Final Thoughts on Gays and Christianity: We Can Do Better

Whoever is spared personal pain must feel himself called to help in diminishing the pain of others. We must all carry our share of the misery which lies upon the world. -Albert Schweitzer

 

This subject has been very hard on me. I am in a position of not going far enough with some people and going way out on a limb with others. My goal is not to change people into (fill in the blank). I want people to understand the issue from the eyes of several Christians who have dealt with this in their lives.

Today, I will finish up on this topic with a free flow of thoughts from my discussions with Justin. I am so grateful that Justin spent the time with me. He opened my eyes to many things that I have never considered. Justin made me realize that I am dealing with people, not a just a theological concept.

I also want to thank the TWW community for dealing with our differing positions with grace and kindness. You are all an example of how to show Christ's love while discussing a topic that has dominated the Christian and secular landscape, often in an ugly manner.  You guys are awesome! 

(Dee now gets to crawl into a hole and lick her wounds! We will definitely be switching to an easier topic.)


We do not need to lecture every gay person we meet

The one thing the Christian community has conveyed to the culture, loud and clear, is that homosexuality is a sin. Justin said that many Christians feel the need to tell every gay person they meet what their religious stand is on the issue. He  said that all gays, along with a majority of the populace the United States, know exactly what Christians think of homosexuality:

  • They are in sin
  • They must be celibate
  • They must change
  • Laws must change

The one thing that they do not know is that Christians can love them.  Assume that the person you are meeting already knows your views on homosexuality. Instead, try to be conversant and befriend them. Think of it this way. The first time you meet a straight couple, do you feel the need to review the sexual mores of the church? Justin says Christians have got the “hate the sin” down pat. They do not do so well in the “love the sinner" department.

Justin quoted Philip Yancey in his soon to be published book, Torn.

Philip Yancey : Recently I have been asking a question of strangers-for example, seat mates on airplanes-when I strike up a conversation. “When I say the words “evangelical” Christian’ what comes to mind?”

In reply, mostly I hear political descriptions: of strident pro-life activists, or gay rights opponents, or proposals for censoring the Internet. I hear references to the Moral Majority, an organization disbanded years ago. Not once-not once-have I heard a description redolent of grace. Apparently that is not the aroma Christians give off in the world.” (p137)

Churches do not provide clear role models for gays.

Think about your church. It has programs for families, Sunday school programs for kids, women’s Bible studies, marriage seminars, divorce recovery, etc. The church is set up to be a great role model for families. The pastor is usually married and role models his family.

Where is the admired celibate gay person leading a Bible study, worship service, or serving as a deacon? Sometimes I wonder if single people are really welcome in the church. Many churches would not hire a senior pastor who is single. Yet Paul himself was a single for his entire ministry.

There are most likely gay kids in your church.

Justin quotes a study (p.9) by Christian Community that virtually all congregations, even the ones who were outspoken against homosexuality,  had kids who self-identified as gay but they would not tell others in the church about this.

If the church does not have gay role models, who will these kids turn to for advice? Unless the church gets serious about this issue, our children may turn to the larger gay community, which exists outside of the church. 

If a gay person must be celibate for his life, how does the church support them?

Justin made a point that very few people are commanded to be celibate for life. Even in the case of a long time single person, there is always the hope that they might meet someone. The church seems comfortable with commanding celibacy but does very little to support the person who must now deal with the day-to-day living out of their celibacy. 

The church is good at telling a gay person what he can’t do. He wants to know what he can do.

Justin was asked to review a 9-page policy statement on gays in a certain large Christian organization. He said it consisted of 7 ½ pages which gave the biblical basis for their perspective on the Bible and homosexuality. Another page was devoted to restrictions on what a gay person could not do in the organization. Only about ½ page was dedicated to what a gay person could do.

Justin says that he understands that celibacy means no sexual contact.  However, there is far more to affection than just sex. For example, when a single person meets a member of the opposite sex, they are not chastised for holding hands or putting their arms around each other (except in some highly legalistic circles) so long as it does not lead to sex. Is such behavior allowed for a celibate gay person? 

Covenantal friendships

Justin said that celibacy is a life long commitment. But few churches have figured out how to help those who will never marry.  Justin had me imagine a scenario in which he gets very old and is no longer to care for himself. Most people have spouses or children to support them.  What about a single gay man?

He proposed an interesting idea. Some gays have formed special covenant friendships-loving but non-sexual relationships to meet their need for companionship without engaging in any kind of sexual activity. 

I could see this having even broader applications. Could churches start groups for people who do not have families, helping them to become a family to one another?  Of course, those married with families could include them. However, if truth be told, many families are so busy managing their situations that their time is limited. I think this is a fascinating option. I am curious to hear if any of our readers have seen such groups in their churches.

Be a friend

Justin says that Christians are often fearful of becoming friends with someone who is gay. Deep down inside such Christians worry that, by their friendship they are giving tacit approval to an active gay persons life

Justin says not to worry. That gay person already has a pretty good idea of what you think about his lifestyle. Become a good listener. Be slow to speak and quick to listen.

One commenter asked about how to communicate with her husband with whom she disagrees on this issue. He refers her to Tony and Peggy Campolo. Tony believes that the homosexual act is a sin. His wife does not. They often speak to groups  together. Here is a link to their discussions.

Be very careful of the "nurture" versus "nature" argument

In Justin’s situation, it was clear that he came from a wonderful, loving family. Some Christians blame the parents for causing “the gay.” Yet, in the vast majority of families, one child is gay while the others are not.  This can be a subtle, self-congratulatory preening.  "I’m a better parent than you are."

Recently Tony Perkins, of the Family Research Council, was asked what he would say if one of his kids told him he was gay. He claimed:

I doubt that would happen with my children as we are teaching them the right ways that they are to interact as human beings. We’re not allowing them to be indoctrinated by the education system link

His premise is rather startling. He believes that parents can teach children not to be gay and that the education system is causing them to be gay as well.

This reminds me of a pastor who said that if we used a certain church curriculum, our kids would grow up right. He learned the fallacy of this argument the hard way when one of his kids seriously rebelled.

Christian parents must teach their children not to tease or hurt other children they deem to be “gay.”

Parents must look to themselves. Our children often reflect our attitudes towards others.  Christian children should be raised to be kind and actively discouraged from using derogative terminology.

Pastors must realize that constant condemnation of homosexuality could prevent people from seeking help for the church

Justin discusses one mother who said that she had heard, in her church, so many antigay sermons, saw so many kids teasing others and parents making potshots at gays, that she was fearful to go to the church for help after her son revealed he was gay.

Too many Christians believe that just being gay (even if celibate) is a sin.

Being gay is not the sin and being heterosexual does not imply goodness. It is what we do with our sexuality that matters. Justin remarked  that “a 45 year old single straight woman may feel overlooked or misunderstood at her church but she doesn’t have to be worried about being condemned for being straight."

Finally, could Christian leaders stop blaming every disaster on “homosexuals.”

A theology that states that leaders know that certain disasters are caused by a certain sin which was committed by a certain group of individuals is ridiculous. Do leaders really want to say that they know the mind of God?  Also, if they insist on proclaiming sins that cause disasters, why are disasters never “caused” by pastors who use their pulpits to get rich or have affairs?

I want to close this series with a quote from Paul Burleson, Wade’s father, who wrote me as I was considering writing about this issue.  He transparently discussed his struggle to understand his thinking on the issue.

“So I think my problem with homosexuals, in simple terms, has more to do with my seeing THEM as the ABUSED as opposed to the ABUSER. Maybe demonstrated in Jesus with the woman at the well and the religious guys at the money-changing table in the Temple. 

It may be as simple a thing as my wanting to address them as people WITHOUT reminding them of what I see as their sinful act every time I'm with them. I don't want to address a gluttonous person on the basis of their EATING or an adulterer on the basis of their ADULTERY or a prideful person on the basis of their PRIDE either.  There may be a time and a place for addressing their actions but none of them have to FIRST admit my view of their behavior is the CORRECT view for me to express my love to them. I just want to love them as people.

I think I've concluded that I'd rather go on loving sinners as people where they are and helping them,  if I can, to ultimately find their identity in Christ and not in any particular brand of sin they might struggle with. I'm thinking that IS the gospel. I could, of course, be wrong in my conclusion. But I really don't think I am.”

Lydia's Corner: Genesis 39:1-41:16 Matthew 12:46-13:23 Psalm 17:1-15 Proverbs 3:33-35
 

Comments

Final Thoughts on Gays and Christianity: We Can Do Better — 156 Comments

  1. Dee, my sincere thanks to both you and Justin for a most loving and informative exchange. I’ve come to a far better understanding of the issues he and others face within the Christian community. It was imo a very fruitful dialogue!

  2. Dee – You’ve done a great job with this series, and I’m thankful for you and your very compassionate heart!

    Take some time to kick back and just enjoy yourself now – feet up, book (or Kindle, maybe?) in hand, a nice cold drink at your side and no pressing issues to deal with. (I know, I know, you’ve had a lot to do this week – hope you can take the weekend off!)

    The whole idea of having committed “families” is something I’ve wished for… as a long-term single person. Though I am straight, I do know the pain of being overlooked and excluded (though certainly not in the same way that LGBT people are, since they are so often persecuted and attacked on the basis of their sexual orientations alone)

    And honestly, I don’t think anyone can necessarily count on blood relatives to be there when facing illness, physical decline, bereavement – so many things. Families split up and go their own ways, and today, so many of us are so scattered geographically that people who have good, caring families are often alone, due to their geographic location vs. that of adult children, other relatives, etc.

    I saw how my mom started making friends with other widows – both in her church (Lutheran) and outside of it after my dad died. Those friends have been more of a family to her than so-called “family” has been (for the most part – sadly, many of her closest friends are gone now).

    OK, I’m rambling, but again… thank you! and my sincerest thanks to Justin as well. Am really looking forward to reading his book!

  3. Wow! These articles are the best I’ve ever read on this subject. Thank you so much for daring to tackle such a volatile topic.

  4. Thank you for this. They encapsulate so many things I’ve been thinking about as well. I agree with the idea that evangelical churches are unwelcoming to singles, whether gay or straight. I know a particular 50-year-old childless, single, heterosexual woman who has stopped going to church because every church she visited broadcast the attitude: “As far as we’re concerned, childless, single women are not important in or to our church.” She still loves Jesus but can find no place to fellowship where she doesn’t feel completely superfluous and unwanted– or even an embarrassment. Women like her aren’t supposed to exist, in the eyes of churches to which motherhood and marriage are what women are for.

    If the church can stop the focus on doctrine and start seeing people, remembering Jesus’ words, “the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath,” maybe LGBT people and single heterosexuals can finally start to feel like the church actually cares about them.

  5. LOL, wait until you’re nearly 70 as I am and they start talking louder and slower to you!

  6. And yet, let us not forget that homosexual activity is sin and as such carries negative consequences (physical, emotional and spiritual) here on Earth.

  7. One of the big problems, in my mind, is that hatred, resentment, judgment, etc, are really easy to do when we think of “us and them”. It’s a little different when we think of .. and actually get in a room with … “me and you”.

    Jesus loves and saves people one at a time. We’d do well to emulate Him every way we can.

  8. As a single, (so far) lifelong celibate guy in my mid-20’s, I’ve found out firsthand that you don’t have to be gay to experience, to a degree, the church’s poor treatment of singles. Even in a small church, there are enough couples near my age that I can feel excluded every time they organize a time of community to which I’m not invited. At least I’m allowed to help with various ministries (everyone knows unmarried people have all the time in the world).

    I can only imagine if I confessed to feeling same sex attraction, I’d probably be stripped of all my volunteer responsibilities. (Then I’d probably leave my Baptist church and go down the street to the UCC congregation, where, even though I don’t agree with them on more than a few things, I’d at least be accepted as a brother in Christ!).

    The only answer I have is that truly loving others has to start with me (and I’m far from perfect!). The dilemma remains that if I befriend a gay person, there’s no way in a hot place that I could bring them to my own church! What’s a person to do?

  9. Wow…it seems that between gays, singles, and the divorced, the church isn’t doing too well, is it? For 30 yrs. I didn’t get invited to most social activities nor allowed some ministries because I was divorced. It’s more like an exclusive club.

  10. Evangelical Christians do a lousy job of reaching out to anyone who doesn’t meet their perfect family model. Yeah, there’s divorce “care,” but from what I’ve observed, the “care” seems to be towards pushing people back into marriage, because that’s the perfect state. You all have discussed this week how the evangelical church approaches GLBT persons and I don’t think it would surprise anyone to learn that I believe evangelicals do an absolutely abysmal job at that.

    And the evangelical church has absolutely nothing to say to me as a single, never-married, university-educated, living by myself, paying a mortgage, holding a job, sexually-experienced woman. The churches (as a householder, I get the mailouts for sermon series from the two megas within a five mile radius of my house) don’t speak to my situation. They speak to the heterosexually married with children types. That’s the ONLY way of being Christian they present to the world.

    The high irony of this is that, so far as we know, Jesus wasn’t married and Paul praised the single life as better than being married. Yet, the only proper family is the nuclear family. They’re stable, they pay tithing, they fill the pews on Sunday. Outwardly, they have it together. They’re not *messy* like separated families, single parent families, second marriage families, living together families, lesbian families, gay families, crazy cat lady families (me!), etc., etc. The evangelical church doesn’t like and can’t deal well with *messy*, even though life itself is just flat-out messy and inconvenient.

    And speaking from the perspective of the older, educated single adult: y’all have lost us. We may have been in your churches as young people, but now we do other things on our Sunday mornings. Sleep late, drink coffee after coffee at Starbucks, go on overnight trips out of town. Because y’all made it clear that if we didn’t fit in your mold, we weren’t welcome. And it’s about as unfriendly as it is for GLBT people.

    (Bonus Protip: Ladies, that older single adult female is not trying to steal your husband. She’s not stupid; she knows that if he’ll stray from you, he’ll stray from any subsequent woman in his life as well.)

    I could say volumes about the whole GLBT situation, but you don’t want to hear about my personal experience with coming >this< close to marrying a guy who (at that time) so far in the closet he was seeing the lamp post in Narnia. Let's just say that experience changed me forever.

  11. Josh

    Perhaps you could speak with people who are living a celibate life at Gay Christians Network? I am so sorry for the way you believe that your church would respond to you. Also, if you would like to send us an email about the area in which you live, we could try to see if we know any supportive fellowships in the area. Please know I am praying for you.

  12. Thanks so much, Dee. Nothing like a frank conversation. You’ve done a great thing here.

    Jesus is such an awesome person. Sure wish more than a few hazy shades of him came through the church at large.

    You mentioned that you are going to crawl into a hole and lick your wounds. I haven’t read all the comments (many, but not all) — have you been strafed? More than the comments indicate?

  13. I left fundamentalism in June and now a bright new world is opening up to me. No longer do I go to church and have most of the women look through me. No longer do I agonize every week on what I can do to be more friendly so that people will actually talk to me in church. No longer do I have to be reminded that as a 54 year childless widow, I am worthless.

    I am still a believer, but it will be a very long time before I return to church.

  14. Teri Anne
    I do not blame you. Far too many churches are like that. That is why we started E Church on this blog. There are many people in your shoes. Please know that I will be praying for you. I am so glad that you commented here. We hope you will continue to chime in.

  15. Dee,

    While my current church doesn’t say outright that “singles ministry is an abomination,” singles – straight or otherwise – don’t fit in the community. I keep coming back to the points you’ve raised, and the implied broader points pertaining to all single people, and wondering, is there anything I can do to change the way things are? Complaining about not being included seems like it would be a self-defeating cycle. It could be an interesting litmus test of “what the leadership really thinks” if I were to propose that I be allowed to start an informal group for the gathering of single people, be they widowed, divorced, unmarried, or … well, that would best be left unsaid. But, deep inside, I’d rather just be included in the body as a whole without regard to the status du jour.

    But, not intending to derail things further than I already have, I would like to add one more point from the perspective of a single person. Regarding the church’s perspective on celibacy in general: maybe it’s just because I’m younger, or maybe it just happens to me, but why do church people feel the need to play matchmaker? Sorry, but no one was interested in me in college, where there were a couple tens of thousands of ladies, a notable subset of whom were unattached. I don’t need all y’all making it awkward with the few other singles at my church. Of course, if I were to pretend to be gay, that would put a stop to it post haste (or, on second thought, maybe not).

    And then, of course, if you go too long without getting married, people start to assume that you’re gay, whether that’s true or not. Guys can avoid this by being very interested in guns or MMA (ironically). If, like me, you’re more of an artistic type, then, well, it just sucks to be you. On the other hand, there may be job opportunities at a few churches far outside of Mark Driscoll’s reach who are looking for an effeminate worship leader. Hmm, an idea…

  16. Teri Anne,

    We are here for you, and I hope we can serve as your Christian community for a while. I hope you will enjoy our EChurch posts. Thanks for your transparency in posting your comment.

  17. Josh – maybe trying the UCC isn’t such a bad idea… seriously.

    i wish I had made a similar decision when I was younger.

  18. The follow is a short list of weighty social and spiritual issues or matters, that both society, (at large) and the  christian church has had to face in the recorded past:

    blasphemy
    heresy
    apostasy

    astrology
    witchcraft

    unchastity before marriage
    adultery
    incest
    sodomy
    homosexuality

    striking a parent
    incorrigible juvenile delinquency

    Note: All were historically view until relatively recant times as divinely determined flash points in a godly society. (Incurring corresponding personal, social, and possibly divine penalties, as well.) Note also: These flash points have also traditionally been viewed upon as detrimental to a thriving Christian culture.

    Please note also: In the United States, some of these involve laws, and may involve legal maters, where some are strictly seen as church issues or church matters. 

    Presently homosexuality in the United States, is not a punishable social offense. But neither is it presently considered a social norm within most Christian churches, or society (There are exceptions.) Presently homosexuality in modern society is being heavily debated as to is place in twenty-first century  culture and society, with legal matters naturally following. 

    Currently, the American legal system (to the greater extent) does not prosecute those who practice homosexuality. 

    The American legal system (to the greater extent) does not prosecute those who practice adultery, less concerning  divorce grounds or divorce matters. 

    The American legal system (to the greater extent) does not prosecute those who practice, blasphemy, heresy, or apostasy. 

    The American legal system (to the greater extent) does not prosecute those who practice, astrology, or witchcraft. 

    The American legal system (to the greater extent) does not prosecute those who practice, unchastity before marriage. 

    The American legal system (to the greater extent) may choose to prosecute those who practice: incest, striking a parent, or incorrigible juvenile delinquency, depending the conditions of the offense (if any).

  19. I agree with how the church neglects singles. To be gay certainly has to be a 100 times worse.
    Recently, a pastor wrote in a Christian magazine in my country, South Africa:
    “Because homosexuals cannot procreate, every same-sex relationship represents the death of a small civilization.” Except for being anti-gay, this is anti-everyone-who-do-not-procreate.

    In a discussion of the pastor’s words, one person defended him with:“The church [THE WORD OF GOD] is based on family values …”

    No, the church is neither synonymous with the Word, nor based on family values. The church is based on the character named Jesus of Nazareth. Of course we want families to be happy, but Jesus wasn’t nearly as family-oriented as the church. His politically incorrect statements include that he came to set family members against one another, and that he has no time for his mother and brothers at the moment – his followers is his mother, brothers and sisters.

  20. Even in a small church, there are enough couples near my age that I can feel excluded every time they organize a time of community to which I’m not invited. At least I’m allowed to help with various ministries (everyone knows unmarried people have all the time in the world). — Josh

    1) My college friends pretty much all got married like clockwork in the early Eighties. No matter how well I knew them, once they said “I Do”, I was on the outside looking in. Marrieds only associate with other marrieds and singles with other singles.

    2) Everyone knows singles are an unpaid labor pool for churches — stacking the chairs, brewing the coffee, fixing up the church — while the Marrieds stay home Focusing on their Families. You’re free labor and nothing more.

    No wonder every Christian seems to be desperate to throw a net over A Wife or A Husband, the woman or man targeted nothing more than the necessary piece of equipment to achieve the Married state, shed the Singles Cooties, and sit at the grown-ups’ table.

  21. Hi TeriAnne!

    ” No longer do I go to church and have most of the women look through me. No longer do I agonize every week on what I can do to be more friendly so that people will actually talk to me in church. No longer do I have to be reminded that as a 54 year childless widow, I am worthless.”

    You’ve just perfectly summed up my experience when I was 54 and attended church without my husband!

    I have given up on attending “church”, but have found a sense of community and belonging here at TWW that I’ve never experienced before in a church. EChurch has also been a great blessing to me 🙂

    You are a precious, valued child of God…. enjoy your Blood-bought freedom!

  22. MM

    Thank you for your response to Teri Anne. It is people like you who help me to see that the church does not exist in a physcal building but in the lives of Christ’s people.

  23. Josh, I completely resonate with your comments about being single in the church. Gay or straight, we face many of the same things (and some of the same assumptions as well!) from folks who don’t understand why we aren’t married.

    I, too, want to think and talk about what we can do to make this different. I’m hoping my upcoming book will raise some of these questions, which is a big part of why I wrote it. But if you have other ideas, I’d love to hear them, either here or on my blog (TornBook.com). Maybe we can get a group of like-minded singles together and talk about this completely separately from issues of sexuality.

    (And thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful comments on these entries so far! I haven’t had time to read them all, because I’ve been out of town, but I’m going to try!)

  24. Justin!

    Welcome! Thank you for commenting. I think there was a chord struck with the covenantal friendships. Although I believe the greatest difficulty is faced by gays who commit to lifelong celibacy, there are many single people who live on the fringes of church, as expressed by Teri Anne and HUG in this comment section.

    I believe you have hit upon an idea that could have widespread implictions for the church. In fact, I found the idea so profound, I was considering doing a separate post on the idea.

    I also want to thank you again for the kindness that you showed to me. This is a subject that is not discussed well in churches beyond the sloganeering. It is a topic the raises the ire of many people. However, I decided if we can’t discuss it, something is deeply wrong within the faith. You challenged me, and many others, and I am thankful.

  25. Justin,

    Thank you for meeting with Dee and engaging her in a thought-provoking discussion. I have learned so much from reading her posts.

    My husband and I have known your dad for many years and enjoy a wonderful friendship with him. He is very special to us.

    Also, I worked directly with your mom in character education almost a decade ago. Time slips by so quickly.  I remember seeing pictures of you and your siblings in her office.

    I would like to meet you sometime. Thanks for trusting us to share your story in this forum.

  26. Ironclad

    When you refer to homosexuality, are you referring to  actively practicing homsexuals or celibate homosexuals or all homosexuals?

  27. Dee,

    I really appreciate your courage in addressing this topic. It has given me much to think about. Also clarified a lot of things for me. Such as, why a person might call himself/herself “gay” even never having been sexually active. I never realized the reality of same-sex attraction before, and how it rarely goes away. And that it CAN be distinctively different than PRACTICING homosexuality. I just didn’t know. Also, it’s always been pounded into my head that “homosexuality is a sin; therefore it is always a CHOICE” and so any evidence toward a biological component used to really alarm me.

    Actually, a sort of light bulb has gone on in my head as I ponder this, and feel free to tell me if I’m way off here. It would seem to me that the “nurture” component in the nature vs. nurture argument could very well be something to consider, though it could be almost inseparable from the “nature” component because it can begin so early in life. And I’m not talking about “our precious innocent babes being influenced by those wicked wordly people in the public school system” at all. Or abuse or trauma. I’m talking about how today’s church and society alike emphasize the way a boy is supposed to be and the way a girl is supposed to be – and it starts from infancy. True, GENERALLY there are differences, but the problem is when those generalizations become inflexible rules. Parents’ fear of their boy having feminine tendencies can be harmful; boys who make fun of other boys who aren’t into “boy” things (sports, action figures, etc.) can cause further harm. They are supposed to fit the boy mold and if they don’t… well…

    Here is an example: My son is all boy, but from time to time he will play with his sister’s doll, pick up my purse, or point out something “girlie” at the store. My very patriarchal sister always makes a big deal out of this if she sees it: “No, that’s for girls not boys.” So if he really did like that pink sparkly toy on the shelf, and she’s telling him only girls like that stuff, then what does this communicate to a very impressionable young mind? This really bothers me but I could never figure out why until now. Why not just let him like what he likes AND affirm his “boy-ness?” Instead, I believe she could be setting him up for serious confusion.

    I sometimes wonder if the strict complementarian roles-mindset (which I would say is actually quite wordly and defines the vast majority of cultures around the world, though it manifests itself differently in different cultures) is the actual culprit in the gender/sexual orientation confusion which has sprung up in today’s society. Could it, along with ESS and the eery silence on the role of the Holy Spirit which seems to accompany both doctrines, be a form (and I think there may be MANY forms) of the the lie for which the truth of God is exchanged, as in Romans 1:25?

    Am I sounding crazy? Feel free to take my thoughts further or offer me constructive criticism here… I have never yet found an explanation of Romans 1 that satisfies me.

  28. As a Christian, I always treat every homosexual with grace and respect. I don’t discriminate against them. I do believe that the expectation on Christians has grown from being loving and tolerant to being accepting of the homosexual lifestyle. The Episcopal Church is a good example of the highest leader saying that homosexuality is something God embraces and is a beautiful thing. That, I do not agree with and I would never teach my children that it is OK or acceptable or just “different”, just as I won’t teach them that cheating is OK or premarital sex is OK or that bullying is OK.

  29. Parents’ fear of their boy having feminine tendencies can be harmful; boys who make fun of other boys who aren’t into “boy” things (sports, action figures, etc.) can cause further harm. They are supposed to fit the boy mold and if they don’t… well… — Jan

    Didn’t some Culture Warrior preacher-man recently go on record about “Beat the Fag out of your kid”?

  30. P.S. Jan?

    What’s the difference between “Action Figures” and “adventure dolls for boys”?

    Adventure dolls, like when a little girl in the Eighties named Lauren Faust sent her My Little Pony dolls on world-saving adventures instead of endless tea parties? (And whose reboot of My Little Pony thirty years later as an executive producer for Hub has demonstrated all-ages, both-sexes appeal?)

  31. I also want to thank you again for the kindness that you showed to me. This is a subject that is not discussed well in churches beyond the sloganeering. — Dee

    That’s because the subject is (to paraphrase Malcolm X) the Automatic Red Murder Flag for Christianese Culture Warriors. And “Teh Fag” is the Ultimate OTHER.

    Compounded by the fact that Christians are just as screwed-up sexually as everybody else these days, just in a radically different direction.

  32. I feel really uncomfortable comparing gay sex in a committed marriage/union to cheating, bullying, pedophilia, rape, or personality disorders such as Antisocial Personality Disorder. I responded to a commenter in another thread about this.

    While one might believe that gay sex in this context is sin, it is not the same as sin that harms or destroys another’s life. The lesbian couple and the gay couple I know (along with several others I’ve know throughout the years) have never harmed a hair on someone else’s head. Their relationship to each other is consensual. They’re all adults. They are not exploiting, abusing, raping, cheating, or stealing from each other. In fact, they’re getting to be boring old couples like my husband and me. Haha.

    I doubt many gay people, celibate or not, would appreciate the comparisons of gay sex (especially in a monogamous union) to some of these other sins.

  33. Jan,
    “A form of the lie?” Yes!!! Are you crazy? No. — Dave AA

    Time to trot this out again:

    Every week or two, when reality starts to look like a bad episode of South Park, I call my writing partner cross-country and ask him the same question:

    “Did we go crazy, or did everybody else?”

    And he always answers with the same quote from one of the Desert Fathers:

    “There will come a time when men will go Mad. And they will lay hands on the sane among them, saying ‘You are not like Us! You must be Mad!'”

  34. Mark

    When you use the word homosexual(accepting of the homosexual lifestyle), are you referring to those who are celibate in their lifestyle?

  35. Wendy

    You make an important point. ” While one might believe that gay sex in this context is sin, it is not the same as sin that harms or destroys another’s life.” 

  36. Hi, Dee.

    Has this been hard? I don’t mean this as a dumb question. But perhaps the only answer is “duh”.

    Did you receive undue flack? Or, is it mostly an experience of being turned inside out and torqued in facing something very intense & complex with no easy answers?

  37. @ Jan:

    “I’m talking about how today’s church and society alike emphasize the way a boy is supposed to be and the way a girl is supposed to be – and it starts from infancy. True, GENERALLY there are differences, but the problem is when those generalizations become inflexible rules. Parents’ fear of their boy having feminine tendencies can be harmful; boys who make fun of other boys who aren’t into ‘boy’ things (sports, action figures, etc.) can cause further harm.”

    My mom and I were talking about this other day. She sent an email out to the homeschool group with a link to a Christian website that had book recommendations. The site had a category labeled “For Boys” but no “For Girls.” Mom made a passing comment in the email that she didn’t know why the girls didn’t have their own category.

    That night, she got a brief but preachy response from one of the other moms who has sons, telling her how literature today is so “feminized” and that those parents “trying to raise manly men” want to avoid that stuff for their boys. Apparently, “feminization” of literature is SO prevalent that girls no longer deserve their own category! She then went on and on about how we can’t deny the differences between boys and girls (even though she was advocating having no distinct category of girl books), followed by some lip service to the idea that yes, a girl CAN be interested in cars!!! (even though most people who say this would completely freaked if their daughter actually was). This was all in a tone as if she had to enlighten my mom, who only had a daughter, about the travails of raising Christian boys in such a feminized, egalitarian culture.

    So yes, I agree with you that narrow-minded pink-and-blue thinking usually does more harm than good. Growing up, I was never a tomboy, but I was definitely NOT a girly girl. I wore pants, never played with dolls, and usually made my dinosaurs hunt instead of having a tea party. Because of this, I had literally ZERO female friends locally for all of middle school and half of high school. Then in high school the parents of my guy friends had little mini-freakouts about their sons having female friends, and I barely saw anyone for a year. Sigh. I was never called a lesbian, but I could always tell there was an unspoken agreement among most of the other homeschool moms that I was insufficiently feminine.

    I was that kid who broke/bent the evangelical gender roles and was subtly punished for it. And what I experienced was pretty mild compared to the stories of others I have heard. I responded by growing a thick skin, not caring what they all thought and doing what I was doing anyway, but I’m sure others could have reacted by trying to mask/hide their real interests, turning to dysfunctional coping mechanisms, or heck, maybe even having a gender identity crisis. It could be pretty hard not to when all your interests are labeled deviant and actively hammered upon by your church. Thank God I was moderate/liberal Lutheran and not IFB or patriarchal Calvinist.

    Also, the ridiculous hangups these people have about boy-girl friendships. For instance, last year the sister of one of my guy friends had some major teenage drama at her youth group. She complained on her FB that she should start making friends with guys because girls manufacture too much social drama. All these mothers came on and urged her NOT to make friends with guys! – for completely made-up reasons like, “You can’t have guy friends after you’re married!”

    My mom (married for 20+ years) agrees with me that this is complete crap. If I had followed this (horrible) advice, I would have NO FRIENDS. It’s always been easier for me to make friends with guys for the exact reason this girl said (no associated social politics/drama) – probably a HUGE reason I was labeled sub-feminine growing up. So fat chance I’m gonna drop my guy friends like a hot rock because of some made-up “Christian principle” about boy-girl friendships. I agree that discretion is needed after marriage, but it shouldn’t make you cut yourself off from EVERYONE of the opposite sex you knew when you were single.

    Sorry this is so long but this is my favorite ranting topic. : )

  38. @ HUG:

    “Every week or two, when reality starts to look like a bad episode of South Park, I call my writing partner cross-country and ask him the same question:

    ‘Did we go crazy, or did everybody else?’

    And he always answers with the same quote from one of the Desert Fathers:

    ‘There will come a time when men will go Mad. And they will lay hands on the sane among them, saying ‘You are not like Us! You must be Mad!’”

    Absolutely. And. Totally. Perfect. Description. Of. My. Life.

  39. HUG, Dave AA, Hester,

    Thanks for the reassurance that I’m not crazy.

    Hester, loved your rant. You’re awesome!

  40. Elastigirl

    I didn’t answer your question last night because I needed to assess my thinking. Actually, the flack was less than expected from the outside. The internal flack, my second guessing of myself, my motives, my understanding and, even worse, my lack of understanding all affected me. Even more was my concern that people on all sides of this discussion might not understand my intent or my compassion for all. However, I am doing better tonight and will be back to old Dee by Monday. Thank you for caring to enough to ask. 

  41. You did a FANTASTIC job Dee! There are not many who could handle it the way you did. I could never succeed at this (blogging) the way you do, I too often come off with all the grace & tact of Geronimo raiding a pueblo.

    Speaking of which, I noticed that the haters & the-truth-in-love-inquisitors didn’t descend on TWW like Crusaders & Templars to the walls of Jerusalem. Everyone was well behaved, and unless you got a @$$%-load of hate mail behind the scenes, it’s further testimony of your skill at dialogue. Thanks again!

  42. Hester – I was very much like you when I was growing up, except that in the 1960s, society discriminated against girls with my inclinations. My family – thank God! – did not, but out there in the real world, things were not pretty.

    As for little kids liking sparkly things and bright colors, that is a kid thing and – as far as I’m concerned – has nothing to do with gender. Of course, I was an art major in undergrad, so maybe I see things a bit differently – colors are colors, not gender markers!

  43. Dee,
    I’ve skimmed the recent posts and I have not seen your expectation that only celibacy is permitted withing Christianity. Is that your position–that homosexuals MUST remain celibate? Or, do you feel there’s a place for committed homosexual relationships in Christianity? And, please don’t insult me with the gay “covenant friendships” or whatever silly code names are made up to appear more acceptable to other Christians.

  44. Sometimes, it seems like my train of thought spends more time off the tracks than on them. I can only hope that this makes some sense in the context of this week’s discussion.

    Who has ever changed their opinion based on invectives shouted from a street corner? On the contrary, it’s common knowledge that evangelism works much better in the context of a relationship. While this can be abused – the “heathen” become projects that are dumped after a few months if they don’t convert – I think this can be applied beyond just a method for evangelism.

    That is, a way forward could be through attempting to form genuine relationships with the matchmakers, homophobes, and people who are generally suspicious of all singles. In the context of those relationships, when the other person brings up errant assumptions or stereotypes, I may have a chance at helping them see how those sorts of statements can be hurtful to singles, gay people, or other minorities or marginalized groups (I’ve even encountered a blatant racist in church recently).

    @Justin
    Your book is one that I will be very interested to read when it is available. While my experience bears only a faint resemblance to what you went through, and is nothing by comparison in magnitude, the hurt compels me to want to do something, however small. Change is hard, but your site, and Deb and Dee’s site get us to think about things of which we were previously unaware. Which, I think, is a good first step.

  45. @ Mark:

    I believe in the first post in the series (or one of the earlier ones), Dee stated clearly that she believes homosexual acts are a sin. Also, the term “covenant friendship” as used in the above post did not have a sexual connotation – it was defined as (emphasis mine) “loving but NON-SEXUAL relationships to meet their need for companionship WITHOUT engaging in any kind of sexual activity”).

  46. @ Numo:

    I assume you already know, then, that pink used to be a BOY’S color before the earlier decades of the 20th century? It was considered masculine because it was a “watered-down” version of red, whereas blue was considered feminine because of its association with the Virgin Mary. So maybe all us girls in blue jeans are actually MORE feminine and virginal than our pink dress-wearing sisters. ; )

  47. @ numo,

    I can vouch for this (sparkly stuff & little kids) and I agree. My youngest grandson just looooves girly-wirly stuff. My son and daughter in law are a far cry from the days when he’d be “strongly discouraged” from this behavior as gender inappropriate.

    And if it turns out he’s gay? I’ll love him all the more and be far more concerned with the content of his character rather than his sexual orientation.

  48. @ Jan:

    “I sometimes wonder if the strict complementarian roles-mindset (which I would say is actually quite wordly and defines the vast majority of cultures around the world, though it manifests itself differently in different cultures) is the actual culprit in the gender/sexual orientation confusion which has sprung up in today’s society. Could it, along with ESS and the eery silence on the role of the Holy Spirit which seems to accompany both doctrines, be a form (and I think there may be MANY forms) of the the lie for which the truth of God is exchanged, as in Romans 1:25?”

    I forgot to add this earlier. My personal take on the ESS thing, for what it’s worth (which hey, might be exactly zero), is that comparing gender roles to relations within the Trinity was a non-starter from the beginning, and that both sides should drop it immediately before somebody steps in a big steaming pile of heresy. From what I’ve read, it seems like the egalitarians would be far more likely to follow this advice.

    I don’t think all complementarianism is inherently damaging; however, the patriarchy you are referring to is. Straight kids from patriarchal homes can have some pretty deep-seated problems, so I can only imagine what it would be like for a gay kid. I don’t think patriarchy caused gender confusion – the Fall did that – but it certainly doesn’t help.

  49. Mark

    What in the world do you mean “gay convenant friendships” is a code phrase? You have missed something vital in this entire series. I made my opinions known loud and clear in my first post 2 weeks ago. Read it. I even highlighted it. I repeated them in the course of the series. 

    I feel strongly about the need for something like convenant friendships for all singles-never married hererosexuals, widowed heterosexuals, and celibate gays . Single people are marginalized by the church and they rarely have support groups. In fact, I was so impressed with this idea, I plan to write a post about in the near future.

    Even Paul would not be accepted in today’s “family” oriented churches. In some churches he would not have been allowed to be an elder because he is not the husband of one wife.

    Please understand that I have great compassion for those who, for any reason, cannot or have not married and consequently do not have the support systems of a nuclear family.  So, if you are insulted by this, I do not know what to say except that you appear to have disdain for those who are not married.

     

  50. Mark

    PS You must have skimmed. When I say something, put it on its own line and say”repeat 3 times” I am not being subtle.

  51. To my single friends, I am very excited that my daughter’s upcoming SS teacher is an older never married single woman. She is a teacher who spends every summer on 2 month missions. She has done this for years and loves it. She is energetic, fun and dead serious about following Christ with a full active life. I am so glad these pre teen girls are going to see someone single,older and living out a life for Christ to the full. We need more of such in the Body. Don’t stay in places where you are not allowed to function in the Body with your spiritual gifts.

  52. “Even Paul would not be accepted in today’s “family” oriented churches. In some churches he would not have been allowed to be an elder because he is not the husband of one wife.”

    Ha Ha. I know. Crazy, isn’t it!

  53. “I can vouch for this (sparkly stuff & little kids) and I agree. My youngest grandson just looooves girly-wirly stuff. My son and daughter in law are a far cry from the days when he’d be “strongly discouraged” from this behavior as gender inappropriate.”

    Go buy donuts for a childrens party at church. Have half with colorful sprinkles and half just plain chocolate icing. I will bet my bottom dollar both boys and girls will want the sprinkles.

  54. Hester – exactly!

    It’s a marketing thing – seriously. (Blue and pink, as they’re used now, that is.) I’ve read about how the color associations were changed, and when, and iirc, it had something to do with a department store ad campaign in the early part of the 20th c., but I really need to doublecheck that. (My memory isn’t always accurate with these kinds of details…)

  55. pink used to be a BOY’S color before the earlier decades of the 20th century? It was considered masculine because it was a “watered-down” version of red, whereas blue was considered feminine because of its association with the Virgin Mary.

    The macho middle-aged pastor of a church we used to be members of announced one Sunday that *he* would NEVER be caught dead wearing a PINK shirt and not only that, he would never allow his then-young son to wear pink. When all the deacons showed up for the next Wednesday night’s deacons’ meeting wearing — you guessed it — pink shirts — he got the message!

  56. Wendy –

    You said “I feel really uncomfortable comparing gay sex in a committed marriage/union to cheating, bullying, pedophilia, rape, or personality disorders such as Antisocial Personality Disorder. I responded to a commenter in another thread about this.”

    I agree! I also posted a similar comment on the ‘Side A’ thread. It is unfair and very insensitive for people to equate homosexuality with bestiality, cheating, rape and all manner of antisocial behaviour. These are straw man arguments.

  57. @ Hester: I loved your rant. When you said ‘insufficiently feminine’ I let out a huge snort of laughter, which was, quite obviously ‘insufficiently feminine’. What I always, & very subtley got, was the label that I have a very ‘masculine intelligence’ i.e. logical, clear, analytical & so on…What a load of carp, quite frankly.

  58. @ Anon 1:

    “Go buy donuts for a childrens party at church. Have half with colorful sprinkles and half just plain chocolate icing. I will bet my bottom dollar both boys and girls will want the sprinkles.”

    But they’re PINK sprinkles!!! Shame on you for encouraging 3-year-old young MEN to eat PINK sprinkles. Next think you know, they’ll be doing ballet and other un-manly things! Mark Driscoll would NOT approve. ; )

  59. Another funny story: I’ve also seen a whole table of public school teenagers, when at a restaurant for a youth group function, COMPLETELY UNCONSCIOUSLY make a “girl’s side” of the table and a “boy’s side,” and then each gender (once again unconsciously) order different food – the girls all got salads and the boys all got 1/2 lb. bacon burgers slathered in barbecue sauce. Apparently, “healthy girl food” and “MAN FOOD!!!”

    (Except me. I ordered pasta.)

  60. @ Beaker:

    “What I always, & very subtley got, was the label that I have a very ‘masculine intelligence’ i.e. logical, clear, analytical & so on…What a load of carp, quite frankly.”

    What I saw was a lot of homeschooled girls whining about math and being allowed to stop halfway through algebra I because it “just wasn’t their thing.” They did babysitting instead. Talk about livin’ the stereotype. Also, your experience – if you were female and actually wanted to analyze the Bible to see what it SAID, instead of attending a women’s Bible study where all the ladies sat around and chatted about how Jesus made them FEEL, you were weird. I have had so many theological discussions with roomfuls of teenage boys who all looked vaguely befuddled that I was even there.

  61. A million thoughts, and I can’t pin just one of them down. But maybe that’s best for everyone? 🙂

    But one I do want to TRY and articulate is my appreciation, and deep respect for your willingness to tackle this issue. I’m not a Frank Perretti fan, and I don’t see demons and evil spirits around every corner. But I do think you’ve gone into a pretty dark place, and fought darkness. Satan has used this whole issue to kill and destroy so many lives.

    It’s my feeling that the evil one has the ‘church’ by the throat with the entire gender identity issue, especially in relationship to SSA. “Christians”, for the most part, have been terrified to confront their personal issues with sexuality. They’ve found comfort for too long in hiding behind the constant onslaught on the gay community. It’s become their defense in hiding their own prejudices, fears, and sin. So satan has kept them in bondage, failing to face and conquer their own inadequacies and sin. Whether it’s been in accepting something about themselves personally, or in loving and accepting without condition, members of their own family, or friends. So fear, anger, hurt, and desperation have filled thousands of lives. And through it, he’s destroyed so many individuals, and families in such tragic ways.

    And oh how he’s celebrated the destruction this has inflicted on so many people who find themselves in a life of SSA. Whether that’s been lived out, or acted upon in physical ways. Whether consummated in a SSM, or lived out in lonely, depressing, suffocating isolation. Far too many have fallen victim of the ignorance, fear, and judgement of the people to whom the entire world should be able to turn to, for grace and acceptance. I can’t help but hear his evil laugh as he’s watched so many jump into the darkness of death, because they couldn’t find the love and embrace that Jesus so desperately wants to extend.

    But Dee, you’ve ventured into this area of darkness and evil, and have brought light and understanding that has been so needed! You, and Justin have made great strides in gaining back territory, that Satan has held for too long. My prayer is that your courage and boldness will continue to impact lives. It’s obvious that you and Justin have touched and changed the hearts and thoughts of so many! And I pray that every member of 1st TWW Church will continue to allow these things to impact and change not only US, not only ourselves, but our families, communities, and local gatherings.

    After such a formidable battle with the evil one, it’s only natural that you’ve been inflicted with wounds beyond comprehension. Count on us to pray for you, for your healing and your refreshment. That the Spirit of Truth and Light will continue to strengthen and empower you to battle for the Kingdom of Grace and Acceptance of ALL of God’s children. ALL of God’s children!

  62. @ Numo:

    “I was very much like you when I was growing up, except that in the 1960s, society discriminated against girls with my inclinations. My family – thank God! – did not, but out there in the real world, things were not pretty.”

    My grandma went to teachers’ college in Iowa in the 50s. She wanted to be either an industrial arts professor or an archaeologist. She was told girls didn’t do those things. So I come by the subversive troublesome loudmouth thing genetically.

  63. I’m another whose personality doesn’t quite match what my gender’s meant to be. I take much more after my dad, being more independent, argumentative, and stubborn, and my brother takes more after my mum (who isn’t meek and mild, by any means, but not as outspoken as my dad!).
    Of course, my dad got his personality from his mum, who was fairly stubbornly independent almost all the way up until she died. She lived on her own for a decade after my grandpa died, only moving into a nursing home at the age of 93 because her eyesight had gone too much for her to manage alone. And she grew up with a school teacher and principal father, who insisted his 5 children – including 3 girls – complete all their schooling. In rural Victoria in the 1920s-1930s, that just wasn’t done. The local school didn’t even go past year 9. Everyone thought my great-grandfather was ridiculous for sending his girls away to school because education’s wasted on them. My grandmother then topped the state in the economics exam for the leaving certificate, went to teachers college, and was a single woman travelling around tiny little towns teaching for a decade before meeting my grandpa.
    So really, there’s generations of this independence in my blood, and it doesn’t really match up to the expected way to be female.

  64. Also jack, your comment is excellent. I think you’ve summed up really well the value of this series – I couldn’t say it any better, so I’ll just say Hear Hear!

  65. NSS

    My son loves the prep look in dress. He , along with his friends, have the obligatory pink button down along with a pink bow tie and belt with whales on them.  One local pastor, trying to enact the second coming of Driscoll, quipped in a local church that no guys should wear seersucker and pink because it looks feminine. He, standing up there in an ill-fitting outfit of black and brown on a hot summer day, Meantime, several well-dressed deacons were dressed in seersucker and others were wearing pink. This is the South not a Mark Driscoll cage fight, for crying out loud.

  66. What I always, & very subtley got, was the label that I have a very ‘masculine intelligence’ i.e. logical, clear, analytical & so on…What a load of carp, quite frankly.

    Oh, it hasn’t been subtle with me. I’ve actually had people tell me that. I consider it a compliment whether they mean it as one or not.

    “Insufficiently feminine” – by whose standards, I’m not sure, but yes, definitely.

    Can we form a club?

    I have degrees in “traditionally male” fields, I have always had and still have jobs that are “traditionally male,” and I currently work with all men. It’s wonderful! Men of all ages and backgrounds who aren’t of the fundamentalist mindset who think women are these delicate little brainless twits who couldn’t possibly know anything about technical stuff. I’m actually the most educated and technical of the bunch I work with and their go-to person for technical work. In other words, I’m respected at work for what I know and what I can do, not disrespected because of my sex. We share a lot of laughs over the clients who insist on calling me “hon” or “sweetie” and will ignore me and head straight for the least-experienced man because they think I’m just “the girl.”

    Someone either upthread or on the other thread mentioned all the drama that goes along with being part of a group of women. As much as it pains me to admit it, they sometimes have a point, especially when you’re talking about a group of Perfect Christian Homemakers (TM). I enjoy going to work every day where I’m treated like an equal, i.e. “just one of the guys,” and I know I don’t have to watch my back because there’s someone trying to stick a knife in it.

    I’m sure it would make the PCH (TM) crowd cataplectic to discover that I recently traveled in a car across three states (day trip) with one of my co-workers, a married man. He was a perfect gentleman, his wife knew about it (he talked with her several times during the day and expressed his love for her), and we both arrived home with our honor still intact. You’d think, to hear the PCM (TM) crowd talk, all men are animals just waiting for the first opportunity to take advantage of women. And yet, women are supposed to stroke men’s egos and defer to their “authority.”

    I’ve heard Billy Graham and Adrian Rogers, to name two, say that if they were driving alone down a deserted road and came across a woman they knew (not a stranger) stranded by the side of the road, they’d stop to make sure she was okay but would leave her there alone while they drove to the next town to send back help. Their “reputations” (not being seen alone with a woman besides their wives) were apparently more important to them than the imminent safety of a woman they knew.

    To use a term I often see around here, there’s a lot of cognitive dissonance in all these rules. I can’t keep track of them all.

    Ironically, Adrian Rogers is on TV right now preaching about “roles.” He said, “If this offends you, you can come up to me after the service and apologize, and I’ll forgive you.” Ugh.

  67. @ notastepfordsheep – it has been said to me before & I’m not even in patriarchal circles which shows how prevalent this is. Aged 35 & single I asked an older (& very lovely man) to please stop calling me a girl. It also totally cracks me up to hear some of these churches talk, exactly as you say, as though all men were total animals. Well, the big news is, they’re not – just the ones who’ve never developed any self-control towards women because the women around them had to cover up & shut up in case they tempted one of the poor dears beyond bearing. I’ve also worked with a lot of men (& I also only have brothers) & I become incredulous that some of these Christian men have no idea what women are accomplishing out in the big wide world – not because they’re women, but because they’re talented human beings. And as a non-christian I even slept in the same bed as male friends or boyfriends without having sex with them. It was because they believed in a concept called consent, and also one called men-don’t-only-want-you-for-sex. Those could catch on one day.

  68. New York Times article on changes in Tyler Clementi’s family after his suicide. (Tyler Clementi is the young man at Rutgers U who committed suicide after finding out his roommate had spied upon him/videotaped him.)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/nyregion/after-tyler-clementis-suicide-his-parents-make-painful-changes-in-the-search-for-why.html?pagewanted=all

    His mother:

    “At the time Tyler sat down to tell his parents he was gay, she believed that homosexuality was a sin, as her evangelical church taught. She said she was not ready to tell friends, protecting her son — and herself — from what would surely be the harsh judgments of others.”

    (snip)

    “In the months after Tyler’s death, some of Ms. Clementi’s friends confided that they, too, had gay children. She blames religion for the shame surrounding it — in the conversation about coming out, Tyler told his mother he did not think he could be Christian and gay.

    ‘I think some people think that sexual orientation can be changed or prayed over,’ she said now, in her kitchen. ‘But I know sexual orientation is not up for negotiation. I don’t think my children need to be changed. I think that what needed changing is attitudes, or myself, or maybe some other people I know.’

    She decided she could no longer attend her church, because doing so would suggest she supported its teachings against homosexuality. And she took strength from reading the Bible as she reconsidered her views.”

    My comment: I’m having a hard time containing the fury I feel. Let me be blunt: those who think that GLBT people can just change or be celibate or whatever, hello, these things have effect in the real world. And lots of time, they have serious negative effect. Look at what Tyler Clementi said to his mom. He didn’t think he could be gay and Christian. And even though his roommate spied on him, you don’t think the rhetoric he heard at his church didn’t play a role?

    It’s terrible this mother had to lose her son to suicide before realizing that maybe her religious belief about GLBT persons was wrong. I blame the church for making GLBT persons into THE ENEMY.

  69. Southwestern Discomfort,

    I didn’t realize Tyler Clementi grew up in the church with Christian parents. I agree that the barage of anti-gay messages we hear in church likely contributed to his suicide. This is devastating.

    What Tyler’s mom said reminds me of other Christian parents in the documentary “For the Bible Tells Me So”, who had gay adult children committ suicide. The families share their own journeys and where God took them spiritually, from the time the child revealed he/she was gay through the aftermath of suicide. If you haven’t watched it and decide to look it up, have tissues in hand. After I watched it, I couldn’t stop thinking about it for days.

    With the high rate of suicide in gay teens and adults who are shunned, rejected, teased, bullied, and told they must be celibate and alone for the rest of their lives, I think we can all agree something is very wrong in how the church responds.

    The truth is that all of us heterosexuals with heterosexual children in relationships that are proper in the church’s eyes have no idea what it’s like. A gay person’s desires for intimacy with a person of their gender are linked to their sexuality, a central part of who they are. They may not BE their identity, as my desires aren’t my identity. But there is a strong connection between identity and desires. Can we heterosexuals imagine having our very identity be connected to sin? No wonder there is such hopelessness.

  70. 2-3% identify as homosexual. This is another example of making something extraordinary out of something minuscule and less-than-ordinary. I think you’ve been watching too many episodes of Glee. I did read your one sentence saying you believe the Bible says it is a sin (x3). I doubt the Apostle Paul would have even considered writing about how we should make homosexuals feel more welcomed in the church. This seems just pandering to the culture. Homosexuals are welcomed and celebrated in some churches, such as The Episcopal Church. Maybe that’s where they should attend? Why should they have to worry about remaining celibate?

  71. Mark

    I have to admit that I am really surprised by your lack of empathy. Even your snide remark about Glee is not understandable. My favorite shows are Person of Interest and Falling Skies.

    Jesus spent his days with the dregs of his society. Tax Collectors probably made up an even smaller percentage of the population. And then there was the Mary Magdalen friendship. Prostitutes were considered unclean and terrible sinners. But, somehow Jesus felt that they were worth it.

    In Jesus’ economy, the individual is worth the sacrifice of the Cross. The Bible speaks of the Good Shepherd who runs after one sheep that has gone astray. That is the Jesus that I follow.

    In fact, Mark, in spite of your apparent anger at me and this subject, I want you to know that you are worth it and I pray for you and hope you will do the same for me.

  72. @ Mark:

    “2-3% identify as homosexual.”

    Well, in America alone, that works out to about 6-9 million people. Hardly a small pool to minister to. There are only 1-2 million homeschooled children in America, and yet many conservative churches have special programs to minister to them and their parents. Why should homosexuals be any different?

    “Homosexuals are welcomed and celebrated in some churches, such as The Episcopal Church. Maybe that’s where they should attend? Why should they have to worry about remaining celibate?”

    What if they WANT to remain celibate, and know that attending a church where remaining celibate is discouraged would make that harder for them? Not everyone who identifies as gay/homosexual believes they should act on it.

  73. The Bible defines marriage as between one man and one woman FOR LIFE. When the church comes out against remarriage following a divorce, to make it illegal, and treats remarried people with the same opprobrium that it applies to gays who wish to marry, then perhaps the rest of society can take their stance seriously. Until then, the church is HYPOCRITICAL. BTW, it should also so treat the greedy, those who fail to support the poor, etc.

    It is time to recognize that the church is full of sinners and it should not pick on one group of sinners and not apply the same standards to all.

    BTW, if celibacy is required for gays for life, then it should also apply to the divorced for life, whether or not they remarry, there should be no sex, ever. So if the church preaches celibacy in one case, it should preach it in the other as well.

    Now I doubt any SBC or Calvinist megachurch pastor is going to run off about 1/2 his congregation by telling them that the bible defines sex between a married couple, where one has been married before, to be adultery and therefore SIN. And that the solution is to be celibate when one is remarried or married to a spouse after the latter’s divorce. If the non-celibate gay person is unacceptable to the church because of bible teaching, then the non-celibate remarried person or spouse of a remarried person should also be unacceptable to the church, and should not be a teacher, minister, pastor!, deacon, trustee, etc., in that church.

    Then we can get to the OT idea that sex by unmarried persons constituted the act of marriage. Just let that one roll around in your brain for a while.

  74. Mark, a small percentage doesn’t make it ok to ignore people. I’ll give you a comparison from my own life. I have Coeliac Disease, which is a dietary condition where my body can’t break down the protein gluten. This means I can’t eat wheat, rye, oats, or barley, and if I inadvertently ingest some, it feels like someone’s ripping out my intestines (apologies to anyone eating while reading that!). Coeliac Diseas is estimated to affect about 1 in 100 people, although diagnosis rates are much lower. So only about 1% of people have this condition – is that a reason to say who cares, what’s the point of making special gluten free foods, it’s only a tiny percentage of society that is affected. Of course not! So why is the fact that ‘only’ 2-3% of people identify as LGBT a reason for you to say ‘who cares?’

  75. Dee, to be honest, this isn’t an area I care about or have a deep interest in. I don’t agree with you on this, but you can have your opinion. You think that this is WJWD but I don’t agree. I believe homosexuals stay away from church for much the same reason why unmarried couples who are shacking up do- the know that it is wrong. Gays are welcomed in the churches I’ve known. I also believe that you will not find the celibate gay Christians you are talking about, at least in any significant number.

  76. I have enjoyed this series very much, learned a lot, thanks.

    I found the comments on married with children being the focus of churches funny, but sad. My wife and I, both re-married and never having children, have noticed that in so many ways we just don’t fit the program. Then this last year our church did a men’s group, Courageous thing you know. In the book and during the series there was a one line ‘if you don’t have kids, this still applies in some manner’ – thanks for the token but you shouldn’t have bothered, really, you should not have.

  77. An Attorney -The Bible defines marriage as between one man and one woman FOR LIFE

    Actually no, not even close. First, anyone is free to remarry after a spouse dies (we all know that), a person is not considered married if their spouse leaves them for their faith (also, if the wife is unfaithful a man doesn’t technically sin by remarrying), but, and this is a huge but, nowhere does the New or Old Testament prohibit polygamy.

    I wish it did, as my country is debating polygamy (legalizing it) right now and the Fundie Mormons are at the root of all this. That fact has been pointed out in many blogs. In the NT times an elder could only be the husband of one wife, that would exclude polygamists, men married who were widowed then remarried, and men who were married then divorced and then remarried (if you want to get technical), but no one has to be an elder, so polygamy is permitted in both the Old and New Testaments.

    I agree with your overall sentiment, but the Bible hardly backs up our western notion of middle class nuclear families as the ideal/correct way to have a family (God even kills a man for not doing his duty and getting his brother’s widow pregnant, so how is that for biblical back-up of life-time monogamy?).

  78. bobson, ugh! That line, ‘this still applies to you in some manner’ so dismissive, so ignorant – and so common. And yep, it is worse than not being mentioned at all.

  79. Sorry for chiming in so late – crazy weekend.
    thank you Southwestern Comfort and HUG. You both put into words what I can’t. As a single woman (who is also in love with her two cats), I never did feel as though I fit in at my old church. Being reared in a fundy baptist church, sermons and sunday school was ALWAYS about living the christian life and what you are doing wrong or how to have a strong christian family. I’m sick of it. I even had a family member tell me that their church was going to show a film with Kirk Cameron (yuk) and asked me to come. When I said it had to do with marriage, she said there was info in there for single people too. I felt as though I was being patted on the head!!!!! I stay at home on sunday morning. I go to church here at Wartburg either on sunday or monday. I feel more loved here than anywhere, including my family!.

  80. The paper here over the last few days has been discussing wedding vows and submission (see this article to start with: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/to-love-and-to-submit-a-marriage-made-in-2012-20120824-24ru7.html) The Sydney Anglican diocese has put the word submit back in the wedding vows (it would be optional, but still, submission is being pushed in the diocese).
    Then today there was this article describing mutual submission as a ‘lazy slogan’: http://matthiasmedia.com/briefing/2012/08/mutual-submission/#comment-17448
    The comment policy at matthias media requests people use their full real names, but I know too many people here, so I broke their policy to comment anonymously. I’m not sure if my comment will stay or not, or if it will be engaged with (the one anonymous comment already there – which was mostly agreeing – got a curt ‘please follow our site’s posting policy’, so my critical one is likely to get the same or worse treatment), so here it is below:

    “I know I’m breaking the comment policy here by not using my real full name, but I hope you still publish my comment, because there is a reason for anonymity.
    The issue of the status of women in the church and in relationships is a huge and potentially hurtful issue. I’m normally a pretty self-assured woman, but commenting here, where people could see my real name – people who know me could see me saying something they think is wrong or even heretical – is frankly terrifying.
    I don’t think that I am meant to be lesser than men simply because of my gender. I know those who promote submission say that isn’t what they preach, but that’s how it works in practice. That’s how it has always felt to me – that no matter my capabilities, I’m never to be ‘in charge’ because I have the wrong genitalia. Men are always the leader, women always submit. Sorry, but I don’t think God sees me as less capable just because I’m female.
    I’d also remind you that the second party in each of the three relationships listed was considered property of the male of the household when this was written. Paul elevated women, children, and slaves to a height that was radical for that society. Pushing wifely submission now, 2000 years on, seems like a regression, whereas Paul’s instructions were – at the time – hugely progressive.
    I’ve already said a lot (and given I’m not following your rules I’m unsure you’ll even publish this) but there’s one more thing I’d like to mention. This article and all the discussion on submission and roles always ignores singles. We’re the invisible members of the church, and many of us are getting really frustrated and tired of it. We’re subtly told we’re inferior or incomplete because we aren’t married. Women like me get the subtle message (and for some people, they’re told it outright) that we’re too assertive, too feminist, not the good submissive Christian type. You may not like to hear it, but there are those of us who are in the church but don’t fit the Christian happy families stereotype. And many feel hurt and discouraged and ignored because we don’t see the church acknowledging us. Instead, we see the church getting narrower and narrower in the acceptable ways to be a good Christian. I worry this is pushing people away – I worry it will push me away from the institutional church.
    I’ve rambled too long and too far from the original post, but I hope you do read and consider my concerns, whether you agree with them or not.”

  81. Scooter’s Mom,

    We love you, too! 

    I have just about had it with Kirk Cameron.  Over the weekend I received an e-mail from a conservative organization (that I will not name) announcing that churches can simulcast a message by Cameron in September.  I have not yet reviewed the documentary Monumental, featuring Cameron and David Barton, but have wanted to since last Spring.  Perhaps I will get into that soon.  It is woefully inaccurate!

  82. Pam

    Moderation: Not your fault. It is how how spam filter works. If it sees some links, it holds them. We get hundreds of spam things during the week. So, even if you are a regular commenter, it will go to moderation. As soon as we see something by readers, we approve it. But, we may be out or tied up so it can wait awhile. We don’t want to change it because then we get all those Viagra spammers. 

    If we block anyone due to content, we will put a comment on the post saying we are holding a comment on purpose and then we can be contacted by email. If you don’t see such a comment, your comment is probably awaiting me to get back from grocery shopping.

  83. Maybe someone can tell me where Scripture states or implies that The Family is to be the most important and central icon of the Church or the Kingdom of God. When reading the end if Mark 3, I get a distinctly different impression. Jesus came and interacted with individuals.

    The family is an important nucleous to most of us but the modern church has made it the central apex to how they interact with people. I think it is wrong and is a grievous mistake. It probably started with “Focus” on the Family. Jesus never said to “focus on the family.” The Church is where your mother and brothers are found. I came from a big family and have a husband and children but don’t see them as the apex of my life in the Kingdom of God. I don’t think Jesus viewed his earthly family as central either.

  84. I would like to know how you approach the subject of homosexuality with “grace and kindness.” Often, a weakness I often see in myself and in others is that when I or others try to be gracious or kind, we end up misrepresenting what God has said on a subject. I wonder how often have the words, “you bitch” or “you bastard” come up in our minds when someone cuts us off in traffic or makes us really angry? I have seen this in the most “gracious” people. If we were really honest, no one can call him or herself “gracious,” except for Jesus. My concern is that that even our graciousness misrepresents God, because it does not come from Him, but we talk about it as if it is a positive energy in us to overcome a negative energy in us. This is man centered and unscriptural. Even the TV pastor, whose books hit the best sellers list, is often guilty of misrepresenting God and ultimately being deceptive about God’s character, because wrath and judgments are left out. By the way, I am very kind, in my opinion to a homosexual at work, but I can not call my behavior gracious, when it is not coming from the fruit of the Spirit, but rather a fear to become culturally compliant. What is grace? It is Jesus, who is the author of all grace and truth, will be coming in flaming fire to destroy those who know not God. (Read 1 Thessalonians, Jude) So, my question to all the readers out there is- are you really gracious? Can you really represent God’s character?

  85. Q: Has christianity been taken to the woodshed, lately? Why?

    Q: Has christianity become socially un-acceptable in American society today?

    Q: Will Americans one day vote it (christianity) out of of the marketplace of ideas? Out of sight, out of mind?

    Q: Isn’t Christianity traditionally incongruent with the men lying with men issue? (MLWM) Why?

    Q: When is an impulse a violation of the biblical standard for moral behavior?
    A: Only when it is acted upon?

    Q: Can not SSA (same sex attraction)  be considered a violation of the biblical standard only when acted upon?

    Q: Is not the men lying with men issue? (MLWM) [homosexuality] only a biblical standard violation when acted upon?

    Q: Is not the men lying with men issue? (MLWM)  cultural taboo in traditional christianity? Why? Should traditional christianity accept men lying with men with social acceptance? 

    Q: Is men lying with men (MLWM) an acceptable and beneficial practice in a thriving and heathy culture? If so, how? Why?

    Q: Should SSA (same sex attraction) be considered normal in society in the future, and no different than one’s attraction to, let’s say, food?

    Q: Is SSA (same sex attraction) ok? If so, how so?

    Q: Is SSA (same sex attraction) an impulse, not unlike the human body telling it’s host, it is hungry?

    Q: Is there a moral justification for men lying with men (MLWM)?  Historically? Socially?

    Q: Should the definition of marriage be socially redefined to include same sex, here in the United States? If so how so, and why?

    Q: Should my church open it’s doors to social acceptance of men lying with men (MLWM) as a normal and healthy social behavioral practice?

    Q: Some churches today provide acceptance of men lying with men (MLWM) as a normal and healthy social behavioral practice. Who are they? And why? 

    Q: Should an SSA individual seek out and attend a church that provides social acceptance of men lying with men (MLWM) as a normal and healthy social behavioral practice? Would this correct the inclination of some individuals that grapple with this issue and are inclined towards suicide? 

  86. It is unfair and very insensitive for people to equate homosexuality with bestiality, cheating, rape and all manner of antisocial behaviour. — JJ

    Years ago on another blog, there was a YouTube video of a preacher (a black woman) equating homosexuality with bestiality and rape. Said preacher was preaching sitting down because she was literally too fat to stand up. Video was taken down off YouTube shortly after getting famous.

    I have just about had it with Kirk Cameron. Over the weekend I received an e-mail from a conservative organization (that I will not name) announcing that churches can simulcast a message by Cameron in September. — Deb

    Kirk Cameron, AKA Greatest Christian Actor of All Time (GCAAT), is the poster boy for a type of OCD called “Excessive Scrupulosity”.

    Excessive Scrupulosity is obsessive climbing the Holiness ladder, usually manifesting in paranoia of committing any sin and avoidance of anything that could possibly lead to sin, to the point of many levels of separation. Literally spending 24/7/365 keeping your nose squeeky-clean to pass the Great White Throne Litmus Test instead of living your life. Trying to show God and Man you’re More Christian than even yourself by obsessive devotions and separation behavior, exceeding whatever the standards of Godliness are. The Pharisees of Jesus’ day seem to have suffered from this, elaborating the Law to the point of OCD.

    Cameron is highly neurotic even by showbiz standards, but because his OCD (like St Rose of Lima’s self-destructiveness) fits contemporary Christianese standards of Godliness and Holiness, he’s considered a Great Man-o-God. (Canonized saints are too Romish.)

    Slacktivist theorizes that Cameron was catechized in some sort of Holiness church which defined Holiness/Godliness/Salvation entirely in terms of Thou Shalt Nots. And Cameron went OCD about it after his conversion/catechism.

  87. Val,

    I don’t disagree with your exceptions, except polygamy. The statement that a man shall leave his family and cleave to his wife suggests one wife, and Jesus said that Moses allowed divorce but only because of the hardness of heart of men. But remarriage, except following death of a spouse or one choosing to leave because of the faith, is adultery, so second marriages under any other circumstances should be celibate if the church is to have any consistency. And again, I raise the issue of sex before marriage being equivalent to marriage in the OT practice.

    Churches accept serial monogamous marriages, sometimes four or five and allow the remarried to have leadership positions in the church. To me, that degrades marriage much more than two of the same gender being together in a life-time relationship. And the church, in general, is entirely hypocritical about this issue. Not even talking about greed, avarice, theft (including legalized forms like pay day lending), etc.

  88. @Ironclad

    Q: Has christianity been taken to the woodshed, lately? Why?

    No. There’s a persecution complex among some evangelical and fundamentalist Christians, however. That’s because they believe they’re being persecuted if they don’t get their way. That’s not how it works in a pluralistic society.

    Q: Has christianity become socially un-acceptable in American society today?

    Certainly couldn’t tell that by the number of churches here in my city in Arizona.

    Q: Will Americans one day vote it (christianity) out of of the marketplace of ideas? Out of sight, out of mind?

    Possibly, if the evangelical church continues down this path of hating GLBT persons, supporting creationism, having no problem with destruction of the environment and wanting to be all up in women’s ladyparts.

    Q: Isn’t Christianity traditionally incongruent with the men lying with men issue? (MLWM) Why?

    Traditionally, yes. But chattel slavery was just A-OK with Christianity until about 250 years ago.

    Q: When is an impulse a violation of the biblical standard for moral behavior?

    According to Jesus, you’ve committed adultery when you have lust in your heart (cf. Jimmy Carter).

    A: Only when it is acted upon?

    See above.

    Q: Can not SSA (same sex attraction) be considered a violation of the biblical standard only when acted upon?

    If you believe SSA is a sin, then it’s a sin, per Jesus, when you think about it.

    Q: Is not the men lying with men issue? (MLWM) [homosexuality] only a biblical standard violation when acted upon?

    There used to be laws against homosexual behavior (see, for example, Lawrence v. Texas).

    Q: Is not the men lying with men issue? (MLWM) cultural taboo in traditional christianity? Why? Should traditional christianity accept men lying with men with social acceptance?

    It may be a taboo in traditional Christianity, but I’d also note again that traditional Christianity had no problem with chattel slavery until about 1750ish. There’s still a problem with the equality of women within traditional Christianity even today.

    Q: Is men lying with men (MLWM) an acceptable and beneficial practice in a thriving and heathy culture? If so, how? Why?

    I have no problem with that. I’d rather that gay and lesbian people be free to be out of the closet. I have personal experience with “Christian social engineering”, i.e., encouraging gay men to marry heterosexual women. Nope, not good at all.

    Q: Should SSA (same sex attraction) be considered normal in society in the future, and no different than one’s attraction to, let’s say, food?

    If sexuality is part of who you are, it’s no different than food.

    Q: Is SSA (same sex attraction) ok? If so, how so?

    I have no problem with it.

    Q: Is SSA (same sex attraction) an impulse, not unlike the human body telling it’s host, it is hungry?

    Sexual impulses are part of being human.

    Q: Is there a moral justification for men lying with men (MLWM)? Historically? Socially?

    The moral justification from my point of view is that people are honest about who they are and their sexual attractions, rather than forcing themselves into a box, where they’re not going to fit forever, and which causes great pain to others.

    It took me about 20 years, but as a straight woman who was in a relationship with a closeted gay man, I discovered that I deserved to be loved for who I am, not because it was a task to prove that he could overcome his natural inclinations.

    Q: Should the definition of marriage be socially redefined to include same sex, here in the United States? If so how so, and why?

    Sure, why not? We’ve done it before. Prior to the end of slavery, slaves were not permitted to contract marriages. Prior to 1967, it was illegal in many states for people not of the same race to contract marriages.

    Q: Should my church open it’s doors to social acceptance of men lying with men (MLWM) as a normal and healthy social behavioral practice?

    It’s up to the church. I’m not going to tell them what to do. But I will note that they’re driving younger people than me away.

    Q: Some churches today provide acceptance of men lying with men (MLWM) as a normal and healthy social behavioral practice. Who are they? And why?

    Maybe some churches have come to the conclusion the world won’t come to an end if they accept GLBT persons as they are. You know, kind of like how accepting people of other races won’t cause the church to spontaneously combust.

    Q: Should an SSA individual seek out and attend a church that provides social acceptance of men lying with men (MLWM) as a normal and healthy social behavioral practice? Would this correct the inclination of some individuals that grapple with this issue and are inclined towards suicide?

    If that’s what the GLBT person wants to do. I think most churches are positively UNHEALTHY for GLBT persons at this point in time.

  89. Bridget asked about the churches focusing on the family. I sometimes wonder if it isn’t a convienence issue. Easier to justify more programs and events, excuse to continue in life as it is. A member of our church who is getting ready to go into missions had an interesting take. Many of his friends like to say their call is to raise there children correctly, which seems to mean 3 bed, two bath, two car household. He says he can’t argue with a persons call, but to him it seems a convienient excuse to stay in a personal comfort zone. But then he is one who is a big fan of the ‘Radical’ christianity so ….

  90. To Dee and Mark,

    I do not have time to read all the comments and can drop in only for a little while during my lunch hour today. I would like to comment on Mark’s comment of Sunday, 8/26/12 at 9:44pm, as follows:

    “I believe homosexuals stay away from church for much the same reason why unmarried couples who are shacking up do – they know that it is wrong.” This is blunt talk with strong language from Mark and I would not write it that way; however, Mark’s statement carries a valid point. It reminds me of the verse in 1 John 1:7 “If we walk in the light, as He (Christ) is in the light, we have fellowship with one another…”

    When a person habitually sins in some area (you fill in the blank) she/he does not feel comfortable around spiritual Christians and tend to stay away from Christian fellowship to which God’s children are called. This is a fact I have observed over the years. Some voluntarily left the church when no one bothered them and their deeds were not even known until after their departure. The light exposes the deeds, and Jesus says “men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil.”

    One of the negative effects of Adam’s fall is that we, humans, tend to be lop-sided, some go to the extreme of this side or the extreme of the other side of an issue. I, for one, do not sacrifice the truth (I call sin sin) at the altar of tolerance and compassion NOR do I defend the truth without mercy and compassion. “Mercy triumphs over judgment.” as James says in James 2:13. Jesus eats, drinks and comes to save and not to condemns sinners like me, and I am saved by God’s grace.

    In our society right now, however, I see the trend to be lop-sided on the “tolerance” side and this can anger folks who are strong in truth – very understandable. The good news is Christ’s redemption restores the balance and brings the wisdom from above to us.

    I hope this makes some sense to you. Have to go now.

  91. @ Bobson:

    I can see your friend’s point – lots of Americans do seem to assume a certain level of affluence as a given when it really isn’t. For instance, my family has lived in a 900 square foot house with no garage (smaller than some apartments) for 20+ years, so the typical American 1200+ sq ft house seems HUGE to me, but many people simply assume that much living space.

    HOWEVER. Most people I’ve met who are really into missions – and don’t get me wrong, the church needs people like that – seem to subtly (or not so subtly) treat those of us who don’t feel called to drop our entire lives and move to a foreign country, as if we are wimpy, cowardly or substandard Christians. This is clearly inappropriate. And I am no fan of David Platt – IMO, he tries to induce guilt in people who aren’t poor simply for NOT being poor, when wealth is clearly not forbidden in Scripture.

  92. @ Stepford, Hester, and others,

    The best Mathematics prof. I ever sat under was a woman. If I didn’t know better, I’d swear she was Hypatia of Alexandria come back from the grave. She was born to teach that’s for sure. She had the uncanny knack of breaking down the obdurate concepts into pieces much easier to understand, and in turn, much easier to fit back into the big dense piece.

    She went the extra mile for many of us, and for many of us she was also the difference between success and failure. Contrast her example with the tweedy tenured arses whose only concern was how they looked on the cocktail circuit, and well, you get the picture.

  93. Well done Dee and everyone else for what has been mostly a lively but eirenic discussion.

    Pam, I share some of your concerns about what comes out of Sydney, as I know others do. That is not to say that they have not also done some good work, and I hope that the diocese will swing neither to the left nor the right, to use the OT saying.

  94. An Attorney,

    Whatever Gen. 2 says, the Bible is not consistent with monogamous marriage. Again, in the Patriarch times (Abe – Joseph) marring your deceased brother’s wife and giving her children was a cultural duty supported by God himself – reading the story of Tamar, God is on Tamar’s side, her brother-in-law was not killed for having sex with her, but for practicing a primitive form of birth control with her – the punishment is not for using birth control, but for denying her a child. God expected brothers to take their widowed sister-in-laws and impregnate them. Despite what Gen. 2 says as we look through the Bible we find many instances where this is not commanded. Take Mosaic Law: Deut:22:28-29 demands marriage regardless if the man is perviously married or not. Exodus 21:4 is about Hebrew slaves – the woman must marry whomever she is given to and the man must take the woman as his wife, regardless of pervious marriages (yes, his wife is bound to him if both were taken, but he is under his master in his master’s household and can be married off to another at the master will).

    That is a bit of a fantasy that anyone, including God, was allowing/calling for celibate marriages. Two thousand years of Catholic church acculturation are misconstruing the idea of earlier marriage contracts. A marriage wasn’t a marriage until it was consummated (they had sex) in the Middle East. To this day, many countries hold no official records of marriages, they are family affairs, not legal contracts. This idea that a marriage can be celibate would not have been considered a marriage in those times, since no legal document existed in the Middle East stating a marriage – it was the father’s (family patriarchs, so, possibly, grandfathers) or slave owners who granted permission for marriages, not the state. If a woman refused to sleep with a man, what do you think would have happened? If a man refused to sleep with a second wife – well, we see what happen’s in Tamar’s case – God is on the side of the oppressed, not the western law-abiding (hint: Northern Europe is entirely pagan in the Bible times (matriarchal to boot), nuclear families only exist due to tragedy, and faithful monogamy is about as common as hen’s teeth).

    Paul pushes the ideal as celibacy, not nuclear families with (heterosexual)couples in faithful monogamy. Two thousand years later we think faithful monogamy is what the Bible teaches. It doesn’t. The Genesis verse is not backed up through Mosaic law. The clarification Jesus makes on divorce has nothing to do with polygamy.

  95. SouthWestern Discomfort–

    You are amazing. I would love to hear your story if you were willing to share. You can get my email from Dee, if you so choose. I was very encouraged by the things you wrote. I, too, fit many of those descriptions of a person the church has severely neglected. I dont think I’ll ever really find myself as part of a congregation anymore. I really love the relationships I’ve built online though, and have met people in person and they were even better than I had imagined. As I have experienced here, I think people will most likely experience the community Christ intended in many non-traditional ways.

  96. Josh–

    Your comment reminded me of why I have felt so passionate about this debate with LGBT in the church. As a single person, I have felt this same type of unwelcome.

    HUG–

    I have never spoken to many guys who have felt the way that you do. I really appreciate your honesty. I have found more often than not, that women feel this way, probably because we are often very vocal about how we feel, lol. But it is so true. Once “friends” got married, you were left on the outside looking in. And because marriage is such the idol in evangelical culture, not only are you on the outside looking in, but you are on the outside worshipping at the foot of the idol until they decide to accept you, maybe for coffee or dinner, you know, because they are so busy tending to their marriages.

    You made a comment the other day about this, and it really dug up some places that have received lots of healing. But it was a good reminder to remember how idolatry does hurt us. And we (the church) have a nerve to be focusing on the supposed “idolatry” of SSA, but not realizing how this idolatry of family, fertility and marriage hurts so many people in very deep painful ways.

    I know a woman who’s not single but her husband is ill. I’ve seen how the church has failed to truly care for this couple. She might as well be a widow because she is invisible. And her husband might as well already be dead, because he too, is invisible. This worship, this idolatry only serves the healthy and the haves. But as soon as your situation changes and you no longer fit into that framework, you will find yourself outside looking in, when you were once on the inside looking out and probably not caring about those you left behind to enjoy your new life along with others who are enjoying their abundantly new Marriage-centered lives.

    I am shocked, absolutely shocked, that I am now currently a happy single. I would have never achieved such a state in such an idolatrous culture. It was surely to be the death of my own soul as I was certainly already dead inside.

    Reshaping your beliefs and really considering can lead you to many different places. My mindset is far from traditional at this point in my life. If I get some of it wrong, what could be so much that grace and mercy cannot cover?

  97. For the women here in their 50s who experienced such unwelcome, my heart also goes out to you. I am guilty for not reaching out to such women when I was involved in this type of culture. Not because I didn’t think one had value, but because I was terrified of becoming you. I now see so many reasons for that fear. I could see the unhappiness and unfulfillment of the many, while I couldn’t see that it was the culture of idolatry that was very likely the root of such unhappiness and all the failings as a result of that idolatry. I could often sense the extreme lonliness in you and because I was already there, I feared a future that would be even worse. Being young meant there was still a chance for me, that there was still hope. I put all I had into that but I had come to a point where I realized that there, in that place, it was probably not going to happen for me. Not only because I didn’t fit the mold, but my skin happened to not be the popular color either : /

    How does one spend the majority of their youth and young adulthood, well into 30s trying to force oneself into a situation in order to avoid this apparent nightmare? It was unattainable and the nightmare closer than I had imagined. For some, it really is a matter of life and death when the local church has become your life. You see the relationships you invest in and then are abandoned time and time again. You see the special bond of women who share things like having babies, sex, intimacy and partnership with life that you will never have.

    What precious soul can deal with a burden so heavy as that? I am glad for the freedom I have found and for the scales taken off my eyes. All of life is a good gift; can be a good gift; should be a good gift. I have truly been set free of a burden that was too heavy for me. I have nothing more than compassion and love for my sisters who are in their 50s and dealt with those burdens a lot longer than I did. My heart and love go out to you.

  98. @ Val, who wrote: “…Two thousand years later we think faithful monogamy is what the Bible teaches. It doesn’t. The Genesis verse is not backed up through Mosaic law. The clarification Jesus makes on divorce has nothing to do with polygamy…”

    It makes one wonder if Rahab’s cathouse didn’t do a brisk business even after the conquest of Canaan.

  99. Dee, good post, I long ago came to the conclusion the Bible did not preach North American middle class nuclear families as an ideal to reach for. As a badge to be considered worthy by. I am married and we constantly battle how to not fall for the trap of suburban christianity. I do believe the church has veered way off course. I think part of the huge rise of complementarianism in the church today is a vain attempt to keep a nuclear family middle class ideal that will begin to fade in coming generations.

    It is bittersweet. The middle class is a rare phenomenon in the history of the world. Typically, it is a few well-to-do rich and the many, many more poor. The middle class is a Christian ideal in a way, since it allows many more to have enough, without being the few rich at the expense of the poor. As the economies of the west shrink, the governments try to reap from the dwindling middle class and what you get is a few getting far ahead, others falling behind. The desire to maintain the middle class is already an illusion as debt is really holding the middle class together for this generation (both personal and national debt). In some ways, the writing is already on the wall. Eastern empires are waking up, and jumping into the void the middle class is leaving behind. It is our (collective) fault. We want new homes, furniture, clothes, cheap food, extra curricular activities and nice holidays. As a middle class parent, the only clothes that are truly affordable for kids are made in India, China or some other third world country paying well below minimum wage. Daycares need minimum wage workers to give affordable care so parents can get back to work and actually make some money.

    In the end, the middle class is a dying breed. The churches, who were fed by the middle class, are in trouble. The comps see this, as their churches have begun to change. Young people are going off to university and not marrying, when they finally do, they aren’t returning to those suburban churches. So, the churches pump the family as the ideal. The family is their bread and butter and losing it means their end too. In the bid to hang on to their old “life” they are losing it. People are questioning why the church is being inconsistent towards gay vs. remarried (easy, the remarried still move to the ‘burbs and live a family lifestyle, a typical gay man moves to an urban centre with few evangelical churches), people are questioning why women can’t lead (or even read the Bible in the church) – the men need a role in the church, or they leave -so the saying goes – so in order to make a space for the busy working man who can’t fit weekday morning coffee breaks into his routine, nor can he do week nights or Saturdays since he is busy with family, the Sunday mornings need to be his niche. The comps then cut out the women during Sunday (they can do mid-week coffee) so the men will have a necessary role that his wife can’t do for him (and the family income as a whole will be ten-percented to our church, not just the wife’s half). Works great until the wives can’t fit anything but Sundays into their schedules, then they feel the sting.

    What everyone misses is: Christianity isn’t about the maintenance of a certain way of life. It is about bringing Christ into every walk of life. Yes, the ‘burbs will change, yes, we will lose something in the process. But, Christianity doesn’t belong to the suburbs. It says everyone is equal, even the non-large contributing church members. The singles, the rejected, the non-suburban, the urban gays, are all called into God’s kingdom as much as the suburban husband (remarried or on his first marriage). Where North America is getting it wrong is: never did Jesus say, oh well, you can just add hierarchies (male/female) to keep the local church’s cash-flow in the black, by keeping men in the church through hierarchical roles at the expense of female/non-marrieds. In fact, if trends continue, single women will be making more than married men in the next generation (more women graduate from college, more women taking up well paying white collar jobs such as medicine than men, and childless farther ahead than parents etc.). The churches chasing after the cash will suddenly have a change of heart, I predict.

    All this to say – we are morally inconsistent in evangelicalism because we are trying to mould the Bible into North American middle class ideals. Rather, we should let our middle class ideals be moulded into Biblical ideals – less marriage, more sacrifice, not large birth families, rather large families by adoption, taking in disabled children or adults, more global conscious living (not purchasing products from sweat shops, no/little debt, more emphasis on education than early marriage, more consciousness of what careers to pursue, helping careers rather than multi-level marketing careers, or using the church as a recruitment base for a business, having transferable skills that can be used overseas and at home, etc.).

  100. It makes one wonder if Rahab’s cathouse didn’t do a brisk business even after the conquest of Canaan.

    LOLZ, but also – ouch. Because it’s likely true, even if she wasn’t running the place anymore.

    *

    Eagle – it’s SO good to see you commenting here! And such a relief that you’re home and no longer in an ICU or rehab.

    Many hugs – n.

    *

    Trina – don’t beat yourself up over the thing with older, unmarried women, OK? I guess, being a woman in my 50s and no longer in a church that has such an intense focus on having a family with mom, dad and 2.5 kids, it doesn’t matter so much to me anymore.

    And it’s also very, very nice to be out of a place that only regarded married people as fully adult. I haven’t been a kid for a long time, and hated being treated like one.

  101. Eagle (6:10 PM),

    That’s awful. It sounds typical of an eldership mindset that thinks people are to serve them, not the other way ’round.

    I’ve had two terminally ill children now. My husband and I are long-time attendees and faithful tithers, but not members at our church – a church that HEAVILY emphasizes the need for church membership. (My husband is pretty opposed to the church membership system). It was really hard, as we struggled to keep our heads above water through our children’s enormous needs, to wonder if the reason we weren’t getting the support we desperately needed was because we weren’t members. Also to be asked “how are you doing?” when the expected answer was “fine” and any explanation of our struggles seemed to be heard in a rather detached way. We did receive some financial donations from some individuals there, but not a cent from the church itself. What we really needed was full-time help but none of the daughters were allowed out of their homes on any regular basis. I am still grateful for what we did receive but they were pretty much oblivious to how it just barely scratched the surface. Good people, mind you, but quiverfull-type families have their own needs to meet.

    Thankfully, another (tiny) church which we used to visit on occasion replaced my husband’s salary so he could be with us full-time, cooked us 45 freezer meals, and sent young ladies to help us once a week even though we are nearly two hours away. That church didn’t believe in membership. Ha.

    BTW, we’ve been to church only a handful of times since our last child died. No one checks up on us. No one. It’s kinda a relief though…

    All that to say… I can relate to others like Justin and Trina and Josh and HUG and Bobson and Scooter’s Mom and Southwestern Discomfort who’ve felt like “outsiders” in the church, it’s just been different reasons for me. You can follow all the rules, give all your tithe, believe all the “right” things – doesn’t make you an “insider” if God hasn’t blessed you the way they think He should have…

  102. To end this day I pick two comments, one from Mark:

    “I do believe that the expectation on Christians has grown from being loving and tolerant to being accepting of the homosexual lifestyle.” Two dear friends of mine said similar things to me and I sense their resentment and frustration.

    I get along well with gays as indicated in several previous posts but I also recognize some Christians feeling pressured by the culture and other Christians to accept what to them is sinful. I feel we need to listen to all people and give equal respect to what they have to say to avoid “lopsidedness” as I mentioned in my post earlier today.

    The second comment is from Dee: “Single people are marginalized by the church and they rarely have support groups. In fact, I was so impressed with this idea, I plan to write a post about in the near future.”

    Dee, you are exactly right. The churches I have ever attended have practically nothing to support them. My heart goes out to all singles, young single, old singles, divorced singles, widows, widowers when the church exalts marriage, family, kids… Singles are the most neglected ones in the church of Christ and shame on all of us to let it happen when our brothers and sisters in Christ suffer quietly.

    I look forward to see your post and know you will do a good job, as usual. I believe we extend grace to everyone, not just those who agree with us. Agree?

  103. @ Jan:

    I was afraid, when I started your comment, that you were going to say the elders of that church told you your children wouldn’t have gotten sick if you had been members, or would be healed if you became members. I wouldn’t put it past some of these places.

    Just a quick question – did your church ever compare church membership to marriage? Because some people the PCA church I went to for awhile (but never joined) did that. What this metaphor enables them to say, when you don’t join their church fast enough, is that you just want to “shack up” and are afraid of commitment.

    Of course thinking out that metaphor reveals that it’s ridiculous. Is leaving a church a “divorce”? If so, can it ever be really legitimate? If you visit another church, are you committing “adultery”? And are you some kind of “fornicator” if you visit multiple churches before deciding which one to join?

  104. Hester,

    No, I don’t think my pastor would outright compare it to marriage – but definitely as a covenant. My church has a lot of Vision Forum influence so Doug’s article here is comparable to what my pastor has said:

    http://www.visionforum.com/news/blogs/doug/2007/08/2894/

    And they would have never told us that if we were members our children would be healed – their Calvinism is too consistent for that. (As in, our actions can’t manipulate God into doing things for us).

  105. BUT, there was one person who did insinuate, after our first child died and we found ourselves in massive business debt, that God was teaching us a lesson.

    I didn’t ask him what it was he thought we were doing so wrong but from the condescending body language he always used around us, I’m pretty sure he didn’t think we were doing much right.

    What. Ever.

  106. Jan

    People like that stretch the definition of Christianity. The first thing he did wrong is not to offer you his compassion. The second thing he did wrong is preach Old Testament convenant stuff which was abolished when Christ sacrificed himself. Finally, I wish you had asked him if he would like to have an audio attached to his brain. My guess is he is doing lots of things “wrong.”

    A guy lke him hides his issues by pointing out the pain in everyone els’e life. Deep down inside, he is afraid that he is not saved. The only way, instead of trusting in Jesus which seems to be going out of style, is to point out the problems of others which in his fallen mind “proves” he must be favored by God.

    I am so, so soryy for the death of your child. Such pain is unimaginable.

  107. Jan

    Could you tell us more about your children? It sounds like you have very heavy responsibilities.

  108. Jan–

    I can’t imagine what it must have been/be like for you to have lost two children. My heart goes out to you. May you always be comforted.

    I noticed you stated that you hadn’t gone to church much since the death of your last child. Have you considered leaving altogether?

  109. Jan, I’m so sorry for all the pain you’ve experienced.
    But I’m also so glad for the opportunities the internet provides for sharing stories and fellowship with each other, even as your church has failed.

  110. Dee,

    Both of the children that we had who were terminally ill passed away and are now free from the suffering they endured here on earth. And yes, the responsibilities while they were alive were enormous but I would rather not describe publicly, at least not yet, because I am not ready to identify myself in case any one reading might know who I am. The hardest thing in dealing with their deaths is the guilt – because I feel like I never got to just be their mother. I was their full-time nurse and could not give them the attention they needed. I desperately needed help. Did you ever feel like that when you were dealing with your daughter’s brain tumor?

    You are very perceptive about the man I wrote about above. It is only recently that I realized why he is always pointing out others’ problems under a very poor disguise of compassion/concern (but most often with unbridled disdain), and you’ve just figured it out after my one-paragraph description of him. He has recently gone through some major spiritual abuse (elsewhere) and has toned down his own negativism significantly. It is a welcome change!

  111. Jan

    The guilt that I had to deal with is my inability to be the “perfect” mother to my other children. My daughter’s needs were overwhelming at times and I felt as if I would lose her at any minute due to the diagnosis. My son was born between her first and second surgeries (41/2 months apart). I have so few pictures of him as a baby.

    He had his first ear infection at the age of 2 months. He had so many ear infections that he was the youngest kid, at that time, to get ear tubes (6 months).  He used to cry so much that I installed him on my back with a baby backpack. He lived on my back fort the1st year of his life. I think God allowed him to cry a  lot so I would pick him up and keep him close. Otherwise, I would have been so distracted, he could have been forgotten in the midst of my business and anxiety.

    However, let me reassure you of something. Being a nurse to your children was a holy calling. Florence Nightengale was considered an angel by the many soldiers that she served, bringing them comfort and care in the midst of terrible pain.  They sensed her love, mercy and sacrifice. In fact, I think being a good mother/nurse is one of the most blessed forms of service anyone can offer. One day, in heaven, your loving care will be ehld up for all to see. Old Dee will be giving you a standing ovation! (Look for me-I will be standing next to Johnny Cash and CS Lewis).

  112. Thank you, Trina and Pam. Trina, yes I have considered leaving altogether, yet my husband is unsure and hesitant about “officially” leaving. He has taken a job where he works most Sundays and I’ve been quietly attending elsewhere (at a church that recently chased off a huge band of calvinistas!). What complicates things is that I have a hard time expressing to him just how deeply I believe Reformed theology has damaged my walk with the Lord – and that there are precious few areas of the faith in which I am sure of what I believe now, that I am questioning most everything yet have never felt God’s love closer than I do now. He is still very reformed although not very patriarchal. And I have a hard time getting my thoughts out. So it’s hard, but I am relishing the sweetness of finally knowing that God loves and understands me and really, not much else matters to me in life right now.

    Pam, I too am so thankful for the fellowship I’ve found over the internet. I’ve never experienced anything like it before! I can’t tell you how many times God has used you all here at TWW to show me, “See, I really am Love.”

  113. This just in:

    ————————-
    Caleb Hesse, Anti-Gay Activist and Prop 8 Donor, Arrested for Sexually Assaulting Boys

    A youth volunteer at the Evangelical Free Church of Yucca Valley and elementary school teacher, Caleb Douglas Hesse has confessed to sexually abusing minors since the early 1980s.

    An anti-gay activist and donor to California’s Proposition 8, 52-year-old Hesse was a teacher at the Morongo Unified School District who was recently teaching first grade at the Friendly Hills Elementary School.

    According to KTLA, the incidents occurred mostly during Hesse’s overnight volunteer trips with the church. Hesse allegedly met many of his underage victims during these outings. Authorities believe the most recent crimes occurred as early as last week.

    Held on a $2.5 million bail, Hesse has been charged with four felony counts of lewd acts with a child and was due in San Bernardino Superior Court on August 20.

    Originally admitting to inappropriate contact with minors on August 17, Hesse later retracted his confession during his August 21 arraignment, pleading “not guilty.”

    The San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department is asking any individual capable of providing further information on possible victims to call (909) 387-3615

    Link: http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/crime/caleb-hesse-anti-gay-activist-and-prop-8-donor-arrested-sexually-assaulting-boys

  114. “What complicates things is that I have a hard time expressing to him just how deeply I believe Reformed theology has damaged my walk with the Lord – and that there are precious few areas of the faith in which I am sure of what I believe now, that I am questioning most everything yet have never felt God’s love closer than I do now. He is still very reformed although not very patriarchal. And I have a hard time getting my thoughts out. So it’s hard, but I am relishing the sweetness of finally knowing that God loves and understands me and really, not much else matters to me in life right now.”

    Jan, are you sure you aren’t my twin sister??? I could have written this myself.

  115. That Bad Dog
    You know, that is a disturbing situation with Caleb Hesse that goes well beyond his heinous actions. Why we he an activist? Was he trying desperately to overcome his obsession? Was he trying to conceal it? I will try to follow this situation. I feel a post coming on.

  116. NMP,

    I have often wondered the same thing as I read things you’ve written. 🙂 So much of what you write sounds so familiar to me!

    Dee,

    Thank you so much for your encouraging words – I needed to hear that. Teary-eyed now. I was often amazed at how my two sick children could tell me they loved me with their eyes – like I was their whole world.

  117. Jan–

    Dee beat me to the punch but I will echo her sentiments that you WERE their whole world. You are an amazing mother. I have nothing but respect and admiration for your sacrifice. Caring for children is nuturing them; and tending to them while they are sick is still loving them and meeting their needs and being there for them. At 34 years old, I had a painful procedure recently that I could have opted to have my mother here. But I didn’t want her to take off work to come with me and was like I’m a big girl, I can handle it. Man, was I in there bawling soooo hard. The nurse came in and was patting me on the head and said are you okay? I sobbed and cried nooooo, I’m not okay and I want my momma.

    In retrospect, I laugh and am like who was that big baby. But that procedure hurt and nothign could have been more comforting than having my mom rub my forehead while I was in pain. I just needed to know I was gonna be okay cause for the moment I was simply overwhelmed with pain. We always need our mommas. Next time, mom is taking off work. Seriously.

    I hope maybe, someday, that you could journal all your thoughts over the course of time and maybe present them to your husband. It’s got to be difficult having such thoughts and yet not being able to truly share them with the person who is closest to you. Many single people, such as myself, often make the mistake that marriage automatically has built-in sharing of all things, but we are people who marry other people. All of our needs, unfortunately, aren’t met there, and so I have come to see that it takes a village and community to live a full life. We need circles of friends and people who love us, not just one. I”m glad you have the community here AND your husband. ; )

  118. What Trina said!

    And Trina… you’re so right about needing someone there to just *be* with you, during and after a procedure. I feel you! (Been there, done that – with and without support.)

  119. Trina,

    Ain’t it funny though, when young men are dying of grievous wounds on battlefields or of slow starvation & disease in captivity, it’s always their mommas they cry for.

  120. @ Dee:

    “Deep down inside, he is afraid that he is not saved.”

    …Which is pretty much most Reformed theology through the ages, in a nutshell. At least English-speaking Reformed theology. I realized this after reading a book about the New England Puritans, called Visible Saints, which talked about how assurance/lack of assurance was central to their theology about the church and church membership. Basically, if you were concerned you weren’t saved, then you probably were, whereas if you weren’t concerned about it, you were probably lost. All this in the face of multiple Scriptures where God wants us to have hope and assurance.

    Basically, to the Puritans, assurance was something only older and experienced Christians were allowed to have. (Unless, of course, they were suspected witches, in which case it was all a ploy by Satan…) So all those assurance books/articles/tracts I’d been reading online, which were allegedly designed to help comfort me, were really designed to get me to DOUBT my salvation and thus become holier. Once I figured this out, I lost most of my respect for Reformed theology. They could at least put a warning label on that stuff.

  121. Hester –

    Hmmm . . . what could those warning labels say 🙂 I imagine we could come up with some good ones!

  122. @ Bridget:

    It would be like one of those never-ending side effect lists on a drug commercial.

    “Side effects may include legalism, catechism memorization, endless self-examination, fear of liturgy, and removal of all pictures and/or colors from your sanctuary. In rare cases, may result in more serious side effects such as patriarchy, a cappella worship and family-integrated church. If taking any dosage of Jonathan Edwards, please keep your pastor on speed dial as depression and despair are likely to occur almost immediately.”

  123. Muff, I suspect in death people often cry out to the one they know loved them most. I’ve heard older men killed in battle cry out for their wives.

    I have a confession here. When I was newly married a good friend of mine left his wife and was obviously hurting. I am ashamed to say that I never got back in touch with him, not because of any conscious attitude but because I was so absorbed in being married. Ironically some years later I found myself in a similar situation and realised the hurt he must have felt.

    Re Jonathan Edwards, I have only read his “Narrative of Surprising Conversions” and a couple of other of his writings, which seemed OK to me. However I noticed he seemed quite keen at one point on converts making convenants on how to live, which I did wonder might lead to a legalistic attitude (JE experts, help me out here). But no saint has ever written perfection!

  124. @ Kolya:

    I haven’t read very much Edwards, and I’m certainly not an expert, but what I have read was not good for me personally. Pretty much no matter what it was, it ended me up in the same place: “You’re not saved, you never can be and you shouldn’t even try.” Ergo why I personally don’t read Edwards anymore. It’s one thing to examine yourself (commanded in the Bible), but it’s another thing to deliberately demolish any assurance you do have (when Scripture says assurance is a good thing). I’m sure he doesn’t do that to other people. But that’s what he does to me.

    Of course everything I’ve just said would make a Reformed person say that I should read even MORE Edwards. Because real Christians HAVE to doubt whether they’re saved, even if that doubt depresses you and completely incapacitates you for service, prayer, etc. If you don’t agree, then you’re fleeing the conviction of the Holy Spirit and you’re probably lost (in which case you still need to read more Edwards).

    I too have heard about his thing with new converts, esp. young ones. The youth in Northampton were apparently doing shocking things, like attending nighttime parties with both sexes present. (Gasp!)

    Hope that wasn’t too rant-ish. I really don’t have anything against Edwards – I esp. applaud him for trying out an early smallpox vaccine, even though it killed him – it’s just that I don’t get anything out of him.

  125. Kolya: Jonathan Edwards makes me want to crawl under the furthest corner of my bed & never come out. I wouldn’t have survived long in his congregation.

  126. Beakerj, Hester
    “Sunshine, go away today
    I don’t feel much like dancing
    Some man’s gone, he’s tried to run my life
    He don’t know what he’s asking”
    By (the other) Jonathan Edwards

  127. I haven’t read very much Edwards, and I’m certainly not an expert, but what I have read was not good for me personally. Pretty much no matter what it was, it ended me up in the same place: “You’re not saved, you never can be and you shouldn’t even try.” Ergo why I personally don’t read Edwards anymore. — Hester

    From what I’ve read on the blogs, the consensus appears to be that Jonathan Edwards was Obsessive/Compulsive. I would not be surprised to learn that he also suffered from Depression — “you’re not saved, you never can be, and you shouldn’t even try” sounds like someone in the depths of depression.

    In Scandal of the Evangelical Mind, I found out Edwards was one of the most brilliant men of his time in British-Colonial America, with achievments in biology/zoology and is credited among the founders of various universities. Yet today he’s best known for ONE Hellfire-and-Damnation sermon and that’s it. A Hellfire-and-Damnation sermon that is a masterpiece of essay organization and theme, but for all we know, he might have written that sermon at the bottom point of a Depression. And that Hellfire-and-Damnation is all he’s known for today.

  128. That Bad Dog
    You know, that is a disturbing situation with Caleb Hesse that goes well beyond his heinous actions. Why we he an activist? Was he trying desperately to overcome his obsession? Was he trying to conceal it? — Dee

    Remember Rush Limbaugh? Number-one Fanboy of the War on Drugs while fighting a secret Oxycontin addiction?

    Or Ted Haggard? Preaching on sexual morality (and against Sodomy Sodomy Sodomy) until he was caught with a male prostitute?

    They say a lot of Psychiatrists and Psychologists are crazy themselves, and get into the profession as a way to self-treat without anyone finding out. This would be doubled for Men-o-GAWD who Always Have To Be Perfect Spiritual and Godly 24/7 — whether they believe their own PR or not.

    I said this before about Mark Driscoll and his obvious-to-everyone-except-him sexual obsession. He is The Anointed One — completely isolated at the top. There is nobody who he can go to for help. So he has to self-medicate and self-treat and one day it’s all gonna blow sky-high.

  129. @ HUG:

    “I said this before about Mark Driscoll and his obvious-to-everyone-except-him sexual obsession. He is The Anointed One — completely isolated at the top. There is nobody who he can go to for help. So he has to self-medicate and self-treat and one day it’s all gonna blow sky-high.”

    Yup. Exactly. I don’t know why more people can’t see that Mars Hill is a ticking time bomb. Anyone who stands up in front of a church on Sunday morning (with children present?) and goes on and on about blood circulation during foreplay, all while passing it off as a “sermon,” has a problem.

  130. Hi guys,

    Thanks for the heads-up on Jonathan Edwards. I can appreciate what you’re all saying. It is true that “Sinners In The Hands of an Angry God” does come up a lot in connection with his name. However a book on the history of Christian thought also talks about his relevance to revivals and distinguishing the true and the counterfeit in them, which I think is very relevant today. But I think I might have sided with Hester and Beakerj if his writings on Christian assurance are as they say.

  131. Hester @ 8:51 –

    I was thinking of the one-offs, but you probably capture it best — the long list of side-effects that leaves me saying why would I ever swallow that pill!

  132.      Hello, 

        I am somewhat concerned with the stories that have come out of Brighton, UK, (and other places also) over the years. With a 1 in 8 Gay AID cases having been reported, with some 600+% increase of reported Syphilis cases, one must stop and consider, with sexual disease on the increase, is this telling? Was God trying among other things in the Old Testament, to protect His people from disease? If someone acts upon an SSA condition could this mean possible illness and/or death? We have already heard of associated drug use cases, and the effects of depression associated with this lifestyle.

    A sadness to consider?

    IronClad

  133. @ Ironclad: those diseases afflict all who have unprotected sex with infected partners, not just those with SSA. You don’t even have to have penetrative sex to pass them on. I think the depression is probably more to do with the confusion & rejection those people who deal with confusion over sexuality eperience.

  134. @ Beakerj:  So ultimately, as you say, the concern is with behavioral unprotected sex in Brighton, not necessarily associated with SSA. So the issue in Brighton becomes one of education and prevention? 

  135. Is active SSA becoming a “confusing” reality?

        Hello,

    Urvashi Vaid said in 1995: “We have an agenda to create a society in which homosexuality is regarded as healthy, natural, and normal. To me that is the most important agenda item.” 

    Yet today, it is reported that debilitating illness, chronic disease, psychological problems, and early death suffered by those with active SSA is apparently progressively becoming the legacy of this movement?

    There are those that are now portraying the active SSA lifestyle as normal and healthy, and insist that active SSA relationships are the equivalent in every way to their OSA counterparts.  Is this so?

    Does Hollywood and the media appear to present the image of the fit, healthy, and well-adjusted gay person? Is this true?

    This apparently “confusing” reality is now statistically appearing quite alarmingly opposite to this caricature which was fairly recently (in 2000) conceded by the gay newspaper New York Blade News:

    “Reports at a national conference about sexually transmitted diseases indicate that gay men are in the highest risk group for several of the most serious diseases. . . . Scientists believe that the increased number of sexually tranmitted diseases (STD) cases is the result of an increase in risky sexual practices by a growing number of gay men who believe HIV is no longer a life-threatening illness.” Bill Roundy, “STD Rates on the Rise,” New York Blade News, December 15, 2000, p. 1.

    Should this be of concern, and something to consider?

    IronClad

  136. Is there a correlation between active SSA and disease?

        Hello,

    “According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the sexually transmitted disease, syphilis, has skyrocketed among men engaging in homosexual intercourse—from 5% in 1999 to 64% in 2004. Dr. Ronald O. Valdiserri, acting director of CDC’s HIV, STD, and TB prevention programs, emphasized the need to prevent outbreaks: “Syphilis increases, especially among men who have sex with men, demonstrate the need to continually adapt our strategies to eliminate syphilis in the United States” (“New CDC Data…,” 2005). 

    Dr. Dave Miller: “However, as usual, ‘strategies to eliminate’ do not include the only rational, moral solution”: 

    “Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body” (1 Corinthians 6:18).

    “Only the directives provided by the One who created human sexuality can solve the nation’s problem of widespread sexually transmitted diseases. He prescribed one man for one woman for life (Genesis 2:24). He insists that, 

    ‘because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband’ (1 Corinthians 7:2). 

    “If Americans would return to the Christian value system, most of our national woes would dissolve.”  “Dave Miller, Ph.D.”, Apologetics Press, Inc. 

    Something to consider?

    IronClad


    Reference:
    ““New CDC Data Show Syphilis Increasing in Men” (2005), Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, November 8. “

  137. In the hetero world, there are people (mostly males) called “players” who seek to have sex one time with as many attractive partners as possible. In the SSA world, there was the “bath-house” culture, which is a similar phenomenon. In both, the use of condoms greatly reduces the transmission of disease. In both, the greatest risk of transmission is to the person in whose body the infected material is deposited, and the depositor has a substantially lower risk (but higher than having had sex with a non-infected person.

    BTW, the article you cited, which is dated, was in a SSA oriented publication!

  138. We also need to keep in mind that there are loyal one-partner SSA relationships and even committed gay relationships in which sex does not occur, just as there are OSA relationships that are loyal and some that are functionally celibate.