and verse but wants to be some sort of monarch/prophet or who simply blows off everything he claims – publicly – to believe.

Numo- interesting that you mention “unequally yoked.” What is more unequally yoked than one partner having all the say?

(Comps will say no, it is more like 51%/ 49% of the say, but where is the difference when two people decide what to do?)

“Infected with the double viruses of courtship-purity and complementarianism”. LOL! Wow, that really speaks to my daughter’s experiences. I don’t have time to tell our complete story now, but I will write it and send it to Dee And Deb. I’m afraid that the full story will amount to gossip. But I can fully relate to the stories I find here of abuse and hypocrisy.

Wow – so much meat in all the comments. Looking – I can’t imagine the pain and my heart goes out to you. And Deb, praying for your family and that other family. It seems like crazy things happen around the holidays.

Daisy and Sophie – I am right with you. I am in my early 50’s and have never been married. I wanted to marry once, but that passed, and I never really wanted children. But I work with children and enjoy it. God has truly made all of us different.

I had a generally good experience in a singles group after I left CLC, but after that, I never again went. When you hit a certain age, unless you make good friends who are encouraging you spiritually and emotionally, things can get really unhealthy really fast. I truly agree that the church doesn’t know what to do with all of us, although in the D.C. area there are more of us than in other parts of the country. But still there’s no church that’s really figured it out, especially for older folks, and it seems like programs often fade away or go downhill pretty quickly.

Sophie – Kids need so much more than what their parents can give them. They need aunts, uncles, older brothers and sisters, grandparents, teachers (good ones, that is) and other adults who work with them in education and in creative endeavors.

Treasure your niece and the time you get to spend with her. You can both enrich each other’s lives in ways that are truly invaluable (too valuable to be quantified/qualified).

I am, sadly, unable to be with my great-nieces and great-nephews due to serious family problems, and I miss them greatly.

Numo–I recently found an old treasure at a used book store. It is an old “red book” Lutheran hymnal, from Concordia, from the 1940’s.

The collects in it are a wonderful source. Don’t have to follow anybody’s interpretation of the scripture, but just one a day really is wonderful.

And yes, a good lectionary reading plan can be a help, but they can also be pretty daunting as they can be a lot of reading.

When my recovery from fundamentalism was at that stage, just the gospel portion was quite enough, sanitized from interpretations such as study Bibles, etc.

Although I admit, I do love the notes in the Wesleyan and LCMS Bibles, as well as ELCA’s. Don’t agree with every jot and tittle, but I’ve come to love finding what I disagree with and thinking about WHY I disagree.

But mostly I like to just experience God by reading a bit of His Word and spending time with Him.

Hang in there. There is life after legalism. When the Lord renewed my faith I was surprised to find myself suddenly again thirsty for prayer and Bible reading.

Not as worshipping the quiet time, but now it is just time with Him and I cherish it.

Just as my husband would find it strange for me to be in love with him but avoid him, I would find it strange to believe I love the Lord but never want to talk to Him or let Him talk to me.

Sophie, A very good time to give up on it all, you’ll feel better…at least I did.

Off topic – Does the “sinful” nature pass down via genetics? (ues, there’s a second question coming…)

Oh and Happy Thanksgiving to all!

linda – you found a treasure! I loved the “red book” but it’s almost impossible to find a copy these days.

As for reading *everything* in the lectionary every day, I’d be more than happy to read the Gospel passages and the collect.

Sophie – otoh, you could be like me and be either distracted or falling asleep. I wonder if you’ve checked with a doc about your attention span? (Not meant to make you feel bad; just a thought I had…)

Susan aka Velvet Voice,

Gossip is by definition casual conversation involving unconfirmed reports about someone. If you lived it / directly experienced it, it is not gossip.

If you’re concerned that the telling of your story implicates other people without the having an opportunity to speak for themselves, make the other parties involved anonymous.

If you’re concerned that by telling your story you walk a fine line of being sensational for its own sake, consider that manipulative, controlling behavior of church leaders is abusive and ruins people for years and it needs to come to light. Bringing it into the light of day can be healing and freeing and brings opportunity for words of wisdom born from experience.

At times this can be quite smothering and almost, in a weirdly backwards kind of way, aggressive. I remember this exchange from a prayer meeting in my student days just before the summer exam season: — Nick Bulbeck

That’s as bad as the one therapist I had, oh, 20-odd years ago who KNEW I was homosexual and in denial. At which point, Conspiracy Theory Logic came into effect where any evidence against his theory was PROOF of his theory. And the more I said I wasn’t, the more In Denial I had to be. Bad Craziness.

Also, let me just add that, as a single Christian 20-something who hasn’t yet begun dating – I’m honestly scared of the Christian dating scene. Between the courtship-purity movement and the heavy-handed complementarianism currently making the rounds, I’m afraid that any guy I’d meet who was committed enough to label himself “Christian” is going to be pre-infected with one of these dangerous theological viruses. — Hester

It ain’t just the men, Hester. The whole Christian Dating scene is Bad Craziness.

Aside: Can somebody tell me WHY all these Christian singles groups and Christian dating services can only think of organizing “Dances” for their large-scale mixers? I had my fill of “Dances” in High School.

Shortly after I moved to where I now live, I went one night to a bible study at a local Church of the Brethren (anabaptist, PA Dutch) and there was a youngish man (quite good-looking) who went on and on and ON about “how women should behave” vs. how men were supposed to act + general spouting off about gender roles. — Numo

My writing partner (the burned-out preacher-man) is Church of the Brethren (Anabaptist, PA Dutch). There is a LOT of weirdness in “Anabaptist, PA Dutch”.

HUG, I was like those women. Try to get it from this angle: Christian women are told they should SUBMIT in everything in marriage. The less perfect a man is, the scarier that idea, for obvious reasons. Submitting to Jesus is good because He knows better than I, love me more than I love myself, and I already know what He commands. He’s not gonna give any selfish orders in an audible voice next week.
They are also told he should be “the spiritual leader” (whatever that means). They thus look for a man who is more spiritual than they are. — Retha

All I am sure of, Retha, is that there is NO WAY I would want to be “Equally Yoked(TM)” with a woman like that. When I was growing up as a kid genius, Absolute Utter Perfection was the MINIMUM expected of me, and it almost killed me. (No matter how much I accomplished, it was NEVER enough; no matter how perfectly I did it, it was NEVER good enough.) NO WAY am I ever going back to that.

… in the quiet place where I’ve managed to quietly quiet my mind into quietness etc etc.

LOLZ – so true, Nick! 😉

HUG – as I’ve said before (and probably don’t need to repeat), not all PA Dutch/German people are emotional/psychological wrecks.

yes, the things you and your writing partner – and Looking For You – have talked about are all true, real and valid. But that doesn’t mean that *everyone* who comes from that cultural matrix is automatically screwed up.

Not saying that you said that, but I think it’s important to see that it’s so easy for any of us to create and perpetuate … well, not sure how to put this: extreme views, or maybe stereotypes?

We already have far too many of those in our society as it is.

Tim Bayly sounds like one of those blame-the-victim IFB fundamentalists. But he’s PCA! He’s certainly a fundy, though.

Here is a critical article on Tim Bayly: http://www.poohsthink.com/the-new-enlightenment-part-10-the-presbyterian-patriarch-tim-bayly/

The author, Michael Metzler, is an atheist but was once a member of Doug Wilson’s Christ Church in Moscow Idaho, I believe.

“Here is a critical article on Tim Bayly: http://www.poohsthink.com/the-new-enlightenment-part-10-the-presbyterian-patriarch-tim-bayly/

The author, Michael Metzler, is an atheist but was once a member of Doug Wilson’s Christ Church in Moscow Idaho, I believe.”

I used to read his blog. he was at one time being mentored by Doug Wilson. Going to school there. He became disillusioned and started writing a blog about it using the “kirk” as his them because of Wilson’s love of all things “kirk” and Scottish. This was way back in 06 or 07, I think.
i am glad to see he kept the blog up.

Sheesh! Another former Reformed former believer.

Numo – your post a couple of comments back (at 1:25pm>/a>).

And you’re absolutely right in saying that rejecting the “quiet time Rule” is not rejecting personal prayer. It’s not even rejecting the quiet time – just the formula.

And I even managed to mis-spell the word “one” in my second post. I’m doing well this morning.

Numo–I will watch for a red book for you, and if I can track one down reasonably priced, I will try to see if dee and deb can help me send it to them to get it to you.

In the mean time, I bet the good folks at St John’s Lutheran in Killdeer ND might be able to help you find one. I think Vang still uses theirs, but there might be one available.

My natural reaction to the Bayley Brothers is rage, closely followed by despair. They can’t even manage ordinary courtesy, let alone christian love.