Tonight, our local television station did this report on Don Cameron's situation. Dee thinks there is a vital thing missing in the pastor's narratives. So, this is a quiz. See if you can spot it and make a guess in the comments. Regular readers of this blog will probably notice it. Dee will weigh in tomorrow afternoon with the answer. Hint: It is something that Dee kvetches about regularly.
Click here if you can't see the above video.
Spoiler alert-Answer below -Sat 8:30 AM
I knew I could not fool the readers! Yes, there was no mention of the victims and no mention of outreach for the victims. Must I stand on my head, scream or what to get pastors to recognize that victims should be first, and foremost , in their hearts and minds.
In the interest or education, here is statement that pastors should keep by the phone for the next time a pedophile (and one will) causes waves at their church and the media comes to call.
"Our hearts go out to the victims of (insert name of pedophile). Our church stands ready to offer support and counsel for the victims and their families. Just know this, we will praying for them in our services ."
And then go out, find them if they will see you and do something kind like bring a plate of cookies and some love.
In case you, pastor, are not feeling it, close your eyes and think about what you would do and think if your children were molested. My guess is that comforting the pedophile would NOT be the first order of business.
Well, it seems he has neglected to assure the press that they have reached out or been in contact with the family of the victims to express their heartfelt sorrow over what has happened with a desire to minister to them. Only a concern for the one who violated the boundaries set for him.
Of course – don’t even need to watch to guess that (but I did just make sure). No talk or concern for past or potential victims….
Not a word about the victims.
I visited Church of the Apostle’s for a while. I don’t go there now but am still on the email list. When I received Patrick Dominguez’s email, my first thought was, “Here we go again. The church leadership gathers around the pedophile to reach out to him but, in their naïveté, they end up enabling him, children are hurt, and little, if any care, is shown to the victims and their families.” In the video, Patrick talked about reaching out to Don Cameron but nothing was mentioned about reaching out to the victims and their families (thus violating TWW’s prime directive: always show concern for the victim). However, I still have hope that Patrick will do the right thing. But first, a little background.
I was a member of Providence Baptist Church in Raleigh, NC for 25 years. This is the Baptist church Dee referred to her posts where the church responded inappropriately to warnings about a potential pedophile, children in the youth group were severely molested, and said pedophile is now in jail. (You can find out more information in “Wonderland” posts under the Categories heading.) The congregation was only told bits and pieces of what happened and the church’s response in order to “protect the victim’s privacy.” I was quite disturbed by how the church was handling the situation. The secrecy kept church members from being able to embrace and minister to the victims and their families. I also sensed the victims were not getting the professional help they needed. I knew several people in the “priesthood of believers” in that church (including myself, a mere woman) who could have helped the leadership respond appropriately to the both the pedophile and the victims/families. Unfortunately, arrogance was alive and well among the leadership involved. I have learned the rest of the sad story from Dee and Deb.
So, back to Patrick Dominguez, Don Cameron’s pastor. In contrast with what I experienced at PBC, Patrick is not arrogant and he seemed to care about my pain. I do think he is somewhat naïve and lacks knowledge about how to handle situations like this. He was clearly wrong to ignore the repeated warnings/pleas from Dee and wrong to not make sure that Don Cameron was following all requirements put in place by the church. Time will tell whether he learns from his mistakes and whether he will step up to the plate and reach out to Don Cameron’s neighbors and the victims and their families. He could have a powerful ministry if he does or deepen wounds if he does not.
This issue with pedophilia is not like sex outside of marriage or even homosexuality because those things are done with those that consent. Pedophilia also seems to be something that is deeply psychological. Of course that pedophile has forgiveness in Christ but I don’t think that that forgiveness means that Christ wants his church to let them loose to prey on others. If churches had a lower view of man, meaning that we are not morally neutral agents, perhaps that wouldn’t be so quick to say “oh he is better now.” He confessed so now we can move on.” The funny thing is Calvinista beleive in Total Depravity but their practices sure do seem denounce what they say on paper. If they believed we were as evil as they say, they would never let a pedophile anywhere near children because saved or not, the pedophile would/could always revert back.
Is there any kind of training course pastors can go on to learn how to deal mwith situations like child abuse, domestic violence etc? Don’t they teach that kind of stuff at seminary?
Patrick Dominguez has been judged not up to the standards established by Dee, Deb and the Wartburg commenters. – dryly
I would not want to attend the Church at Wartburg where criticism of others is encouraged.
In SGM churches they referred to it as “sin sniffing.”
Jimbo –
I would not want to attend a church where criticism is not allowed.
In my book it’s referred to as “brown nosing”.
Jimmy – what purpose DO you serve here? Where is your love? I confess that my love for you flags woefully when I read your comments.
And I notice Jimmy that you don’t show much concern for the victims either…If pointing out that the vulnerable hideously-abused little ones Christ is so fond of should be thought of before their adult abusers is criticism, bring it on! Have you ever spent any time with an abused child? Have you ever seen what their lives can become becasue of the abuse? You just make me angry with these snide comments, which seem to indicate that the status quo of enabling abusers in churches, by silence & ignorance, should continue.
Plus – did you just not ‘sin-sniff’ here at TWW? If it’s good enough for you to criticise those here, why can’t TWW point out something blindingly sinful? And yes, I’m a sinner pointing out others’ sins while the log in my eye chafes – deal with it. Sexual abuse is like a whole forest, not just a speck.
Let’s say it clearly- victim victim victim – if you show more concern for the child sex-abuser than the victim your priorities are wrong. I long for the day I hear christians say, ‘We are doing all we can for the victims & their families. As Christians we will also being doing what we can for the abuser, based on the fact that we believe God can forgive & change anyone’. Protect the victims, help the abusers…how hard is that?
Jimmy
Do you treat your wife like this? You did say you were married.
And, I am trying to change business as usual in churches. What exactly are you doing? It seems, if I remember back to a year ago, that you were not much appreciated by some in your church if their comments here reflected things. You apparently caused quite a bit of turmoil. That is not something I wish. Turmoil for turmoil’s sake.
Now let me speculate on you a bit. In your comments, you have made it perfectly clear that you do not like victims. And do not protest. Your words speak for themselves. In fact, I could put up a montage of your comments. It is evident why you are commenting on this one because the TWW community understands the lack of expression of concern for the victims. You do not like “victims.”
I want you to start showing a bit of compassion. Just a bit. If you do not, I will start playing the “Where’s Jimmy” game.
I wonder whether Jimmy has kids or a dog.
Churches really do not understand the pedophile thing. Our church has a child protection policy in place, and anyone who works with minors of any age must undergo yearly training. Things like if you work with teens, never give an opposite sex teen a ride home without others in the car. Or if you work with toddlers, adults always work in pairs. Stuff like that. But at the last training, when I asked what the church would do if a child reported that an adult member molested them, they gave the wrong answer. They said it would be handled as a Matthew 18 offense. Arrrrgh!
Leila, that means that such a situation may have already arisen in that congregation and been mishandled.
Who knows?
Maybe that is why they have such prevention measures in place.
I hope you protested their wrong response to your question. It isn’t just a misguided misiapplication of Scripture, it is stupid in every way and most likely criminally illegal.
Jimmy reminds me of my husband who suffers from empathic failure. In my husband’s case, early porn exposure (among other things) broke his empathy and warped his view of women and children.
Hopefully, Jimmy has a wife who is aware of her spiritual authority to stand up for herself and protect herself and the children as needed.
Silence and disrespect the voices of women and children and the church (or the society, or the home) quickly resembles hell more than heaven… Just sayin’
I’ve been reading TWW for quite a while now, commenting for only a short time… but I have an observation about Jimmy.
It seems as though Jimmy feels that the only victims in these situations are the accused. He has nothing but scorn for those who have been hurt, and his heart breaks and bleeds for the ones who are being held accountable for their actions.
“sin-sniffing”? Really? Patrick Dominguez fumbled this one, badly. Being ordained does not = being trained in how to counsel a man with a warped sexual attraction to children.
I believe he attempted to do the right thing in having parameters and boundaries set up for Cameron, but he failed -badly- at ensuring those boundaries were followed.
I’m just glad no other children were (this is going to make Jimmy’s eye twich) *Victimized* by this predator. At least, I hope not.
“They said it would be handled as a Matthew 18 offense.” – Leila
I hope they mean this part of Matthew 18:
Causing to Stumble
6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away.
But I do not think that is the part they meant. (I once had to memorize Matthew 18:1-14 for a course in child evangelism.)
David Instone Brewer say the word for stumble (skandalizo)in Matt 18:6 is usually used as an euphemism for sexual acts, and Jesus was condemning child molesting in the passage.
Retha,
What you stated makes so much sense. Violating a child sexually has to be the worst thing an innocent young person can experience.
The more these tragic situations play out, the more I understand why Almighty God worked through Deborah in the book of Judges instead of the religious leaders of her day. History has a tendency to repeat itself.
Charis- I think you’re observation of Jimmy is spot on
Dee and Deb- I commend you for your bold and forceful criticisms about the issue of abuse. I think that people who are wishy-washy, unclear, double minded or cryptic in their communication (mysterious, obscure, speaking indirectly) are really not worth listening to because they are not sounding alarms when alarms need to be blaring. (If abuse of children does not constitue sounding an alarm, what does?) They either do not care much about the issue, although they say they do, their actions do not match their words and they possibly just wish it would all go away, or they rather enjoy (imo) being cryptic for its own sake…for fun…somehow proving to all what awesome, witty and winsome thinkers they are. Either way effects a journey to a cold and loveless dead end, imo. Hardening.
I guess when you sound a clear alarm, you can be labeled divisive, unloving or critical. Those who do sound these alarms (critisms in Jimmy’s view) are more interested in protecting the young, the abused, the powerless and the trampled upon, more than protecting those who abuse, hurt, lie, take advantage of or use.
Ephesians 5:11 “Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;”
“Not only “have no fellowship, but even reprove them,” namely, in words, and in your deeds, which, shining with “the light,” virtually reprove all that is contrary to light” (Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary.)
One person’s criticism is another person’s sounding an alarm…is the bible’s exposing and reproving evil.
If the pastor and church would have been honest with the entire congregation about the fact he was within their fellowship? He would have had the proper accountability that they speak of. Instead they tend to tell you later with a side note of ‘grace to sinners’. They don’t have much faith when it comes to their members, and I’m sure feel it would be to much work, might lose membership,etc. They don’t wish to deal with that. They have to realize this is INDEED how it looks!
You have to wonder if they don’t contact the victims/families because they wonder if they would not be able to give ‘grace to sinners’ afterwards as well. Also, it is a possibility that the word would leak out that they wanted to keep from others about his presence there. They show the victims are instead taking sides, and are enabling the silence. They don’t stop to think far enough ahead as to what would happen within their church if this man hurts another child within that church.
They would know how to biblically counsel, support, help all parties if they were open with their congregation, victims, and x con. Of course they would have to step outside their Christian bubble, and seek help from outside sources and deal with those that are now scared to come to church. Their leadership position – due to pride – would be in question because people aren’t following along. Their ‘people’ aren’t doing what they should, and might feel that reflects about their leadership. Their own self protection is more important than what God asks of us.
We are to bring the truth into the light, and yes some will struggle with it. They seem to forget that its also an opportunity to grow, minster, and give ‘grace to sinners’. I have no doubt some members would reach out to the victims under those circumstances. Why? They have been there, and want to help. The same could happen for the perp if a family had perp’s in their family history.
Churches tend to act this way due to fear, and to me honestly don’t show the faith they are too show as encouragement to others. Allow the chips to fall where they may when you do the right thing. Don’t they feel God would be honored by this, and not allow his will to be done? God wants to change you – are you to scared to allow him to do so?
Sadly, their actions show that fear runs their life in areas they don’t wish to acknowledge.
I haven’t commented on the last few posts, because I’ve not had anything substantive to add to the generally excellent (with one exception) commentary.
However, after thinking about this in the shower (I do some of my best thinking there), I have to wonder if the behavior we’re seeing here from this pastor, and which we’ve seen in the past from other church leaders, isn’t perhaps a manifestation of the religious power structure in those churches? Let me explain.
In a lot of these places, you have an unspoken doctrine that places human males (as best exemplified by the incarnation of Jesus Christ) as the pinnacle of God’s creation. Women are definitely second-best, because we succumbed to temptation and then, in turn, tempted Adam.(1)(2) Children come third, obviously because they’re younger, smaller and weaker, and can be ordered around. But even among children, there’s a hierarchy, where the boys are treated as future men, with all the privileges that come with being male in a church where a human male is also worshiped as God, while girls are treated, as, well, fourth class.
Consequently, when it comes time to believe someone, if you’re in a situation where the voices and opinions of men are nearly always privileged over those of women and children, the women and children are nearly always going to lose. And the men aren’t going to see the problem, because their worldview implicitly devalues the words of women and children. This also applies to sexual assaults of boys and young men–they’re not full adult males, so their word can be discounted as against the word of the fully adult male. And we’ve see this over and over again, not just in churches, but also in the secular world.
This is not anything new. In Luke 24 it says:
9 When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. 11 But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense.
“[T]hey did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense.” Isn’t that the way it is all too often?
———-
(1) I don’t believe in a literal Garden of Eden scenario at all. At best, it’s a metaphorical explanation for the world we live in.
(2) Apparently, Jesus died for Adam’s sin, but Eve’s sin? Not so much, as the church power structure implicitly continues to punish women for Eve’s sin.
Have I got this right?
-Looks like 3 1/2 years ago Pastor Older asks Pastor Younger to do him a favor and accept Pedophile (who was previously attending Pastor Older’s church) into Pastor Younger’s congregation.
-Pastor Younger apparently likes Pastor Older and graciously/naively accepts Pedophile as a member of his congregation.
-Pedophile recently starts acting up, risking potential abuse of children at Pastor Younger’s church.
-Pastor Younger tells Pedophile to get lost (see email), and gets to be on TV defending his gracious behavior to Pedophile (while still failing to mention the abused children).
Two thoughts:
1) On the surface, seems like Pastor Older may have won this deal. That pedophile is out of his hair. The ultimate dump on Pastor Younger. Could Pastor Older be wondering of Pastor Younger…”How do you like me now?”
2) Having been dealt the pedophile “hot potato” from Pastor Older, all Pastor Younger would have had to say to the reporter was “our hearts go out to the abused children and
their families”. Regretably, all he talks about on TV is the pedophile, thus breaching the prime directive of TWW.
As a physician, I have found that if I keep my eye on the patient’s interests, everything else seems to work itself out. In this case, the “patient” is the abused child.
As of now, neither Pastor Older nor Pastor Younger seem to get it…too busy covering their tracks to worry about the abused.
What a pair of knuckleheads!
In the end, both of these pastors are loosers until they feel the pain of the abused children and get with God’s program. Will they ever get it?
Dr. Jon
My BS meter is through the roof right now. This was a witch hunt, plain and simple. You accuse the pastor of not taking this seriously? On what grounds?
This man has done nothing criminal and it appears this is just vengeance and restitution. I think the pastor acted appropriately, did what he should have done. Sometimes it isn’t about the truth, but about the media scrutiny.
You wanted him out of dodge? You got it. How careless it is, though, to judge someone’s heart.
@ Southwestern Discomfort ~ The Almighty chose the woman’s genome (no human male DNA involved at conception) to bring Messiah into the world in order to destroy the works of the Devil. Is it any wonder why the powers of darkness hate women the way they do and even influence the religious to be their toadies?
So Mark –
If you keep telling someone that you love them, but are never available to interact with them, should they not judge your actions not lining up with your your words?
We are not really having “good” intentions if we don’t live those good intentions out. I think that is just having empty words. This pastor said nothing about the victims. He only spoke about the abuser. Who should take the center of our attention in abuse situations?
This is an opportunity for this pastor to learn something. I’m beginning to think that pastor’s get some kind of pass on future character growth and learning due to their title. Hopefully this one does not feel that way.
Mark
Huh? Who wanted who out of Dodge? Media scrutiny? If there as no media scrutiny the neighbors would still be worrying about a pedophile. With pedophiles, actions are what matters.
I’m going to throw in a dissenting opinion here.
First. The kids are the most important thing here. No question.
Second. Patrick didn’t seem to handle this entire thing the best way possible.
Third. (Dissenting point) We have no idea what all Patrick said to the TV reporter. What we saw in the clip was an edited interview. His statements could have been for 5 minutes or 20 minutes. All we saw and heard was what the local new editor decided to put on the air. And in many cases what goes on the air is what they feel will most attract viewers (and thus let them sell ads). Patrick may have never said anything about the kids. Or he may have spent most of his time talking about the kids. Unless we get a statement from him or the un-edited version of the interview we will never know.
As a side comment 60 Minutes has a policy of not wanting the people they interview to have a copy of the interview. They fight hard to avoid allowing it. And if they must they work real hard to make it not usable. Flunkies will stand in front of the camera, someone will accidentally unplug your mike. Power cords will get unplugged or go missing. The point is they, 60 Minutes, does not want there to be an alternative interpretation to theirs for the programs as put on the air.
I watch the news on TV and I watch 60 minutes. But I always keep a mental dose of salt nearby for any interview or analysis presented.
To most people in the “church,” victims of any kind of abuse need to just “suck it up,” “pull up their boot straps,” “forgive and forget” and “get over it” because what happened to you wasn’t that bad. Other people have worse problems than you and yours don’t matter.
Many people who claim Christ lack sympathy and compassion. It’s because they simply don’t care and are self-focused(narcissistic). They are not able to put themselves in others shoes. My conclusion is that they truly don’t know Him.
Lynn
OK, I’ll write the reporter and ask her if he did say something about the vicitms. I bet she would have reported it because of her own interest in such matters. Now, if she says he did not say anything, are you then going to say that you don’t believe her either and give stats about lying reporters? Better yet, it could be a camera man who is actually the culprit, undermining the reporter in this instance, cutting off the pastor because he is a lying atheist out to “get the pastor.’
Frankly, there have been many, many reports about various pastors supporting pedophiles and child pornographers which do not mention concern on the part of clergy about the victims. So, there might be a vast mediaconspiracy that I can discover that would blow lid off this whole thing. All reporters are now refusing to publish anything a pastor says about concern for the victims.
Also, if a reporter did not express my concerns, a swift call to the news station along with a threat to sue often results in an addendum the next evening. I have yet to hear one of those addendums regarding a pastors’ heartfelt concern for the vicitms.
If, as a member, you have a problem with the pastor not addressing the victims- then leave! Find another church.
Quit judging the man who had every legal right to move back into his own home! The media attention is what drove him to leave and it was those who claim to be Christian who gave the media the story. There are many here who are quick to cast aspersions.
What he did was sinful and immoral AND he paid the penalty under the laws of the land. Yet, you continue to infer he is continuing to molest children again. What proof do you have? I see nothing in any of this to suggest he was. So, your allegations are distasteful. Shame on you.
Now, if she says he did not say anything, are you then going to say that you don’t believe her either and give stats about lying reporters?
Not at all. But I’ve personally been at events and things where interviews were done. And while no on lied or mis-quoted anyone the report later on the news has left out things. Sometimes for time constraints. Some times to make a story juicier. And at times to present what I have to feel is a personal agenda. When Wake County Schools had a public hearing on sex ed curiculum about 10 years ago I was there. I later saw it on the news. No lies were spoken. But certain words were used as prefixes such as fundamentalists and conservative church members and progressive that tagged each side in the story even those those words were never used in the hearing. Plus they really only presented one side in a positive light and ignored the other side in much of the story. Again, not false statements were made but the editing of the story as presented did NOT give many people an accurate impression of what was said and how the hearing went.
All I’m saying about Patrick is we don’t know if he mentioned the kids or not. It is obvious that his statements were edited by watching the clip closely. Whether or not points he wanted to make were dropped or it was just removing flubs we don’t know.
But again, I’m not defending him. Only stating there’s a difference between what we know for sure and what we think happened.
“What he did was sinful and immoral AND he paid the penalty under the laws of the land. Yet, you continue to infer he is continuing to molest children again. What proof do you have? I see nothing in any of this to suggest he was. So, your allegations are distasteful. Shame on you.”
How many kids had to be molested before he was caught? What proof did people have then? To say such pedantic things you know nothing about how pedophiles groom their victims or how they operate. And if you do, then shame on you.
He should be in prison for life. A life sentence just as the victims got because this will not be erased from their minds until Glory. Can they overcome it? Yes, but don’t put that burden on them. Look to the victims…PLURAL….. instead of feeling sorry for the perp who obviously does not mind being around his victims. That says a lot about him.
If the pastor had mentioned victims, people might conclude that this man had molested more children, which isn’t true and would constitute slander and false allegations.
“My conclusion is that they truly don’t know Him.”
Bingo! If they did, they would be standing up for the victims and furious over his short prison sentence. You know what gets me about this story. This man was a professing Christian WHILE he was molesting children. He was volunteering in a Christian school and in a church. All the while molesting children. Gee, was the Holy Spirit on vacation during those molestations?
What part of this do people not understand?
“If, as a member, you have a problem with the pastor not addressing the victims- then leave! Find another church.”
Mark, this presupposes it is the “pastors” church. A typical view.
“If the pastor had mentioned victims, people might conclude that this man had molested more children, which isn’t true and would constitute slander and false allegations.”
Mark, are you claiming this pervert criminal only had one victim?
“The Almighty chose the woman’s genome (no human male DNA involved at conception) to bring Messiah into the world in order to destroy the works of the Devil. Is it any wonder why the powers of darkness hate women the way they do and even influence the religious to be their toadies?”
Yes! And it has been this way since the fall and what God said in Gen 3!
Mark
The discussion was about the neighborhodd in which the pedophile was residing and HAD molested. The pastor could have mentioned those documented victims. Look at the original report. The nieghbors were beside themselves. The father of two daughters who were molested was interviewed. It would be so simple to say “Our hearts go out to those in the nieghborhodd who were molested.” No slander involved.
“It would be so simple to say, “Our hearts go out to those in the nieghborhodd who were molested.” No slander involved.”
Who is this referring to? If he had he said that it could have appeared that Don had molested more children recently, giving the impression that is why he was being forbidden from going to church.
Again, this is a witch hunt and you will not be satisfied until you have his head on a stake.
Mark –
Did you read the articles and view the accompanying news clips?
Do you think that a professing Christian pedophile should move back to the neighborhood where he committed the crime(s) and where the victim(s) still live? Is this what a “repentant” pedophile should do? Should he break the rules he committed to in order to attend a church? You
Mark, I have my own conculsions as to why people like yourself defend these molesters. You know darn well that this pedophile has done it many times before. That is how they work. You’re acting like you are cluless but I know you are not.
Mark –
You really believe that a professing Christian (or non-Christian) pedophile should live in the same neighborhood as the girls he molested? Apparently the laws have been changed so this cannot happen in the future . . . but you think it is a witch hunt. So the justice system sees the injustice to victims, but you don’t?
I think I might be going nuts now!! It’s catching, Dee!
Mark, I’m going to respectfully disagree with you on something – if you are worried about how a church handles child abuse you should never just walk away & wash your hands of it. If you know anything about paedophilia you’ll know that they will target anywhere they can get what is considered easy access to children. If you walk away you could leave behind an abusing paedophile, typical number of victims being between 100-200 before they get convicted, or even a group of paedophiles, with easy access to the church’s children. Is this really what any Christian with a real love for children, & the church should do? I say no.
We must be genuinely observant of those with access to our children or we fail to be wise. We must show Christ’s heart to the wounded or we fail to be loving. We must protect the vulnerable or we fail even to be human.
Can you even begin to imagine how a victim of sexual abuse through a church contact feels about seeing Pastors failing to put then first in public? Dee bangs this drum for a reason: the victims matter. As do teh abusers. And if you don’t think that Don – given his history – is at high risk of re-offending (or already there) then you are living in cloud cuckoo land. Do some research, for Christ’s sake.
Well, let’s see. He has been attending that church WITHOUT INCIDENT for 3.5 years. He moves back into his home and suddenly there’s media attention and is accused of not following through with the rules (please don’t tell me that people didn’t know who he was or what he was convicted of). You crucify the pastor and crucify him. For what?
Now, if he has done anything illegal, then he needs to be stopped. All that we have right now is gossip.
Anon1
He had several victims and he was convicted and spent time in jail ovet this. No slander, gossip, bitterness, defamation, malice of forethought, etc. involved.
Third. (Dissenting point) We have no idea what all Patrick said to the TV reporter. What we saw in the clip was an edited interview. His statements could have been for 5 minutes or 20 minutes. All we saw and heard was what the local new editor decided to put on the air. And in many cases what goes on the air is what they feel will most attract viewers (and thus let them sell ads).
Lynn has a good point. I lost track of how many interviews I did regarding my lawsuit (sued by former pastor for defamation $500K), but before every interview, I prayed that God would allow me the opportunity to discuss my primary concern which was spiritual abuse. Those discussions rarely showed up in any interview. I was able to get that message out on live radio shows, but not television interviews. BTW, most of the tv interviews I did were filmed only a couple hours before air time. They only used brief snippets of the interview added it to the other stuff (court documents, shots of the church, etc), they had already compiled before interviewing me.
Mark
Gossip?Ah.. the last refuge for those who cannot accept that 20+years of molestation cannot be cured by 8 months in the slammer. Do you understand his history? As for “without incident” I saw him wandering around the grounds of that church without escort 3 1/2 years ago.This is after his prison term. I saw him-no gossip involved. But, maybe my eyes deceived me? Do you understand why I was upset 3 1/2 ago?
He moved back in the neighborhood with the kids that he molested as soon as his probation was up. No gossip- he had a conviction. It is now against the law to do so but he made it in under the wire. Obviously the law in NC recognizes that this is not desirable. In fact, most people seem to accept that this manuever is unacceptable. Why don’t you?
Finally, how do you know nothiing “illegal” had occurred? Does a lack of report mean that nothing happened? The recidivism rate for a person like this is rather high. There is a reason that the pastor kicked him off church grounds. Since nothing “illegal” happened-he only sat next to a kid or at least that is what was implied- isn’t this an overreaction?
Until churches show as much conpassion ofr the victims, then i will continue to push home this point.
Bridget
We (or at least a number of people at TWW)have ascertained that I am not nuts!! So neither are you. My guess is that this is something personal for Mark and that is why we are like ships passing in the night.
Mark
Baloney. He hurt kids. He went to jail. We can say it. I say it here-lound and clear. Don Cameron went to jail for hurting little kids. The TWW community extends its heartfelt sympathy for the victims and their families. We pray for their healing. No one would interpret this as meaning that he is currently hurting kids. This doesn’t make sense.
I have a feeling that you are not from the Raleigh community. There seems to be something that has gone on with your life. Would you like to share your story with us?
“My guess is that this is something personal for Mark” Yep…
Lynn
Do not forget, I talked with the nieghbors-not all of them but a good number. They did not know which church he was attending and were surprised that he attended church. It is obvious that the neighbors had not received or had been made aware of concern for their children by the church. Now, could that have changed today? Yes.
I will be seeing the nieghbors again and I will check it out. Boots on the ground. But, then again, maybe the neighbors are lying and have a grand concspiracy to hide all sorts of outreach from all the concerned churches in Raleigh. I was able to meet the nieghbors with little effort on my part-unlocking the door of my car and stepping out into the cul de sac. My guess is that anyone could do the same thing if they cared enough to do so. Oh yeah, the reporter gave a hoot but she is the media. Thank God for Amanda Lamb who highlighted this despeicable situation.
Mark
No one here said he is contnuing to molest kids again. We all believe that he is at risk for doing so. Even more we believe he show blatant disregard for the consequences of his presence amongst those he hurt. So, once again, what’s your story? There seems to be personal pain here.
The fact that anyone could defend this man living side-by-side with his victims appalls me. Even if there was virtually nowhere for him to go, if he was truly ashamed of his actions he’d find somewhere. Anywhere. He’d live anywhere else to give those families some peace.
Mark’s comments chill me.
But, then again, maybe the neighbors are lying and have a grand concspiracy to hide all sorts of outreach from all the concerned churches in Raleigh.
I accused NO ONE of lying. All I said was that we don’t know, at this time, what PD said that didn’t make it on the air. JA seems to understand what I’m saying about how such TV interviews work. You talk for 1 to 30 minutes and maybe 30 seconds gets on the air. They have a story to do. They pick out the bits and pieces that make that story work. It may not be the story that the person or persons interviewed want to get out. This can and does happen all the time with no malicious intent on the part of the TV staff.
Julie Anne gets my point.
As to what we, or at least I know about what PD said is what was in his two letters and what was on the air in his interview. What else he said or didn’t say I don’t know. That’s all.
Julie Anne
Let me put it this way. If I had come to visit your daughter and the others involved with your mess and asked them if Julie Anne had ever mentioned spiritual abuse, would they have responded by saying “Huh?I didn’t know Julie Anne (mom) was concerned about spiritual abuse. I thought this was all about money.”
Lynn
The neighbors did not know of any expressions of support from the church. Since they were the ones with the kids, shouldn’t they have known about it?
Again. All I said was we don’t know what PD said that wasn’t broadcast. That’s all.
“Mark’s comments chill me”
Many of us are finding out we are attending church with many people who think and talk like Mark. We have concern and we speak about it considering a convicted “professing Christian while he molested pedophile” who served only 8 months, who goes back to live amongst his victims and we want his head on a pike. See, that is the level of intelligence we are dealing with when it comes to heinous crimes against children!
Lynn, The pastor has a pulpit and a way to communicate with the public if the church has a website. IT is very easy. He could even do a press release.
“I saw him wandering around the grounds of that church without escort 3 1/2 years ago.”
I didn’t know he was required to be escorted everywhere. Is that from the church or just a desire?
“He moved back in the neighborhood with the kids that he molested as soon as his probation was up.”
No, he moved back into his house. Seems to me he was law-abiding and didn’t return before he was able. Him moving home doesn’t mean he had sinister motives. Jail has a way of making one destitute.
“Finally, how do you know nothiing “illegal” had occurred? Does a lack of report mean that nothing happened”
Why is there a cloud that something illegal did occur? Do you know something that I don’t? The police haven’t charged him.
“There is a reason that the pastor kicked him off church grounds.”
Maybe, or maybe it was a witch hunt.
Man, not participating with the pile on of this guy and there’s an implied accusation that I somehow am hiding similar baggage? The presumptuousness on the part of the commenters here is what is appalling.
Hmm…as a survivor, I will speak for the victims, too.
It has been said that the child molester condemns his victims to a life sentence. This is true. The things that were done to me as a child will forever be a part of me. Through a lot of difficult internal work and therapy and a willingness to look the darkness and pain in the eye and name it, I am healing – so that open wounds become scars. But though the wounds heal, the scars will always be there.
Let me address this particular situation. There were four hands on perpetrators in my childhood. The first was the 17 years old nephew of an in-law that we rented a ‘mother-in-law’ cottage from when I was 2 1/2. He moved away when I was 3 and I never saw him again – though I heard of him from time to time.
The second was an older cousin who molested my when the opportunity arose starting when I was 7 and lasting until I was 12. I will get back to him. The third was when I was 9 and she was 16 or 17, babysitting me. She forced my best friend and I to have sex while her and her friends watched and laughed. I think they may have had a movie camera, but my memory is a little fuzzy. We moved from that town and I can’t even remember her name – though I remember her eyes. And I remember thinking, during the event, how unfair it was to my friend – he had such a look of horror and fear on his face, you see I already knew how to compartmentalize and emotionally shut down, but he didn’t, and felt felt so bad for him….
The fourth was when I was 10. An 18 year old friend of my older cousin came to him wanting pictures to take with him as he was going off to the navy. My cousin came and got me – the guy had a Polaroid. I’m glad there are no negatives, although the prints may still exist. But, he went of to join the navy and I never had to see him again….
Ah, but my older cousin. Not long after he stopped, he got in trouble with the local law and was given the choice of moving to Alaska to live with his mom or go to jail (not about molesting). The family chose Alaska. I was 13. Eleven years later, having not told anyone about any of this….I went to my grandparents for Christmas and he was there. Leading into it, I really didn’t think much about it. When I got there (keep in mind, I was 24 now), he started teasing me and it ended with me running to the back bedroom to get away from him. He chased me and literally pushed the door off it frame to get in. That scared him, I think, because he backed off and fixed the door before our grandfather found out. I went home from that family holiday and less than 2 weeks later, I tried to kill myself. But never mind, my cousin was doing so much better. He and his mother had moved to Hawaii and he was going to college and doing ‘great things’.
I didn’t see him again until 19 years later – and it was still painful. Here’s the thing. Even seeing picture of any of these people causes my chest to tighten and pain to rise and….if one of them moved in next door to me, I’d like to think I’d confront their sorry asses, but I’d probably end up hurting myself.
Thirty-seven years after it stopped, it still colors my life, affects how I see people. I don’t know if there are really words to describe what it is like to be a victim/survivor of childhood sexual abuse. And yes, most of mine took place while the family was heavily involved in church. I recently found out that the first one later became a counselor for Teen Challenge (google it, sigh).
Anyway, my two cents from the victims side….
PS: These abusers will not change if they are not held accountable (and I don’t just mean serving their jail time when they get caught. Most never get caught because no one is willing to risk their own neck to turn them in (present company excluded). None of the people who abused me ever got reported to the police. The first one because my mother and his mother were friends – and my mother and he were friends and my mom scared the talk right out of me about it. The others I never told anyone about. I have looked into criminal charges, but the statute of limitations has run out in all cases.
I believe that even if they were being held accountable, that they could not change due to their predatory nature.
Mark –
You are the one putting words in people’s mouths — no one asked for his head on a pike — no one wants him crucified — no one said he was molesting again.
We all know he can LEGALLY move into his home. The point is — he calls himself a Christian yet shows little concern for those he molested when he moves back in next to them. And any pastor concerned about “the least of these” should question a pedophile in his congregation and let victims know what is going on with this man. Actually, he should let EVERY person in his congregation know about this man. These are the consequences of sin. Any criminal would have a public record for the rest of their life. Why shouldn’t a pedophile be watched and communities warned?
I noticed you didn’t answer any of my previous questions.
Oh how it makes me laugh when people like Mark say “How careless it is, though, to judge someone’s heart” (or something similar) accompanied by many judgemental comments and accusations.
The violent imagery especially makes me snicker… TWW & her commenters won’t be satisfied until they have Cameron’s head on a pike! Alert the town crier!
“You crucify the pastor and crucify him. For what?”
Odd, I wasn’t aware that anyone had taken Cameron & Dominguez, tied them to wooden crosses with rope and hammered iron spikes through their wrists and feet… I must not be paying attention, not like you, Mark… you seem to know the motives and thought processes of everyone else here, calling them gossips and slanderers, etc.
“Why is there a cloud that something illegal did occur? Do you know something that I don’t? The police haven’t charged him.”
To answer your question (although I’m not sure why I’m bothering), yes, many of the people here do know something you don’t. Many of the people here have experience working with and counselling abused children, defending them, standing up for them… others were sexually abused as children, and are brave enough to stand up and speak. So yes, you ass, they do know something you don’t. Read some of the links that have been presented in the comments and posts here. Educate yourself before you attempt to educate others.
Stormy, by ‘holding them accountable’, I mean that pastor’s, community members, church members, everyone who knows the situation, holds them accountable by making sure that the abuser is aware that they know his history and the issues that surround it. Make sure He (or she) knows that people are keeping an eye out and will not hesitate to call the police if they see one foot in the direction of past behavior. Confront them with every situation that puts a child at risk. Always. Every time. Period. That is the only ‘accountability’ that will have any real impact on the behavior of most abusers. Oh, and make sure they know that if they move because they don’t want to play by those rules, the warning of their behavior will go before them wherever they decide to go….
This may sound harsh, but the reality is, most will try to find a way to pick up where they left off. It isn’t like robbing a liquor store – “Hmmm… I made a bad choice there and won’t do that again.” No, this is a deep need to please their own twisted desires – to have power and control over those they perceive as weaker. Once you feed that demon, you don’t just turn it off. I’m not sure where to find them – it’s been a long time, but I have watched a few interviews with convicted child molesters and it is chilling.
They generally fall into two varieties: 1) Those who kidnap and rape children. These will often kill them when they are done because the child is nothing more than a toy to them, which when ‘broken’ is discarded. 2) Those who spend months – even years – grooming the object of their ‘desire’. They generally won’t kill them because they believe that the child enjoys it, too. They have deluded themselves into thinking this is ‘love’. These are broad categories and there is infinite variety within them, but they all seem to have one thing in common. The children are, one way or the other, simply objects from which they derive what they need. Most have no real concern for the effects their actions actually have on their victims. If they did, they would turn themselves in.
And there are the rare cases where they do turn themselves in and ask for help. These are the ones that will not balk at tight restrictions on where they can live or what they can do. They will even agree to being locked up, if necessary because they have looked inside honestly and know what they will do if they are not stopped.
If we are not willing to look at this honestly, we are making things worse. Consider: if an alcoholic comes to your church and says, “I’ve been clean and sober for a year. Great. But if you see that person exhibiting signs that maybe they are not clean and sober, would you hold them accountable for their own good (if not the good of their family)? Would you confront them? Would you expect, if they really were clean and sober, that they would avoid situations that would tempt them to start drinking again? How much more should we do that with pedophiles and child molesters? Seriously!
A little late in reading about all of this… Now Trying really hard to wrap my mind around all of this.
In regards to the pedophile: I, like many of you, find it a bit off that he would return to his home in the neighborhood with his victims. Lynn and some others make some good points about his legal right to return there, he served his time, etc… It is entirely possible he could be a different man who simply wants to put his past behind him and return home…but that is what makes all of this so odd:
If he truly is repentant, changed from his past, why not sell your home and find a different place to live?? I realize he is older, and he may not want to go through the trouble of all this…but if repentance is truly in his heart, why return to the place where he is daily reminded of the monster he was to those children as the victims families live down the street?? Why not put the past behind you altogether and move as far away from those dark days he created?? Not even to mention the obvious hurt he would cause the families to return there.. If I was him, I would try to make a new start and not return to my dark past….so yes, it is entirely, legitimately suspicious why he would move back to his neighborhood.
In regards to the pastor. Like lynn, I can’t really determine from one interview if he cares about the victims or not… However, I think the church, becoming so intertwined in the life of this man who committed these crimes, should make an effort to at least extend some concern to the victims and their families. This church has made a stand to minister to this convicted pedophile, and I commend them for that, but in that stand they should minister to those the pedophile has crushed and wounded since they are in the same community..it seems this has not happened yet..
To love one and ignore the other is not the answer in my opinion. I am glad the church has stepped up and has asked the pedophile to not come back to the church for obvious concerns of him not following the guidelines, but that leads me to another strange thought.
@Dee: You have obviously been involved with this pastor before, but I can’t understand something about him. In his letter, he made it quite clear they had safety guidelines in place to monitor the situation of the pedophile.. Guidelines the pedophile later would not follow…Were these in place when you attended this church when the pedophile came in? Or were these added later? Or were these never there in the first place and the Pastor was feeding his congregation a load of bull?
I ask that because it seems to me when you approached the pastor with your concerns about the pedophile, his response would be understanding and assurance that the church would be watching him closely with said guidelines (if they were in place)…Not the response you and your husband received.
And if the guidelines were not in place while you were there…why go through all the trouble of driving you away because of your concerns only to add those guidelines later? It makes me wonder if the church leadership really had guidelines in place or if that was added later to “cover up” the potential fallout with the latest local media explosion of this guy…
Maybe I am missing something, but I can’t help but wonder…definitely trying to wrap my mind around it all.
“Why is there a cloud that something illegal did occur? Do you know something that I don’t? The police haven’t charged him.” – Mark
“There is a reason that the pastor kicked him off church grounds.”
Maybe, or maybe it was a witch hunt. – Mark
The church leadership set parameters for Don Cameron in order for him to be on church property and involved with the church. Don Cameron violated the parameters. It took quite a while for Patrick to find out. Now Cameron is not allowed on church property. That is the consequence of his choices and he did it to himself. He proved he can’t be trusted to follow the rules so why should he be trusted not to reoffend? Safeguards should be put in place before an offense occurs, not afterwards. The lives of children are at stake here.
Where is your empathy for the children who have been violated? Patrick and Don can speak for themselves. The children can not.
Jeannette,
That you for sharing your story. It takes a lot of courage to be that transparent even though none of it was your shame. Your wisdom comes the hard way and your story is a sad reminder of why we must continue to fight for the children.
Liz, thank you.
Hmm….I wrote a blog post 3 years ago (while I was first processing some of this) that speaks to the attitude of telling victims to ‘just get over it’….
http://www.truth-makes-freedom.blogspot.com/2009/06/just-get-over-it.html
Jeannette, I’m sorry that you weren’t protected, and that you have had no recourse to accountability or justice. What a rusty knife could do to straighten things out…but that’s taking things a bit far (I suppose – still thinking on this). The shame is not yours – it’s theirs. It was a rubbish act done by rubbish people but that in no way made you rubbish. The rubbish is theirs, and theirs alone. I say this because like actions, words are also powerful.
Mark & Jimmy – my creepy spidey sensation is on heightened alert…
I understand the reason this thread exists is not about the perpetrator, but about the pastor. Right? That’s the reason this blog exists too- to critique various ministers and their failings? So, I won’t comment on the perp since that is separate from what the point of this thread is. I in no way endorse him. I feel for the victims. I don’t have all the facts and neither do any of you. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that there was a lot of harassment and maybe death threats against him.
That being said, back to the pastor. Just because he didn’t say words about the victims, doesn’t mean he doesn’t care. I just somehow get the feeling he could never win in this situation.
Liz, I am so sorry you have gone through that horrific pain and still going through it. This is where I will always come back to the side of the victim. Yes, there are those rare occasions that a pedophile will truly be repentant, although I really have not seen too many cases of that happening. When you start going down this trail of abuse the sin seems to seep in heavy and end up hardening the heart. Unfortunately, the spiral of abuse just keeps reoccurring until SOMEONE will put a stop to it- via the CHURCH PLEASE!! This is where I get angry! We the church are the ones to notice these things and put our foot down- PROACTIVELY! No wonder people are leaving the church in droves; there is no trust. We have pastors that are more concerned with getting the perp. help then supporting the victims. This is topsy-turvey.
At first I agreed with Lynn and Julie Anne about the pastors story and maybe its full entirety not getting out in the media, but then I thought “Well did the pastor get in touch with the victims before he even did this story?” Has there been some contact by mail or in person? Just a simple asking of the neighbors should be able to put this straight. Because if the pastor has NOT ALREADY done this he never will.
I recently saw an interview of the Son of Sam- here I believe we see someone who truly knows the Lord. When asked if he wanted parole he said “No, for if I did it would prove to be painful for the victims.” He also feels shame everyday for what he did to those he murdered.
Now is what I would expect from someone who knew he was wrong and yet will continue to pay for his crime.
We all pay consequences when we sin- If we lie, we ruin the trust between the people we lied to and they may never trust us again- this is the consequence. If one steals, one has to pay back what they stole and it may land him in jail, leaving his or her family having to fend for themselves economically, and usually they end up poor- this is the consequence.
When people sin there are consequences and when a child abuser does this to a child- then he or she needs to accept the consequences and they should be severe- like imprisonment for a long time or castration.
“So, I won’t comment on the perp since that is separate from what the point of this thread is.”
Actually Mark, you did comment on the perp. In response to a post that said “He moved back in the neighborhood with the kids that he molested as soon as his probation was up.”
You replied:
“No, he moved back into his house.”
I want to correct my quotation with the Son of Sam- it was a paraphrase of what he said.
No, Sophie, I am saying that from now on I won’t comment on the perp while you have your pitchforks in hand because it’s impossible to have rational dialogue with you anyway. I am sorry that my comment was lost on you.
Mark, I disagree it’s impossible to have a rational dialogue here, I just think that you’re not understanding the victim-included paradigm used here.
One thing you said stuck me: you said, ‘He moved back into his house’, as a response to , ‘He moved back into the neighbourhood with the kids he molested as soon as his probation was up’. Do you notice that one doesn’t actually preclude the other, btw? But one is seeing him as a convicted paedophile who abused children for many years whilst being a confessing Christian, while the other sees him as merely a person doing what is legal, without any consideration of the context, the motives, the outcomes. You could say, ‘a man cut another man open with a scalpel’, but only context will show if the first man is a surgeon or a sadist.
There are far wider considerations here than the merely, strictly, legal…& you really have not considered the community of neighbours & their damaged children that he has moved back amongst.
And if there are assumptions being made here it is because of the knowledge some of us have about paedophilia, which means erring on the side of caution when allowing someone with his historical tendencies to live near children. Paedophilia is a truly horrifying disorder, & the level of intelligence & manipulation involved is staggering.
And in my opinion, yes the Pastor may have been misquoted…but given that the neighbours don’t know who he is, I’d lay money he wasn’t. And in general the level of naievety about child abuse in the church among clergy is alarming. Here in Britain at least we now have the Churches Child Protection Advisory Service (www.ccpas.co.uk) to advise on practice. They really opened my eyes to a few things about churches, because most of my child safeguarding responsibilities are in the secular sector.
And this is especailly for you Dee, words about CCPAS’s mission:
Our Articles and Memorandum of Association commits us to put the interests of children (and other vulnerable people) first in all aspects of our work. This is fundamental to the cause of CCPAS.
Hi Dee & Deb,
TWW you are doing a great job bringing us the truth. It is the
truth that you know that will set you free. That is why I have so much
respect for you ladies. TWW has motivated me to seach the internet
for the truth.
I rembember Miquel on Saturday March 31,2012 at 1:00 A.M..
He wrote: The more I read the more I am thankful that you Gals are
here to sound the Trumpet.
Eagle it good to read you comments again and we are still
praying for your full recovery.
Love To All The TWW Family
Beakerj, thankyou. That’s precisely what I meant.
Mark –
Since this post is about Pastor Patrick and weather or not he has cared for the victims as much as he has cared for the abuser, have you seen or heard, or do you know if he has cared for the victims?
Having concerned feelings about the victims and praying for the victims is good, but CARE requires action along with feelings of concern and prayer, especially if you are ministering to the abuser and he is living near the victims. As we follow Jesus we are doers and not hearers only. This is what Dee has tried to get at in this post.
Patrick does sound like a caring compasionate man, but where are his concerns for the victims in this case? None of us know his feelings or concerns for them if he does not communicate them by words and actions.
I would also question his concern for his own congregation. In listening to the video, it “sounds like” the church informed the congregation on August 2 about Don and his past, and then sent another letter two days later saying that they had to ask him to stop coming because he broke the boundaries. I hope the entire congregation has known about Don since he started attending and not just recently on August 2 when they received the first letter.
You still have not answered any questions I have put to you.
Mark – mischaracterising people as ‘having their pitchforks out’ is not ‘rational dialogue’. We do not have pitchforks out. We are concerned that a church-going molester has been living amongst his victims. You defended the molester’s decision as ‘legal’. We reply that the legality of it has no bearing on whether it was right or not. This is the point you missed. Irrational it is not – unless you consider basic concern for the mental wellbeing of children to be irrational.
You also said ‘You wanted him out of dodge? You got it. How careless, though, to judge someone’s heart’.
Here you mischaracterised the concern shown for child sexual assault victims ***who have had to live in the same neighbourhood as their attacker*** (who may or may not be reformed) as an act of careless judgement. I’m not the irrational one here, Mark.
“No, Sophie, I am saying that from now on I won’t comment on the perp while you have your pitchforks in hand because it’s impossible to have rational dialogue with you anyway. I am sorry that my comment was lost on you.”
Mark, You fail to see the irrationality this comment? You immediately went to ad hominem instead of making your case. Problem is, you cannot make a good case in defense of the pedophile but you want to think what you think so you go insults to try to put people on the defensive. I am proud no one rose to your pedantic bait.
Mark said, “Quit judging the man.” This is such a typical cop out for those who want to munipulate others into thinking that we shouldn’t hold others accountable for their behavior. I’ve heard this so many times in the “church” I could puke…
As I said, I’m not commenting on the child molester anymore. As for the pastor, I already said I didn’t have a problem with his response. I think that for some people, he will never be able to do enough anyway.
Beakerj
I am glad you have this in place, but I find it pretty sad that we have to have protective services for abuses that happen inside the church. What a shame on you church!! This is the one place that should be a place of rest and security from those who would do harm of any sort, whether child abuse or spiritual abuse!
It is a sad thing that not most of us here can have that trust in a church again. I have two sons who are still at an age that could still be sexually abused and I am always having to think about it when I let them go to some group activity that involves me not being able to be there. I have to constantly make them aware that IF ANYONE touches you, you tell me or your dad right away. These are the things I have to do and it is sad that I have to bring these kind of subjects up with my sons.
Now put yourself Mark in the shoes of these that have been innocent and then their lives are forever altered because some SELFISH, SICK man decided it was his desires he wanted met and screw those children who are precious in the Lords sight. I am sorry I have no patience for you people.
“As I said, I’m not commenting on the child molester anymore.”
I expected no more than this from you. Unfortunately I’ve had dealings with your type; brash, arrogant, you bust into conversations without a truly informed opinion, accuse others of judging (while judging, yourself), get thoroughly defeated by the others who use logic and common sense, you back out of the conversation without acknowledging defeat (that would require courage), then excuse yourself from commenting more.
Typical.
IRONICALLY, Don Cameron has now been forced to leave a place where he and his history are known (and where he would be carefully watched) to a new place where his proclivities will probably not be known and he will not be watched.
He’s been forced back into the shadows where he is more likely to re-offend.
“How would you like him as your neighbor Jimmy?” some might ask.
Well my children don’t live with me so I don’t think it would be a big problem. My current neighbor is an ex-felon; I hate it that he doesn’t keep his yard up but otherwise his prison record doesn’t bother me.
Don Cameron is now hopefully out of the eyeline of his victims. He will surely be on your version of the Sex Offenders Register, which will mean his whereabouts are known by the local authorities, & may even to be visible to local residents who want to know this.
As to him being your neighbour Jimmy – I’m sure you’d be bothered if you had grandkids who visit, & you didn’t want to take the risk that the man next door might be taking long lens photos of them in their swim suits as they run in & out of a hose in the summer, then uploading them to the web to share with his ‘friends’ & them all happily masturbating away to pics of your beloveds. This is the risk you’d take, because that’s the nature of the beast. This is not a new convert who may have been amazingly changed, but a man whose religion has not stopped him abusing, & abusing for decades. Up for that are you?
Mark
I do not know you and I have a very good feeling that you do not know me. If you look at this blog over its 3 1/2 years of existence, you will find several things to be major issues for us. One of them is pedophiles and the church. I sincerely believe, with all my heart, backed up by a number of experiences, that many churches do a terrible job in handling issues of pedophilia in the church. In most instances, it is covered up and kicked under the table and victims become revictimized by a callous church.
Many churches respond by focusing on the pedophile-giving him grace, attention, and so forth. They visit him in jail, sit with him in court and even vouch for his “character” because, of course, he is a Christian. Sometimes the church seems to like to focus on the “we’ve got a worse sinner than anybody else” thing and they like to write stories and show how God has saved the worst through their particualr ministry. The church then buys into a profession of faith as “proof” of faith. Do you remember Mike Warnke-the supposed warlock, satanic coven leader. His gig lasted years and Christians bougth the story when it was another hoax. Ol MIke was a fraud but he used the church to make lots of money. Now he is on the “Christian”comedy circuit. I’m afraid the last laugh is on us.
I am a former public health nurse with way too much experience in this area. The pedophile is a self centered individual whose perverted needs become the central focus. His victims exist to please him. He is often a wuss who feels insecure around adults and uses children in order to feel “in control.” When a church showers the pervert with attention, they are playing right into his hand. He is now able to play with controlling adults in his life as well.
In this situation, Cameron has been using the good will from churches for years to indulge himself. He gets caught, repents, acts oh so charmingly sincere and waits. Back to business as usual? He may use the faith for his own selfish purposes. Is he sincere this time (more sincere than in his past), don’t know? It doesn’t teally matter. if he is sincere then he must stick with the program and show remorse, preferably before he is caught acting self centeredly. I never trust a situation in which a guy cries crocodile tears after being caught.
Now, if you read the stories from the other side of the equation: the victims and their families, you will see that their needs often take a back seat The pedophile is the focus, they are merely the baggage and they feel it. They are expected to buck up, forgive, and get over it. What is wrong with this picture? The pedophile is the focus, the victims are riff raff, reminding hte church of the real pain behind the pedophilia.
It is rare to see church reaching out in any special way to the victims. In fact, in this situation, I have been to the neighborhood and spoken to the families. They did not know Cameron has been going to churches in this area for years. They did not know he was at the CoA and coudln’t believe that he purports to be a Christian. If CoA and the other former church really gave a darn beyond propping up the pedophile, they might have attempted to reach out to the victims of one of their church members.
It wasn’t too hard. Within a couple of minutes of arrival, we were surrounded by neighbors, sharing their hearts about the ordeal that they had been experiencing. Frankly, those conversations brought tears to my eyes and I determined that I was going to do something to try to bring some relief to this situation.
This blog exists to bring the plight of the victims to the forefront. It is our prime directive. We both will push for attention to the victims. Every time we bring up an instance on pedophilia and domestic abuse on this blog, we will explore the response of the church to the victims. And, if that response is nonexistent or tepid, we will be calling people on it. Someday, maybe some churches will get it. If you want to start a blog to defend churches or pedophile, knock yourself out.
Please note, we allow your critique of us to remain.
Jimmy
You might dislike him if he broke into your house on a regular basis and stole your CJ Mahaney and John Piper CDs? My guess is that you would call the cops.
He is on the registry, WRAL’s Amanda Lamb is following his tory and his church is still involved. My guess is that he will be watched like a hawk. This guy will have a difficult time staying int he shadows.
Mark
I am confused about something. This is what you said about Mark Driscoll in a comment awhile back.
“So, he created a dictatorship and uses his “gifts” to inform Christian married couples that abhorrent sex acts are condoned.This is a sick, perverted man, who twists scripture to push his agenda.”
I must admit you sound a bit schizophrenic.
H+M
Thank you for your kind words. I really needed them today. The Cameron situation was a bit stressful for me and I am jumping into a difficult topic tomorrow.
BeakerJ
I am glad to know that there are other groups like CCPA and SNAP who do put the victims first. It is interesting. When Jesus had truly changed the lives of people, they made restitution-like the tax collector. These days we have cheap faith. All a criminal has to do is shout “praise the Lord” and the church loves it. Give me a criminal who tries to make it up to his victims and i will begin to believe that change has occurred.
Faith
One day I hope that churches will not have to be prodded to give aid and comfort to the victims. I pray it will be natural, welling up out of a heart that is broken for the hurting.
Seeker
This was a complex situation and your question is understandable. It is important to understand that we had just left a church after a horrendous experience with another pedophile situation. This next one happened two weeks after arrival in this new church.
There is no question that at the time I emailed the pastor, he did not feel that Cameron was a problem. He said so. When I pushed him with a second email, he said he would deal with it with her leadership team. No specifics. We left the church within 6 weeks of this encounter. What he did or did not do was never expressed to me.
Let me tell you, I was not pleased to have to deal with 2 pedophile situations in such a short period of time. Talk about feeling prevailed upon. The pastors of two churches were not pleased with me for bringing up my concerns and viewed me as the problem as opposed to the pedophile-go figure.
Also, there was a woman attending CoA that had been friendly with Cameron’s wife and she said that she often would check on him during the church service because he was wandering around the building. She expressed serious concern and left the church as well.
I was so concerned when I met with a woman from the church within a month of our leaving and urged her to keep an eye on him. Throughout the last 3 years, I have received reports of where he was living from others who were concerned about his whereabouts. I also found out he was reportedly still attending a men’s group from my former Baptist church.
Finally, I expressed concern, in writing on this blog in February.
I did not know if those parameters were put in place during my attendance or after I left. The pastor sure did not share that with me. I am not even sure if the entire church was made aware of his presence. I did try to get the word via that one woman but do not know if it happened.
My prayer is that I will not have to face another pedophile in church for as long as I live. Both instances have caused me much pain and have contributed to my somewhat jaded view of this church at times. It is something I fight every day.
I do know this. I will continue to fight for the victims in these situations with every stroke of the keyboard.
Jeanette
I am so sorry for the many abuses that you had to suffer when growing up. It almost seems overwhelming to me. How much more so for you! Please know that i will continue to pray for your healing and strength. You are helping many people find courage as you tell your story. Thank you so much.
Stormy
You make a good point. I do not know if any statistics really exist on long term change in the pedophile’s nature. I wonder if the odds are so low that this is the reason that the Chemical Castration bill was passed in Louisiana. I need to do some reading on this.
I did a little bit of research and I found this, it’s about a reformed paedophile who never acted on his impulses. He’s asking for a distinction to be made between paedophiles who don’t act on their impulses and can change through therapy like he was, and child sex abusers. Thought it was interesting and decided to share it here in case anyone’s interested. I wonder if this man is representative of a significant number of others, or if he’s pretty much a unicorn.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/feb/25/socialcare.familyandrelationships
Dee said:
Let me put it this way. If I had come to visit your daughter and the others involved with your mess and asked them if Julie Anne had ever mentioned spiritual abuse, would they have responded by saying “Huh?I didn’t know Julie Anne (mom) was concerned about spiritual abuse. I thought this was all about money.”
I may be confused, Dee. I thought we were talking about what the average person saw on the tv interview, not in person. In the last series of interviews, even though I distinctly remember talking about spiritual abuse, that was not covered, the focus was on me potentially ruining a pastor’s reputation by saying that he allowed a sex offender free reign in the nursery. For the first time in my case, the tide turned and people really started to support the pastor and speak badly about me. All this to affirm what Lynn said is that the media plays an important part in swaying public opinion the way they want and for whatever purpose they want. It has been eye-opening to me. It’s really not about the whole story and the whole truth, but it’s about picking up one piece of the story that has a sensational feel to it, IMHO.
Dee – your story about DC is so similar to Meaghan’s in our story. She left the church knowing about the sex offender and couldn’t sleep at night knowing that his mom still worked in the nursery and he was around kids (including the victims whom he lived with). It tore her up. She was the last person added to the lawsuit (which was eventually dismissed).
You and Meaghan are champions for victims and wanting to make sure children are safe and protected. There is a big price to pay. Thanks for speaking out strongly on this subject. I’m so thankful that Meaghan also spoke out because if she hadn’t, this sex offender would probably still be at the church, living at home with his victims. Most likely you publicizing this story made life uncomfortable for DC and helped him to make the right choice to move out of the neighborhood where the victims live. Maybe now those parents/victims can have a good night of restful sleep.
Julie Anne
I am sorry to sound confusing. What I meant was this. I had some knowledge of the neighbors and they were surprised that he was involed with a church. They had no knowledge of wither his present or previous church. I thne exptrapolated that there had been no outreach to the victims in that nieghborhood. So, I put that together with the interview and made an assumption, and it is truly an assumption, that there has been no significant concern expressed to or for the victims.
In your situation, although the interview went one way, the people who knew you would have known that you were deeply concerned about spiritual abuse and would have told that to me if I had met them .So, in that situation i would put two and two together and say the interview did not adequately express your concerns . Does this make any sense?
Ok, yes, that does. Thanks, Dee. Once again, it is always the victim left out. It’s similar with the Danielle/HOFCC case – in that situation, the whole family was essentially abandoned. This was a family who should have had immediate care provided (meals, other practical help). The dynamics of how the situation was handled made it awkward for Danielle to even go to town and run into church members – they were in a sense emotionally/spiritually shunned and this was based on how the church leaders handled the situation. This is shameful.
Dee, you wanted everyone in the church to be alerted that there is a child molester in their midst? Why stop at him? Why not dig out everyone’s personal sins and convictions and make everyone aware of them. Fred spent time in jail for burglary. Lock your car doors! John spent the night in jail for beating his wife. Don’t date him! Casandra was arrested for forgery. Better be careful and not do business with her! Margaret was arrested for using crack cocaine in front of her children. Don’t let your children play with her children! (p.s., she’s also divorced TWICE!)
Would you go to that church?
I do believe you are truly concerned for the welfare of the victims, but I have to also wonder if this isn’t also about a bit of spite in the way the pastor treated you when you tried to join their church. YOU couldn’t join but they let a CHILD MOLESTER join?
Maybe you could find out the reason why Don left so soon. Was he receiving death threats? Did he realize that he was hurting a lot of people by moving back and had a change of heart.
Food for thought, there are three other child molesters other than DC in that zip code.
Julie Anne
Know one knows better than you. What happened to you was despicable. Today a pastor I knwo talked about turning tragedy into treasure. You are that treasure. So many will be helped by your willingness to serve.
Also, Patrick should have provided care for the victims? What does that look like? I don’t think knocking on their doors saying that their daughter’s molester is a member of my church but we want to help you out. I think they would have slammed the door in his face. I know I would have. Plus, the names of the victims are sealed because of their ages. What about the home churches of the victims’ families. Shouldn’t they be the ones to primarily administer care? That would make more sense to me.
Also, giving a shout out to the victims and their families after 5 years in a short television interview would seem, in my opinion, a bit tacky and even contrived. Not to mention the victims who were watching and thinking “they let him attend their church?!”
@Dee,
You said,
“Let me tell you, I was not pleased to have to deal with 2 pedophile situations in such a short period of time. Talk about feeling prevailed upon. The pastors of two churches were not pleased with me for bringing up my concerns and viewed me as the problem as opposed to the pedophile-go figure.”
This is so sad to me. The pastor should have understood your concerns and should have taken the opportunity to tell you what the church was planning to do about the situation…He should have done this for any who brought forth concerns about the situation.
As far as letting the whole church know the situation with Cameron—I think if Cameron was truly repentant he would not mind cooperating in this sense…In fact, he should be open about his past and not keep it in the dark.
I hate the pastor responded the way he did to you and your husband. He lost an opportunity to be understanding and open about the situation early on when it could have made a difference. Now they are having to deal with the consequences of that I believe.
Mark
This is not done out of spite. Please look at all the other stories we have done on this issue with churches from across the country. We are well known for our focus on pedophilia. In fact, a few of our readers would rather us not talk about it so much but to no avail. I believe that God uses situations like the one that happened to me to draw attention to specific issues. As my one pastor said today-God is in the business of turning tragedy into treatsure and that is how I view this. You have to admit, it is rather rare for one person to encounter two pedophiles back to back. I do not think it was a coincidence. I believe tht God was showing me something.
Now, the state of NC appears to agree with many of us on this blog. If Don had been convicted a bit later, he would not be allowed to move back into that neighborhood. Was that law made out of spite or out of legitimate concern for the well-being of the victims? What do you think the legislators know that you do not?
There is quite a bit of difference between a child molester and a forger in terms of the long range consequences. Do you really want to say this?Good night! I would rather get hit by a forger any day of the week as opposed to one of my children being molested. I think most people would agree.
Now, as for the guy who beats his girlfriends, I would certainly hope that a church would warn any young woman who is about to date a serial abuser. I certainly would say something if I knew about it. In fact, do you really want to bring up the issue of domestic violence, another tragedy that we have written about extensively on this blog? I think there are some women reading now that might take exception to your comment about not warning a woman about abuse.
By the way, they did offer us membership after we decided to deal with those involved in our own way but, by then, we needed to find a more welcoming fellowship which, by the way, heard our story and welcomed us with open arms. We did not hide anything from them, including this blog.
I also have some theories as to the reason why Don may have left early. I hate to irritate you but do you think this blog and the news media might have helped? You do not seem to put this possibility into your list of reasons…
And, if you know that Don received “death threats” please contact Amanda Lamb at WRAL News. I am sure she would be most interested in such a thing. Also, the name of the DA is in the embedded video. Please call them. This blog would NEVER, EVER condon violence or threats of violence. It is violence that we stand against. Please let me know if you know of this and how you know of it. In fact, I would be more than happy to help you in reporting this. Why do you think he would get death trhreats? I know if I found out that he got such threats, I would report it and then write about it. Or is this something that you are assuming?
Mark –
There are many ways that a pastor can support and care for victims. What you stated above seems an attempt to belittle those who say that this can and should take place.
You seem to assume that the victims are Christians — I don’t know if they are or aren’t but it does not matter. Making contact would be a way to interact with them as a man who would be familiar with what happened and an act of love — whether the door was slammed in his face or not. (BTW – they seemed to receive Dee!) There could have been a phone call a note, etc.
To “assume” that their church, or anyone for that matter, is caring for them is a bad assumption.
To compare a convicted thief to a convicted child molester in terms of making your congregation aware, is like reducing the victims who are living, breathing children, to mere property. There is NO comparison!! Children are not personal property that might be stolen or scraped up a bit.
Seriously, the government posts pedophiles’ whereabouts — but you think the church should NOT let their attenders know?? Are you a believed?
Mark
If Cassandra is using crack cocaine in front of her kids, they are at risk. As a public health nurse, I would have been obligated to report this to the police and also report her to Child Protective Services. Do you know what crack cocaine can do to someone, especially someone who is caring for vulnerable little children. And you are correct. I would not allow my kids to play at her house with her kids but would invite her kids over to play at my house to give them some semblace of normalcy and safety. The two divorces would have nothing to do with my response.
Mark, this is getting a bit odd. Would you really let your small kids (assuming you have them) go play at a house with a woman using crack cocaine?
Mark
I have already answered these questions about contacting the victims. It is very easy, even with sealed records. I had no trouble whatsoever. It took me about 5 minutes. I would take a heartfelt expression of concern over being ignored any day of the week.
I am beginning to think something weird is going on. Here is what you said in response to my initial post in Febriary
“I am Anglican and didn’t go through any type of tribunal to join. I can’t see myself ever subjecting myself to that type of initiation process for any church. Maybe because I spent the first 27 years of my life in a high-demand, autocratic disciplinarian church. I too am sorry that you experienced it, but as you said, it was a springboard into your new ministry.”
You sound like a different person but you are not. I am confused.
Really, Mark, Really??? Done out of spite?? Your really reaching here, Mark. Why don’t YOU be honest with everyone here and tell us the REAL reason why you are saying the things you are saying.And tell us the REAL reason why you defend predators. Right now you have everyone going in circles with you. I get the feeling that YOU are enjoying this.
Seeker
i know this sounds weird but i am glad that it happened to me as opposed to others. God was leading me to start a blog. It was part of his perfect preparation for the things I would encounter here. I would never have believed half the stories I have been told had I not experienced them myself. It helps me to care for others who go through weird experiences with churches. So, when I get emails that say “you will never believe what happened to me”, I get to say “I’ve been there. Welcome to the Fellowship of the Wounded.”
I actually think the pastor would have liked me. I have a great sense of humor.
Mark – I’m being totally serious here – do you need help with something? Please contact someone here if you do, even if it’s with the fallout of being in an over-authoritarian church meaning you can’t bear any form of rules or people’s sin being exposed. I can see how that’d happen.
Please let people help if you need something.
Stormy
When someone equates a forger with a pedophile with a mother using crack cocaine, I am beginning to get suspicious. No one is that naive and Mark’s comments in the past show that he is not. Ther is something going on here that I cannot quite put my finger on.
Dee, I’m getting the feeling that he’s playing us.
Dee – I agree that Mark’s comments have a certain flavour. It may be that of not wanting people to suffer the consequences of their actions, or trying to minimise one sin compared to others? I have my own personal theory as to what this flavour is.
Mark, to equate child sex abuse with forgery or thievery, is disingenuous. Hopefully, you read the comments I left above about my experiences with molestation. Let me add that in my life I have had my house broken into and vandalized, I have been robbed, I have been attacked by a PCP filled man with a 10″ knife, I have been forced off the road and threatened, I have had a neighbor shot (more than once, actually). With all of that, the only offender on the list of these that I would be very angry if I was not informed by my pastor of his presence in the congregation is the child molester. Seriously.
Mark, you sadden me. Your attitude seems representative of a vast majority of church goers who are ignorant of the realities of these kinds of criminals. Hmm…something Jesus said comes to mind and, too me, it fits this situation….
“…for the sons of this age are shrewder and more prudent and wiser in relation to their own generation [to their own age and kind] than are the sons of light.” – Luke 16:8
It never ceases to amaze me how the church seems hell bent on burying their heads in the sand and showing less native intelligence and wisdom concerning these things the the general public. It is a sad statement that contributes to people thinking the church is full of it.
This is why rationality is amiss here. I am NOT equating child molestation to any of the other sins I mentioned. I DID say that if you inform the congregation about one crime, you should be informing them about ALL crimes. Aren’t they serious too? Even Dee seems to suggest she would want the pastor to tell her about the crack mother so she could avoid her.
How about a dad who was arrested for DUI with kids in the car? Should we send a letter out to all members of the congregation? What about the mother who decided to have an abortion. Or another mother who had 2 or 3 abortions? Or about homosexuals? Wouldn’t we want to protect our children from the homosexuals as well? We need a public list! Watch them as they walk around the church grounds and make sure that they stay away from our children.
And the condemnation, the insinuation, the blatant lies about my character by not agreeing with you all.
And Dee, you seem to like to go back and find quotes from me in previous, unrelated threads, why do you do that? Are you looking for a straw man so that you don’t have to answer any questions? Please tell us everything that Patrick should have done which would have fulfilled your sense of justice. Also, are there any other churches which you can point to which proactively informs members of any legal situations involving members?
I DID say that if you inform the congregation about one crime, you should be informing them about ALL crimes.
I’m finding anger welling up inside me when I read your posts, Mark. Do you really mean the words you type? Do you not see the difference between the residual effects of sexual abuse and a DUI?
Or about homosexuals? Wouldn’t we want to protect our children from the homosexuals as well?
And what about homosexuals? How are homosexuals damaging children’s lives like a pedophile?
People, ignore this fundy troll (Mark). There is no reasoning with him.
Everyone, see the comment that I left on the Mickey Connolly post.
You are being purposely obtuse, Mark. Dee did not say she would ‘avoid’ the mother who was addicted to cocaine, she DID say that she would report her to child services and the police if she knew said fictional character was doing crack in front of her children.
As for the ‘Dad arrested while DUI’ with kids in the car, I’ve made that phone call. I’ve made that call, telling the police that my sister-in-law was driving drunk with her kids in her car. Have you ever had to do anything like that? I didn’t write a letter to my entire congregation about it. I don’t think driving under the influence quite compares to raping children. Your argument is idiotic.
And the dig about homosexuals is a real gem… homosexuality does not equal paedophelia. Idiotic comparison.
As for your earlier comment, describing the rape and molestation of children as a ‘private sin’… I can only say, WTF. WTF, Mark. How could you even begin to say that the rape and molestation of CHILDREN is a PRIVATE sin. Dafuq.
I don’t care if the woman sitting next to me in church has had 3 abortions, or 8, or 10. Don’t give a flying EFF. That’s between her and God. However, if the man sitting next to her is a pedophile, and is roaming free in the church, helping out in the children’s programs, flying under the radar, helping out in the nursery, and I find out that my pastor or other people in my church KNEW that he was sexually attracted to children, and didn’t warn me to keep a close eye on him, I would be furious. Furious doesn’t even begin to describe it.
This idiotic idea that “all sins are equal” has been in the mindset of the church at large for far too long. NEWS FLASH: Not all sins are equal. We are all sinners, we all fall short of the glory of God, BUT WE ARE NOT ALL CHILD MOLESTERS/RAPISTS. They should not get a free pass just because “oh, they’re sinners and they can’t help it!” F**K THEM. And f**k those who hide them. Enabling idiots.
Mark, I don’t know if you are deliberately avoiding the point or if you really don’t see it…but the reason we feel so strongly about this is that unlike a man getting a DUI, even with his kids int the car, or a woman who has had an abortion or a homosexual, these people are not a clear and present threat to the immediate safety of the children in the congregation.
The DUI father is not going to look for an opportunity to entice your kids into his car so he can drive under the influence with them. The mother who had an abortion is not going to look for opportunities to get your children alone to do what?? The homosexual is not going to look for an opportunity to be alone with your children in order to have sex with them (contrary to popular belief, especially among the church, pedophiles are NOT generally homosexual).
The verse I quoted before from Luke 16 still seems to apply. The ‘world’ recognizes the danger sex offenders represent to re-offend. That is why the sex offender registries exist. Do you really not see the difference?
Mark –
No, Mark. You don’t need to inform the whole church about everyone’s sin or legal issues but, again, the government does inform the public about sexual abusers. The church should do as much to protect children. The purpose is to protect children and past victims from abuse and further abuse. Why do you think that a church needs to inform about ALL legal issues if they inform about pedophiles – that is a wrong assumption on your part.
You seem to have a private purpose for continuing your comments on this blog. You seem to have some problem with Dee and you are concerned with her motives, but you show little (or no) concern with the motives of an abuser who moves back in to the neighborhood next to his victims.
You need to talk to insurance companies that insure churches and see what they suggest as policies to keep children safe. You might learn some things about pedophiles.
Mark,
There is absolutely NO correlation between homosexuality and child sexual abuse, except that some abused children become gay as well as wounded otherwise. The greater percentage of sexual abusers of children are heterosexual, more so than represented in the general population. That is, when/if they have a sexual attraction or interaction with an adult, it is with an adult of the opposite sex. In fact, most are male and are or have been in a dominant/submissive relationship with an adult female, as the dominant.
I have read the statements transcribed from recorded interviews of child sex victims. They are atrocious tales. A four year old girl forced to perform oral sex and describing what happened when the man ejaculated in her mouth. A ten year old boy whose first sexual experience was a man performing oral sex on him. These are sick people who get their jollies out of control and the innocence of children, taking it from them for all time.
As an Attorney and a Psychologist, I think you need serious psychiatric treatment. Go get it.
I guess nobody’s gonna take my advice and ignore him…
Nicholas, I hear you. And I appreciate you’re telling us.
However, my primary purpose in responding is to make sure those reading see the response. I hold no illusions that Mark will actually consider what we have said. But others reading, especially other victims who will feel the pain of his words, will also feel the encouragement of the response.
I got it.
Mark
Your comments are beginning to get a bit out of line. Much of what you say is not making sense. You take us down one path and then suddenly go down another. There is something that is not making sense.
You are upset that we critiqued this situation. I understand that.
You are upset that we are concerned about the effects of a pedophile on the neighborhood in which he committed his crime. I get it.
We disagree with you and with your approach. I think it is time to dial this back. Unless you will share with us why this situation has become so personal for you, You may continue to comment but i may no longer answer you.
Please show me through example where there is legal precedent to inform church members there is a person convicted of a sex crime attending services. That’s what you want, just show me where it has happened and how it turned out. Convince me that it is legally allowed and has precedent.
Mark
The more I think about what you have said, the more my heart goes out to you. Something is deeply troubling you. Were you ever hurt by someone? Please feel free to email us if we can be of assistance.
What sins/criminal records need to be reported to the entire congregation and which do not? You read the sins I mention and have a visceral reaction, comparing everything to child abuse, which I did not. But you cannot see how telling the congregation about any sins is probably illegal in the first place. If it is not, show me where, give me precedent. I am not the one who started this thread. Apparently the pastor didn’t do something that Dee felt he should do, but I am not entirely sure what she expected of him. My admiration for this blog, which I have had for a long time, is taking a serious nose-dive. Please provide clarity on what the pastor should have done and explain how that can be accomplished without creating lawsuits. This is your ballgame, not mine. Take it and show us how it should be done.
Mark –
You go research yourself about churches and pedophiles. You don’t want to hear from anyone here. They can’t live near schools and parks can they.
A church does not need legal permission to warn a congregation if there is a pedophile attending their church. God gave me simple common sense to know that people would need to have this knowledge in order to keep their children safe. It’s a no brainer.
“The more I think about what you have said, the more my heart goes out to you. Something is deeply troubling you. Were you ever hurt by someone? Please feel free to email us if we can be of assistance.”
I was never abused or hurt by anyone. This is why I say rational argument isn’t present here. These insinuations are making me lose so much respect for this blog. Please show me that you can go deeper than this. I can. I have tried. All I know is that you avoid answering me directly.
“A church does not need legal permission to warn a congregation if there is a pedophile attending their church.”
Again, show me examples!
It has happened. Quite frequently. And it is a matter of prayer within some congregations that all involved will maintain a Christian demeanor while being watchful to help the convicted brother stay on the straight and narrow and avoid the temptation of being alone with potential victims. The instances of which I am personally aware did not garner news treatment nor any court action.
When I help a church write a policy and procedures to protect children from abuse, I normally recommend and provide a policy and procedure to notify church members who have children in the age range. It includes posting a picture of the pedophile in the hallway leading to the part of the church where the pedophile’s target age range are, posted at adult eye level, with this statement. “This person is welcome in this church but not in this area. If you observe this person in this area, please notify church staff immediately.”
If the target age is teenagers, then they are informed and told to alert leaders if the person is seen at or near any function involving teenagers.
All church staff are provided with a photo and the restrictions, as well as an indication of the target victims of the pedophile.
These policies and procedures have the support of the major church insurers.
I cannot provide you the names of my clients who have implemented these policies and procedures. That would violate the Bar rules and result in losing my license.
Dee, I just found a new book about church abuse: http://www.preacherspet.com/
Here is a comment from the author: http://www.fundamentallyreformed.com/2012/08/01/jack-schaaps-fall-and-the-future-of-the-ifb-movement/#comment-26473
Thanks Attorney. That is the rational response I was looking for. So, would you suggest to a client that the pastor send a letter or email to an entire congregation concerning the criminal record of a congregant? Would there be a legal requirement for a church to do this for a convicted child molester? It’s one thing to post it in a hallway where teens are gathered, another to send it to everyone in the congregation. The pastor in this case sent a letter to everyone after the media ran a story. Should he have sent it out 3.5 years ago when DC started attending?
Also, I noticed that you never said it was posted what crime, if any, the person was convicted of. Would you, as an attorney, recommend that the crime be outlined in any communication? Would you recommend that a pastor alert everyone in the church [via a mass letter or in the newsletter or in an email] to the danger and [in order] to protect the kids?
Mark –
So . . . you only take the word of an attorney? He/she said nothing different than what others have said.
It is interesting that you want people to prove things for you and you don’t go research for yourself. You can’t seem to logically come to a conclusion about how to keep children safe from a pedophile without someone “telling you” and giving you “proof.”
You seem more concerned with the legal aspect of exposing a pedophile than with protecting unsuspecting children and families.
Mark
I am not trying to garner your respect. I am here to write what i think. I am also here to care about people. I miff off people all the time and will continue to do so, probably starting with a post I am planning for tomorrow. There are a bunch of blogs out there. Surely you can find one that you respect. If not, you can start one. Deb and I did and if you have something worthwhile to say, along with tenacity, people will find you.
It is perfectly appropriate to tell other people, lots of them, like in a church, that Don was convicted of a crime involving kids. It is true-not a lie. It is a matter of public record.
Also, unless a person resigns from a church, church wide meetings which mention the sins of those members are allowed unless they can be proven to be lies. The state will not interfere with private religious matters. We have done a number of articles on this and even had an attorney give us his opinion (not to be misconstrued as legal advice) on how to resign from a church. Never join a church until you understand what they can, and cannot do, legally.
Nicholas
I look forward to reading her blog when I have a moment. It sounds very worthwhile. Good for her.
Dee – it seems to be the night for trollish comments. I thought I’d come here for a quick escape. Didn’t work.
Obviously people don’t like what we’re doing, huh?
Off-topic for the thread, but I suspect this will be of general interest to WW readers.
Headline is “Church Stages Kidnapping of Youth Group Members”. I shudder to think about how many grown adults green-lighted this plan.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/church-stages-fake-kidnapping-youth-group-students/story?id=16012844#.UChxd6Am9Ao
Bad Dog –
I had already read the news story on this and was angered. I know this mentality – my denomination of birth is guilty of this type of ‘educational’ tactics. They may even have originated this particular idiocy. I know someone who spent some time in Teen Challenge and was subjected to this exact thing.
The most infuriating thing about it is that one of the teens that was present when this happened was NOT a member of the church or even the denomination and had NO idea what was going on. She was terrified and thought she had been kidnapped by terrorists – the conversation that these people had was designed to make it seem real, which resulted in her fearing that she was in imminent danger of being raped.,,,and in the process of kidnapping these kids, she was injured. And it was real kidnapping, in her case at least, as she did not have warning (nor did her parents) that this might happen and was taken against her will. And they are making excuses – ‘the teens knew it was a reenactment,’ etc., etc., ….well, maybe the ones who go to church there figured it out, but this young woman had NO way of knowing. Grr…..
It reminds me of Orson Wells and his infamous Halloween radio broadcast in the 1930s. He did a dramatization of War of the Worlds. The problem was, the dramatization was done in such a way to sound like a news broadcast and he did not regularly inform his listeners that it was a dramatization. As a result, many thought they were listening to an actual news report and took action accordingly. The results were tragic for many. This resulted in some regulations regarding how fiction is broadcast on the radio.
That was bad enough, but this is worse because the purpose is to try and immerse the teens in the realism of what it would be like to be ‘persecuted for their faith.’ It is a sick and twisted concept.
@Jeannette
1. Under any circumstances, this was incredibly dumb, but,
2. Given recent events like Aurora, it was in spectacularly bad taste and incredibly dangerous. One can only imagine what kind of chaos could have ensued if one of the unsuspecting teens had managed a 911 call and a tactical unit had responded. Or if a armed passer-by or patrolling officer had seen them being loaded into a van at gunpoint.
3. Don’t even get me started on Teen Challenge. These are people who are committing felonies, but it’s no problem because it’s all for a good purpose.
I hope they get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
Re Mark and his psychobabble rap- From my experience with abusive personalities – you can try to reason and debate with these annoying fake people till you are blue in the face and it would not make one bit of difference. There is something missing in their soul. Nothing you say will ever change their point of view. The Marks and Jimmy’s of the world is what is wrong with this world.
Mark, I can only speak of what I know of the process in my diocese down here in Australia, but if someone is being investigated for or charged with a crime like pedophilia or child pornography, the congregation is informed and the person involved not only cannot attend that congregation but cannot attend the whole denomination while the legal case is proceeding.
I wonder what the reaction would have been if he had taken out a gun and shot the same number of children? The only difference is that sexual abuse works more like a timebomb than a bullet. But it is a form of murder just the same
Pam, I second that. here in Australia, paedophilia is now handled really strictly. Any allegation means suspension fropm all ministry responsibility and they are forbidden to attend any church function or activity where children may be present
That Bad Dog –
I saw that story and thought the church was incredibly stupid. Forcing empathy through aggression and abuse? What morons.
On a lighter note – if you’re an Arrested Development fan – it made me think of George Sr’s ‘lessons’…
Searching on –
AMEN!!
“This idiotic idea that “all sins are equal” has been in the mindset of the church at large for far too long. NEWS FLASH: Not all sins are equal.”
I think this accounts for the general lack of discernment and wisdom in churches today. We are called to judge soundly but some christians seem so hell-bent on not judging at all that God is misrepresented as making no distinction between a traffic violation and child molestation!
@ MM:
“We are called to judge soundly but some Christians seem so hell-bent on not judging at all that God is misrepresented as making no distinction between a traffic violation and child molestation!”
…Or between denial of the Atonement and a difference of opinion about card tricks. Yep, I actually saw that one happen.
Mark,
A convicted child molester is also a registered sex offender. In many jurisdictions, a post card is sent to all residences in the same zip code or an area of a certain radius, such as a mile, from the residence of the RSO, all perfectly legal and appropriate. Some of those include on the card a photo of the offender.
I believe that a church has an overwhelming responsibility to protect children entrusted to its care from known or suspected child sex offenders, with the latter, those suspected, based on some demonstrable facts. A letter to parents or members at large is one approach that has been used and has been supported by the church insurance industry.
The innocent charged with a sex offense and the truly repentant offenders generally try to stay aware from any public exposure and generally do not attend church, or if they do, try to stay away from potential victims. The ones who feign repentance and talk about their rights are those who tend to re-offend more often than the others. However, even the truly repentant are at great risk of re-offending, for the sole reason that many cannot control the urges that they have.
So, I do not think it inappropriate to inform the congregation.
There is another crime that I think needs to be made public within a congregation, and that is the person who uses his church contacts to scam them from their financial assets while posing as a successful “Christian” investment counselor or businessman. These people go from church to church, until caught, and then often get a slap on the wrist, and go back to doing it again. It is a crime perpetrated through the church, and sometimes the person in the pulpit is used to tout the “investment” to the potential victims.
MM,
a lack of discernment, yes.
Morning coffee has alerted me to how much better I could have worded last night’s comment, I’m glad one or two of my sentences made proper sense. I let the trollish comments get to me, I don’t usually but this subject hits close to home.
Jeannette Altes at 9:12 PM said it much more coherently than I did, anyway. To Jeannette: Exactly! Couldn’t have said it better (and didn’t). 😉
@dee on Sun Aug 12, 2012 at 04:40 PM said:
“I do not know if any statistics really exist on long term change in the pedophile’s nature. I wonder if the odds are so low that this is the reason that the Chemical Castration bill was passed in Louisiana. I need to do some reading on this”.
Dee, I’d be interested to hear of any results.
See link – this is a very sad case – Turing had the choice of gaol or chemical castration and chose cc with devastating effects. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing
http://www.turingfilm.com/
I have been trying to find the links to a program I believe was made by your ABC a few years ago on abuse by Catholic priests – it had interviews with convicted priests, one of whom had a desire to change and had undertaken surgical or chemical castration – it didn’t change the desire he said, because his mind was switched on that way. If I can find it I’ll post.
I assume this is a variant on the “Show Me SCRIPTURE!” thoughtstopper?
And it is a rigged statement. No matter what examples are shown, they will never be enough. Flaws always found (down to spelling errors) and used to discredit the entire example. Always demands for more more more examples, each of which is nitpicked and discarded in turn until you run out of them. Then Mark crows in triumph.
I’ve been browbeaten by family, by Young Earth Creationists, by classic Communist Intellectuals, by soul-winners, all using this exact tactic to PROVE they are always right. No right, no wrong, only Win the Debate. Two Plus Two Equals Five.
TBD
I tweeted on that kidnapping last week. My duaghter was on a weekend retreat in which one of the fathers thought it would be funny to crawl through the window of the cabin with a chains saw (minus the blade) running. The girls was terrified. He just thought it was funny, no "lesson" inovlved. I swaer these guys are a bunch of yahoos.
MM/TBD
I have always been astonished at the” sin is sin” doctrine. We all sin. But not all of us molest children or shoot and kill people in a movie theater. Some sins are worse than others. People misapply biblical doctrine all the time. Matthew 18 is one of them. I am astonished how some Christians try to shut up genuine critique by misunderstanding the context. but then again, lots of pastors do the same. It is easy to fool the flock by putting one’s own spin on the Bible.
Hester
I am intrigued. Could you explain the card trick thing? I have heard people condemn "magic" tricks because it is evil. Do these people not understand that it is a trick?? Good night!
An Attorney
Dee is standing in her kitchen applauding this statement .
“I think needs to be made public within a congregation, and that is the person who uses his church contacts to scam them from their financial assets while posing as a successful “Christian” investment counselor or businessman.”
Haitch
I had forgotten about Turing’s situation. So, do you think it was deliberate or accidental? Fascinating, especially with its tie to homosexuality, a subject which I broach today with fear and trembling.
That Bad Dog –
If my husband had been a teenager in that youth group, at least one of the “kidnappers” would have gotten seriously hurt- or killed! He always thought about ways he would take action in a scary situation like that, and he has always carried a large pocket knife. Not to mention, he had a bit less regard for his own safety back then!
Dee-
This story makes me think about how my church handled a pedophile situation, the “right way”, IMO. Our church is very small, but we also rent the bottom floor to a Spanish-speaking congregation. The top floor is our sanctuary, and the middle floor has classrooms, offices, bathrooms, etc, that we share with the Hispanics.
One Sunday earlier this year, our pastor asked parents of young children to meet with him after the service. Our church is so small, there were only a few of us. The pastor explained that the Spanish church had invited a convicted pedophile, who had been two weeks out of jail after serving 18 months, into their congregation. They wanted him to play piano for their service, but my pastor told them no, because that was a “worship leader” position. He said many of them were angry, and threatened to leave the church, because “the man had served his time, and came to Christ, and repented”. The pastor put his foot down though, and also told them that this man was not to set foot on the second floor under any circumstances, and he would be accompanied to the bathrooms with an escort. If he violated any of those rules, he would have to leave the church.
The pastor gave us printouts from the sex offender registry website, which shows the man’s picture and vague details of his crime. We all felt that it seemed like the best course of action that he could have chosen. I never actually saw the man, and I don’t really know what happened with him and the Hispanics, but I do know that we all felt safer for at least knowing his face. My respect for my pastor definitely grew that day.
Toffeemama
Applause for your pastor.
I checked out the map of registered offenders in my neighborhood. There are about a dozen in easy walking distance. (How many unregistered?) Then it occurred to me– there are also around a dozen churches in the neighborhood, none of whom have anything to do with each other, to my awareness. Just one complicating factor in how churches deal with pedophiles.
@ Dee:
I will send you an email with the story, as it is far too long and complicated to put in a comment. Let’s just say it runs the gamut from hilariously stupid to terrifyingly sad.
I checked out the map of registered offenders in my neighborhood. There are about a dozen in easy walking distance.
What makes it more complicated is the lists typically don’t say exactly why they are on the list. Some are there because when they were in high school but 19 they went too far with their 17 year old girl friend who changed her mind later. Or they were convicted of a vicious rape and served their time. Or they were convicted of a vicious rape and later found to be innocent and have been released but for various reasons are still legally a convicted felon.
I’d look up the specifics of any situations before I publicly made any announcements about anyone found on the lists.
Re: Chemical Castration
This only works if you see sex as the goal for any pedophile or sexual predator. The desire for power and control is in the brain/heart. Sexual abuse can/does happen without the use of genetilia.
J. Terry said; “The Marks and Jimmy’s of the world is what is wrong with this world.”
[ So we’re the sinners ruining it for the rest of the world? Interesting assessment. Sadly, I suspect the majority of the Wartburg commenters share your views J. Terry.]]
Lynn, good call. In the UK we had a case or two of people being put on the sex offenders register for urinating in the street. Not sure if he/they are still there.
jimmy,
To take off all religious cloaking devices, this is how you come across:
Ideology always wins over empathy.
Lynn, I’m very appreciate your you pointing out the inconsistencies of databases when it comes to comparing apples to oranges. There are SERIOUS, HARDCORE sexual predators out there and then are are those who are not serious, hardcore predators. Yet they share the same database.
SUICIDE is the sin that that gives me nightmares and oft troubles my waking hours.
Jimmy
Why does suicide trouble you in this instance?
Jimmy –
He didn’t say you were the sinners ruining it for the rest of the world.
Dee, there’s no recovery from suicide; It’s always “one and done.”
Jimmy
I know that. Who are you thinking about when you mention suicide.
Secondly, suicide is not the unforgivable sin.
Suicide is an awful awful thing. I know, because I’ve considered it.
I bet more abused children commit suicide than abusers. There are a lot more of them, for a start.
As to the sex offender registries, I guess it depends on where you live how good they are. The county I live in has a very good one. All sex offenders, from those who urinated in public to serial pedophiles are in the registry. But the registry has degrees – color coded. If you were convicted of indecent exposure or soliciting, that is the lowest degree and your name is not listed, just your location. Everything else, the name is there along with a detailed description of the charges you were convicted charges of. There is a bright red flag on those that are considered violent sex offenders and they are more closely monitored.
I discovered that one of the managers where I work is a registered sex offender and that his crime involved a child. This has made work a little difficult. I could not work directly for him and if they transferred me, I would tell them why. I initially wondered if I should let them know, but where I work we are required to have an FBI background check, so they are aware.
Jimmy – please get in touch with Dee. She is someone that I trust, and I hope you can too.