"The Bible is a book that has been read more and examined less than any book that ever existed." –Thomas Paine
Oh good night! The “really saved” brigade is out, proclaiming that Rachel Held Evans, in her books and her blog musings, is guilty of heretical ravings. Some even claim that she is not a Christian and will be judged by God! (Did you not know that there are people on earth that know God's inner thoughts? In some circles that might be considered borderline mental illness.) Of particular concern is her current book, A Year of Biblical Womanhood. This book is garnering the interest of major news outlets, and, as such, deserves intelligent conversation that goes beyond “stomping feet.” I believe her critics and, to some extent, Rachel Held Evans herself, are missing out on a golden opportunity.
Denny Burk weighed in with a negative review here. Please read the comments. He does get pushback.
Of course, The Gospel Coalition weighed in and linked here to a negative review of the book by a woman on the Desiring God site.
Note to The Gospel Coalition: We are in Day 7 of silence on the filed lawsuit against one of your founders, CJ Mahaney. I guess child sex abuse takes a back seat to an “uppity” woman, hmm?
Roger Olson wrote a positive review of the book here.
I have watched her interviews, read her blog, and previewed some marketing videos. Please watch Evans' seven minute MSNBC interview and her two, one-minute videos promoting the book.
My review is not about the book, which I will read on an upcoming vacation. Instead, I want to discuss an underlying issue that I think many have missed no matter one’s opinion of the book.
Simply stated: The Old Testament is hard to understand for almost everybody except John Piper and some first year seminary students at SBTS. Even Bible studies that purport to examine the “entire” Bible fail miserably in dealing with what I call the “please God, don't let them ask me about that verse" verses.
Through the years, I have listened and watched as Christians attempt to explain the Old Testament to inquirers. It goes something like this. ”That was the Old Covenant that pointed us to our sins and our need for forgiveness. No one follows that anymore. Jesus took care of it. Let’s go to the book of John.”
But, we do practice some OT commands in some churches:
- Tithing
- Moses model leadership
- Limited roles for women in the church
In other words, we still accept these things but attempt to put a New Testament spin on it. Most average Christians are visibly uncomfortable when confronted with issues such as:
- God’s command to wipe out certain people groups
- The numbers of wives and concubines of Jewish leaders
- The unusual rules in Deuteronomy, Numbers, and Leviticus
When questioned on specific verses by outsiders, many run the other way. They excuse their inability to speak to the issue raised by condemning the questioner. “They don’t really want to know about God, they just want to criticize us. Don’t throw your pearls before swine.”
So, many stay inside their safe little churches and condemn atheists and agnostics for asking the hard questions. However, within those safe enclaves, strange theories abound and are tolerated. “If I can find it, I can claim it!” I have read those proclaiming the wonders of “The Leviticus Diet” and those selling the therapeutic oils of the Old Testament.” Here and here
Let’s face it. Many of the stories, commands, and the lifestyles of the Old Testament can be difficult to understand and even harder to explain to those who are outside of the faith. For example, Christians condemn the polygamy of the early Mormons. Yet, David had multiple wives and concubines. The usual throw away Christian answer is that God allowed it due to David’s “hardness of heart.” The easy retort is, “So, why not now? I know lots of people who are hard in their hearts.” Of course, there are other ways to approach these questions but many Christians can't even get to first base.
Let’s take a look at a few rules of the OT from the NIV at Bible Gateway.
Leviticus 19:27, “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.
Leviticus 21:17-23 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary.
Leviticus 12:1-5 Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.
It is important for us to remember that the Israelites were living under a theocracy. God functioned as the ancient FDA, CDC, police force, refuse management, etc.
So some of the rules make sense. The Israelites could not eat shellfish because shellfish are bottom dwellers and eat anything that sinks to the bottom of their habitat – including human waste. Such a rule would protect the Israelites from an E Coli gastroenteritis which can be fatal for the young and the elderly.
Added at 4:50PM "And this begs the obvious question. What makes someone pure? I can imagine that all of those priests, etc bringing the offering all had their impurities hiding under the surface. So, is God interested in only the "superficial?" Who is more pure: a dwarf or a priest who is lusting after HIldah?"
Other rules are not so easy to explain, especially the command that those with birth defects were prohibited from bringing food offerings to God. The flip answer about "purity" pales beside the concern for compassion of the person with a birth defect. Of course, I could take the John Piper approach and call anyone who doesn't like it a sinner. That takes care of that, doesn't it?
Please feel free to share with all of us your particular “weird” law of the Old Testament. Try to explain why you think that law was instituted. Here is an example of what I mean
Leviticus 19:19
“‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.”
(Perhaps due to the sterility issue?)“‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.”
(Bad for the nutrients in the soil, one attracts vermin from which the other did not have immunity?)“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.”
(Possible shrinkage making the item too small and misshapen, rendering it useless. Difficult if resources are scarce?)
My good friend, Eagle, and I have had frequent conversations in which I have told him that I do not have answers for all of the verses in the Bible. I do, however, believe that the Scriptures give me the single best narrative that explains the world around me.
So, here is my concern for everyone in this conflict. I do not believe that Christians have done a great job of explaining the Old Testament and why we pick and choose what we will follow. I also do not think Evans’ explanation of “just following Jesus” immunizes her either, although I understand her sentiments. We are given the whole Bible and cannot cut out the inconvenient parts.
We (all of us, not just the theologians) must deal with the inherent difficulties in parts of the Scripture. We need to be able to communicate these struggles to a questioning world. I am most frustrated that this conflict has boiled down to critics claiming heresy instead of kindly explaining their understanding of the issues to those who are listening. I think Evans could ramp it up a bit as well. For example, she could explain how Jesus fulfilled the law and how the dietary restrictions were lifted in the New Testament.
I think everyone should read Evans' book and wrestle with the issues she raises. I also think that her critics, especially all the self-proclaimed “gospelly correct” leaders, need to look at themselves and figure out how they can do a much, much better job in helping a watching world, along with people in the churches, to better understand the Old Testament laws and their relationship to the New Testament. For example,they could explain why God declared a woman, during her period, unclean for 12 days. That would be much more interesting than the usual ho-hum "look at the heretic" response.
Right now, it looks as if Evans' critics are more concerned about "proving" her heresy as opposed to taking this unique opportunity to explain the Old Testament to a confused world. We sure shoot our own, don't we? Oh yeah, "they" don't think she is one of our own.
Lydia's Corner: Leviticus 11:1-12:8 Mark 5:21-43 Psalm 38:1-22 Proverbs 10:8-9
One of the reasons I decided to go to seminary was to learn the answers to questions like those RHE raises. We who are believers know too little about our sacred book.
Juniper
Good for you. Let me know what you learn about these verses.
“The Old Testament is hard to understand for almost everybody except John Piper and some first year seminary students at SBTS. ”
Great post and fabulous line!
Here is another link you can add to the pile if you like, Dee. This is from Fred Butler with whom I have had a number of run-ins. My former pastor contacted Fred during my lawsuit and Fred bent his ear towards him. He has around 5 posts on “survivor blogs”, dismissing them as complaint blogs. The guy has not read Rachel’s book, yet has jumped on the critical bandwagon. Check out his comments. He is a Bible teacher at Grace Community (John MacArthur’s church), graduate of Master’s College, and a long-time employee of Grace to You.
Dee – thank you! From the bottom of my doubting heart, thank you!
No More Perfect
Never forget the words of the father who wanted Jesus to heal his son: “Lord, I believe. Forgive my unbelief.” That is a daily prayer of mine. Those who doubt are more honest than everyone else who doubt and lie about it.
This is a very powerful post ! I’m still deciding if I want to read the book or not.
I’m interested in the ‘work arounds’ that people use regarding Old Testament laws.
Check out Kate Humble arriving at the hotel during Shabbat and the explanation of how to stay, especially how to use the ‘Shabbat lift’ (starts at 17 minutes) and the ‘Shabbat coffee machine’:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unpyZNsphBA
I just object to the smug tone of posts like that that assume they are soooooo right, & everyone else is basically a deluded godless heathen. Some of those commenters are so graceless (one in particular, whose posts I find extremely condescending) that I just had to push back a little….
Oh, & now you’ll know my real name…*waves*
I would also add to the list of OT followings Christians have adopted: the priesthood. I do agree that Protestants don’t have a true priesthood (although Anglicans do call their pastors “priest” in discourse quite interchangeably with Reverend). However, I have never felt the Reformation gave the Catholic practice of Priesthood the proper boot. They maintained hierarchies (just erased the Papal infallibility) and act like the church leaders are more gifted to hear from God than everyone else – in direct contradiction to early teachings on the priesthood of all believers.
So far I’ve gotten through comparisons between Israel and through ANE. I suspect answering the questions re blood and uncleanness will require trips to the library looking at Talmudic writing.
I read the review at Desiring God. Its pretty shallow mostly complaining that RHE doesn’t talk about the gospel enough. It mentions the issues but doesn’t really engage them. And of course there’s a verse from the bible thrown on to give it authenticity.
Yes, the reaction to Rachel has been more telling than the content Rachel produced. I have read her blog for years now, and, although, I don’t entirely agree with everything she writes, she is a strong and popular writer, she raises some great points, and she openly shares her journey through the publishing world, and her own feelings about it. She is not terribly combative, she raises more questions than gives answers, she has become a strong voice for women in the church.
As her blog progressed, she went from more of a “this is how I feel about church/christian culture” to more hitting questions. One can see her discernment develop as she began researching her book on women. Her blog grew and grew. Her blog became more linked to. Her blog became stronger, wiser, it matured. As her faith matured, her love for the scripture began to shine through.
What I find so telling in the usual suspects (ie. Denny Burke’s) critique is, as well as being an ad hominem attack, it dredges up her older quotes from her first book (Evolving in Monkey town) and her earlier blog posts and takes them out of context to make her into a wishy-washy, luke-warm, half-hearted evangelical. But, her blog has grown in strength, wisdom and insight and so has her character. No longer is the unsure and struggling voice emerging from her first book. No longer is the struggle so pervasive in her writings. She has grown through her work. She has wrestled (and, as she puts it, she walks with a limp like Patriarch Jacob/Israel), she has come through, and for her, today, the dawn in breaking as the long dark night of the soul now shines in victory.
Dee,
Great post! It reminds me of those theological discussions we had before we began blogging. Looking forward to your review of Rachel Held Evans’ book.
Eagle,
Thanks for challenging The Gospel Coalition crowd. They have put CJ Mahaney on a pedestal. I wonder whether he will stay there…
I just added the following observation at 4:50pm. added at 4:50PM
“And this begs the obvious question. What makes someone pure? I can imagine that all of those priests, etc bringing the offering all had their impurities hiding under the surface. So, is God interested in only the “superficial?” Who is more pure: a dwarf or a priest who is lusting after HIldah?”
Oh, after seeing beakerj’s comment I decided to head over to the Denny Burke site and read some comments – whoa ! It’s rough play in the sandpit over there…
Classic upfront quote on the blog by a female commenter who nonetheless describes herself as a ‘repentant religious feminist’:
“I embrace the biblical term, Patriarchy”.
Ouch.
Dee- I think I remember being taught that all those ‘two kinds’ laws were to do with surrounding fertility cults who deliberately mixed two kinds of things as some way of increasing spiritual power…or something? Sound familiar to anyone?
What t’s me off is Denny Burke and other male commenters saying the most unkind things about RHE. From where I sit they are nothing but a bunch of bully’s.
Their brand of Christianity turns me off.
BeakerJ
Yeah, its the syncretism argument. The question is why God would choose specifically two things in nature to demonstrate this ? If the Bible is for all time, that does not make sense to us now. For example, would he condemn peanut butter and jelly sandwiches today? How about Mutt and Jeff (tall and short)? Black and white keys on the piano?
We also mix all sorts of things in with the faith today-Political parties comes to mind.How about the American flag next to the Christian flag? Confusing.
mot
Warning, my friend mot, Warning!!! Stay away from the repentant former feminist. She now calls herself a Reformed Lass. She is a lass like the bunny was sweet in Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
She will remove your manhood. She is one of the few who is no longer allowed to leave comments on Rachel Held Evans’ blog. And it is definitely not due to her highly intelligent arguments. She has a blog that no one reads or leaves comments. There is good reason for that. One of our dear readers (a man) tried to reason with her awhile back. He barely escaped being castrated.
In case you do not remember the segment from that wonderful movie link
Dee:
I watched the link. Thanks for warning me.
Dee, I suppose if you mixed peanut butter & jelly in order to create a pagan spiritually powerful sandwich then he might….I also wonder if this is where Reeses Peanut Butter Cups get their strange power from 🙂
And I knew I’d read something about the repentant feminist before, must’ve been here! She comes across as a really unpleasant mix of’ Disgusted from Tunbridge Wells’ & a nit- picky tutor with a child they’ve decided to dislike. Contrast Kristen (Kirsten?) Wordgazer whose words were gracious, wise & strangely nutritious.
Haven’t read Rachel’s book yet. I wonder if it’s similar to “The Year of Living Biblically” by that Jewish guy? Fun and interesting concept, if so.
Re: Old Testament . . . there are two books (in addition to the Bible, of course) that I think should be required reading for every Christian:
(1) “How God Became King” by NT Wright. He does a great job in helping the reader see the connections that Scripture’s original audience would have seen so clearly and quickly (i.e. ancient Near Eastern and Jewish concepts and ideas from the OT).
(2) “Epic of Eden” by Sandra Richter. She presents a really good overview of “biblical theology” for the layperson. I don’t agree with her views on the Church vs. Israel, but that doesn’t cancel out the wonderful job she does on bringing out the key themes of the OT and introduces the reader to the world of the OT.
As I said, these two are a great starting point for any Christian looking to get a broad overview of the OT and how the heck it connects with the NT. It really is amazing how the NT begins to make so much more sense after some good, quality study of the OT.
As far as the “difficult passages” of the OT, I’ve heard some pretty solid explanations from OT scholars, but I’m not aware of any resources that make this content readily accessible and digestible to a non-academia type. I’ll think about it and go through my own resources and see if I can come up with anything.
BeakerJ,
I live in CA, but have been to Tunbridge Wells many times with my in-laws — what’s the story behind ‘Disgusted from Tunbridge Wells’?
Mr. H
Thank you for these great resources!
BeakerJ
She is surprisingly disrespectful to men with whom she disagrees. I would think that she believes that she should be submissive and gentle with them since she will be serving them in eternity! I am praying that she does not discover this blog. You think Jimmy was bad…
BeakerJ
If any of you readers direct her to this blog, i will think of some way to pay you back and it will not be pretty.
Is Jimmy gone?
So, is God interested in only the “superficial?” Who is more pure: a dwarf or a priest who is lusting after HIldah?”
As I understand it, these laws were in Torah to distinguish the Jews from the surrounding tribes/peoples. A lot of primitive peoples look upon birth defects or certain deformities as having magical or spiritual significance, and surrounding tribal cults probably used dwarves, eunuchs, etc in their cult ceremonies. (We DO know some fertility cults used eunuchs for same-sex cult prostitution.) “For these are the things which the goyim do.”
For example, Christians condemn the polygamy of the early Mormons. Yet, David had multiple wives and concubines. The usual throw away Christian answer is that God allowed it due to David’s “hardness of heart.”
My retort is “Welcome to the world of Semitic Tribal Culture.”
God’s command to wipe out certain people groups
Including division of the pillage (including women):
“Welcome to the world of Bronze Age Semitic Tribal Warfare.”
Val –
Jimmy was temporarily banned. He wasn’t adhering to TWW’s prime directive.
Leviticus 19:19
“‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.”
(Perhaps due to the sterility issue?)
“‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.”
(Bad for the nutrients in the soil, one attracts vermin from which the other did not have immunity?)
“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.”
(Possible shrinkage making the item too small and misshapen, rendering it useless. Difficult if resources are scarce?)
The most disturbing version of Lev 19:19 was in the old Dake’s Annotated Bible I read in the Seventies. The marginal notes (of which there were more words than the KJV text in the center columns) hammered all the above examples as “The Principle of Segregation”, over and over and over. Segregation, Segregation, Segregation. Reading it in the Seventies, all I could think of that phrasing was George C Wallace: “SEGREGATION NOW, SEGREGATION FOREVER!!!!!!”
Val
He is on ice for a few weeks. Being one who believes in redemption, I might let him back for a trial period.
Y’all crack me up!
The post of Burk’s to which you link is not a review of the book, it is a reaction to her appearance on the Today show. Next time it would be nice if you could at least read the title of the post before you go rampaging through on your misguided and ill-informed mission to rid the world of Pipers and Burks and Mohlers and, ahem, women who agree with them.
Dee,
you needn’t fear the Bayly Boy’s lapdog. I tangled with her a few times years ago, and like all bullies, if you give her a taste of her own medicine she scurries away.
I actually pity her, that she would be so insecure in herself she needs to get her identity by being the pet of some patriarchs. She reminds me of a little dog, whining and performing little tricks to get treats. In her case, her tricks are lambasting those who disagree with the complementarian position, and labelling all women who believe that they are equal to men as feminazis.
Brave Lass? Not quite. Stubborn, Arrogant Lass? Minus the L…
Oh now I’m scared….but what makes you think she doesn’t already know about us Warty Watchers? I am prepared to woman the battlements however, should she start to comment. What you said about her attitude to some men is hilarious…maybe she needs to adopt a more ‘womanly’ tone? I can only imagine that if she ever really was a feminist she was an absolute ballbreaker, because even now you can tell she’s only pretending to be polite.
elastigirl: ‘….of Tunbridge Wells’ is a joke saying culled from newspaper letters pages, especially the Times, where someone middle class has gone on a total rant about something unimportant to most of the world. It’s a flag for cold propriety, being a pedant & having too much time on your hands 🙂 Tunbridge Wells is the kind of ‘nice’ affluent area that might breed such letter writers.
Kamilla
Darn. I had great hopes that you would not show up. So, I want you to be aware that this blog allows people in all stages of faith or non-faith to comment. It is our goal to show them love and respect while holding to our own Christian, evangelical faith. Please try hard to be sweet since, after all, you are a reformed former feminist.
I not only knew what Burk wrote but I commented over there as well and my comment was posted, albeit under another nickname. As for ill-informed, hmmmm…..
Aaaaaaaaaaaaargh. I’m going into hiding now Dee! Not really 🙂
Hi Kamilla- how are you today?
To our readers
Allow me to introduce you all to Kamilla-also known as the Reformed Lass. Might I suggest that since you will not win an argument with her, you state your opinions and let it go. If not, it will be a long and difficult night.
Too bad Jimmy is on ice. They would get along well.
Such an enormous shame that it’s now quarter to one in the morning here in the UK & I must go to sleep….
Sincerely though Kamilla, please be aware that whilst I find your commenting style difficult I wish you as the person behind it only well. I suspect you have an interesting story to tell behind the bluster.
“before you go rampaging through on your misguided and ill-informed mission to rid the world of Pipers and Burks and Mohlers and, ahem, women who agree with them.
Those are your words, Kamilla. I don’t believe the blog owners have the intention to “rid the world” of anyone, nor have I seen them write anything like that.
I think I’m going to ask my 22-yr old son to make his delicious kettle corn, put on my lounge wear, and watch the dialogue on WW tonight. This could be an exciting night.
I’m going out to dinner with hubby . . . he doesn’t know it yet, but I’m sure he’ll be happy! I’ll catch with y’all later 😉
You want to know what irritates me about the Calvinistas, patriarchs and fellow-travelers trying to push Rachel Held Evans outside of the church? She’s a believer and doesn’t belong out here with those of us of little or no faith!
Of course, she’s welcome to join us, but I’m thinking she’d probably be really uncomfortable with sleeping late on Sunday morning and freethinking over brunch. Seriously, Denny Burk, TGC, the rest of you guys, Rachel Held Evans is one of your people and you can’t just dispose of her by pushing her out here with us agnostics, atheists and freethinkers. You need to engage her HONESTLY.
(But Rachel, you’re welcome to visit, I promise we won’t bite and we’ll give you a nice cup of coffee to go with your freethinking.)
Just one quick correction:
I’m not Reformed. Never have been, probably never will be.
What was that I said about being I’ll-informed?
Is the Jimmy that is banned here the same person that is so ugly on Stuff Fundies Like?
Also, a question: are there common points here about authority, etc that is played out during this election season, thinking of the horrible (recent) comments by candidates Akin and Mourdock – about women, women parts and the like? And that God I guess pre ordains rape?
My heart hurts about all this. This is not the church of my youth.
The Bayly Brothers tell her what to say and think.
“Also, a question: are there common points here about authority, etc that is played out during this election season, thinking of the horrible (recent) comments by candidates Akin and Mourdock – about women, women parts and the like? And that God I guess pre ordains rape?”
Robert, check out this link and comments concerning Calvin and what Murdouch said. I wish more people would dive into what Calvin and many Calvinistas believe. See if you can follow the Cavlinista logic in comments:
http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2012/10/divine-determinism-a-textbook-example.html
Kamila – what is the common agreement with Mohler, Piper and Burk – actually, I don’t know about him, is Burk a reformed guy too-? If you don’t agree with them theologically, why hang out on their blogs?
Burk used to be the editor of CBMW’s journal when he was at Criswell College. He is now the Dean at Boyce named after a pro slavery founder of the SBC who was a Calvinist.
Julie Anne
I am watching rerun of Dumgb and Dumber with my husband. I need some comic relief.
Kamilla
You are correct. You are a reformed feminist.Sorry about that. Thank you for your kind correction.
Robert
You sound exactly like me. “My heart hurts about all this. This is not the church of my youth.” I have said that many times, This is not the church that I found such joy in when I was 17.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it was the same Jimmy.he is not permanently thrown off; just temporarily put on ice to see if he can “reform.”
Anon1
Is that true? Perhpas that is why the Reformed guys get all bent out of shape when people bring up the Puritans and slavery saying it was “ok” for the times. How embarrassing to be named after a proslavery guy. That deserves a post.
Dee – I don’t hold out any hope at all for Jimmy changing his ways.
Jimmy, if you’re reading this: Dee has cut you SO MUCH slack over the years… more than anyone else would. That was grace.
Your comments have been anything but gracious, and if you refuse to change, well, then…. hasta la vista.
Dee- the Monty Python bunny. Oh My! I didn’t realize they could be so cunning and crafty. Next time I feed my backyard bunny I will be sure to just wing the carrot out the back door and make a quick getaway!
“I think I’m going to ask my 22-yr old son to make his delicious kettle corn, put on my lounge wear, and watch the dialogue on WW tonight. This could be an exciting night.
You beat me to the kettle corn, Julie Anne! Want some Twizzlers? 😉
::settles in to knit some socks and watch the TWW show::
” I think Evans could ramp it up a bit as well. For example, she could explain how Jesus fulfilled the law and how the dietary restrictions were lifted in the New Testament.”
Back to the post. I agree with the above and also think the celeb boys are going to have to get used to the fact that people like RHE and others are not going away. In fact, there are more and more of them out there in all shapes, sizes and genders.
What sorta amuses me is the very bad PR coming from the side yelling “heretic”! Seriously, their bubble world is frightening. They are also did this in the SBC when the Trads publicized their document outlining their beliefs that were not Calvinistic. Piper saying Farewell, Rob Bell. The list is long. Accusations of heretic play well in 2012? I mean, this is just pure ignorance.
The are surely becoming known as the movement of hate.
That will work for a long while but eventually many people just get burned out. Especially if they are just followers not making bank off it.
Let’s all be nice to our new visitor.
Re obscure verses in the OT, no doubt a lot of ink has been spilt over these, and even now some commentaries can’t decide (from what I can tell) whether the levitical laws are for practical reasons of health, reasons of ceremonial purity or a mixture of both.
As for the number of wives and concubines of some of the Hebrews, a couple of things come to a mind. Firstly, Adam and Eve seem to be held up as the model for God’s original intentions for marriage. Polygamy and keeping concubines seem to be part of the post-Fall culture. Secondly, I can’t think of any polygamous marriage in the OT which is held up as an example of how to marry. On the contrary, the shenanigans with Abraham, Sarah and Hagar, then Jacob, Rachel and Leah, then Elkanah, Hannah and the other one (can’t remember her name), then the family struggles of David (caused partly by his own sin with Bathsheba), not even mentioning the hideous mess that Solomon got into….. need I go on? From reading the Gospels it seems that by the time of Jesus the Jews had become monogamous, although some rabbis allowed easy divorce, which was the problem Jesus addressed when he cited the Genesis verses about man and woman.
I haven’t read Rachel Held Evans’ book so can’t comment, though I did follow the Amazon link and read the reviews.
At the risk of oversimplifying the OT, I think the principle is good that one reads the OT and interprets it in the light of the NT. So some OT sins are confirmed as sins in the NT, but others that seem mainly to relate to the ceremonial Law are declared obsolete, eg the distinction between clean and unclean foods.
to Mr.H – and others that are interested in the OT and NT connections – there is a fabulous resource out there called ShaneWillardMinistries.org On his home page are 6 foundational teaching concepts you can access for free. They have helped me tremendously in understanding God’s Word. Here is his bio from his website:
Shane is from Charleston, SC (USA) where he began working in full-time ministry as a youth pastor of a small church. Since that time, Shane has held multiple pastoral positions at various sized churches. Shane now ministers full time in America and internationally, particularly in South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand. With degrees in both clinical psychology and theology, Shane is known for being an informative, brilliant and humorous communicator.
Shane is mentored by a pastor with rabbinical training, and teaches the context of the Scriptures from a Hebraic perspective. This perspective helps people to see God’s Word in a completely new way and leads them into a more intimate relationship with the Messiah, Jesus Christ.
Hope this is ok to post 🙂
PS re savage bunnies, I remember when I had rabbits in my back garden. They gave worse bites than my reptiles.
Anon 1
I would have thought after the Rob Bell “Love Wins” incident Burk, et al. would have thought twice about commenting before reading the book. Reviewing trailers, commenting on Today show interviews are just veiled excuses to bash their intended victims.
My guess is their stunt has increased Evans’ book sales by at least 25%.
Kolya – Rabbits are very territorial, and more so when unaltered. So yes, if you stick your hand into the space that the bun believes is his – or hers – (to which you have no right, you fiend!), yep, they’re gonna nip pretty hard.
My bun (an indoor rabbit; she’s more fun than 90% of the dogs I’ve met in my life) is spayed, but when I adopted her from the rabbit rescue, she was still in the throes of teen bun-dom. Between that (I wanna run around and play! I wanna rip up those grass mats! I wanna dig til I drop!) and the slowly waning hormone levels, she could be quite a handful at times.
and yet, throughout it, very sweet and affectionate, too.
She’s still feisty, and equally loving, now that she’s a few years older. And I wouldn’t have it any other way!
Steve D:
You said:’My guess is their stunt has increased Evans’ book sales by at least 25%.”
I hope that it increases the sales of RHE’s book even more than that.
Folks like Burk cannot deal with anything other than what they believe and try to shut others up–he can not stop folks from reading her book.
Oh, Jenny, I didn’t know you knit. Tell me what kind of yarn, do you use double pointed needles, or circular, two at a time, Magic Loop, toe-up? Give me the scoop!
mot-
Folks like Burk cannot deal with anything other than what they believe and try to shut others up–he can not stop folks from reading her book.
People like Burk only scare their followers. Other people get curious as to what is so terrible and decide to read the “banned” material for themselves.
DARN. JulieAnne, you reminded me that I need to order sock yarn so I can knit my folks socks for Christmas! If I thought they’d take care of them, I’d knit them some out of this lovely merino-cashmere I’m spinning right now, but they’re elderly and dad’s blind, so it’s some nice superwash wool for them. I wanted to have it in time for two weeks from now, when I’ll be caring for them for several days while my long-suffering younger brother takes a well-deserved vacation.
Off to order sock yarn, can’t keep putting it off!! (I really hope that confuses the living daylights out of people who think feminists are not interested in the home crafts.)
Julie Anne, I’m old school: DPNs all the way! Just taught myself toe-up, but I prefer top-down. Currently working up a pair of seed-ribbed softies for myself from a skein of Berroco’s Comfort Sock. Do you knit, too?
Steve D:
You said to me:”People like Burk only scare their followers.”
It is amazing that some people let other people do their thinking for them like Burk. If a person never uses his or her mind, could we not conclude they are mind-less.
bows to S.D. with respect and admiration::
When I grow up I want to be a spinner! 🙂 Are you on Ravelry?
Jenny – Yes, I knit. I learned from a dear friend when we were stationed in Maine 20+ yrs ago. Seems everybody knits in Maine.
SD – I love watching spinning and that cashmere sounds like a yummy indulgence
Regarding knitters as feminists – oh yea, definitely. I don’t know what it is, I notice a lot of very highly educated people on Ravelry who knit, and people you wouldn’t expect like scientists, engineers, doctors, etc.
Julie Anne — We should start a TWW fan group on Rav. There’s probably more spinners/knitters/crocheters here than you, me and S.D.! 😉
Great quote. “It is important for us to remember that the Israelites were living under a theocracy. God functioned as the ancient FDA, CDC, police force, refuse management, etc.”
I have been toying with this idea in my own head. What kind of instructions were needed for the earliest of nations before anything such as we know of civilization existed? You made a good point with shellfish. I wonder how many of the other odd commands have similar explanation that we are simply too removed from their third (fourth?) world issues to comprehend.
“Samsonite! I was way off.”
Ahhhh, I am getting it now, Owen Strachan (aka Stran) is also at Boyce College (with Burk) and Mohler is the President. Somehow, Piper is all linked into these guys – and are they linked into the Gospel Coalition?
I wonder if they draw straws to see who will take down Rachel today.
So first it was Owen on Brit radio, followed by someone over at Piper’s blog, and now it is Burk’s turn. Wonder when Mohler is going to dismissively accuse Rachel of some form of emotionalism next week?
But they seem to share the same template – 1) accuse Rachel of not being an evangelical, oops (she responds) OK 2) accuse her of misrepresenting evangelicalism (people write in in her defence), still not working 3) Fine, accuse her of misrepresenting complementarianism (we never follow the OT laws for women – except Prov. 31, Eve, curses, Sarah calling Ab master, so clearly she had no basis for that stunt… oh,wait… next, the Bible in general (it’s a mockery to actually try to follow it!!!!!), and then Orthodox Christianity (as if they are the gatekeepers of Orthodoxy around, simultaneously angering everyone else) – without having yet read her book.
And, whenever someone starts to make sense in their rebuttals against then, cry ‘straw man!’ Well, not sure how many men she features in her book that aren’t themselves truly, but they aren’t real – no wait, yes we are! -OK, how she portrays us isn’t real! We would never randomly apply random verses to modern day complementarianism – like curses – no, never. Don’t go digging around Owen’s articles too far…. Men are supposed to go to work because of that OT curse about the weeds (justifying women staying home). Never mind it is a mute point after Genesis 8:2??? because God erases it for Noah once he exits the Ark, but don’t let facts get in the way of a great rebuttal.
I have been on other blogs and it is all about why said commenter won’t read such and such a book because she uses straw men (straw women, etc.). Not having read the book, I like how everyone knows this. I have never heard of people using the “go forth an multiply” verse before – strictly OT (never used by, say, Quiverful or Mormons – who just recently got anointed Christian due to a certain Republican candidate).
I suspect the average Boyce College prof has no idea which verses for comp belong to which testament, since they have so thoroughly removed them from their original contexts anyways.
Blah – sorry Dee and Deb for my rant. At least spare the criticism until the book is out and read.
I mean them, not you two lovely bloggers – you are great – in regards to reading her book first!
@Jenny I lurk on Ravelry. I like to see what people do, what yarns they like, etc.
I’m a really “lousy” spinner in the sense that I do it mostly to keep my hands busy. When I’m spinning, I also surf the Internet. I’m able to take one hand off the single to move my mouse or page down or whatever. However, I CANNOT do that while I’m plying because I need both hands all the time to keep the singles from going haywire.
My mother requested a pair of hand knitted socks out of a cold dark brown color. I think I’ve found something for her. Now if I could remember what color my dad wanted. If I can’t remember, it’s going to be some sort of muted green. And I think I’m going to gift myself something sufficiently loud and fuchsia-like for my own pair of socks, but I really just need to knit several pairs because my feet FROZE last winter.
What I liked about RHE’s Today interview was her final line about not wanting to see the Bible turned into an adjective. Kinda what our glamorous blog queens feel about the Gospel.
While reading Denny Burk’s response, I happened to notice his photostream. Oh my word, he is obviously in love with himself.
Almost every photo in the stream – Just Denny Burk. Denny Burk preaching. Denny Burk with Spiderman. Denny Burk playing basketball. Denny Burk in front of churches. Denny Burk in front of a crowd. Denny Burk standing in front of interesting architecture. Denny Burk at a conference. Denny Burk with politicians. Denny Burk with John Piper. Denny Burk can’t get enough of himself.
Ah dear, you good crew of TWW crack me up in a wonderful way. Totally.
Seeings how I can’t knit (lack of ability + desire) I thought to declare that I mastered my first kefir today. Very exciting. I’d mucked up the previous two batches but this one was gold. With A2 milk no less. mmm ! (raised fist punching the sky). Next challenge – home made brioche and croissant pastry. Am going to try and master a copy of the delectable broccoli and blue cheese tart from my fave bakery. Fingers crossed ! I will send you all some through the interwebs…
Don’t worry, Dee. I’m not here to engage anyone in an argument so you can breathe easy.
Val,
Strange thing, if the commenters here who think they know me so well knew *anything* about me, they’d know I think for myself too much to be anyone’s pet sycophant, lap dog, etc., etc. I hang out with lots of people, many of whom I don’t agree with both online and in the real world. I always pity the people sitting near us when my friend “L” and I have lunch. We ALWAYS argue and it’s usually loud and on more than one occasion it has involved the word, “heretic”. When we were going to the same Anglican church, our priest would regularly just sit back with a smile on his face and watch and listen, shaking his head and occasionally laughing.
To tell you the truth, I’ve never quite understood why people who strongly disagree about things can’t be friends. Iron sharpens iron, right?
Julie Ann, Jenny and SD
Hi! I’m another Ravelry lurker cum TWW reader. Been knitting since I was 5. My mom was an avid sock knitter, especially while watching Schumacher in his glory days of Formula 1 Grand Prix. I used to hold the skeins of sock wool (leftover from my gran’s stash) for her while she wound it into balls. Made me feel like Milly-Molly-Mandy! (MMM = delightful children’s books from 1920s about a little girl in an English country village)
I look forward to reading RHE’s book as I’ve just won a copy at Pam Hogeweide’s blog. Yay for competitions open to international readers.
Is awake & waving her knitting needles.
Hi Kamilla- if you wouldn’t describe yourself as reformed, theologically, what would you describe yourself as?
Val:
You said:”Ahhhh, I am getting it now, Owen Strachan (aka Stran) is also at Boyce College (with Burk) and Mohler is the President. Somehow, Piper is all linked into these guys – and are they linked into the Gospel Coalition?
I wonder if they draw straws to see who will take down Rachel today.”
Yes they choose who gets to be the bully of the day to a woman.
They just can not deal with a woman who is not submissive to them.
I have seen some this book and Ms. Evans mentioned before, briefly, on this blog. I had not heard of her.
So, I asked the brilliant person in my family, my nephew. He is blind, and has been blind from birth. He is a sophomore vocal performance major at an IV league college. He is a voracious reader. At 20, he has read so much more theology than the average Christian. He has a “reader” that he uses, in addition to braille. He reads thousands of pages per day. I think that his favorite contemporary author is NT Wright, though I know that he recently read Horton’s systematic theology.
He has an interest in theology, and would like to write a theology about disability. He gets particularly annoyed with strangers who come up to him and ask to pray for him – that God will restore his sight. It is amazing how often this happens. He understands that these people are well meaning, but believes they are very misguided.
One of his favorite blogs is Internet Monk, though he says the overall tone over there can get depressing because it is usually such a bash-fest.
At any rate, when I heard of Ms. Evans and her book, I asked him about it. His response was very interesting.
He said that he did not really understand all the interest or controversy surrounding her. He says that she is not saying anything or asking questions that have not been asked and debated by Christians for centuries. He was really surprised that she has a following at all. He says that she has little to no theological training at all or really any ministry experience. He has checked out her blog a little and just assumes that she is clever and has struck a nerve in the popular culture and may get some notoriety for a while, or an entire career, if she continues to play her cards right.
So, now you have all that I know about Ms. Evans and the only informal review of her work.
If my nephew is correct in his assessment, Ms. Evans might be a religious type of Arianna Huffington, without the ex-husband who gave her millions of dollars to help fund the publishing send off.
I doubt that I am going to read this book, or that I am going to spend much time wrestling with Ms. Evans and either her fans or detractors.
There is an old adage that goes something like this – Everything that can be said has already been said by somebody.
The trick for anyone who writes is to say it differently or promote oneself through accomplishment or controversy to get enough of an audience to buy your book.
I suppose Ms. Evans will be around for a good while, and there’s nothing wrong with that. That’s what’s great about a free society.
Now I’m off for a 20 miler. Wish me luck!
There are sure a lot of comments about that Jimmy guy. I don't know him and don't really have anything to say about him. Except that it appears as though, with all the comments, that Jimmy is really in your heads.
Also, I could not figure out who the woman was that you all were talking about – and then she popped up – Kamilla.
Well, so far, so good. I think she has said some interesting things. But I note the criticisms.
Will be watching with interest.
Anonymous,
I have appreciated your commentary, particularly with regard to the SBC since I currently attend a Southern Baptist church.
FYI, Jimmy is our primary detractor. He toes the Calvinista line very well and has little to no empathy for victims of abuse.
Good luck with your 20 mile race!
Haitch,
Be sure to send those recipes our way so we can put them under our “Don’t Get Angry – Cook!” section.
Hope they turn out well!
Tikatu,
I missed the Today interview, but I’m glad Evans made that important point. The Calvinista crowd is so insulated that they have no idea how ridiculous their gospelrific adjectives – Biblical, Gospel, etc. – come across to the rest of the world, not to mention their pet term like winsome, unpack, and trajectory.
Oh, and let’s not forget their descriptors for critics starting with ‘BITTER”!
Hi Numo, thanks for the lagomorph info :-). I should note that when we were down to rabbits (a male and a female) I had the male sterilised and put them both together. They were both fine and in addition to his occasional attempts at physical intimacy would occasionally groom each other or lie next to each other. All the aggression seemed to have gone.
I think rabbits benefit from companionship.
Kamilla, you’re right, iron sharpens iron. As long as we welcome one another in Christ, I don’t see it’s a problem.
NB I exclude *outright* heresy from that, ie if someone says Jesus was the eighth incarnation of some extraterrestrial being or whatever.
“He was really surprised that she has a following at all. He says that she has little to no theological training at all or really any ministry experience. He has checked out her blog a little and just assumes that she is clever and has struck a nerve in the popular culture and may get some notoriety for a while, or an entire career, if she continues to play her cards right.”
Hmmm. sounds like how CJ Mahaney got started. Little education, no theological training or ministry experience…….
Is this the same Kamilla I used to read when she invaded the CBE Scroll blog? The folks over there were saints with the patience and kindness they showed her amidst all the insults.
“The trick for anyone who writes is to say it differently or promote oneself through accomplishment or controversy to get enough of an audience to buy your book.”
Hmmm.
Like “Humility” or “Don’t Waste Your Cancer” or “9 Marks of a Healthy Church” when you hold the keys to the kingdom? There are tons of examples of “saying it differently” to sell books.
Good gosh, I’ve ‘woken up to a cozy –
English villages, knitting, brioche, conflict.
Thankfully it’s raining here today. Will grab the cat, pot of tea and settle in for a good read.
Great post! Looking forward to reading the comments. I’m struggling with a lot of this stuff myself right now.
Anon 1,
Great point about the lack of theological training or ministry experience when Mahaney got started.
Irish said:
“Good gosh, I’ve ‘woken up to a cozy –
English villages, knitting, brioche, conflict.”
Splendid comment!
Anon 1,
It’s the same one.
She’s also the same Kamilla who invaded the compegalitarian (sp?) that once existed to try to create a friendly atmosphere for those of opposing views to debate and engage in polite banter. I miss that old place.
Kamilla missed the point and tried to ramrod Patriarchy down everyone’s throats with hostile, superior nasty-ness (after a charade of fake charity to weasel her way in so she could blind-side the uninitiated.)
I don’t bother engaging her anymore. There is no point. Her mind is made up. Don’t confuse her with facts, evidence, and delving deeper into the context of the Bible.
Hey Mara, I use to read and comment over at complegalitarian, too. Wayne had the patience of saint. and we learned a lot from him as a Bible translator.
Just FYI — there are two different Wendy’s who have posted.
RHE’s book simply brings to the public a debate that’s been going on since Christianity began. That is, what parts of the Old Testament law, if any,apply to Christians and which of those make any sense in today’s world. It’s not nearly as simple as Denny Burk makes it appear in his comments regarding RHE’s Today Show appearance. Scholars have argued over this for centuries and the debate continues today.
The Old Testament contains, by popular count, 613 laws, called the mitzvot in Judaism. Nowhere on the NT is there a list of those that apply to Christians and those that do not. Paul does address some of these, such as circumcision, food laws, and others, but his treatment of the OT laws is nowhere near comprehensive. There is nowhere in the NT where you can clearly discern which OT laws apply to Christians and which do not, thus the debate.
First and foremost among these OT laws are the Ten Commandments – do they still apply? One could read Paul as saying all the OT law has been replaced. Moreover, despite Denny Burk’s claim that the overwhelming majority of Christians have held that “the Old Testament ceremonial and civil codes apply to the historic nation of Israel alone and not to the New Covenant church.” Show me where it says that in the NT. Moreover, this does not stop evangelicals from dredging up OT laws that suit their purpose – case in point, those that supposedly condemn homosexuals (and what about the accompanying penalty for this offense – putting them to death)?
The issue is ‘simple’ only to simple minds.
Oh my goodness. I just finished over at that Denny Burke site.
Agatha would be proud – bodies everywhere.
Jeff T:
Folks like Denny cherry pick the Bible to suit their purposes. They can not deal with issues but one way–theirs. I also grow weary of their always believing they are right.
Christ who is our life, is the fulfillment of the Law.
Dee: “Please feel free to share with all of us your particular ‘weird’ law of the Old Testament.” “Try to explain why you think that law was instituted.”
Hello,
After the resurrection of Christ, the Christian mission exhibited, from that new beginning, a bold new broad-mindedness and freedom; the starting point and decision content of it’s preaching was not the old testament law as before, nor any blood sacral system, but Jesus Christ.
In that day, circumcision and many other regulations could thus be laid aside, (this is my blood, which is shed for you , a new covenant) The Law at once was fulfilled in the new, superseded by Christ’s sacral offering of himself.
However, as this would shake for the believer traditional Judaism to it’s very core, it would also take some time for the believer at pentecost to comprehend this great relief:
Christ is the fulfillment of the Law.
(Some would have it that Christ and the Law parted company on the fateful Golgothic day.)
Even so, the New Testament speaks of a liberal fulfillment of the Old Testament Law being fulfilled in Christ.
Let’s take a look:
Seeing the impossibility of man fulfilling the Law, Christ humble himself to the point of a servant and offered himself up as the sacrificial Passover Lamb.
God sent his only Son to render what could not be rendered by man.
Hence Christ fulfilled the Law for every believer.
It is Christ, who forevermore has become our living example of what an image bearer truly looks like, reborn in faith, loving God with an unmistaken all, out of that heart, life changing devotion, and faithful love for our fellowman.
Our ‘focus’ is no longer upon the Law, but upon Christ who has fulfilled the Law for us, freeing us from this great burden.
We are then free to serve Christ.
Because Christ has fulfilled the Law, we are free to lay aside our guilt, our shame, our inadequacies, and embrace Christ’s sufficiency.
It is enough, that God is greatly pleased with his Son,
It is enough, that we are in Christ,
It is enough, that Christ is the fulfillment of the Law,
It is enough, that God sees the believer in Christ, forgiven, loved, redeemed, provisioned, and expected….
Expected?
….a room has been prepared in my Fathers house, for you, Jesus said, I go to prepare a place for you, so that where I am, you me be also.
Consider Carefully?
IronClad
Jenny/Julie Anne
We need to call you all the Knitwits-knitters and witty!
Estelle+all other knitters
If you would like, I could set up a page for you all to share your knitting expertise and you could vent at the same time. Let me know!
I’m a teensy bit jealous of all you knitters. I can crochet, but I would love to learn how to knit!
In regards to the law, I guess I have a hard time with why it is believed we are no longer bound to it when Jesus Himself said “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” matthew 5:18
What am I missing here? I know Paul said we are no longer bound by the law (Romans?). . . so what did Jesus mean when He said that?
My reason for admiring RHE has nothing to do with her education (or lack thereof) on Bible matters, but rather her willingness to ask hard questions and not be satisfied with believing whatever men and women tell her to believe. I am guessing that is the case for many of her fans – though I do not consider myself her “fan,” but rather I appreciate her ability to get our of herself and speak honestly.
Anonymous
Please tell your nephew that we would love to publish anything that he would like to write about theology and disability. He sounds wonderful!
I was surprised to hear what he thinks about Internet Monk. I find them quite thoughtful and not argumentative. In fact, sometimes I think I am far more controversial than the good people at Monk.
Rachel Held Evans is important to the question of faith amongst the younger population. It is vital that we understand that people are fleeing the church and becoming the “nones”-people who are not affiliated with anything. Many of them (40%) still claim to hold to the Christian faith but are fed up with the church. Many of those believe that the church is not addressing these deeper issues. Evans asks those questions. If the church does not do an about face and stop attacking her and, instead, give thoughtful responses to her questions, we will see further people leaving.
Instead of addressing these questions we have men like John Piper saying that it is a sin not to like his version of election, that women should accept abuse for a night and that women do not have to ask their husbands if they can go to the bathroom (this is not a joke and we covered it here). I believe the church is in trouble and that they should listen to Evans concerns-not that they have to accept it, but they need to understand the motivation and give good answers as opposed to lengthy treatises why women can’t read Scripture during church services. They are so out of touch!
20 miles-I am impressed. Go for it!
Anonymous
Yep, he is. That is why he is on ice for a few weeks. He has been banned at other blogs. We are just trying to do some “behvior modificatiion.”
Expressions of solid assurance: The fulfillment of God’s word.
“In regards to the law, I guess I have a hard time with why it is believed we are no longer bound to it when Jesus Himself said “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” matthew 5:18
What am I missing here? I know Paul said we are no longer bound by the law (Romans?). . . so what did Jesus mean when He said that?” -NMP
Hello,
This concern is shared by many. It is a very good question. At the time Christ spoke of the law in relation to fulfillment, he was yet to go to the cross.
It is important for the believer that old testament scripture still seeks fulfillment, much already “in Christ”, yet much “in promise”, yet we see a God who jealously guards his word, who expresses with solid assurance it’s fulfillment.
Wait for it!
Consider Carefully?
IronClad
No More Perfect: “what did Jesus mean when He said that?”
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. — Matthew 5:17-18
Jesus the Messiah redeemed us from the curse that has been brought through the law by becoming a curse for us (Galatians 3:13). He substituted Himself in our place and upon the cross took the punishment that is justly ours so that we are no longer under the curse of the Law. In doing so, He fulfilled and upheld the requirements of the Law. This does not mean that Christians are to be lawless, as some advocate – a teaching called antinomianism. Rather, it means that we are free from the Mosaic Law and instead under the law of Christ, which is to love God with all of our being and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.
Jesus became the end of the Law by virtue of what He did on earth through His sinless life and His sacrifice on the cross. So, the Law no longer has any bearing over us because its demands have been fully met in the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith in Jesus the Messiah who satisfied the righteous demands of the Law restores us into a pleasing relationship with God and keeps us there. No longer under the penalty of the Law, we now live under the law of grace in the love of God.
Hope that helps.
Anonymous
Kamilla is under warning so I am hoping she will debate instead of doing the usual stuff. There is a reason behind this concern.
Deb
her statement to the effect is in the embedded video. Working on EChurch.
Irish
Graet comment at 10:14
Sadly, the debate at Denny’s site reminds me of how we do politics these days. You take one sentence your opponent states, and you twist it out of context. You use it to your advantage. Denny is doing a great job with this.
Lets take an example:
At the beginning of his article he mentioned she began the question exclusive authority of the bible. What he didn’t mention is why she said that. He just knows that one sentence alone will fire up his base.
When you go and read the part in which she states this you find out she mentions it she learned the ‘whole’ story of Jericho in the bible. She tells people that as a child she was given a sanitized version of the story – which was her favorite – and now she learned that they killed all the men, women and children. She freaked out at the parts the Sunday School teacher didn’t mention. She speaks of how she felt after learning the parts that were left out. She speaks of that time in her life after the bubble burst. ie: Why would God tell people to kill, torture, etc those people?
Is that how it was presented at Denny’s site? No. He used one sentence to fire up his readers, and get them defensive. THIS is even before he even READ the book? Why bother reading it…he already made up his mind!
What is sad is that Denny – no doubt – has some good things to say about other topics. Ones that he does NOT have to take out of context to whoop up his base. All he seems to be teaching here is ‘us against them’, and lets just put it out there…justifiable hate. If people want to tell me their responses were not hateful? (giggles) Thus the word ‘justifiable’.
I don’t respect people that play games. Use others to start almost a mob mentality. I can’t believe that God is all that impressed either.
Your article is correct. At that part of her life someone needed to explain things to her. It seems some don’t feel the need, and break out the rhetoric to shut down all dialog. The rhetoric is why the word ‘biblical’ is such a joke today. They prefer being lazy about this, and show contempt instead of doing the hard work necessary.
I haven’t read the book. Chances are I will. Since people like Denny tend to show he is willing to cherry pick before he opens the cover? I highly doubt I will give his opinion much weight. What he doesn’t realize? He made give her some boast in her selling of the book, because people will want to read it for themselves…and see what else is in there.
That is where he made lose or win additional readers for himself. The ones that drink the koolaid of pulling things out of context will love hsi site..and what about the ones that realize he completely missed the point on purpose?
The bible state that teachers like himself should be above reproach. So far I’m not impressed. You have to wonder if he realizes this type of approach is not what God has in mind.
Pursue Christ who is pursuing men?
“….we are free from the Mosaic Law and instead under the law of Christ, which is to love God with all of our being and to love our neighbors as we love ourselves.” -TedS
Hello,
How wonderful that the law of grace, in the love of God, makes provision for us. We are faithfully provisioned in Christ, by a loving God that walks with us unceasingly, untiringly, rain or shine, faithful with the very elements, faithful in the fulfillment of his word. Pursue Christ who is pursuing men? “If I be lifted up, I shall draw all men to myself….”
Lifted up?
Indeed! That fateful day…. Jesus is now free to draw all men to himself, Will you come? He has prepared a place for you! He has faithfully extended his hand, will you not extended yours?
Consider Carefully?
IronClad
Deb,
To you, Splendid Sleuths!
Dee,
Thank you. Just calling it the way it is. :/
Hannah:
You said:”You have to wonder if he realizes this type of approach is not what God has in mind.”
Wonder what it is like to be a student in one of his seminary classes.
I would join the knitting circle! I have my needles and my wit and they’re both sharp. Watch out world. The TWW knitting group is going to redeem the fleece that men like Mahaney, Driscoll, Mohler and Dever have stolen and turn it into sweaters, socks, scarves and mittens!
IronClad & TedS
That is indeed the majority interpretation of the effect Christ’s death and resurrection on the OT law, but even in this view some OT laws are still valid, i. e. the Ten Commandments in particular. Those that say none of the law is valid anymore are called antinomians and are a definite minority. So the debate goes on
Here are a few things to consider. Burk is the Dean at Boyce.Boyce is the undergrad college at the seminary. It has NOTHING to do with the original
mission of SBTS but was added to help filter students to SBTS seminary. (that is a whole other topic as to dropping numbers of seminary program)
Therefore, Burk gets them very young and they are ready to listen to the greats at SBTS. Burk has to get in front and make sure they know who is approved and who is not. This does not always work to plan but if you have seen the YRR clones coming out of SBTS like I have, you would gather the same thing. It is indoctrination. Not education.
A few years ago, after Ware (Strachen’s father in law) preached his “unsubmissive wives trigger abuse” sermon at Denton Bible church, Burk did a post on it. It went to over 1000 comments and I must tell you the scholarly egals were eating their lunch in a very inrenic but firm way. See, I think they prefer the vitriol. I think they pick the fights and use ad hominem because it works in their bubble. When the scholarly Greek trained egals/mutualists stuck to their irenic guns, it became very embarassing. Burk ended up deleting the 1000+ comments.
I just watched the Today show clip and think she did quite a good job considering the venue of soundbites. She is asking the same questions I have been asking of the comps/patriarchs for the last 10 years. What are specific roles/rules we must follow. Where is their Talmud. See, this is a problem because the comp/pat folks are not monolithic. A sin at Piper’s church would not be a sin at another comp church. Sin for women may not be the same at the Baylys church as Pipers, and so on. At what age should women stop teaching boys as they are now men? Is it a sin for women to witness to men? Or is teaching men abaout Christ only a sin when you are in a church building?
The questions are endless. The problem with “Biblical Womanhood” is that it has both women and men focused on each other and themselves and not on loving Christ and others.
Legal Validity : The Law, as a dish, is best fulfilled cold?
“That is indeed the majority interpretation of the effect Christ’s death and resurrection on the OT law, but even in this view some OT laws are still valid, i. e. the Ten Commandments in particular. Those that say none of the law is valid anymore are called antinomians and are a definite minority.” -JeffT
Hello,
Respectfully, would one mutilate their foreskin also? Jesus knew his people wouldn’t be stupid; he raised up the Apostle Paul to show us, as ‘Gentile’ believers, apart from the ‘Jewish law”, what to keep, and what to chuck. He (Paul) berated Pete for that very same ‘Law’ problem.
Let’s apply the whole of scripture to the promises given to man by God himself.
Jesus did.
The Apostle Paul did.
The Apostle Peter did.
The Apostle James did.
Will you?
All of the promises of God are yea, and amen?
You Decide.
IronClad
Biblical Womanhood According to SGM (for starters):
Never take initiative or appear to be leading. If you do, preface it by saying others encouraged you to do so, and humbly speak as though you’re God’s gift to women.
Continuously campaign for female modesty, but don’t let anyone know about the immodest amount of time & money you spend shopping for clothes and accessories.
Don’t encourage women to be intelligent, informed, ask questions, further their education, or have their own bible studies. Heaven forbid that they should have thoughts of their own.
Pretend that all woman, everywhere, around the globe, are created by God to follow your model of biblical womanhood, married or single. And do make certain to use the right cleaning solution when buffing the granite countertop or shining the silver!
Secretly manage the finances like Carolyn Mahaney does, but submit to your husband as he tells SGM men that its their role as Head of the Household to be in charge of the money. Then write a book with “shopping” in the title as a blessing to the women, and trust they will get permission to buy the book from their husbands!
Serve your husband. Be his help-meat. Whenever. Wherever!
Evie wrote:
“I would join the knitting circle! I have my needles and my wit and they’re both sharp. Watch out world. The TWW knitting group is going to redeem the fleece that men like Mahaney, Driscoll, Mohler and Dever have stolen and turn it into sweaters, socks, scarves and mittens!”
Well, I need new liners for my mukluks, which according to John Piper are sinful, since Jesus never wore mukluks. So I’m in too.
I know that there are many Calvinists who are wonderful, intelligent, faithful Christians.
That having been said, it seems that many of the problems of this Neo-Reformed/Calvinista movement are directly correlated to some of their specific niche theology (not necessarily Calvin’s TULIP – although that could be part of it – but rather Piper’s own customized version of TULIP).
I wish someone would produce an analysis of these issues (spiritual abuse, physical and sexual abuse, poor leadership, etc.) from a theological perspective. Does anyone know if this has been done? I’d love to read it!
[Dr. Thomas McCall’s article against Piperism is a good start]
@Anon 1 UNITED STATES on Sat Oct 27, 2012 at 01:11 PM said:
“Boyce is the undergrad college at the seminary. It has NOTHING to do with the original mission of SBTS but was added to help filter students to SBTS seminary. (that is a whole other topic as to dropping numbers of seminary program)”
Anon 1 – I’d love to hear your further take on seminary (seminary in general or just the one you mentioned).
Also really good take on indoctrination vs education.
Irish-luck,
I did nuk-no wut a mukruk waz so I lukked it up. Yes, I think we kewd knit mukruk liners that you puck luvin’ cannucks like so much! 😉
Haitch, I will never forget the day I was driving past SBTS on the way downtown and my then 8 year old pointed and said: Mom is that the cemetary?
Out of the mouth of babes!
It was the same year they laid off 35 employees (remember with stay at home wives,mortgage payments and no health insurance) and right after that spent 150 million on beautifying the campus. We knew a few of those 35 who were sent out into a horrible economy. Some lost their homes over it.
The biggest mistake folks make is trusting Christians with your income. I have spent the last 10 years hearing horror story after horror story. You are better off working for the pagans who have to at least follow the employment laws. Remember, Paige Patterson won a lawsuit with the contention that a seminary operates as a church. And churches are not required to follow employment laws.
Years ago, Mohler had a man fired who was only about 9 mos away from retirement after about 30 years at SBTS. His name was Paul DEbussman. His crime? he dared to disagree with a chapel speaker (Tom Eliff now head of the SBC/IMB) who said a conservative had not been allowed to speak at chapel for many years. Debussman who was a sort of SBTS historian sent him a note listing the conservative chapel speakers. For this crime, this senior man was fired right before retirement by the then 34 year old Mohler.
http://mainstreambaptist.blogspot.com/2007/09/whatever-became-of-paul-debusman.html
Haitch, I don’t know why but my heart just breaks for those who have been shunted aside (some even ruined) while the men who did it continue to gain power and prestige. Don’t the young minds full of mush realize that one day it might be them? And we see not only Mohler and Eliff are implicated but also Akin. Each of these men now are the bosses over an SBC entity. See, cruelty and unChristian acts pay in the SBC.
In honor of Mr. Debussman, I thought I would share the above link from someone who knew him. I know some folks who knew him but I have not personally met him.
Beakerj (in this comment):
You mean to tell us you’re not related to the fictitious Tracy Beaker?
(Nick Bulbeck is my real name, btw. One “l”, mind.)
Hmm… not sure why the hyperlink didn’t work there – they usually do. Must’ve hit a wrong note in the html.
No, not to Tracy Beaker, & not, alas, to Beaker in the muppets, to whom I feel quite kindred!
Deb:
It was a training run. Helping my friend train for a marathon. We did 22.3 (He did 22.5 because of short section I cut off).
If you join your church, you should see if you can be a messenger to next year’s SBC meeting. We can meet and I can introduce you to my pastor and other friends at the meeting.
Mohler and his henchmen’s various purges would have made Stalin proud. Oppression and cruelty are the order of the day in the SBC. How in the he!! they consider themselves Christians is beyond me. They are more like sociopaths incapable of love.
Dee:
Thanks. I started running just before I turned 40. It has been a blessing. I have met lots of people of all different walks and beliefs that are unified around 1 thing. We ran 22 miles today. You can have some great conversations with people on a run that long. We ran in a local park that is quite hilly. The trees were at their peak in terms of fall foliage.
My nephew grew up in Minnesota. He is a classically trained musician. He has come to really come to love a more liturgical form of worship. He is probably going to end up being a Lutheran, but that has not been decided. He attends a church plant of our congregation near the University. The pastor is a Boyce grad, then Vandy divinity school, and then Ph.D at Vandy in Church History. The pastor is 28 or so. Very young for a Ph.D. and pastorate. He is mature for his years and a very good pastor. He has done a great job ministering to my nephew.
I will tell my nephew of your interest. He writes some for one of the school student publications. I think it is of a libertarian bent.
Anon 1 said~
“The biggest mistake folks make is trusting Christians with your income.”
Makes me sad to admit it but have to agree.
“Years ago, Mohler had a man fired who was only about 9 mos away from retirement after about 30 years at SBTS. His name was Paul DEbussman.”
Didn’t RC Sproul sr do something like that to a longtime friend of his who worked for him? Gosh-can’t remember the guy’s name. I think it was RC’s son-in-law who actually fired the guy for no reason. I read about it when I was reading about the RC jr thing.
And do make certain to use the right cleaning solution when buffing the granite countertop or shining the silver! — Evie
Who the F can afford granite countertops these days? And if you can pay for granite, go for Corian instead — similar price and much more durable and maintainable.
Then write a book with “shopping” in the title as a blessing to the women, and trust they will get permission to buy the book from their husbands! — Evie
Why did I just hear that shtick from The Flintstones where Wilma & Betty hold up credit cards to a trumpet flourish, yell “CHAAAAAARGE IT!!!!” and run off to the mall?
I’ve always wanted to run a marathon.
Knitting club. Running club. I could use the inspiration!
“The biggest mistake folks make is trusting Christians with your income.” — Anon1
I learned long ago to NEVER trust Christians when it comes to money. And everyone who’s had to do business with Born-Agains soon learns the same lesson. And NEVER have a Christian as a financial planner — when your investments go south (like happened lately), they’re only advice as you’re wiped out will be to tell you about The Rapture and End Time Prophecy (and might offer “To Pray for You”). I am NOT making that last one up.
Diane, It was a man named ‘kinser”, I think. He had some sort of agreement/contract with Sproul about selling books. Sproul totally screwed him and the old guy refused to sue. He had a heart attack or something right after. I remeber Slice of Laodicea wrote about it.
BTW: Ligon Duncan’s brother was running Ligoneir during the big financial scandal even though Sprouls son in law, Tim Dick was the President. he was not too bright. I remember thinking how wierd it was that Sprouls grown daughter and husband lived with them in a huge home with their grown grandchildren. Until one saw the son in law’s cv.
Lol HUG – Oh, and don’t forget to keep those granite countertops clear of stuff ala Carolyn Mahaneys advice, which I’m sure has nothing to do with her wanting as much granite to be seen as possible! Surely not!
““Years ago, Mohler had a man fired who was only about 9 mos away from retirement after about 30 years at SBTS. His name was Paul DEbussman.””
Folks like Mohler talk a whole lot about grace but it only applies to them and others exactly like them.
Cross them and if they can hurt you they will.
I do not see Christ in their brand of Christianity.
Evie wrote: “…Then write a book with “shopping” in the title as a blessing to the women, and trust they will get permission to buy the book from their husbands!…”
And if you’re one of the well-heeled Biblically obedient women, never! ever! let it get out that you’re way above Kohl’s and only shop at Nordstrom’s & upscale boutiques. The liberal apostate heretics will have a field day with you.
HUG, you would not believe the complaints many mega’s got over those “shepherds guides”. You know the book of “Christian” businesses to use. Basically it boils down to the Christian consumer wants a discount and the Christian business wants to charge more. All because they are both “Christian”.
I am still wondering how we are to be salt and light when we are living, working, socializing and doing business in these Christian bubbles created for us? I mean, want a latte? Go to church. want to work out? Go to church. Want to browse a book store? Go to church. Want a social life? go to Church. Go to church to eat chili. Go to church to do a cookie cook off for Christmas….and so on. It is ridiculous.
There is no way I would give up my Muslim baker who makes the best fresh pita.(Great to make individual healthy pizzas for the kids!) Or the Jewish deli I frequent. There is a whole world out there to discover and new friends to make. I often think of what Paul said at the end of 1 Corin 5 about the world and who we are to judge.
Oh how I wish more Christians would get out of their silly bubbles.
Breaking News! “Crucifix Attacks Mahaney As He Is Pontificating About The Cross Being At The Center Of Everything He Does!”
Many left wondering if the Cross agrees with Mahaney:
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/10/26/deeply-religious-newburgh-man-crushed-by-falling-crucifix-loses-leg/
One gentleman leaving the scene was overheard telling his child, “It’s not good to make the Cross cross.”
That's right Muff. Here we have Bob Kauflin's daughter Megan, the one he helped leave her husband (who is opposed to SGM), sharing about where she likes to shop:
“And if you’re one of the well-heeled Biblically obedient women, never! ever! let it get out that you’re way above Kohl’s and only shop at Nordstrom’s & upscale boutiques. The liberal apostate heretics will have a field day with you.”
The inplace to shop for the seeker mega wives was Chico’s and Talbots. But they refused to share the name of their plastic surgeon. :o)
Evie:
If you lived in my town, we could get you to the point where you could run a marathon.
The best advice I can give you is try to find a local running club or group. They can take you from there.
It takes commitment, but it is doable, providing you don’t have a health issue or something.
Let me know if you ever take steps in that direction.
Good writers to read on this matter are Jeff Galloway and John Bingham (who is known as the Penguin, because he is large and not a natural runner and runs with a waddle.) They both have helped many a typical aging athlete finish marathons.
For the UK folks: you know, I’m thinking… that maybe you could help us colonials to get Catherine Tate to come over here and do “interviews” with MD, Piper, et. al.?
I think she would absolutely blow their freakin’ minds! 😉 (She did an incredible riff last year on an episode of the US “The Office” where she was comparing her brain to a penis… it was one of the funniest, craziest bits of comedy I’ve seen in a long time, and she was so deadpan – nothing at all like Nan or the “Am I bovvered?” girl.)
http://thetwentyninth.blogspot.com/2012/09/girl-friday-megan.html
This girl has five little kids, lives in MontgomeryConty, MD (soon to be Louisville), is a single mother with no degree.
Like the Mahaney girls who have everything they need with husbands who lead the children’s ministry, is an elder, or in school as part of the fledgling SGM venture in KY, I think it becomes clear what SGMers have given their tithes to support: the comfortable lifestyles of the Mahaney & Kauflin families.
Do those girls feel the pinch that the women who re their Girltalk blog ever feel?
(Sorry about the technical difficulties)
Thanks Anonymous! And having watched one of my kids run a marathon, I can attest to the fact they come in all shapes and sizes!
@Anon 1, thanks for sharing about Paul Debusman and the others who were ‘thrown under a bus’. It’s good to have a long memory and regard for those who have been ‘shafted’ and disposed of. Would it be fair to suggest that livestock in your country have more legal rights and entitlements than those working for a so-titled ‘Christian’ business? (misnomer if there was one). Those mountain-climbing-over-bodies, bible-toting piranhas would make Gordon Gecko proud.
I also like the two comments that Asinus made in the link. True.
@Numo, yes ! Brilliant idea. It definitely has to be a woman. I think Catherine Tate would pull it off superbly. Happy to help with scripting the questions! I sadly can’t suggest anyone from Australia that could pull it off. We tend to laud models like Megan Gale and Miranda Kerr. Jana Wendt and Mary Kostakidis are good investigators but you need more deadpan humour. Pamela Stephenson was Kiwi born – she might do a good serious nodding psychologist spotlight interview. Maybe if she did a ‘couples interview’ with her partner Billy Connolly it might really take off. I can see Billy drag racing MD on his three-wheeled piece of grunt.
Or Dawn French or Joanna Lumley? I can see Louis Theroux sidling up as he does, but he wouldn’t cut it being of wrong gender and all.
So in finality, if you can’t get Catherine Tate, I nominate Mrs Doyle from Father Ted to interview MD, Piper et al. She doesn’t take ‘no’ for an answer and she will drown them with her cups of tea. Justice (with a splash of milk and a square of sugar) would be served.
Go on go on go on go on go on……
Nordstrom Rack, Zappos & Target for shoes; J.Crew, Madewell & Gap for pants; Anthropolgie
I assume all these except for Target are REAL EXPENSIVE places? (The name “Anthropologie” and its spelling just Reeks of Trendy Overpriced Snob Appeal.)
Dudes, I make high five figures. Most of my clothes are from WalMart and Salvation Army; I got into the habit of shopping at thrift shops some 15 years ago when I was going through hard times.
Haitch – good ideas one and all! But Tate has the deadpan thing absolutely cold – she would be marvelous, imo.
As to no Aussie women fit for the task: what’s going on Down Under? You should have a fair few women who could best MD (et. al.) at both talking *and* arm wrestling (or in a lifeboat race, tennis match, what have you). Perhaps someone could kindly “brain” MD with her tennis racket? (All in fun, peeps, all in fun! This comment is meant to be very tongue in cheek.)
For that matter, you could have Aussie women against the YRRs in an Olympic-style foot race – with torches, natch. 😉
HUG, Are you saying you have to work for your money? Your Dad doesn’t send you your rent checks, and supply you with the money you need to start a business, support your family AND go shopping a lot??
Dude, we need to hook you up with sheep fleecers.
They buy big houses, courtesy of SGM, and then move their kids, grandkids, their kids spouses in with them like the Kauflins have. What is their address? Sovereign Grace Ministries Headquarters, not the private personal property of Bob & Julie Kauflin. That’s part of the deal. That’s why the videos were all shot there in their home. It’s SGM property. And a shelter for the unemployed, homeless Kauflins, who like fancy water and fancy coffee.
Meanwhile, what’s happening in Ricucciville? Who owns their house? Or the Mahaney clan? Surely there were big financial incentives involved in getting your son-in-laws to quit their full time jobs in Gaithersburg and move to Kentucky, taking jobs working for a little church? Heck yeah. All that SGM money was used to set up trust funds for the kids, what do you want to bet? So the girls can always blog on about what a blessing it is to conform to the will of God while never needing to work OR to depend upon their husband’s salaries!
We need to get you connected to these people so they can pay all your bills, buy all your clothes, and provide you with a house – free of charge. Oh wait, you might need to play a little piano. Can you do that? Or make a few conference appearances, which shouldn’t be a big deal. Just find a topic, take 30 minutes to get to it, flail your arms around to make it loon like you believe the crap, then wash, rinse & repeat 5 times in 3 different ways. Simple! Then its no more thrift stores for you – EVER AGAIN!
Oh and… I think Miranda Kerr could pull it off, but Tate is my hands-down fave.
HUG, I get a kick out of the new fancy Goodwill stores in high income areas. We shop there all the time and constantly find clothes with tags still on them. Seriously, who would not shop there for kids clothes at least? It is a great place to find jeans for kids. Someone told me that Joan Kroc (McDonalds) gave a ton of money for new Goodwill stores to be built
Anonymous
“He attends a church plant of our congregation near the University. The pastor is a Boyce grad, then Vandy divinity school, and then Ph.D at Vandy in Church History. The pastor is 28 or so. Very young for a Ph.D. and pastorate. He is mature for his years and a very good pastor. He has done a great job ministering to my nephew.”
Okay, that early comment about Rachel not being x,y, or z enough now makes sense. His pastor is against Rachel, and he (still wet behind the ears) is ministering to your nephew. The Boyce team is after her these days. Not because she is some famous theologian, pastor or conference circuit money maker, but because she has used her blog to effectively raise questions about the types of pastors Boyce grads fawn over.
From her small house in a small southern town, she is shaking up the iron fist grip on evangelicalism these guys have had. She has never claimed to be breaking new ground, or wowing the evangelical world. Instead, she is chipping away at their empire one keystroke at a time.
For example, Driscoll said a bunch of nasty things (what’s new there) and Rachel raised a campaign on her blog to bombard Mars Hill leaders until the status update was removed. A while later, Piper said some silly things about the church being masculine – you can go dig it all up, it is well archived if you google search it – and Rachel asked her male readers to rebut this notion. The supporting posts poured in, not just from her regular blog readers, but from major theologians of many stripes all over the western world. It was a powerful push back, and I think it shook the TGC up a little – it came out of left field for them (she was a “no-name” – no church, no major book etc.) and packed a strong punch.
But the clincher was this past summer. I was off on vaccay, but I did read the blog posts before TGC writer removed them. A blogger over at the TGC wrote a ridiculous post criticizing “50 Shades of Grey” by extensively quoting another writer. That quote – apparently quite old – was basically a “blame women in general for the victimization of a few” – with some offensive analogies about marital sex thrown in, along with a heavy dose of women must submit, even in the bedroom. Anyways, Rachel called out the Gospel Coalition on that one, and had the blogger remove the post. Dee and Deb blog about this as well. So, when a Calvinista Comp hears Rachel’s name, it becomes imperative for them to fault-find.
The reason I mention all this is because, if your nephew had read NT Write, he would know that the prophetic movements of Jesus’ day were not from the Pharisees or priests, but from the commoners, and appealed to the peasants. Jesus takes on this sort of role – the type of popular itinerate prophet, in the leader’s eyes. This is was another reason the Pharisees had so much trouble believing he was the real deal – he didn’t come as one of them. He rose up form the madding crowds.
Prophets speak to their time. So, weather Rachel, or Dee or Deb are relevant in 20, 40 or 80 years is besides the point. God will raise others to proclaim the truth then. But it is the ones who stand up for the least who catch God’s eye (Rach for women in abusive relationships, Dee and Deb for the innocent children). His ways are not (it seems) Boyce’s ways. And that offends the Boyce boys greatly.
“The supporting posts poured in, not just from her regular blog readers, but from major theologians of many stripes all over the western world. It was a powerful push back, and I think it shook the TGC up a little – it came out of left field for them (she was a “no-name” – no church, no major book etc.) and packed a strong punch.
”
Val. You have touched on something very important here. They live in such a bubble and spend a lot of time moderating comments if they blog OR on stages not having to interact with folks who disagree with them. The really big cheeses don’t even take comments. I have gotten a kick out of Al Mohler defenders who come on blogs and chide them for moderating cruel comments when Mohler does not even take comments at all!
The problem for them is they no longer own the one way communication channel. So what to do? Marginalize her. That is what Mohler has already suggested about those who are concerned about encroaching New YRR Calvinism in the SBC. So when you hear the big cheese saying it is ok to “marginalize” people what will the young minds full of mush do?
It is like they are teaching evil as good. It blows my mind.
@numo, I feel really bad I can’t nominate anyone Australian apart from Cathy Freeman or Miranda Kerr. Perhaps Lynne T or Pam can come up with something. But then… I thought of Germaine Greer, though the Poms have had her for a while. Germaine would take them down in a verbal joust as well as a cage fight (I’m an admirer when she’s not stating kooky things). Go Aussie Go !
But yeah – Catherine Tate it is. I own the DVD’s “Sixty six” and “Mrs Ratcliffe’s Revolution” – she’s brilliant.
Evie, A problem in the mega church world was finding credible employment for the pastors grown children. I mean you gotta have some chutzpa to employ your 22 year old son just out of bible college as a sermon “researcher” for 150,000 grand a year. Good thing the church was elder rule so the peasants who paid for it would never see the budget.
0h, and HUG, don’t forget there’s no doubt a load of woollen socks, beanies and mittens you’ll have access to after this posting. I look foward to seeing what inspirations Ravelry will deliver! These guys look like they’re about to embark on a love-bombing exercise (love-yarning).
Val, I think you hit the nail on the head. So much so that I linked to comment on my blog and named that post “Shaking up the Patriarchs”. And if I’m reading the posts and comments here correctly, I think the consensus is that the patriarchs need some serious shaking up.
(and Anon 1, as far as commenting on the old compegal blog, I wish I knew who you were.”
Mara, I learned my lesson from the early days of blogging with being stalked, my clients being contacted about my “integrity” and even receiving threats….from “Christians”, no less. All because I dared to question celebrities and doctrine.
Many have no notion now dark it is out there in many circles that claim Christ. If folks had a clue what goes on “back stage” most would be shocked and appalled. Some would think it cool and go along.
Dee,
I loved the Paine quote! How apropos to boot. Dr. Burk levels some pretty serious charges at Rachel Held Evans. I can understand such charges leveled at say Muff for his rather er… um… unconventional theology and unabashed humanism, but Evans?
Anyway, you’ve put forth an excellent challenge to all here in thinking critically about various OT passages in terms of the hows and whys. And you’re absolutely right that Evangelicals should face them head on rather than the usual Swannee River tap dance around them.
I have been home sick for a few days so have more time on my hands than is good for me. So, after about 3 years of staying away, I went over to Burks blog and read the 50 or so comments on the RHE post. The only thing that changes is the vitriol. Many are questioning RHE’s Christianity or just outright claiming she cannot be. This is becoming quite en vogue in Calvinista circles. (Coming to your church soon)
They display a lot of what really does look like pure hate. I am so glad it is illegal to burn heretics now. I really think some of these YRR guys would throw the faggot on the sticks quite easily. A big “Thank you” to our Deist Founders and the Enlightenment! I am celebrating the 4th right now.
@Anon 1 – no I wouldn’t be surprised at all to hear of the machinations unfortunately. All aided & abetted by the “vengeance will be mine sayeth the Lord” belief which I see cropping up. So you say nothing and do nothing. In general, people will not stand up or stick their necks out in opposition – there’s too much at stake. I would love to see a blogpost or more discussion of this.
And I don’t mean opposition such as all the bluster surrounding RHE at the moment – I just see so much ego, rhetoric and attempts to force opinions in a rough-hewn manner. I mean the soldiers (and soldieresses) such as Amy Smith, who persevere when there’s a price to pay, and the SGM folk who took on the lawsuit. That takes courage, and they’re in it for the long-haul (I love using timber references – my granddad was a bullwhacker as you’d call it).
An old story as I understand it – my father was worked to the bone by a minister and ended up in ‘care’ (call it what you will). The church would not release his saved superannuation etc to be used for his medical costs. My grandfather, a wise man (with strong biceps) outside of the ‘Christian malarky thinking’ flew down and met with said bondage & domination minister. After getting nowhere, my grandfather then said to him, “step outside”. He meant it – he would have flogged the minister in the carpark. The money was released.
Moral of the story: I wish my grandpa was around to get Paul Debussman reinstated (not that he’d want that) or properly paid out. Mohler and Eliff would have looked like chump chops.
Okay, that’s my little violent splurge put to bed now.
I see there’s more comments – my reply was to Anon 1 at 09:23 PM
Prophets speak to their time. So, weather Rachel, or Dee or Deb are relevant in 20, 40 or 80 years is besides the point. God will raise others to proclaim the truth then. But it is the ones who stand up for the least who catch God’s eye (Rach for women in abusive relationships, Dee and Deb for the innocent children). His ways are not (it seems) Boyce’s ways. And that offends the Boyce boys greatly.
What has given me great delight is to know the powerful effect of bloggers. Bloggers can have an equal playing field with national news organizations when it comes to Google searches. For example, if you search “Sovereign Grace Lawsuit” on Google, you can see bloggers: TWW, Brent Detwiler’s blog, SGMRefuge, BGBCsurvivors, interspersed among with Huffington Post, Washington Post, Courier-Journal entries. Go Bloggers!
Haitch, I will tell you one commenter over there that really made me a bit furious. Liz Curtis Higgs. She accused RHE of basically plagurizing and said at the least the book was “blasphemous”. PLEASE! That woman has made bank on the seeker movement for years writing kitchy books to women and speaking at Christian women conferences. Let’s analyze all her teaching. Where did she get her ideas? There is plenty of it to analyze.
Oh man, I feel for you Anon 1 – sounds like your in the thick of the whole Calvinista world – I had never heard of them before I started reading RHE’s blog a few years ago. Sorry that happened. I, fortunately, live in a place where the long arm of the -civil- law reaches into church employment, so we don’t get mass firings if a leader gets grumpy with current staff, but, there is always the “death by a thousand small cuts” to drive people out.
The more I sit back and think about the bigger picture, the more I see that humans are very tribal – we want to belong, and want to be affirmed in our belonging. Christ, on the other hand, called us out of our tribes, from Abraham leaving his family in Haran to the apostles getting scattered beyond their small home-town villages. Once a denomination, culture or system becomes the norm, Christ begins to call us to check it out for ourselves. If we find it wanting and proclaim this (even with the intent to help), suddenly, those we called “our tribe” turn on us. The human need to be validated for our belonging rises above our call to follow Christ.
My thought runs something like this, but I haven’t been as close to it as you Anon 1, because the comfort of belonging outweighed the flitting red flags, the average Christian didn’t see these guys (Piper, Mohler, Mahaney, etc.) for what they really were, since they mostly hid behind their pulpit and busy schedules.
Then, before the doubts could take root, these guys grew to stratospheric levels of popularity (affirming the belonging of the “correct” tribe). Well, those inklings of concern didn’t worry anyone else, I, lowly commoner, must be looking for gnats, etc. Peppered with a heavy dose of “we have the truth” leave our tribe and it is all fluff (Rick Warren puff piece) compared to us or prosperity gospel idol chasers (Joel Osteen). A constant proclaimation of ‘We’ve got the truth, so where else will you go?’ and you’ve got a loyal base that will turn many a blind eye.
But, then there was the blogosphere,
Into this fray, Rachel Held Evan’s blog post – blessed are the uncool – took the internet by storm. Basically, she voiced what many had been feeling, Jesus hung out with the rejects of his day and these “truth pushers” couldn’t give their parishioners the time of day.
Then, the ugliness of who these guys were started to rear it’s head in larger and larger circles. Driscoll’s one-off comments went viral, Piper’s clips about tornadoes or wives taking abuse circulated. Something smelled rotten in the state of Denmark. , these guys were so prevalent, all buddies with each other, and so much admired. Small church pastor, after small church pastor was quoting them, promoting them, falling under their spell, that each small concerned voice sounded so lonely, so not important. And, people didn’t like being outside the tribe (that some even grew up with). Stories on the fringes circled about getting kicked out of the church. Complete banishment. Rejection, isolation.
We are, since the dawn of time, tribal people. We have lived in communities – isolation, to this day, creates a state of distress in humans. So the pull of conformity and belonging clashes with the call of Christ. These leaders get this. They use this. It keeps them at the top. Studies show how easy it is to control a crowd, maintain power, etc. Mostly because it is so hard to be the lonely voice in the wilderness. It flies against our nature.
The irony, of course, is that the tool that got them into the stratosphere of popularity, is the same tool that is chipping away at their empire – the blogosphere. Gatekeeping doesn’t belong to the church leaders anymore, perhaps to the internet techies, but not the church. I like that RHE’s husband is a techie. I think that may be meaningful in some way. Popularity is no longer achieved by having the church leadership promote you, now it is achieved by having open comments, numerous links and positive recommendations.
So, their notions of popularity – get to the leaders, the masses don’t matter – control the comments to have positive PR, is dated. Rachel allows negative comments, and unlike others, doesn’t get angry or snarky in response. She has won people with her kind replies. While they lambast her, accusing her of emotionalism, sensationalism and straw men, she returns kindness (turns that other cheek). Now, they call her a heretic, she replies with her simple love of Christ and the Bible. They say she mocks them, but she never attacks them. She has worn her heart on her sleeve for 3+ years now. They hid in ivory towers. Her readers know her, they also realize they don’t know the Calvinista (Driscoll’s gift of Real Estate Acquisition was out of left field or Piper going from Desiring God to “Masculine” Church and women can’t read scripture at church – primary to secondary issues), many followers don’t know what to expect from them, because they don’t know them. They get Rachel, though. Not that they go to her for their pastoral care, but they listen and respect her, and when these guys lambast her, they look weak. They don’t understand the flow of power these days. Calvin isn’t the best source for the post-modern, wired world we live in today.
Evie, A problem in the mega church world was finding credible employment for the pastors grown children. — Anon1
Other than them Inheriting the Throne/church from their father?
Val, you nailed it.
“Popularity is no longer achieved by having the church leadership promote you, now it is achieved by having open comments, numerous links and positive recommendations”
Bingo. And I would add to that: Transparancy. We have seen Rachels little house. Have you seen Mohler’s? Mahaney’s? There are other examples of transparancy that are not material, too, that are very important. One is that these guys never put themselves in a free style interaction for public consumption. Everything is scripted and when they do engage, it is with an adoring audience. More and more folk are on to them.
Here is something for everyone to enjoy. NT Wright doing a great whirlwind through Ephesians.
http://vimeo.com/15289901
HUG –
“Evie, A problem in the mega church world was finding credible employment for the pastors grown children. — Anon1
Other than them Inheriting the Throne/church from their father?”
– Unless the father only has daughters …. does Mahaney have sons?
Val –
He has one son. Baby of the family. In college somewhere unless he stopped attending.
@Anon 1 11.37pm
LOVED hearing NT Wright, I think I shall stop avoiding these things in the future. “God loves you and has a terrible plan for your wife” (at 6mins) haaaaa !
What do you wanna bet CJ got Tommy Hill to approve SGM paying for Chad Mahaneys flight from Ohio (where he attends college) to Kentucky for the inauguration of SGCL?
It was church related! He needed to be there! They needed to spend time with him!
(Remember a similar scenario in Brents docs?)
I’ll bet you SGM totally covered his expenses. And probably Kelly Murphy’s expenses. And Garrett Ricuccis expenses…
Thanks Mara – that was kind, nice to know I’m not alone in my view of this.
I think Dee and Deb are correct, TGC/Boyce crew want Rachel gone. But, for some reason, they can’t get rid of her (the world doesn’t jump at their commands these days). It is sort of David/Goliath-ish, but they wouldn’t like it painted that way.
Sorry for all the grammatical errors, trying to post and deal with three kids fighting over two toys makes me distracted and I need focused attention to write well (I never was a good speller/grammarian).
I’m in another time zone than this server – my kids go to bed at a decent hour! But my counter is cluttered 😉
I'm looking forward to RHE's book. It reminds me of A.J. Jacob's book, "The Year of Living Biblically," which I really enjoyed.
Does anyone know how the high and mighty evangelical leaders responded to that book? I'll join the knit-along with the other knitty gals. A friend recently asked me to help her knit these early 3rd-4th century Egyptian socks.
http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/threaded/2012/10/taking-a-closer-look-at-an-odd-pair-of-very-very-old-socks/?fb_ref=.UIsdKdy_kyo.like&fb_source=home_multiline
I wonder if the Egyptians mixed their fibers during this time?
Kathi – seriously!?! they look like some 18th C A.D. explorer sent his socks home to England as a joke. Old, sure, but to be thousands of years old, shouldn’t they be discoloured or something?
I can’t wait to see your reproduction of these. One could test the mixed fiber/purity of them to see if it were Kosher (since the Jews have maintained, up until now, a large minority in Egypt). Maybe they were Joseph’s while he and Mary lived there with little Jesus.
Val – well, Egypt has a very dry climate, with the exception of seasonal flooding of the Nile and the areas that are right on the Mediterranean and the Red Sea (plus assorted gulfs).
There are textiles and baskets from the American SW that have been preserved amazingly well, for the same reason.
Those socks are awesome! Egyptian you say? Wasn’t Moses in Egypt? Isn’t he a Patriarch? I’m thinking ‘Walk in the Footsteps of Moses’ (TM) Patriarchal socks as the next big christian fad….Us knit-wits can make a fortune & give maybe, ooooh 1% of our fortune away out of our generous gospel hearts. I have my annointed needles at the ready!
Psst: was there anything else there we could use for ‘The Slippers of Submission: Walk in Sarah’s Footsteps as She walks Ten Paces Behind Moses’. They could Complement each other. (See what I did there?) We’re onto a sure fire winner!
Kathi, Over at Burks blog some are accusing RHE of plagurizing Jacob’s book, “The Year of Living Biblically”. I have not read Jacobs book but since it was Liz Curtis Higgs who accused her I will take it as simple professional jealousy. Of course she had to put the knife in and also say “at worse it is blasphemy”.
I do not understand folks at all.
Der- must read Bible more…Sarah & Abraham….
Anon 1 – Jacob’s is Jewish by heritage and doesn’t practice. He took a look more at the laws and how they could be followed today. He had some pretty humorous points in the book, such as when his wife was mad at him so she sat on every available seat in the house (including the bed) while she was on her period. He subjected himself to sit on a toddler stool and the floor.
What I really think is happening is that Rachel is daring to take “biblical womanhood” to task. There are many fundie leaders who promote biblical womanhood and the Christian women’s speaker circuit who encourage women to live biblically. What does that really mean? I think Rachel’s just taking a literal approach to biblical womanhood. I think that fundie leaders are afraid that if Rachel shows women what it means to “live biblically” they might lose some of their authority over women.
As for those Egyptian socks, my friend and I think they look more like lobster socks. Quite functional.
” There are many fundie leaders who promote biblical womanhood and the Christian women’s speaker circuit who encourage women to live biblically. What does that really mean? I think Rachel’s just taking a literal approach to biblical womanhood. I think that fundie leaders are afraid that if Rachel shows women what it means to “live biblically” they might lose some of their authority over women.
”
I totally agree with you. And I cannot tell you how many women speakers/writers who have made bank off church women’s groups across the country with the comp bit who live like egals in real life. In many cases THEY ARE THE BREADWINNER for their family. Some might want to think twice before they publicly call other women authors plagurists and close to blasphemous.
I have not read RHE’s book and am not defending her. I am just shocked at some who do the same thing for a living and go to great lengths to promote their own books/personal brand name having the nerve to accuse her publicly of plagurism and perhaps almost blasphemy.
“Evie, A problem in the mega church world was finding credible employment for the pastors grown children. — Anon1
Other than them Inheriting the Throne/church from their father?”
HUG, In some cases that is not a possibility. Not all celeb preachers kids are born with Charismatic personalities and public speaking skills. :o)
BTW: Don’t you think it would have been wise of millions to wait for Dobson’s kids to grow up before they took his advice? Ever kept up with Ryan Dobson?
“Evie, A problem in the mega church world was finding credible employment for the pastors grown children. — Anon1
Other than them Inheriting the Throne/church from their father?”
– Unless the father only has daughters …. does Mahaney have sons? — Val
At which point, it comes down to who marries the MegaPastor’s daughter(s) and becomes Heir Apparent to the Throne. (Remember Polishing-the-Shaft Schaapf?) Just like arranged marriages for property and inheritance in Medieval times.
BTW: Don’t you think it would have been wise of millions to wait for Dobson’s kids to grow up before they took his advice? Ever kept up with Ryan Dobson? — Anon1
Let me guess… he went all Marilyn Manson?
Continued prayer for me and others in New England/CT/NJ/NY as we are squarely in the hurricane force wind field for Sandy with the high storm surge that goes with it.
How is RHE’s book “blasphemous”? Blasphemy involves abusing the name of God, which isn’t even in the book’s title so…?
If you read the article/comments, those ancient socks have two toes because they were made to be worn with sandals. Sounds like a good idea to me – I always get blisters from that annoying little strap on flip-flops. (Of course, wearing socks and sandals together is now considered the height of geekiness…) I am also a (part-time) knitter and it sounds like I’m in good company here. : )
I am the nephew mentioned earlier in this comment thread by Anonymous. Let me elaborate, from a young evangelical perspective, why Evans doesn’t terribly interest me as a theologian or a writer. (In doing so, I acknowledge that, in making this public, it’s going to be slightly incongruous.)
First and foremost, I really wish people with little to no seminary education would be more careful about sensitive issues. Evans has, repeatedly and blatantly, demonstrated her commitment to a socially conscious exegesis that is not terribly well-informed by the broader Christian tradition. (The same, unfortunately, can be said for many more conservative theologians.) In my experience, few of the “nones” that have become such a factor in the news lately have been asking these kind of questions. Many that I know had little to know catechesis growing up: they couldn’t tell you the basics of the Christian faith, much less why one might hold such a faith. The creeds have almost entirely disappeared from evangelical life, so it really shouldn’t surprise anyone to see those with little grounding in theology (practical or otherwise) abandon ship for more attractive pastures. While I agree with Evans and those with similar agendas that too often evangelicals have offered little to no real defense for what can turn out to be a reductionist version of Christianity, the solution is not an emergent- liberal-exegetical kind of ecumenicism. Nor is it to downplay the evangelical doctrines of the Gospel as forgiveness of sins (as so many evangelicals, even my beloved N. T. Wright, seem prone to do.) Rather it is a robust commitment to Christian orthodoxy (as defined in the councils) and a reaffirmation of it whereever it can be found. A particular instance on Evans blog that troubles me: her refusal to fellowship with a local church. As an intellectualy minded and theologically-oriented chap myself–whose convictions run contrary to many of the churches near where I live–I understand this problem. But I believe the New Testament calls us as Christians to fellowship locally and in corporate worship with other believers, despite aesthetic or intellectual differences. So I worship a church that includes creationists, fans of contemporary Christian music, credobaptists and complementarians–not because I agree with everything my brothers and sisters do, but because I agree with what is most foundational to orthodox Christianity: commitment to the creeds and to the lordship of Jesus Christ. I don’t feel like I’m saying anything knew or particularly interesting here. But I don’t fit the mold of Evans’ doubting young evangelical, and many of the evangelicals my age I know don’t either. If I’m going to take Evans seriously, she’s going to need to interact with the broader Christian tradition on issues like evolution, homosexuality, and complementarianism. (Not all of my convictions are opposite of hers, either–we have just come to them through very different channels.+)
Awe Hester I will pray for you, and everyone else on here affected and everyone else in general affected…
…except for John Piper – because he a) doesn’t believe things just happen, so if he gets blown away, he’ll feel OK (well, he says he will feel OK), b) I can’t figure out how prayer fits into his theology anyways, and he likely doesn’t want my prayer (I’m too heretical, etc.) and c) I would sort of like those “fingers of God – or is it fist of God – to get him this time, shake him up a little, it might calm his random ‘weather from God’ proclamations down (taste of own medicine, etc.)…
You can pray for us “other coasters” when the Big One hits and the sea rises up to swallow our cities. You can specifically pray that we don’t strangle the John Pipers of the world who will be sure to point out how much we all deserve it (instead of helping out).
I am not feeling very charitable to self-appointed (untested) prophets right now who don’t have open season on their comment section.
Praying for those on the east coast. Please keep in mind those in the far northwest as well as there are tsunami warnings in effect right now.
Hester – I found some free patterns on Ravelry that are Japanese split toe sock inspired, so you could make yourself a pair! It would certainly help us Portlanders get past the stigma of wearing socks with Birkenstocks!
More Tsunami warnings? They were called off last night – it was a plate-rub quake, not the slide (over-under) type that normally causes the doozies.
Did another quake happen? Yuck, I am surprised Pacific North America has been so calm, with Japan and S. America and Indonesia (south Pacific) all getting rocked, wouldn’t it logically follow that N. America needs to move a bit to balance it all out?
My 9 year old informed me he wanted to be in an earthquake this morning (after hearing about the Haida Gwaii one last night). Um, not so much. No power = no electronic games, heat or warm water. He would now like to be on vacation and feel a quake, then go home to his “normal life”. I really need to get him our of our Piper-worshipping church, he might get the urge to make proclamations.
IronClad and TedS – thank you for giving me your thoughts on my question re: OT law. I will have to think on this a bit longer because I struggle with knowing exactly what to think on it. Pondering has become quite a part of my life lately!
I’ve also found that stepping away from church for a while is helping me “find my way” closer to Christ. I did not attend church this morning, but instead worshipped on the way to grocery shopping, while listening to Mumford & Sons. 😉
I live inland in one of the Mid-Atlantic states, and the forecast is for very high winds and flooding (up to 6″ of rain possible, or it could change to snow, or…. nobody really knows).
It’s the biggest hurricane to be headed for this area in about 40 years – the last one that nailed this area (Hurricane Agnes) was hugely destructive.
Am sure many others who aren’t on the actual coast are going to be feeling negative effects of the storm.
Please keep praying for us!
*
Socks: yep, the Japanese even have split toe boots – and sneakers, for that matter. You can find some on eBay, though most are for ninja costume outfits. 😉
@ Val:
The surge is looking to be the biggest problem…5-10′ along the CT coast last I heard. Thankfully I live on a hill but several of family friends are included in the mandatory evacuation orders that are starting to be issued by the towns. If I (and others here) don’t show up again for a few days we are probably dealing with widespread power outages.
Speaking of earthquakes – ironically enough there was an earthquake in New England a week or two ago. Only 4.5, though. I felt it sitting at the organ in my church’s sanctuary. There was a troop of Boy Scouts downstairs and at first, when the candlesticks started to rattle, I wondered what on earth they could be getting up to down there…
I’ve been seriously debating whether I should go over to Denny Burk’s place and post what I’ve said here–that Burk, etc., cannot shove RHE out of the church because she’s a believer and doesn’t belong out here with us agnostics, freethinkers, skeptics and atheists. They have to deal with what she’s saying. Thing is, I would post under my legal name, because when I get annoyed, I WANT people to know who I am and know I do not suffer fools gladly. (I’ve got a long, long, LONG and very profane history of that!) However, I value my anonymity over here, so I will restrain myself, because it’s not likely that anything I could say would change Denny Burk’s mind.
But I really do think that Liz Curtis Higgs has a lotta nerve! That junk she churns out is so insulting, I swear! She has made a ton of money off Bible pablum for women and then she has the gall to be unhappy with RHE? She needs to get over herself.
SWD, funny how you can get different responses. I saw the comment by Liz Curtis Higgs (I have absolutely no idea who she is – an author of womanly woman books on how to be a womanly woman I assume?) and thought ‘meh – aluminium foil hat brigade’. When people start throwing around blasphemy assertions on blogs I just think it’s bonkers territory. But obviously some here don’t think she’s a space cadet?
Those Egyptian socks were something else, but am I the only one who wished for more and closer-up pictures? I have to thank Kathi for turning me on to another blog about another favorite thing–threads.
I think I’ll stick to trying to knit socks, rather than nalbinding. The latter is apparently done with a 2-3 inch needle (looks like a large tapestry needle, I’m thinking). It looks like it would be time-consuming.
I should note that crochet is my first love and I’d crochet everything if I could. Socks, however, don’t work so well with crochet, so I had to learn to knit so I could make sweaters and socks. And I did get the yarn ordered, so hopefully by the time I get to stay with my folks, I can plop myself in a chair near the TV and just knit away.
I feel bad for the people on the East Coast in the path of the storm. I heard the NYC subways shut down as of 7 pm and may stay shut until after Wednesday, so I asked a friend of mine, “uh, so how does anyone get to work?” Well, they don’t work, or something. I can work at home if need be (of course, I’m in Arizona, so this doesn’t affect me) but I can’t even imagine the many, many people who are hourly workers and who are going to miss out on two, three or more days of pay because they can’t work due to the storm. That’s a serious economic hit on NYC. 🙁 Y’all stay safe, y’hear?
Dee and Deb –
Are you two up and running in your neck of the woods? You’ve been quiet today. Hope it’s not due to weather issues and hoping you are all safe.
Oh, if you want to buy the Year of Biblical Womanhood – it’s release week starts tomorrow – but not at Lifeway. I am going to the most conservative Christian store I can find around here to purchase or order a copy. Then we can see how the Burk, Mohler, Piper (and the sudden appearance of numerous, as-yet unheard of female guest bloggers in his defence), and Strachan do in their critique.
Southwestern Discomfort – My friend is going to try and crochet these first, since she is a crocheter by nature. I don’t crochet, but I can visualize how to knit these. I still think this project that her friend wants is very weird! I need to bookmark this link – it looks like a fun read every once in a while. Most definitely better than reading about Mahaney, Piper or Driscoll!
Those socks are fantastic! Amazing to have such things from antiquity so well preserved!
I also saw that comment by Liz Curtis Higgs and think she’s a fine one to talk. I have read a couple of her books and she tends to take stories and characters from the Bible and set them in more recent times, like eighteenth century Scotland or even contemporary times. Seems it’s ok for her to take someone else’s story/idea and put her own spin on it but not for Rachel Held Evans.
Dear all in Sandy’s zone – stay safe pls and thinking of you. Have been trying to find decent satellite photos on NOAA but no luck and I don’t want to clog up the servers anyhow when you need access to the information yourself. Take care and buckle down.
@ Val:
“You can specifically pray that we don’t strangle the John Pipers of the world who will be sure to point out how much we all deserve it (instead of helping out).”
Yes, I wonder if God sent Hurricane Sandy so John Piper would repent. Although, given the track, I think it’s more likely he wants Tim Keller to repent.
Sylvester’s gnat.
Hello,
Has anyone seen the cartoon of Denny Burk with the caption: Poor thinking on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on our part. Now will you please take your silly @ss RHE problem down the hall….
Denny, as you recall in the Apostle Paul’s letter to the Romans, specifically chapter seven, as the law brings death, yet we are released from the Law and united to Christ. Denny are you straining at gnats? Why would anyone released from the Law, want to return it. Was it not the Law that brought us to Christ? Woe to me, who shall deliver me from this body of sin and death?
I thank God it is through Jesus our Lord!
Yes! the scripture answers with a clear voice : I thank God through Jesus, I am delivered from this body of sin and death!, to serve a living God, who shed his blood for me, paying what I could not, doing what I could not. Doing what the Law required. Now, because of what Jesus has done for us, we are free from the Law, who’s spirit kills, to serve a risen Savior who said I am the way, the truth, the life!, thus freeing each believer to be about honoring and glorifying God, with joy!
Is Rachel making fun of God and the scriptures?
Let’s take a closer look:
Is she not using her freedom in Christ to demonstrate the absurdity of her detractor’s position, as we believers, are no longer under the Law, but alive to Christ and now under the Law of Grace . Death to Rachel, can no longer hold her. But Christ, who is her life! Her detractors can follow the Law all they want. But for Rachel, she shall follow Christ!
Consider Carefully?
You Decide.
IronClad
Southwestern Discomfort
We Christians deceive ourselves constantly. I believe , deep down inside, many people are fearful of their own salvation. So, they make up a bunch of rules , which, of course, they keep since it is their rules, and then point out how they, of course, are REAL Christians. In their world, there is no place for struggle. There is no place for growth-you must have already arrived at their high plain. That is why i so disagree with John Piper when he told a man he was in sin because he did not like the doctrine of election. We all must be at the place of Piper and todays admiring Piperettes rarely ask why.
There is a terrible sin that is currently affecting todays Calvinistas. They claim that they hold the “keys of authority” to the kingodm of heaven and, as such, they say who is in or who is out. Please don’t get me wrong-their are some basic beliefs that define orthodox Christianity. A practicing Hindu cannot say, because he thinks Jesus is a good guy, that he is now a Christian. But, we must be very, very careful not to shoot our own. In the end, God makes the determination and I do not plan to do His job for Hi,.
RHE is asking the questions of her generation. And the church better start shutting up and listening. I sure as heck am doing so. We need to find better ways to speak the faith in a way that is meaningful to others.
Wait, Kamilla’s here, too???? Cool. Maybe she will answer the questions I asked her over on Burk’s blog!
thatmom – I’d love to know what you asked over on Burk’s blog. I refuse to go over there anymore, so . . .
There is a terrible sin that is currently affecting todays Calvinistas. They claim that they hold the “keys of authority” to the kingodm of heaven and, as such, they say who is in or who is out. — Dee
Whatever would God do at the Great White Throne without the Predestined Elect to whisper in His ear like Grima Wormtongue or Secret Police Informants, informing Him who was REALLY Saved? “ME SHEEP! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT! HIM GOAT!”
I also saw that comment by Liz Curtis Higgs and think she’s a fine one to talk. I have read a couple of her books and she tends to take stories and characters from the Bible and set them in more recent times, like eighteenth century Scotland or even contemporary times. — Estelle
Why do I have this horrible mental image of David & Bathsheba or Hosea & Gomer as a Regency bodice-ripper?
Yes, I wonder if God sent Hurricane Sandy so John Piper would repent. Although, given the track, I think it’s more likely he wants Tim Keller to repent. — Hester
Or whether God sent Hurricane Sandy to Punish all the rest of us for doubting The Anointed John Piper. God seems to have nothing else to do but Punish Punish Punish Punish Punish.
“O GREAT CHEMOSH!!! O GREAT BAAL!!! SEND DEATH AND DESTRUCTION DOWN UPON THESE MY ENEMIES!!!!!”
— from some Fifties “Bible Epic” movie, just before a considerably-sanitized child sacrifice to Baal-Chemosh
P.S. Four years ago I heard how Obama’s election was “God’s Judgment on America’s Sins”, and I expect to hear more of the same if he wins a second term (after Sandy throws a last-minute “October Surprise” joker into the deck).
I saw the comment by Liz Curtis Higgs (I have absolutely no idea who she is – an author of womanly woman books on how to be a womanly woman I assume?)… — Haitch
“Womanly woman”? Is that anything like “What is Thy Will, Milord Husband? How might I better Submit?”
…and thought ‘meh – aluminium foil hat brigade’. When people start throwing around blasphemy assertions on blogs I just think it’s bonkers territory. But obviously some here don’t think she’s a space cadet? — Hatich
Never underestimate the “bonkers territory” of a True Believer. Especially when Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory is added to the mix.
And many primitive peoples believe that “space cadets” are some sort of godly(TM) oracle channeling God or gods.
Dee said: There is a terrible sin that is currently affecting todays Calvinistas. They claim that they hold the “keys of authority” to the kingodm of heaven and, as such, they say who is in or who is out.
Dee: This idea that you expressed above to me is crux of so many of the abuse issues. They are so preoccupied with “sin” and judging everybody’s theology that they miss the blatant issues:
– The Grace Community pastors I spoke were solely focused on “my sin” of am I tending my house/husband well, that they missed the most obvious issue: a pastor was suing moms/adult kids for $500K. When I told them about the spiritual abuse, they defended my former pastor, dismissed it, etc.
– SGM so focused on reconciliation and forgiveness from victims, they “forgot” to call authorities to report crimes. They felt they needed to handle it biblically (of course ignoring Rom 13:1 – Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God).
They have in their mind the perfect chain of events for what to do with what they perceive is the sin problem and how to handle it and if one step is missed, they can’t let go of it. It is true legalism. Meanwhile, the victims get re-victimized by their spiritual leaders who should have been protecting/comforting them.
Long time reader, first time commenter.
There are so many smart and compassionate people here! I’ve been stretched, positively, in my faith just by reading all the conversations.
I just wanted to direct anyone interested in understanding the Old Testament better to some resources that helped me after I threw up the patriocentric pill I had swallowed. Perhaps some will find them helpful.
“Our Father Abraham” by Marvin Wilson
“Our Lost Legacy” by John Garr
“Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus” by David Bivin
“Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus” and “Walking in the Dust of Rabbi Jesus” by Lois Tverberg
Two other websites that have tons of resources are double yous dot ffoz dot org (First Fruits of Zion) and double yous dot jerusalemperspective dot com (great articles).
Putting the Bible in its proper context really helped me understand the questions that pop up while reading it.
@ HUG:
“Four years ago I heard how Obama’s election was ‘God’s Judgment on America’s Sins,’ and I expect to hear more of the same if he wins a second term (after Sandy throws a last-minute ‘October Surprise’ joker into the deck).”
I’ve already heard a “powers that be” weather machine claim…as predicted.
Of course the verse that you quoted has interesting implications as well.
“For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God”
How would you interpret the words “instituted by God”…if it mean that God is responsible for setting up those governments doesn’t it follow that He either condones the actions of those governments or that He at least must share responsibility in what they do?
No More Perfect,
Well, after I pointed out that it appears that RHE’s book, at least as depicted in the video clip since I haven’t yet read it, shines the light on the silly interpretations the patrios insist are “biblical.” I listed some of the similar interpretations I have seen in the patrio world that really are even crazier than Evan’s observations. Of course Kamilla didn’t like that and decided to call me names (always easier than engaging in thoughtful discourse) and accused me of lying (another familiar tactic for those who cannot have a normal conversation following a straight line of thinking) and then made sure we all know she is NOT a complementarian but rather embraces patriarchy. So I asked her if she could explain the difference from her perspective seeing as all the patriocentrists I know claim to be complementarians, too. (Doug Phillips, James and Stacy McDonald, as do the wide variety of people discussed here.) She blew me off basically claiming moral superiority as she does everywhere else. And can I say, it sure seems that the patrio women are, in general, mean.
Julie Anne, I maintain they are REDEFINING what is sin to fit their comp/pat/Sovereign God definitions and agenda.
And can I say, it sure seems that the patrio women are, in general, mean. — ThatMom
During the all-time peak of the Ku Klux Klan in the Roaring Twenties, it was the Klan Ladies’ Auxilliary who were the most vicious. (Most Klearly Klan?) These Sweet and Winsome White Klanswomen were often the ones who goaded their husbands into being More Klan Than Thou.
Another analogy is Imelda & Ferdinand Marcos during the Phillipine Revolution, with the US Senator on the phone with Ferd trying to talk him into cutting and running to avoid further bloodshed with Imelda screeching in the background at Ferd to massacre the protestors, kill them all, you have the POWER. And then there’s Elena & Nicolai Ceausecsu; again, it was obvious who wore the pants in that couple.
I’ve already heard a “powers that be” weather machine claim…as predicted. — Hester
The same Sekrit Weather Machine so powerful it was even causing Global Warming on Mars as well as Earth?
There’s a book I’d like to recommend, from the “For Dummies” series:
Conspiracy Theories and Secret Societies for Dummies. Great read.
thatmom
I think I scared her off with my warning. But, I do not want another “situation” here.
HUG
Thank you for my Monday morning laugh!
“Why do I have this horrible mental image of David & Bathsheba or Hosea & Gomer as a Regency bodice-ripper?”
Julie Anne
And that is why they are so afraid of us basement residing, bathrobe wearing, Cheetos consuming bloggers!
Jerzy
Thank you for these resources. I will repeat them
“Our Father Abraham” by Marvin Wilson
“Our Lost Legacy” by John Garr
“Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus” by David Bivin
“Sitting at the Feet of Rabbi Jesus” and “Walking in the Dust of Rabbi Jesus” by Lois Tverberg
double yous dot ffoz dot org (First Fruits of Zion)
double yous dot jerusalemperspective dot com (great articles).
Fendrel
Could you please tell me to which comment you were responding so I can see the context. I really like the questions you asked.
Dee, I suddenly thought of that episode of The Andy Griffith Show where Aunt Bea and her friends stage a protest at the courthouse and Barney is frantically saying “What we’ve got here is a situation, Andy, a real situation!”
Hi Jersy! Thanks for that great list!!!
I just wanted to address this issue:
I think Evans could ramp it up a bit as well. For example, she could explain how Jesus fulfilled the law and how the dietary restrictions were lifted in the New Testament.
As I have been reading RHE’s book, two things have become clear about why she wrote it the way she did: 1) In her introduction, she says she’s going to do “no picking and choosing.” If it was feasible for her to follow something in the Bible concerning women, she would do it. Obviously, she couldn’t follow things like having Dan take another wife. But she was doing her best not to pick and choose. 2) If there was a group of women somewhere in the world that interpreted/practiced a certain passage in a certain way, Rachel was going to try to learn about that interpretation and practice, and try it out if she could. And it didn’t matter to her whether the group of women was Christian or Jewish. She discusses this in her chapter about sleeping in a tent in April. 3) She is then going to give her own thoughts on the passage, which are Christian egalitarian in nature.
So yeah– maybe she could, or should, have mentioned that Christians believe certain OT ceremonial laws have been fulfilled in Christ and no longer apply. And maybe she should have stated her methods in full at the beginning of the book, rather than scattering them through different sections. But she wasn’t just accidentally, or in ignorance, refusing to follow standard evangelical reasons as to why they pick and choose the way they do. She was deliberately going a different way.
So complementarian evangelical blogs that are faulting her for “doing it wrong” when living out biblical womanhood, are, I believe, missing the point.
Sorry — that should have been “three things have become clear” not “two.”
@ HUG & Dee:
“Why do I have this horrible mental image of David & Bathsheba or Hosea & Gomer as a Regency bodice-ripper?”
Heck, David’s entire life story would make an excellent soap opera. Let’s not even get into that Absalom incident involving concubines and a public rooftop.
“3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.”
I do have a question about this. What about the believers under Nero? And then on to Diocletian and Galerius?
What did they do wrong and how did they not submit to authorities? Such as refusing to bow to statues, etc?
Could it be we are reading this through modern eyes and not 1st Century eyes?
If we apply it today, then it would be a sin not to obey the civil authorities and bow to whatever god they insist you obey. It would have been a sin for the step children of the Reformation to refuse to have their infants baptized. It would have been a great sin for Felix Manz to disagree with Zwingli since the gov backed Zwingli. And American Founding would be a great sin. Reading through modern eyes also means that God institutes evil regimes like Idi Amin.
Dee,
Of course, my bad, it was referring to the comment by Julie Anne (at 11:10AM) 3 posts or so before mine.
@ ThatMom:
“Of course Kamilla didn’t like that and decided to call me names (always easier than engaging in thoughtful discourse) and accused me of lying (another familiar tactic for those who cannot have a normal conversation following a straight line of thinking) and then made sure we all know she is NOT a complementarian but rather embraces patriarchy.”
Does that mean Kamilla believes women need a male spiritual head/intercessor to be saved? That is the only logical inference from a man being a “high priest” of the home – priests perform intercessory functions, ergo he is interceding for his family in some way above and beyond normal prayer intercession (which can be performed by any Christian for anyone else).
If so, Kamilla (and all matriarchs) better hope she dies before her husband and her sons don’t apostatize, or she could be left high and dry.
(Also, if it’s allegedly so difficult to tell if you’re truly saved in conservative Calvinist theology, no woman can ever be sure of her salvation because she can never know for sure if her “priest” is a hypocrite. So assurance of salvation is completely unavailable to women in patriarchal theology, even though Scripture places no gender boundaries on it. Yet another reason patriarchy is chemically pure crap TO THE CORE.)
“If so, Kamilla (and all matriarchs) better hope she dies before her husband and her sons don’t apostatize, or she could be left high and dry.”
Better ask Kamilla if she is married, first. :o)
@ Anon 1:
I always read that verse to mean submit to the civil authorities UNTIL they ask you to explicitly violate core Christian beliefs – i.e., along the lines of emperor worship or child sacrifice. I would also include non-salvific, but very central conscience issues (like baptism and choice of church attendance) as exceptions to this submission. Past that, however, we’re dealing with secondary debatable things and it gets more dicey. There has to be SOME limit to that submission or else the church would have disbanded at the first hint of persecution.
KR Worgazer,
In other words, it is hard enough to even attempt this living out biblical womanhood as it is. For several reasons….One cannot practice Polygamy without going to jail. And of course, we should not hire a maid to have sex with our husbands if we cannot conceive. And we cannot be a “judge” for a nation if we want to. And we might go to prison if we drive a tent peg into a male enemy’s head.
I guess I am still a bit confused as to exactly what is a “Biblical Womanhood”???? I have asked for about 15 years now and the answers are all over the place! The worst part is my Savior is a MALE so that limits me on being Christllike since I am female and gender is so very important and even salvic for so many. I can see why so many women are so confused. It is not the spiritual. It is gender!
@ Anon 1:
One has to wonder about the vehement insistence on patriarchy if she wasn’t. But who knows? The Botkin sisters are single and they’re some of the movement’s most effective mouthpieces.
I think the Botkins are ok because they must stay with their dad until married for the “male spiritual covering” part of their religion.
Fendrel: Good questions. Of course in spiritually abusive churches, they are known for twisting scripture, leaving out scripture, and doing whatever manipulating they can of scripture to fit into their whacked theology of Sin. It’s all about sin, you see – everyone else’s sin. Who needs to government when there is sin to take care of in the church first? Sin supersedes all else. Crime is a word reserved for those outside of church, so they feel they are exempt from dealing with it (as evidenced by SGM, my former church, Calvary Chapel, HOFCC, IFBs, etc)
Bravo for Attorney Susan Burke who seems to have a good grasp of the law and of abuse and will use the God-ordained authorities and laws to make sense of this mess.
thatmom
Barney Fife would make a good word picture for some of these folks!
KR Wordgazer
I had absolutely no problems with what she did in her book. in fact, I thought it was clever and wished I had thought of it!
I think highly of her, enough to know that she understands the relationship of the OT and NT. Many people who will be reading this book will not be a sophisticated in their understanding as she is. That is why I wish she had offered an explanation to help those who are not schooled in this area.
Anon1
Yep-“And American Founding would be a great sin. Reading through modern eyes also means that God institutes evil regimes like Idi Amin.”
Anon1
Kamilla is not married unless she married secretly in the past couple of months.
“I think the Botkins are ok because they must stay with their dad until married for the “male spiritual covering” part of their religion.”
I just had a thought about this patriarchy thing with single daughters remaining at home until dad finds an appropriate spouse. How old are the Botkin girls – they seem to be getting up in years (comparatively speaking with other patriarchal/quiver-full families) . Another patriarchal family, Maxwell’s, have daughter, Sarah, who must be in her early 30s now. With the full-quiver mindset, it’s interesting that the dad’s have such high standards for their daughters that they haven’t found the right spouse. Do they not realize that by their high standards for courting, they are interfering and going against the quiver-full/Reconstructionist mindset of being fruitful and multiplying? Their biological clock is ticking and they won’t be able to have the 8+ children that Doug Phillips talks about in his 200-year plan at this rate. I wonder when Doug Phillips and others will come outright and tell these patriarchal dads that they are sinning by interfering with God’s plan of being fruitful by not getting their daughters married off earlier.
Jerzy said,
Good way of putting it lol!
Julie Anne,
So, is God responsible or is He just a divine version of the CIA setting up and toppling governments without taking any responsibility for His actions?
Thinking of you all in Hurricane Sandy’s path.
Julie Anne, There are patriarchal daughters out there in their mid to late 20’s who have never had an exam if you get my drift. One, who ran away a few years back and was taken in a sympathetic couple found she had a huge ovarian cyst on her first visit. And the patriarchal group she was affiliated with is well known and friend of Mohler’s! Big into the FIC thing.
Fendrel
I think I understand now. God allows free will. In so doing, terrible things occurred. There are two strains of thought within Christianity. God sovereignly allows these things to occur and, in fact, sends tornados, etc as an expression of His disapproval for things-abortion, Hollywood, deep fried Twinkies etc. Another point of view is that bad things are allowed to happen but God puts a cap on it by instituting stop gap measures to prevent true anarchy -police, courts Congress, etc. However, since these institutions are madeup of sinful humans, bad things will happen and then we have a right to overthrow such a government.
We are commanded to pray for those in ur government but we are also supposed to help those who are being oppressed. The problem is “How to draw the line.’ I am a member of this second line of thinking. It certainly is not easy trying to figure out where the line is.
Anon1 said:
I guess I am still a bit confused as to exactly what is a “Biblical Womanhood”???? I have asked for about 15 years now and the answers are all over the place!
I think that is really the point RHE’s book is trying to make. There is no “biblical womanhood,” if that term is used to mean a certain way of living and being a woman.
Dee said:
I think highly of her, enough to know that she understands the relationship of the OT and NT. Many people who will be reading this book will not be a sophisticated in their understanding as she is. That is why I wish she had offered an explanation to help those who are not schooled in this area.
Yes, I think that is a valid point. I think the book would have been strengthened if she’d anticipated some of the responses to it and addressed them in her introduction. But I think that the book still encourages all people who claim to practice the Bible, to hold a little more loosely to their certainty that there’s only one way to do do this, and that they have it figured out, while everyone else who practices it differently is just getting it wrong.
KR, Even if she had chosen strictly the NT to live out she would come in contact with Joanna who left her husband back at the Palace and traveled around with Jesus helping to support Him. And Sappira who chose to “obey” her husband’s plan and was struck dead for it.
Anon 1 said:
And Sappira who chose to “obey” her husband’s plan and was struck dead for it.
Actually, I don’t think the text ever really says whose idea it was, or that Sapphira was just going along with her husband. I always kind of thought they were in it by mutual agreement. But the text isn’t clear.
However, you have a valid point. There’s a lot in the NT that contradicts the idea of unilateral wifely submission, obedience to authority making one non-responsible, homemaking as a woman’s highest calling, and the whole complementarial/patriarchal ball of wax.
Dee,
Ah yes, we’ve walked this path before 🙂
But to repeat an old argument…if I KNOW that, given a gun, my wife will shoot our neighbor. If I then give her a gun anyway and, sure enough, even though it is by her own free will, she shoots our neighbor, certainly I share some responsibility in the act.
Since God is omniscient, giving us free will when He KNOWS that we will misuse it, means He must also share the responsibility for the evil that we commit.
There is no escape…
Fendrel – well, howdy, stranger! Nice to see you in these parts. 🙂
@ Dee:
Then who is Kamilla’s covering/authority? Does she live at home with her parents? With her brother? An uncle? A male second cousin twice removed? If she truly accepts Phillips/Botkin-style patriarchy, she needs one to be saved. If she doesn’t have one…well…
The Puritans – though thankfully they didn’t believe in this spiritual headship/covering crap, that’s entirely new – were entirely consistent in implementing “family government” in New England. Single householders were ILLEGAL unless they were coming ahead to set up a house for the rest of their family. So who is Kamilla’s “governor”? What “family government” is she submitting to?
These things are inherent in patriarchy. This question needs to be asked. The answer will reveal whether or not Kamilla is a consistent patriocentrist, or just someone appropriating the word to mean “really conservative views on gender.” I personally find it very telling she would not explain her views on differences between complementarianism and patriarchy to ThatMom.
Hester – maybe the less said, the better. (At least here, on-list.)
Not meant as a criticism!
OH NO! The first power flicker… I might be forcibly signed off soon. The wind is getting pretty loud now against my plywood-covered windows.
@ Numo:
You’re probably right…
Hester – stay safe!
We had a brief power outage here, along with high winds and rain lashing at the windows, and I’m sure there’s localized flooding even now.
Prayers and good wishes for everyone’s safety!
Wow, you really miss a lot when you’re away from TWW for a couple of days.
My thoughts and prayers are with all the folks in the path of the storm. Stay safe and may the peace of the Lord be with you.
Dee, I think it would be nice to have a little knitting page to go with the cooking page. 🙂
Praying for all you guys in the path of Sandy. Gosh, I sure hope the power doesn’t stay off for too long. Thinking of you all.
Then who is Kamilla’s covering/authority? Does she live at home with her parents? With her brother? An uncle? A male second cousin twice removed? If she truly accepts Phillips/Botkin-style patriarchy, she needs one to be saved. If she doesn’t have one…well…
I believe the Bayly Brothers are her covering. She fawns over their every word, metaphorically bats her eyelashes at their big strong manliness, sucks up to them by agreeing with everything they say, and belittles anyone who disagrees with them. They probably have a barter deal going – “you agree with everything we say and suck up to us, and we’ll make sure you’re covered.” But the sad fact is, she is not married and doesn’t have children… and thus can’t be saved thru childbearing.
Numo,
Hello there…nice to see you are alive and well! Become an atheist yet? (hope springs eternal!)
@Jerzy, thanks for sharing the resources list. I use ‘Sticky Notes’ function to cut and paste recommendations as it’s quick at the time – my desktop is full ! Now if only I could figure out a way to select all the ‘Sticky Notes’ and put into one document instead of having to do it individually…
Fendrel – Nope, not yet! 😉
Fendrel
You old coot!!! I know who you are. I rarely check the email addresses of commeters because, in general, i like to give people the right to privacy. But, there was something about your last response…. So, where in the world are you? How are you doing? How’s your wife? Tell me why you chose the name Fendrel. Also, may I let our readers know, in a general sense, who you are?
You know I will always answer you so let’s leave it at that for now. I want to hear about you. We can argue the atheism/faith question on the next set of comments! So glad to hear from you.
Numo
How in the world did you know it was him? I always knew you were perceptive. I needed one go round.
@ everybody:
Darn…an IFB appears to have beaten Piper to the judgment call!
Apparently this guy and the listener-ship of his talk radio show are the only remaining faithful remnant in the American church. They’re having prayer meetings to plead for our collective souls…with this caveat:
“The storm is projected to come right over my house, so it might curtail the prayer meeting if the power is knocked out.”
Because when the rest of us get walloped by a hurricane, God is “systematically destroying America.” When they get hit by a hurricane, it’s unfortunate circumstances that may “curtail” the prayer meeting…
http://defendproclaimthefaith.org/blog/?p=2984
Hester
She is inconsistent.She lives alone, from what i can tell. She likes to cook and she likes to go after anyone who is not a comp in the way it is defined by the Calvinistas. Her protestations to the contrary ring hollow. One male reader from our blog said that he barely escaped catration after one mild disagreement. So, she likes men who agree with her and she takes out men who disagree with her. Not your typical winsome sort.
BTW, I have been thinking about saying that God told me the NE storm is God’s revenge on the Puritans for the witch trials but decided the storm is no joking matter.
Hester
Pease report in when you are able. I am praying for you.
Leila
The Bayly brothers. Say no more!
Fendrel, you were commenting before my time last year, but I recognised you instantly. I might not be great with names, but I usually remember a face ! Fandral from WoW your moniker?
Fendrel, I second numo’s greeting! Take off yer shoes, set a spell, glad y’all’s back!
Hester and all in path of storm: Praying for you all big time.
KR: You gott read Sapphira through Patriarchal eyes (wink) then explain why obeying her husband got her killed!
Leila
The Bayly brothers. Say no more!
Dee, she is the sycophant-in-chief at that blog. Honestly, I have never seen anyone lay it on quite so thick.
Haitch,
yes…and Muff Hiya!!
haven’t left…pop in every now and then .. but you guys have gotten BIG…and doing a good job!
Dee – From what he said + his avatar pic.
I think we can sense old friends pretty quickly around here, new names or no…!
Dee
I’m sitting 60 miles above NYC, I need to joke about Sandy. Presently, Atlantic City is getting pummeled. That IFB preacher has got it all wrong. It’s not about homosexuality, it’s about gambling…
Sharing my latest find from the patriocentrists. This came via Michelle Duggar’s FB page and will guarantee a rise in blood pressure. Note: The author is a young guy……
http://www.stevemacias.com/ladies-from-kings-daughters-to-queens/
Leila, agree about the thickness of the on pouring on the Bayly blog. Truly embarrassing.
Steve D – never mind that Atlantic City, Ocean City and Long Beach Island *always* get pummeled when a hurricane hits the Jersey Shore…
So: it must be about shore resorts! 😉
I’m having to joke, too, to keep from paying too much attention to the wind and rain and falling tree branches.
thatmom – that link is like reading a chapter from a patriocentric evangelicals’ version of The Handmaid’s Tale. . .
Numo
It’s the skimpy bathing suits at the shore. Yikes! maybe He’s upset that Jersey Shore was cancelled :0
Leila
Why does she protest that she is not a Calvinista?
Fendrel
We got big because of people like you who served as our unofficial “atheist in residence.”
Numo
I was one step behind you.
Prayers appreciated tonight, friends. I’m home alone with my little girl. There’s water in my basement and two trees down in my yard already, and we’re right in the storm’s path but the worst hasn’t hit yet. Electric company called to say we might not have power for a week, but thankfully it hasn’t gone out yet.
Steve
i read that comment by the IFB strange pastor. He also said that both Obama and Romney are going to celebrate homosexuals in the military and the Republican/Democrat. So, he hates everyone equally. BTW-he doesn’t say anything about a certain IFB pastor who was having sex with an underage teen. i guess because she was female and he was male-it was just fine.
Yep, I’ll give you 2 to 1 odds that it is about gambling…
Praying that you get through this without power outages.
Numo/Steve
I just figured it out. It is because of Snooki!
Dee – but Snooki’s changed her ways!
Thatmom – did you notice where the blog owner and his wife go to church? http://cotks.org/ It’s a CREC (Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches). I have corresponded with someone who attended one of these churches and her story of spiritual abuse and spousal abuse were horrific. These folks are connected with James/Stacy McDonald (not to be confused with James MAC Donald) and RC Sproul, Jr. Scary stuff going on in this group of churches.
@ Dee:
Thanks for the prayer. We’ve had a few flickers so far but nothing worse (praying!). So far, watching lots of movies today at home and staying in!
70-90 mph wind gusts tonight. The beaches are totally flooded and there’s already been some moderate street flooding in the evac zone and it’s not even high tide… The storm surge tonight could get very bad (9-10′ total) and an awful lot of people don’t seem to be taking the evacuation orders seriously.
Dee/Numo
Actually, it’s about “The Situation”…
Addendum @ Dee:
And yes, very definitely about Snooki and the casinos! Also, what does this mean for the Manhattan Declaration? The city it’s named after is about to be flooded out – that can’t be good.
Do all these weather reports make me one of TWW’s “field reporters”? ; )
Dee
Also, thanks for your prayers. One flicker (literally flicker) so far.
One of my cats keeps looking up at the skylight and getting a disgusted look on her face. Like, “Take this away, send it back, I don’t like it.”
@ Looking for You:
Stay safe!
@ Steve:
“One of my cats keeps looking up at the skylight and getting a disgusted look on her face. Like, ‘Take this away, send it back, I don’t like it.'”
Our cat discovered the unboarded kitchen window this morning. He could look through it and see the leaves swirling around and he enjoyed that very much…
@Looking for You (formerly Jan)
Fill up a tub with water. Especially if you have two bathrooms in the house. You might need it for flushing after a few days if the water towers run out.
Collect all your flashlights and batteries.
Charge up all your cell phones. And make sure you know where your car charges are located.
Think about how the wind will change over time and pick your sleeping room accordingly.
Throw as much as you can in the freezer now so it will be frozen or at least colder when power goes out.
If you have a gas stove invite the neighbors over with their spoiling food and electric stoves for buffet meals next week.
If an electric water heater turn it up. This will allow you to use less hot water to get warm water. But be careful with your hot water and don’t burn yourself. And don’t forget to turn it back.
If you have any long heavy duty extension cords. 14 or 12 gauge. Find them and keep them near so if a neighbor has power and you don’t you can borrow some electricity.
Looking for You
Will you give us updates? We will assume if you can’t, that power is out.
Steve D – You could well be right! (About The Situation.)
Apparently Snooki’s live-tweeting the storm; MTV says all cast members are safe. If I get too bored (and/or freaked by the sound of the wind), I might just take a gander at Snooki’s Twitter feed.
Hester
We appoint you “boots on the ground.” We will pay you our standard salary. We believe that we should not make more than twice the salary of our “underlings.” So $0.00 / 2 =?
Steve
The Situation…. 🙂
Numo
It depends on how one defines “changed.”
West of I95 we’re just getting a lot of rain. Plus it’s been very windy for 2 days now. Very.
East of I95 they are getting rain that prompts building of arks. We are not located over there.
Thanks guys! Dee, I will try to keep you guys updated. The creek across from my house, which I usually can’t see, looks like a river! My neighbor keeps pacing his porch looking worried. My house is very old, I can literally feel the wind blowing inside!
Guy/All
Deb’s cotton is due to be picked. They are up in the northeasten part of the state. They are getting so much rain and the cotton cannot be harvested. Darn cold around Raleigh-it did not touch 50 on my deck today.
Numo
I wonder what people would think if I carried Sbooki’s tweets…it may make more sense than some pastors I follow.
Perhaps this storm is a judgment on SGM. I am on the western shore of Maryland and it is really picking up now. Once winds hit 40mph, our power usually goes out and stays out for days and days. By some miracle, it’s been gusting to 55 and we still have power.
Leila
Why does she protest that she is not a Calvinista?
Dee, I don’t know what Kamilla believes exactly. Like many of these folks, she is slipperier than an eel when you try to pin them down about what they do believe in (other than mocking others with blistering comments) for daring to express an opinion contrary to the Great Ozymandias. I think their copies of the Bible is missing 1st Peter 3:15.
Dee and Deb:
I see that my nephew posted above. That will give you a perspective of a young, educated evangelical's view of Evans' work.
Last night we were talking and he complemented Anon1 for drawing the connection between Evans' complete lack of theological training and C.J. Mahaney's lack of theological training. My nephew commented that there are too many situations in the evangelical world that go like this, "I like Jesus. Jesus and Christianity are cool. I think I'll start a church (or write a book). And then I'll just go crazy."
He puts Evans, Driscoll, Bell and Mahaney in basically the same camp, but with different vibes. People who have been able to create a "buzz", gather a following, and then basically lead them to very unhealthy views of the faith. That's a pretty mature thing for a 20 year old to figure out.
Anonymous, The irony is also that Jesus did not pick the cream of the educated Rabbinical crop to take the Good News to the Jews. If one was out working as Fisherman or Tax Collectors they were not on the Rabbi track in that day and age.
Yet, He chose the very educated one who was on the Rabbinical track to take the Good News to the Gentiles.
Funny how that works.
I wonder what Kamilla thinks of the “feminists” who fought for the right to vote? Will she be exercising feminism by voting on the 6th?
Eagle, I went over and read it just in case it gets deleted. I am not sure the CP will let the “M” word stand.
Anon 1 –
Character counts after all! It appears that when the characters cracked people were already trained to follow man instead of Christ.
GBTC –
Thanks for the update. Not a good situation for Deb :(.
I’m praying for all the Right Coasters.
Hmmm…..thinking of the comments above about how vicious patrio women can be (and the comparative examples HUG gave of Imelda Marcos, etc.)…. is it possible that in the patriocentric leadership world the “man behind the curtain” is actually a woman – or the women? Is the patriarchal subculture actually (OMG) being led by the women behind the curtains? Just wondering…..
Y’all on the East coast, be safe. I’m keeping you in my thoughts and prayers. Keep us updated as you can….
Dee – LOLZ re. “changed.”
I think you’ve got something re. Snooki’s tweets vs. those of the so-called “pastors.” 😉
Steve D
Are you related to a certain guy who occasionally comments here?
Bridget,
We had a wet weekend at the farm, but my daughters came and we had a great time hanging out with them – going out to dinner Friday and Saturday, playing Rook, etc. We then headed back to Raleigh yesterday afternoon.
Hopefully, cotton picking will commence toward the end of the week. We were making good progress before the first band of rain arrived late Friday afternoon.
Anonymous
I think Evans is very different than Driscoll, Mahaney, and Bell. Those 3 claim a theological superiority. RHE does not. In fact, she says she has far more question than answers. She bills herself as an average person asking difficult questions. The other 3 claim to have the answers. I look at Evans as an outsider looking into the church.
Deb –
It sounds like the time was well spent, even if it wasn’t spent on what you intended! Hopefully, all will be dry later in the week. The question I have is “will the cotton be useable?” I don’t know much about cotton crops.
” think Evans is ver ydifferent than Driscoll, Mahaney, and Bell. Those 3 claim a theological superiorty. RHE does not. In fact, she says she has far more question than answers. She bills hersef as an average person asking difficult questions. The other 3 claim to have the answers. I look at Evans as an outsider looking into the church.”
Bingo. Good point!
Bridget,
After the cotton is harvested, it is dumped into a module builder and compacted into a module that weighs around 16,000 pounds and looks just like this.
So far we have harvested 6 and a half modules. My hubby thinks we may get as many as 40 modules, so there is a lot more work to be done. Because of all the rain this summer, we have quite a bit of tall cotton 🙂 and that’s a good thing. 😉
It’s an interesting process. Did you want me to save you some cotton?
NYC subway is flooding. 13′ storm surge in Manhattan and surrounding area. At least 7′ in the town across the river from me and the Episcopal church where I take music lessons is now either half underwater or on an “island” (note: it isn’t normally on an island!). Also there is a retreat run by monks in my area out on a tiny island in the middle of the harbor. They were under a mandatory evac order yesterday and the whole place is probably underwater by now.
Dee,
Sure, tell anyone, doesn’t matter to me. Fendrel…just a made up name, it’s an anagram for (Nerd Elf) I use it for one of my WoW characters.
Deb –
That looks like one huge matress! I imagine it might not be all that soft if it’s compacted though. It’s good to know that the cotton crop was good this year. The corn crop in the Midwest didn’t fare as well.
The rain doesn’t ruin the crop if it’s ready for harvest then?
I was thinking Piper, or whoever else makes proclamations, would link a Her-ac-Cain to RHE’s book launch. Rachel’s book hits the stores and Sandi comes along. Her interview on the View got cancelled.
(formerly Jan)? can’t find your handle – I am praying for you! Scary – stay safe!
Val:
I am also surprised that RHE has not been blamed for Sandy. smiling.
The sun has come out again! No damage at my place. Other places in my area, though – not so much.
Hurricane update: Thanks to those who prayed. We are okay! A few trees down, and the electric went out for a few minutes, but nothing major. Some kind neigbors invited me and my daughter over for the night, I felt much safer there!
That’s so nice of your neighbors, Looking for You. I’m glad to hear you are okay.
Anon1:
I agree that Jesus did not primarily call the educated to lead. And we have great modern examples – Spurgeon, Moody.
And that has great currency in the evangelical world. People are not educated in the faith are often treated and seen as more authentic.
I mean – This guy has no education? And he started a church? It has 5,000 members. This must be a “God thing.” So goes the line.
I wonder if the evangelical world needs to rethink that paradigm?
Anon1:
There are differences between Evans and the others, for sure.
But Evans appears to be attempting to influence, not just ask questions.
My nephew said that Evans tried to start a house church that basically floppped and now she doesn’t go anywhere.
Do you know if that is correct?
is it possible that in the patriocentric leadership world the “man behind the curtain” is actually a woman – or the women? Is the patriarchal subculture actually (OMG) being led by the women behind the curtains? — Jeanete Altes
Behind the curtains with her husband’s testicles in her purse?
One side of my family came out of a small-town PA Dutch background, and according to my writing partner (who has to deal with that local culture on a daily basis), passive-aggressive is a fine art in that culture. Both dominant (and domineering) personalities on that side of my family were female; the males tended to be “Yes, Dear” henpecked passives as soon as they got out of their “Manly” spheres. (And when these two alpha females feuded, the family blew apart.)
So it’s very possible these Manly Men-o-Gawd are being P-whipped behind the scenes by their Winsome Wifeys. And when females get into a serious fight, they tend to be much more vicious and vindictive than males.
Dee, I don’t know what Kamilla believes exactly. Like many of these folks, she is slipperier than an eel when you try to pin them down… — Leila
Narcissists and Sociopaths usually are.
Anonymous – It is true, though I don’t believe it is anything to hold against her.
http://rachelheldevans.com/church-plant-failed
HUG – I’m PA Dutch, too.
We’re not ALL like that, fer cryin’ out loud!!!
After having been immersed for a few years within the John Piper/Gospel Coalition/Acts 29 milieu, I am always amused to read phrases such as “with a very heavy heart, I cannot celebrate the upcoming release of this book.” The presumed correct understanding of the Bible on the part of the GC reviewer is typical in its arrogance, shrouded in compassionate terminology like “heavy heart”.
I was peppered with similar verbiage by my former Acts 29-affiliated church group when I chose to leave in order to become Catholic this year. To them, I was walking away from the true and pure gospel… of course this pastor had the corner on biblical truth. But at the root of everything for me were the Scriptures and the Church.
Over the past few years, I had found myself in a similar situation to many evangelicals who struggled with relying solely on the scriptures for guidance in living in today’s world, especially when the same scriptures are interpreted so differently from church to church.
When I had almost reached my breaking point, and I thought I had nothing left to stand on, I was brought to the truth of how the canon of the scriptures came to be. It was through the Church! Christ established His Church through the Apostles and then the New Testament scriptures were borne out of the Sacred Tradition of the Church (under the guidance of the Holy Spirit). I have learned that the Scriptures were never meant to be separated from the Tradition of the Church. So now, the Scriptures are REALLY coming to life in ways that I could never have imagined before becoming Catholic.
And to think I had spent years believing the likes of Calvinistas who accused the Catholic Church of not being biblical. That is pretty ironic when it was through the Church that the Scriptures that these Calvinistas exalt were compiled into the Bible.
With regards to this:
My nephew commented that there are too many situations in the evangelical world that go like this, “I like Jesus. Jesus and Christianity are cool. I think I’ll start a church (or write a book). And then I’ll just go crazy.”
Isn’t there a difference between starting a church and writing a book? People who write books are not taking on responsibility for the spiritual lives of a “flock.” Does everyone who writes a book about the Bible need to have seminary training? I don’t think so. I think laypeople can and should be able to research and write about biblical topics without having to have the same qualifications that a minister of a church should have.
And in what sense is RHE “going crazy”?
No More Perfect – thanks for the link to Rachel’s blog about the church plant. I will note that with regard to this:
My nephew said that Evans tried to start a house church that basically floppped and now she doesn’t go anywhere.
Anon– Rachel’s blog indicates that the house church she was involved with had a pastor, and it wasn’t her or her husband. So no, there is no indication that she tried to start a church– certainly not in the same sense as Mahaney or Driscoll did.
KR Wordgazer – +1 !!!
Post-hurricane report from Maryland. We lost power overnight but got it back a few hours ago. We were up overnight bailing water out of our sump pump but it flooded anyway and ruined our basement carpet. It’s a hot mess, but everyone is safe. Now we’re spending the rest of the day ripping carpet up. It’s going to be a pain in the neck around here for awhile until repairs are made and order is restored, but I am thankful we had no trees crashing on the house and no injuries. I feel for NJ and NY-ers.
Happy to hear you’re ok, Leila!
KR
There are people who think we are going crazy.
My grand mother used to pick cotton by hand in the 30s as a child. Thank goodness that isn’t how it is done in most 1st world countries anymore. It was one of her major points about the “Good Old Days”. Than goodness they are gone! 🙂
Looking for you
I am so glad that TWW didn’t have to come looking for you and that you are safe.
RE: HUG on Tue Oct 30,2012 at 12:26,
It has been said that Vo Nguyen Giap understood the enhanced dynamic of cunning and ruthlessness in some women that far exceeds that of their male counterparts, and employed it in his struggle against the French colonialists long before the Americans arrived on the scene. Many Vietnamese women played key roles in the organization and leadership of the peasant cadres which ultimately became known as the Viet Cong. It can be further argued that women played no small role in enabling a nation of rice farmers to defeat the most powerful military force the world has ever known.
Interesting example. As the VC were basically thrown under the bus once the north gained control. As a practical matter they had no interesting in a well organized insurgency existing in the middle of a unified country. And so they broke them up. Forcefully. Many were put to death by working them to death in work camps.
And after winning the war for Hanoi, General Giap found himself thrown under the bus by the politicians/Party Commissars.
KR:
Just from an analytical standpoint, a book can have more of an influence than starting a church. The author doesn’t have the day to day care or shepherding of people, that’ true. But the words can have wider distribution and they are permanent, so to speak. Unless one engages with an author regularly, the opportunity to revise and update what has been learned.
But if a person is building a following, like a blogger, then I guess an author has great influence – ask Dee and Deb.
I did not know about the church thing.
As for the “go crazy”, I’ll let you read Kelby Carlson’s comment above. He basically puts her in the same camp as Driscoll and Mahaney. Energized to tell people things, but lacking in substance.
I haven’t read her. These are just the thoughts of a 20 year old who reads quite a lot.
“General Giap found himself thrown under the bus by the politicians/Party Commissars.”
Single party run states don’t like hero’s who are not firmly in the party. Too often they represent an “alternative” to the party and that cannot be allowed. First they must be shown to not be a hero then they must be fixed, re-educated, de-gifted, un-ordained, etc…
Lots of subtext here about how churches operate in a fallen world.
I’m going to stick my neck out, as a 44 yr old woman who reads quite a lot & sayv that I think RHE does have substance. There are areas in which I don’t agree with her, but I think, despite not being seminary educated, she does have substance. Have you compared her look at Esther, faithful to the text, to Mark Driscoll’s urban fairytale, allegedly from the same text? There’s substance.
And one other thing she has, in abundance, a compassionate character. The hurting & the broken receive a warm welcome from her, even if she doesn’t agree with them. Imagine that! And if she errs sometimes on the side of love over judgement? Well, if I have to err(which I will), that’s the direction I choose to err in too, it being the greatest thing. Better to be too warm than too cold.
Long-time reader, infrequent commenter.
Anonymous,
That is only your nephew’s opinion. His view doesn’t represent that of all young evangelicals. I’m around his age, attend a Presby church, and have been reading quite a lot of theology since my teens. As of right now, I’m reading a systematic theology (not written by Grudem, thank goodness). And another tome on biblical theology, but that’s missing the point.
I see Rachel as someone who asks the hard questions. I have doubted before. I know how it is to wrestle with God, and I still do. As much as I like the comfort of Reformed theology, I still struggle. My INTJ mind was made by God to question, and I happen to question Him a lot. 😛
I don’t agree with everything she writes, but she raises good questions. And boy, do I love people who question, rather than following lock step with a creed or confession, or a coalition. *cough*
And to the nephew above: surely, if you read N.T. Wright, you would note that in his latest book, he talks quite a bit about creeds. But I won’t spoil it for you — you have to read it yourself.
P.S. what is most foundational to the church is Jesus. Not “Jesus + creeds.” I appreciate creeds, confessions and the like, but they are temporary. They are nothing compared to Christ himself, from whom all knowledge and wisdom are derived. He holds all things together, and I don’t think that someone not attending church is going to send the Body of Christ crashing down.
Anonymous,
I’m finding your comments interesting. So, you value your nephew’s (even though he’s only 20) opinions so thoroughly you don’t read these things for yourself? Maybe you do, but you seem to only mention what your nephew says. What do you have against Rachel yourself, from your reading of her blog? AFAIK she only has had one widely read book out before this one, and it is more of a biography. Hard to say she is trying to influence much with that book. Did you read it?
Have you actually read Year of Biblical Womanhood? I am heading out tomorrow to get a copy – and will read it before I a) accuse her of trying to influence the church, how so? to ask questions, great, the Church could do a lot better job on asking questions, frankly; b) accuse her of being shallow – you mean she doesn’t pontificate on the “beauty” of TULIP doctrine, (finally, I am getting a little sick of “we are sinners”, we are sinners, “we are sinners” but who cares, we all want to live in great big homes with 15 cars… I wanna be a rock sta- oops I mean pastor – where the girls are easy and the drugs come cheap – oops I mean followers are gullible and the tithes come easy…) or c) accuse her of whatever the TGC, SBC (aka Mohler/Boyce clan), neo-Calvinista hordes tell me she is.
I have read her first book, liked it (certainly not deep theology, just her testimony and struggles), I then found her blog, oh 3 years ago I think (back when she still had a blogroll on the side of it), and checked in from time to time. One day, she said her next book would be trying to live all the commands of the Bible for a year. I sort of went *groan* (just being honest), couldn’t she do something else? I wondered if her blog was just a way to build PR for her book back then (when she stopped blogging due to busyness for a time), and was dropping it once enough copies sold (cynical me), but she often had pertinent and interesting posts and I was sad to see it abandoned.
Later, when she came back to blogging (I was, thankfully, wrong) it wasn’t just a ploy to drum up sales, her audience was waiting. She is a) a good blogger and b) a voice that many people need right now, a breath of fresh air, really and c) actually much smarter than she at first appears. She posts too much for anyone to pick out a post and say “see, she believes this”. As the Boyce college crowd does. She has good days and bad days. She freely expresses her frustrations and joy. Reading about her walk through the publishing world has been eye-opening, interesting and compelling (it makes you want to cheer for the little David against the big Goliath). She has captivated her readers with her quick and thoughtful responses to the Calvinista’s problems, she has shown how hard it is when the church you grew up with behaves so poorly to unbelievers, to others, to anyone who disagrees with them. And, this hits her out of the ball park, she interacts with her readers. She is unafraid of them. She lets commenters who disagree with her stand (she does ask for civility, true, but she is unafraid to let strong opposition and disagreement be voiced). That audience she built was largely due to her talent as a writer not her stirrings of a movement, nor a desire to influence her readers. If you haven’t read “Evolving in Monkey Town” much of her blog or “Year of Biblical Womanhood” (as I suspect your nephew has not), why don’t you go get a copy at the Library and read it yourself (so you don’t have to give her any royalties for reading it)? If, what your nephew says is true, then you have the right to argue against her. However, I think you, yourself, could discern this for yourself. I suspect the reaction against her is due to her strength as a writer, and her ability to point out many of the arguments from the Calvinista Comps is a case of “the Emperor has no Clothes” and no one gets to the heart of this like Rachel.
Oh, and that “Year of Living the Bible”, yes, RHE came up with that, but first, she wanted to write a book against Piper’s council of Biblical Manhood/Womanhood book (can’t recall exact title), but the editors thought it was too confrontational, so she had to do something that would point out how ridiculous their advice was without directly confronting them. She made it bigger, made it about how turning the Bible into a rule book for gender play looks in today’s world. Deeply theological, no, inciting a movement, no, raising questions – you bet.
Go over to Driscoll’s or Piper’s blog. Can you leave comments? (rhetorical question) On other Coalition blogs, where you can comment, they are heavily monitored IF you disagree, if you are a comp., no matter how sour-grapes, rude, snarky, or how one twists the original author’s quotes you stay, I have tried, but given up, pointing out problems with their quotes, Biblical quotes, etc. I don’t rampage in accusing them of evil, I just say, well, what about this verse. I know I am getting somewhere if my post randomly disappears later. And, then there is the inquisition imbedded in their comment personalities over there. They demand: “What do you think about scripture?” “You aren’t holding it inerrant” (I do, I just have a different definition of that then them).
What have you read of Driscoll? Mahaney (does Mahaney write books)? Driscoll thinks young single males are sinners because, let’s face it, they aren’t marrying, settling in suburbia and forking over half their salary to his church (as if he cares if their marriages fail or thrive – go look at exiles from his church due to divorce). Never mind that celibacy was a higher calling than matrimony in the NT times, don’t let facts get in the way of a good pulpit thrashing.
Yet, and here is the thing that irks me the most, despite all this culturalized junk from these mega-Calvinistas, young guys will talk about how “solid” these guys are, how good their teaching is. Rachel points out they aren’t really the bee’s knees and their pet doctrines/views have some pretty big holes in them, and they … graciously accept her critic?… write a thoughful rebuttal? … be kind to a (in their mind’s) misguided soul? nah, they go nuts!
*Now, they are sending their wives after her!* (Kathy Keller at TGC). Now their wives are allowed to talk, lovely.
Anonymous, you said:
Just from an analytical standpoint, a book can have more of an influence than starting a church. The author doesn’t have the day to day care or shepherding of people, that’ true. But the words can have wider distribution and they are permanent, so to speak. Unless one engages with an author regularly, the opportunity to revise and update what has been learned.
But if a person is building a following, like a blogger, then I guess an author has great influence – ask Dee and Deb.
I don’t think influence is the issue. When one is reading a book or a blog, there is no external pressure to ascribe to what it’s saying. Not at all the same thing as attending a church, where (no matter how non-controlling the church leaders are) there is always the unspoken rule that if you’re going to be part of the church, you’d better agree with most, if not all, of the doctrines and practices of that church. No one, reading a book, receives the same kind of invitation to throw in their lot with other readers that churchgoers receive to throw in their lot with the church and its members.
No, what RHE is doing is not comparable to what Driscoll and Mahaney are doing. And bravo to BeakerJ! RHE’s book certainly does have substance.
Dee said:
“There are people who think we are going crazy.”
I think that for a long time now, many of us have been going slowly sane. You are one of the voices of sanity.
(BTW, the above comment from “Kristen” was also mine.)
Which post belongs to Anonymous’ nephew? What name is he using here?
Hi Julie Anne,
It’s Kelby Carlson; Sunday, Oct. 28; 3:54 pm
“There are differences between Evans and the others, for sure.
But Evans appears to be attempting to influence, not just ask questions.
My nephew said that Evans tried to start a house church that basically floppped and now she doesn’t go anywhere.
Do you know if that is correct?”
I don’t follow Evans that closely. I have read her blog a few times over the years. Have read it more recently. I think she has some very good discussions, asks good questions, etc. I do not understand this fascination with following anyone for things that are of Christ.
I am not a subscriber to the concept of “starting a church”. I think that is backwards thinking. I believe a church happens when believers decide to meet together for lots of reasons such as study, worship, helping others, etc. I think our typical definition of “church” is tradition. If Evans is trying to be a big church guru, as you seem to suggest, she might want to find a bigger city and a bigger house. (wink)
As to Evans, it is obvious she is upsetting some apple carts by merely doing what others have attempted to do by blogging, writing a book, etc. I find that amusing. She does seem a million times more humble than the others she is being compared to or the others who are critisizing her.
“I agree that Jesus did not primarily call the educated to lead. And we have great modern examples – Spurgeon, Moody.
And that has great currency in the evangelical world. People are not educated in the faith are often treated and seen as more authentic.
I mean – This guy has no education? And he started a church? It has 5,000 members. This must be a “God thing.” So goes the line.
I wonder if the evangelical world needs to rethink that paradigm?”
IMHO the “Evangelical” world needs to stop following man educated or not. Period.
Dee
Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner. I’m running on generator power. To my knowledge I am not related to anyone other than me. I post under Steve D or my real name Steve Dawson.
“Just from an analytical standpoint, a book can have more of an influence than starting a church. The author doesn’t have the day to day care or shepherding of people, that’ true. But the words can have wider distribution and they are permanent, so to speak. Unless one engages with an author regularly, the opportunity to revise and update what has been learned.”
Hmm. I do wonder how lasting that is. Where is PDL now? And that book sold millions over and over. As to engaging the author, Evans interacts on her blog. I do not see that with Piper, Mohler, etc. They do not interact to that extent unless in a controlled venue. They bring us edicts from on high.
“But if a person is building a following, like a blogger, then I guess an author has great influence – ask Dee and Deb.”
Again, you see constant interaction here. Laid bare, so to speak. Do you see that with Mohler’s site? How many of the celeb NC/YRR or even celeb Evangelicals make themselves available on a daily basis to interact or be questioned on what they wrote? They don’t. They don’t have to. Many of you simply follow them because of who they are.
“surely, if you read N.T. Wright, you would note that in his latest book, he talks quite a bit about creeds. But I won’t spoil it for you — you have to read it yourself.”
Yes! Finally. Someone who is taking on Creeds and putting them in their proper perspective for a change. They were necessary for the time but not to be used as a “syllabus for Jesus”.
“*Now, they are sending their wives after her!* (Kathy Keller at TGC). Now their wives are allowed to talk, lovely.”
I know nothing about Kathy Keller so this is not about her but about your first part. I always get a huge kick out of this. First they spend years talking about women’s roles and their place. This goes on ad nauseum. Then later on they wonder why no one even knows their wives exist and totally ignore them. They are only a source of teaching for other non existent women in that bubble. But then, that will get to them, eventually. They don’t want people thinking they married uneducated idiots. It starts to make them look insecure.
I have seen this play out over and over the last 30 years in the comp movement. Never occurs to them when they start out with a wrong premise they end up with bad results.
Julie Anne
I do not know which on is his nephew. We have several new guests. I asked on person but got no response.
Victorious
I need to hire you! I can’t keep up with who is coming and going!
Anon1
She is a humble, nice woman who is not trying to be a “gospel” scholar. She is making a big point that we, as Christians, pick and chose our pet verses to “prove” our latest “mandates.” And, as I continue to say, the average person cannot even attempt to understand the interrealtion of the Old Testamen to the new Testament and that is why we get all balled up on things like a mandatory tithe, Moses leadership, etc. People need to stop the ritique and start answering, in a kind and thoughtful manner, the questions that she raises.
Instead, we’ve got a bunch of knuckleheads running around, screaming “heresy” while Evas is intriguing many people outside of the faith.
Steve D
Are you guys doing OK? What kind of generator do you have? I heard that Bill O’Reilly’s $10,000 generator failed during the storm. How does one of those generators fail? We got a small portable one -hurricanes and ice storms are common in North Carolina but we have to keep it going with gasoline. We are consdering a whole house generator that ties into the gas linebut became worried when we heard O’Reilly’s experience.
I am sorry. I got you mixed up with another person who commented. Praying for all of you caught up in this disaster.
I finally found Kelby’s comment. Lots of interesting points! I am a bit sad to read lots of “tradition”, “orthodox”, “Creeds”, Catechism, etc. More of trying to live out Christian beliefs using history instead of the Holy Spirit Who is the best teacher in interpreting scripture for us. I think this is very prevalent today. I hear it all the time with the young. They seem to have a more “historical” faith in church history. Which is a horrible bloody mess of tyrants and charlatans.
I would urge everyone to go back before the great councils and read what you can from believers and from others about believers. Very interesting stuff. When the Councils started to deal with “heresy”, that is when the wars started and the church went on the road to become a nation/state.
The problems started when there were disagreeements over the nature of Jesus Christ. And this is where the Creeds come from.In the meantime, we have tended to ignore the Jesus Christ Who lived here. What He said, what He did, etc.
Kelby writes:
“Nor is it to downplay the evangelical doctrines of the Gospel as forgiveness of sins (as so many evangelicals, even my beloved N. T. Wright, seem prone to do.) Rather it is a robust commitment to Christian orthodoxy (as defined in the councils) and a reaffirmation of it whereever it can be found.”
Kelby, the greatest disappointment in my lifetime has been the twisting of the word, Gospel. It has lost it’s meaning. In fact, it can mean anything these days since the guru’s have hijacked it and redefined it to their particular bent. Gospel child raising, Gospel marriages, Gospel quit smoking programs, Gospel marriage bed, etc.
I would say we need to start there. What IS the Good News?
Anon1
We open ourselves up to criticism every day as does RHE. We allow the tough comments. We know that we make mistakes and can have a fail at times.
As hard as it is, I prefer the push and pull of openess. That is why I allow commenters like Jimmy. As christians, we must be able to dialogue in the public square. If we can’t take the critique, then are we really demonstrating the love of Christ? Unfortunately some people want to be untouchable “pontificators” and that is what is getting them into chronic trouble. They only hear from their friends.
Anon 1, about Kathy Keller- you should know that their view on women in ministry is that women may teach and preach.
Just read Kathy Keller’s review of RHE’s book. This one kills me:
Perhaps the most basic rule—agreed upon by all branches of Christianity—is that Jesus’ coming made the Old Testament sacrificial system and ceremonial laws obsolete.
The truth is it’s not that simple. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the OT contains 613 laws, called the mitzvot in Judaism. In the NT, some specific rules are addressed (such as circumcision and food laws) as not being applicable, but nowhere in the NT will you find any comprehensive guidance of which of these are to be followed and which no longer apply.
In fact, Denny Burk says that “the overwhelming majority of Christians have held that the Old Testament ceremonial and civil codes apply to the historic nation of Israel alone and not to the New Covenant church.” Yet Kathy Keller said it’s the “sacrificial system and ceremonial laws” that are obsolete – leaving out the civil codes. Which is it? Moreover, this never stops conservatives from trotting out an OT law when it suits their purpose (example #1 being those supposedly related to homosexuality). For conservatives to accuse RHE of ‘picking and choosing’ is hypocrisy.
The volumes that have been written on what OT laws apply in Christianity and which don’t would constitute a library all on their own. To claim that the issue is simple is disingenuous. Here are just two verses that highlight the issue:
Matthew 5:17-18
‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law.
Reconciling these two has involved endless and complex discussions to which there is no overall agreement – just do an Internet search of ‘the New Perspective on Paul’ for a current issue on the applicability of the law.
Dee
We have a small generator. Handles most of what we need (heat,water,refrigeration). We do shut it down at night to conserve gas. My next door neighbor installs those large generators. They seem to work fairly well. Possibly Bill wasn’t maintaining it?
This does get old rather fast. We’re supposed to have lights no later than Friday night. I do feel for the linemen. It’s a long, tough job.
Dee, Your comment is why I think the criticism of RHE is really unfair and unbalanced when they focus on her popularity or influence. If she is tweeting insults about others to her vast audience then perhaps they have a point. I have not seen that and welcome to be corrected if she does such things.
The give and take on blogs from detractors is not often allowed in those circles of celebrity or wannabe celebrity. There is a need to control the venue instead of tackling the tough questions together even if we decide to disagree. I often wonder if people who are enamoured with them don’t see or even think about this control aspect? I have come to the conclusion their audience is made up of wanna be pastors, elders, and other myriad of followers. They do not seem to value open communication or free speech in Christendom.
Steve, the irony of generators is that gas is 4 bucks a gallon. We ran into this in the aftermath of Ike. It got very expensive. We were down for 10 days. Which is nothing compared to what others went through. My prayers are will all of you all.
“Anon 1, about Kathy Keller- you should know that their view on women in ministry is that women may teach and preach.”
I have heard they were soft comp but not that women preach there. Are you suggesting they allow women to preach to a congregation that includes men? I do wonder how the other more rabid comps in TGC deal with that?
I’m posing from my phone, but they have a document about their views on women in ministry. It says women are only prohibited from the office of Elder, and the only thing Elders do that Deacons do not is church discipline. As I understand it, women to teach and preach to men at Redeemer- though this is only from reading their statements. I have no experience at their church.
From what I gather, in behavior the Kellers are about as close to Egal as any comp comes.
JeffT
There is something deeper for me in the ceremonial laws of the OT that must be addressed. God would not allow dwarfs and the handicapped bring sacrifices to the Temple.Why? Yes, we no about a perfect sacrifice but even the priests were not perfect when brining the sacrifices. These are the questions that must be wrestled with and saying that the OT sacrifical system was abolished does not answer the harder questions. Why, even if only temporary?
“I’m posing from my phone, but they have a document about their views on women in ministry. It says women are only prohibited from the office of Elder, and the only thing Elders do that Deacons do not is church discipline. As I understand it, women to teach and preach to men at Redeemer- though this is only from reading their statements. I have no experience at their church.”
Hmm. A lot of these types have “teaching and preaching elders”. It all gets very complicated when it comes to polity and “offices” as they like to term the functions in the Body. So would their elders have only “church discipline” responsibilities? Sounds ominous. Is Keller Presbyterian and part of the ecclesiastical structure of that denomination?
“From what I gather, in behavior the Kellers are about as close to Egal as any comp comes.”
They do seem to be a ways off from Piper! But it does sound like they are straining at gnats to be more open. Junia was an apostle. Deborah was a “judge” and I have to conclude that included discipline. (wink)
I wish I could find that document, though I think it was written a while ago.
Keller is indeed Presbyterian, and he had originally attempted to be a minster in the PC(USA) but claims they would not accept him for his Comp Views. It is interesting, because he says “can’t we just have different views on women in ministry and get along?” in the paper, which doesn’t seem consistent with TGC of today. I wonder if Keller has been influenced by some of the other folks to be more dividing along this line?
At any rate, he is in the PCA and a lot of PCA folks get upset with him over his stances on women in ministry (check out what the Bayly blog has to say about him- they are not pleased)- not surprising as women in ministry was THE issue that led to the formation of the PCA.
I do seem to recall that Kathy originally wanted to be ordained as a minister, but through study decided that it was not scriptural.
I haven’t had too much exposure to Keller, but what I have read has impressed me quite a bit. He seems to have a heart for the oppressed that I don’t see evident in a lot of other very public ministers these days.
There is something deeper for me in the ceremonial laws of the OT that must be addressed. God would not allow dwarfs and the handicapped bring sacrifices to the Temple.Why? Yes, we no about a perfect sacrifice but even the priests were not perfect when brining the sacrifices. These are the questions that must be wrestled with and saying that the OT sacrifical system was abolished does not answer the harder questions. Why, even if only temporary?”
Boy have I wrestled with the same things. I am in no way an expert on this and do not have a clear understanding on that one issue. I have been studying quite a bit and have come to the conclusion we read the OT through Western eyes and not ancient culture eyes. I think we, understandably so, miss the part where pagan lifestyles and even worship was violent, obscene and all around the Isrealites. And some of the more bizarre laws were responding to that in a way that does not make a lot of sense to us now without the background.
There is something deeper for me in the ceremonial laws of the OT that must be addressed. God would not allow dwarfs and the handicapped bring sacrifices to the Temple.Why? — Dee
My guess is that some of the fertility cults of the surrounding tribes/nations might have used dwarfs, the deformed, and eunuchs in their religious ceremonies. (A lot of primitive peoples attribute magical/spiritual powers to the deformed and insane.) In that case, it would be a further attempt to distinguish the Jews from those surrounding them — “For those are the things which the Goyim do.”
I have seen this play out over and over the last 30 years in the comp movement. Never occurs to them when they start out with a wrong premise they end up with bad results. — Anon1
That anything like “This time we WILL achieve True Communism because this time the Right People will be in charge!”?
Dee said:
“There are people who think we are going crazy.”
I think that for a long time now, many of us have been going slowly sane. You are one of the voices of sanity. — KR Wordgazer
Every week or two, I call my writing partner and ask the same question:
“Did we go crazy, or did everybody else?”
And he gives me the same answer, from one of the Desert Fathers:
“There will come a time when men will go mad. And they will lay hands on the sane among them, saying ‘You are not like us! You must be Mad!'”
“General Giap found himself thrown under the bus by the politicians/Party Commissars.”
Single party run states don’t like hero’s who are not firmly in the party. Too often they represent an “alternative” to the party and that cannot be allowed. First they must be shown to not be a hero then they must be fixed, re-educated, de-gifted, un-ordained, etc… — Lynn
Everything I have heard about General Giap was that he was a professional soldier and pure military man. During the rebellion against the French, he was known for sticking up for his men (against the Party bosses) in the area of wounded evacuation and medical care. Before WW2, when the Vietnamese Communist Party first formed in Paris, it was said the other Party bigwigs would lecture you on Marx and The Inevitable Dialectic while Giap would talk military history.
And what caused Giap’s falling out with The Party was when the Russians moved in after the war and re-hung the same “No Vietnamese or Dogs Allowed” signs as the French around their foreign legation compounds. Giap objected to this, and got silenced.
There is something deeper for me in the ceremonial laws of the OT that must be addressed. God would not allow dwarfs and the handicapped bring sacrifices to the Temple.Why?
One of the mysteries of Israelite religion. Why were those with physical defects considered physically ‘impure’ and thus unable to enter into the presence of God in the temple, particularly when those with physical ‘impurities’ are as much created in the image of God as those without. Lots of theories but no definitive answers.
Yes, Kathy Keller would be fine to teach at her church – a while back, when Dee linked to Mahaney being on the board at the TGC, David Short’s name was right beside his. I freaked. David Short is a reverend at a very egalitarian leaning church in Vancouver that broke from the Anglican area Bishop over several issues. I have been there, and was not impressed to see David’s name on the list at TGC. Keller and Short are not into the whole Biblical manhood/womanhood issues the way Piper, Burk, Duncan, Gurdam, etc. are. But, there alignment is curious. I think it makes them lose cred. as leaders, if they can’t stand against that sort of stereotyping of genders.
But TGC is not Redeemer Church. I have never seen Piper’s, Mahaney’s or Wilson’s wife on the TGC blog before. Now, suddenly, a pastor’s wife is “allowed” on there, just so they don’t look bad/sexist in their Rachel attack.
Where was Kathy when Jared Wilson posted that lovely piece about BDSM and wifely submission? Strangely silent until Rachel needed to be taken down. Somethings rotten in the state of Denmark, methinks.
“That anything like “This time we WILL achieve True Communism because this time the Right People will be in charge!”?”
HUG,
Can you even fathom the times I have heard that from comps? From pastors, staff people, famous comps, women who love comp doctrine, etc. I have even heard a woman comp speaker tell an audience that if they don’t like comp doctrine it is because they did not marry the right kind of man. It NEVER occurs to them the problems stem from faulty and rigid interpretations of scripture. (Too much money to be made on the doctrine back in the 90’s anyway. It was an industry)
Now, most of these folks are conservatives so they are not mapping their own false premise to same one used by communists and socialists the world over throughout time. Its the same. The “system” gives the creeps carte blanche.
Jeff, I wish I could remember my sources now but I do recall reading several ancient historians that a lot of the OT is actually written to contrast to the pagan cultures. We just do not have the other side of the story. We are given glimpses of it here and there, though.
I can remember being shocked years ago to think of Abraham being a pagan before God called him out. But he was living right smack dab in the middle of Paganville. There is a very good chance he was worshipng pagan gods. And might be a hint as to how his interaction with God went.
Reading that was not the same Abraham of my felt story board SS class as a kid!
Val, I agree with you. Something is not right. And they are really going after RHE. maybe she is becoming too popular for their comfort. And going on TV had to really upset them.
Hey, this is interesting:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/morgan-guyton/why-al-mohler-doesnt-get-rachel-held-evans_b_2040823.html
I do not know RHE but I am very happy for her and hope that her book becomes a best-seller.
I really think Al, Denny, and the crowd are just jealous.
Anon 1,
I too got a kick out of the link you’ve posted. They want it both ways. Here’s what I mean:
1)They want the leave it to beaver & father knows best social mores and sensibilities, but would never agree to the post WW2 (up until the Reagan era) tax rates on the upper echelons.
2)They have no problem with socialism so long as it’s guaranteed bailouts for the big guys when their gambling debts go bad. Same with single payer health care. So long as it’s a protected monopoly based on investor confidence it’s cool, but when it’s for the little guy, eeeevilll socialized medicine! Then they get their boxers & panties in a dither.
How much has the stock market gone up over the last 4 years?
Folks like Romney have greatly benefited from this.
Hey Muff, somebody has to be the big dog who decides who gets what in socialism too. And socialism does nothing but breed an oligarchy, too, in those who get to decide for the rest of us. (i.e,congress exempted itself from Obamacare) What kills me is that their churches are practice forms of totalitarianism. That is their polity whether they admit it or not. A few decide for the many.
The problem is with the “many”. Why are they going along? How come they do not love freedom in Christ? How come so many Americans no longer love smaller government? What happened to “Dont tread on me”? Now it is “what are you going to do for me”? Both at church and in government. By today’s standards, JFK was a conservative. And John Weseley was a heretic.
“He was really surprised that she has a following at all. He says that she has little to no theological training at all or really any ministry experience. He has checked out her blog a little and just assumes that she is clever and has struck a nerve in the popular culture and may get some notoriety for a while, or an entire career, if she continues to play her cards right.”
“Hmmm. sounds like how CJ Mahaney got started. Little education, no theological training or ministry experience…”
I can think of at least one world-famous evangelist who got his start the same way – yet I respect him as an excellent teacher. The lack of these attributes doesn’t mean someone has nothing worth saying or listening to.
The bailouts were nothing but “fascism”. I could not believe it. Both parties are guilty.
Anon1
You know what the radical comps do to Deborah. She was merely there because there were no men willing to be men.
Anon1
I know that I do not understand it and hope it will be cleared up for me when I go home. The Bible doesn’t answer some questions for me but it answers all the big ones.
Dee –
“Anon1
You know what the radical comps do to Deborah. She was merely there because there were no men willing to be men.”
Well, that seems to be where we are today. Maybe Rachel is a modern day Deborah. The TGC boys should “look in the mirror” as Michael Jackson would say.
HUG
But, in distinguishing the “practice” of the faith, it could be perceived that God allowed guilt and shame to be placed on thoe who were handicapped through no direct fault oftheir own.I do not see any place in the OT in which these folks were otherwise honored to make up for this slight.
HUG
Thanks for the quote at 12:11
Val
Excellent questions on TGC’s use of Keller to go after RHE and the fact she was mysteriously absent on the infamous Wilson quote bungle.
Lucie
Good points.
Natural gas big generators like this have several moving parts. They have a motor which needs to be run periodically. A generator. And an automatic or manual cutover system tied to your houses breaker box. All of these need to be tested and maintained. Oil changed. Fittings lubricated. Most people don’t.
Buy a car. Drive it home. Park it in the driveway as your emergency car. Now don’t use it for 3 years. Emergency happens. Run out and use the car. Guess the results.
Lynn
Gotcha
Anon 1, with regards to this:
My nephew said that Evans tried to start a house church that basically floppped and now she doesn’t go anywhere.
Do you know if that is correct?”
I don’t follow Evans that closely. I have read her blog a few times over the years. Have read it more recently. I think she has some very good discussions, asks good questions, etc. I do not understand this fascination with following anyone for things that are of Christ.
I am not a subscriber to the concept of “starting a church”. I think that is backwards thinking. I believe a church happens when believers decide to meet together for lots of reasons such as study, worship, helping others, etc. I think our typical definition of “church” is tradition. If Evans is trying to be a big church guru, as you seem to suggest, she might want to find a bigger city and a bigger house. (wink)
I already answered that earlier. No, RHE did not try to “start a church” in the way that question seems to be intended (being compared to Mahaney and Driscoll who started churches, and have been the leaders of those churches).. She was apparently part of a group involved in a house church that eventually failed– but neither she nor her husband was the pastor.
http://www.dennyburk.com/why-was-rachel-held-evans-on-the-roof/
Boy oh boy. Doug Wilson is becoming the go to guy these days for the Calvinistas. Amazing how far the Cavlinistas have fallen into embracing a dominionist, pro slavery apologist and hard core patriarchal pastor who used to be considered the fringe. (Oh, did I mention a pedophile supporter, too)
As Caroline Bingley in Pride and Prejudice said, “I am all astonishment”
KR, I am sorry I did not mean to dismiss your comment. I just did not know about it first hand as I did not read about it on her blog. So, I had no idea what that meant in terms of logistics, etc.
I guess I went a bit off topic on a rant about this whole church planting/starting a church thing that is so popular these days. I just cannot help myself sometimes. :o) I think the YRR guys want to use that against her because they believe women pastors are from satan.
I really have no problem with them having a church in their home at all. That is what they did in the NT!
Anon 1 – great Huffington Post link! It expresses so much of my discontent!
And, yeah, the turn to Douglas Wilson, I think, is also the fruit of worldvie apologetics and the way that Calvinistas are toying with theocracy without even knowing it!
Denny Burke continues to attempt to run down RHE on his blog. We all out to run over to his site and thank him for helping her to sell more of her books.
Denny is a BULLY!
mot, I left a slightly ornery comment about Burke’s endorsement of Wilson – we’ll see how long it stays there.
Anon1
I saw that post and thought the same thing. He fusses about Evans and her “corner of the roof”example but seems to have no problem with marrying a young woman to a convicted, serious pedophile. So, what is wrong here? Perhaps he follows a different faith that coddles those men who are involved in terrilbe sin?
Denny is an outstanding example of what too many leaders in the Southern Baptist Convention also feel towards women. Many in the Southern Baptist Convention would argue with me but IMO the Southern Baptist Convention is anti-women.
sigh….. about all this.
“It’s simply impossible for me to “belong” to this quarrelsome, hostile, disputatious, and deservedly infamous group.” –Anne Rice
“http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/2012/10/a-year-of-biblical-womanhood-some-hopefully-constructive-thoughts-on-evanss-critics/”
This guy makes a great point.
“But here is the question that keeps ringing in my ears: “Why has this one person with this idea caused such a stir?” After all, books and ideas a whole lot more destructive, by any reasonable notion of the word, are uttered daily for Christians to get worked up about (sex-trafficking, poverty, torture). So why do we see reviewers getting so focused about what one person thinks about “biblical womanhood” and resorting so quickly to condescension and destructive rhetoric? (In addition to misunderstanding some hermeneutical issues, that is my general assessment of two recent reviews here”
Dee and all
Thanks so much for your prayers. I’m back on the grid. 🙂
Anon 1 –
To answer the question — because biblical womanhood is TGC’s sacred cow.
Androidninja:
Yes. That was only my nephew’s opinion.
I was at church tonight, and heard from my pastor that Ms. Evans was on the Today Show this morning. He had never heard of her, but saw my nephew’s assessment.
I haven’t seen Ms. Evans’ performance on the Today Show, and probably won’t take the time to follow up. My pastor asked if that was the same person that Kelby was writing about, and I said to my knowledge it was.
My pastor’s only comment was how unbelievably uniformed she was. He was surprised she was on the top 50 of anything list.
Maybe you watched the Today Show performance. Did you think it was good?
elastgirl – all too apt! (I agree.)
Uninformed, not uniformed. I guess women in the OT had uniforms!
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Steve D – yay!!!
Val:
If you read my comments, I have not read Ms. Evans. I had not heard of her until this blog. The only person I know personally who knew who she was, was my nephew, so I commented on what he thought. Then when Dee or Deb said they were interested in him, he chimed in on the blog himself.
I am capable of reading her blog and reading her books, but they don’t interest me that much. It’s not really a topic that I have struggled with that much (i.e. how much of the OT to try and keep?) and if I had, there are probably many in Christian history who have tackled the subject.
I am glad that you find her helpful and enjoy her writing.
I do value my nephew’s opinion, and I find it representative of a certain segment of the young Christians in our nation now. He is at one end of the spectrum of that good, and is unusual for his background, intellect and reading habits.
I haven’t read any blogs about her either, so other than what this site has posted, I don’t know what others are saying.
My pastor was shocked when he caught her performance on the Today Show.
Anon1:
Are you saying that Tim Keller’s wife is reviewing her book?
I respect Tim Keller, have visited Redeemer and have friends there.
Don’t know his wife.
Maybe Keller’s wife has some interesting things to say.
Dee:
Does Evans take on the dwarfs and handicapped issue in the OT? Let me know if she addresses that. My nephew, who is handicapped, might want to read her book if she addresses that just for information purposes.
Jeff S:
Keller is primarily in the PCA because of doctrinal orthodoxy (in his case – the Westminster Confession), not because of comp/egal views of women in ministry.
Mot:
The stock market over the last 4 years?
Romney has benefitted from all this?
What, pray tell, are you talking about?
I thought we were discussing a young woman with a blog and a new book?
Lucie:
Agreed. Lots of uneducated people have been used by the Lord. See my later posts on this.
There are some areas of the faith where an education can be quite useful. Ancient history, Semitic languages, archaeology and such can be quite helpful when discussing difficult questions from the OT and its relation to the NT. Agreed?
Otherwise, I’ll ask the bus driver tomorrow who the Sons of God were in Genesis, and I’ll get back to you with his thoughts.
“My pastor was shocked when he caught her performance on the Today Show.”
The clip is on the post. Which part shocked your pastor? The part where she says she loves the Lord on TV?
“My pastor’s only comment was how unbelievably uniformed she was. He was surprised she was on the top 50 of anything list”
Your pastor sounds like Eddy Haskell. I know the type in ministry.
“Jeff S:
Keller is primarily in the PCA because of doctrinal orthodoxy (in his case – the Westminster Confession), not because of comp/egal views of women in ministry.”
I am struggling to find the link now, but what he said in that paper was that he originally intended to minister in the PC(USA) but couldn’t due to his views on women in ministry.
This doesn’t dispute what you are saying, and my guess is that the PC(USA) and PCA churches were more closely aligned at the time he went into ministry (technically the PC(USA) is confessional too). Remember that the role of women in the church was the major point of contention that caused the PCA churches to split off.
I am at a PCA church, FWIW.
“Are you saying that Tim Keller’s wife is reviewing her book?”
I don’t think I said that. I think it was mentioned by someone else here that she wrote something about it. I was asking questions about the polity at Kellers church concerning women. I know nothing about them.
There is some question now as to the veracity of Mrs Keller saying she tried to contact RHE, I read. Evans says she has had no voice mail or email from her. Perhaps Mrs. Keller will share how she tried to contact her to clear the matter up?
http://www.upc-orlando.com/resources/written/doctrines/doctrine06.html
This is Tim Keller speaking here:
“We live in an era of tension. In many churches, a particular view of women-in-ministry has become a basis for fellowship. Sometimes the message is: “though we believe in the Scripture, in Jesus as the Son of God, the need for repentance and faith in order to be born again, the importance of spreading the kingdom through the ministry of the Holy Spirit—if you don’t share my view of women-in-ministry, there’s the door!” Some 15 years ago, we would have entered the Presbyterian Church USA to minister, but we were told that our view of women-in-ministry precluded us from serving there. Though we would have worked beside people with different views, those on the other side of the fence would not work with us.
We do not want that to be the case at Redeemer. If you hold a view that differs from church policy or of the personal approach of the pastor, you should not feel bound to leave. We know what it was like to be “disfellowshipped” over this issue once! We will not do it to anyone else.”
“Otherwise, I’ll ask the bus driver tomorrow who the Sons of God were in Genesis, and I’ll get back to you with his thoughts.”
Scholars do not agree on that one. Just ask him if he knows Jesus. You might learn something real.
And here’s the part I was talking about earlier:
“In a nutshell, our position is this: whatever a non-ruling elder male can do in the church, a woman can do. We do not believe that I Timothy 2:11 or I Corinthians 14:35-36 precludes women teaching the Bible to men or speaking publicly. To “teach with authority” (I Timothy 2:11) refers to disciplinary authority over the doctrine of someone.”
I’m not saying I agree with his view, but this is a far greater role for women than most Comps allow.
Anonymous, I’m not getting you. What is your take on these bible verses?
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Matthew 18:3
And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
“The Woman’s Vote” (or not) – as seen in Boardwalk Empire.
I’m starting to get deja vu with this cringeable moment and the RHE debate about how she’s not ‘educated’. Back in your box women!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCEdU_7aR50
Background explanation:
The Commodore finds women voting a frightening prospect. Nucky sees a vote as a vote. The Commodore calls for his maid, Louanne, and is irritated when she does not come. He rings a hand bell, annoying Nucky. Louanne eventually arrives and The Commodore berates her for being slow to respond. The Commodore asks Louanne to tell Nucky her thoughts about the League of Nations and she is unable to comment. The Commodore moves on to the Halliday Act and she apologises for not being versed in such matters. The Commodore was using Louanne to make a point to Nucky about how ill informed he believes female voters are.
http://boardwalkempire.wikia.com/wiki/Commodore_Louis_Kaestner
JeffS:
Thanks. That is great information to have. Our church is similar to Redeemer in its beliefs. I can identify with what he is saying.
One of our members was upset because we have had women teach in Sunday School and because we have women who pass out the elements during communion, take up the offering etc. He objected because he said that he thought our church held a complimentarian viewpoint we should not have these things.
Our point to him is that we do not hold a view called “complimentarian” that other people define which then tells us what we can and cannot do in all of these particulars.
It’s amazing how people want to stretch things to extremes.
Hatch:
I certainly believe these verses. And I believe that God reveals himself to people who enter as a child.
But you are misapplying these verses.
These verses do not support the concept that believers should be know-nothings.
There are numerous verses in the Bible that encourage us to study, to know the Scriptures, and to have pastors and teachers who are knowledgeable.
Is your pastor a child? Are the people who teach the Sunday School classes at your church the most untrained and unknowledgeable in the faith?
It seems to me that the criticisms of Ms. Evans is that she is essentially untrained and is wading into waters where she can’t swim. My 20 year old nephew says as much. My pastor thought so, too. Basically anyone who doesn’t have some grudge or ax to grind against Ms. Evans’ critics seems to fault her because he book is just not that smart.
I am not questioning her faith or walk. I have never heard or read her. And if she is as ignorant as people say, then I probably will read someone else who can actually teach me something.
Being a free market person, however, I applaud her success. I believe that the national media is likely to continue to give her a spot light. She’s earned it. That’s one of the great things about America.
Hatch:
I would enjoy reading an educated person’s interpretation of the OT and its application to NT Christians, man or woman.
I would venture to say that Anon1 or Dee or Deb, for example, would have much more cogent thoughts on that subject than the author we are discussing.
Anon1:
You miss the point. Sure, I can ask the bus driver if he knows Jesus, and he may, and his walk may be exemplary.
But I would not ask him to teach a Hebrew class or to give a discourse on textual criticism or historical theology.
The point that the critics are making re Ms. Evans is her attempt to address a subject with no educational background to do so, and to treat it in a childish way.
I have always admired that you encourage us to seek to be like the Bereans in the NT. I agree with that.
But in this case it appears that rather than have us learn from knowledgeable sources, we should go to the most untrained and ignorant sources. And that just does not make sense to me.
Btw, my pastor was shocked because while he found Ms. Evans nice, he could not believe how ignorant she was.
Anonymous:
I do not generally respond to anonymous comments but yours fired me up.
You said:”Btw, my pastor was shocked because while he found Ms. Evans nice, he could not believe how ignorant she was.”
IMO your pastor’s comment is BULL!!
Anonymous
Keller’s wife did have soe interesting things to say. I think she picked up on my point that more could be done to help people understand the relationship to the OT to the NT.
The problem with the Today Show was Evans went up against a machine which is clever in portraying a particular point of view. She has never had national exposure on such a scale and was not adept in handling the direction of the interview. But that is not uncommon.
Do you remember reading about how the media used Billy Graham in his early days and ,for one brief moment, succeeded in sucking him into the politico scene? I think I remember reading in his bio how he was upset at himself when the proess asked him to kneel outside of the building in which he met with one of the presidents (?Eisenhower). Even so, he made a number of blunders in the popular arena and he was surrounded by a staff of people. She is on her own and there sure aren’t any Christian leaders trying to support her.
I think the Calvinista crowd missed a marvelous opportunity in addressing RHE and her book. Some of the more vocal should have asked for a sit down and interviewed her from the angle of faith as opposed to the Today Show’s angle of “see the Bible is full of holes.” If one takes a big picture on RHE, as I do, you will find her as someone who has something to say about the difficulties of Biblidal exposition for the average person, what the difficult questions are and how are we addressing them. I disagree with her on some subjects but I believe she is a thoughtful person who has caused a major storm in the evangelcial community. We need to address her, not condemn her.
And why has she caused a storm? I think it has to do with the complementarian issue more than anything else. She is now public enemy number one because, if one disagrees Wayne Grudemn’s and John Piper’s rules for comp living, then one is a heretic on the level of denying the deity of Christ.
Update: Challies has linked to the same Doug Wilson post that Denny Burke did, calling it a ‘devastating critique’.
http://www.challies.com/a-la-carte/a-la-carte-111-7#disqus_thread
Anonymous
She does not address the handicapped She only addresses the women’s issues. I was trying to make a larger point that goes beyond the issue of women in the Bible. There are some things in the OT that I find difficult. This is one of them. I do not buy the explanation that the pagans who surrounded God’s people used handicapped people in their rituals so God wanted the Israelites to be different. If that is the only explanation, then I am hoping God will clear it up for me in heaven because it is weak and does not answer the deeper question.
I believe we Christians use the trow away point that we are now in the New Covenant and therfore that stuff is obsolete. However, it existed for a over millenium and we don’t solve the porblme by saying “move alon,g nothing to see here.” Thoughtful people will ponder why such a rule was necessary no matter the introduction of the new Covenant. After all, God has not changed, has He?
I believe that RHE has similar questions on the roles of women in the Bible. Frankly, I wish some of these loudmouthed self-appointed keepers of the purity of the faith would quit their yapping and start addressing, in a thoughtful manner , the issues raised so that someone that watches The Today Show would understand. Right now, all they know is that evangelical leaders think she is evil and a heretic and that they see a nice woman who is asking questions that seem reasonable.
Anonymous
As you know, the two of us are trying to steer clear of the election stuff. The only time I addressed it was about a year ago when evangelicals were up in arms over a Mormon running for President. I believe that Christian can disagree on politics although some treat it like a central faith issue.
Anonymous
There are many at SBTS and The Gospel Coalition who would think your church is bordering on “unbiblical” for allowing women to do such things. And these are the leaders. So, would you say that the leadership of these groups is extreme?
Anonymous
I do not believe that Evans is ignorant. One needs to read her over time to understand that. I believe she went to Bryan College so she had a good education from a Christian standpoint. Here is what I think ahppened. She went to some of these classes and started asking some questions that were hard to answer. I believe that the Christian church is quite weak in explaining the OT to the world. For most people, the answer is not “its over so forget about it.”
I bleive that the average person in the faith cannot answer the questions of many people and avoid going there. Perhaps your congregation is different but I interact with many people in churches and am concerned about their ability to answer anything beyond a simple explanation of the Gospel. And most of them will never talk with an atheist or agnostic because they avoid it.
Caleb W
Doug Wilson is devastating to the church’s witness in the world and the fact that these guys don’t see it is evidence that “ignorance” is pervasive.
The criticism of RHE as being somehow educationally ‘unqualified’ or to ‘ignorant’ of the biblical issues involved in her book is completely BOGUS. First, if having a Ph.D. from a seminary is a requirement to speak on the topic, then the rest of us must be silent on the issue as well – I guess we’re just supposed to accept what the Calvinista Ph.D.’s have to say without question.
Second, I’ve never heard them rip into CJ Mahaney and other non-Ph.D.’s for their lack of an advanced degree in religion. Sounds like hypocrisy and misogynism to me – paint a woman as ignorant is a popular tactic of theirs.
Third, RHE’s book is NOT a scholarly treatise, nor is it presented as such. It’s a look at issues in the Bible related to women from the perspective of an educated layperson trying to make sense of what the Bible says about women and how much of that applies in today’s world. In short, it’s a book written by a Christian believer exploring the meaning of the Bible – something almost every Christian can identify with.
“The point that the critics are making re Ms. Evans is her attempt to address a subject with no educational background to do so, and to treat it in a childish way.”
So your point is what? She is should not have written it? I have not read the book yet but plan to now.
I think where people in your camp are missing the point is that Evans has not set herself up as the “educated” guru for doctrine like Piper, Mohler, Mahaney, etc. She is asking questions and making applications in her own faulty way. So what? Why is that so threatening to your camp?
I really do think the problem is two fold when it comes to the YRR and others who have treated this book like the plague. They are worried. First the comp doctrinal stance is becoming a huge problem. There are many reasons for this and one of them is the internet. More people have access to REAL scholars like Fee, Kroegers, Bushnell, etc. So the gurus don’t have as much control as they used to over indoctrinated thinking processes and control over answering questions in the way they used to.
Secondly, the same group of guru’s and their followers are not equipped to have irenic discussions around the many questions she is asking. They want to indoctrinate not discuss. This works well with those who are not real independent thinkers. Those who love rules, creeds, neatly packaged Christianity. And I hate to say it, but that describes most of the YRR we see today.
What I find interesting is again we see this push to make “camps” or “tribes” using RHE’s book. I disagree with a lot I read over at RHE in the last few days. I disagree with Piper a lot. I disagree with Mohler a lot. I disagree with NT Wright over certain things. I think all who have written books or are teachers/preachers and make their pov’s public are worth discussing. It is called spiriutal maturity.
So I am not in an RHE camp. Nor am I in a Mohler, Mahaney, Wilson, Piper camp. I don’t do camps.
The stupidist thing the YRR and other critics have done is come out swinging. As Enns said (and I disagree with him on things, too!) this is not a book about sex trafficing, etc.
My view is that these guys are picking silly battles but important ones to them. And that speaks VOLUMES to many people.
RHE has not protected pedophiles or taught others to do that. She does not lead a church and insist people sign covenants or seek to discipline people using power and position. She is not marketing porno visions she has about others. She has not called Jesus a redneck or Esther a whore. (SBC partnerned with a Pastor that does that sort of thing) She is not asking her readers to support her with tithes but by buying her product in a free market system.
The problem boils down to this for me: YOur side is afraid of free discussion on these issues. So you come out with insults such as she is uneducated and therefore not worthy of having an opinion based upon her own study and questions. And sad to say, you have a pastor who affirms such backward thinking. Which only leads me to ascertain, I would not want to be in your church and have a disagreement with your pastor or the elders.
I think the biggest problems most of the detractors of this book have is one of language. Rachel speaks irony — the language of her generation. Most of these nouveau reformed folks don’t get it. The gentle points she makes are lost in their outrage over what they think is poor understanding of the text rather than what it is — commentary on the inconsistencies in what too many people CHOOSE as the texts they follow and elect to call “biblical.” Calling out hypocrites is very much a Jesus thing to do.
Anonynmous with the nephew and the pastor — you might actually choose to read things yourself.
One more thing, anonymous: YOur camp started with the ridiculous descriptor: Biblical Womanhood. It was coined years ago starting with the Danvers statement which some scholars have driven mac truck exegetical holes through.(McGregor-Wright, for one, who did an excellent job and he is Reformed!!!)
This term has been used ad nauseum by your camp to indoctrinate for the last 20-30 years. Why are you all surprised when after the advent of the internet people start taking a closer look at what that term really means and how it is applied? We have heard many different sorts of rules and roles for years. Few are on the same pag with their Christian rules Talmud for women.. It was never marketed as “New Testament Biblical Womanhood” so us uneducated folk might think Jael is a perfect example of Biblical Womanhood. :o)
Anonymous –
I think maybe you are attempting to address RHE with no educational background in communication styles and are treating the subject in the only way you know how. You do not even read the book, yet you don’t mind commenting on the author.
I would say that RHE is not misunderstanding the interpretations involved. I would say that she rejects the ones that your pastor and nephew hold. There’s a difference. Not only does she reject the interpretation, she rejects the method of communication they employ. She chooses to communicate in a different way, and it is your nephew, your pastor and you who seem to be missing out on what is being said.
From the Challies link-
“Doug Wilson looks at Rachel Held Evans’ new book and offers a devastating critique. “I think we have better things to do than learn about biblical womanhood from someone who is having trouble with distinguishing subjects from predicates.”
Well….Doug (and Tim),
I guess if you put it that way, then I think I have better things to do than learn about “Gospel Deeps” from your buddy Jared C. Wilson, who tweets (for the public to resd) about standing in line buying his underwear at TJ Maxx worrying that he won’t get the check out girl that goes to his church. Or, from someone who insults his readers reading comprehension. Or, from someone who tweets mocking insults about people’s physical appearances.
And… what can I learn from a supposed self-ordained, denomination inventor, wordsmithy, ambiguous gospel preacher (you just gotta know him, you gotta know him says John Piper) “pastor” who hid a pedophile from his own congregation for months, helped him obtain legal counsel, pleaded with the judge for mercy, since he felt Sitler had “really repented” and even married him off last year to a young woman with whom he fully intends to have children even though he is on lifetime probation and cannot be left alone with any child? (All while saying in his Fidelity book that pedophiles are not a good gene pool from which to pick sons in law…huh? but ok for other women, I guess.)
My goodness-this is concerning…what can I possibly learn from Tim Challies? A definition of total depravity? From his A La Carte today:
“Christians Are Sinners Too – Here’s the best line from an article at the Westminster Seminary blog: “We not only believe in total depravity, we practice it too!” Ain’t that the truth.
No it ain’t. But what I can learn from Challies is that he agrees he practices total depravity. What could I learn about the faith from him? How to practice sinning? But does total depravity mean gross sinning?
Total Depravity or Total Inability
“Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not – indeed he cannot -choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ – it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation – it is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.”
Calvinism-Total Depravity, from Biblelife.org
I thought the general ideas Kathy Keller stated were objections I would have had. It seems RHE does deliberately and knowingly misconstrue some passages of scripture (admittedly, I haven’t read it, but the examples stated do sound like she did this). Doing this weakens her points I think, though I think the point she is trying to make is a good one. I would actually really like to hear a conversation between (or maybe read a co-authored book by) Kathy and Rachel. I think those two might have one of the more beneficial conversations on this topic. I must admit I’ve long been a complementarian, but now I’m not sure- Piper has just about converted me to egalitarian! I take no stand at all on the issue now- I’m waiting for complementarians to offer a framework that makes sense and is not oppressive- until that point I’ll function as an egalitarian.
The one objection to Keller’s critique I had when she asserts that RHE was influenced outside of scripture. One of the things that scares me about how some interpret scripture is that they do an end run about commands to “love” and “show compassion” by redefining those words to mean something entirely different, citing that our definitions are influenced by the culture. I agree that we need to understand these words in terms of scripture, however we must be very careful not to redefine these words to mean things so different that they lose all meaning. Both Paul and Christ said loving our fellow humans was the summation of the law- we cannot set any scripture against this principle, and redefining “love” to justify oppression is the game of Pharisees.
I do think that this culture gives a lot of credence to “me and my Bible” type teaching, which can lead to a lot of bad things. Whatever RHE intends, many people may latch on to what she’s saying because they like the message they think she’s preaching and feel bolstered by her indepentend spirit. That’s not a good thing, IMO. But on the flip side, I would accuse Piper and a lot of his crew for pulling “me and my Bible” type teaching, especially when he takes a stand on something that is different from his church (a permemence view of marriage). When you compare Piper’s position paper on remarriage and divorce vs David Instone-Brewer’s work, Piper comes off as just some guy with an idea and a Bible, just the same as RHE. IB is the scholar with a depth of understanding that is rooted in intense study and discipline.
So maybe this is the issue for me- I don’t see much difference between John Piper and RHE. Neither of them are biblical scholars, and both appear to be intelligent people with knowledge of the Bible. The only difference is that many people believe that Piper’s platform is ordained and RHE is not. I think they both need to be very careful about how they lead others, because they will be held responsible as long as they presume to teach. I see many people attempting to hold RHE accountable- I hope she listened and is able to glean wisdom. Who is calling for Piper to be accountable, and is he listening?
OK, a scholarly defence of RHE here:
http://kolhaadam.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/in-defense-of-rachel-held-evans-and-a-year-of-biblical-womanhood/
(don’t know how to make that a link, so copy and paste and read a very good critique of Kathy Keller’s response to Rachel’s book)
Also, good comments Anon 1
Jeff T;
Yeah, but I really don’t see Rachel as “leading” – not the way Piper et. all do anyways. She asks questions, points out the contradictions in the Bible and leaves it at that. Then, the other side over-reacts to her questions.
Driscoll (and likely others there) have gone ballistic on congregants for a “questioning spirit” – as if that is a sin! Piper and his “it’s a sin to not like predestination” is also just a chip-on-should provocation, not true teaching. Keller sends his wife after her, classy, really, that was low. And the condescension these guys project towards her is unbelievable.
To compare her “influence” to theirs is crazy. She is where she is because, like the kid in the “emperor has no clothes” she called out “you do realize…{fill in the blank}, right? and they freaked. How dare she ask us???? Then, readers began to flock to her site and fill in the blanks she didn’t know. The commenters began to join the conversation and add to the questions. They (commenters) opened up the door to legitimate critiques – see her blog-call over Piper’s “masculine” christianity. She didn’t write a stunning critique – she opened up the floor. Reading her is like reading a plethora of great people all weighing in. She gets the power of the internet in ways the others just don’t get – and that is why they are running scared right now.
Honesty is not an easy road if you are trying to look like the “right” way. Rachel had no such agenda, so she could afford honesty. It has cost her – read Burk’s Rachel says this, Rachel says that comments. But, through it, she has gained a following. People trust her in ways they don’t trust the others. Open, honest questions about the church are fine with her. There is no “are you a true believer” inquisition going on in her blog comments. She doesn’t delete the comments that don’t fully support her view – and she engages in them. If a comment of mine stays up on the TGC sites, they are usually ignored. I have NEVER seen a TGC blogger say they stand corrected due to their commenters reactions. Rachel has done this twice. (NT Write being a Calvinist and herself not being a feminist because she loves men). That has gone miles for her. She is humble – a rare, rare trait in Christianity today, and vulnerable.
This under 30 generation values those traits far more than the over 40 set, so she appeals. Being right and arrogant gets one nowhere with this younger generation.
Eagle
And they will calmly say that all were wicked and unregenerate and come up with more such as gospel women clean their toliets once a week.
Jeff S
I believe that RHE is far more accuntable than John Piper. She allows comments and gets panned all the time. Piper will NOT allow comments on his blog.
Dee, that was the point I was (perhaps too) subtly trying to make.
Jeff S “I must admit I’ve long been a complementarian, but now I’m not sure- Piper has just about converted me to egalitarian!”
I’m right there with you on that point!
Eagle
And they will calmly say that all were wicked and unregenerate and come up with more such as gospel women clean their toliets once a week. — Dee
Only once a week?
Why not once a day? It’s Biblical(TM)!
“WOMAN! DO AS I SAY OR I BEAT YOU!”
(Humbly(TM) and in a Biblical(TM) way, of course)
Jeff S and Dave AA –
“Jeff S “I must admit I’ve long been a complementarian, but now I’m not sure- Piper has just about converted me to egalitarian!”
I’m right there with you on that point!
I have a question for the both of you. How exactly is beeing more egalitarian versus complementarian going to play out in your lives (assuming you are both married)?
Will you lead less? Will you give less input to your wife? Will you request more input from your wife? Will you share in the child rearing more? Will you work less? Will you clean the house up more? Will you pray for direction less? Will you love your wife more? Will your wife agree with you that egalitarianism is better for the two of you?
Curious minds would like to know 🙂
Jeff S
I know. I was repeating what you were saying in my own words. Sorry if it was not clear.
HUG —
I once knew a couple where the wife was asked to completely clean the house “every day.” It was only a small two bedroom apartment with two of them living in it, but two-three hours every morning she cleaned. I was a young adult working with the teens and he was overseeing that area. I had some reservations about this man in my own dealings with him, but when I found out that this was a requirement of his wife, I knew that I no longer wanted to have anything to do with him. I resigned from a small position that I had where he was being slave-driver toward me and others. He was not happy and used all sorts of verses to inflict guilt. It didn’t work. Shortly after this he left our church. Shortly after that his wife divorced him. I was a relatively young new christian, but it didn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that something was amiss. I felt very bad for his wife. She was a saint, but very naive and the man new it and used it to his advantage.
Bridget
You know, I had the same thought. My guess is that there will be no functional difference. That is the point I often make. Most comps act egal but say they are comps .
Most comps act egal but say they are comps
I think it’s because most women won’t go along with that BS 🙂
I am divorced, so there’s no difference for me in my current relationships.
As for whether my previous marriage was egal . . . I don’t know. It’s a complex and difficult question for me to answer at this time. I think the effects of comp thinking show up in subtle ways, even if couples mostly behave egal. But if we were comp in our behavior, it was never because I demanded her to do anything. I figured my job was to love and submit- she could worry about what her job was (which are the same things, right?).
I’ve been thinking long and hard how I would approach a future mate who has bought into the more specific ways of behaving that Piper suggests, especially if she has family pushing her to be that way. On the whole, I don’t want to marry someone who has no identity or expects me to tell her how to behave. And maybe the first time around I might have not felt as strongly that my mate needed to be self assured, but I sure do now.
Jeff S —
Thanks for that reply. Hope you didn’t feel “put on the spot.” I’m just a curious cat about some things. I’m sure I ask too many questions for some people, but they can always decline an answer. I wan’t sure which Jeff you were, but I remember your story now. If you have daughters, help them to be thinkers 🙂 It’s the best gift to give them!
And, yes, love and submit go both ways for me.
Val, This was excellent!
http://kolhaadam.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/in-defense-of-rachel-held-evans-and-a-year-of-biblical-womanhood/
I hope everyone will go over and read it. It is basically a critique of Kathy Kellers hermeneutics in HER review of RHE’s book. Lots of interesting things to consider.
This is why I no longer pay attention to pleas concerning orthodoxy, historically approved hermeneutics, church history, etc, etc. Heck, I don’t even know how they define those concepts anymore. Seems church history started with Calvin for some, Augustine, for others. It seems to be a moving target. Evidently pedophile sin is easily forgiven and forgotten but Evans is ignorant and uneducated and blasphemed God according to some critics and their fellow travellors. I know for certain I do not define them with the determinist God filter that Keller might use as a Presbyterian. She has a right to interpret scripture with that filter and even teach it to the masses. I have a right to reject it and argue against it.
This review is worth your time. Seems our NC crtics have not done their homework as this person cites scholars who have been having the same debate they are accusing Evans of being totally ignorant concerning.
@Anonymous on Thu Nov 01, 2012 at 08:30 AM said:
“I certainly believe these verses. And I believe that God reveals himself to people who enter as a child. But you are misapplying these verses. These verses do not support the concept that believers should be know-nothings. There are numerous verses in the Bible that encourage us to study, to know the Scriptures, and to have pastors and teachers who are knowledgeable”.
Anonymous – my question to you was ‘what is your take on these bible verses’ – it was a genuine question,. I did not ‘apply’ those verses to anything, so how can they then be ‘misapplied’ ? But way to go with being dismissive and thinking I’m exceptionally unintelligent. Of COURSE we are called to be educated, to study, etc. But that wasn’t my question was it? Your answer was revealing though – it said a lot about you. And btw, I don’t have a church or Sunday School, I choose to avoid those in case I bump into people like yourself or Denny Burk, who tell me how and what I should be thinking. You assume too much. I’m agnostic bordering on atheist.
More good grist for the mill here:
http://michaelnewnham.com/?p=622
No, I love to talk about myself- don’t worry about putting me on the spot :p
I’ve thought a lot about comp/egal and how it may have affected my marriage, even though I never thought about it much while I was married. But perhaps men have the privilege of not thinking about it? I am struggling to find anything good that came out of any kind of comp influenced thinking that was there.
Bridget,
I’m very glad that curious minds wold like to know! I am married, and your questions are a very real, practical “work in progress” for me right now. This evening or tomorrow I would like to elaborate. In the meantime, my wife has been begging me for days now to get this mess of a house tidied up, and my efforts to convince it to clean itself have failed! “If you have daughters, help them to be thinkers”. Wow– will tell a story about that also! Stay tuned.
“But perhaps men have the privilege of not thinking about it”
LOL!
TedS
Thanks for the link. Tomorrow i am covering one of your favorite topics “he whose name must not be spoken” aka Mark.I think you will like this one. The title is going to be something along the lines of Mark Driscoll: You Are No Captain Sully!
TedS,
Comment from your link:
“I have determined that Paul was turned into Moses by post reformation Christians.”
LOL!!!
There seem to be a number of “educated” men who are a little insecure about RHE’s lack (as they perceive it) of learning. They seem to feel that what a Godly™ Gospel™ minister needs is whatever they’ve got.
Several things.
Knowledge, which is nothing compared to love, puffs up – that is, it increases size without increasing substance. Studying scripture is good and necessary, but dangerous: because Bible study that feeds the fleshly ego, and leads to pride and condescension, is idolatry and sin. If I can fathom all knowledge, but have no love, I am nothing. Not “less than totally effective” – nothing.
The Pharisees, the scribes, and the teachers of the law, likewise noticed the boldness of Peter and John and likewise noticed that they were unlettered and unlearned men. They’d been with Jesus, granted, but what difference did that make among that mob that knew nothing of the law? The point: learning is not, in itself, wrong; but neither learning nor lack of it make for spiritual stature. Being with Jesus, and being changed to the core by the encounter, do. Paul had accumulated many of the trappings of Bible™ learning; but he considered them (literally) excrement in comparison to gaining Christ.
One more thing. My first serious study of a certain famous preacher from Seattle took place last year, when some friends asked us to join them in listening to a series of podcasts from [rhymes with “park fiscall”] on spiritual gifts. I had high expectations, having heard good things about the young man in question. But by the end of week five I was astonished and appalled at the sloppy exegesis and sheer crude inaccuracy of the “teaching” on offer. He seemed to have little idea of what a spiritual gift is, for a start, clearly had no grasp of scripture, and in boldly setting out “what the bible teaches”, was meddling ill-advisedly with matters far outside his gifting. He really should stick to vision-casting and pro-istemi leadership, which is biblical and at which he clearly does excel. I have yet to read RHE’s book, but if she is as illiterate as the calvinistas claim, she’s in famous company.
Val, This was excellent!
http://kolhaadam.wordpress.com/2012/10/30/in-defense-of-rachel-held-evans-and-a-year-of-biblical-womanhood/
I second that!
Also check out the following comment to this article by Morgan Guyton:
You might also appreciate a piece I wrote for Reformation Day on the way that Augustine in his De Doctrina Christiana promotes the same hermeneutical standard that Rachel describes as a “prejudice of love” with which she reads the Bible: http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/reformation-day-restoring-augustines-hermeneutic/
Including love as a standard for interpreting the Bible seems to be anathema to Calvinistas (perhaps it’s not a ‘manly’ criteria?)- they seem to prefer wrath.
Matthew 22:36-38
“Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”
That should say it all. RHE has it right.
More good grist for the mill here:
http://michaelnewnham.com/?p=622
Loved their link #13:
Kenneth Copeland Ministries will host election coverage Tuesday night.
That oughtta be good.;-)
Don’t know how accurate it is, but I’ve been taught that some of those rules simply served the purpose of making the Israelites stand out as not the people around them. That God was teaching the principal that we indeed are to be in the world, but that God’s people are separate from that world.
In many ways, they may have functioned much like gang tattoes do today, creating a people separated from the larger population.
Jeff S –
“But perhaps men have the privilege of not thinking about it?”
I think this IS true for some men.
But I actually believe that the comp/pat position has done harm and been difficult for some men as well. I think there is much pressure and stress put on men by other men, and sometimes their own wives, to “live up to” a standard that God never intended.
Remember the woman is to be a “helper.” This could be worked out in thousands of different ways, depending on the couple. The comp/pat positions seems to put the relationship between husband and wife into a nice tidy little box. The problem is that life doesn’t come in nice tidy little boxes (as we see with Larrisa and her hubby) and instead of looking to God for help and wisdom for the chaos of life, we look to a system (comp/pat) to fix it. Then, we have the Piper’s of the world who look at the Larrisa’s of the world and say stupid things (that most people find bizarre) to make them continue to fit into the box.
linda
I do believe that what you say is true in some instances-circumcision, hair length, dress, etc. I still have a hard time with excluding dwarfs and other handicapped people from presenting the sacrifice.
Jeff T
Oh good night! Years ago we wrote a piece on Copeland. i believe that he was the guy who told us how tall God is and how wide his hand breadth measures.
Years ago we wrote a piece on Copeland. i believe that he was the guy who told us how tall God is and how wide his hand breadth measures. — Dee
I remember hearing about an Appalachian folk belief that Christ was the only person in history exactly six feet tall, but I kind of doubt that was related.
I once knew a couple where the wife was asked to completely clean the house “every day.” It was only a small two bedroom apartment with two of them living in it, but two-three hours every morning she cleaned. — Bridget
Sounds like a combination of Neat Freak and Control Freak. Did he do the White Glove Inspection and/or have a stroke if he found even a speck of dust?
I was a young adult working with the teens and he was overseeing that area. I had some reservations about this man in my own dealings with him, but when I found out that this was a requirement of his wife, I knew that I no longer wanted to have anything to do with him. I resigned from a small position that I had where he was being slave-driver toward me and others. — Bridget
Sounds like that was the only mode he had to relate to anyone else.
Sounds red, round, and puckery.
He was not happy and used all sorts of verses to inflict guilt. — Bridget
Narcissists and Sociopaths often demonstrate a Mutant Power to Inflict Guilt. As well as a Mutant Power to Redefine Reality. And in a Church context, that usually means Guilt Manipulation through God-Talk. God and Christ become nothing more than just another weapon to use in the Guilt Manipulation.
Shortly after that his wife divorced him. — Brigit
I’m not surprised. Let me guess — he was the only one who didn’t see that coming? Rationalized it away as “Satan Hath Entered Into My Wife” and redefined reality to make himself a Martyr?
Nick Bulbeck, you write such awesome posts.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/bibleandculture/2012/10/30/women-in-the-hood-a-year-of-biblical-womanhood/
I could have missed this in the many posts above, but this is the best favorable review of RHE’s book that I’ve seen. I’ve been reading the book and I don’t see what the usual suspects are getting up in arms about. RHE is (as she does) gently confronting a rigid mindset that had tradmarked and sold the word “biblical.” I’m pleased by her book because its something I can talk to friends who do not believe in God about. (sorry for the poor grammar.) TGC (and others) seem to want to reenact the Salem witch trials (no this is not a shameless paean to our blogging diva hostesses). I can see Denny Burk as Cotton Mather. Anyone?
Juniper:
I’ll say this Burke sure has done everything he can to discredit RHE. I do not believe it will work.
Bridget asked:: How exactly is being more egalitarian versus complementarian going to play out in your life? A: the biggest, most entrenched area, I think, is laying down my perceived tie-break or veto rights. I’ve been roughly in agreement with Keller in this area, and may have acted “egal”. But many times I’ve “given in” on decisions, only with resentment that my direction wasn’t heeded, because “she should have just submitted”. I became good at undercutting, I Told You So’s, and just doing what I wanted anyway without discussing it. Because I was trying to be “head” and “lead”. But my wife sometimes didn’t want to just go along with the program.
I think I’ll skip some of specific questions right now, which would have been more appropriate 5 years ago. Life is no longer in the tidy boxes it was. I’m now a FT domestic engineer and part-time child-rearer. Will you love your wife more? Yes. Will your wife agree with you that egalitarianism is better for the two of you? Yes.
Re: If you have daughters, help them to be thinkers.
One of my daughters recently told me that her friend (whom I’ve not met) told her, “Your Dad must be REALLY LIBERAL!” My mind raced through her first 18 years. Liberal? Really? What was it?? Elsie Dinsmore? The ultra-modest attire? Protecting her from TV, and Harvest and Winter Parties? Driving 30 miles to a secluded swimming spot to protect her from seeing “Thong Man”? (Google if you dare) The Wait for Marriage ring? Encouraging her to marry the first boy she liked, even though he wanted to remain a boy, and not remain married? “Why did she say that?” I asked. “You encouraged me to pursue my education and career, and to think for myself!” was her reply. I guess I was a bit better patriarch during the last 13 years!
Juniper – It’s all too easy to figure out why some people are causing such a ruckus: RHE is a woman. An educated, articulate, pull-no-punches – but compassionate – woman.
I think they all feel threatened.
Dee – I do *not* get the restrictions on diaabled and wounded, maimed etc. people in the OT. My hunch is that these rules have more to do with folklore than with actual facts on the ground – given that the OT was pretty much pulled together post-Babylonian exile, well… (I know you likely don’t subscribe to that idea, and I used to be in that category, but now… not so much. I think textual analysis of the Torah makes it pretty clear that there were different writers involved, and that different parts of the texts date to different times entirely – which seems to be a given with many ancient manuscripts, not just the Pentateuch. Part of the problem for many seems to lie in the hyper-literal interpretation accorded to “… of Moses”; ditto for “of David” and “of [other writers’ name]” in Psalms. “Of” in these cases is more than likely “in the style of” and/or “these are the traditions of…” that autograph-perfect authorship – which is a pretty modern concept.)
Jeff T – thanks for the great link, Nick, thanks for weighing in.
Also,
Just through the first chapter of RHE’s book. I haven’t found unexplained sloppy hermeneutics yet. She explains why she decided to do penance on the roof clearly. Not sure why the Doug Wilson’s of the world missed this point (probably from not actually reading her book). I can’t speak for others, but this book has drawing power.
As she lives out the virtues, they grow on her, and by extension the reader. I want to cultivate a gentle and quite spirit as Jesus commanded *Everyone* to do (not just women). If the book continues like this, it will be helpful to me. I have certainly noticed the effect of her attempts to practice virtues on her blog. She is so calm and gracious while the critics are character-assasinating her, sometimes in live time. Not sure she would have been as gentle pre-year of practicing virtues in the Bible.
Well, I will have to see if she is going to start misleading me about the Good Book, but I am more suspicious then ever that her detractors either a) didnt’ read it, or b) skimmed it. Sitting through her first month has less to do with her (good or bad) hermeneutics and more to do with her attempts to be something she feels she can’t be, then learning how to rest in God and finding that is the way to have a gentle spirit – while still being strong. Do they go after Ann Voskamp too?
Val – my guess is that most of them cherry-picked her publishers’ press kit and/or one-sheet press releases.
[sigh – oh for actual book reviewers who read advance copies from cover to cover!]
Nick – you’re da man
numo and Mot,
Agreed! If ever SGMers should be able to read the writing on the wall, it is NOW! Maybe only the true believers are hanging on.
Juniper
I can see Doug Wilson as one of the trembling girls, pointing his finger at someone and crying “Witch.”
DaveAA
That comment at 1:28AM is the comment of the month!!!Thank you for your honesty. Youi truly deserve the title of TWW apostle! Thank you for being willing to share in such a transparent manner.
Val
I bet they do not read each others books before they “endorse” them. I am suspicious that many often pretend to read the books so others will pretend to read theirs and endorse them.
Dave A A –
Thank you for responding in such detail. I was curious on your take, from the manly side. In the past 11 months, I have pretty much come to the conclusion that my marriage was much more egal than comp. I just don’t see how one camp functions that much differently than the other unless “discretionary” lording is allowed in the comp camp.
Val –
I believe that one of the TGC guys did get after Ann Voskamp when her book came out.
Dee–yes, if we read our current culture back into the OT we can get awfully confused.
Re the midgets and others banned from serving in the temple:
No one had the “right” to be a priest, just as today no one has a “right” to church leadership or ordination.
God chooses and calls whom God wills.
In the OT we see progressive revelation at work. And eye for an eye may sound barbaric to us, but to them it was pure bleeding heart liberalism. In their culture previously, insult me and I may off with your head. God’s justice and mercy are slowly being revealed.
The priests were types or shadows of Christ, as was the sacrificial lamb.
Just as the lamb had to be without defect, so did the priests, pointing ahead to Christ our perfect Lamb of God and great High Priest.
Today we shudder to call anything a defect, but not in those days.
Allowing those visibly defective to serve would not have been an accurate foreshadowing of Christ.
Brridget – a while back the whole what is a comp/egal marriage was hashed out in the comment section of RHE’s blog, with everyone deciding our marriages were all about the same degree of mutuality, yet labelling them differently. Many pointed out their parents would call their marriages comp. and they would call them egal. but they were living out (the decision making) pretty much the same between generations.
So, it was settled. …Until, I kid you not, some panel at TGC had a speaker claim marriages these days weren’t comp enough (were they reading Rachel’s blog first?, because, if is on her blog, it must be wrong, ITO -In Their Opinion-). Shortly after, they quoted Doug Wilson claiming the marriages have to be submissive, even in the bedroom, against, well, people on both side’s view of the Bible. And now, Rachel is persona non grata, a threat, dangerous. I went from thinking, OK, we can agree to disagree, to thinking, they have totally lost sight of Jesus Christ and are now all about gender roles, who cares how many people they turn away!
I think Rachel may have overturned a rock and sent revealed a much less God-centred heart in many of these guys. Otherwise, who cares how comp/egal someone’s marriage is – it isn’t a Kingdom priority anyways.
@ Dee/Deb
I think you may need to consider adding something to your blog. 🙂
You have the counter going of how many days goes by before TGC mentions the SGM lawsuit. I think you should add a counter of how many times Denny Burk posts an article on his blog about Rachel Held Evans. He seems to be very, very interested in her. I’ve counted 7 posts on his blog about her in the last 10 days. The commenters in his latest Evans post (yesterday) are picking up on the weird frequency of these posts.
Diane – I love your idea!
I think he is just trying to make sure the ladies in his arena don’t pay too much attention. Rachel is getting a lot of national attention . . . must be aweful hard for some peeps to swallow
I think the blog counter is a good idea too. Maybe he’ll see how odd it looks and how much more attention it is drawing to the book.
I think you should add a counter of how many times Denny Burk posts an article on his blog about Rachel Held Evans. He seems to be very, very interested in her. I’ve counted 7 posts on his blog about her in the last 10 days. The commenters in his latest Evans post (yesterday) are picking up on the weird frequency of these posts.
Not only that. He deleted one post– his third or fourth one about Rachel Held Evans– called “What is an Evangelical?” in which he explained why she was not one. I asked him why three posts in a row about RHE and said it was starting to look like a vendetta. The next day that post was gone. But since then he has posted three or four more/
Accuracy astonishment?
Numo,
Hello,
When the Dead Sea Scrolls were examined by Jewish scholars, (in this paticular case the book of Isaiah) they were absolutely astonished at the accuracy of the current text when mapped against that of the discovered text, which subsequently provided a dating range of 200 BCE – 1 CE. The Authenticity of Old Testament Scripture, can we trust it? Consider Carefully? You Decide.
Blessings!
IronClad
—
P.S. I am glad you were in the shadow of His mighty wings, during the tremendous storm. My prayers in general were exhausting! Forgive me for not being able to push it out to sea. I will have to humbly request a refund on that”mustard seed”. I am still heart anguished with earnest prayer for those most severely afflicted. I am however quietly please not to have numbered you among them, my prayers are with you: “O continue Your lovingkindness to those who know You, And Your righteousness to the upright in heart.” Psalms 36:10. ATB
TO ALL OF OUR READERS:
You may be interested to know that this post has surpassed a post on creationsim as the Number One most commented post of all time at TWW. RHE is sure shaking things up in Christendom.
if one disagrees Wayne Grudemn’s and John Piper’s rules for comp living, then one is a heretic on the level of denying the deity of Christ.
Well, if the Deity of Christ is completely dependent on Young Earth Creationism, why not also on Male Supremacy?
You may be interested to know that this post has surpassed a post on creationsim as the Number One most commented post of all time at TWW. RHE is sure shaking things up in Christendom. — Dee
And that pic with the “Dan Is Awesome” sign is cute.
IronClad – am not sure one can make a case for the entirety of the OT based solely on the Dead Sea Scrolls, as – to the best of my knowledge (please correct me if I’m wrong!) – there are only portions of the OT in that archive.
whether or not dating is accurate is, in some ways, kind of irrelevant to the point I was trying to make, but hey… text-only communication can be confusing at the very best of times, for me!
Hope I’m coming across clearly. 🙂
best,
numo
P.S. – IronClad, thank you for your concern and for your prayers! But please take it easy on yourself… God is God, and we cannot shoulder all the burdens of the world by ourselves.
I know this thread is pretty much dead but I finally got the chance to read Kathy Keller’s review of the book. While thinking on it I have to wonder exactly what she does do with the Jerusalem Council and Paul’s Nazarite vow in Acts?
This issue about the law is not as clear cut as she wants to make it in order to critique how Evans approached her book project.
LOL Anon 1 – I actually learned something from the comment thread on her post – that Paul went and purified himself and paid a priest to do a sacrifice for him. I am sure TGC will twist it around to say it is bad hermeneutics to believe that meant anything (then we can have fun critiquing their hermeneutics) or some other silly excuse.
Kind of funny that a post critiquing Rachel’s understanding of the relationship between the Old and New Testament has glaring errors in that area, but… I guess all if fair in battling the heretics in their opinion. I am about 45% through Rachel’s book, no strawmen, no deceiving the reader about what the Bible says, no mockery yet… and it doesn’t look like it will show up later… I wish they would cite exactly where their problems with mockery or deception exist, and that they would actually read the book, not skim it… The book is pretty clear that she is poking holes in modern, western evangelical’s interpretations of 2,000, or more, year old texts, not the texts themselves.
Plus, is all this so far off the Amish, Quiverfull or other groups literal readings? Long hair, skirts only, head-coverings, no birth control (even Catholic approved natural forms), polygamy (fringe Christians in her book), they are practiced today. Keller says no one applies it this way. Duggers anyone? Do those Duggar girls ever wear pants or cut their hair? I bet it is their literal readings of the Bible that inform their dress choice and hair cuts.
Anon 1
Here is a great rebuttal to Kathy Keller’s review:
http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/2012/11/01/biblicalwomanhood-what-kathy-keller-missed/
Hope it links, if not, copy and paste. A bit academic but it is worth the read.
Val, thanks for calling my review academic. I didn’t realize it was. This post is a really healthy challenge. Why not accept the challenge to explain your view rather than ad hominem attack your theological opponent?
Morgan Guyton
Sorry, I meant it was less simple/quick reading than many posts people link to on the thread. I didn’t mean it was bad, just a little different than some other links (longer, takes longer to think it all through). Sorry, after so many Driscoll/ Mahaney links, yours seemed deeper, more thoughtful.
My apologies if the world I used was negative. I didn’t mean it that way.
I didn’t take Val’s comment and link to the thread as negative at all, but I just went and had really good read. I can see a huge amount of work has gone into the post and responding to comments. I was fascinated by the interaction between MG and serrevin but also mentally exhausted by the time it was all over. #need to take a short walk outside as brain is now chokka
And while Val was so quick to apologise and made it look easy, I’d like to apologise to ‘anonymous’ for doing a spew at him. I felt ashamed afterwards – I’m sorry I lost my temper. I posted when I was cranky at the comment and should have taken a breather. I’m learning…
Val
I do not think that Morgan was critiquing you. He was referring back to the article and emphasizing his critque of Keller. I realized that after reading it twice. I wrote him and we are going to repost his review here.
Haitch
I got permission and I am going to reprint that article here, probably when i am away. I reformatted it to emphasize some of the quotes. I am sure he did not mean to be critical of Val. I think he was referring back to his concern about Keller’s review and mixed them together.
Val you said —
“The book is pretty clear that she is poking holes in modern, western evangelical’s interpretations of 2,000, or more, year old texts, not the texts themselves.”
But this is exactly why they attack her so fiercely. She is poking holes in what some people believe and, in some cases, what is called orthodoxy, or the beliefs of some of the “fathers of the faith.” Orthodoxy has been placed on a pedastel for many, and they prefer to believe what someone else believed and wrote instead of wrestling with the texts themselves as we see RHE doing. If we only view the scriptures through the eyes of others, we are doomed to repeat their mistakes as well as gladly repeating what they understood correctly.
Bridget —
“If we only view the scriptures through the eyes of others, we are doomed to repeat their mistakes as well as gladly repeating what they understood correctly.”
Or perhaps incorrectly.
I’ve known people who seem to read “My Utmost For His Highest” every day, like a super-nutritious drink to get in one’s system.
Morgan Guyton writes:
Word!
http://morganguyton.wordpress.com/2012/11/01/biblicalwomanhood-what-kathy-keller-missed/
Bridget – Oh, I didn’t know the Church fathers had much to say about women in their writings – well, nothing used today. Do you know what is considered Orthodoxy regarding women? I know the priesthood is exclusively male, but a) I have never been that comfortable with the priesthood to begin with, and b) no Protestant church has a priesthood (well, Anglicans don’t really, though some use the word ‘priest’ for a male reverend). So mostly what I think Rachel is getting at is how we love to turn the Bible into a how-to book for suburban middle class families. How to live out perfect gender roles, how-to live in a “godly” marriage, how-to – this and that. I didn’t actually know she was touching on true orthodoxy (church father’s prescribing gender roles), interesting. Can you point me to who I should google to learn more?
Dee – Oh? Sorry, I thought my use of the word “academic” offended him. I have occasionally heard it can be insulting to Christians in some southern states to be called that word, but I don’t know if that is true, or why. So, I’m glad he isn’t upset with the word. I think ‘academic’ is a complement – because it involves hard work and deep thinking, just hard for us non-academics to read (I often use a note pad to keep track).
Val
You said no “Protestant church has a priesthood” Shhhh, don’t tell Driscoll, Dever, Mahaney, Mohler, Piper, et al.
Just found this article by Matthew Lee Anderson who identifies as complimentarian – it’s a post not just about his take on Biblical Womanhood and RHE but blogging culture also. I feel I need to go back and read it a few more times.
The last 5 paragraphs are pretty punchy. Posting this ‘after the fact’ for posterity.
http://www.mereorthodoxy.com/controversy-and-interpretation-biblical-womanhood/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=controversy-and-interpretation-biblical-womanhood
Read what the real pastor mark says about the book:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2012/11/16/pastor-mark-reviews-rachel-held-evans/
RD,
Just to clarify for our readers, the Pastor Mark Review is pure satire, and it’s pretty funny!
Here’s the direct link, along with the disclaimer.
http://realpastormark.tumblr.com/post/35847243376/a-real-review-of-rachelheldevans-new-book
DISCLAIMER:
This is a fictional review not written by nor endorsed by Mark Driscoll, Mars Hill Church or the Acts 29 Network. But, it does use many repeated phrases and thoughts spoken by Pastor Mark over the past several years. This is the review Mark wishes his PR team would allow him to write.
And, by the way, the authors of this review don’t have an “ax to grind.” This is what people with a sense of humor call “satire.” You’re welcome.