Thoughts on Bumper Stickers, Elvis, 9 Marks, Hell and Dogs

"Until we meet again, may God bless you as he has blessed me." Elvis Presley

wikicommons-federal government
 1970 public domain

Today, I had a hard time focusing on one subject, so, I decided to let you into my brain and see what is rolling around in there.Yep, I probably have ADD.

Bumper stickers declare the focus of Christians.

I remember when, as a teenager, I became a Christian. Bumper stickers declaring one’s faith became popular. When I was 19, I had two bumper stickers. One declared, “Read your Bible, it’ll scare the hell out of you.” (I was provocative back then as well.) The other said, "One Way-Jesus" with a finger pointing upward. (Please remember, I was 19)

One day, my dad and I drove to New York City from Boston to catch a cruise ship. I was behind the wheel. (I am a fearless driver, like most Bostonians). I needed to make an exit and discovered I was in the wrong lane of the Cross Bronx Expressway. In those days ,before Garmins and smart phones, getting lost, forever, in NYC, seemed a real possibility. I was unsuccessfully trying to get over, when suddenly, a car with two guys passed me on the left and honking, pointing fingers up with a smile. They wedged their car into the lane, all but causing a major traffic jam in order to let me move over to make my exit, all the while pointing upward and pointing at my bumper sticker.

I couldn't believe it. My father asked me what was going on with the other car. I explained that they were probably Christians who saw my bumper sticker and were helping out one of their own. My dad, who was not a Christian, was amazed. In the years following, he often would talk about that day in NYC. I was profoundly affected as I began to sense that I belonged to a huge community of Jesus followers. I didn't know the theology of the guys in the car or the name of their church, or their favorite Christian leaders. I just knew they were part of the "Body."

The other day, I remembered that encounter when I parked next to a car with a very cool sticker, advertising a local church. Jesus was not mentioned, just the name of the  church. I began to realize that, in the past few years, I have seen all sorts of bumper stickers for churches but rarely see any that mention Jesus.To be frank, I can't remember one and I live in the South.  Today's faith seems to be about what church one attends, how many people are there each week, the hip pastor who is a charismatic speaker, and how famous the pastor is on the speaking circuit. Jesus seems to have taken a back seat to dueling megachurches.

I wonder, if those guys had been Calvinists and I had the name of an Assembly of God church on my bumper instead of a Jesus sticker, would they have helped me? Or would they have decided that I wasn't saved and that I wasn't worth helping?

Elvis Presley’s Bible Link

Elvis’s Bible, which was given to him for Christmas in 1957 was sold at auction for $94,600.  It was supposedly used by Presley until he died in 1977. It is said that Elvis’s Bible was found next to him in the bathroom where he died. Elvis was a deeply troubled soul with a remarkable voice. He never left his Gospel roots and I think I will someday hear him singing in heaven, free from the demons that plagued him in this life. Look for Johnny Cash, CS Lewis and me.  We will all be singing along. Dee's voice will improve after  the resurrection of the body. (Side note: I decided not to discuss the underpants which did not sell. There is some sanity left in this world, after all.)

Bowhunting and me link

"No blogging today.  Opening day of bow season.  I hope your day will be a great one.  I know mine will be."

Somehow, over at Ray Ortlund's blog, this picture and its caption bothered me.  I’m still trying to figure it out. Perhaps it is because I love animals. Don’t get me wrong. I am not a vegetarian or against hunting. It just made me a bit sad.

First Friends  link

I would like to introduce you to my faithful blogging companions. All three are rescue pug dogs.

Tulip 

Yep, I named my new pug “Tulip.” I have been giggling about it for the last two weeks. We will have some fun on the blog with that name. She was dumped by a family that was too busy to take care of her after she lived with them and bonded for one year.

Petunia 

Petunia had a fist sized tumor removed from her rectal area last week. We just got the good news-it is a benign tumor. Petunia was severely abused the first 4 years of her life. Many of her teeth were knocked out, her back leg pulled out of joint and she had a traumatic injury to one eye.(Probably due to being severely beaten). She feared humans and would not come near us, except to get food, for almost a year. Slowly and steadily, she has become the sweetest, most loving dog one could imagine. She follows me from room to room and is my constant companion. She has taught me that consistent and deep love can turn around the most abused animal (or even an abused human). She gave me her first lick about 6 months ago!

Lilly 

She  came to us from a puppy mill bust as an infant when her mother died. We fed her puppy formula and she thinks she is human. She is our resident clown and lays around in the most unusual positions.In this picture she is asleep.

I believe that dogs are a gift from God to help us on our journey. Here is an excerpt from Rudyard Kipling’s Just So Stories about the naming of the dog by Adam and Eve.

“The Woman said, 'Wild Thing out of the Wild Woods, help my Man to hunt through the day and guard this Cave at night, and I will give you as many roast bones as you need.'

Wild Dog crawled into the Cave and laid his head on the Woman's lap, and said, 'O my Friend and Wife of my Friend, I will help Your Man to hunt through the day, and at night I will guard your Cave.'

When the Man waked up he said, 'What is Wild Dog doing here?' And the Woman said, 'His name is not Wild Dog any more, but the First Friend, because he will be our friend for always and always and always.”

Hell, Is it a really simple issue?

About a year ago, we wrote a post, Annihilationism: A Controversial Christian Alternative to Hell link.

Yesterday, I read an interesting article at the CNN Religion blog here about a new documentary "Hellbound?" which explores Americans' ideas about hell.

There were two sides presented. Franky Schaeffer Jr is a proponent of universalism and Mark Driscoll defended the idea of an eternal hell. As I have said before, I am not a universalist so I was more interested in Driscoll's take on the subject. Here is what he said. I bolded the relevant words.

"How long does the punishment last?

Some argue that the punishment of sinners is not eternal, a view called annihilationism. This means that after someone dies apart from Jesus, they suffer for a while and then simply cease to exist. Annihilationism is simply not what the Bible teaches. Daniel 12:2 says, “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Jesus speaks of those who “will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Grammatically, there is no difference here between the length of time mentioned for “life” and that for “punishment”; rather, there is simply eternal life and eternal death."

Our post last year addressed the fact that John Stott, in the latter years of his life, became a proponent of annihilationism. Stott, who died last year, is universally respected as a conservative theologian, even by the Gospel Coalition crowd.  So, in one corner we have John Stott. In the other corner we have well-known pastor provocateur, Mark Driscoll, whose theology is universally recognized as a bit on the dicey side.

In this article, Driscoll claims that the answer is simple. Yet, for some Christians of good will, certain subjects are not so simple. When Stott first made his views known, some theologians questioned his salvation!  However, other conservative theologians decided to simply disagree and let it go because, he was, after all, John Stott. (Side note: Stott, who died at the age of 90, remained single for his whole life.)

Christianity is not simple as evidence by the number of  denominations. The same goes for many subjects such as election, eschatology, and origin. Perhaps that is why Driscoll gets into trouble. He thinks lots of things are simple because he "simply" does not have the capacity to consider the ramifications of difficult theological issues.

Elders are now our “Gospel Fathers” and mediators. Link to 9 Marks post.

From what I can tell, this post was written because the author has problems with online preachers who cannot “disciple” their listeners. He believes that we all need “gospel” (why did I know this adjective would precede the noun?) fathers! These “gospel fathers” “mediate” the gospel to us. "Mediate" is one loaded gospel word! I thought that Christ was to be our mediator. Perhaps we now need more mediators? The post states that, if you are truly a disciples, of the gospel variety, you must go and find yourself a mediator, tout suite!

Here is what the author says.

"You’re probably wondering: “What is a gospel father?” Paul viewed himself as one: “I became a father to you in Christ Jesus through the gospel” (1 Cor. 4:14). A gospel father (or mother) is someone who takes spiritual responsibility for a disciple’s growth (Thes. 2:7-14). This relationship happens by relating to someone through the gospel.

Gospel fathers take responsibility for others by giving their disciples a template to imitate. As a gospel father, Paul exhorted his disciples: “I urge you, then, be imitators of me” (1 Cor. 4:15)

If the church is to grow, fathers must be present to be imitated. Disciples must seek them out. We must find time with men and women who can mediate the gospel to us. Pastors and church leaders must move beyond dispensing truth to offering a template. The church needs gospel truth and relational templates. We need the gospel mediated through fathers, not just guides.”

Elders are now the lead disciple makers and make disciples during crisis link.

I am a former hospice nurse who also had a daughter who struggled with a malignant brain tumor. Many of our readers have lost children and loved ones to diseases and accidents. I want you all to think back to those long and fearful days in the hospital and ask yourself, “Is this what I want an elder to do when he (and it is always a "he" in these churches) visits me in a crisis?"

The only thing that I can imagine is that this was written by a young man who has had precious little experience in learning when to push and when to comfort. You know, 9 Marks should do a word study on love. It might help them to temper some of their more strident approaches. (My child is dying and they want me to get sanctified-Good night!)

In an article at 9 Marks by Jeramie Rinne, Elders—The Church’s Lead Disciple-Makers, we learn to mature disciples through pastoral care. 

“What is the point of that elder’s hospital visit? Or why does he spend an evening with the couple devastated by infertility, or have breakfast with the elderly man who recently lost his wife of 50 years? Certainly he is there to encourage and comfort these hurting church members. But he should also be there to promote spiritual growth.”

“So instead of only asking, “How are you feeling?” and “Is there anything the church can do to help?” a discipleship-minded elder will tactfully ask questions like, “What do you think God is doing in your life through this difficult experience?” and “Has God showed you something about himself in the midst of your suffering?” He will not only pray for healing and comfort, but also for God’s refining, sanctifying work.”

“Suffering is perhaps one of God’s sharpest tools for chiseling us into Christ’s image. Elders can support spiritual growth simply by reminding brothers and sisters that their suffering has a divine purpose.”

I leave you with Elvis gospelly singing "How Great Thou Art."

Lydia's Corner:Exodus 19:16-21:21 Matthew 23:13-39 Psalm 28:1-9 Proverbs 7:1-5

Comments

Thoughts on Bumper Stickers, Elvis, 9 Marks, Hell and Dogs — 137 Comments

  1. Dee … especially glad to hear that Petunia’s tumor is benign!

    And as to ADD, maybe it MULTIPLIES theological thought. Dunno. But a lot to chew on here.

    Kind of fun to remember the “good old days” when “Christian musicians” duplicated their own cassette tapes one or two at a time on ancient-of-dayz equipment, and when “Not Religion, But A Relationship” was a Jesus People pin (and bumpersticker). I don’t think things were exactly easier back then, just in more seed form of which we are now seeing the kudzu versions taking over re-Christendom. And perhaps we’re seeing the beginnings of its implosion upon itself after numerous “gospel” explosions.

    Ah well … thankfully, Elvis is with us still, via the miracle of video.

  2. Hi, Dee.

    Thought-provoking things.

    Concerning your experience on the road with the the other car who helped you merge into the lane so you could exit — it was a kind thing to do.

    But I’m wondering why a kind gesture should be reserved for card-carrying, bumpersticker displaying “christians”? It seems to me that the best practice is to simply choose kindness towards anyone who might need it.

    A kindness reflex (as opposed to target practice, adding another notch in one’s God gun).

    I’m not suggesting that you would disagree.

  3. Well done Dee on taking in your dogs. I am not a vegetarian either, but I do believe in kindness to animals.

    To muddy the waters 😉 John Smith the Australian biker/preacher also used to hunt (not sure if he still does). However he said (I believe) that he only hunted what he could cook, and was virulently against the sort of slaughter involving jackhammers and 4x4s.

    I just about remember bumper stickers… not sure I would ever have one now, but then I wouldn’t wear a band logo or badge either.

    Elvis was indeed a troubled soul who loved gospel music and hopefully loved enough of the gospel that he experienced God’s grace. In some ways he was actually a very conservative guy. There’s an amusing account of some time he spent with some of Led Zeppelin one night, who were in awe of him.

    The 9 Marks stuff has me increasingly worried. This “disciple makers” idea has come up recently at our own church. I’ll send you a mail about it. As for the spiritual growth in crisis, surely a mature Christian will recognise that in the depth of their soul in times of crisis anyway, while a younger Christian will just need comfort and support. I for one would certainly be very tempted to get angry if I had some keen young person asking me those sort of questions in the midst of troubles.

  4. I don’t have any Christian bumper stickers on my car for the simple reason, I don’t want to hurt my witness. I know that I am not the best driver in the world, and know that I sometimes make mistakes. I remember one time seeing a car with a Christian bumper sticker getting a ticket for being in the car pool lane with only 1 person in the car (that was visible). Not the statement I’d want to make.

    On the elder witnessing during pain; He’d be lucky to escape physical damage.

    GRIN, if you think that Hell is a challenging subject, try adding the idea of Purgatory to the mix. (I personally like the idea of Purgatory, because it allows me time to take care of any unfinished business, like forgiving enemies and friends, to finish making myself clean for heaven). Think of Jesus washing the disciple’s feet at the Last Supper. (and yes, I am Catholic after being an evangelical for most of my life)

  5. It’s easy, Dee. I’ve done it before, with the Linkathons at Phoenix Preacher. You think you’ve copied a link, when it didn’t copy over – so blame your computer! 🙂

  6. “So instead of only asking, “How are you feeling?” and “Is there anything the church can do to help?” a discipleship-minded elder will tactfully ask questions like, “What do you think God is doing in your life through this difficult experience?” and “Has God showed you something about himself in the midst of your suffering?” He will not only pray for healing and comfort, but also for God’s refining, sanctifying work.”

    Isn’t this what John Piper does with every catastrophe that comes along? Uses it as a means of sanctification.

    What happened to “weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice?” You find this concept in several places in Scripture.

    What did Jesus do when his friend Lazarus died? I don’t recall Jesus worrying about anyone’s sanctification at THAT particular moment.

    9 Mark’s authors obviously believe that one of the Pastor’s purposes is to be the Holy Spirit and to make sure sanctification is taking place in the brethren’s life. It’s in black and white.

  7. Dee –

    May your pups live long and happy lives! Glad to hear Petunia will be with you longer 🙂

  8. ‘Loved your ‘ADD’ post Dee. I am usually all over the place in my head.
    I’m glad you had a positive experience with bumper stickers. But it reminded me of the Honk if You Love Jesus sticker on the red station wagon I grew up with. The problem wasn’t the sticker though. It was my parents who fought constantly with each other. They were usually quite cranky at the moment someone would actually honk which was rewarded with a mean glare until they pointed up reminding my parents they had the sticker. So embarrassing, which now reminds me of another religious thing that embarrassed me. My dad used to pray real loud over our restaurant meals. Have you ever talked about that subject on your blog. I still do not like to publicly pray in restaurants, so I don’t unless I am with others who insist on it. Anyway, I’d like to see a discussion on that topic someday.

  9. a discipleship-minded elder will tactfully ask questions like, “What do you think God is doing in your life through this difficult experience?”

    Oh my goodness! I had a former pastor do this very thing to me a few years ago! I could not believe my ears! I set him straight real quick saying I had absolutely no idea why God allowed the thing to happen and did not see any reason why I should have to know and didn’t expect to be let in on it until heaven. Job didn’t have a clue, for crying out loud! What in the world makes them think we will have the inside scoop now???

    It’s not enough we have to deal with the stress and difficulties of the problem but now we have to search out God’s unsearchable judgements while we’re at it? What are these people thinking?????

  10. Hmm….that idea of needing to make sure someone is gleaning the lesson from there hardship. Grr….it turns people away from Christianity.

    I remember when I was 18, I was driving alone on Christmas morning to see my grandmother – a 60 miles trip. I was snowing and there was a light dusting of snow on the road. I was about 15 miles along. There was a van in front of me going really slow – 25 mph. Remember, I was 18. I looked and could see that there was no one coming, so I started to pass. What I didn’t know was that right at that spot, under that snow dust, was black ice. As I turned the wheel and accelerated, the car did a 180 and I ended up in the ditch on the other side of the road.

    I sat there for a moment, then took stock. I wasn’t hurt – the car was still running and undamaged. Even though I was not particularly spiritually minded at the time, I was grateful. However, I was firmly stuck at the bottom of a 7 foot ravine in 3 feet of snow. I climbed up on the road and hadn’t even really decided what I was going to do yet when a car pulled up and offered me a ride. It was an older man alone. I took him up on it and he drove me to the next town where I could call mt grandfather to come get me. Great. I expressed my gratitude. And he said….
    “You know, this wouldn’t have happened to you if you were going to church.”
    Really???He did not even know me, let alone whether I went to church or not. It brought up anger, confusion and fear in me. I spent the rest of the 25 mile trip scooched as close to the door as I could get and said nothing…..

  11. The two funniest Christian bumper stickers I’ve ever seen (both online, sadly – I don’t see many funny ones personally):

    – “Poop on Satan” (on a car at a Christian music festival)
    – A car (spotted by a Stuff Fundies Like reader) that had “Real Men Love Jesus” on one side of the bumper and “I Brake for Saucy Wenches” on the other side.

  12. Patti,

    “…another religious thing that embarrassed me. My dad used to pray real loud over our restaurant meals…”

    Ugh

    I’ve become highly allergic to all things perfunctory. Including this.

    I risk losing the ability to breath and swallow when in the presence of someone using vertical prayer before a restaurant meal as a horizontal public statement. It is like second-hand smoke blown on principle. It is exploiting what is supposed to be a sincere sentiment to the God of the universe for another purpose (which i’m sure is loaded with more mixture of motives than one is willing to admit to oneself).

    (a preview of the discussion on this someday topic: [and tangent alert])

    For a number of years now, with all things religious I’ve asked the honest question, “why are we doing this??” So often I find the answer to be, “because that’s what we’ve always done.” Or something like that.

    Since that is an unacceptable answer, I then consider why we’ve always done that. More often than not, it seems the reason is not all that convincing.

    Ok, Jesus broke bread and gave thanks. Good. So what?

    I can believe that God has made it possible for me to have a nice, healthy meal, and as I enjoy it either think or mumble “mmmm, this is good, thanks God”. Or I can not think or say anything, and yet still believe in the kind divine provision. Whether I express it or not is no reflection of anything really.

  13. I love this ADD post! It reminds me of our conversations since I may also have some degree of ADD. It keeps life interesting…

  14. Dee,

    You forgot to mention how Lily dances in circles when a certain show comes on. If I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes, I might not have believed it. 🙂

  15. Two thoughts.

    1. Paul says he is a churches “father in the gospel.” Fine. The scripture says as much. But, the fact that Paul had to write them a letter states that he wasn’t present with them all the time. So could Paul have been the Roman world’s precursor to an “online” pastor?

    2. If you go to someone suffering and ask them what Jesus is doing in their life, they will have to come up with something on the fly to get these guys off their backs. If your child dies, is it “discipleship” to start asking the subjective question of what is Jesus doing in your life right now? I mean come on! Um, well sir God in all his divine sovereignty took our child from us and we LOVE IT! Really????

    I can see it now. Maybe when Lazarus died what really happened was Jesus walked up to the grieving Mary and Martha and said “ladies, what have we learned in all of this?” When Martha said “if only you had been here this wouldn’t have happened!!” Jesus then had his elders put her under strict church discipline until she came up with a repentance plan and followed it to the tee to show that she had finally learned and submitted to everything Jesus was doing in her life.

    Puke.

  16. Number 2 favorite bumpersticker

    Moody Bit*h seeks warm, sensitive male for love-hate relationship

  17. Along the lines of what Jesus is trying to teach people in their suffering, I once had an elder’s wife ask me at a women’s church gathering “So, what are YOU doing to keep spiritually challenged this summer?” I answered her honestly, “I’m reading Thomas Talbott’s ‘The Inescapable Love of God’ wherein he makes a case for universal reconciliation through Christ.” She was gobsmacked, had no idea what to say after that. He he he.

  18. On grief, comforting, and ‘what have you learnt from this experience’, this has reminded me of a girl I knew many years ago. She came to our church after losing both her parents to cancer within less than one year. Her aunt and uncle and cousins were already at our church, and she and her brother had moved in with them. She was a couple of years younger than me, but I was the closest in age of regular attending teens (ours is quite a small church, and I was at the tail end of the youth/high school group of the 80s and 90s). I think she was about 14, I was 16 when she came along. Obviously she was going through a lot, and I had no idea what to say in response. But I was more than happy to be the shoulder to cry on, to put my arm around her when she burst into tears, to be the person she’d express frustrations to (she didn’t get on well with her aunt, which given the circumstances was pretty understandable). I really regret that I lost contact with her – she moved to live with other relatives that she fitted in with better, then her cousins married and moved, and her aunt and uncle moved, so it’s been a very long time since I’ve seen or heard from her. But getting back to the question of how to respond to grief, part of why she didn’t get on well with her aunt was their different approaches to grief – her aunt felt that my friend needed to start moving on, to not wallow in grief, my friend just felt aimless and lost and unsure how to keep going. I don’t think either response is right or wrong, I think how you deal with grief is incredibly personal. Imposing a structure on it – be that a timeline of how long grieving is appropriate, or asking questions about what you’ve learnt, or anything else – is incredibly unhelpful and can just end up magnifying the grief.

  19. “You know, this wouldn’t have happened to you if you were going to church.”

    Oh ugh!!!!!

  20. I can see it now. Maybe when Lazarus died what really happened was Jesus walked up to the grieving Mary and Martha and said “ladies, what have we learned in all of this?” When Martha said “if only you had been here this wouldn’t have happened!!” Jesus then had his elders put her under strict church discipline until she came up with a repentance plan and followed it to the tee to show that she had finally learned and submitted to everything Jesus was doing in her life.

    Hehehe. 🙂

  21. I think mine will take the cake. I don’t think anyone will be able to beat it.
    A MALE friend, whom I shall presume has never had a baby…..told me ” I hope that you will be a good witness to the doctors and nurses…while you are in labor.” yes, my concern during labor was supposed to be…evangelism. Seriously!

  22. What really bugs me about the 9 Marks quote is the use of “only” to modify the question “Is there anything the Church can do to help?” It makes the sufferer’s experience into an isolating occasion for self reflection rather than an opportunity to experience the joy of being the church and bearing one another’s burdens. I really wish these uber-discipling leaders would sit down and give some serious thought to what “corporate” worship and living ought to look like. It’s so much more than just a bunch of people all gathered in the same place at the same time to sing a few songs together, and it’s also got to be more than me meeting with one elder/pastor/accountability partner to pursue personal growth. It’s got to be all of us together, young and old, new believers and mature saints, leaders and congregation members all sharing each other’s joys and sorrows. There may come a time for self-reflection after the crisis has passed, but let’s not downplay how fundamentally important the ministries of mercy and encouragement are.

  23. justabeliever–

    Nope–can’t top that one! Witness during labor? Are you serious? I was barely even aware of the doctors and nurses who were coming and going from the room! Coming soon to a hospital near you: “gospel” childbirth!

  24. justabeliever – I hope your babies were crying in a gospel fashion when they were born. You can never start to early in being gospelly.

  25. justabeliever –

    I hope your babies were crying in a gospel fashion when they were born. You can never start to early in being gospelly.

  26. Pam – “not wallow” -??!!!!

    She had just lost both of them. For God’s sake… that is one of the most heartless things to say to anyone, ever!!!

    *

    Dee – *so* glad to hear about the good news re. Petunia!!!

  27. Grammatically, there is no difference here between the length of time mentioned for “life” and that for “punishment”; rather, there is simply eternal life and eternal death.” — Bee Jay Driscoll

    And Annihilationism ISN’T “Eternal Death”?

  28. “Suffering is perhaps one of God’s sharpest tools for chiseling us into Christ’s image. Elders can support spiritual growth simply by reminding brothers and sisters that their suffering has a divine purpose.” — 9 Marks

    Especially if the Elder isn’t suffering himself.

    Doubly especially if the Elder has NEVER suffered in any way.

    Ever heard the phrase “Talk is Cheap”?

  29. What happened to “weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice?” You find this concept in several places in Scripture.

    What did Jesus do when his friend Lazarus died? I don’t recall Jesus worrying about anyone’s sanctification at THAT particular moment. — Brigit

    Apparently “9 Mark’s authors” are more Spiritual(TM) and more Godly(TM) than Christ Himself.

    Pam – “not wallow” -??!!!!

    She had just lost both of them. For God’s sake… that is one of the most heartless things to say to anyone, ever!!! — Numo

    I lost my mother to cancer in 1975; took me years to recover from the experience. I know someone who lost BOTH his parents to cancer within a couple months of each other; close to twenty years later, and it STILL haunts him.

    That is NOT something that can be fixed in seconds with Five Fast Praise-the-LOORDs. And anyone — ANYONE — who tells you that either never went through it, is so Spiritual(TM) and Godly(TM) he’s ceased to be human in any way, or both of the above.

  30. numo – The aunt’s way of dealing with things was to get busy with life. So she felt that, after a little while, it was time to move on. Which for her was fine, that’s how she processed/responded to it all. But she didn’t seem to properly understand that my friend needed a lot more time to be sad and lost and hurt.

  31. Sorry for my long absence, I have spent 4 weeks o/seas, catching up with my daughter and having a holiday. Only now has my brain sufficiently rebounded from jetlag to a level of coherence that can catch up on my blog reading. (resilience, I’m afraid, definitely has an inverse relationship to maturity of years!)

    I am stunned by the arrogance of people who think they can use other people’s times of suffering to promote their own spiritual agenda — and I have no doubt that is the intention, just imagine the reaction if you said your anguish was teaching you something that their doctrine didn’t agree with. If God is in my suffering and teaching me something, I think He’s quite capable of doing it without their pointless prodding; but sometimes the only thing we can learn is that horrible things happen in this world without any rhyme or reason. I honestly do not believe that God is the direct author of all my pain. But then, my name’s not Piper.

    As for the “spiritual fathers” — huh? My reaction is the same as the one I had for all my years in complementarianism when I was told i needed to have my husband as my spiritual head (a term which is nowhere in the Bible) What for? What can he do for me that I can’t do for myself?

    You know, looking at those 2 things together looks awfully like a kinder, softer (i.e. better PR) return to the Shepherding movement. Or perhaps it’s a case of ‘if your suffering isn’t teaching you enough of the right stuff, we’ll add some spiritual abuse to the mix.’

  32. Dee,

    I have an idea for a bumper sticker that ties several of your random thoughts together:

    Just think retro-70’s hyper Calvinism: “Go jump in a lake of fire.”

  33. What I “learned” in the midst of the lowest point in my life was who not to turn to for support.

  34. Some random ADD thoughts back to you. Oh, I love the pugs. Makes me very ‘dog clucky’.
    A lot of the comments, eg Robin’s, reveal that they are after ‘measurables’ – it’s an outcomes based, performance managed exercise. What happened to just ‘being’ ? Especially with grief, there is no timeline, it’s such a personal, individual thing. When in deep grief, a dear friend said nothing to me, she just walked alongside me. I’m still grateful.

    Some of the artless comments about being a witness are just shockers, they deserve their own blogroll. Yes, the childbirth one takes the cake ! I’m sure other religions also have their own cringe-able quotes they say to each other.
    Lastly – has the bogan “My Family” back window car stickers gravitated overseas yet? (an Australian family developed them). Well, the spoofs have arrived, and not before time. Latest one spotted was a solitary figure quoting “Screw your stick figure family”. Very mirth inducing. I think the singles here will appreciate. If this makes no sense I will explain further ! see mystickfigurefamily dot com dot au

  35. Dee, so glad to hear the good news about Petunia. May she have many more years of love with you, Lilly and Tulip.

  36. Pingback: Thoughts on Bumper Stickers, Elvis, 9 Marks, Hell and Dogs | The … |

  37. @ Haitch – My Family stickers, aarrrrrghh! I do like the parody ones, though, like creepy uncle and crazy cat lady.

  38. Regarding being a good witness during labor and childbirth – Doug Wilson’s son-in-law, Ben Merkle, addressed this very thing in a “position paper” a number of years ago. Not surprisingly, the actual paper has disappeared from the web, but one blogger did manage to capture some excerpts.
    http://cultists.blogspot.com/2006/09/preparing-for-labor-day.html

    Here’s an excerpt from Merkle’s paper. Prepare to gag.
    “There are plenty of stories of women in labor losing their tempers, shrieking and cursing, and generally doing things that they wouldn’t dream of doing at any other time. And most of these stories are true. When a woman is in child labor, somewhere inside, someone turns the volume on her heart all the way up and plugs in four amps. What may have been just a murmur of discontent under ordinary circumstances turns into a deafening shriek in the delivery room. Put another way, the pregnant woman is about to have a number of people come and visit her heart; and this company is going to see how well she has kept her heart in order. . . . Bitterness, when given the chance, will spring up and defile many. It is the sort of sin that easily pollutes others. If a woman goes into labor and has any sort of bitterness within her, it is a fairly certain thing that the delivery room will see this bitterness springing up and causing trouble.”

  39. hmm .. put him through the pain of a difficult labour and see whether any “bitterness” emerges!

    next will we be told that any woman who cries out during labour is clearly rebellious and not in proper submission?

  40. “Only recently did I learn that NSA faculty celebrated April Fools of 1999 by stealing letterhead from the UI provost’s office and using a UI FAX machine to distribute an announcement of visiting feminist scholars who would give their presentations topless. There is nothing wrong with a good joke, but one usually tries to avoid criminal activity in pulling stunts such as this.

    Recently Wilson defended this action in his blog: “By the time you receive this, our local police will probably have forgotten all about it, so a little bragging is now safe. . . . [My son-in-law], . . . encouraged by some winks and nudges from me, . . . made up a flyer which announced a topless and proud lecture series by topless feminist scholars.””

    http://www.tomandrodna.com/notonthepalouse/Gier_NSA_020106.htm

    LOL. I once worked in L/D and couldn’t have cared less what was in a woman’s heart-just wanted to give her a safe delivery. Maybe a domineering patriarch like Merkle would be concerned with seeing how she has “kept her heart in order”, but I would encourage Merkle to relax. Amazing what these men come up with…why? So we wimmins don’t make our headships look bad.

    Rather than be concerned about some bitterness emerging from the heart (seriously?) of a woman in labor, he might contemplate his own heart and the depths therin that would produce, well, stealing (and joking about parts of a woman’s body) instead of viewing the prank as some sort of higher intellectual antic that we commoners could not possibly understand.

  41. Jeanette

    Unbelievable story. I wonder how his life played out. Bet he had an opportunity to eat those words.

  42. Patti

    I never thought about the blessing over dinner thing. That might make for an interesting discussion.Let’s see if I can squeeze it in somehow.

  43. Bridget

    The next thing these “gospel daddies” will do is pronounce judgement as to why the illness occurred. Heck, if Piper can do it, why can’t they?

  44. Pam

    I laughed and laughed over all those dog shaming photos. I can’t wait to show my husband. I have a couple I could add.

  45. “I hope that you will be a good witness to the doctors and nurses…while you are in labor.”

    justabeliever,

    Oh my goodness! Thanks for that! I am crying from laughing so hard! What a dolt!

  46. justabeliever

    Witness while you labor?? Having helped women in labor, I can well this “helpful male” , I did not concentrate on anyone’s witness, merely getting the babay our safely and making sure mom was well. Male friend is absolutely clueless to the concept of pain and normal responses. But, being older, I can predict one thing. Sometime, in his life, he will have a circumstance in which he is hurt or sick and he will come to a realization how stupid he was!

  47. Hey, lets all pray an imprecatory prayer on Ben Merkle that he gets kidney stones … which have often been compared to childbirth in their level of pain. (I’ve had both, and I’d say it’s a fair comparison.) Then we’ll see what “bitterness” lurks in Merkle’s gospel soul.

  48. Amy

    People have often asked me how to visit someone who has a serious illness. I still remember one dear male friend from my Bible study. My daughter had just returned to her room from her second brain surgery. I was holding and feeding my newborn son. He just stood there, quietly. Finally he said, “I don’t know what to say or do but I am here for you.” Awesome!!!

  49. Numo

    Thanks. Hubby claims I used the oppotunity to slip in one more pug dog into the family! I am not copping to anything!

  50. HUG

    Your statement is key. This works if “the Elder isn’t suffering himself.” I have observed, over time, that really serious pain and siffering changes even the most religiously glib. 

  51. HUG

    You said something very important. Many people get the acute phases of diseases. But few people have the patience or compassion to hang in there for the long haul. That is why I like the phrase “long suffering.” We must be a people who are in there for the long haul. People with chronic conditions-physical or mental, often feel alone. They are often met with “get over it” or “aren’t you better yet?”

    A couple of years, after my daughter’s surgery, I expressed concern over my daughter’s condition when she fainted one day. A  friend said to me “Oh, don’t worry, she will be fine.” Don’t worry?? She had a neurological tumor with a terrible prognosis at that time. The chances of reoccurrence were extremely high and it could reoccur at any time within a 10 year range. That chronic concern, always lurking in the background, led to physical problems for me. Today, I still have IBS which found its start in those years. 

    Long suffering-far too few people understand the meaning of that word. 

  52. Pam

    The aunt probably never fully processed the pain that was experienced by the two children because she did not have the capacity to do so. There are many people in the world who run from dealing with the pain because they can’t, or won’t, handle it.The sad thing is that it became about her feelings and not the child’s feeling. I had to earn that lesson early on in my experience.

    The day after my daughter was diagnosed, I was in her hospital room, along with friends and family who were trying to get me to settle down because i was having contractions (I was 7 1/2 months pregnant.) The children’s hosptial never did painful procedures in the childrens’ rooms because they wanted the kids to see their room as a sort of refuge from the pain. It came time to draw some blood and she became agitated because they had to take her out of the room. I started bawling my eyes out and one of my dear friends went with my daughter while she got her bloodwork done.

    It hit me. I was making myself and my pain the center of the action.  But it was my daughter that had the tumor. She needed me more than ever. I vowed, at that moment, that I would be the mother I should be in this crisis no matter how hard it was. I asked God to help me to do it well, brushed away my tears, and went on to be her rock . The times I felt like i was going to break down, I would leave and go for a walk or hide in another room until I got myself together. It was a hard lesson for me to learn, but I learned it.

  53. Lynne

    Welcome back! I was wondering where you went. You nailed it. It is shepherding in all its glory but now they try to couch it in lovely theological terminology-Gospel Fathers!

  54. Diane

    i wonder what Wilson would have done if someone had stolen his letterhead and did something similar?

  55. The next thing these “gospel daddies” will do is pronounce judgement as to why the illness occurred.

    Dee,

    I suspect that is what they are trying to get you to do to yourself by asking what you think God is doing in your painful situation. And I do think “pronounce judgement” is the right term to describe their desire. I really think they are asking that question as a form of accusation, which is why Jeramie Rinne needs to use the word “tactfully”.

  56. Re: The Kirk– upcoming event tomorrow 5-6 PM: “Psalms and Beer at Merkles'”!
    Re: hunting and bumper stickers, my favorite is “Support your right to arm bears!”

  57. Interesting contributions from everyone, inc. Jimmy! Bumper stickers… a source of amusement and contention!

  58. The two funniest Christian bumper stickers I’ve ever seen… A car (spotted by a Stuff Fundies Like reader) that had “Real Men Love Jesus” on one side of the bumper and “I Brake for Saucy Wenches” on the other side.

    Hester – have you considered the possibility that this is not actually a Christian bumper sticker, but a non-Christian car-owner taking the mickey out of Christian bumper stickers?

    Loosely on the subject, those of you who have yet to see Monty Python’s “The Life of Brian” should check out this wee snippet on Facetube. If you’re prone to spraying your coffee over the keyboard following the onset of sudden mirth, you should probably finish your coffee before you watch it.

    On a more serious note…

    When a woman is in child labor, somewhere inside, someone turns the volume on her heart all the way up and plugs in four amps.

    The analogy is flawed on very many levels – for a start, I thought “child labour/labor” was the exploitation of children in the workplace. But childbirth might possibly be a setting in which the mouth speaks out of the overflow of the heart. In other words, when a traumatic or stressful event shakes us out of our rehearsed or socially-imposed composure, we reveal something of what we’re really like.

    Similarly, you can tell a lot about a church leader’s heart motives when his authority is questioned. It’s easy to be a “loving” and “godly” leader who just loves Jesus the church, when they sit quietly at your feet and say yes to you. It’s when they significantly question your actions that you reveal whether you really are eldership material.

    Mature followers of Jesus cannot help but set a Christ-like example in word and deed. They understand that their authority comes only from God, not from their job-title, and that it is given only for the building up of others. Because they are seated with Christ, they are not blown sideways into fear or guilt, even by the most aggressive criticism; they retain their peace and their dignity. But because they are full of love, they are not quick to take offence or “assume bad faith” (c.f. Wikipedia rules) on the part of their critics. They will never imagine that the health of the congregation depends on its unhindered pursuit of their own aspirations.

    Immature believers, or plain ungodly people, are just the opposite. In due course, they come to identify their own programs and ambitions for visible growth with “the gospel” or “the kingdom” and force out anyone who is not “on mission”. They may even boast about having run them over and left them as bodies behind the bus, as though to say, “if you won’t staff my business agenda, you’re out of my church; and if you’re out of my church, you’re out of God”.

  59. Similarly, you can tell a lot about a church leader’s heart motives when his authority is questioned. It’s easy to be a “loving” and “godly” leader who just loves Jesus the church, when they sit quietly at your feet and say yes to you. It’s when they significantly question your actions that you reveal whether you really are eldership material. — Nick Bulbeck

    Have you ever seen Anthony Hopkins’ portrayal of Adolf Hitler in the ’80s/’90s American TV Miniseries “The Bunker”? It fits that description perfectly — the Fuehrer being benevolent and even fatherly as long as you agree completely with him. Any question or disagreement and the screaming and carpet-chewing starts. Real scary archetype of a control freak.

  60. Hey Dee – I’m so happy to hear that news about Petunia, & I’m delighted you are redeeming the name Tulip by giving it to something warm & loving…brilliant! Winston Churchill called his depression his black dog…my black dogs are my best anti-depressant, funny what different associations things can have!

    As to the question ‘what lesson is God teaching you through this?’…I can’t think of anything more horrible during profound suffering, not only are you trying to survive, trying to cling on, you now have a spiritual task to perform…very compassionate. If someone had asked me that during the recent loss of my Mother they may have gotten my real answer, ‘I’m learning that God seems to f**k off during the worst moments of my life’. Ugly ugly ugly ugly ugly spiritual-performance based sub-love. Makes me mad. And sad.

  61. There is a woman in my life who I have often referred to as my ‘spiritual’ mother. I am sure that if she didn’t listen to God’s heart towards helping me in my early real spiritual walk that God would have raised up another for me. She never ever scolded me or was unkind or lacked compassion. In fact, one time during a real battle and I just wanted to go back to the old life and use worldly substances for my emotional turmoil (drugs, alcohol, etc.), I so thought that she would say something condemning after all the time she had poured into me, but no, she simply said that she understood the onslaught and said that she would be there for me when I was through. I never did fall back. That love and compassion from her broke that stronghold and gave me strength to stay the course. She was a true ‘gospel father.’ ick, I do not like that term! She also helped lead my husband towards spiritual maturity in Christ also beyond any man ever in his life.

  62. Wow – that Merkle article:

    Ok, as a lay “doula” – labor support person who has attended around 30 births, the business of what comes out of your mouth being indicative of what is in the heart – I call baloney on that. I think if a guy had the intensity of a freight train coming out of their male organ they might have some colorful words, too.

    I was with my sister on the birth of her 3rd baby. She wanted me there because she wanted to avoid an epidural (her previous epidurals left her with recurring migraines and pain at the injection site even a decade later) and I told her I had ways of helping her to cope with the pain. As soon as she hit transition, panic ensued (obvious sign of transition) and she dropped some very uncharacteristic F bombs directed toward me as I coached her. She is still apologizing some 12 years later.

    This seems to be more about judgment rather than grace and love. More of the same from this camp.

  63. Thank you Dee for sharing your experience dealing with your daughter’s tumor. Similar to you, I struggle with myself losing patience with my sister (you know her story) when I don’t mean to. I love her so much that I want God to heal her NOW and that causes me frustration and anxiety. It is hard to reel it in emotionally. She is the center of attention now,(as it should be) prayers and such should be towards her. thank you for admitting that you struggle with long-suffering too. I don’t feel so alone now.

  64. Beaker,

    I’m so sorry about the loss of your Mother!

    You’re response is exactly why such a question should never be asked at the time of the crisis, if it should ever be asked at all.

    Honest to goodness these people are making an art form out of insensitivity.

  65. …she simply said that she understood the onslaught and said that she would be there for me when I was through.

    Patti,

    That is ministry! There is a lot of respect in what she did there.

  66. I think it is totally up to the suffering individual to ever say how they believe that suffering made them stronger in certain areas for this life and eternity. Anything said by others is just plain cold. Even God did not tell Job what good his suffering would produce. Job declared it himself when he said he had only heard of God before but now his spiritual eye has seen him. Everything his very wrong friends said to him reminds me of what these ‘gospel fathers’ are doing. When anyone is suffering from anything I am careful not to tell them what God did in my life when I was suffering. That is still indirectly causing the same turmoil. I am to comfort others with the comfort God gave me. And that is long-suffering compassion, and not an opportunity for preaching.

  67. Julie Anne

    Oh, trust me, I plan to have some fun with her name, Tulip. To start, Tulip-What a dog!

  68. I love this poem that Isobel Kuhn quotes in ‘Second Mile People’ and think it very pertinent to this discussion:

    INDWELT (by A. S. Wilson)
    ‘Not merely in the words you say,
    Not only in your deeds confessed,
    But in the most unconscious way
    Is Christ expressed.

    Is it a beatific smile,
    A holy light upon your brow;
    Oh no, I felt His Presence while
    You laughed just now.

    For me ’twas not the truth you taught
    To you so clear, to me so dim
    But when you came to me you brought
    A sense of Him

    And from your eyes He beckons me,
    And from your heart His love is shed,
    Till I lose sight of you and see
    The Christ instead.’

  69. Thanks anonymous…I really feel for those who are suffering that live under the burdens placed on them by their religious ‘betters’…just awful. Thank God for sites like this one & iMonk etc.

  70. To your point, Patti: On the subject of suffering, a favorite writer of mine, Oswald Chambers, points out the friends of the Old Testament’s Job offered many types of comments they thought were ‘encouraging spiritual growth’. It turned out NOT to be what God would offer, however. Chambers also contends “Any theology which ignores Jesus Christ as the supreme Authority ceases to be Christian theology.” I am alarmed how closely 9 Marks is dancing up against the line of reframing our true mediator – Jesus.

    And I know the I Thess. 5:12 verse is well-known to 9 Marks, but what about the following verses that give some other advise how to treat others, like ENCOURAGE the timid, HELP the weak, BE PATIENT with everyone?

  71. The comments on the 9Marks Discipling series, though few, illustrate much.
    1: They could use a spam filter! One comment begins: “the DRI is aggressively working to dry up the time-line toward the proposal of a biological marinate to go belly up a rise to this disease.Make foolproof to be prevalent your ticket any more an look to October 3rd and 4th, which are on bargain proceedings away visiting ******Brand Name****** Relief Store. This focused be an circumstance you wishes not eagerness in spite of to miss. Warrant pictures inferior from the conclusion last week.” Several links for the brand name follow.
    2: Questions may be asked but never get answered. No one’s home!
    3: Commenter Dave (not me) has more fatherly insight for disciples than the authors. He writes:
    “I’ll restrain my carnal first impulse in assessing your “Bildadish” depiction of bringing “comfort” to the devastated soul through a clinical, dispassionate after-action review of someone’s loss.
    Whatever happened to “mourn with those who mourn?”
    This counsel sounds dangerously close to “Teacher, who sinned,…this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
    I hang my own head in shame, when recounting some of the utterly graceless “pull your self up by the bootstraps, half-time pep talk” trash that I allowed out of my mouth, while surveying the wreckage of another’s life.
    Too often we take it upon ourselves to “FIX” our grieving brother, when all he really longed for was a compassionate soul, a reassuring embrace, a literal shoulder to cry on,…and a sounding board.
    The fairer sex is famous for exposing this legendary weakness in their counterpart. We can’t be trusted to truly listen, NOR fully empathize with their troubling issue.
    Our eyes become vacant,…betraying our reflexive tendency to quickly assess the damage (after hearing “enough”)’ as we sprint out of a nearby phone booth in “SuperHero mode” rescuing the oppressed (or less gifted), with a profound corrective course,….all the while raw emotion echoes as it is poured out to an audience of NONE.
    Is it possible that an elder’s presence at the side of the hurting, is less about THEM,…but rather a TEST of one’s measure of mercy?”

  72. Thanks for posting that poem Estelle, that says exactly how I felt for this friend I was talking about. She is 21 years my senior, was on the women’s council of the church where and when I met her, yet never did she treat me any less than a friend. She would be embarrassed if I ever held her up in such high esteem as I see these gospel fathers accepting praise. She never accepted a penny from the church for her counsel. She was mortified when they offered it to her. She quit there when the head of women, the pastor’s wife demanded that she disclose any confidential discussions she had with anyone in the church that was perceived as any type of leader. Truly a gem.

  73. This past weekend, a friend of mine at church lost her dog to kidney failure. It was very sudden and I think she was still feeling the shock when I saw her at church Sunday.

    I asked, “Are you OK?”
    Her answer, “No! I’m hurting a lot!”
    After giving myself a mental head-slap (Of COURSE she’s not OK!!) I just hugged her and told her I was sorry, and also said that the dog had been just as much a member of the family as her son.

  74. On bumper stickers: I have seen a “Jesus” bumper sticker that bugs me to no end. It is: “Life a puzzle to you? Jesus is the missing piece!”

    Well, I DO have Jesus . . .and life is still a puzzle to me!

    Such as, why my son has autism. Or why a woman who had *just* graduated with a master’s degree died in an accident on her way back from receiving the diploma. Or why her 15-year-old son, who would have made a wonderful missionary, died with her. Or why my father died of ALS exactly four weeks before I was married.

    Or, or, or, . . . Those who dare to give me any simplistic answers run the risk of being eaten!

  75. more on-topic bumper sticker:

    “Practice random acts of kindness and senseless acts of beauty”

  76. I have had several “Gospel fathers” and “Gospel mothers” in my life as a Christian who helped me on my journey. However, none of them called themselves such, none of them self-consciously assumed the position and I recognised them as such through the kindness and love they showed me, as well as the advice (and sometimes exhortation) that they gave me. Their authority in my life was purely moral but very powerful for all that, more so than if someone had appointed them and certainly more so than if they had appointed themselves.

  77. Beakerj – gosh, when I think of Churchill using the term “black dog,” I think of things like this. (Hound of the Baskervilles, anyone?)

    But when I think of black dogs, I think of dogs like yours.

    fwiw, I have a mostly black bunny named Nibbles. The folks at the rescue told me that very few people are willing to adopt a black animal – my response is still “????” I guess superstitious beliefs are very persistent, even when we know that they make no sense.

  78. Part of this conversation reminds me of something I read last night:

    “For a long time I have held my peace, I have been silent, restrained myself. Now I will shriek like a woman in labor, panting and gasping for air.” -Isaiah 42:14

  79. Re the 9 Marks post – Whew! For a moment there I thought I was going to have to repent for listening to Wade’s wonderful but “technologically mediated” sermons on TWW’s e-church. But I seem to be off the hook because I don’t have a local church in which to cause trouble by making comparisons. 🙂

    As for imitating the elders of the church I used to attend, one incident comes to mind. I was sitting in the large foyer of the church in a group of chairs arranged loosely in a circle. It was a Sunday evening and I was reading while my children were in their programs. My husband had recently walked out on us and I was hurting. While I was sitting there, a group of men I recognized to be elders in the church came and, without a word to me, sat down in the same circle of chairs and started praying – for (among other things) those hurting in the church and troubled marriages (no names mentioned). Then they got up and left, still with no acknowledgment that I existed. I was stunned! I had been at that church for close to 25 years and some of those men knew me and my husband well and knew our current circumstances. Not to mention that what they had done was incredibly rude even if no one knew me. So, no thanks, I’ll stick to letting the Holy Spirit be my Teacher and using Dee, Deb, Pastor Wade, and the wonderful folks at TWW to help me grow.

  80. You’re welcome, Patti. Your friend sounds like a woman of integrity. Such a pity that your pastor’s wife couldn’t respect that and your church community is now the poorer.

    This discussion thread has made me think back to my own first fumbling attempt at evangelising at age 11 having made my decision for Christ: at breaktime (recess) there was a spat between a couple of my friends and I found myself alone with one who was quite upset. In a bumbling attempt to offer some comfort and be a witness, I asked her if she knew Jesus. She abruptly answered by saying yes, she did. Kinda killed the moment for me, so we sat there in silence. By the way, we’re still friends several decades later.

  81. Oasis, I like that verse, especially that God is the shriek-er. I uses to go sit in my car where no one would hear me.

  82. Read your telling of your incident in the foyer, Abigail. This, and so many other things… are there any good stories concerning elders?!?

    I suppose there are, but there seem to be far too many idiot stories. In much greater proportion than seems sensible if the perceived template for “biblical eldership” is so divinely right by design.

    …schmiblical schmeldership…

  83. Didn’t Elvis travel with the Blackwood Brothers so they could sing on the plane? Famous gospel group in south and midwest several years ago ALSO, I love animals, hate that blog about bow hunting, and I am a vegetarian strictly for health reasons. Most veg. or vegans consider health rather than empathy for food choices. My doctor told me not to eat red meat, etc. after I had perforated ulcer. My cholesterol cropped 24 pts.

  84. Was just mediating on this passage this am when I came here:

    “For we never came with flattering speech, as you know, nor with a pretext for greed—God is witness— nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, even though as apostles of Christ we might have asserted our authority. But we proved to be gentle among you, as a nursing mother tenderly cares for her own children. Having so fond an affection for you, we were well-pleased to impart to you not only the gospel of God but also our own lives, because you had become very dear to us.”
    ~ 1 Thessalonians 2:5-8

    Where does that “gentle among you” part come in?

  85. Speaking of Wilson’s Mother Kirk:

    I remembered this a couple days ago when reading the Wilson and classical ed thread. In that book, Wilson talks about employing the imprecatory Psalms and praying down Psalm 137 (dash your children’s heads upon the rocks” in reference to not needing to try to prevent non Christians from aborting their children. I remember discussing this in a Sunday school class once and being amazed at those who saw no problem with Wilson’s take on this.

  86. Abigail

    Those same elders probably subscribe to the 9 Marks “distinctives.” I bet that church,to which you are referring, admires Dever and all things Calvinista.  I believe that all of these guys have missed the most important distinctives of Jesus- grace and love.  Grace is being redefined as “You no good lowly worm, you better be grateful that God elected you because He despises everyone.” Love has been backburnereed because if one believe that God loves His creation, then one is “a no good stinking universalist and is probably not saved anyway.” 

    I need another cup of coffee.

  87. thatmom

    “gentle among you” is NOT a distinctive of the Calvinistas. Driscoll would say that he would not allow such a person in leadership.

  88. Hanni

    I wish I didn’t like steak so much. A vegetarian diet is very healthy, so long as one does not overdo the cheese!

    Elvis, along with Johnny Cash, represent two people who loved the faith but struggled with demons. Personally, I prefer these guys who live out their struggles instead of hiding them like many Christians. They are real. True confession: I have a pair of Sesto Meucci shoes that I got on Ebay that have Elvis embossed on the front. I have more people asking about them. Now I have confirmed that I am a nut!

  89. thatmom

    I would have seconded your observation. The people in that class have little concept of the grace and love of the Cross. They are still living in bondage to the old Law. 

  90. Dee, you said “Grace is being redefined as “You no good lowly worm, you better be grateful that God elected you because He despises everyone.””

    This is true. Having been part of a reformed church since the age of nine, I am still struggling with any self-worth. I went through a time almost two years ago when I went through great emotional pain from someone close to me. My calvinist background did not prepare me for this and I almost left the faith. It wasn’t until almost two years later that I realized one night at 2 AM “God LOVES you!” without all the election terms added on to the end of that statement.

    To know that God LOVES me, once you realize it, is powerful stuff. To realize that God made us and thought we were “very good” is a great self-esteem booster that gives comfort, knowing I am made in God’s image.

  91. Eagle

    Anyone who volunteers for a beer enema is a fruit cake. Also, said individual must not have a particularly high IQ. The guy is lucky to be alive with a .4 which can be lethal. Then he denies he did it? My kid would have been removed from college, told to get a job sweeping floors for a year to see how hard it is to earn a buck, and then sent to a community college so he could live at home with me to show him he is not earned his “grown up” card. Then maybe he could go back.

  92. “Where does that “gentle among you” part come in?”

    It is quite simple. They “redefine” the common understanding of terms like “love”, “mercy”, “grace”, kindness, etc.

    And they redefine sin to make them innocent when they are “coldhearted”, “lording it over others” and “loving their power and position”. This way, you are in sin for not obeying them.

    The entire movement and much of Christendom has become about THEM. Not Christ and certainly not about the indwelling Holy Spirit in a believers life. If you understand you have that, you won’t need them. And they cannot have that.

  93. Anyone who volunteers for a beer enema is a fruit cake. Also, said individual must not have a particularly high IQ. The guy is lucky to be alive with a .4 which can be lethal. Then he denies he did it? — Dee

    I don’t think it was a “beer enema”. The article said “alcohol enema” — for all we know, it was an Everclear enema. (Which would make more sense, as the whole point of the exercise is to get “as drunk as you can as fast as you can”. Binge Drinking — as in falling-down-drunk four days of the week, offset the hangover the next morning with another drink and another and another — is THE big College Campus sport these days.

    I remember my last sojourn onto a University campus, a gaming club around five years ago. D&Ders might have their problems, but spending four days every week falling-down-drunk was NOT one of them.

  94. “their suffering has a divine purpose”

    Ahh yes, the old “God’s will” offered as words of “comfort”, particularly on the death of a loved one. Never made any sense to me. To quote that eminent theologian George Carlin, if that’s the case, then our reaction should be:

    “ ‘Hey Boys, let’s go down to the church and get this guy God’. Can you see a lynch mob in front of the church? ‘That’s the fourth guy he’s killed this week!’ “

  95. Male friend is absolutely clueless to the concept of pain and normal responses. But, being older, I can predict one thing. Sometime, in his life, he will have a circumstance in which he is hurt or sick and he will come to a realization how stupid he was! — Dee

    In my college days, we had a local splinter “fellowship” which tried to out-Navigator the Navigators in attitude and Godliness (you can see where this is going). It’s main on-campus rep was like that — always exhorting the hurting to “Five Fast Praise-the-LOORDs” and “Five Minutes In Scripture With The LOORD Every Morning” would solve anything. If your life wasn’t unicorns farting rainbows 24/7, it was because of Your Sin and Backsliding and/or you were Never REALLY Saved. (This guy also had a very underhanded infinite-regression “Soul-Winning” tactic to break down any assurance of salvation you had named after him.)

    I always wanted (but never got) to be around the guy when HIS life blew up in a way unfixable by Five Fast Praise-the-LOORDs or Five Minutes of SCRIPTURE(TM) Quotes. Just so I could throw his exact same Godly(TM) words right back at him.

  96. HUG,

    “unicorns farting rainbows?”

    LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! Glad for that laugh to wake me up, my coffee hasn’t kicked in yet.

  97. HUG

    Thank you for the correction. As you can see, I am not well versed in the fine art of enema alcohol parties. 🙂

  98. HUG: “infinite-regression “Soul-Winning” tactic to break down any assurance of salvation you had”
    In my college days, I joined up with the Navigators after a similar method was used. I had been REALLY saved about 10 days earlier, but didn’t know the four spiritual laws, so I prayed the “Sinner’s Prayer” with them. They then noticed the day circled on my calendar– Why is that circled? Oh… Er…Um…Just kinda special….
    IMO, binge drinking was THE big College Campus sport in those days, also. Some students failed to return the 8 miles alive from Moscow, where the legal age was 19.
    Speaking of Moscow and drinking, don’t forget Psalms and Beer tonight at 5 at the Merkles’!
    I googled “Psalms and Beer”, and apparently The Kirk is the first to make this an official church event. No doubt they will begin a trend.

  99. @ ThatMom:

    “In that book, Wilson talks about employing the imprecatory Psalms and praying down Psalm 137 (dash your children’s heads upon the rocks) in reference to not needing to try to prevent non Christians from aborting their children. I remember discussing this in a Sunday school class once and being amazed at those who saw no problem with Wilson’s take on this.”

    So I just thought of something. Does Wilson ascribe to the Reconstructionist reading of Genesis 1:26-28 (that Christians are supposed to “take dominion” over institutions in society and/or unbelievers)? Because if he does, I’ve held for a long time that the only logically consistent reading of that interpretation is to say that unbelievers are not made in the image of God (since image-bearing is the reason that those who have “dominion” have it in the first place). Everything Wilson said would make perfect sense if he believed that. If unbelievers aren’t made in the image of God, then an unbeliever aborting their baby would have no more moral impact than euthanizing a cat, and praying down curses on unbelievers would be no different than asking God to remove aphids from your garden. (And yes, I know it sounds awful. Because it IS awful.)

    Note: I am NOT saying Doug Wilson actually believes this. I am saying that his comments would make sense within this paradigm.

  100. If Wilson said that about Ps.137, I am astonished and flabbergasted. Firstly, at the exegesis, and secondly at the apparently lack of any moral compass. It makes him sound like the worst sort of jihadist.

    But I suppose if he’s into this “covenant seed” thing then it becomes more like a race concept, ie from his point of view the fewer the “non-covenant seed” the fewer problems. Someone please correct me if I have misrepresented or misunderstood this man’s comment.

    Considering he’s big on C S Lewis, it strikes me that he’s not taken on Lewis’s comments about the imprecatory parts of the psalms, nor on how they could be read today.

  101. Dee,

    I am soooo glad to hear that Petunia is on the mend. Our two little dogs are like family to my wife and I, so I know what it’s like when they fall ill.

  102. Elastigirl wrote:

    “…Practice random acts of kindness and senseless acts of beauty…”

    A hearty AMEN here! You mean it’s that simple to fulfill the Law and the Prophets?

  103. Everything Wilson said would make perfect sense if he believed that. If unbelievers aren’t made in the image of God, then an unbeliever aborting their baby would have no more moral impact than euthanizing a cat, and praying down curses on unbelievers would be no different than asking God to remove aphids from your garden. (And yes, I know it sounds awful. Because it IS awful.) — Hester

    GODWIN’S LAW WARNING…

    The Shoah made perfect sense (and was even a Service to Aryan Humanity) if you believe the Nazi Race Cult — that only Aryans/Nordics were truly human (aka “made in the image of…”) and Jews were vermin. Because then Auschwitz & Treblinka were only “removal of aphids from the Reich garden” on a heavy-industrial scale. THAT’S how far that kind of Us/Them thinking can go. And HAS GONE.

  104. “unicorns farting rainbows?”

    LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! — Jan

    That actually came from a JibJab animated video spoofing both candidates in the 2008 Presidential Elections. The specific image was of Obama riding a rainbow-farting unicorn into a Hopey-Changey Candyland. (For McCain, they animated a composite of various World War 2 poster imagery.)

  105. Muff –
    Two comments on “fulfilling the Law and the Prophets”:
    (1) Jesus said that all of the Law can be stated as “Love the Lord God with all of your mind, heart, soul and body” and “Love your neighbor as yourself.” So random acts of kindness goes a long way if motivated by your love of God.
    (2) Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets for us, in all respects, save the requirement to accept the grace gift and carry out (1) above.
    Thus, I do not concern myself with any “law” issue from the OT — that has been fulfilled, and now serves only to prove that Jesus is the One foretold as bringing us God’s love.

    Jesus did it and I believe it — thus my duty is to give myself away in love to those around me to whom I can share the love I have received.

  106. Eagle, am I right to ask that perhaps you are in better health and spirits these days?

  107. “Wilson clarified his position on rape yesterday, making it clear that rapists will be dealt with (as will “slanderers” who accuse Wilson of promoting rape….)”

    Sitler? The molestation of children. He seems to think otherwise concernig him. But then, Wilson holds the “keys to the kingdom” and knows best for everyone.

  108. @ HUG:

    “…only Aryans/Nordics were truly human (aka ‘made in the image of…’) and Jews were vermin. Because then Auschwitz & Treblinka were only ‘removal of aphids from the Reich garden’ on a heavy-industrial scale. THAT’S how far that kind of Us/Them thinking can go. And HAS GONE.”

    And the fact that Reconstructionism presupposes Calvinism should make us very uncomfortable too. Not because Calvinism is bad, but because it would be so easy for Recons to twist it into something like this. They have the corruptible concept (election) ready made for them and served on a silver platter. It’s not a huge leap from the Recon interpretation of Genesis 1:26-28 to “Christians are a superior race because we are elected and you are not. And you heathens are really a drag on our holiness, so why don’t we just get rid of you…”

  109. HUG,

    I’m laughing all over again! The visual of Obama on a rainbow-farting unicorn is just… hilarious! I can’t stop laughing!

    Which is nice, because I’m having a hard night. So thank you. 🙂

  110. Anon1

    I think that Ace Hardware is offering some deals on copying keys. perhpas i will go get me some “keys to the kingdom” and pretend that I, too, am a Noe Cal Pope.

    Doug Wilson disqualified himself as any moral arbiter due to the Sitler situation. He is a foolish, pretentiouos man. I am waiting for the day when a YRR picks up the story and writes about the beauty of a child rapist marrying a naive young woman and why is the leader in that “family.”

  111. And the fact that Reconstructionism presupposes Calvinism should make us very uncomfortable too. Not because Calvinism is bad, but because it would be so easy for Recons to twist it into something like this. — Hester

    Calvinism and Extreme Islam have a lot more in common than you think. Both are Extreme Predestination beliefs and have all the baggage of Extreme Predestination:
    1) Fatalism and Passivity — “In’Shal’Lah… Eh, Kismet….” “Why Bother? It’s All Predestined.”
    2) No brake on the Corruptible — “I Do This Because I Am Predestined/Fated To Do So.”
    3) Ready Made Excuse Machine — “Not My Fault! I was Only Following Predestined Orders! See (2) above!”
    4) Us-vs-Them/Master Race Theory — The Predestined Elect/Faithful vs the Predestined Damned/Infidel. Elevated to the Cosmic Importance of “God Wills It!”
    5) An Omnipotent God but NOT a Benevolent One — God’s Omnipotent POWER overrides everything else, placing God (and his Predestined Elect) beyond Good and Evil; God Can WILL Evil, and Who Are We To Call It Evil? GOD WILLS IT!
    6) Vision of a Perfect Christian/Islamic State on Earth, from Geneva to Talibanistan. GOD WILLS IT!

    My writing partner (the burned-out preacher) has told me of run-ins with Young Truly Reformed Hyper-Calvinists, so far into Predestination they’ve taken it into “Socratic Atheism”, where even God becomes just another puppet of Utter Predestination, Willing only what HE has been Predestined to Will.

  112. Kolya, I’m reporting it as he told it to me. He introduced me to the term “Socratic Atheism”, meaning if God is controlled by something else (like Utter Predestination), then God is NOT God, whatever is controlling God is.

    He wonders why so many of these Hyper-Calvinists are so young (usually in their Twenties). He thinks it might be an effect of the Grinning Nihilism you see everywhere — everything is Crapsack and Grimdark, the idea that everything is controlled by something behind the scenes — whether Predestination or Conspiracy — is oddly comforting. No need to act, no need to think, no need to do anything except passively await Fate. It’s All Predestined. In’shal’lah…

    I saw a similar dynamic with “It’s All Gonna Burn” in the heyday of Hal Lindsay — when The World Ends Tomorrow (at the latest) and It’s All Gonna Burn, why bother to try? Why bother to do? There is No Future. Just sit back and wait for the Big Snatch.