"These people do not know that while Barak trembled, Deborah saved Israel, that Esther delivered from supreme peril the children of God … Is it not to women that our Lord appeared after His Resurrection? Yes, and the men could then blush for not having sought what the women had found."
Jerome, after criticism for dedicating his books to women
Bruton Parish Church, Historic Williamsburg
(Taken by Deb)
The Barna Group, which has been analyzing cultural trends since 1984, recently focused on Christian women in America and has published its research results. Part 1 of their four-part study asks this question: Are Women Happy in Church?
The Barna article begins as follows:
"Women are the backbone of U.S. Christian churches. They are more likely than men to comprise the ranks of churchgoers, volunteers and Sunday school teachers. Yet, how do women feel about occupying these roles at their church?"
Before we get into the results of the study, you might find these comments (included in the report) interesting:
"David Kinnaman, president of Barna Group, says this study helps to give context to the ongoing debate regarding women’s roles and the Christian community. 'It’s tempting to take the examples of those closest to us as representative of all Christian women today. Yet, the research shows there is an enormous range of experiences for women in today’s churches, from those who are very satisfied to those who feel as if the church is one of the least welcoming places for them to be.' "
About the Research
"The study on which this report is based included telephone surveys with 603 women who are ages 18 or older who describe themselves as Christians and have attended a Christian church service within the past six months (excluding holiday services or special events). These Christian women were randomly chosen from the 48 continental states. The maximum margin of sampling error for a sample of that size is estimated to be within +/- 4.1 percentage points at the 95% confidence level. There are other forms of survey error that cannot be statistically estimated."
According to the research, the majority of Christian women are satisfied with leadership opportunities at their church. Seventy-five percent indicate they are utilizing their gifts and potential in their congregation and that they are involved in meaningful ministry (72%). However, there is a sizable group of women who are frustrated because of the lack of opportunities within their congregations. Furthermore, they feel 'misunderstood and undervalued' by their church leaders. Sadly, the article states:
"About three out of 10 churchgoing women (31%) say they are resigned to low expectations when it comes to church. One fifth feel under-utilized (20%). One sixth say their opportunities at church are limited by their gender (16%). Roughly one out of every eight women feel under-appreciated by their church (13%) and one out of nine believe they are taken for granted (11%). Although these represent small percentages, given that about 70 million Americans qualify as churched adult women, this amounts to millions of women in the U.S. today who feel discouraged by their experiences in churches."
It is extremely unfortunate that the majority of women interviewed (75%) believe they should be doing more to serve God (73%). As a result, there does appear to be a trend of Christian women taking their talents elsewhere (parachurch ministries, for example) to fulfill their yearning to serve their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Here are some additional revelations from the Barna Group:
• More than three quarters of women (78%) disagree that the Bible prohibits them from being leaders in the church.
• Only half of women (47%) say the male leaders in their church are willing to change the rules and structures to give women more leadership opportunities.
• Reflecting some of the challenges women experience in churches, 41% of women say they have more opportunities to lead outside of their church than within their church.
If you have heard of The Resignation of Eve by Jim Henderson, you might be interested to know that George Barna wrote the preface for that book. Here is the catchy subtitle: What If Adam's Rib Is No Longer Willing to be the Church's Backbone?" We hope to be reviewing this book soon here at TWW.
We want to encourage you to read the Barna study for yourself and give us your feedback. While we don't have any idea what the percentages might be, we do know that some Christian women have withdrawn from the organized church and could not have been candidates for this study. How many are represented among the commenters at TWW?
Here's one of our local Christian heroes – Scotty McCreery – performing Gone. Is this what hyper-authoritarian church leaders will be singing when they realize the damage they have done by marginalizing at least fifty percent of Christians?
Lydia's Corner: Genesis 42:18-43:34 Matthew 13:47-14:12 Psalm 18:16-36 Proverbs 4:7-10
I haven’t had time to read the report yet, but those statistics are significant. It isn’t just a couple of ‘troublemakers’. The normal ‘my way or the highway’ approach to the issues surrounding women and the church can’t go on and be successful in keeping people in church, let alone bringing new people in.
I would really love to know how Southern Baptist women feel about this matter. The 2000 BF&M is being used to suppress women’s roles in so many ways. For many women in the SBC they have had to make a difficult choice–not use the gift that God gave them or leave the denomination.
I wish brad/futuristguy would weigh in on this one.
I don’t know, it’s a wonky bunch of numbers – 73% of women feel they are making the most of their gifts and potential at church, and 73% of women feel they can and should be doing more to serve God. I realize those are two different issues, bu they are related.
Not many women seem to struggle with sin or character issues, but in a survey about their lives and church experience they express the most disappointment in themselves for being inefficient and disorganized? Really?
I was interested in the numbers indicating the high priority of family life. I think this is true and I have always had a sneaking suspicion that women like church and like complementarian teaching because they depend on the church to hand them domesticated men and support their family life.
I have attended many women’s Bible studies and taught a few myself. It seems to me that women in these settings are good at giving the “right” answer. They just want to know what it is and be able to hand it over at the right time. Bringing up an unfamiliar subject or one that doesn’t have a pat answer at one of these gatherings will literally immobilize the participants. I was at a Bible study where everyone was chatting along, staying on subject. I simply mentioned feminine metaphors for God and all of them simply locked up. They had never heard of such a thing and had no response to it. When I looked up and read a few to them, they still didn’t know what to say – I assume it was because they had not been instructed on how to respond to such an idea.
Dana,
Your comment made me laugh. Insightful.
Ok, one thing about their research really grinds my gears. When they say “…more than three quarters of women (78%) disagree that the Bible prohibits them from being leaders in the church”, they have asked a loaded question. I don’t think most complementarians are saying that women should not be leaders and the Bible prohibits that. They say that women should not be Pastors. There is a difference. Pastor does not mean leader! You can be a successful pastor in my book if you aren’t a master of Andy Stanley and John Maxwell leadership principles, if you simply love and care for the people under your charge. You can be a highly effective and influential leader in the church if you are a lay person, without needing to seek ordination or credentialing (I would argue that most leaders in the small local congregation are lay persons). This whole “the Bible says women can’t lead” shtick is a non-sequitur to paint anyone with a complementarian leaning as blatantly misogynistic and bending over backwards to keep women down. Get it right! There are plenty of churches who don’t ordain women but allow them at every other position of leadership, making room for their talents and abilities and enabling them for success. THIS IS NOT ABOUT POWER, even if some on both sides try really hard to make it. The theological/hermeneutical debate should be about the pastorate, nothing more. If the Bible says that “women can’t lead,” then the Bible is misogynistic. But it doesn’t. Instead, it tells stories of several women who took positions as leaders in obedience to God. It so happens that none of those women were pastor/elder, even if we had military general, judge, Mother of God, deacon, deaconess, apostle, and catechist on the list. I feel like I’m developing an allergic reaction to red herrings.
The Bible, properly translated and understood, does not specify that women cannot be pastors. More importantly, it does not say that men can be pastors. In general, our concept of pastor is NOT IN THE BIBLE!
@ Dana. I’m gittin’ my questions about their questions ready … and will plan to take a look at their reports later. (Have some work deadlines to finish first.)
Analyzing research statistics is always time consuming, in part because the ways they structure the survey and the ways they structure their questions precondition the answers. For instance, I’ll be looking for details like this:
* When I took social research courses, we were taught to describe the structure of the research carefully and completely, and reveal our biases. So … I’ll be looking for all kinds of assumptions that are (or should have been) revealed, and think about how they potentially affect the results.
So – The Barna Group conducted a phone survey. Were the representatives who conducted the survey men or women or both? That one small detail affects the entire survey. What if the representatives for The Barna Group were men? They’ve assumed that women will talk candidly with men about potential dissatisfaction with church structures, which are, in many denominations, run by … uhh … men. So, is it wise to assume male surveyors would receive unbiased or less biased results from women respondents than women surveyors would? Or would having male surveyors potentially downgrade the entire content of the survey conversation by skewing the results?
* What were the specific questions asked? If I remember from some past Barna reports, they don’t reveal the exact wording of the questions used. (And that seems to be a common practice among people who run such surveys.) So, we don’t know the context for the content. What a difference a question can make, though! For instance …
–> Are you “satisfied” with leadership opportunities for women in your church/denomination?
–> You’re “satisfied” with leadership opportunities for women in your church/denomination, aren’t you?
–> You aren’t “satisfied” with leadership opportunities for women in your church/denomination, are you?
Everything’s got bias to it … trying to get underneath the surface statistics and description is about figuring out whether the bias negates the validity of the research and basically neutralizes what the researchers say the results mean. [“Validity” is about whether the research actually measures what it says it does. “Reliability” is about whether the same survey instrument would get highly similar results if used again.]
More later when I can actually get into the report, but there’s some of my bias about survey set-ups … for what it’s worth.
@ brad/futuristguy – oh good – I’ll be waiting to see what your questions are. But I can be patient.
@ Wade – I’m glad you laughed. Most people just look uncomfortable and start edging away when I say what I’m really thinking.
Dana,
It isn’t just women who are good at giving the ‘right’ answer. During a mens group discussion I questioned the ‘male hero’ role that was being taught, the looks at the table made me realize I must be wrong – the pastors interpetation couldn’t be wrong.
56 years wrote: In general, our concept of pastor is NOT IN THE BIBLE!
Agreed. Not to mention our concept/role of “Pastor’s Wife”. I see surprisingly small percentages of women in the survey feel under-appreciated or taken for granted at church. Wonder what those percentages would be for “Pastor’s Wives”? I know it was a real eye-opener for my wife when I “answered the call” and she got a job for which she never applied, for which she never got paid, which conflicted with her actual gifts and calling, had unwritten and contradictory expectations, and from which she couldn’t resign until I did.
My personal take is that this whole mess started to go downhill when we started thinking of the pastor as being in authority rather than the servant of the church.
We picked up speed going downhill when the pastorate became a respected profession (think career) instead of an office in the church.
Add to the mix women’s lib and lots of men started feeling their jobs were threatened while lots of women started feeling locked out of prestigious careers.
I think we can solve the whole shebang pretty easily. Let’s stop ordaining anyone, just have tasks to be done in the church with those doing them seen as servants of the congregation.
My suspicion is that will weed out a lot of both men and women currently arguing about who can do what.
Hi, Miguel,
I couple thoughts.
–Re: “You can be a highly effective and influential leader in the church if you are a lay person, without needing to seek ordination or credentialing”
Nothing untrue about that. But I would say that a good many people, when they have found something they feel a personal calling to do, a desire to be involved in, that gives them purpose and enjoyment in doing it,…. a good many people who fall into this category want to continue to qualify themselves. To take steps to get further informed, experienced, to EARN what the credentials represent. To develop themselves, with the aim of maximizing what they are capable of. This is natural and healthy for all. It is entirely laudable and desirable for the individual and the group. Yet is oftentimes denied to women, or women are prevented from the whole scope of things. Such as a woman becoming highly qualified yet being given the position of less responsibility and influence in favor of the much less qualified man.
–RE: “There are plenty of churches who don’t ordain women but allow them at every other position of leadership, making room for their talents and abilities and enabling them for success.”
Perhaps in theory, yes. But again, so often there are limitations in the experience of actual reality. Women being given the lesser position, the lesser level of responsibility and influence, the lesser title. Let’s face it, the title publicly supports and legitimizes the person and what they do in the eyes of the members of the organization. It represents how much credence the organization gives to the individual to function on its behalf. A level of endorsement that backs up the person.
On a more subtle level, the exercise of leadership, talents, and abilities is often suppressed by the community at large. Direction given by a woman is begrudgingly received, if not rejected. Chances are, valid comments and ideas from a woman will not be given the same credence as those of a man. Eye contact focussed on the man, and the woman is more ignored. All kinds of subtle things that really do favor the man and dismiss the woman.
It’s tough. Discouraging. Disillusioning. Wears away at resilience. Requires more and more toughness to keep on. It’s tiring.
Discrimination is only really seen & felt by the discriminatees. Barring exceptional empathy.
Dana and Bobson –
Your comments are interesting. I have seen “that” look on people’s faces as well. It begs the question, “Is the Church teaching “roles” or is it teaching what it lookes like to be a believer and follow Christ?” I’m wondering how often Jesus divided up his teachings according to gender, or age for that matter, and how that compares to what the Church does today. I don’t recall Jesus dividing between genders or age much at all, if any. When it comes to age, he seemed partial to, and quite strong about, children having access to him and he spent a lot of time with women.
Why is much of the Church teaching and acting so contrary to Jesus? What is motivating leaders to do what they are doing? I wish they would all, honestly, ask themselves that question and then ask others (not only, or mostly, their close friends) for feedback on what the motivation looks like to them. The motivation should permeate the entire spectrum.
Bridget —
re: “Why is much of the Church teaching and acting so contrary to Jesus? What is motivating leaders to do what they are doing?”
I’d say (1) a preoccupation with “Paul”; (2) a preoccupation with popular christian idealogues who have the mic; (3) a fear of irrelevance; (4) a fear of extinction.
Dana said, “I have attended many women’s Bible studies and taught a few myself. It seems to me that women in these settings are good at giving the “right” answer. They just want to know what it is and be able to hand it over at the right time. Bringing up an unfamiliar subject or one that doesn’t have a pat answer at one of these gatherings will literally immobilize the participants”
This is why I stopped attending both women’s bible studies and Sunday school classes years ago. There’s no such thing as a meaty discussion. You have to stay with the instructor’s outline, and that’s that.
@ 56 years, it depends on what you mean by “our concept.” The modern evangelical stereotype of a power CEO/life coach? Sure, entirely unbiblical. But the word “pastor” is what we use for a person given the Biblical office of “elder,” for which their is significant Biblical support that has always been understood to be reserved for men, until recent times. “Properly understood” maybe according to your view, but the best scholars do not agree here.
@ Linda, amen pastors are to be servants rather than authorities. They should have some authority to do certain things on some levels, like preach, absolve, administer sacraments, etc… but they are not the spiritual micromanaging life coach for every attendee. However, I disagree with your “respected profession” thing. Part of the reason so many pastors are getting beat up and run out of ministry is because their profession is not respected, too many lay persons think it’s their job to know exactly what the pastor ought to be doing for them. It is a legitimate vocation with a divine calling and serious training/prep going into it. We should treat them as professionals in the same way we treat our doctor or mechanic; they know what they’re doing and they’re well qualified to do it. If you don’t like their methods, you just get a new plumber. You don’t harass and browbeat the one you got until he satisfies your every quirk: go to another church if he bothers you. To not ordain anybody, or not set aside anyone for the serious study of scripture essentially says that the teaching of the church is not important enough to make it somebody’s job to get right. The lower a view a church has of its teaching responsibilities, the easier it drifts along wherever the culture leads it. I am personally glad that my pastor went to seminary and is commissioned to serve our parish full time. I wouldn’t turn that loose to an indiscriminate democracy ever, I’ve seen the kind of chaos that brings first hand. It wouldn’t even solve the issue, believe me, people still duke it out. And it is silly to say men reject women’s ordination out of concern for their job security. I don’t think pastors are afraid of an increase in job seekers, unless you are saying that women are automatically superior at this.
@ elastgirl. Nothing wrong with getting certified. In the LCMS, we provide numerous certification options and routes into full time church work for women even though we do not ordain them as Pastors. Because we reserve only one specific thing for men, we actively seek ways to promote and provide opportunity for women in all the other regards, so it is not just in theory. In my particular congregation, women take all kinds of leadership roles. Limitations? We have only one, which is arrived at by scriptural conviction, not chauvinistic cultural assumption. Women in the LCMS may do anything but preach, absolve, and administer the sacraments.
Your description of community suppression is a bit of a wide blanket. We all know this does happen, but in some places more than others. We have one woman in our congregation that feels that way (and openly confides in me about it), the rest of them are actively involved in leadership positions and their input and voices are readily heard. The discrimination she perceives is as real as she thinks. Believe it or not, this thing can be imagined or triggered because of negative prior experience. The voice and opportunity we give to women in our congregation more than proves that we are not being discriminatory towards them.
I understand that many women are going to continue to feel that if the pastorate is not open to them, their parade is being trampled. And I also understand that in many complementarian churches, there are legitimate chauvinists and misogynists distorting their own theology to justify these feelings. But not all complementarians are as John Piper.
If you think the direction of a woman is begrudgingly received, try being a “music pastor” at 22. Nobody wants to listen to a person half their age try to instruct them in singing. People will find any excuse to reject constructive critique, no matter how far you bend over backwards to make it sound positive. Consider some play the gender card simply because its the only one they can find. The heart of man is hopelessly wicked.
Why is being recognized as a women “pastor” so important or being recognized in leadership at all? No one needs to be appointed as a leader to be a leader. A good leader is being an example to others and that is an inspiration for others to do the same. I know women in churches who are wonderful pastoring others (who are not recognized in that position….much more than the lead pastor because they genuinely care and show that care to others. I see them (as well as many others…men and women care for others in such a way that they are the life strength of that church (and don’t care if they are recognized for it)> I think this complementary issue is important, but distracting in that it gets everyone all worked up and venting. In the end isn’t what is most important that we serve God in whatever way he directs us? So what that some man doesn’t recognize a woman for that. Seriously, I’m getting tired of the subject. I do understand there is abuse, but I wonder if its more about someone’s “rights” not being recognized rather than this idea that men in churches are making deliberate decisions to keep women out of leadership. I have been in men dominated churches for years and not once have I seen this kind of abuse or attitudes that I read about here. Isn’t what really matters is what God thinks of each of us in whatever position we find ourselves in and being thankful?
Mike, why do men need to be recognized as leaders? Why have recognized leaders at all?
“I have been in men dominated churches for years and not once have I seen this kind of abuse or attitudes that I read about here.”
Were you looking for it? If it was there, would you have been affected by it?
Miguel,
Your denomination sounds truly great in this respect. My description of community suppression is very generalized, but based on truth in experience. Yes, some places more than others.
I well know that the experience of discrimation is not immune to misinterpreting things. It’s dicey — so very complex. I am caucasion and have a number of African American friends — gosh, the experience of inequality runs so very deep. As deep as blood running through one’s veins mingled with that of one’s ancestors. My best efforts at mitigating what my friends and their families have experienced and do experience individually and corporately only touches the surface, I sense.
“The voice and opportunity we give to women in our congregation more than proves that we are not being discriminatory towards them.”
I love what your church does. And I believe you when you indicate the proactive response to combat discrimination. But I can’t help but feeling that your statement is an oversimplification of things. Discrimination (such a political word, yuck — how about “rejection” in all its shades of one’s substance and identity) is felt on so many deep levels. I believe inherited memory (from past generations) is a real thing. I think it takes several generations of right, fair, just, and equal treatment to penetrate deeply enough. Ugh — it’s happening in your church at present, it sounds like, but too many places where it is not.
We do our best, though.
Hmmm? Are women happy in church?
Maybe it depends on which church we’re talking about? 🙂
The Church of God? – Or – the church of man?
The Church of God…
Where Jesus is the head of the body, – (The Ekklesia, the called out ones) – The Church?
Where Jesus adds to His Church – His body – Jesus builds and edifies – His Church – His body.
And – Jesus is the “ONE” Shepherd. John 10:16 – Jesus is the “ONE” Leader. Mat 23:10 NASB
And His Disciples ALL call themselves “Servants” – Hear His Voice – and Follow Jesus.
Where “In Christ” we are ALL “ONE” – Neither Male – Nor Female – ALL have the “Same Spirit.”
OR – the church of man…
Where Man – Takes “Titles/Positions” NOT found in the Bible – And “Exercises Authority.”
Where – You go to a secular organization – the IRS – And ask permission to be called “church.”
You fill out a form called a – 501 (c) 3. – Give it to a “Mere Fallible Human” to decide…
If and when you are approved – You become a – Gov’t Approved – Gov’t Inspected…
501 (c) 3 – Non-profit – tax $ deductible – Religious $ Corporation – The IRS – calls church.
Should Believers – His Disciples – call a $ Corporation – church? AAARRRRGGGHHHH 🙂
Did Jesus shed His Blood for – a Building – an Organization – a Denomination – a $ Corporation?
Nooo – Jesus shed His Blood – to purchase – cleanse – His Church – His body – You and me…
First we have to figure out – What is “The church of God.”
Bcause IMO – If a women is In Christ – And is – His body – His Church…
And Jesus is her Shepherd – And Jesus is her Leader…
Well – How could she NOT be happy? 😉
What is popular is not always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is not always popular.”
Bobson and Dana,
“It isn’t just women who are good at giving the ‘right’ answer. During a mens group discussion I questioned the ‘male hero’ role that was being taught, the looks at the table made me realize I must be wrong – the pastors interpetation couldn’t be wrong.” Bobson wrote
I experience the same thing. Neither gender can handle new ideas, new questions. You become an oddball when you raise any new thing with them; all they know and never question is from the pulpit. My ministry has been outside the church, I worked with military veterans, homeless folks and now with students and I love it. I have learned not to expect much from the church for a long time. I dislike organized religion and consider myself “not religious” but a follower of Christ.
I focus on Jesus Christ who is my God, my All and He does not disappoint me, ever. Have to go now.
Miguel, A.Amos Love answers you better than I can.
I will add this: you come from a liturgical church, where you feel you need someone to administer the sacraments, absolve from guilt, etc. Did I believe those things you bet your bippy I would want that person to get it right.
I come from a revivalist background. God absolves me directly, I commune with Him one on One, the only baptism that counts is the one He gives, etc.
As to pastors no longer being as respected: agreed. But chalk at least part of that up to the plethora of disrespectable ones we’ve been served on a platter via media, and the disrespect some clergy have shown the masses.
Beloved
Much agreement – I NO longer expect much from “The Corrupt Religious System” either. 🙂
Much agreement – when you say…
“I experience the same thing. Neither gender can handle new ideas, new questions. You become an oddball when you raise any new thing with them; all they know and never question is from the pulpit.”
Yes – The Persisting Problem Points to the Pulpit. And why women are NOT happy in church.
It’s because of – The Pulpit – and – The Pulpiteers…
Yes – It’s the “Pulpit.” See, Pul… Pit… Puuuullll…. Piiiitttt…. A funny word. Yes? 😉
See, The “Pulpit” is really from the “Pit.” And the Pull-Pits job is to “Pull” us into the “Pit.”
Just get rid of the “Pulpit” – and “The Pulpiteers” – and the Problem – is Prevented. 😉
And – Today – It seems – The whole Sunday Service revolves around the “Pastor – in a Pulpit”
Jesus calls the scribes and Pharisees (The Religious Leaders) The Woe People – He says…
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, “Hypocrites” – Seven times in just Mat 23 alone.
Hypocrite – is Strongs – #5273 – hupokrites –
And – It means – an actor under an assumed character (stage-player)
Is NOT todays Pastor – required by our tradition to be – a Stage Player?
The Poor Pastor – is Praised – or Pummeled – on their Performance – in a Pulpit – as a Stage Player.
Here is this Poor Person – with the “Title” “Pastor/Reverend” – NOT found in the Bible
Required by tradition – to Perform – Every Sunday morning – Par excellence…
And nothing less – by the Patrons – who are Paying him – to Perfect them. 😉
Hasn’t anyone ever wondered…Why – In the Bible – There is NOT one
Paid – Professional – Pastor – in a Pulpit – Preaching – to People – in Pews?
That certainly was NOT the way Jesus taught “His Disciples.” Seems He hit the streets. 😉
And – Paul recommends in 1 Cor 14:26, That each one has a teaching, a revelation…
And ALL believers can, and are expected to participate. – I like Paul – a lot.
After experiencing many different kinds of “the church of man” – “Corrupt Religious Systems”
It becomes evident that – Pastors – in Pulpits – Prevent – People – from Participating…
Promoting Pew Potatoes. 😉 And the Pastor – Procures – Power – Profit – Prestige.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Dee, love that song! Glad you’re a fellow country music fan! 🙂
For country music lovers, another one that fits many of us to a tee these days is the oldie “Me and Jesus got our own thing going.”
in response to Laura, “No, men do not need to recognized as leaders either”. A position is always recognized only because of job description. But what is bad is a church whose pastor (usually male) is seen bigger than life. He can do no wrong and his decisions are not to be questioned. What I have found disturbing isn’t so much how the leader acts, but the pervasive attitude of the people in the church who put these men on pedestals giving them power that is not theirs. Its easy for that one minister who came in humble and grateful and everyone looks to him as the savior of the church and then he changes over time. Its more a problem with the congregation….rather than the leader. Its why I believe the answer starts with people who love Jesus, seek to serve him in whatever capacity they find themselves in and see their reward as coming from God; not seeing their position of whether they are recognized or not. So what there isn’t more paid women pastors. As I said there are women pastors everywhere in many many churches as they do what Biblical shepherds already do.
Mike,
” I do understand there is abuse, but I wonder if its more about someone’s “rights” not being recognized rather than this idea that men in churches are making deliberate decisions to keep women out of leadership”
Thanks for bringing this up. I think this topic is so important because you’re right, there are many people who ask this same question that you are asking.
I can only offer one woman’s humble opinion, but I think there are others on here who might agree with me? In my view, it is relevant to continue examining the roles that men and women live out in churches–not to attack anyone, not to get hysterical, but to keep examining. And here is why.
Let’s say, for the sake of the argument, that men are treating women unfairly, even in small ways. It IS true that we should seek God’s approval more than man’s approval. But an unfair “witholding” of man’s approval still has functional consequences. The consequences don’t necessarily go away, even if we have realized the truth that God is our ultimate authority.
I grew up in a church that was technically complementarian, but the environment was not suppressive to women, women were given many opportunities, and no one was abused. Even in this mostly-healthy environment, the fact that women were seen as being the ones who “go so high, but no higher” greatly impacted the view I had of myself. It was only later in life that I realized the fears I had developed about going to my full potential–the fear that women weren’t supposed to reach their potential the way men were allowed to. This was a small fear, held subconsciously, and it impacted me in ways that were often difficult to spot. But it was a consequence of growing up in a complementarian environment, and it was a consequence that needed to be rectified.
So it’s not necessarily about people getting “rights”. It’s about recognizing that we, as a body of believers, may be causing negative consequences that God doesn’t want us to cause. And we are responsible to look at that.
As a side note, most of the men I grew up with would think it was preposterous that the environment we lived in could have had this kind of effect on me. Sometimes it is harder for guys to see the negative side of an issue that doesn’t affect them as much–just as it took me until the age of 28 to fully understand the privilege that I have as a white person.
Just a few thoughts.
Mike –
“In the end isn’t what is most important that we serve God in whatever way he directs us?”
Yes, Mike that is what is most important. You seem to be saying that women should believe that they are mainly directed by God to volunteer support positions.
Others would voice that same comment to say that if a woman is directed to a paid position of leadership, she should pursue it.
Most women are pretty well acquainted with the strategy of being called envious or greedy for wanting the same opportunities as our brothers. Plenty of women internalize the message and do not stray from the roles assigned to them. Other women are not convinced.
Speaking of Barna and pastors….Pagan Christianity is a great resource for the history of the word.
Women “pastor”/shepherd all the time. We just do not recognize it as the institutional definition of “pastor”. It is perfectly ok in many churches as long as they don’t make it official. And, it is probably more real since they are not expecting a paycheck for it. :o)
Is pastor a verb or noun?
Best thing you can read about “pastor” or “elder”
http://frankviola.org/straight.pdf
“Most women are pretty well acquainted with the strategy of being called envious or greedy for wanting the same opportunities as our brothers.”
Yep. Many respond this way to try and make it a sin as in women just want authority over others. I call that projection. What hey do not realize is that women are CO HEIRS. They can inherit every single spiritual thing a male can. There are no pink or blue spiritual gifts. Not just salvation but gifts. Funny how that passage is often interpreted as meaning only salvation. Wrong. It is everything.
Paul would be appalled at how Satan has twisted 1 Tim using translators who love to lord it over and the wrong interpretation of authenteo to shut up the sisters from their full inheritance. Of course, looking at how many interpret the 1 Tim passage, even Paul would not be eligible because he was not married. :o)
In Bible study generally one has to be careful about phrasing the questions. It’s a challenge to avoid feeding either “easy-peasy” answers or those that force the group into a sort of “entrapment” answer (usually to please the question-framer’s own doctrinal distinctives). In that sense those who said gender has nothing to do with it are right.
However I do sometimes wonder in some churches whether women’s Bible studies are framed differently to men’s on the same passage. I was also told by a friend who went to a men’s weekend that the speaker said he didn’t read his Bible together with his wife because men and women read it differently! This I thought was a bit much even for someone like me who recognises that our very physiology can make us think differently at times.
A few things:
1) Why did they restrict it only to churchgoing women? Wouldn’t it have been interesting to know why women AREN’T going to church? Or why women used to go to church but don’t go now? Or do they not want to hear an earful from women like me? (But see below.)
2) One of the problems with surveys, particularly in the religious sphere, is that people don’t exactly tell the truth. Brad/Futuristguy alluded to that above in the formation of the questions. I’d go beyond the questions on the survey talking about how women feel regarding their roles in church. I’d ask whether Barna Group sufficiently weeded out the “aspirational churchgoers” from the “real churchgoers.”
This has been a problem with surveys regarding religious belief and practice. People tell the survey taker what society EXPECTS, not what they actually DO. So, when the person from Gallup calls up people and asks them if they attended church within the last X number of days, more than a few people will give the aspirational answer (Yes) rather than the real answer (No). Social scientists have known there’s been a serious problem with the data from Gallup (and other survey companies) for literally decades because of this particular problem, but attempts to actually get to (for example) an actual percentage of people who have attended church within the last X days is very difficult to get at.
3) The last huge, enormous, unbelievably large problem with phone surveys is “does your survey only include land lines, or does it also include cell phones?” Getting a good mix of both is necessary for an accurate survey, because land line use among younger people is declining. (I wouldn’t have a land line in my own home except for the days when I have to be on the phone for six hours straight. Then the line pays for itself.) And, after you’ve got your good mix of land and cell numbers, it’s, “Land line or cell line, are people actually answering the phones or letting it roll to voice mail?” If I don’t recognize the number, it goes to voice mail.
4)The articles Barna publishes about the data they’ve acquired are a teaser to denominations, religious publishers and large churches to actually purchase the survey crosstabs. (That’s where the survey drills down into the details, and may even include excerpts from interviews.) Those survey crosstabs are NOT cheap. The question I have is, Why did Barna conduct this survey? They don’t do them out of the goodness of their hearts. They expect to make money from selling the detailed results to the Last Baptist Convention and the Potter’s Field Christian Bookstore chain. (Yes, that’s sarcasm.) And if they had someone lined up in advance for this survey, that group could have seriously skewed the questions to get certain answers (again referring to what brad/futuristguy says).
I’d like to see the questions and the crosstabs.
One thing I like about this blog are people who want to know or do know the REAL Jesus. Not the prepackaged one marketed by the institutional churches or para church orgs.
“Most women are pretty well acquainted with the strategy of being called envious or greedy for wanting the same opportunities as our brothers.”
This reminds me of an interview I heard where screenwriter/director Joss Whedon was asked, “Why do you always write about these strong female characters?” Whedon shot back, “Because you’re still asking me that question.”
@ Southwestern Discomfort on Thu Aug 30, 2012 at 07:15 PM.
I’m still working on deeper reading of Part 1 of their report, but am far enough into it to know you’ve raised some excellent questions about the methodology and the motivations behind this survey. The question of landline and/or mobile is crucial for several reasons these days – generations most like to answer one versus the other, time of day people are more likely to answer the phone, those kinds of things.
Other questions I have about this and any other survey methods in the postmodern/digital era:
–> What time of day did they call? If landlines during the daytime, you get a certain kind of respondent, and how can you tell if that’s normative for the wider church?
–> How “churchy” was the vocabulary of the questions used? If it used church-speak jargon, seems that would tend to get more response from women with conventional church backgrounds instead of ones that are, say, more emerging, Emergent, progressive, missional (i.e., likely far younger). I suspect the language differs far more these days between generations, than within one generation.
–> What age were the survey takers? Would their voice suggest a particular age category, and how might that affect a positive connection being established (or not so much) with respondents, and thus the willingness to answer questions?
I’m sure there are more such issues to consider, and The Barna Group surely can afford to have experts put together a reasonable survey strategy. It’s just that things have changed so radically in terms of “streams” within the North American church in the past 15 years that unless I knew up front if/how they were dealing with that diversity in paradigms – especially among younger generations – I wouldn’t trust that they’re getting an authentic sense of the pulse in the culture *as it now is.* And if I was queasy about that, I strongly doubt I’d be interested in paying big bucks if I had them (or even small cents) for “the questions and the crosstabs.”
From what I’ve seen so far, I’m feeling a bit queasy. Still, I will try to read it for what’s actually there and not overlook important information. I’m sure I’ll find some positive/constructive details.
Maybe I’m just too much of a skeptic, or maybe that’s an intuitive plus intentional analysis conclusion that’s totally understandable. But there are reasons for that … Besides taking college courses in social research construction and editing medical research grant proposals that rely on logic-tight strategies, here’s a personal story which helps explain why such questions are needed.
In the mid-2000 decade, I was in a church that was [supposedly] going through a re-visioning process to shift their course toward an edgier future that was more “culture current” and connecting with people who have a more postmodern mindset, among others. To get congregational input, they had everyone fill out a survey and then had a group of consultants come in to explain and interpret the results.
Problem was, the survey used was developed in, like, the 1980s using what was “edgy” then … namely, some proto-seeker-sensitive language, some “body life” language, things like that. When I took the survey, I felt that at least a third of the questions were utterly irrelevant to then-current issues! So I asked why they were using this survey when the church methodologies and issues being asked about were at least 25 to 30 years old. The answer: “Well, this survey has been used enough to be able to get a lot of statistical reliability in comparing it to trends from a large group of other churches in transition.”
Huh? In my thinking, if we ask a lot of untimely/irrelevant questions, what good is it if we get any kind of answer? This was apple questions in an orange era. Those questions were all looking backward to the conventional church paradigms as the standard, before the massive paradigm shifts in the church of the past 15-20 years. How can comparing a church that was supposedly looking toward the eventual retirement of Boomers going to be helped by asking older Boomers the same questions as when they were young to middle-aged Boomers? What quality of “input” was this, really?
Anyway, not meaning to “harsh their mellow” on that survey, but it was a colossal waste of time and money, in my opinion. And it’s part of why I think we need to look VERY carefully at what’s underneath any survey. Even from big-name vendors.
As one who has taught social science research methods at the graduate level, I can say that survey research is hard to do well. Questions must be carefully designed and tested, sampling planned so as to minimize inherent errors, and all of that and the surveying adds up to much $$$. So all of the above should be in the reports about the research so that others can examine it and critique it.
Everyone thinks they know how to do survey research, and few, perhaps very few, really do it well; even the best botch one every once in a while.
Sympathy for the Barna bunch is appropriate, along with the critique.
Elastigirl @ 1:05pm –
That’s fairly close to what I see. I just don’t think that those are the things that should be motivating believers. It makes me want to run from the intitutional church 🙁
Bridget–
Yes, these things are all distractions.
The preoccupation with Paul is a bad habit of keeping one’s brain on a hamster wheel. His writings are so loaded it’s always convenient sermon and study material. But he is not Jesus Christ, he is not the vine, not the logos, not the light.
The preoccupation with popular idealogues is an unintellgent reflexive response, like moths drawn to a kerosene lamp. Or space aliens to “the claw!!”.
Fear of irrelevance and extinction…. i can’t get away from the feeling that the chief purpose of church is to perpetuate itself. To keeg the machine running. Because should it slow down, and get slower, and slower, and then STOP….. how will God get along without these professional christians to handle things for him? America and the world will fall apart without the professionals, like a contraption minus the lynchpin. But most importantly of all, what will these professional christians do for a living?
Distractions indeed.
“The preoccupation with Paul is a bad habit of keeping one’s brain on a hamster wheel. His writings are so loaded it’s always convenient sermon and study material. But he is not Jesus Christ, he is not the vine, not the logos, not the light.”
HELLO.
While that is theoretically a true statement, it is also true that ordination and credentials influence how much stake people put in your opinion. Recently, for example, my pastor said something untrue -and significant for how we treat others – from the pulpit.
I made it known that he is not speaking the truth. But nobody – except one who wrote me an anonymous praise letter – chose my side when I spoke up. Not because the pastor knows better, but he is the person in power, and they want to stay on his side.
When you say a certain group of people could never be ordained, you do say their opinion is worth less. Unless, of course, you are in a church where the pastor’s truly do not dominate. And I never experienced a church like that.
Laura – elastigirl – Bridget
I’m enjoying your conversation and questions…
Much agreement – as you write…
“Why is much of the Church teaching and acting so contrary to Jesus?”
I’d say (1) a preoccupation with “Paul”; (2) a preoccupation with popular christian idealogues who have the mic; (3) a fear of irrelevance; (4) a fear of extinction.
As I wandered through the different “Corrupt Religious Systems” that the IRS calls church…
I noticed the preoccupation with “Paul” and the many things Paul taught that seemed – opposite – to what Jesus had taught – And a lot of it had to do with women. As I slowly returned to the Gospels and what Jesus had to say – I began to see Paul in a different light.
Seems “The Traditions of Men” taught from the Pulpit – Have a powerful effect on us.
Mark 7:13 NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
My therory NOW is – And I resrve the right to be wrong. 😉
We “first” have to understand – Jesus – And what Jesus is teaching – His Disciples.
Then do our best – To understand how Pauls teachings – Fit with what Jesus taught.
And if they – seem – to be a contradtiction – Ask Jesus to show you – “Truth.”
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be *ALL taught of God.*
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to **hear His voice,**
that *He might instruct thee*
Even the Disciples – Who walked with Jesus – questioned what Paul was saying – and doing.
2 Pet 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things;
**in which are some things hard to be understood,**
Seems most of the protestant landscape – Today – is focused on Paul – And Ignores Jesus.
@ An Attorney on Thu Aug 30, 2012 at 09:00 PM said: [As one who has taught social science research methods at the graduate level, I can say that survey research is hard to do well. Questions must be carefully designed and tested, sampling planned so as to minimize inherent errors, and all of that and the surveying adds up to much $$$. So all of the above should be in the reports about the research so that others can examine it and critique it. Everyone thinks they know how to do survey research, and few, perhaps very few, really do it well; even the best botch one every once in a while. Sympathy for the Barna bunch is appropriate, along with the critique.]
Spot on, as usual! It is really hard to do this right. I’ve used my research training more for helping others write questions, do investigative reporting kinds of things, and conduct worldview analysis than actually creating social research designs myself.
I’ve gotten cranky with The Barna Group over the years because they present so many studies, but I keep running up against not having enough details about their construction and questions, such that I’m unsure of their interpretations and conclusions. Oh well … as you said, they do deserve sympathy as well as critique.
A. Amos Love,
Yes, humans were made to hear his voice. But tuning in to his frequency is becoming a lost art. Too much static snowing it all up. Too much noise from loudmouth spiritual powerbrokers. Too much management. But for some reason it sells well, so people grab on to it. I think the mystery of tapping in to an invisible God is too frustrating and takes too much time to figure out, so something the senses can instantly grab on to (like a book, a you tube video clip, or the queen mutha of them all — “the conference”) is the preferred route. Instant, readily available, seemingly efficient, the seeming shortest distance between 2 points — a straight shot from me to God.
But it’s God-once-removed (if not twice, or thrice). Like that distant cousin.
It’s like the game of operator. The more consecutive channels the message passes through the greater the margin for distortion or true error.
It’s like processed food. The more times the original source (fruit, vegetables, grains, legumes and meat) passes through the machines the less of the real deal & the less nutrition you end up with.
It’s like the pharmaceutical industry, complete with lobbyist waymakers. The more we are shown glossy ads that promise the answer the more we become dependent on cute little drug after drug, depleting our bank accounts and growing theirs. And the less we realize that good nutrition, exercise, and relaxation as a priority will make a good many of these drugs completely irrelevant.
And these things are readily avaiable and attainable (nutritious unprocessed food, exercise, making time to relax). They require effort, though. Exercise and putting relaxation time in ones schedule are more learned things, but they’re not that hard.
God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are readily available. As available as air. Tuning in to their frequency is a learned thing & requires some purposeful effort. But it’s not that hard.
Bottom line — peole want convenience, immediacy, and ease. Professional christians want to practice their trade gainfully. A perfect match. The managers want to manage, and the managees are all to happy to be managed. It’s efficient for both parties.
But it’s not necessary.
Not to this convoluted level, at least.
Elastigirl –
It’s not necessary at all. And all they (many church leaders) are doing is bringing the business world’s system into the Church and turning Church into a business. What is weird is that I see very good intentioned men do this over and over again. But they seem to not grasp what they are doing. As soon as they get that “building” then most of the (Church) bodies’ time, resources, and gifts become focused inward on the building and running programs. And the idea of “excellence” turns all consuming.
Amos –
That comment was for you as well 🙂
On a related note… this flashed across my screen the other day. It’s since been removed, so here it is. Who knew that passage of the 19th Amendment led to all this?! (Warning: Grip something tightly before you read this.)
The National Deception of Women
by JenniferR
Yesterday marked a 92 year anniversary. Women of dedication, fortitude and relentless perseverance worked tirelessly for years. They poured their lives into their passion in an attempt to make it a reality. They often met with fierce resistance, were heckled, jailed, physically abused on occasion, and some even went on hunger strikes all for one cause.
They banded together, seeing their goal as worthy. And their efforts paid off. They won a victory that forever changed America. Our country heralds these women, honoring them as one would honor fallen war heroes. Their accomplishment? The passage of the 19th amendment. Specifically, the work of these women (as well as those who fought during the decades before them) resulted in the foundation for much of the evil and ungodliness that floods our nation today.
1 John 2:26 says, “These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.”
And so I also have written these things to you, about those who are trying and have tried, (and often succeed) in deceiving you. The granting of women the right to participate in all public elections gave them more than just the right to vote. It gave women a political voice and set the stage for:
Roe vs. Wade, resulting in the murder of millions of unborn babies
Equal pay for equal work, often resulting in men being unable to provide for their families as they compete for jobs with women
Gross immodesty, resulting in the abuse of women and desensitizing of men
No fault divorce, resulting in millions of fatherless homes
And God’s judgement on our land, who says:
“Woe unto the wicked, it shall be ill with him for the reward of his hands shall be given him. As for My people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O My people, they which lead thee cause thee to err and destroy the way of thy paths.” Isaiah 3:11-12
We’ve been deceived, we continue to be deceived and unless we know the truth, we will unknowinly pass this deception to our children and their children in turn.
I’ve often observed that women can be their own worst enemies. The above is a case in point.
NASS –
It’s all the fault of women getting the vote — wow! Someone is deceived for sure.
Bottom line — people want convenience, immediacy, and ease. Professional christians want to practice their trade gainfully. A perfect match. The managers want to manage, and the managees are all to happy to be managed. It’s efficient for both parties.
Perfect, indeed! I would just substitute “lucratively” or “profitably” for “gainfully.” It’s big business with a lot of eager customers.
I’ve often observed that women can be their own worst enemies. The above is a case in point. — NotaStepfordSheep
Queen Bee Syndrome. When a woman climbs up within a system, she often makes absolutely sure NO other woman can ever climb up to challenge her. And women can be just as vicious and ruthless as men when it comes to Power (paging Imelda Marcos and/or Elena Ceaucescu); they just express it differently — more likely to be indirect or passive-aggressive than directly aggressive. A man will shoot you in the face with a snarl of rage while a woman will poison you behind your back with a sweet smile. Radically-different fighting styles, coming from being physically stronger or weaker, coming from a one-up or one-down positions.
It’s all the fault of women getting the vote — wow! Someone is deceived for sure. — Bridget
Some years ago, there was a Christian blog called “The Brothers Judd” who were heavily into this idea. They seemed to be obsessed with both Uppity Women (counting the decline of Christian America from the passing of the 19th Amendment) and Young Earth Creationism Uber Alles. I don’t know what became of their blog.