Complementarianism for Dummies REDUX at The Gospel Coalition

"If you hear someone tell you that complementarity means you have to get married, have dozens of babies, be a stay-at-home housewife, clean toilets, completely forego a career, chuck your brain, tolerate abuse, watch Leave It to Beaver reruns, bury your gifts, deny your personality, and bobble-head nod "yes" to everything men say, don't believe her. That's a straw (wo)man misrepresentation. It's not complementarianism.  I should know. I'm a complementarian. And I helped coin the term."

Mary Kassian

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aiga_toilets_inv.svg

Male/Female Symbols

IT'S   B-A-C-K!!! 

In case you missed Mary Kassian's masterpiece, Complementarianism For Dummies, no worries.  The Gospel Coalition is currently featuring it front and center (link)

The comp crowd must be enthralled with this article because it has been featured on:

(1) Kassian's website Girls Gone Wise (link)

(2) Justin Taylor's blog at The Gospel Coalition (link)

(3) The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW) blog (link)

When the article first appeared in early July 2012, we discussed it in a post entitled Is Complementarianism for Dummies?  At this point, that post has 395 comments.  Mary Kassian does not allow comments on her website (under that article), nor does CBMW, and Justin Taylor has closed comments.  At this point The Gospel Coalition is allowing commentary on the post.

Here is a challenging comment by AJG (9/5/12 @ 8:30 a.m.) that squeaked through on TGC's website:

"Owen Strachen says that women are called by God to be housemakers and that men are called to work outside the home because Adam tilled the ground. He openly mocks husbands that help equally with chores around the home.

Denny Burk and Doug Wilson prefer the term patriarchy to complementarianism because its easier to remember and spell and people know what the term means. They admit that patriarchy AND complementarianism are the same thing.

So it seems that even highly visible self-proclaimed complementarians do not agree on what the term means. It's no wonder that egalitarians are suspect about complementarianism because if it looks like hierarchy and smells like hierarchy, it's probably not equality in any sense of the word."

And Brad left this comment (9/5/12, 4:31 p.m.), which I hope will stand:

"I attend a complementarian church. And from what I can tell, complementarianism does actually boil down to this:

"Get married, have…babies, be a stay-at-home housewife, clean toilets, completely forego a career…bury your gifts."

Just being honest."

The Gospel Coalition is featuring an interview of Mary Kassian that I have not seen before.  Take a look…

There has been quite a bit of information directed at women on TGC's website from its first National Women's Conference called Here Is Our God to articles and books plugging complementarianism.  It does appear to be of primary importance to The Gospel Coalition crowd. 

Why is this post by Mary Kassian being repeated over and over and over again?  Is it because we are just so DUMB

I have a theory about why Kassian's post has shown up yet again over at The Gospel Coalition… 

There is another website where this post appeared back in early July – True Woman (link).  In case you aren't aware, there is another women's conference coming up called True Woman 12, and registration closes tomorrow – September 6.  The conference is just two weeks away (September 20-22) at the Indianapolis Convention Center.  To learn more, you can go here

Mary Kassian and Nancy Leigh DeMoss recently wrote a book entitled True Woman 101: Divine Design.  It's an eight week study on biblical womanhood.  Does anyone doubt that this will be the heavily promoted resource at the True Woman conference?  Here's the promo video:

I have been looking forward to discussing the True Woman movement and will be sharing what I have discovered very soon!  Stay tuned…

Lydia's Corner:   Genesis 48:1-49:33   Matthew 15:29-16:12   Psalm 20:1-9   Proverbs 4:20-27

Comments

Complementarianism for Dummies REDUX at The Gospel Coalition — 135 Comments

  1. I think it’s hysterical that the church is obsessed with trying to teach women how to be women! lol Really! Can they be anything else?

    I got a chuckle out of Mary when she was asked “what does complementarianism look like” and she replied that there was a difference of opinion about how that actually plays out. It reminded me when Nancy Pelosi was asked what was in the 1,200 pg. ObamaCare package and she said we really won’t know until it passes! Trying to convince us of something they can’t convince themselves of is futile to say the least.

  2. Dee,

    Don't you just love it when a woman who never had daughters (Mary Kassian) and a woman who has never married or had kids (Nancy Leigh DeMoss) presume to tell our daughters how to live?

  3. I think they are worried. The rise of the internet and blogs is KILLING complementarian in more ways than they can keep up with. It is one thing to listen to this teaching at church and quite another to read it being analyzed scripturally on blogs. Some great teachers have been out there that were basically unknown outside the academy and the internet introduced them to the masses of Christians reading blogs. Names like Mary Kroeger, Katherine Bushnell, Ben Witherington, etc, etc. Cheryl Schatz had done yeomans work on thsi topic and interpretations. I highly recommend her DVD serious women set free.

    Even Russ Moore admitted they were losing. And they are. Most comps do not even live out a comp marriage but a more mutual marriage. More people have to have 2 incomes to make it and provide decent for their children. The idealized comp world was too complicated and they need a Talmud for us to keep up with all the rules and questions. (At what age is a boy a man and you should not teach him? Since Christ was a male and gender is so important to spirituality, then who is our feminine role model in scripture for our “roles”? The list is long)

    They are trying to make comp more palitable and that is hard because the word itself is Orwellian. And that is catching up to them. They love to redefine words and concepts.

  4. Deb –

    I’m wondering if any serious theologian from TGC has critiqued Mary’s article, or are they just reposting it all over the place? It seems they want a woman to be the mouthpiece for them now . . . But why? They think the teaching will be “received” better from a woman than a man?

  5. Not only has Nancy DeMoss never been married but she is from a stinking rich family. It would be very hard for her to be "submissive" in all things when it is her money he married unless she married an even richer guy. It would always be HER money that he managed. Kind of awkward starting out like that when you believe in this nonsense.

  6. Thank you so much for the link leading to Wade Burleson’s explanation of 1 Tim. 2:12!!!!!

  7. Anon 1,

    Yes, Nancy Leigh DeMoss has lived a life of incredible privilege. I guess this is where her mom lives – Nancy DeMoss House

    Here is the description of the residence at the above link:

    "DeMoss is the widow of Arthur S. DeMoss, who founded National Liberty Corporation, a Pennsylvania mail-order life insurance company. Her daughter, Nancy L. DeMoss is an author, the host and teacher for Revive Our Hearts and Seeking Him, two nationally syndicated radio programs, heard each weekday on nearly 1,000 radio station outlets, and the general editor of Biblical Womanhood in the Home."

     

  8. Does Nancy live there, too? She should be at her parent’s home if she’s single, right? Wait, are they of the patriarchal camp? This comp/patriarchal stuff is confusing.

  9. WOW! Women who attend True Woman '12 can earn college credit!!!

    Here's how:

    "If you are an undergraduate or graduate student at any school, you have the opportunity to earn three hours of transferable credit from SBTS by attending True Woman ’12.

    All you need to do is:

    1. Sign up for the SBTS class (link)

    2. Sign up for the True Woman ’12 Conference (link)

    3. Complete the additional class work required, which includes reading and writing a reflection paper."

    Since Louisville and Indianapolis are only 2 hours apart, the conference location is fairly convenient for Southern Seminary students.  🙂 

  10. How is it “complementary” when their mantra for women is submit, submit, submit? It’s really the “divine right of men”, women are to be out of the pulpit (and any other church office of significance) and under men’s thumb. Not enough whitewash in all of Christiandom to cover that up.

  11. "Does Nancy live there, too? She should be at her parent’s home if she’s single, right? Wait, are they of the patriarchal camp? This comp/patriarchal stuff is confusing."

    This part is always interesting. Methinks Nancy is much freer being single. However, I was around the comp camp for many years, and I was always amazed at the women conference speakers being so educated, accomplished and world travelers while telling the women in the group to stay home and raise their kids. I have always wondered how Dorothy Patterson could have midnight buffets with Yasser Arafat in Saddam's Palace while being home raising kids and doing laundry. :o) Or Al Mohler who has an orientation for young seminary wives, giving them the stay at home and have kids advice, while his daughter is single and works for a Senator in DC.

  12. Anon 1,

    Preach it!  I wonder how much Mary Kassian is home taking care of her hubby.  I assume all of her sons are grown?  I’m trying to picture her as a mother-in-law instructing her daughters-in-law.  🙂

  13. “Owen Strachen says that women are called by God to be housemakers and that men are called to work outside the home because Adam tilled the ground. He openly mocks husbands that help equally with chores around the home.”

    This sounds like John Eldredge’s emo claptrap in Wild At Heart. Adam was created outside the garden so he’s WILD and likes to do WILD WILDERNESS MAN things. Eve was created in the garden so she likes pretty domestic woman things. Blah blah blah blah blah. I read the introduction to that book and my eyes glazed over.

  14. Watching the interview, a number of thoughts have come to mind…

    1. How awkward the pronunciation of this made-up word ‘complementarianism’ is. Even one of the co-creators stumbles over it.

    2. The answer that Kassian gives to Jenny’s original question is so telling. Jenny asks “How do we manage to not feel boxed in by what we believe?” (paraphrasing) and Kassian answers “The box that you’re boxed in by is actually freedom! You’re free to wiggle inside of that box, just don’t let yourself think of how you’re actually stuck inside of a tiny box. Think of it as a huge field, instead! Look how free you are to run and minister (as long as the people you are ministering aren’t males who have hit puberty!)”

    3. How does complementarianism actually work? “We dunno!”

    4. Authority and Responsibility belong to the man, but there’s Mutuality!

    Yeah, okay… sure thing, Mary. I don’t think that word means what you think it means.

    5. How could there be anything but one-ness and unity in a home where the man makes all of the decisions, and the wife joyfully submits to his leading? Nothing but harmony and peace when the woman has no voice of her own.

    That portion of the video took me back to my pre-marital counselling, where I was told that once we were married, my duty was to submit to my husband (even if I KNEW without a doubt he was wrong!) and that even if he was leading us down a path that would take us to homelessness, my submission would eventually make God lay it on my husband’s heart that maybe, just maybe, he should listen to my opinion. My opinion, which of course, should be reflective of my earthly head’s opinion.

    6. Shame on any woman who feels marginilised or voiceless in the church as it is today, don’t you know suffering is christ-like? Look at the big picture!

  15. FYI All,

    All those hours of research are paying off as we attempt to piece together the patriarchy (err complementarian) puzzle.  Here’s one puzzle piece I discovered before Dee and I began blogging.

    Owen Strachan (<--- this is the correct spelling of his last name) wrote the following on his blog four years ago:

    “We are all blessed in many and different ways, but a personal joy for me is the fact that I have a theologian for a father-in-law. Deep question come up? Write an email. Theological incongruity emerge? Ask your in-law. Mysterious doctrine baffle the mind and heart? Pull up a chair after dinner. I don’t often publicly mention how blessed I am to be the son-in-law of the humble, gifted, godly Bruce Ware, but I want to today. It is a privilege and a great help to me–I am so thankful for my father-in-law, for his ministry to church, academy, and world, and for his great personal kindness to his family. I don’t deserve to be related to him, but I am honored to be so.”

    Yes, Owen Strachan is Bruce Ware’s son-in-law. (link) Imagine that…

    You can read about Strachan here. He’s got all the right connections…

  16. Searching, love your analysis of the video. The other thing that struck me in it, and in Kassian’s writing, is how there can be so many words and so little content. There’s lots of vague wishy washy statements, lots of filler, but little of substance.

  17. Deb
    Let’s see, a woman who is not even leading a complementarian life is telling us that the rest of us are dummies and need to be “taught” by her. She leads a life of privilege. Let me tell you, when she walks into a room, the men listen because she carries a fat pocketbook.

    She does not have to clean a house, take care of 12 children and homeschool all of them. She doesn’t have a husband who tells her that she is to keep silent in church and that she is never allowed to read a Bible out loud in church.

    I am not impressed. (I am talking about Nancy DeMoss)

  18. Hester – you mean you haven’t read the “twirling princess” stuff in John & Stasi Eldredge’s book for women?!

    It is truly awful, though reading the comments at sites like amazon.com is a bit scary, since so many people are so strongly pro-Eldredge, no matter how nutty they get. (and they do, they do.)

  19. @Pam

    Yes, I noticed the same thing! The interviewer asked some pointed questions, and got airy-fairy namby pamby drivel in response. “How do we LIVE in this CAGE (complementarianism)” “Pretend the cage is a field! Run, skip and play! Not happy yet? Close your eyes and think of Jesus!”

    Funny, I always thought that Jesus came to set the captives free, to release the oppressed. But somehow we are supposed (designed!) to be locked up within a fence, and be happy about it?

    I’ve noticed that Kassian’s new buzzword is ‘mutuality’. She is dressing up Patriarchy in a sparkly outfit and calling it Mutuality (-that we better be happy about or Jesus will cry!)

    I agree with Dee, I am not impressed.

    I am also curious as to why the Patriarchs (oops, Complementarians) are trotting out their prize pony to peddle their toxic belief system to the masses. Like Bridget said, do they believe their ideas will be more palatable coming from a woman? Straight from the horse’s mouth, “…in a church enviroment and in Scripture there is an area of authoritative governmental responsibility that is exclusive to men.”
    So why is Kassian free to exercise her gifts of leading and teaching, and other women are not? Consistency, they have none.

  20. What gobbledygook! Mary and Jenny are working waaaay too hard in that video (note the tense facial expressions). Couldn’t even watch the whole thing. They must have too much time on their hands.

  21. Deb,

    I am simultaneously flattered and humbled. I wouldn’t know where to begin in writing a guest post, but I do appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts on a blog that I have admired and followed for years.

    I’d like to think about it, if the offer still stands. Could I email you privately?

  22. This will not be an original comment. Complementarians don’t have much to say about single women who don’t want to get married. On the rare occasions, single women are mentioned it is usually in conjunction with instructions about waiting for a husband. Submit to whom? Can’t be parents. After a period, the older single woman either no longer has parents or may be caring for them. If you’re like me and have found that most ladies’ functions are not for you, then you have additional problems. In an egalitarian system, I can seek to use my gifts wherever I can or wherever there’s a need. In a complementarian system, er, where would that be?

  23. Substitute “prison cell” for “box” and you’ve got a good description of this oppressive “doctrine”.

  24. The amount of word vomit it takes to avoid saying what they are really saying…it’s staggering. Just answer the question with a quick “ladies, sit down, shut up and submit to those with baldness genes and penises” and spare us your patronization.

    Don’t mean to be crude but good grief that was friggin painful.

    And the only thing “mutual” about complementarianism (stupid, dumb, fake word) is the exclusivity of its conclusions.

    Searching,

    awesome job pointing out the contradictory BS about being fenced in, but not really fenced in. Welcome to the surreal world of neo-reformed doctrine.

  25. I’ve been pondering Mary K. lately – I think she can be viewed as intentionally offering a picture of complement….mutual….er, boxed in woman. She is complementary to the male leaders of the movement. She supports them in their leadership. She exhibits joyful, if not intelligent submission. I’m not trying to be snarky here, but she comes across as skillful at smoothing things over, but not intellectual, in her writing on the subject. I think the male leaders try to lend her the intellectual chops by her professor’s job, but in that enviroment she doesn’t need to be intellectual or competitive, just sweetly passing along what the men above her have decided she should say. That’s what complementarianism is, right? Evidently they have recently decided that she should say the word mutuality over and over again.

  26. @ Numo:

    “…you mean you haven’t read the ‘twirling princess’ stuff in John & Stasi Eldredge’s book for women?!”

    Gag! No. What happened was this. A family friend ordered Wild At Heart but, for some reason (I can’t remember why), had it shipped to our house for her to pick up when she could. So it was lying around and I picked it up out of curiosity. I think I got through the introduction and part of the first chapter and I couldn’t take it anymore.

    I do vaguely remember something about princesses – that men/boys have an innate need to have adventures and rescue, and girls/women have an innate need to be “looked at” and admired? Something like that. I remember his “evidence” for women’s innate need to be looked at was a little girl running up to her dad when he came home to get him to look at her new dress. Something I never did. I guess that means I’m not a real woman? Shrug.

    (Of course, if a little boy ran up to his dad when he got home to get him to look at the Lego bridge he built – that’s not the same thing. Because it’s not.)

  27. Dana

    Let’s see-dance and sing in your box. I think she should watch The Trueman Show.

    How poetic, but not necessarily biblical. Two can play at that game. If we are into platitudes there is the “Ships are afe in the harbor. But ships are not built to stay in the harbor.”

  28. The Wild at Heart thing is not as simple as all that, nor can it be blamed for or looked upon as part of the foundation of the problem. But it definitely can be looked upon as contributing to the problem. And I say thing as a person who was actually helped by some of the things Eldredge had to say, not in Captivating (cause I never read that one) but in Wild at Heart.
    I believe his heart is in the right place, since he was coming against legalism which I needed, but Eldredge’s foundation is all askew which has led to a lot of damage in the Kingdom of God.

    I did a series on this on my blog which I’ll link in another comment. But for now, here are my thoughts on his “Men are made outside the garden” garbage:

    http://frombitterwaterstosweet.blogspot.com/2011/04/my-main-issue-with-wild-at-heart.html

  29. I just watched the video. Gag. Its astoundingly Orwellian (in a nice Christian way, of course). SLAVERY IS FREEDOM.

  30. It is ironic….that these childless/childgrown women tell others how to live when they live a life of debate/teaching/not-exactly cleaning the toilet kind of life. However…I guess that they HAVE to be the ones….since the women who are out there bearing children, homeschooling, being perpetually pregnant/nursing and submissive….are too POOPED to make the Christian seminar circuit!!!!!

  31. The interviewer says it (togetherness and oneness done well in a comp marriage) “rarely works out well” and asks Kassian to address women who have been hurt. The answer I heard was basically to get busy and display the gospel and remember the big picture. What kind of answer is that?

    And I was so happy playing in the box/field, not looking for the fences that “so many people are trying to define”, (and can’t because so many comps just do not agree on how this plays out in real life) and now I see Kassian nodding her head in the affirmative when the interviewer says hey-this is rarely working out well – can you give us some encouragement? I thought the field was a freedom-filled happy place…lol.

  32. “It is ironic….that these childless/childgrown women tell others how to live when they live a life of debate/teaching/not-exactly cleaning the toilet kind of life.”

    Yes–that comment reminds me of something I heard patriarchal king extrordinaire Kevin Swanson say on his “Generations” radio show.

    Paraphrasing–Wife needs to be home and homeschooling to keep the kids out of the evil gubmint schools. Wife working = evil. Get two jobs, husband, so the wife can stay at home. If that means selling your home-do it. Move into a small apartment. If that is not enough- move into a small trailer…whatever you have to do to keep the wife at home.

    But Swanson lives in a very nice home in Colorado.

  33. My oh my…that first video was full of saccharine happy-shiny mutual admiration.

    Searching is absolutely right. Kassian didn’t really answer any of the questions and instead subtly condemns those who have been hurt by complementarianism/patriarchy when she implies that those people don’t see the big picture.

    These complementarians shift between placing every part of human behaviour within the frame of complementarianism – defining what is and isn’t allowed – and the other extreme of nebulous suggestions. Perhaps Kassian can’t specify what it looks like because…hang on, it’s completely made up!

    This doctrine is sick, and prompts many young women to deny their giftings and pre-emptively limit their contributions to society. Just the other day I felt I had to comment on a friend’s facebook status about this. She’s a few years younger than I am – we know each other through a church we were in as children. She’d asked for advice on how young women could draw the line between being successful and educated, while still enjoying the ‘fruit of submission’ and being feminine. It was a brief, friendly exchange, but her reply troubled me. I’d said that mutual submission (Eph. 5:21) is a wonderful ideal, and that it applies to men and women – we’re meant to encourage each other’s growth. I said that we shouldn’t conform to a man-made ideal of what it means to be a woman, but that we’re called to use the gifts we’ve been given.

    In her response, she said ‘but don’t you think that even if a woman is gifted in leadership or more skilled than a man, she should “hold back” to allow him to exert his authority?’

    🙁

  34. Mary just gets done explaining how marriage and church are similar and how we all enjoy unity and mutuality with complementarianism done well when her interviewer states that it is rarely done well. I just wish we could see Mary’s face at that moment. I wonder if they discussed the questions ahead of time.

  35. Never forget that Narcissists, Anti social Personality disorder and other toxic males are very much attracted to complementarian doctrine. It does a lot of foundational work for them to control women. It makes it a sin to not follow a narcissistic husband. AND, it enables sin.

  36. JJ –

    I would have pointed out to your young friend that we “hold back” and allow others authority when we do, in fact, possess our own. I would also point out that an attitude like that actually expresses a maternal patronizing view of men that I do not approve of. Men are grown-ups and should be treated as such.

  37. “But Swanson lives in a very nice home in Colorado.”

    Yes and people actually pay him for advice to live in a trailer. Ironic, huh?

  38. @ Dana,

    That’s what I thought. The picture of this happy freedom-filled field with boundaries no one can agree upon, and then the comment–“It’s rarely done well”???

    Mary is nodding her head in the affirmative-is she agreeing? (instead of denying that and saying it IS done well, it IS done well, look at me, look at me). Her remedy?- oh well, guess you poor saps out there who don’t have the great husband I do just gotta suck it up and display the gospel. That is her encouragement for hurting women?

  39. Well, the only explanation I had for the head nod was reflex. And maybe encourage the interviewer to keep speaking while she shifted gears from “smiley unity and mutuality” to the need to display Christlikeness.

    Complementarianism always works. It’s either heavenly unity or our opportunity to share in the suffering of Christ. See?

  40. “Yes and people actually pay him for advice to live in a trailer. Ironic, huh?”

    Cruel advice.

    He did a radio program with an interesting title- “When The CPS Comes For Your Children”. I listened out of curiosity and, although it took a while to get to, I finally heard him refer to “disciplining” kids and how parents need to be smart…gave suggestions such as– be nice to your neighbors, don’t be isolationists, be friendly, give no reason for suspiscion, remember- all madatory reporters are unpaid Orwellian volunteers for the CPS so for heaven’s sake do not hit/discipline/yell at your kids out in the driveway…wait until you are in the sanctity of your home, take particular care when in doctor and dentit’s offices because people are always watchiing, and most importantly–find a family physician that views child rearing the same as you do. That is something Swanson deems of utmost importance. Can’t have the physicians suspicious of child abuse. Make sure your family phusician agrees with how you train up yor child. Just sick stuff.
    https://generationswithvision.com/broadcast/when-cps-comes-for-your-children/

  41. Yes…she did mention the word- redemptive…

    The unfortunate women out there who do not have the great husband like she does gets an unhappy field. Somehow God is pleased with that. 🙁

  42. I love how the quote from Mary K at the beginning says that complementarianism doesn’t have to mean “completely foregoing a career.”

    Please notice the word “completely.”

    This micro-example is indicative of the true problem with patriarcy/comp, and indicative of why the true problem is so hard to spot.

    Let’s bounce off that specific example. In a lot of comp families, the belief is that women should quit their jobs when kids come along (or majorly, majorly cut back) while the husband continues to work full-time. There is no thought given to whether some families would work best if the wife continued in her career and the husband stayed home. In that system, a woman is certainly not told that she can NEVER have a career. But her ability to have a career comes with a lot of qualifiers attached that men don’t have (your career must take a backseat for X amount of years if you have children, so you’d better find something non-competitive that you can easily slip in and out of).

    So you can TECHNICALLY say that women aren’t being shooed away from careers in complementarianism. That’s technically true. But their ability to pursue their careers to the best of their God-given ability is changed (and different from a man’s ability) by a system which says that husbands and wives aren’t allowed to work these issues out on a family-by-family basis.

    This is how the bigger picture of complementarianism works. It limits women, but there are easy ways to word comp-ism to make it sound like it isn’t limiting….or isn’t very limiting.

    The many unhappy comp women I have known would probably say otherwise, though.

  43. By the way, my comment isn’t meant to criticize women who feel the desire/need to stay home. I’m simply using that as an illustration to point out how misleading complementarianist WORDING is sometimes when discussing serious issues.

  44. Juniper, I’ve asked that question – what is the role of single women under comp – of complementarians too. Usually it goes unanswered. Twice it was “answered” by a link to the same John Piper article.
    His article say that by being single and serving the Lord you show that God’s Kingdom do not grow by biology, but is a spiritual Kingdom. I agree with that article, but it does not answer the question.

  45. ” Its astoundingly Orwellian (in a nice Christian way, of course). SLAVERY IS FREEDOM.”

    Reminds me of Margaret Atwood’s book, The Handmaid’s Tale, where women now have “freedom FROM” which is, according to those in power, much better than “freedom TO.”

  46. Searching, I agree with Deb, I love the way you write your observations. When I can go “ya, just like that!” and “ya, exactly!” all through a post, I see a gift in that commenter.

  47. For the record, I posted this comment on http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/09/04/complementarianism-for-dummies/?comments#commentscomment-38619 on September 6, 2012 at 11:32 AM

    Mary Kassian says,

    “If you hear someone tell you that complementarity means you have to… tolerate abuse,… don’t believe her. That’s a straw (wo)man misrepresentation. It’s not complementarianism.

    I should know. I’m a complementarian. And I helped coin the term.”

    *******

    Ok, so we don’t believe “her” when she says such things. But do we believe a man when he him say such things?

    I would just love to hear Mary respond to the fact that a primary coiner of the term (to whom she was a helper) has said that complementarian does, in fact, mean tolerating abuse that physically injures for a night.

    It is apparent he gets a pass to say such things. He has some kind of (napoleonic) superauthority that enables him to escape public accountability from his peers.

    Or, perhaps too much mess has been created in the attempt to define complementarity, which seems entirely resistant to such a process. And it’s just too messy to “go there”. My read is that the tidiest solution, therefore, has been deemed to appoint a miniSTRESS of propaganda to see if she can smooth it all over.

  48. Hey

    Here’s a video of the Gospel Coalition trying to get a new amendment passed

    And added to the Bible – Complementarianism (link)

    Seems the NO”S were louder and they had to take three votes.

    The NO”s were still louder but they added the new amendment to their “I believes” anyway.

  49. @ Diane:

    One has to ask, in light of the Biblical command to “walk in the light,” why Swanson has to provide such extensive procedures to cover up, mask and/or hide what’s really going in the home. Perhaps because it can’t stand the “light” of public scrutiny?

    No, that can’t possibly be it.

  50. @ Hester~

    It was also very telling when he and the attny discussing CPS described (with disdain) about how social workers are coming to our doors with their happy, kind and sympathetic faces on. They are charming and friendly and are trying to gain access by saying such things as…we know these are probably rumors which have no bearing– we just need to see the kids for a minute and get this all cleared up, etc. IOW-deceiving.

    Kind of like the very same “put on your friendly face and fake out the neighbors” advice Swanson and the attny gave to their audience when dealing with those pesky unpaid Orwellian mandatory informant/reporters (one’s neighbors). The CPS cannot act a certain way, but Swanson can.

  51. Hester – oh, it gets much worse. Stasi Eldredge (weird spelling of 1st name – not a typo) gave an interview to Christianity Today when “Captivating” 1st came out that was just beyond belief. She uses “we” when speaking of women, as if she’s speaking for all women. (Not!!!!)

    I’ve only read short excerpts from the book (too nausea-inducing for more than that), but one of her big things is imagining herself as Sacajawea, “Indian princess.” She clearly forgot to read anything factual about Sacajawea, ’cause that characterization is so un-historical it makes me want to weep.

  52. Hester –

    He apparently doesn’t believe that “governments” are appointed by God and have a purpose — one being to keep children safe. If you have to hide what you are doing from a “worldly” system, what makes him think that what he does in secret is acceptable to God? Seems backwards to me.

  53. as a pesky unpaid Orwellian mandatory informant/reporter AND a happy, kind, sympathetic face that works for DCFS (CPS in a certain state), all I have to say is this:

    Your fearmongering and fleeing and teaching others to fear and flee is very telling of what kind of a person you really are. And I’ll give you a hint.

    Proverbs 28:1 The wicked flee when no one is pursuing, But the righteous are as bold as a lion.

  54. Hester – you also missed S. Eldredge’s insane little section on how we should imagine ourselves as Rose in “Titanic” with Jesus standing in for the Leo Di Caprio character.

    I think this would have appealed to me when I was 14, maybe… but maybe not, either. And it actually goes downhill even further than the 2 examples I mentioned, because she and her husband proceed to tell us what all women want/need/are.

    One of their major points: we need to be pursued by men.

    There is nothing, afaik, that even begins to hint at men and women being remotely equal.

  55. @ Mara:

    Sorry if I offended. I did go back and read your series. Like I said, I only had the book for a limited amount of time and I didn’t read much of it, but what I did read sounded (to me) like more of the same pink-and-blue false gender dichotomy. And I totally agree with you that his premise (men created in one place and women in another) is completely false.

    In your post “A Deeper Magic,” you mentioned that Eldredge connects well with men. Now that may be true; not being a man, I wouldn’t know. But is it possible that he perhaps did better with the men’s part of the book than the women’s? Because what I read in the introduction, and what I’ve read about the other parts of the book, made women sound so fundamentally (to use your phrase) “tame.” We are just tame, pretty little creatures who want to live our tame little domestic lives and be rescued and protected by men. At worst, what I remember from the introduction almost made women sound fundamentally vain and shallow (since we want everyone to look at us and our pretty things). Now this may not be what he meant, but like I said, I didn’t read the whole thing.

    I think you may have got to the heart of it with the “Save Men from the Evil Feminine” post (though I couldn’t get to the original post you were referencing as the link was dead). Since Eldredge’s chosen male-female dichotomy is wildness vs. domesticity, and if he really does define the confining structures for men as culture/civilization, then he may conclude that anything that confines/inhibits/”tames” a man is “feminizing” – i.e. men are “feminized” any time they are forced into a cultural structure that violates their inherent “wildness.” Women, presumably, are not harmed by these structures since we are fundamentally tame/confined/domestic.

    These are just my thoughts. I hope that all made sense.

  56. They talk a big talk abut defying the evil gubmint.

    Yet, teach their followers to assume a “role” of niceness and openness and friendliness (calling it being the gospel) to their neighbors in order to not arouse suspicion. What if certain people are just not friendly and are angry and grumpy most of the time? And what if they are not too interested in being bffs with the neighbors? Swanson is telling you to play a role…’cause the neighbors are watching. Paranoid much? Why would that be…

    Just incredible.

  57. Numo –

    Boy, I wish people would stop talking for me, too! Pretty pompous of anyone to presume to speak for “all” women or “all” men with a “we.” UGH!

  58. @ Bridget and Mara:

    Rant alert! Buckle up…

    People like Swanson and his ilk – patriarchal Reconstructionist homeschoolers, essentially, almost always Libertarian – specialize in instilling fear in their audiences. Social workers, teachers, and all other mandated reporters are EVIL. They hate homeschooling, homeschoolers, spankers and Christians (which are usu. all treated as synonyms) with a PASSION and are looking for ANY opportunity to turn you in to the SECULAR GUBMINT.

    I don’t know how many homeschool parents I’ve met who are actually, on some level, afraid of the teacher conducting their curriculum review at the end of the year. “What if they turn me in? What if they ask me XYZ question?” etc. Turn you in for what?! Have you committed a crime by teaching your child how to spell? Last time I checked, homeschooling was legal in all 50 states.

    As for Swanson’s assertion that your doctor needs to agree with you about spanking – if your version of “spanking” leaves marks that are still visible by the time the kid gets to the doctor, then you ARE abusing your child and you SHOULD be reported to CPS.

    And Bridget – I think Swanson does believe that governments are appointed by God and have a purpose. He probably just limits it to the sword and taxes ala Romans 13. Of course, if he’d read Romans 13 more closely, he would have realized that his advice to circumvent and hide from the system flatly contradicts Paul, and might tell us more then he intended about the behavior he is advocating:

    “For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also conscience’ sake.”

    Are you afraid that the authority will take “vengeance” on you for what you did to your children? Well, according to Paul – maybe you should be! And as for secrecy, we know God will make all things known on Judgment Day, so why does Swanson think he’s going to get away with anything? Ever?

    Rant over.

  59. @ Diane:

    “Swanson is telling you to play a role…’cause the neighbors are watching.”

    It’s also referred to as lying.

  60. Dana said: Complementarianism always works. It’s either heavenly unity or our opportunity to share in the suffering of Christ. See?

    BINGO! This thread is creating very negative emotional responses in me. I better be careful. This is the kind of day that I need to wait 24 hrs before posting. LOL

  61. Hester: regarding your lying word or another one is cover-up. I’m reminded of how the sex offender in my case was “sheltered” at a relative’s house. We’re they hiding him for some reason? Hmmm.

    HSLDA (Homeschool Legal Defense Assoc) used to give advice on how to “protect” yourself if you used corporal punishment on your children.

  62. Hester, you didn’t offend. And, as I mentioned before, I never read Captivating.
    Even so, I have met several women who have been helped by Wild at Heart when looking at it to get free from restrictive legalism. Somehow, the Holy Spirit was able to use that book in spite of the Pink and Blue emphasis that we seemed to have missed going through it.

    I really did see it as a call to me to break off restrictive ideas of what God wanted for me. And I’ve met at least half a dozen other women who got the same thing from it.

    Crazy, I know.

    And in addition, a good friend of mine was helped by Captivating because she had been so devastated first by her father and then her husband concerning her own self-worth, Captivating made her see that God saw her as valuable, extremely valuable, and even precious, which is what she needed.

    I totally agree with you and numo (?) that the Pink and Blue aspects of the book are deeply troubling and that I disagree with that aspect. Especially since I’ve seen where other men have taken it, to a far worse place than I believe the Eldredges ever wanted it to go. But even though the Eldredges never meant for it to go this far, they need to be made aware that their premise IS faulty and that the various end results that others have taken it CAN be traced back to their faulty premise.

    The only reason I’m even talking about it, really, is that my friend who was helped by Captivating also reads and comments here and I wanted to make room for her view if she drops in and sees this discusion and help others to be sensetive that yes, even though there are wrong things about the books, there are also helpful things that the Holy Spirit HAS used to help women.

  63. Also, this Mandatory Reporter, DCFS worker used to be a stay at home, home school mom. So I’ve seen both sides. The crazy amount of prejudice and fear of the other side does exist on BOTH sides.

  64. Mara – I do think that some of the things John and Stasi Eldredge write about are very real problems.

    But their explanations and solutions are where we part company. Especially in their essentialist ( I think this is the right term) view of men and women. It’s almost as if men and women were different species!

    J.E.’s view of men like Mr. Rodgers + his emphasis on seeing himself as a character from the movie “Braveheart” makes me think that… he is in need of some emotional maturation himself.

    I know I sound harsh, but it’s like he and his wife are using warmed-over Robert Bly quotes (of “Iron John” fame) and somehow “baptizing” them with Christianese language.

    Bly has some good points, too… but again, I disagree on his ideas about solutions.

    And it strikes me as disingenuous in the extreme for the Eldredges to dodge the question of the influence of other authors.

  65. Reading along, here….

    numo, you don’t sound harsh. Unflowery, unsugary, and to the point. Take that concern off your mental list (as far as I’m concerned).

    I feel it’s more appropriate to be upfront and to the point than to dance around the point with niceness. I don’t think people are quite that delicate (most, at least). And I think most people appreciate frankness as opposed to being treated like a fragile porcelain tea cup.

    And I think people who put themselves in the public arena (via writing, speaking, music, art, dance, etc.) expect to be tried in the court of public opinion. It is wholly appropriate.

    (meanness is never appropriate, but I think the christian’s way of coddling by way of cushy communication — sorry — has led to mistaking frankness and directness for meanness.)

  66. Elastigirl –

    Your frankness (if ever) has never been labeled as mean like mine has (maybe because I am a woman and women are not supposed to be frank?) has it?

    Frankness seems to be one of those acceptable and desired traits in men, but a woman’s frankness is oftentimes considered the unforgivable sin! (insert eye roll)

  67. Hmmm…. Mary Kassian seems to be making a pretty darn good living by selling her agenda. She’s been able to monetize something that she “helped coin”. She’s got it part right, she’s making coin by telling women to stay at home, home school, submit and obey your husband and all the other nasty stuff that goes with complementarianism (which my spell check doesn’t recognize as a word). Meanwhile, she gets travel around the world, speak at conferences to an adoring crowds and reap the benefits of speaking fees and has significantly more “freedom” than what she is selling. She’s also significantly higher educated than what the vast majority of women in a complementary relationship could ever achieve – especially considering that college degrees for women are not something that is pushed. OK, aside from going to a local college and studying education or home economics – I have heard more than one of these types say that a college education for a female was a waste of time and money since they will just be staying at home with kids. Mary Kassian has built a pretty good little career for herself by telling other women what to think and how to act.

    Looks to me like a case of do as I say not as I do…..

  68. Juniper said: “In an egalitarian system, I can seek to use my gifts wherever I can or wherever there’s a need. In a complementarian system, er, where would that be?”

    Now now, Juniper, didn’t you watch the video? You are free to run (just not in public, in private, preferably after dark so that the men won’t be tempted by your sinful bouncing bosoms), free to minister (to other easily deceived women and naive children, not men of course), free to use your gifts (in the proper spheres of unauthoritative influence, you may be able to sing hymns but read Scripture aloud, HECKS no) If teaching isn’t your strength, you can get the coffee brewing after the service! As long as you do it submissively, of course. Make sure you ask a man what brand of coffee to get (Folgers starts with an “F” for feminine, oh gosh we can’t have that… better make it Maxwell House.)

    Really, what do you have to complain about?

    Argo said: “Welcome to the surreal world of neo-reformed doctrine.”

    I’m all too familiar with that particular world.. I’ve spent the past x number of years detoxing from it. I’m happy to be at this end of my journey through the Slough of Despond.

    JJ said: “These complementarians shift between placing every part of human behaviour within the frame of complementarianism – defining what is and isn’t allowed – and the other extreme of nebulous suggestions. Perhaps Kassian can’t specify what it looks like because…hang on, it’s completely made up!”

    What I see is a lack of honesty. None of them have the cojones to admit to the logical conclusion of their belief system: Men are the more ‘godlike’ image bearers of God, women are the less ‘godlike’ image bearers of God. Women must submit to Men because Men are inherently better, braver, smarter, more spiritual, more discerning, etc. etc. etc.

    Instead, they dress it up, water it down, smooth it over, neither confirm nor deny what the heck they are actually talking about… it’s all smoke and mirrors. Nodding and smiling and using words like “MUTUALITY” to describe a lifestyle that is in essence, bondage.

  69. Addenum: When I say “None of them have the cojones”, I mean the more moderate mainstream types. The fringe crazies, such as the Bayly Bros & Doug Wilson, have all but said that men are the more godlike versions of humanity.

  70. Searching
    Thank you for making me laugh. “Now now, Juniper, didn’t you watch the video? You are free to run (just not in public, in private, preferably after dark so that the men won’t be tempted by your sinful bouncing bosoms),”

  71. And doncha know, the mere fact that this comment section is largely inhabited by women would be enough for many of them to write us off as heretics carte blanche. Rebellious feminazis that we are.

    Dee, you really should make a “Church of Wartburg Officially Whitewashed Feminist” certificate.

  72. Speaking of comments sections, notice that Mary K is absent from the TGC one. Afraid of too much attention, as the Wilson Bros. got for their Polluted Waters?

  73. bridget,

    my blog comments “with frankness” have never been described as mean. They just get deleted.

    However, comments that are truly mean from a certain “dificult lass” who towes the party line seem to have sticking power on patriarchal blogs.

    Aside from said lass, yes, a blue but not pink way to behave. However, i’m pretty sure seeds of cultural change already germinating will bring some fix to this. May take a generation. So perhaps my granddaughters will be able to be frank and direct and it will be taken as such.

  74. Elastigirl

    The “lass” to whom you refer is one of the most bizarre, scary people on those blogs. I think they keep her around because she would chop off their vital organs if they told her to stifle. One guy visited our blog and said he tried to politely disagree with her and he barely survived with his manhood intact!

  75. This is tangential, but related, I think. There is a great post–and a very enlightening comment thread–here: http://gracefortheroad.com/2012/02/03/idontwait/

    It’s about “True Love Waits”, purity rings, and the plight of single female Christians who are rapidly aging out of the Young Singles and the identity/spiritual crisis that it has brought. It is fascinating, and heartbreaking, and encouraging in its own ways.

    I think many people from WW would have a lot to contribute.

  76. Elastigirl, The “difficult lass” was the inspiration for my moniker “Appalled”! Acre has now inspired me to maybe switch to “Non-Leadership Congregant Y” (with delusions of Kingship). See prior Piper post.
    Speaking pf seeds and germinating, i spent most of yesterday out in gardens, along with two toddlers for whom I am a primary nurturer/carerer. First we appreciated flowers in a professional garden, then I pulled up “thorns and thistles” from our own. We’re these blue, or pink activities? Mara mentioned, “Men are made outside the garden” garbage:” One could go crazy thinking about some of this stuff. Was Adam just trying to return to his wild roots when he ate the Apple and got cast “back” out into the wilderness? Was he being true to his blue calling?

  77. Dave A A / Non-Leadership Congregant Y,

    Yes, crazy. The level of over-analyzing is ridiculous. Leisure really gone bad. I say we all be human beings with much in common and a bit not in common, and just get on with the business of simply treating people the way we want to be treated and leaving the world a kinder, cleaner place because we were here.

  78. elastigirl – hey, thanks!

    I was taken to task on an xtian arts forum for being “aggressive.” at the time, I was one of less than 10 women posting there with any regularity.

    i upset some people with my bluntness on the Eldredges, among other things…

    fwiw, I also think that the Eldredges’ “paradigms” are meant for white middle-upper middle class people. Most people in this world are just trying to survive and care for their families – they don’t have time for all this inane role-playing fantasy garbage!

  79. Mary Kassian bothers me on so many levels.

    If you read enough of her articles on ‘girls gone wise’, and of course other sources she speaks of most women in such nasty terms. She also tends to talk down to her own readers. I never understood WHY she was so popular to so many just on that level alone. Who in heaven’s name likes to be talked down too?

    She is a mouthpiece that plays the game for a bunch of men, and they let her have a bit more of the ‘leadership’ in return. It seems her box and field as she mentioned is bigger than she would offer to others.

    Its strange how she can speak so ‘sweetly’ to the interviewer, and speaks of the glass ceiling with her movement (of course she calls it something else) that has hurt her in the past. How it has hurt all women, etc. Yet she has no issue telling most women they are the cast from ‘sex in the city’, and ‘Murphy Brown’ in her speeches and literature from a past ‘true woman’ conference. She speaks of men not being so ‘nice’ to her, and how other men ‘bless’ her. She herself as the no so nice part down pat most of the time, but I guess she can play the ‘nice’ for the camera huh?

    I think she is a fake personally. I don’t think she is a very nice person at heart, and is in fact bitter. Her writing style screams it. She rolls out the same garage in every piece, and tells the world how lovely her box is – how it can be good for you too. lol then name calls when you don’t see it her way. Her stuff is so predictable.

    I believe she is putting on the show for the income. No doubt she is the bread winner. The conferences, books, websites, etc? That must be how she serves her husband.

    Bleck.

  80. Hannah T,

    I have NEVER been impressed with Mary Kassian.  She’s jus a mouthpiece. 

    I still can’t believe she was the keynote speaker several years ago at a women’s conference in our area. No doubt some of my friends attended and were influenced by her.  Bheck!

  81. Reading her blog about the subject at hand was too much for me. I haven’t been able to bring myself to listen to the video. From the feedback above, it probably isn’t worth my time.

  82. numo,

    Yes, most people do not have time to overanalyze the meaning of their gender. They are busy surviving, as you say. Indeed, this is the product of leisure gone very bad. Brought to you by professional pontificators who have enough of a surplus of time to invent gender pi and attempt to calculate it to infinity.

  83. JJ – “Just the other day I felt I had to comment on a friend’s facebook status about this. She’s a few years younger than I am – we know each other through a church we were in as children. She’d asked for advice on how young women could draw the line between being successful and educated, while still enjoying the ‘fruit of submission’ and being feminine.”

    That’s just a heartbreaking question to read. The idea that there is a tradeoff between education/success/intelligence and being feminine is incredibly damaging and demeaning to men and women alike. I hope you’re able to gently encourage her that her gifts are from God, that education and success are things to accept with grace and gratefulness, and that she shouldn’t be made to feel she has to choose between these two ideas of success and femininity.

  84. Frustrating……Frustrating…..Frustrating….

    Who in the world is Owen Strachan? Just a guy with a father in law and a degree.

    Who is JT? Someone who was Piper’s helper who eventually got around to getting a degree.

    Oh my……It used to be that in order to have influence in the kingdom you needed to have suffered well…I.e. Paul, Athanasius, Wurmbrandt, etc…..now all you need is a connection and a degree. When will we learn that knowledge puffs up. We have so many arrogant inexperienced people runninf around pontificating on issues they have no business doing so on. WTF?

  85. “Complementarianism always works. It’s either heavenly unity or our opportunity to share in the suffering of Christ. See?”

    Could anyone give my quotes whereby comps say that the woman who suffers under complementarianism “shares in the suffering of Christ?”

    If they do, I want to write a blog entry about it.

    You cannot say: The man is Christ in the picture, the woman the church, and if the man makes the woman suffer, the woman is sharing in the suffering of Christ. If the first metaphor was true, then Christ is making her suffer for his benefit.

  86. sincere,

    Excellent comment!  I have had those same thoughts.  In the Calvinista crowd, it’s who you know. 

  87. @ Pam:

    “The idea that there is a tradeoff between education/success/intelligence and being feminine is incredibly damaging and demeaning to men and women alike.”

    I know a homeschool dad who actually apologized to his daughters for striving to give them a good education, because he’d be “making them choose” between a career and a family.

  88. @ Bad Dog:

    I read that article and the comments. I agree with her point about being satisfied in Christ and not needing a husband to be complete, but I was disappointed how many female commenters, even if they said they weren’t “waiting” anymore, still seemed to be subtly in the mindset that God would deliver the one perfect man gift-wrapped to their door, with no effort on their part except prayer. It’s as if a woman actively going out and looking for a husband is still somewhat uncouth. I mean, I’m glad they’ve learned to put Jesus first and stop obsessing about marriage, but that “passivity” mindset was still there, IMO.

    Now I’m single, I believe in abstinence until marriage, and I do plan to get married. I also believe God brings people together, so yes, praying for a husband is perfectly appropriate. However, I don’t believe that we each have a “soulmate” out there waiting for us (i.e., only one person we could possibly be happy with), and I’m under no misconceptions that if I want to get married, I will have to actively LOOK for a husband. I can’t just sit around home and pray and expect him to fall out of the sky.

  89. Retha

    I have not yet heard that but i will see if I can find it. The closest thing that I know was Paige Patterson who sent a woman back into a physically abusive hime. When she returned with two black eyes he told her that she should rejoice because her husband showed up at church.We wrote about this on our blog.

  90. @ Hester

    That sort of stuff makes me very ranty. *deep breaths, deep breaths* Does he realise how much a disservice such comments and ideas are to his children? There’s already enough damaging messages fed to girls that devalue education and intelligence. I went to an academically selective girls’ high school (you have to do an entrance test to get in), I was surrounded by really smart girls, but I still saw many girls in my own year who’d tone down or turn off their intelligence and ability once they got outside the school gates because of that social message that being nerdy is uncool and undesirable, especially in girls. It was really sad seeing these very bright and strong-willed girls act, frankly, like bimbos so that their peers outside our school would see them as acceptable. But naively doing that so that the 15 year old boy at the school down the road will like you and not think you’re weird is one thing. Having a father so bluntly and explicitly give his own daughters that message? Does he even realise what message he’s giving to his kids? Does he realise how that sort of message can screw up a kid’s confidence and self-belief?

    And thinking about the most inspiring women I’ve known in my life (all bar my mum are Christian), they don’t fit these idealised moulds at all. Both my grandmothers worked, my dad’s mum completed high school at a time when few boys were still at school past the age of 13 and then worked as a teacher, travelling around small towns, an unmarried woman in her 20s in the 1930s. My mum’s mum worked to help support their working class family, and then was involved with helping charities right up until she had to be put in a nursing home due to dementia (she still wanted to help the Guide Dogs Association, even when she’d forgotten who most of her family – including my mum – were, she was that selfless). And another friend, Wendy, was such a gracious and Christlike woman that at her funeral the church was overflowing with people. She was a social worker, and one of the stories told at her funeral was of her taking her eldest child, barely more than a newborn, with her as she went to visit a client. The client’s dog tried to jump up on her baby, and Wendy’s comment was simply ‘well, you’ll have to get used to this, because this’ll be your life’. Her family would take in people who were in need of accommodation, provided food and goods to people in need, set up bible studies in a few communities, and brought so many people to Christ. She didn’t choose between a career and family. She did both, and in doing both she was one of the most incredible people I’ve ever had the privilege to know (I’m getting teary typing this remembering her!). So when I read or hear of anyone suggesting that education and family/roles/’femininity’ are a trade-off, I tend to get angry and frustrated. But I also get sad, because it makes me think that the people who make such comments haven’t had the privilege to know people like my two grandmothers, or my friend Wendy. And because of that they’ve missed out on some amazing people.

  91. Is Steven Tracy really a complemenatrian? I don’t think the comp crowd likes him very much. I remember hearing how TFT$ crowd didn’t really like his perspective, but they just dealt with it.

    I am so tired of the self appointed papists. At least the RCC selects one through a vote.

  92. sincere –

    Steve Tracy self-identifies as a complementarian. He and Celestia partnered with an egalitarian couple to write a book about marriage from both points of view.

    I do think that he really is a complementarian, although I do understand why one would question it. I didn’t know the TFT$ crowd didn’t approve of his version of complementarianism. That’s interesting.

  93. Whether or not Steven Tracy identifies as a complementarian makes little difference to me, I believe his ministry (Mending the Heart) is wonderful. I myself have been very comforted and empowered by his books and articles.

    It doesn’t surprise me that the TFT$ crowd doesn’t like him much, he doesn’t mention authority or submission enough. His focus is on justice and mercy and protection and healing for the vulnerable and wounded. He also admits to his own failings as a Pastor, they won’t like that… Pastors are never wrong, don’tchaknow.

  94. Searching –

    This is a pastor I would like:

    “He also admits to his own failings as a Pastor, they won’t like that…”

    Yes — I know. They are never wrong, because they can do “all things” better.

  95. I totally agree with you on Steve Tracy. I’m from the Phoenix area and I have gone to hear him preach and I also know several people involved in his MTS ministry. He and Celestia are wonderful.

  96. I know a homeschool dad who actually apologized to his daughters for striving to give them a good education, because he’d be “making them choose” between a career and a family. — Hester

    You have just explained why a 56-year-old, never-married ex-kid genius moons over pictures and footage of a certain nerd of a purple unicorn mare from Ponyville Library.

    …and I’m under no misconceptions that if I want to get married, I will have to actively LOOK for a husband. I can’t just sit around home and pray and expect him to fall out of the sky. — Hester

    You haven’t been listening to all those Christian Testimonies about “how God Gave Me My Wife/Husband”, have you? They all sound alike, to the point the Testimony-givers must compare notes behind the scenes. According to them, you DO just sit around home and pray and he/she just shows up at your doorstep. Like God gives His Little Pets everything on a silver platter while the rest of us have to grub for matches.

  97. @ Dana:

    Weird site there. I’d definitely be interested in hearing his wife’s side. If he is indeed an abuser, that whole site is a pretty classic example of blame deflection. I also love how he insists that all his wife has as evidence are her own assertions, which is hearsay, yet all he gives us as evidence are HIS assertions, which are…(drum roll please)…hearsay. He also never seems to have posted the details of his wife’s abuse charges, though he said he was going to; and since the last article was dated from the middle of last year, I assume he never will. How convenient. (And of course, if you disagree with him about psychology, you are antichrist and going to hell.)

    I also love how he says on another page that the “Modern Era” began in 1450 and started the process of “de-Christianizing our world by replacing Biblical truth with ‘human reason'”…

    1) The whole world has never been totally Christianized, so how can it be de-Christianized?
    2) Forgive me, but I don’t remember anything that special occurring in 1450.
    3) I assume that Mr. Mostrom believes that medieval thought is based upon “Biblical truth” and is thus good. Most real advances in science occurred after 1450. Does this mean science is inherently anti-Biblical?

    There was also somewhere where he claimed he was going to distinguish between “real abuse” and “corrective physical/verbal actions taken in self-defense.” Details on said differences? Nope. I guess that never got posted either.

  98. Frustrating……Frustrating…..Frustrating….

    Who in the world is Owen Strachan? Just a guy with a father in law and a degree.

    Who is JT? Someone who was Piper’s helper who eventually got around to getting a degree.

    Oh my……It used to be that in order to have influence in the kingdom you needed to have suffered well…I.e. Paul, Athanasius, Wurmbrandt, etc…..now all you need is a connection and a degree. When will we learn that knowledge puffs up. We have so many arrogant inexperienced people runninf around pontificating on issues they have no business doing so on. WTF?”

    Sincere, You have nailed it. But the real question is why are so many people reading and listening to them? That is even scarier.

    The fact that Bruce Ware is STrachen’s father in law who is such a mentor to him only makes him suspect. Ware of ESS fame. Ware of editing quotes of early church fathers to prop up the ESS heresy. Ware of “women who are unsubmissive trigger abuse” doctrine. Perhaps he teaches him that concerning his own daughter.

  99. Hester –

    Yep. Considering all the people/institutions that will not even talk to him, it seems that any familiarity with the situation motivates one to help the wife get out.

    He seems to be a bit put out that his youth pastor recommended her as a suitable ministry wife and then she didn’t submit to his “leading”. Wow.

  100. @ HUG:

    “You haven’t been listening to all those Christian Testimonies about ‘how God Gave Me My Wife/Husband,’ have you?”

    Oh sure, heard plenty of ’em. And speaking of marriage testimonies: wanna hear the worst one EVER? I have it right here, in the book Sex, Love and Romance that came with Abeka’s lame IFB health curriculum (which ironically I just located sitting underneath a copy of The Magic of Sex). I have to excerpt it in full. It’s just too good.

    “I surrendered my life to the Lord under a pastor in Florida who is now with the Lord. He was a loving, kind and dedicated man. His wife was a very gracious and lovely wife… This pastor’s wife insisted that she had spurned the attentions (and intentions) of this dashing young preacher and really did not feel any love for him while they were dating. She liked him very much and enjoyed his friendship but did not feel she could marry him.

    He kept insisting that she was the one for him and that God had led them together. She kept praying about it and finally decided that it was, indeed, the will of God for her to marry this man. Yet, she still did not feel affectionate love for him. The more she waited on God, the more sure she was that she was to marry him, that he was the man God had for her as a life’s companion.

    She obeyed the Lord and agreed on a wedding date. As she started down that wedding aisle, she still was not feeling any physical love for the groom, but she was absolutely sure she was doing the right thing. When she said, ‘I do,’ and was swept into his arms, she was overwhelmed with a great surge of love for her husband that never faded until their dying day. …

    Now I certainly would not advise young people to wait until their wedding day to be sure they were in love. But it certainly worked in this case because they loved the Lord even more than they loved each other, and they knew they were in the will of God.

    You can learn to love. Wait on God. Know His will. Be obedient. And He will lead you to the right mate and will bless and enhance your romance.”

    Implications which could be drawn from this story:
    1) If a man says that God told him to marry you (esp. if that man is a pastor), he is always telling the truth and his intentions are always pure. He couldn’t possibly be a pervert using religion to get you into bed (and keep you there with legal strings).
    2) We don’t advocate this approach. Yet we devoted a whole chapter to it in our book for impressionable 9th graders.
    3) True, dedicated Christians will never have any wavering of love in their marriages.

    (Addendum in case anyone thinks I am being too harsh: my best friend’s divorced mom was actually approached by a random guy at a Christian school who told her that he had been dreaming about her and God wanted her to marry him. Thank goodness she blew him off.)

  101. TWW’s twitter account suspended!!!!!!
    Coincidence? After exchanging three benign tweets with Jared C Wilson, our TWW twitter account has been suspended. We will get to the bottom of this and will keep you informed…

  102. Hester,
    Years ago, my current best friend “was actually approached by a random guy at a Christian school who told her that he had been dreaming about her and God wanted her to marry him.” Trying to be fair to her, he did take her out on 2 dates first. Trying to be fair to him, she agreed to pray about it. He waited very patiently for her. After all, she was “The One”, right? Then she got a bit distracted, and fell in love with someone else. She forgot to decline the proposal of “The One” until she’d already accepted an alternate proposal. Did she miss out on God’s will? If so, I’m forever thankful she did.

  103. Hester – oh my. that is one of the worst instances of “God told me to do it” that I’ve ever read. (Outside of ex-gay circles, that is.)

    what if he’s been a bank robber or serial killer?!

    I’ve had the experience of being approached (twice) by a “God told me…” type and it was not fun.

  104. Dana,

    That story is crazy. I have heard that the Tracy”s are a bit of a wild card from others as well. Sometimes they get it right and sometimes they screw up royally. I think in general they do more good than bad, but I have heard from those who attended the Seminary and Grace church that they were a bit shall we say quick to find abuse, even if abuse was not there. I know that is such a sensitive topic and it is rare to find a theologian at all who will even address the issue of abuse. That being said, I kind of liken it to the yellow car syndrome. Let me explain. I have a yellow Hummer (gas guzzler I know, but my husband gave it to me for our20th anniversary) before I had this car I did not think that many people had yellow cars, now that Ihave a yellow car it seems like everyone has a yellow car. Now it could be that the number of yellow cars went up or it could be that I just notice them now. My point is the Tracy”s view everything from a lens of abuse. My friend was having some concern with her husband working so many hours and decided to seek out Celetia”s advice,. Celestia told my friend that she thought her husband was neglecting her , which my friend completely disagrees with. The point is as valuable as recognizing and helping others to heal from abuse is, there is a flip side that NOT everyone suffers abuse. Sometimes you just experience a normal life experience. Sorry for my soapbox, I just though it would make sense to caution folks from accpepting others prognosis if it goes against their own sensibilities. Does that make any sense at all:?

  105. Tucson Sun
    What you say makes sense but it is very difficult to put a finger on when one is “over-finding” abuse.

    The same goes for pedophilia. There have been a few cases when people report it to make a buck in lawsuits. But it is very dangerous to say “All pedophile reports are now suspect” because of those outliers. Some abusive churches then do not deal with pedophiles. There were several examples of this in the SGM debacle.

    The vast majority of things discussed on this blog are real and we go to great lengths to verify stories, etc. It is also true that there is a problem with pedophilia and the church and the church has done an abysmal job dealing with it. The same goes for domestic abuse. One only need to read the account merrily retold by Paige Patterson about sending a woman back into a home to socked around again.

    I know a church in my area in which a pastor was hitting his wife. She took her kids and got out. The church said they would not help her until she returned to her husband. Thankfully her parents stepped in and said, “Hell, no.”

    I would always err on the side of the experts even if they were wrong once or twice. Psychology is not an exact science. But, some training is better than no training. It is also difficult to judge what took place in a confidential counseling session.

    If one ignores the advice of professionals, one stands the risk of allowing terrible harm to come to someone.

  106. Hi Dee,

    Great points. In no way would I make accusations of abuse illegitimate. I am just saying there needs to be balance. I think there can be reverse abuse wife on a husband as well. I would say that the experiences of people on this blog are all very real painful and serious. It was simply my experiences with the Tracy's in particular. That being said, I continue to recommend to various women in our women's ministry group that they should see celestia. My concern is that there can be, even if they are few and far between, of situations where the actual abuser claims abuse as a "get out of jail card". This reminds of of the Scott Peck books on evil. The most evil person is usually so incredibly manipulative. I hope I did not make you feel like I was minimizing abuse. I have. Been in abusive situations and am very sensitive to it.

  107. Tucson
    I love Tucson and hope to be a snow bird there one day-God’s country!
    I do not think you are minimizing. However, there are a couple of people who visit this blog who go after the victims on a regular basis. My comment was more for them than for you.

    Have you been following the Drew Peterson case? Finally, a victim was allowed to speak from the grave and he is going to prison. I loved seeing the “Final Declaration” finally used.

  108. Dana –

    “I would have pointed out to your young friend that we “hold back” and allow others authority when we do, in fact, possess our own. I would also point out that an attitude like that actually expresses a maternal patronizing view of men that I do not approve of. Men are grown-ups and should be treated as such.”

    I agree with you. It’s a prevalent view in the church (and society) that men aren’t responsible for their behaviour. It’s up to women to enable men to assume their full potential. You see it in everything from the modesty obsession to more openly malevolent cases, such as abuse, where a women is blamed because she has not accommodated the man’s ego or desires enough.

  109. Searching-

    “None of them have the cojones to admit to the logical conclusion of their belief system: Men are the more ‘godlike’ image bearers of God, women are the less ‘godlike’ image bearers of God.”

    Yes! This is why I have a problem with ‘soft’ complementarianism. Those people whose marriages are practically based on mutuality and equality, but still hold to complementarianism, simply haven’t followed through on the assumptions of that doctrine. Complementarianism is rotten to the core. The cases of hurt are what happens when complementarianism is taken to its logical conclusion.

    Complementarians don’t see that no matter how nice they are to each other in marriage, the system is still demeaning to women. It sees them as inherently flawed and limits their potential purely on the basis of gender.

  110. Pam –

    Yes, it is heartbreaking to see a young woman even thinking in terms of ‘holding back’ or believing that there’s a trade-off between confidence, education or success and being a proper woman. I did encourage her to consider the very things you mentioned. Sadly, I think she’s quite firmly in the ‘men and women were created for different things and this doesn’t make women inferior’ camp.

    With these kinds of ideas floating about, it’s no wonder that many young women (myself included) find more encouragement of their skills in academia than in the church!

  111. Why is this article being so highly promoted?

    Well, part of it may be similar to the propaganda value of an American serviceman turning to defend their Nazi or Imperial Japanese captors during WWII. “See, even some of your own understand and support us?! What’s wrong with YOU?”

    But, cynical or not, I say FOLLOW THE MONEY!

    Big bucks to be made in the book and conference circuit!

    Instinctively or deliberately, this is good PR.

    And some people gobble up the praise and adulation of the masses as if it were air and water. They crave it and feed on it.

  112. “None of them have the cojones to admit to the logical conclusion of their belief system: Men are the more ‘godlike’ image bearers of God, women are the less ‘godlike’ image bearers of God.”

    Bruce Ware of SBTS (Owen Strachan's father in law) actually teaches this! Cheryl Schatz has a clip of him teaching this on her women in minstry DVD. Ware claimed that 'man was created in the DIRECT image of God and the woman is a derivative'." I kid you not. I think he missed Gen 1.

  113. Tucson,

    You said,

    My friend was having some concern with her husband working so many hours and decided to seek out Celetia”s advice,. Celestia told my friend that she thought her husband was neglecting her , which my friend completely disagrees with.

    Celestia did not say the husband was abusing her. She said the husband was neglecting her. Sounds to me like your friend was in denial. Odd to seek out counseling because your husband is working so many hours and then deny the neglect that proceeds out of it…

    I went and looked at that link Dana posted and the husband (who wrote the blog) is clearly abusive. Red flags all over the place in how he speaks about the situation.

    Respectfully,
    Charis

  114. (Addendum in case anyone thinks I am being too harsh: my best friend’s divorced mom was actually approached by a random guy at a Christian school who told her that he had been dreaming about her and God wanted her to marry him. Thank goodness she blew him off.) — Hester

    JMJ over at Christian Monist did some time in the Navigators. He gave accounts of what happened when you got a good-looking Nav girl on the scene. (Understand, the Navigators were SO Christian, SO Spiritual, SO Scriptural that they required you to deny any physical attraction whatsoever as Ungodly. Scripture Scripture Scripture! Witness Witness Witness! Work for the Night is coming!) The way to get a Nav chick was to BS her with a Spiritual line about how “God Hath Revealed Unto Me that…” This resulted in a very-quick “courtship” and marriage. (Usually the hubby with the BS became a pastor or missionary, someone in authority.)

    The marriages usually disintegrated a few years later, usually announced by “SATAN Hath Entered into My Wife…” when the wife filed for divorce and never looked back.

    I was reminded of what I heard from a Wiccan once, about why she didn’t do love spells or love potions. “To force someone to fall in love with you forces and tampers with the emotions on a very deep level. It’s not going to last, and when the spell finally breaks there’s going to be a reaction — flipping from total adoration to total hatred.” Substituting Christianese terminology for the Wiccan, this is what those Nav guys did. “Christian Witchcraft”, high-pressuring the girl to marry them as a Cosmic-level fait accompli, to be disobeyed on pain of Disobeying GOD. They cast Christianese Love Magick, and got the reaction when their spell eventually wore off.

  115. Anon 1,

    Keep preaching it!  Have you ever read Wade Burleson’s post And What Is It About Patriarchy That Scares Us?

    When Wade wrote this post back in April 2008, I had never heard of him.  I was living in my little Christian bubble, happy as a clam. 

    It was about a half a year later that Dee and I began to get what has come to be known as the Wartburg Tingle, giving us the feeling that there was something terribly amiss in Christendom.   We started reading Wade’s blog religiously and doing an incredible amount of research.  By March 2009 we began The Wartburg Watch, and we’ve never looked back.  We had no idea that we would ever meet Wade (and his lovely wife Rachelle) and feature his sermons in this forum.

    I do hope Christians are waking up to the perils of patriarchy. 

  116. @ Deb:

    What an excellent article by Wade. Sums up most of the issues succinctly and with no wiggle room for doubters. There are many doubters, though I still can’t figure out why – you can only hide a dead body under the floor for so long before it starts to stink. A lot.

    “This theological belief, according to Cindy, causes some patriarchists to believe in ‘the priesthood of believers,’ but not the priesthood of every believer. Due to man bearing directly the image of God, the husband must be the priest of his wife, and the father of his daughter, for it is the prayers and leadership of the man that ‘sanctify’ the female. In short, only men, according the logical extension of some who hold to Ware’s theology, can be priests unto God. This is why a woman who attempts to pray, teach, lead, or display spiritual authority ‘in the presence of men’ is forbidden to do so by some patriarchists.”

    Patriarchs are heretics. That’s it. They’ve added mediators between women and Jesus and thus denied the Gospel AND Christ. No matter how hard I try, that’s all I can get out of that. They are CLEARLY following a different Jesus.

  117. The Sydney Anglican Archbishop, Peter Jensen, was tonight one of the guests on a panel discussion show, Q & A. I didn’t see the whole show, but did hear their discussion on women, submission, and homosexuality. I’m too tired now to cover it in detail, and there’ll probably be a more detailed article online tomorrow (the show finished less than an hour ago) but here’s the first bit of reporting about it: http://www.smh.com.au/national/archbishop-backs-acl-stance-on-gay-lifestyle-20120910-25orl.html (to bring people up to speed, the head of the Australian Christian Lobby – who I find almost never speak in my name, but that’s by-the-by – last week went on about the ‘gay lifestyle’ being a health hazard)
    Two other things that are of particular relevance to discussions here at TWW were his responses to questions about domestic violence and suicide. A question was asked about whether teaching submission could contribute to domestic violence – the person who asked was a Christian woman who had spent time working in some other countries that pushed hard on wives being submissive and the rates of domestic violence in those communities were significantly higher. His answer was the usual ‘well those husbands aren’t understanding their roles properly’ stuff. On suicide, one question was from a former Christian who came out at 15 and was cruelly treated by his church to the point of considering suicide. This man asked if Jensen thought that maybe the positions he promotes on homosexuality could contribute to depression and suicide by people dealing with homosexuality. Jensen’s response was detached, saying ‘oh, well some people say that what we promote leads to suicide, but I don’t know, we need to find out what the facts are’. In both cases, the questions were asked by people who had real experiences of what they were asking about, and in both cases Jensen responded with lots of nice sounding word completely lacking in content.
    Yet I have some statuses and discussions on my Facebook feed of people going on about how great Peter was and how he stood up and had a ‘serious discussion’ and blah blah blah. I want to respond to those people, but I know I’d get jumped on for giving in and not standing up for the faith or whatever.

  118. What I always heard that if you are submissive, do what God has called you to do as a mother and a wife (which is the made up rules of so-called Godly men and women) and allow your husband to be the head of the household, then you'll be happy and content because this is God's will.

    Of course it's bs. It's bondage, not freedom in Christ. Now that I have been out of this system for a while, I see the bs that goes along with it all. All of it…

    These so-called Godly men and women who tell people how to live their lives for Christ only bring bondage instead of freedom. It infuriates me. They are not even who they claim to be; yet we should listen to them. It's like I'm on the outside now looking in. It's kind of weird actually because I never thought I'd leave the "system".

  119. I was reminded of what I heard from a Wiccan once, about why she didn’t do love spells or love potions. “To force someone to fall in love with you forces and tampers with the emotions on a very deep level. It’s not going to last, and when the spell finally breaks there’s going to be a reaction — flipping from total adoration to total hatred.”

    Not to mention, other people have free will and they have the right to their free will, so if you really could do that it would be unethical as hell.

  120. JJ said: "Complementarians don’t see that no matter how nice they are to each other in marriage, the system is still demeaning to women. It sees them as inherently flawed and limits their potential purely on the basis of gender." Exactly! In their belief system, women are inferior because they are women. There's no way to escape it; the only 'true' woman is a heterosexual, married, submissive, mother. (Or a single woman with a lot of cash who regurgitates the proper approved doctrine). There's no way 'up', there's no other approved path. In my opinion, the only happy complementarians are the ones who are functionally egalitarian, which begs the question: Why bother with the complementarianism? To be true to the commandments of men?

    Anon 1 said: "Bruce Ware of SBTS (Owen Strachan's father in law) actually teaches this! Cheryl Schatz has a clip of him teaching this on her women in ministry DVD. Ware claimed that 'man was created in the DIRECT image of God and the woman is a derivative'." I kid you not. I think he missed Gen 1." I remember this. It did wonders for me as a teen female. I didn't hate myself at all because of it. Not at all. I was happy to be sub-human. /sarcasm.

    Stormy said: "What I always heard that if you are submissive, do what God has called you to do as a mother and a wife (which is the made up rules of so-called Godly men and women) and allow your husband to be the head of the household, then you’ll be happy and content because this is God’s will. Of course it’s bs. It’s bondage, not freedom in Christ." This relates to what I said earlier, "How could there be anything but one-ness and unity in a home where the man makes all of the decisions, and the wife joyfully submits to his leading? Nothing but harmony and peace when the woman has no voice of her own." These people sell this package deal: God says WOMAN SUBMIT, if you (woman) submit, you will be happy and fulfilled, your husband will be godly and loving, your kids will be happy, your life will be splendid, hurray complementarianism! Sadly, people fall for it.