TWW’s Prime Directive – Care for the Victims

"Those most upset displayed to us anger or bitterness or hatred toward SGM and their former church leaders for events that took place ten to fifteen years ago. Some were so hurt or angry that they displayed tears, raised voices, clenched fists, and other physical demonstrations of anger. As we talked about bitterness or anger, several responded with raised or strained voices to our team members insisting that they were not angry or bitter." 

Ambassadors of Reconciliation Report (page 18)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._J._Mahaney

C.J. Mahaney (Wikipedia)

I will never forget that day in 2006 when Dee phoned and said:  "You have got to read the cover story of Christianity Today.  It's called "Young Restless Reformed:  Calvinism is making a comeback and shaking up the church".  I scanned through Colin Hansen's article and recognized only a few names, specifically:  Al Mohler, John Piper, and Mark Driscoll.  I knew Mohler was president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and had heard him speak once during chapel at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (SEBTS); I was familiar with John Piper's name because my church distributed one of his books to members in the spring of 2004 when The Passion of the Christ hit theaters; and all I knew about Mark Driscoll was that he was some "cool dude" pastor who was reaching the lost in Seattle.  The others mentioned in the article were unfamiliar, which caused me to lose interest in discovering more about this Christian trend. 

Dee and I had talked for years about starting a blog that focused on Christian trends.  We gave so much lip service to it that our family and friends probably didn't take us seriously.  Then a series of circumstances occurred in both of our lives, which caused us to do some serious digging.  In the fall of 2008 the YRR leaders mentioned in the CT article (called "Calvinistas" here at TWW) kept cropping up.  One of those individuals was C.J. Mahaney, president of Sovereign Grace Ministries.  As we began to investigate this "family of churches", we came across two blogs that scrutinized this ministry, namely SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge.  We read so many accounts (through posts and comments) of members who had been hurt by the hyper-authoritarian leadership implemented throughout SGM.

In early 2009 I learned that C.J. Mahaney and Mark Driscoll had been invited to speak at the SEBTS 20/20 conference (aimed at college students).  By that time I had discovered so much about Mahaney that I was deeply troubled he was coming.  I went back and read Colin Hansen's CT article, and suddenly I knew everyone he mentioned!  On January 25, 2009, Dee and I attended a Sovereign Grace church in our area to see C.J. Mahaney in person.  We continued to conduct our research, and we became more disturbed by the day.  Finally, we launched The Wartburg Watch on March 19, 2009.

In the three and a half years we have been operating this website, we have developed many wonderful internet friendships.  Some of those blogging friends we have met in person.  Not only are we in communication with them through the comment sections under our posts, but we receive e-mails and even phone calls on our Hotline.  Confidentiality is important here at TWW, and we have been able to help a number of individuals privately, some of whom have been hurt by SGM.  For those who felt compelled to share their stories, we have published their heart-wrenching testimonies.  Because we allow comments, the dialogue that has resulted has been therapeutic to our readers as well as the guest poster.   

Although we have a few detractors who taunt us whenever we mention C.J. Mahaney or Sovereign Grace Ministries (and even when we don't), we believe our research has proven invaluable to others.  If you have not read our posts on SGM, we encourage you to check our extensive archives.  Either search "Sovereign Grace Ministries" on our blog or find SGM in the Categories section.  If you start with the older posts and work your way forward, you will receive a history lesson on Sovereign Grace Ministries.

Exactly six months ago, I wrote a post on the Ambassadors of Reconciliation assessment of SGM entitled AOR Report Released:  Just How Unhealthy is SGM? The above quote came straight out of that report.  So many SGMers (both current and former) had hoped and prayed that AoR would conduct a fair assessment of Sovereign Grace Ministries and help repair the damage that has been done by hyper-authoritarian leaders, sin-sniffing, mishandling of sex abuse cases, etc.  Unfortunately, the AoR report was a huge disappointment!  The nine-month assessment of SGM appears to have been a terrible waste of time (not to mention money) for everyone involved.  Dee and I believe it is highly probable that the class action lawsuit against SGM is the direct result of the travesty done by the Ambassadors of Reconciliation (who appear to have been in cahoots with SGM leaders).

That lawsuit was filed yesterday (October 17, 2012) in Montgomery County Circuit Court, Civil Division.  Sovereign Grace Ministries, along with eight individuals are listed as defendants.  Brent Detwiler has acquired a copy of the lawsuit and has put it on his website (link). The three plaintiffs are listed in the lawsuit as follows:

3.  Jane Doe is a female high-school student residing in Virginia who was sexuallyassaulted when she was three years old. Due to the nature of the lawsuit, she wishes to use the pseudonym Jane Doe to keep her identity confidential. Jane Doe brings this action on her own behalf and on behalf of those similarly situated.

4. Norma Noe is a 22-year old female college student residing in Maryland who was sexually assaulted when she was two years old. Due to the nature of the lawsuit, she wishes to use the pseudonym Norma Noe to keep her identity confidential. Norma Noe brings this action on her own behalf and on behalf of those similarly situated.

5.  Robin Roe is a young woman residing in Maryland whose sister was sexually assaulted by a pedophiliac stepfather. Due to the nature of the lawsuit, she wishes to use the pseudonym Robin Roe to keep her identity confidential. Robin Roe brings this action on her own behalf and on behalf of those similarly situated.

Dee will be discussing the lawsuit in our upcoming post.

As mentioned previously, Dee and I wanted to focus on trends in Christendom.  Little did we know when we launched TWW that ABUSE – physical, emotional, and spiritual – would be one of those trends.  Within two weeks of starting our blog, we began hearing from those who have been hurt in some way by their church.  From the earliest days of blogging, our prime directive here at The Wartburg Watch has been to care for the victims.  Had this been done properly by SGM leaders, we would likely not be discussing a lawsuit like this.  It is beyond us how Christian leaders could make a three year old girl forgive the one who molested her.  May God have mercy!

Interestingly, SGM has a Pastors Conference coming up in late October during which they were to discuss 'polity'.  Looks like another topic has been added to their agenda… 

In the meantime, C.J. Mahaney and his cohorts are in Louisville demonstrating how church planting is done.  As we have expressed numerous times in this forum, CAVEAT EMPTOR!

Lydia's Corner:  Leviticus 1:1-3:17   Mark 1:29-2:12   Psalm 35:17-28   Proverbs 9:13-18

 

 

Comments

TWW’s Prime Directive – Care for the Victims — 110 Comments

  1. It will be interesting to see how all of the celebrity pastors respond to this case. Of course Al Mohler and Ligon Duncan did not respond to my Tweet. CJ and John MacArthur shared a podium at the Resolved conference. Mark Dever allowed him to take refuge in his church during his leave of absence. Are they going to issue a statement this time or play it safe by not saying anything until the chips fall? This will be very interesting to watch.

    Switching to a different church group – today, a reporter who interviewed Alex Grenier of Calvary Chapel Abuse blog told him that Calvary Chapel Visalia and Bob Grenier have indeed filed a lawsuit against him and others (defamation and case and desist). Alex has not yet been served. This case, too, involves spiritual abuse, sex abuse, etc, and will surely go viral as Calvary Chapel has over 1,000 congregations worldwide.

  2. Excellent, Deb! If only all church leaders had as much concern for victims as you and Dee do, along with the integrity and resolve to fight victimization and abuse in their churches.

  3. Intriguingly, in an account Jesus told about a righteous person who sided with a known and visible victim, it was NOT those reputed to have perfect doctrine … it was the Samaritan guy … the product of a religiously mixed-up upbringing. Sometimes those who know little truth but use it, show up those who use little of what truth they know.

    Some commenters on various blogs which have reported this story keep stressing that the defendants themselves did not *perpetrate* the sexual abuse. While that is correct, it does not counterbalance the reality that they may have *perpetuated* the impact by their actions, inactions, and faulty theology … and in fact amplified the destructive effects of the sexual assault.

    I have seen those same dynamics at work in adults who have been spiritually assailed repeatedly by a malignant minister who was intent on “winning,” and was also enabled by people who actively supported him or passively stood by and watched. It took months to years for the victims to recuperate and start moving forward spiritually. The situation — especially for the survivor — was tragic, but it was made worse by the system being so toxic.

    Victimization is always horrible, but revictimization masqueraded in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is utterly despicable.

    Thanks, Deb and Dee, for always being as the Samaritan to those wounded and in need of a compassionate heart, healing balm, and a temporary home …

  4. That AoR quote above seems to equate hurt with anger. Who were these ambassadors? Were they trained psychologists? That quote seems (as well as so callous) so clueless.

    When they report how the abused reacted, they seemed ignorant of the possibility that a physical response could accompany a painful memory. Instead, they try to link that response to a hidden emotion (bitterness, anger, etc.) rather than realize that the physical response is the body reliving a painful memory and gearing up automatically for a flight/fight reaction.

    Once a pastor told our church, if you do have to go to a reconciliation meeting, and the other party is bringing a supporter, you should match them with an equally supportive supporter. (I mean non-abuser reconciliation, no one should have to come into contact with her former abuser [especially a 3 year old!]). It makes me wonder if the AoRs were just on a witch hunt for more evidence, perhaps they were aware this case was brewing.

    This is just so sad and wrong.

  5. Val said: “That AoR quote above seems to equate hurt with anger. Who were these ambassadors? Were they trained psychologists? That quote seems (as well as so callous) so clueless.”

    Clueless & callous. That just about sums the AoR report up perfectly!

  6. I’ve never understood the mindset that if a person displays physical signs of anguish, that it somehow negates the truth of what they are saying.

    Because people who have been through a traumatizing event or series of events are always cool as cucumbers?

    Because Christians aren’t allowed to be angry, or display emotion? I suppose Jesus never got angry, and never showed emotion… right….

  7. Val: Ted Kober was a businessman, now President of AoR.

    Bruce Zagel is a minister and Ed Keinath is a minister.

    They are all trained by the Ken Sande ‘Peacemakers’ theory.
    It is not a concept which looks at victim/victimizer, it is more suited (if it is suited at all) for peer to peer conflict resolution.

    I thought about the AoR report when the lawsuit news came out also.
    They are so ill-equipped to assist people who have been through SGM.
    It’s a sin (missing the mark sin) AoR was used to even talk with victims.

    I appreciate you Dee and Deb, for your faithfulness in keeping victims front and centre, for doing careful research and for leading with compassion.

    Blog on!

  8. I saw this quote the other day on Facebook:

    “There is a difference between the church and an organization, and it’s demonstrated in how we treat people.”

    Isn’t that the truth?

  9. brad/futuristguy said:

    “Victimization is always horrible, but revictimization masqueraded in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is utterly despicable.”

    Yes, I should have mentioned that in the post.  I believe the victms who have brought this class action lawsuit were re-victimized by SGM leaders and the Ambassadors of Reconciliation.  That report was extremely harmful to those who were hurt.  AoR was a pawn in this chess game. 

  10. That quote at the top reminded me of someone who sees you get slapped in the face and then tells you that it’s your face’s fault for hurting

  11. As an ex-CLCer (20 years)I cannot even begin to express my feelings on all that has gone on “in the name of Christ”. Utter betrayal, heartbreak, disgust. I know one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit well and am awed by the courage and determination this young woman demonstrates. May justice be done.

  12. callous and clueless aren’t strong enough words to describe that top quote – it is heinously repugnant. Criticising victims of abuse for getting emotional when recounting the abuse? Really? I don’t know what those guys are ambassadors for, but it sure as hell ain’t for reconciliation.

  13. Some commenters on various blogs which have reported this story keep stressing that the defendants themselves did not *perpetrate* the sexual abuse. — Brad/FuturistGuy

    “Mistakes Were Made… (TM)”
    “It all depends on what the meaning of ‘is’ is…”

    Clueless & callous. That just about sums the AoR report up perfectly! — Searching

    To AoR, “Clueless & Callous” translates to Christianese as “Godly and Biblical.”

    I’ve never understood the mindset that if a person displays physical signs of anguish, that it somehow negates the truth of what they are saying.

    Because people who have been through a traumatizing event or series of events are always cool as cucumbers? — Searching

    As Judged by those who have NEVER gone through a traumatizing event or series of events (i.e. The Elect), YES. If they’re not “cool as cucumbers” (Christianese: “Secure in the LORD”), they’re not of The Elect. (Secret Sin, Demon Possession, Heretic, Apostate, bla bla bla…)

    That quote at the top reminded me of someone who sees you get slapped in the face and then tells you that it’s your face’s fault for hurting — Lynne T

    And justifies it with Long Prayers and Scripture(TM). Or Direct Private Revelation (“God Told Me…”).

  14. It is difficult to read articles like this one without wanting to go punch something. Why do we Christians, in the name of Christ, set out and do so much evil? As a chaplain and a pastor, I see the ugly side of "biblical obedience" on the human heart. And I also see how it repulses those who are not Christians. Hopefully as we join our voices in a swell of truth-telling and outrage, justice will prevail. In any case, God is bigger than this!!!!

  15. Dee and Deb

    Thanks so much for your efforts! We so need sites like TWW, SGM Survivors, SGM Refuge, etc. to shine a light into the dark corners of Christianity and advocate for the victims.

    As for the AoR report, it’s clear that the only thing they brought was a bucket of whitewash.

  16. I looked at the first few pages of the AoR report. It is obvious that they were working for SGM. The thing about reconciliation is that the abuser/offender must first repent. I see no repentance on SGM's part. Without that repentance, "reconciliation" will just lead to more abuse.

    I was raped when I was eight years old (over 50 years ago) in the back of the building where our church met. I long ago forgave my rapist but we can never be reconciled until he repents and believe you me, he has had plenty of opportunity. Forgiveness is about letting God be in charge and reconciliation about having a new, redeemed relationship. I was finally able to completely disassociate from my rapist after our parents died a few years ago. He doesn't know where I am but could find me through relatives if he wanted to do the Godly thing. And yes, I am still angry and hurt but I know I am not wrong.

    I hope these young women get justice. I also hope that others will join them and also get the justice they deserve.

  17. I do seriously hope AoR doesn’t expect anyone to take them seriously. How relevant are the emotions displayed displayed by an affected party? If they have been wronged shouldn’t they be angry? And how do their emotions affect the veracity of their testimony?

  18. The one thing that is not taken into account with the AoR report is they are reporting on how things are now, and they are much different that when all the above mentioned abuse situations happened.

    I am a 35 year member to Covenant Life Church – the first church which started the whole SGM movement. I want to start out by saying that our church is a much different church since Joshua Harris became our senior pastor. I will also say that as I look back over the 35 years, yes there was some heavy handedness and legalism, but I have also seen steady growth in these areas, and it is pretty much gone from Covenant Life.

    Another thing I have observed about people who left the church because of the heavy-handedness over the years is that they, in many cases, were people who saw the church and the pastor as the final authority instead of seeing God as the final authority. My husband and I see our church as a place to worship God, and an environment for our kids to learn about God. I don't necessarily agree with everything that is taught, and we do what we think is right for us and our family.

    Many of the churches within SGM have begun to seriously question the way they do things, and a number of churches have left SGM. Covenant Life is considering whether to stay or leave as well. There have been many mistakes made along the way by various pastors, but I have never believed that they did not not have our best interests at heart, even though the counsel given in specific situations was not always the best. As they learn and grow, things have changed dramatically. There is no church that does not have problems of some kind, and there are no pastors that are infallible. I have struggled with counsel given to me and how one of my children was treated when they didn't toe the Covenant Life line, but I have also see dramatic changes in how the church now handles these situations. It shows me that the leaders of Covenant Life are willing to listen to the congregation and then make changes where necessary.

  19. Hey Guys, The Christian “SCHOOL” where the NEW SGM church is being planted is called Christian Academy of Louisville, English Station Campus.

    They obviously have a strong policy about “protecting children” from predators and I know they would not protect any predators or condone such a thing.

    The Board chairman is Mark Lagestee who is Director of People Development at YUM! Brands. I have not been able to get an email on him yet.

    I think it would be great if he heard from believers concerned about the lawsuit and the SGM church plant in a “school” considering the history of SGM.

    The Superintendent of Christian Academy is Tim Greener who can be reached at tgreener@caschools.us

    Perhaps he can forward emails to the board chairman.

  20. The quote from AoR was carefully crafted, folks, to “marginalize” the victims. This is how it is done. AoR is another one that needs to be seen for what it is.

  21. Greetings, all: I go to CLC. What I would like to say is that there are two things that are horrifying: what Mahaney and others have done in the past and how their sin affects the GOOD people and pastors there. Not all of them are monsters.

    Personally, I think some of the pastors were misled by Mahaney. My father is mentally ill and emotionally abusive/neglectful. We were counseled by one of Mahaney's sons-in-law. A lot of the things he said like don't talk about it to your CG so that your dad's reputation is intact and other things like that were confusing and frustrating. I won't deny that. But I will say that he was a sweet man who was trying to help us in the ways he knew. My theory is that he moved with everyone else because he wanted to avoid trouble with his father-in-law. Heaven knows that Kentucky movement looks an awful lot like a cult.

    And there were other pastors that really DID help us. Folks like Joe Lee, Matt Maka, and Don DeVries. And Josh Harris, who is trying his darnedest to lead the church through these difficult times. I will gladly agree with you guys that there are a lot of jerks in SGM. But please don't group the good people in with them. There ARE SGM churches who have or are considering leaving the ministry, and they're trying to do the right thing.

  22. “I’ve never understood the mindset that if a person displays physical signs of anguish, that it somehow negates the truth of what they are saying.”

    Searching, It is a cruel tactic used to marginalize the truth that victims have to tell. If you read around the “Christian” blogs you will see this tactics used all the time toward women in very subtle ways. A woman can something almost exactly as a male poster but the word “emotional” will be used in a response to her.

    It is so normal and accepted now to marginalize victims, we hardly notice it anymore. It is cruel and devestating. Think of it. Telling a rape victim she is just bitter and unforgiving when there has been NO real repentance. It is not of Christ. My constant prayer is that the pew sitters will come to know the REAL Christ so they will spot the wolves and hirlings right away and RUN.

  23. Deb#2 – As a chaplain and a pastor, I see the ugly side of “biblical obedience” on the human heart. And I also see how it repulses those who are not Christians.

    Are you suggesting that there is a good side to “biblical obedience?” I am hoping that you put quotations around it to make it mean the gross misinterpretation and mistranslation of passages such as Hebrews 13 that the authoritarians use to justify having subjects under their thumbs.

  24. " If there not "cool as cucumbers," They're not of the Elect." This about sums it up. If you're angry about injustice that has been done to you, then you're in sin because it's not righteous anger. If you are "cool as a cucumber", then you are being Godly.

  25. So, I just read Brent Detwiler's opening remarks before he posted the lawsuit. Does it bug anyone besides me that he gives 'directions' on how we the reader should not presume guilt or innocence or truth or false claims? Thereby casting more marginalization toward the victims. You can take a man out of SGM, but can you really take SGM out of the man? No offense meant towards post SGMers here, you could certainly answer that question for me though. I know it took years to get the IFB out of me.

  26. MBS

    Almost all of us on this blog, at one time or another, were betrayed by those who claim that they had our best interests at heart. Those of us who have gone through this time emerge far smarter. We now know that  Jesus champions us and loves us truly. All those who like being in charge are suspect. And, we can now be free-out from under the thumb of those who pretend that they are just a little bit better than the rest of us so they get to tell us our particular sins. Now, they get to deny their sins in the public eye. Ought to be interesting.

    They now have to answer to a woman! (The attorney).

  27. Put Dink: “”SGM’s: Flip, Fly  & Flop?””

    HowDee YaAll,

    Al Mohler and others have indeed circled da wagons for da Ceege for far too long. That irritation has begun to grate upon any type of rational sensibility. 

    What?

    An important question has been asked by our consummate host : Are those certain individuals in the SBC demonstrating that “big names” are far more important to ‘these leaders’ than “the little children and their families”?

    hmmm…

    C.J. wherze ya gonna run now? (Put your widdle head between your leggs n’ kiss you bum goodbye?) Al baby won’t save youze now…he has flames up his tailpipe, cough, cough!

    Flip, fly and  flop,
    I dont care if I drop,
    Flip, fly and  flop,
    I dont care if I drop,
    Dontcha ever leave me,
    Al, Baby, don’t ever say goodbye!

    Has youze unrighteousness finally reached a tipping point?

    huh?

    Who does “the barbie” toll for now C.J.?

    …It tolls for thee.

    *
    Nothing, No! nothing compares to the promise I have in youze Jesus!

    Hurray!

    (grin)

    hahahahahahaha

    S“㋡”py

  28. Pam

    The AoR gets their income from the church leadership. So, being fallen men themselves, who do you think they are concerned about?

  29. It’s as if these “pastors” came upon an adult molesting a toddler, then ignored the toddler and said to the molester, “Are you okay? How can I help you?”

    This is beyond “ignorant,” “repugnant,” “disgusting,” etc. It is evil. Let’s call it what it is.

    Christians are capable of evil. Even so, we can’t assume that all of these enablers are Christians.

  30. I’ve never been a part of an SGM church, but I have some friends who were. They were accused of being in sin for not following the letter of SGM’s law regarding dating (oops, courting), even though they weren’t engaging in any behavior that Scripture would consider sinful. They eventually left that church, got married elsewhere, and now serve the Lord in another church that eschews SGM’s authoritarianism and legalism.

    Now compare that with SGM’s apparent willingness to look the other way and cover up behavior which is not only sinful and despicable but criminal. How sad! I wish I could say more, but words fail me.

  31. HUG

    So, if i know that a terrorist is going to bomb a building and I say nothing, am I responsible? The “I didn’t do it” defense was tried, and failed, in the Sandusky mess.

  32. I listened to the link (given on the other thread, I think) to the radio show where the attorney was interviewed. I think the Sovereign Grace Monsters have reason to be afraid, very afraid. The woman is formidable.

    The only good thing to come out of the whole awful Sandusky mess is that it has woken up Americans to institutionalized child abuse even more. People are now in “zero tolerance” mode as never before, and SGMonsters should be quaking in their boots.

  33. Wisdomchaser

    I am so sorry for the pain that you have born in your life. I am praying for you as I write this. One day, justice will be served.

    Your anger, hurt and sadness is warranted. Thank you for sharing this with us. It is vital that churches and supposed “reconcilaition” groups understand the long term affects from such abuse.  Your testimony  and voice is important. 

  34. Dr Fundystan Proctologist (fascinating name, BTW)

    AoR  was discredited by their report. As all of this becomes public knowlege, they will find many more who will be disabused of the notion that they are objective. Shame on them.

  35. Lauren, with all due respect to the non evil people at your church, just the fact that on this forum subject today you feel the need to defend them is just the type of SGM programming I am talking about.
    When my church makes mistakes that hurt people, I don’t defend the innocent people, I tell them how sorry I am that my church, the church that I choose to fellowship with hurt you, I apologize as if I am the guilty one. My heart breaks for the abused by my church as if I am the guilty one. I don’t understand the unbrokeness of the good people in SGM toward the wounded.

  36. Lauren

    The lawsuit states the names of those who are of concern to these victims. That is our focus. However, I would ask you to consider something.

    How many good people in your church sat quietly by when the AoR “blame the victim” report was made public?

    How many good people kept their mouths shut when the abuse reports were made through the years ?

    How many good people refused to read the blogs and stayed ignorant on purpose?

    Many people in churches sat quietly by in WW2 Germany since their churches and their pastors were not the ones involved with sending the Jews to the concentration camps. So, the question is, what constitues “good”people? Evil is allowed to prevail when good people do nothing.

  37. Patti

    Biblical obedience to the Law of Grace with its base in Love is the most freeing of all obedience. It is those who apply “biblical mandates” in order to make up a whole new Pharisaical sect that are the ones we are targeting. We are Free!

  38. Patti

    Brent was part of the sytem for a very long time. It reminds me a bit of my dog, Petunia, who had been severely abused. Every once in a while we get a reminder of her past life. It is hunting season in oru area. We back up to woods.  For the first time in a long time I heard gunshots from deep within the woods. My sweet Petunia started to cry and shake. It si something from her past, I am sure. You can take the man out of the authoritarina structure but I bet it is difficult to take the authoriatrian structure out of the man.

  39. Sopy

    The CJ apologists have a most difficult problem ahead. One must be very careful not to get tarred with the child sex abuse cover-up accusations. They know that perception is everything. This ought to be interesting!

  40. JeffB

    We did a story about a local pastor who spent time supporting a guy who was into wretched child pornography. Not once did I hear an expression of concern for the little ones who were abused in these pictures. All we heard about is how this man “became a Christian” after he was caught.  

  41. singleman

    The only ones that need to obey the SGM mores are the pew sitters. The pastors appear to get a pass.

  42. ” If there not “cool as cucumbers,” They’re not of the Elect.” This about sums it up. If you’re angry about injustice that has been done to you, then you’re in sin because it’s not righteous anger. If you are “cool as a cucumber”, then you are being Godly.

    Well, they must not think God is very “godly”, because scripture teaches that He gets angry at sin when one of His little ones is treated badly.

  43. We did a story about a local pastor who spent time supporting a guy who was into wretched child pornography. Not once did I hear an expression of concern for the little ones who were abused in these pictures. All we heard about is how this man “became a Christian” after he was caught. — Dee

    Spectacular Conversion Testimony (from Really JUICY sin) trumps all else?

  44. The only ones that need to obey the SGM mores are the pew sitters. The pastors appear to get a pass. — Dee

    “ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL, BUT SOME ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.”
    — G.Orwell, Animal Farm

    ” If there not “cool as cucumbers,” They’re not of the Elect.” This about sums it up. If you’re angry about injustice that has been done to you, then you’re in sin because it’s not righteous anger. If you are “cool as a cucumber”, then you are being Godly. — Arce

    Godly Indifference?
    Godly Detachment?
    Godly Intellectualizing?

    Reminds me too much of some of the real Intellectual types in my college and gamer days who were so “cool as a cucumber” they could speak of nuclear war as “Only a Three-Point-Seven Gigadeath Situation. Insignificant.”

  45. SGM: Is Dis A Steamroller Baby? Gonna Roll All ov’r U?

    HowDee YaAll,

    Is dis here happen,  USSGM’s Chernobil?

    (budda bing! buda boom!, big buda boom, huh?)

    Gee Wiz, theyz sure gonna needz lotz n’ lotz of concrete!

    Momma’s right. You should a said youze sorry…

    nowz da Ahhwee’s …well, dayz are a fester’in some’thin bad…

    back it up right dar? Varoooooooooooooom, KerChunk! 

    Glug…

    glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug,glug…

    hmmm…

    S“㋡”py

  46. wisdomchaser: your post made me cry. I am so sorry that this happened to you, & I hope you now have all the help you could possibly need.
    How can any of us let such horror be covered over? These are hurt children, for the love of God.

  47. Dee,

    Well, how would you feel if someone you knew and trusted was accused with doing something bad? You’d feel shock and disbelief. I sure didn’t know about the nasty stuff until it arose, and I’m sure lots of others didn’t, either.

    I’m not defending any of the bad people who committed those deeds, but I’m not going to take their blame. Of COURSE they should be prosecuted. Of COURSE they should be punished.

    I’m talking about the people who didn’t do anything wrong. They shouldn’t lose their reputation and be socially punished for the rotten things Mahaney and others did. They shouldn’t suffer guilt by association, because they were just as deceived.

  48. wisdomchaser,

    I am so sad for what you experienced as a young child. Pedophilia is rampant, and we must do everything humanly possible to eliminate it, particularly in our churches.

    Please know that I will be keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.

  49. Leila: “I think the Sovereign Grace Monsters have reason to be afraid, very afraid. The woman is formidable.”

    This woman is no more formidable than you or I or anyone who posts on this thread. What she is is gutsy, and understands that the Law is formidable. The Law is the great leveler. The law is not a respecter of persons. It strips away the perks of privilege and power. And that is what may give the “monsters” reason to be afarid.

  50. Lauren,

    I understand what you are saying.

    What I find disconcerting about SGM is that the congregants have absolutely no say in much of anything that goes on in their churches – the pastors are 'in charge' as are Mahaney and his 'board'.

    Polity has contributed to this long-standing problem, and I highly doubt that is going to change.  The question is – will you stay or will you find another congregation where  members have more say in what goes on at church?

  51. Lauren –

    They SHOULD, however, be more concerned about the victims who have suffered silently and sometimes alone than they are with their own personal reputations.

    Anyone in an SGM church will be affected by this. They should also be asking themselves, their pastors, and other members A LOT of questions. They should KNOW what is going on and not just be sitting in chairs trusting their pastors (mere men mind you) to take care of everything.

    They may have been taught this, but no where in scripture are believers told to let pastors "take care of everything".

  52. Patti,
    I was troubled by Brent’s “directions” as well, with both meanings of that term. 1: He posted the “directions” to the defendants’ homes and FORMER homes. No care for possible victims, if vigilantes were to presume sex offenders resided there. 2: He still takes an “aPostle” position toward SGM, as if the *system* will work just fine if/when CJ repents. I believe Brent designed much of the *system*. There’s not much concern for the victims, the pew-sitters, or the ordinary pastors compared to his concerns for degifted aPostles like himself and Larry. The story of “Friendly Fire”, the founding pastor of Solid Rock Church, who got demoted to church janitor by Brent, is illustative. When Brent posted his documents, he reaffirmed his love for CJ and SGM. I emailed him, imploring him to love CJ and love the Church, but let SGM go to hell. So far, he can’t let SGM go there.
    I was thinking about one of the perps in this case late last night– the steply ug-father of Robin Roe. I did some googling and found a nice newspaper interview of him (on another subject) from May of this year. Seems like he’s totally gotten on well with his life and new family, and, for all I know, may have totally repented. As of May, he and new family were still happy pew-sitters at CLC, unlike old family, which got shunned. One creepy line, in context, was when he told the interviewer that as children become teenagers, it’s more difficult to have “family time.” It’s ironic that the perfect pastors who previously propped up the perp will probably presently Pay the Piper. (Just HAD to bring that name in, for Jimmy!) 🙂

  53. HUG

    The comment of the day (so far) “Spectacular Conversion Testimony (from Really JUICY sin) trumps all else?”

  54. HUG

    You have topped your last comment.  “Reminds me too much of some of the real Intellectual types in my college and gamer days who were so “cool as a cucumber” they could speak of nuclear war as “Only a Three-Point-Seven Gigadeath Situation. Insignificant.” Thanks for the laugh.

  55. Lauren

    I understand the point you are making. But, I am trying to figure out how they did not know. As you know, we are not affiliated with SGM nor have we ever been. Yet, as of 4years ago, we were hearing of the troubles at SGM.  How does an SGMer avoid all knowledge of these issues?  Is it a culture of silence?

  56. Brad

    I am watching for any response to this from any one in TGC, SBTS, Mohler, etc. Oh, by the way, i am posting a link to a wonderful video of Al Mohler praising CJ Mahaney earlier this year after last summer’s scandal. He surely knew of the complaints of child sex abuse coverup so I do not get it.

  57. Lauren,

    “They shouldn’t suffer guilt by association, because they were just as deceived.”

    I don’t buy it. Everyone who sat in those abusive churches knowing there were abuse reports and cover-ups and a “reconciliation” process is guilty.

    I have friends from State College, PA who are upset because “Joe Paterno was a good man who was punished for something Jerry Sandusky did.” No, Paterno was man who was guilty for doing nothing to stop Sandusky’s horrific crimes against young boys. Abuse victims often feel the most betrayed by those who knew and continued to let it happen.

    Anyone who knows there were abuse allegations and attempts to cover up and “reconcile” the abusers with their victims is complicit. Those who’ve stood up to pastors and leaders who were covering up the abuse did the right thing. Those who didn’t are enablers at best.

  58. HUG, I was quoting an earlier comment by another. I added my point below that statement. It was a good comment, but it was not mine.

  59. Wisdom, 

    Hey,

    I wrote this for you today:  (sadface) I’ze so sorry for u.

    “Wisdom chas’in freedom…”

    I was raped when I was eight years old,
    (wasn’t no man lov’in me,)
    in the back of the building where our church met,
    (ain’t nobudy lov’in me now,)
    forget about forgiveness, opportunity done come and gone.

    ain’t nothing in that stony heart of his now,
    he doesn’t know where I am but could find me,
    but he couldn’t care less,
    no one calls it rape now a days, they call it some’thin else.

    they speak of justice, when they leave me lying here,
    they speak of justice, when they leave me lying here hurt’in, yeah,
    I’m gonna completely disassociate myself from this here maddness, n’ try and live another day.

    yes I know, yes I know,
    yes, I am still angry, (anger still got a hold of me,)
    hurt’in so damn bad inside (am I wrong,  am I not wrong?)

    Forgiveness is about letting God inside, 
    mak’in things brand new brand new, 
    I am far from that baby,
    but each passing day brings closer, 
    the hope I lost.

     ___
    Wisdom Chas’in Freedom… (c) S㋡py productions ltd.; 2012

  60. “I’m talking about the people who didn’t do anything wrong. They shouldn’t lose their reputation and be socially punished for the rotten things Mahaney and others did. They shouldn’t suffer guilt by association, because they were just as deceived.”

    Lauren, either they were deceived by a “closed system” which said it was a sin for victims to speak of perverts in their midst OR, they enabled evil to flourish.

    If the former, they have no one to blame but themselves for going along with a closed system. And what I mean by that is always trusting leaders so one never asks uncomfortable questions and the whole environment is fake happiness. I know churches where the pew sitter would think it a sin to ask to see a detailed budget.these people really believe that would be a sin and none of their business because they have been taught to trust leaders explicitely. It is not a healthy environment. People are not more godly because they trusted and followed CJ and company. All they did was enable some horrible behavior to our most vulnerable.

  61. TedS

    You must admit that it is rather amusing to think that CJ will actually have to answer the cross examination of a woman!

  62. Happymom

    Good to see you! TWW is willing to assist in this action in anyway that we can. We have hoped for something like this for years. Please know that I think of you often and pray for you.

  63. Lauren, I don’t know what the congregation knew/ didn’t know, but I would reflect on a few things that may be perfect cover for pedophiles in any church setting. First, peds look for authoritarian structures to fit into – a Chicago cop once said: “people are surprised when a paediatrician, priest, or principal are caught, I’m not, pedophiles look for clear, unquestioned access to children – smart ones become doctors or teachers, others become janitor’s at a school.”

    So all churches should be aware that pedophiles look for opportunities to have access to kids. Next, what happened if someone (a parent, etc.) was uncomfortable with a leader? Was their a strict process to go through? Did the people feel free to go to the leadership and raise concerns?

    Listen to the stories of the abused. Once abuse was reported and caught the church seemed to assume a lot of authority over the situation. If anyone was to tell me who to talk/not talk to about a serious issue (apart from legal council) it would put up a million red flags. Why not talk? Is protecting a reputation more important than protecting an innocent child? Ever? Do people feel free in your church to raise concerns? Question what is going on? Or, is it labelled gossip and quickly shut down?

    You know, we are all grown-ups and can decide for ourselves if something is gossip or not. A church should not be controlling conversation topics – ever. A church that seems more concerned with “doing right” for the leadership – not gossiping, submitting to authority – than being honest and realizing not everyone is going to submit to everything the leadership wants, is aware that gossip will always happen, but it especially happens if people feel they aren’t able to go to the leadership, is not a healthy place, it is an authoritarian place. Abusers love authoritarian places, so all member (who, of course, aren’t all abusers) should be on high alert in more authoritarian churches.

    When a member struggled, did the congregation fell free to go to them and comfort them and listen to them? Or, did the congregation try/feel they had to stand back and “let the leaders do it”?

    What is so heartbreaking to read is that when the leaders told the families not to talk, the families obeyed. It seems like these are churches seeped in top-down control. We are ALL the priesthood of believers. No one has more authority in the Kingdom as a whole than anyone else, sure certain church positions carry more authority, but we are all equal in calling out a grievance. It is very telling when adults, who have had a child abused, think they need to follow the rules of a few leaders. Especially when the parents saw the same abuser back with other children.

    Does your church value reputations more than truth? If someone were to tell me not to tell anyone about someone’s disability (in my own family) because of them losing face, I’d call the leadership on that. If no member of the congregation can be trusted with that sort of info, that is not a real church. It seems funny to me that “reputation” was the word that was needed to keep people in line in your denomination. That alone is a red flag. Jesus isn’t all that concerned with anyone’s worldly reputation, why is your church? Bad teaching right there.

    These are all signs of a secretive corporation, not a body of equal believers. It seems these churches are adept at making their congregations feel powerless and needy (of direction). If a pastor is not feeding his sheep (helping you grow stronger and wiser) over the years, and only maintains the status quo, he isn’t a true pastor. A person in a church for 20 years should feel free to question teachings, stand up for what they right and wrong and feel confident in their ability to know what Jesus is teaching and be free to use those teachings to counter any false ideals or smash any ego idols they see a leader developing. Being patient is good, I could use more of that, but silence in the face of evil is a failure on the part of a congregation.

  64. Happymom,

    Ditto on what Dee wrote.  I'm looking forward to her synopsis of the lawsuit in today's post, among other points she will make.

    Blessings to you and your family!

  65. Rant Alert...

    I have been thinking about Laura's comment. In recent weeks the GirlTalkers have been pronouncing from on high (err via their blog) how we should conduct ourselves online. We are not to be idle, gossip, yada yada yada

    I can only imagine how Carolyn Mahaney controlled the minds of the women at CLC. She probably routinely instructed them to stay away from those 'gossip blogs' about SGM and clean out those junk drawers and keep those kitchen countertops clutter free!

    Yes, I'm starting to get the picture of why women (in particular) at SGM churches were clueless about these serious problems.

  66. You have topped your last comment. ”Reminds me too much of some of the real Intellectual types in my college and gamer days who were so “cool as a cucumber” they could speak of nuclear war as “Only a Three-Point-Seven Gigadeath Situation. Insignificant.” Thanks for the laugh. — Dee

    I ran into one or two guys like that for real, Dee.

    And I write this as someone whose reaction to extreme stress is to “numb out” completely. (When my mother died in 1975, my emotions just shut down completely and came back gradually over the next few months. Same thing happened when my father died in 1994.)

  67. I actually shuddered when I read the above post from the current member of CLC. I am a former member of SGC Chesapeake, which has had its share of problems. I trusted these pastors, my Care Group leaders, the members of my Care Group. I thought they were my lifelong friends. Heaven knows, they made it seem that way. When I began to feel uncomfortable that only PDI books were available or recommended to read and other things just didn’t “sit right” within me, I went to my friends, to the CG leaders. Not only did they have no answers for me, I was shunned when we decided to leave. I saw these “close friends” at Walmart or the gas station or the movies and they literally walked right past me, looking the other way. SURELY you have participated in this horror, having been there for so long or you have seen others participate. It is impossible not to have either seen it firsthand or experienced it yourselves. But beyond that, to come on here and defend your church and its denomination when it so clearly violates the Gospel makes me very uncomfortable. I think something must have struck a nerve to cause you to feel you needed to defend your church. But what? We are only telling the truth here. It’s an ugly, inconvenient truth. The only real answer or comment of any merit is “I am so, so sorry.” This happened on your watch, so to speak. To defend it or even to defend the good people who weren’t involved, feels so wrong to me. I do understand the anguish of those still attending these churches. My wish is that they will walk in true freedom somewhere else. I apologize if my comment is too provocative or angry. I am not angry anymore, actually. But I am indignant on behalf of those who were harmed. What I experienced was painful enough and lasted years. I watched my children ache for the friends who no longer returned their phone calls, whose parents refused fellowship with us. But our story was nothing compared to these. 🙁

  68. Anon 1 on Fri Oct 19, 2012 at 02:44 PM suggested there was a “closed system” at SGM.

    One of my favorite easy-read books on systems thinking is *Stepping in Wholes: Introduction to Complex Systems*. I thought it might be intriguing to see how co-authors Jim Ollhoff and Michael Walcheski define open/closed systems, and sure enough, it’s instructive for what apparently happened/happens at SGM. Here are three sections of quotes with some insightful analogies, and then a few comments from me afterwards:

    “Boundaries are the edge of systems. They mark where one system stops and another begins. […]

    “When a system is open, the boundaries are permeable. Information and stimuli flow into the system, and information and stimuli flow out of the system. … Your body is an open system. You take in food, air, and water from the surrounding environment. You are influenced and affected by the experiences, the relationships, and the environments around you. You are influenced by the emotional systems around you. […]

    “A close system shares nothing with its environment. It is self-contained. The boundaries of the closed system are extremely rigid–nothing goes in and nothing goes out. Usually, closed systems cannot survive indefinitely. Their resources get used up. … Some family systems build emotional walls around the family to ‘protect’ the members from outside influences. Sometimes, families that are in grief or in crisis become temporarily closed. This closure helps the family to emotionally cope. Families that are *permanently* closed run the risk of becoming self-contained, deteriorative, and finally implosive … Closed systems are self-contained. They have pre-determined actions. They run until they run down.” (pages 24-25)

    http://www.amazon.com/Stepping-Wholes-Introduction-Complex-Systems/dp/0971930406/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350674791&sr=8-1&keywords=stepping+in+wholes

    Thoughts:

    NO RIGHT TO A SOLID BOUNDARY. A church, non-profit, or association/denomination is not a closed-system entity unto itself. It co-exists within the social system that includes the legal system, social services, etc. Just because a group acts as if it is self-subsistent and all-containing does not mean that it is. Christian entities do not have the right to act only in their own bubble – or even act first within their own boundaries – and ignore the responsibilities to act that are part of the larger systems it exists within.

    ENTROPY AND IMPLOSION. As with a wind-up wristwatch, when the spring has sprung, the watch stops (this is another example that Ollhoff and Walcheski use) – and this happens to organizational systems. This principle of loss of energy over time means that the systems tend toward running down, rest, or death, and the only way to overcome entropy is through injection of other sources of energy to “wind it back up again.”

    SGM has already lost perhaps 20% of its church membership (earlier reports said it had about 100 churches, current reports put that at about 80), in part due to issues of authoritarian leadership and lack of trust. So, that is sucking resources out of the system more quickly than just the usual winding down due to entropy. And this lawsuit’s exposure of what may have been hidden in secrecy and through apparent directives of “don’t report, we’ll deal with it internally, don’t tell” may make it so new organizations don’t join up with SGM now. [P.S. Bloggers did not give SGM their bad reputation, only revealed what they already saw there in the system.]

    It’s kind of like when you suck the last dribbles out of a Juicy-Juice box with a straw, it creates a vacuum that wants to draw in air – but it can’t if you cover the hole again. And it appears that SGM’s Juicy-Juice box will be plugged up by their past actions and inactions. Implosion may be imminent.

    FAMILY SYSTEMS. I found the most difficult thing from the quotes to deal with is what the authors said about family systems and grief. I wish that’s what could have happened for the victims and their families … a temporarily closed system could have led to healing and hope far far sooner. Instead, these families seemed revictimized by spiritual abuse in their church family, on top of the already-experienced horrors of sexual abuse. So, they ended up expending huge amounts of energy in going up against their church’s closed, *emotionally and spiritually toxic* system that apparently was more self-protective of the institution than compassionate toward the victims. What an emotional drain for them to deal with, on top of what they and their children were already trying to cope with!

    This lawsuit seems a way for these families to escape the SGM bubble and dogma that have enclosed them for over a decade. May it bring these victims and their families freedom, revitalization, and peace …

  69. Val,

    Excellent comment and welcome to TWW!   I know of a church in which a pedophile abused some young teenage boys.  The congregation was told that the pastors were taking care of the victims and that their identities were not being revealed out of ‘respect’ and ‘privacy’.  That’s the LAST THING the victims needed.  Several years went by and a few congregants discovered that  the victims were not being cared for.   This seems to be a strategy of of some play book. 

  70. “You must admit that it is rather amusing to think that CJ will actually have to answer the cross examination of a woman!”

    Oh the irony!
    Can you just hear Dr. Smith from “Lost in Space” fame?
    “Oh, the pain. The pain.”

    But in all seriousness though, none of this a a laughing matter. When I think of everything that is alleged, I am brought to weeping. This is so horrible. The name of Christ trampled underfoot before the heathen. So sad.

  71. This isn’t true: “Another thing I have observed about people who left the church because of the heavy-handedness over the years is that they, in many cases, were people who saw the church and the pastor as the final authority instead of seeing God as the final authority.”

  72. Lauren, I don’t know what the congregation knew/ didn’t know, but I would reflect on a few things that may be perfect cover for pedophiles in any church setting. First, peds look for authoritarian structures to fit into – a Chicago cop once said: “people are surprised when a paediatrician, priest, or principal are caught, I’m not, pedophiles look for clear, unquestioned access to children – smart ones become doctors or teachers, others become janitor’s at a school.” — Val

    This goes double if the “clear, unquestioned access” also comes with a position of Authority. Authority/Power to stop anyone from inquiring too closely. Authority/Power to ensure more credibility than the victim. Authority/Power to use it on the victim to ensure compliance and silence. Authority/Power to make others keep the victim in line and stay in line themselves. Victim’s Word against His, when He has cultivated Respectability and made contacts and/or is just Too Important for something (a la Sandusky & Paterno) for the truth to come out.

    So all churches should be aware that pedophiles look for opportunities to have access to kids. Next, what happened if someone (a parent, etc.) was uncomfortable with a leader? Was their a strict process to go through? Did the people feel free to go to the leadership and raise concerns? — Val

    Something else is that SUCCESSFUL pedos are masters at camouflaging what they are. (If they weren’t, they would have been caught long ago.) They not only “groom” the victim, they “groom” adult third parties to take their side against the victim. Often only the victim sees the pedo as he really is, and “Nobody Will Ever Believe You” because of the third-party grooming that has been taking place.

    (I have no experience with pedos per se, but growing up I had a ringside seat to an undiagnosed case of NPD/BPD and a lot of the camouflage and manipulation dynamics are the same.)

  73. Freedom Fighter – I didn’t go to SGM, but I can sure relate to the shunning. It’s horrible – – – and especially hard to watch your kids suffer this ridiculous behavior. There is nothing Christ-like about it. You are not alone.

  74. @ HUG,
    “…And justifies it with Long Prayers and Scripture(TM)…”

    Indeed it does. The time Jesus himself mentioned long prayer was when the religious elite were forclosing on widows’ houses. The writer of Ecclesiastes also had something to say about fool’s voices and their many words in the House of the Almighty.

  75. I can only wonder what the SGM leadership will do in court to try and avoid a ‘guilty’ sentence. I predict that their strategy will go something like this:

    1) Deny everything until they’re blue in the face.
    2) Fabricate or exaggerate some counter-evidence to ‘prove’ that they take care of child victims and prosecute abusers.
    3) Call into question the motives of the plaintiffs (it’s that old ‘they’re bitter and trying to cause division’ excuse).

    Claiming that the plaintiffs’ accounts are isolated incidents won’t work for them because whether they’re isolated or not, it’s those cases that are the grounds for prosecution.

    Of course the fact that they’ll be innocent until proven guilty means that the plaintiffs need some firepower to push this through. Hopefully, prayerfully, more victims will speak up until there are so many that C.J. and his cronies can’t defend themselves any longer.

    May the God of justice prevail. Praise Him for siding with the oppressed!

  76. Anne

    Child sexual abuse is not well received by most people. With the history of churches in this matter, juries are not terribly sympathetic to pastors/priests/football coaches these days. CJ may be popular in his little rowboat of churches, but he doesn't rise to the level of the Sandusky debacle in the real world. Look at what happened to all of those associated, yet were not the pedophile, with that incident. 

  77. Freedom Fighter

    Your story of pain serves to give credence to this situation. It matters. By the way, i have found that many people who used to be associated with SGM often apologize for their feelings. Never, ever forget that Jesus cried and was angry. As for provocative-calling the Pharisees white washed tombs might be considered rather inciting.

  78. I just found this site and the posts today. The article by Deb and Dee and your comments are amazing and right on. This evil has filled many of our churches and it is through all of our denominations. God hates this sin and if any of our church leaders are in doubt all they have to do is read what Jesus said in Luke 17:2 and Matt 18: 1-14. When it comes to dealing with abuse most of our church leaders follow man’s advice such as their lawyers telling them not to talk to the victims or to admit guilt! Think about that for a minute….if you follow that advice then it ‘negates’ everything that God says about helping the oppressed and what does it do for confession and repentance? I pastor a church in the Corning, NY area and my wife, Faith, and I have a ministry that deals with sexual abuse. http://speakingtruthinlove.org

    Dale Ingraham

  79. Dale,

    Welcome to TWW!  It is wonderful to hear from a pastor who “gets it”.  So many of these guys are in cahoots with each other.  The pulpit power grab is astounding!  I pray that those who are slumbering in the pews will wake up soon. 

  80. “Black As Night?”

    HowDee YaAll,

    Us, and them?
    after all they are only ordinary men…

    Me, and you?
    God only knows it’s not what we would choose to do.

    Pay the price for their “humility”?

    hmmm…

    Who is laughing now?

    “…stupid fat “hobbits”, theyz ruins zit!”

    (grin)

    hahahahahahaha

    S“㋡”py

  81. Dee and Deb: Dale absolutely does get it. He connected with me after my lawsuit and gave me great support vie e-mail. He really is a wonderful supporter of those who have suffered abuse.

  82. “…And justifies it with Long Prayers and Scripture(TM)…”

    Indeed it does. The time Jesus himself mentioned long prayer was when the religious elite were forclosing on widows’ houses. — Muff Potter

    That’s why I used that imagery. Apparently this wandering Rabbi named Jesus wasn’t “cool as a cucumber” about it.

  83. “… SUCCESSFUL pedos are masters at camouflaging what they are. … They not only “groom” the victim, they “groom” adult third parties to take their side against the victim. Often only the victim sees the pedo as he really is, and “Nobody Will Ever Believe You” because of the third-party grooming that has been taking place.” — HUG

    Spot on, HUG. However, when the groomed third parties finally do see the pedo for what he truly is, but willfully choose to ignore or cover up the abuse he perpetrates, they become accomplices to his crimes. Just ask the Catholic Church, Penn State and the Boy Scouts.

  84. And those third party accomplices should be charged, tried and convicted of the crimes they commit. In the SGM case, that appears to include interference with the administration of justice, in many jurisdictions a felony.

  85. “I’ve never understood the mindset that if a person displays physical signs of anguish, that it somehow negates the truth of what they are saying.” – Searching

    I believe it’s a primitive and carnal way of asserting dominance. When humans live according to the flesh, rather than the spirit, we effectively revert to living under the curse – “dust you are, and to dust you will return”. This, surely, reduces us to little more than sophisticated animals. Certainly, there’s abundant evidence to show that humans are strongly wired to follow authority. In other words, most people seek the reassurance that comes from believing they’re under the “covering and protection” (and I use the quasi-theological term deliberately) of a strong person who gives the appearance of being in control and of taking responsibility on our behalf. (Consider, for instance, the Milgram Experiment.)

    Among many social animal species, the males (rarely the females – make of that what you will) compete for dominance through display. The individual who loses such a confrontation is then consigned to a lower place in the group without the winner risking real harm in a physical confrontation (which might cause the group to lose a strong individual). Among humans, showing certain kinds of emotion – particularly emotions that evidence pain – shows a certain lack of power. If you appear hurt, you appear weak, and you lose. Most people will stand by and watch such a confrontation, waiting to see who “wins”. They will then side with the “winner” because that presents their best hope of a settled and quiet life, without the stress of change and unpredictability.

    Dominant leaders, by very nature, are good at appearing strong and self-assured. They create an impression of mastery and self-confidence that inexperienced christians often confuse with “the anointing”. (Bearing in mind that “many years’ experience” is sometimes only one year’s experience, repeated many times.) If they want to stay dominant, they’ll endeavour to control the field of play and set the rules of engagement to their own advantage. Hence, they create face-to-face interactions, often with themselves surrounded by loyal henchmen and the victims isolated and alone, which play to their strengths but to their critics’ weaknesses. Naturally, the dominant leader generally “wins” these unequal fights. And having done so, he naturally demonises and/or infantilises the “losers”.

    (It is both sobering and disturbing to note that, whereas the Lord heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds, authoritarian leaders in churches these days use “wounded people” as a pejorative term.)

  86. (It is both sobering and disturbing to note that, whereas the Lord heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds, authoritarian leaders in churches these days use “wounded people” as a pejorative term.) -Nick Bulbeck

    Yes, because God only uses the Perfect People, the Strong, the Mighty.

    1 Corinthians 1:27-29 Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful. God chose things despised by the world, things counted as nothing at all, and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important. As a result, no one can ever boast in the presence of God.

  87. Re: People who left SGM. I left many years ago and my eyes were TOTALLY open to the authoritarian structure there, and my eyes were fixed on the Lord instead of the pastors. That’s why I left, because I knew the pastors, and especially C.J., were no the be-all and end-all of my faith.

    All of this makes me so sad and ill.

  88. Yes, because God only uses the Perfect People, the Strong, the Mighty. — Searching

    The Football Quarterbacks, the Varsity Cheerleaders, the “Debbies” and “Soshes”.

    (I remember hearing about one high school evangelistic group that actually went for all the above Alpha Males and Females and nobody else, figuring (a) trickle-down effect and (b) God Hates Losers. I was the Omega Male of my high school, and the scars are still there.)

  89. Spot on, HUG. However, when the groomed third parties finally do see the pedo for what he truly is, but willfully choose to ignore or cover up the abuse he perpetrates, they become accomplices to his crimes. — Jenny

    That’s what the third-party grooming is for. To get all the third parties on the side of the pedo if anything goes south.

  90. After my wife experienced some severe abuse (verbal, emotional, spiritual) at our old Calvinista church, I got fed up and tore into the young pastor and his young elders. Luckily, our small group was tremendously supportive and helped us meet with the pastor and elders and the leadership eventually, after much stubbornness, anger, and defensiveness, finally realized they royally screwed up.

    What happened next was frightening, maybe more so than the actual abuse. They apologized (even showed tears!) for not taking care of us. When said that we would forgive the wrongdoing, but wanted to pursue the issue with them so that we could make sure it doesn’t happen again (to us or anyone else). We suggested a series of meetings with the pastor and elders in which we break down what happened, why it happened, and steps that can be taken to prevent it from happening again. When we asked them for this, they bristled, said that we weren’t forgiving, and that we needed to let go of our anger and bitterness, and that we were in sin! They refused to receive our suggestions and counsel for ending the abusive patterns.

    These Calvinistas have a deficient view of reconciliation and repentance. It’s all well and good to apologize, but actions have consequences, and consequences must be addressed. It has nothing to do with some sort of sin on the part of the victim, and to imply this is to continue to sin against them.

    Why do Calvinistas have such a hard time dealing with the consequences of their actions?

  91. Mr. H –

    That sounds horrible and very much like the revictimizing ar SGM. I’m sorry that happened to you.

    Inbelieve these men are taught, and I have heard some say, that they stand in the stead, for you. They take this very seriously and believe they are to take the place of the God in a believer’s life. When you disagree with THEM it is equated with sin. Another problem is age. The Seminaries are equating education with wisdom. Wisdom generally comes with age and not education. So you have young, knowitalls coming out of seminary thinking they have the answer for everything. It is an equation for disaster, as we are seeing in the Calvinista world.

  92. Hi Bridget,

    Thanks for your kind words.

    I agree about the age issue – in the situation I described above, the pastor and the “elders” were between the ages of 25-35. None of them had been formally trained (seminary or graduate degree).

  93. Why do Calvinistas have such a hard time dealing with the consequences of their actions? — Mr.H

    Because the Predestined Elect can do no wrong.

    I agree about the age issue – in the situation I described above, the pastor and the “elders” were between the ages of 25-35. None of them had been formally trained (seminary or graduate degree). — Mr.H

    Calvinjugend.

  94. Mr H – good for you instinctively sticking up for your wife – some men wouldn’t. I have seen the church put first and above family too many times.

  95. From what I can gather looking at these stories and what I know of leadership in this movement (by movement, you may apply it to the pun) these people are motivated by two things, the first is their image and their roles (they are constantly yammering about roles.) The second is their patriarchal mindset. They are pigs. No, not that kindof pig, pigs in the book Animal Farm where the pigs are more equal than others sort of self-serving rulers. The interest of the males seems to be more important than anything else.

    Add to that the double standard and hypocracy. These are the people that beat babies and toddlers for minor offenses. They taught this stuff as though it was doctrine. They kicked me out of my church to create a facade of uninaminity.

    Beat babies and toddlers but give a sexual perv a pass and try to force a preschooler to forgive the perv? Are you Fing kidding me.

    Nope

    And it gets worse, their teaching has actually made these poor kids fodder for perves. I will never forget the teaching of first time obedience, “Obey immediately, cheerfully, and thoroughly.”

    Greet the stranger (or face the consequences and be beaten until you finally greet the stranger after rounds of humiliating beatings.

    The adult is always right and you, the child are a festering bag of sinfulness.

    Don’t trust the bad feeling in the pit of your stomach, nope, spidey senses were trained out of you (parent-led feedings, parent-centered households. This has all led to a child not trusting their own self defense mechanisms and not being quite sure that the assault won’t somehow be blamed on them because the kid has been whipped into a parentcentric sort of submission too many times before.

    I do not see how anyone can defend these people who would be better off with a millstone around the neck and drowned in the sea if you know what I mean.

    And you know there is no defense.

  96. Oh Debra Baker – my heart hurts for you….what horrible horrible things to be taught as a child. Awful. And you’re right, that will enable abuse, & it makes me sick. This whole emphasis that all that is important is obedience, technical holiness, & nothing more makes me despair. What about all the other aspects of our humanity? Especially that of children.

  97. Updated response by SGM. See the whole statement at http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Updated-Statement-on-Reported-Lawsuit.aspx

    October 26, 2012

    Statement by Tommy Hill
    Sovereign Grace Ministries Director of Administration
    Re: A Civil Lawsuit Filed Against Sovereign Grace Ministries Oct. 17 in Maryland’s Montgomery County Circuit Court

    Though not yet served, Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) leadership has obtained a copy of the civil lawsuit filed last week against SGM and several pastors of its associational churches. This recent complaint makes broad allegations that SGM pastors were negligent in providing spiritual counsel and pastoral care in situations involving persons who had previously suffered child sexual abuse. It is important to note that it does not allege any act of child abuse by a pastor or staff member of SGM or of an associated church. SGM is not in a position to comment on the specific allegations at this time, but we are beginning a careful legal review of each allegation. Upon initial review it appears the complaint contains a number of untrue or misleading allegations, as well as considerable mischaracterizations of intent.

    I debated about which thread to post this on (and apologies if already posted.) I chose this one because it definitely violates the Prime Directive–in addition, of course, to calling the plaintiffs liars.

  98. Deb, it’s a pip. And definitely vintage SGM. It will be interesting to see it fact-checked here and at sgmsurvivors. Oh, and you’re welcome:)

  99. “This recent complaint makes broad allegations that SGM pastors were negligent in providing spiritual counsel and pastoral care in situations involving persons who had previously suffered child sexual abuse.”
    “Negligent in providing counsel and care”. As if it is merely a case of something hardly coming on their radar. If I understand right, the allegation were of diligently handling it in such a way that the molester is safe from the law and the church is not spoken of badly?

  100. I understand the desire for spokesmen at SGM to speak carefully while also seeking to slant things in their direction. However, it does seem to me that the use of *negligent* as a summary term somewhat softens the language of the lawsuit, which happens to say this:

    [begin quote] CLASS ALLEGATIONS REGARDING DEFENDANT SGM

    61. Plaintiffs seek to certify this action as a class against Defendant SGM. For purposes of the Class Allegations, the term “Church” refers only to Defendant SGM. Plaintiffs, acting in the interest of others similarly situated, allege that there is a class of male and female persons harmed by the Church’s negligent and intentional misconduct in concealing, tolerating, failing to report, and thereby encouraging sexual abuse, sexual contact, sexual exploitation and sexual misconduct by church members. [end quote]

    Anyway, the court system/jury will sort out the evidence when the time comes, and figure out in which direction the *preponderance of evidence* prevails.

    In the past 10 days or so since the lawsuit was filed, it has become increasingly clear that there are questions of “negligent and intentional misconduct” in the INTERNAL SYSTEMS of SGM — systemic, not merely evidenced in sporadic events.

    So, as I’ve suggested before, this is a good time to be reminded of the systems and the importance of “due diligence” for all of us in our churches, ministries, and non-profits. For some of what happened with Penn State’s systems, here are two quotes from the Freeh Report Press Release. I think it gives us clues to watch for questions and potential parallels that may emerge with SGM’s systems, and the difference in treatment of perpetrator versus victims …

    http://thefreehreportonpsu.com/ [the Press Release is 7 pages]

    FREEH REPORT PRESS RELEASE, EXCERPT FROM PAGE 4:

    Taking into account the available witness statements and evidence, it is more reasonable to conclude that, in order to avoid the consequences of bad publicity, the most powerful leaders at Penn State University – Messrs. Spanier, Schultz, Paterno and Curley – repeatedly concealed critical facts relating to Sandusky’s child abuse from the authorities, the Board of Trustees, Penn State community, and the public at large. Although concern to treat the child abuser humanely was expressly stated, no such sentiments were ever expressed by them for Sandusky’s victims.

    FREEH REPORT PRESS RELEASE, EXCERPT FROM PAGES 5-6:

    Although we found no evidence that the Penn State Board of Trustees was aware of the allegations regarding Sandusky in 1998 and 2001, that does not shield the Board from criticism. In this matter, the Board – despite its duties of care and oversight of the University and its Officers – failed to create an environment which held the University’s most senior leaders accountable to it. Mr. Spanier resisted the Board’s attempt to have more transparency. In fact, around the time that Mr. Sandusky, Mr. Curley and Mr. Schultz were arrested, Mr. Spanier was unwilling to give the Board any more information about what was going on than what he was providing to the public.

    After a media report on March 31, 2011, the Board was put on notice about serious allegations that Sandusky was sexually assaulting children on the Penn State campus. The Board failed in its duty to make reasonable inquiry into these serious matters and to demand action by the President.

    The President, a Senior Vice President, and General Counsel did not perform their duty to make timely, thorough and forthright reports of these 1998 and 2001 allegations to the Board. This was a failure of governance for which the Board must also bear responsibility.

  101. Phoenix

    We did see this but you make our point for us. SGM violates, and violated, the Prime Directive as do all of the men who help them in their business as usual. SHAME!

  102. Mischaracterized  intent?

    Actions speak louder than words?

    “…the (civil lawsuit) complaint contains a number of untrue or misleading allegations, as well as considerable mischaracterizations of intent.” -Tommy Hill, October 26, 2012

    TWW: …it definitely violates the Prime Directive–in addition, of course, to calling the plaintiffs liars?

    (liar, liar, pants on fire?)

    SGM response: Victims, what victims?

    I can almost hear SGM say: 

    “We provided the proper timely council, hey can we help it if they thought it was not enough? They came to us with their problems, we did not create them. Contrary to belief, we did not help the perps along, we tried to satisfy every request made of us. These are difficult issues, in difficult times. This civil lawsuit has place us in an unfavorable light, our records demonstrate we did, as a church, what we could. We open our doors to everyone without discrimination, now they want to sue us for it?”

    Reverend Charles Mahaney Tweets: “We can be sure in any circumstance that God cares about us because He didn’t spare His own Son for us (Romans 8:32). ….Faith is most tested in situations where one can do absolutely nothing and where only God can act. All one can do is stand still. Sinclair Ferguson” October 26, 2012

    Reverend Charles Mahaney response?: Victims, what victims?

    You Decide?

    IronClad