Why I Will Go to DisneyWorld and Chick-fil-A and Skip Wiley Drake’s Church

Pray for Eagle!

wikipedia public domain
Chcik Fil A  Houston-Wikipedia

Although I am so concerned for Eagle, I decided to go ahead with this post. Yesterday he told me that he enjoyed reading “two women going after the establishment.” So, this post is dedicated to him. I think he would like it.

The Chick-fil-A  boycott

On Wednesday, I plan to go get a big box of Chick-fil-A nuggets and a gallon of diet lemonade to make my famous diet Arnold Palmer- recipe at the end of the post. However, the reason I am going may be very different than the reasons given by many of today’s evangelicals. On August 1, Christians have been urged to go to Chick-fil-A to show support for that enterprise. LGBT groups are asking people to boycott Chick-fil-A because of the owner’s expressed beliefs on traditional marriage.Link

“Chick-fil-A President Dan Cathy — the son of company founder S. Truett Cathy — addresses here what the publication describes as his franchise's "support of the traditional family." Cathy's somewhat glib response: "Well, guilty as charged."
He went on to note, "We are very much supportive of the family — the biblical definition of the family unit. We are a family-owned business, a family-led business, and we are married to our first wives. We give God thanks for that…we know that it might not be popular with everyone, but thank the Lord, we live in a country where we can share our values and operate on biblical principles."Also, “Cathy’s organization (reportedly) has contributed  “$2 million to anti-gay groups over the course of 2010. Among those to reportedly receive donations through Chick-fil-A's WinShape Foundation were the Marriage & Family Foundation ($1,188,380), Exodus International ($1,000) and the Family Research Council (also $1,000).”

Now, everyone seems to be getting into the act. Most LGBT groups are boycotting. Several mayors have said they no longer support the company moving into “their neighborhood.” A number of universities are reportedly considering kicking the company off campus.  This, in spite of the fact that the company does not discriminate in the hiring of, or service to, people due to religion, race, gender or sexuality.

I am disturbed but not for the reasons indicated.  Here is an embarrassing  true confession. A number of years ago, in my relative youth, I did a one-woman protest against Levi when I heard the company would no longer give money to the Boy Scouts of America because they were “anti-gay.”  Levi somehow survived my boycott. Besides, cuter jeans were available under other labels (Not Your Daughter’s Jeans is one of my favorites) so I would have stopped buying Levis anyway.

The SBC Disneyworld boycott

In 1997, the SBC decided to declare a boycott Disneyworld for their apparent support of “anti-family” agenda which seemed provoked by giving corporate benefits to same sex partners ,amongst other issues here. They ended their action in 2005. " They claim their boycott was effective but there is little proof of that since same sex benefits along with LGBT day in the park are still ongoing. Link

Why is Wiley Drake’s church is still a member of the SBC?

The SBC boycotts the evils of Disney but allows the following evil to occur within their ranks. Wiley Drake, the head of an SBC church stated “This old war horse is not ready to quit either, and I'm going to keep fighting Walt Disney Company," Drake said. "I live within four miles of Disneyland and their headquarters, but it is time for us as Southern Baptists to say what we did was a boycott and it worked. We have cost them hundreds of millions of dollars. Michael Eisner himself said, 'That blankety-blank Wiley Drake cost me $10 million off of my bonus this year.'"

Just so you know what a “godly" man Wiley Drake is, ,watch this video of him declaring he prays  that President Obama would die. 


So "good Christian" Wiley believes that Disneyworld is evil for their actions but he is "godly?" This sort of prayer is blatantly unbiblical. Are any Southern Baptists boycotting Wiley Drake’s church? Sure, the SBC said that Drake does not speak for them yet his church remains a member of the SBC while churches led by women are thrown out. So Disneyworld is evil, women pastors are evil and Wiley is a good ol' Southern Baptist boy? What is wrong with this picture?

This Disneyworld boycott, on the part of the SBC,  caused me to question the value, wisdom,  and Biblical reasoning behind the idea of boycotts.  So, within the year, we took our kids to Disneyworld and had a blast. I am a particular fan of the Tower of Terror and Space Mountain although, more recently, Buzz Lightyear is one of my favorites.  Before I continue, I want to make sure my readers understand something. I believe it is your right, and the right of every other American, regardless of persuasion, to protest and boycott under the Constitution of the United States. I would fight for your right to do so. But, for the purposes of this post, I question whether it is wise to do so.

What is the purpose of boycotts?
It seems to me that boycotts are merely a way to coerce people to accept a particular viewpoint. Where in the Bible does it say to force people to accept our views on faith? There are no verses in the New Testament that encourage people to boycott Shadrach's Deli because he sold non-kosher in the side. Suppose the company acquiesces to the particular demand. Have we really acheived anything? Do we actually think they now “support” us? Or are we just another special interest group that has been successful in ramming home our agenda? Did we really advance the cause of the Gospel?

Does a boycott or protest change the hearts of those who are the target?

Here is where I get to be an equal opportunity offender. When my son was 10 years old, his Boy Scout troop was allowed to sell popcorn as a fundraiser outside of a local supermarket. Of course the dads of the boys were present but encouraged the boys to do the sales. A self-identified gay couple approached the table and asked my son why he would sell popcorn for a discriminatory group. The dads stepped in and tried to get them to move off to the side for a quiet discussion. Instead, the couple escalated the argument and called the boys terrible names. The store sent a manager out and the couple were told to leave the premises.  It scared my son and has left a lasting negative impression. Do Christians do the same?

As a country, we are a diverse group of people with many strong and somewhat differing beliefs. We must learn to communicate with one another or soon we will devolve into a group of warring factions, unable to carry on civil discourse. if that happens, can tyranny be far behind? We already have some in the fringe Christian community who are calling for the imposition of Old Testament law which would include making homosexuality and  adultery punishable by death. Link Is this what Christ died for?

Is a boycott the best way to witness to our faith?

Robert Jeffress, of the very rich First Baptist Church Dallas fame is encouraging Christians to support Chick-fil-A  on August 1 and has condemned the boycott. However, Jeffress has encouraged his own boycotts. He  has an annual ”naughty or nice” list in which he calls out companies who do not say “Merry Christmas” to his satisfaction. It is an underlying assumption that he does not want “good Christians" to support the “naughty” companies. We wrote a post called “Robert Jeffress and Nina Totenberg on My Grinch List”. Link  His list gets posted each year around November so the list link within the post is not working.

“Is this list, which demands a verbal “Merry Christmas,” the best way to witness to the birth of our Lord?

This question is the crux of the matter. Why not take this season as an opportunity to greet a harried checkout person who is desperately trying to ring up all the purchases and receiving a minimum wage for doing so? Can you imagine how tired he/she feels and, perhaps, a bit envious of all the gifts you can afford for your family? Why not show her/him some love and consideration? You could inquire how they are holding up. Why not smile, look in their eyes and call them by name (most wear a nametag)? How about buying a small gift card for a cup of coffee or a sandwich and give it to them, saying that Jesus makes this a wonderful time of year? Why not go up to the manager of the store and tell them how much you appreciate their establishment and compliment them on the decorations or flowers, whatever?

Or do you think they are really impressed with your blithe “Merry Christmas?” Can you imagine how he/she might feel about the war on Christmas if they read about the mean, minimum wage, overworked clerk who “refused” to wish them a Merry Christmas and instead said “Happy Holidays?” Wow, what a potent witness. I’m sure he/she will run to church on Sunday.

Are Christians viewed as peacemakers with these "lists" or just troublemakers? Of course we have the "right"  to protest but is that right stressed as a core value in our Bible in versessuch  as the Sermon on the Mount? "Blessed are the boycotters for they will force compliance with the Way?"

Do Christians really expect the secular companies to uphold the values of the evangelical set?

This one truly confuses me. More and more, I hear that only the regenerate can have the mind of Christ. So, why in the world should we expect anyone who does not have the Holy Spirit to see life as we do? Are we trying to introduce the world to our rules or to our Savior?

How do we pick which sins and which companies on which to focus?

This is a very tricky business. When a few of my very serious “boycott whatever I am told to boycott” acquaintances expressed dismay at my trip to Disneyworld, I asked them if they ever flew with American Airlines. As they nodded, I then asked them why they weren’t protesting that company’ decision to provide same sex partner benefits. Here is an interesting article on the companies which provide such benefits.

“The HRC's The State of the Workplace report found that nearly 51 percent of Fortune 500 companies are providing benefits to employees' same-sex domestic partners in 2006. The number of Fortune 500 companies offering domestic-partner benefits increased from 246 in 2005 to 253 in 2006, according to the report.

  • Recently it has been revealed that Steve Jobs believed that everyone should use acid and marijuana here. So, how many good Baptists are trashing their I Pads.
  • Christians are against premarital sex. So, should we protest companies that give benefits to live in partners?
  • There is a local barbecue restaurant that is run by a woman living with her boyfriend. Where are the protests by faithful Christians? 
  • There is also a local SBC church in which one of the pastors is morbidly obese. Should Baptists protest that church (And many others, I might add) due to Biblical injunctions on gluttony?

Perhpas we "good Christians" should just invent a booklet listing all potential sins that we can carry whenever we enter any business establishment. Then we could ask the owner to fill out the questionnaire to make sure they are purists before we spend one thin dime. Heck, why don’t we just retreat from the world and become self-sustaining to avoid all contacts with the "pagan" outside world? The problem is, we would still have to face ourselves. In fact, I am most firmly convinced that I would be compelled to lead the boycott against me. 

I do not believe that boycotts are the way to demonstrate the love of Christ to a watching world. At the same time, I do not believe that those outside the faith should be dictating to Christians what they should and should not believe. That is why I will no longer support such tactics, unless it is something heinous such as racial discrimination or human trafficking. In fact, I will make it a point to frequent any establishment that is the subject of such an embargo. If it is a Christian business, I will support them as a fellow Christian. If it is a secular organization, I will try to find a way to share the love of Christ with them.

So, on August 1, I am buying a boat load of nuggets for my family along with a gallon of their wonderful diet lemonade from the Falls of Neuse Chick-fil-A in Raleigh NC.

A Recipe for a Diet Arnold Palmer

One part Chick-fil-A diet lemonade 
One part unsweetened ice tea. 
Add extra Splenda as needed. 

Add ice and thank God that we live in a country that allows us to speak our mind!

Lydia's Corner: Genesis 5:1-7:24 Matthew 3:7-4:11 Psalm 3:1-8 Proverbs 1:10-19




Why I Will Go to DisneyWorld and Chick-fil-A and Skip Wiley Drake’s Church — 249 Comments

  1. I am opposed to boycotts. I do not frequent establishments that appear to discriminate or that have oppressive or exploitative employment policies, but do not boycott, except that I refuse to visit or go to meetings at some churches where the people should know better. Jeffries church is among those that I will not visit or go to a meeting there, because of their phony ‘war on Christmas’ stupidity.

    BTW, over my lifetime, I have had Jewish friend who said ‘Merry Christmas’ and to whom I said ‘Happy Hanukkah’. I also attend an all-faiths event twice a year, one time of which is a 9/11 candle light vigil; the local Muslim house of worship hosts that one each year.

    We are taught in the Bible to live at peace with those not of our faith. I also think we fail at living at peace with those of our faith.

  2. I stopped eating at Chick-fil-a (sexist name) a LONG time ago. It was due to high saturated fats. I have also stopped buying anything Apple. Mainly because they are too greedy and want to sue other android phone makers over silly patents, that should never have been issued in the first place. Yes, their gadgets are pretty. But I do not wish to pay for their lawyers to sue everyone else.

  3. I will be enjoying my chick-fil-a too on Wednesday. I might be a free-thinking egalitarian, but I’m also very much a traditionalist, and I’m PROUD of CfA for taking a stand and not pandering to the political correctness of the day. I am also supporting them because the MSM has unfairly lashed out at them and twisted their words and made a non-issue an issue.

    So August 1 will be a nice treat for our family for free speech more than anything else!

  4. “This one truly confuses me. More and more, I hear that only the regenerate can have the mind of Christ. So, why in the world should we expect anyone who does not have the Holy Spirit to see life as we do? Are we trying to introduce the world to our rules or to our Savior?”

    They are trying to impose rules. More and more, the Christian culture – the religious institution – seems to make being a ‘good Christian’ all about behavior, so it should come as no surprise that they would then try to control behavior inside and outside the church. The more they can get people to conform to defined behaviors – the more they can ‘look’ like and therefore be perceived as ‘good Christians’. And, if everyone is behaving like ‘good Christians’ then they can blithely say, “Move along, move along. Nothing to see here. No peeking under that rug, young lady, just move along. We’re all good Christians here.”

    Polishing the outside with no regard for the inside….that is the crux of most churches I’ve been involved with even when it comes to ‘winning souls’. They are only really concerned with polishing the outside of a person – controlling behavior – and really don’t care to know what’s going on inside. Which is why there are a lot of rabid behavior police running around in churches who seem to have no compassion. They haven’t been introduced to Compassion.

    “I do not believe that boycotts are the way to demonstrate the love of Christ to a watching world.”

    Since when has that been the goal of the of any institutionalized church? (My sarcasm is on high tonight….)

  5. I’ve never eaten Chick-fil-A, it hasn’t made it’s way down here. I probably wouldn’t eat it, though, but the main reason would be it wouldn’t satisfy my palate (sorry, Americans, but your fast food is terrible, all full of salt and fat and sugar and no real flavour). Still, what I’ve read in a few blog posts suggests it’s a bit more than just opposing gay marriage – this post discusses financial support for a group spreading really hateful lies about homosexuality: http://alise-write.com/chick-fil-a-and-hate-speech/

    I’m a long-time boycotter of a number of companies: Coca Cola, Nike, McDonalds, Shell, Nestle, Apple, for issues connected to human rights, health, and political freedom (I won’t go into details, I don’t intend to get on a soap box, and a quick google search will give anyone interested all the information they need). I have told others about my boycotting and my reasons, and have been joined on some things. But I don’t shout it from the rooftops or criticise people who don’t join me.

    To my mind, boycotts are useful, because money talks – Nestle is making some advances on the issues they’ve been guilty of after boycotts and long-term campaigning. And also, I want to be conscious of where my money goes. If I know a company is doing/supporting something I think is awful, I don’t want that company getting my dollars. At the other end, I want to support companies that do/support things I think are good (Fair Trade is one of these, and as a bonus, Fair Trade tea and chocolate are AMAZING). So that’s why I’ve taken part in boycotts.

  6. Thy Peace
    I have a friend who is with you 100% on the Android/Mac thing. I, however, am a sellout, totally, to Apple.

  7. Pam
    I defend your right to boycott. However, Coke??? I would not survive without my ever present Diet Coke. Alas, beverage over ethics…

  8. Thy Peace
    I just learned how to do it. Didn’t realize how easy it is. Everything is a chore for me. I still haven’t learned how to use my Smart TV. I view it as a mouse views a cat. I shall figure it out soon.

  9. dee
    I never care much for Coke itself, but my (former) favourite drink was one of theirs (Deep Spring Lemon Lime and Orange, not sure if it’s outside Australia or not?) and that did take a bit to decide to let go of!

  10. Pam – I’m with you on this one! Agreed that money talks, and it seems to me that this “support Chick-fil-A” deal is more about $$$$$ than it is about anything else. (Thinking here of the franchise model that so many American churches seem to have adopted, complete with in-house coffee and sandwich concessions…)

    But then, the whole “Shepherd’s Guide” business directory model has always given me the heebie-jeebies. Just because someone claims to “be a Christian” does NOT (sadly) mean that they are ethical, good workers/employers, as competent as other businesses, etc. etc. etc. I have seen some spectacularly bad examples of this – and yet, there they were, advertising in the “Shepherd’s Guide.” Ack!!!

    Dee – super-thank you for speaking out against any kind of imprecatory prayer, and especially for taking a stand on Wiley Drake’s horrific “prayer.” I always thought that kind of thing was called cursing… and not something Jesus taught, to say the least!

  11. Alas, I fear I can’t be loyal to any Arnold Palmer except Arizona Tea brand, the only Arnold Palmer endorsed *by* Arnold Palmer. Basically, if it isn’t in a double-sized can with Arnold Palmer’s face plastered on it, I can’t support it. So I’m afraid I’ll have to boycott your recipe, delightful as I’m sure it is.

  12. Well, if you wanna zing up that Arnold Palmer a big, use a little Firefly light in the mix.

    The following is a FB post from July 25 that generated a huge amount of likes and a few well-thought out but not ugly responses, except from one relative who plans to join the Kiss-in:

    “Thoughts on the Chick-Fil-A much ado about nothing: Oh, my goodness. Better not buy any Amish furniture or horse harnesses. They don’t believe as I do. And no more Jewish deli foods. They don’t believe like I do. No more Tom Cruise movies. He doesn’t believe like I do. No more stops in convenience stores — the owners might be Hindu and don’t believe like I do. Can’t go to any musicals or watch tv. The performers might believe differently than I do. Can’t go to the finest surgeon available; he might eat at Chick-Fil-A. As for me and my house, we will eat where the food’s good and the kitchen clean; we’ll watch tv and movies that we like; we’ll enjoy the accents of the guys behind the counter at the Hindu Hop-In as we purchase something made by the Mars family even if we don’t know where they stand on religious or political issues; we’ll hang out, as Jesus did, with fishermen and wise men and shepherds and tax collectors and prostitutes — and by golly, we’ll continue to adore Chick Fil A for their good food, their work ethic, and the way they treat their customers and employees. Even if the CEO is Baptist. Even if he were Hindu, or Jewish, or Presbyterian, or gay or democrat or republican or libertarian. And I’m not going to participate in the public amorous kissing of anyone on August 3 at any fast food restaurant, regardless of their sexual orientation. Get a room.”

    That said, I do agree that businesses who deal unethically will not get my business. Just as in SGM, sometimes the only way you can vote is with your money or your feet.

    The Kiss-In thing bothers me on several levels, but down deep and basic: my dad always taught us that you don’t go to a business’ parking lot or use their rest room unless you buy something from them. The Kissers-Elect don’t plan to buy anything. Tacky.

  13. 1. I’ve never actually eaten at Chick-fil-A, and I didn’t know they were Christian company for a long time. When I found out, it made perfect sense, because whenever HSLDA ran a “look at the wonderful homeschoolers functioning in the real live workplace!” article, they would find kids working at Chick-fil-A and being praised by their managers. It was NEVER any other company. I’m convinced that’s because the company is Christian. So that’s what I think of whenever I see a Chick-fil-A (which isn’t often – New England doesn’t have them).

    2. As for the Disney boycott, yes, we’ve all met that family who won’t go to Disney movies. (In my experience said “principled” boycott never lasted very long.) Personally I think it’s kinda funny that everyone gets in such an uproar over Disney, esp. that old line that they’re “anti-mother” because many of the princesses don’t have mother figures. So only mothers, not fathers, can have a positive impact on or be a good role model for a child? And in light of the fact that Disney’s customers keep buying products associated with said “anti-mother” movies (even though there are plenty of other Disney films which DO feature positive mother figures), wouldn’t that mean Disney “anti-mother” because that’s what its customers want?

  14. The fruit of the Spirit is capitalism, American Exceptionalism, consumerism, militarism, racebaiting, homophobia, Islamophobia, Rush Limbaugh, and Foxnews.

    I think this Bible tells me so.

    Not boycotting CFA. Not supporting CFA on 8/1. Gawd, I am so sick of this culture wars stuff. The CEO could have chosen his words with a bit more humility, and still conveyed the same message but hey, this is “war,” right? Infidels of the left don’t deserve respect and kindness and we might as well give them a preview of what their eternity will be like with our cutting invective.

  15. I want to make a genuine and polite request that people think twice about eating at Chik-fil-A.

    Not because of anything to do with the gay scandal, but because Chik-fil-A is founded on immorality.

    Jesus Christ said that not one sparrow falls to the ground without God knowing and caring. How much more, then, does God care about the way Chik-fil-A (and so many other fast food companies) allow and encourage their suppliers to treat millions of chickens.

    This is how factory farming is conducted in the USA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THIODWTqx5E

    Chik-fil-A is unique among fast food outlets in the way that it trumpets its commitment to biblical values while building its business on a foundation of cruelty. What an insult to the Creator!

    It’s not just the animals who are negatively affected by factory farming. The squalor these animals are confined in is a mardi gras for disease, so they are kept alive by being pumped full of antibiotics. What happens when diseases grow tolerant of these antibiotics and mutate to overcome them?

    I’m not saying people should be vegan or anything; I’m just saying that Christians should be mindful of where their food comes from and make sure it comes from ethical sources – not hellholes like Chik-fil-A’s farms. Of all people, Christians ought to be the first to take a stand and say ‘God cares about those animals’. Instead, the USA has one of the western world’s biggest self-professed Christian populations and some of the western world’s cruellest farming practices. Thanks to new regulations and public demand, Europe is better than it was, although we still have a long, long way to go.

    What’s glorifying to the Creator about the way we eat and the way we treat our fellow creatures? Does Chik-fil-A glorify God by inflicting immeasurable suffering on His creatures in the name of chicken sandwiches? I don’t believe so.

    What has upset me most about the Chik-fil-A thing is how it highlights the fact that none of the liberals who are going crazy over Dan Cathy’s remarks, and none of the conservatives who are hailing his moral uprightness, seem to have any concern for Chik-fil-A’s most immediate and numerous victims. It makes me feel really sad and hopeless.

    I don’t want to sound like I’m judging anyone because I think everybody here is amazingly compassionate, and I know that my eating habits too need to change. But this is meant to be a place where the voiceless have a voice, right? So I’m speaking for the chickens here.

  16. Great post that articulates well the frustration that so many of us feel with the "culture wars."

  17. Os Guinness made an interesting observation in one of his books: (a) liberals go to court to get legislation passed (b) conservatives launch crusades (or boycotts!) (c) in neither case do people actually seek to win the argument by persuasion rather than coercive behaviour.

  18. Go Sophie! And go the chickens. Sorry to take your post a bit off track Dee. But may the chickens one day see the sun, scratch some ground under their feet and get a few years under their belt. May Chick-fil-A only sell old broilers one day. Our modern, efficient, industrial farming practices obscures the reality of what happens to farm animals. I’m convinced that we don’t want to know the background to our meat products, that we want our eyes to stay firmly shut as to how animals are raised, transported and slaughtered. I remember a recent kerfuffle in the UK that revealed day old male calves from a dairy farm being shot (where I come from they get hit on the head with a hammer, so it was a step up). Did the complainers not realise that if you want regular milk that this action is a by-product of the dairy industry? Anyhow, to talk about something a bit more nice, I’m loving the initiatives coming out of the slow food movement, farmers markets, and artisanal gourmet food that is made with love and care. And Temple Grandin – she’s my hero.

  19. Garland

    I have the double can with his face on it as backup. Mine tastes better. Now, how  do I boycott you? Oh, i know, From now on no more double canned sized drinks. It must be bad for you.

  20. I think people need to really rethink the Aug 1 Chick-fil-A support nonsense. The issue of free speech is involved, as is the issue of cruelty to animals created by our Savior and mistreated on their way to Chick-fil-A. Also involved is the financial support of movements to enshrine hatred further into our laws.

    So I do not boycott, but I do not support either. And I think there are a bunch of Christians out there who are suckers for participating in either. It does not speak well of the faithful that we get yinned and yanged on things like this.

    Chill, people. Christians should be devoting themselves to things more clearly and directly relevant to the need of the world for caring and compassionate earthly representatives of the Lamb that was slain for our sins.

  21. Numo

    Everyday supposed Christians continue to shock me. I had not heard of this sort of prayer in my life! It goes against everything I know to be true. Do you think he is mentally unbalanced?

  22. Nickname

    That is an excellent comment at 12:46. Everyone should read it. I also taught my kids never to use a store’s restroom without buying something. That comment made me smile!

  23. Hester

    Your comment offered a very important insight. The Disney customers support Disney by the products that they purchase. I mentioned this in the post I did on Jeffress. People were buying the Happy Holidays, Frosty the Snowmen stuff. That’s what they want, that’s what they get  and that is capitalism. We need to stop blaiming hte companies. The companies merely reflect the demands of the consumer. That is Business 101. We have met the enemy and it is us.

  24. David

    The moment we stop viewing people as enemies and looking at them as precious creations of our Lord, we will be following the Way . In the end, it is the people behind all of this that are the concern.We should break down barriers to communication instead of erecting electric fences.

  25. Sophie

    Good point and I empathize with your concern. In fact, about a year ago I started buying free range chicken eggs and I occasionally buy supposedly “cruelty free” chicken. Even then, however, I do not fully trust their promises qand often wonder about the people behind these groups. Is it ethical or merely one further way to increase costs to the consumer by latching onto the ethical movement? The problem remains that i cannot guarantee anything that I buy comes from “good” people unless I buy it directly from a friend. Even then, there are no guarantees.

    I have noticed that prices on the free range eggs are coming down and they are often on sale. My local supermarket now markets their brand of free range for cheaper prices. So perhpas consumers are waking up to the issues that you have discussed.

    And we are always open to differing points of view. I sense your care for God’s creatures. I am into rescue pug dogs and go nuts thinking about the people who previously abused my dogs.

  26. Kolya

    Graet comment about Guiness. We boycott, protest, scream and shout and the world is slowly going deaf. 

  27. Haitch

    I have to admit that, if I were to have to watch my own meat being prepared from slaughter table, I would become a vegetarian minus eggs and milk (what is that one called again)? So I take the chicken way out and ignore it. 

  28. 56 years

    An excellent comment, as always. I think I am a bit of a rebel at heart. If someone says to boycott, I usually respond by frequenting said establishment. In this case, however, I am being told to boycott and to frequent. What is a contrarian to do?

  29. If I boycotted everything I was told to boycott, I would be left with nothing to eat, nothing to wear, nowhere to shop, and nowhere to go.

  30. Kathy 

    He was rushed to a hospital in an ambulance suffering from a rapid and severe septicemia, probably brought on by a simple cut. He spent two days in the ICU and is now on a cardiovascular floor while they decide if he needs surgery. He is very sick.

  31. I appreciate your post Dee…. I am not particularly fond of boycotts either. The only reason I will support Chick-fil-A Wednesday is to stand up for the constitutional right to freedom of speech. What’s happening here is close to fascism. Many in the government want to stop Chick-fil-A from businesses being built because of an agenda- that is just wrong. No matter how you may disagree on a certain busimess, as long as they are operating within the law they have a right to conduct that business. If Starbucks (who gives to homosexual org.) wanted to open a business next to where I live even as a Christian, who does not agree with homosexuality, would never want to shut it down. This is what this country was built on- freedom, not tryanny.

  32. Remember this situation has to do with GOVERNMENT wanting to shut Chick-fil-A down, not just a boycott. Whatever party is in power- no one has the right to shut any of these businesses down unless they are breaking laws.

  33. I have seen nothing suggesting that the federal government wants to shut down Chick-fil-A. I have seen where Chick-fil-A or at least its owners, have been supporting a campaign to deny civil rights to people based on their gender preference by amending state constitutions. I do not agree with that, but would not seek to shut down nor boycott the business. I do not eat at Chick-fil-A for dietary reasons — I do not eat breaded and fried anything, except okra, and then prefer it with corn meal and fried in coconut oil.

  34. Faith

    That is a good reminder. I have heard that Rahm Emmanuel. the mayor of Chicago and Thomas Menino, mayor of Boston who first said they would not allow a Chick fil A  in their icities have slightly backed down.

  35. 56 Years

    It was the mayors of Chicago, Boston and DC who made some threatening statements about not “allowing” CFA in their communites. However, Chicago and Boston have backed down a bit but i do not know about DC. Unfortunately, I think their diet lemonade is the best around which shows my love of beverage trumps my ethics. Darn

  36. Our modern, efficient, industrial farming practices obscures the reality of what happens to farm animals.

    I’m a first generation of my family that didn’t grow up “on the farm”. But it was still around while I was a teen and into my adult life. And had been for 150 years. I have a hard time with calling modern farming methods cruel. Compared to the past they seem in many ways quite humane. I suspect they are really only cruel if you are comparing them to the way we raise our pets.

    LIfe on a farm for chickens, pigs, cattle, etc… wasn’t really all that nice for the past 4000 years or more unless you are thinking of the very small situations were the cows, pigs, and chickens were kept in the house in the winter for warmth.

    And yes I have watch a cow and pig turn into packaged meat and I’m still willing to eat it. Well, most of it.

  37. Sophie –

    YES! Thank you for raising this point. It’s an issue that I wish would be considered more in Christian circles.

    The kingdom of God is one where the wolf and the lamb will live together, and calves with lions. The idyllic perfection of the Garden of Eden didn’t include the killing of animals for food (which is only depicted after the Fall). I think these examples could be a starting point to thinking about a God-honouring response to animals.

    If we, as Christians, are called to be Christ-like, what does that look like in regards to what we eat? Surely it means that we need to consider the ‘least of these’, those beings who suffer but cannot defend themselves.

    If we are called to extend Christ-like love and compassion, laying down our lives for others, then it means that there is a point at which our own preference becomes secondary if it harms others, even down to the little creatures entrusted to humans in their dominion on earth.

  38. I so agree. The selective and hypocritical way that cultural Christians “judge this and not that” makes me sick. But, I can say the same thing about the folks protesting Chick-fil-et.

    That being said, I do think that overall, a case could be made that there is a lot more tolerance in the general Christian community in a cultural sense. If we boycotted every movie produced by a non Christian, every musician that is non-Christian, every product produced or sold by non-Christian leaning businesses, where would we be?

    I, for one, have decided that I will listen to music that moves me, watch movies that interest me, and read books that challenge me, regardless of who is making them. I believe that we are all made in the image of God and as such, we all have something worth expressing- even if I strongly disagree. Though I know many agree with me on this, I do wonder if some of the “tolerance ” is based on not paying attention. Also, it is always easier to be up in arms over sins that we, personally, find distasteful!

    I would add the same condition here , that I would not support business people who were involved in human trafficking, crime,violence against others or racial discrimination.

    However, the big thing here for me is that I think it is a very scary idea that anyone would be attacked and/or shut down because of their religious, political, or other beliefs. What about the businesses run by those of other religions that have even more stringent views on homosexuality and other issues than do mainstream Christians ? What ever happened to the idea of diversity? It apparently only is extended to some.
    This is clearly a free speech issue and needs to be addressed very seriously.

    One last point- I find it weird that President Obama himself espoused the Chick-fil-et stand until recently. Also,we love Chick fil-et’s food , but would not hesitate to go to Disney World either, given the opportunity 🙂

  39. Actually some of the universities now are threatening to kick out CFAs.
    You are right Dee, they have backed down, but the fact they would even bring it up is disconcerting. This is just a beginning of the eroding of our rights in this country.

  40. I raise my own chickens and eggs at home, and try to eat ethically 80% of the time, but do indulge in chick-fil-a, bojangles, or other “chicken joints” that use CAFO systems once in awhile.

  41. Just some comments. Back when the Disney boycott thing was ramping up there were actually two issues. One had to do with their theme parks catering to gay community with special days and such. The other was with given out benefits to “non traditional” partners instead of just to married heterosexual couples. Lots of the pious and faithful were all up in arms. And I got excluded from some of my social groups because I brought up some issues.

    Almost all travel and entertainment related companies had gay related events or promotions or special marketing groups catering to at the time. More do now and are more open. Virtually all airlines, cruise lines, and travel booking firms do so. No one was advocatinging boycotting them. (I guess waling from NYC to Miami was too much of a sacrifice for the faithful.) Plus many other large companies would market at gay pride types of events. Companies such as IBM, Sprint, eitc… No was was tossing their computer or cell phone in the trash either that I recall.

    And the same was and is true with benefits. Most large companies, and many smaller ones, have offered benefits to a designated other for years. And yet I saw no one who was advocating a boycott of Disney also quitting their job at IBM, Cisco, SAS, American, Delta, etc…

    I have to ask. You’re in the emergency room with internal bleeding. Do you allow the atheist PETA supporter but best surgeon in the area to operate or do you wait an hour for the known Christian with 3 months experience recent graduate of the Barbados school of medicine and car repair?

    If you don’t like CFA chicken then don’t eat it. But if you want to boycott something over principle then be sure and let me know how that’s working for you as to dig into the policies of the companies that make your car, build you house, mow your yard, own your grocer, supply your cable or phone services, etc… (There’s not a TV service in the USA, I suspect, that doesn’t make a huge amount of its profit from what used to be considered PORN.)

  42. Remember this situation has to do with GOVERNMENT wanting to shut Chick-fil-A down, not just a boycott.

    The only thing I've seen is some elected officials making an a** of themselves by making comments that their lawyers told them to backtrack on the next day or so after they realized how wrong it was. As an elected official. Remember in the US we elect the government. We can throw them out also. (See 2006 and 2010.) Just be careful what you ask for. You just might get it.

  43. Laura that is why I love the Founding Fathers. They were from all different stripes but agreed on one thing that this country was given by God as a blessing and freedom is precious. I have learned from many people that I did not quite agree with and I will always uphold their right to disagree with me. I definitely hate though a mindset that wants to control others because of their agendas- I do not care where you come from. We as Christians should be secure enough in our faith that we do not act like the world and lash out at the world also. Dee is so right about we are to be as Christians.

    Laura, I like Indie rock music, will go to a hippy coffee shop (great place to witness to kids) and take in a good movie (without the sexual content and foul language); love traditional values (those that make common sense), but love change; homeschooling mom, but will put my children out their with un-believers.
    I think a lot of times people fear instead of having trust in our Savior to guide us into whatever is true, lovely, and of good report. 🙂

  44. Lindsey: “I raise my own chickens and eggs at home, and try to eat ethically 80% of the time…”

    What in the world does that mean?
    You don’t eat humans?
    Or, that you raise your sweet little chicks from infancy and then BUTCHER them and EAT them?

  45. We even have now Mayor Bloomberg of NY telling women they need to breastfeed instead of using formula. They are even putting away formula in medicinal lockboxes. This is why I am saying government is trying to dictate and control. What business is it of his?

  46. Love Chick-Fil-A! Me and my kids had lunch there this past weekend! Love Walt Disney World! One thing that BOTH have in common is the extraordinary level of customer service! For a quick-serv restaurant, Chick-Fil-A’s service is amazing! It’s also well know that they treat their employees better than the vast majority of quick-serv businesses (and generally pay them a little more too). Disney also has amazing customer service and I ALWAYS stay at Disney resorts when I visit.

    I don’t involved in the whole “boycott” culture – if I don’t like a business, they don’t get my money.

    The problem is, as Dee pointed out, you get to point where you can’t buy ANYTHING. Money is all tied together and probably has less than six degrees of separation. It’s like saying Company X was an employee that goes to Westboro baptist church and that person tithes. I’m not going to shop there because my money goes to his paycheck, which he then gives to that evil church who then use the money to go and protest the funerals of the men and women who gave their lives in service to our country.

  47. Haitch: “I remember a recent kerfuffle in the UK that revealed day old male calves from a dairy farm being shot…Did the complainers not realise that if you want regular milk that this action is a by-product of the dairy industry?”


  48. The Westboro Baptist Church is a weird/bad example of almost anything. As best people who’ve dug into it can figure out it’s really an extended family/group of friend that number less than 50. They show up announcing they are going to protest and then get told they will not be allowed. Their lawyer (a family member of the pastor) threatens a suit. Lots of press. Donations made by some. Then in many cases there is a donation made to some affiliated group to make it all go away. Plus legal fees and damages are sought if suits are filed. Makes Jessie Jackson’s extortion, err fundraising look quaint by comparison.

  49. “Baloney.”

    What part of it? You only get a dairy cow by them having a calf. 1/2 of the calves (give or take) are males. You either raise them as pets, food, or make them go away. And cattle bred for dairy operations are likely not very profitable (if not a loss) for food operations.

  50. Faith

    I believe that many people, if given the chance, would insititute changes that benefit the causes of which they are involved, some of those causes would be repressive. For all of its inherent inadequacies, our representative form of governance does somewhat limit the ability of tryants and nutjobs to impose harsh and extreme laws and punishments. My friend from Norway tells me that the US  is unusual with the large numbers of people who acknowledge God. She believes that this brings some sanity to the process.

    Another thought: Christianity seems to spread most rapidly when it is supressed. One only needs to look at China to see this in play today. No matter what happens, it is comforting to know that Christ cannot be leglislated away since He lives in the hearts of the believers.  So Christ is present in freedom and in repression and thank God that our home is not of this world.

  51. TedS

    I love these discussions!  True confession: I buy free range eggs because I can afford the extra buck or two. However, if the price went up by $10 i would not buy them. My ethics appear to be affected by the bottom line. 

  52. Faith

    I heard about the breast feeding thing this morning in the news. Bloomberg is playing nanny. His thoughts are good. Obesity in the US population is now greater than 60% according to many reports. But can or should we legislate “health?” And how do we do so? Should we place chips in  he arms  the grossly obese to make sure they exercise 3o minutes a day and alert the police if they approach McDonalds? And which heath faux pas do we emphasize?  For example, high heeled shoes cause all sorts of injuries. Boxing can cause brain injuries. Then there is butter and cream… that stuff keeps my husband in business.

    My daughter was diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor when I was 7 months pregnant. I nursed my first two kids but did not nurse my son who was born between her two surgeries. I believe that breast feeding is the best for children but should we legislate it or make it difficult?   So many questions. In the end, we want to MAKE everyone healthy, wealthy and wise. But can or should we?

    Our Father seemed OK with free will. (Calvinista lurkers: this is not an opening for a discussion on election.:) ) He could have prevented the rebellion but did not. Why should we?

  53. Freedom

    Loved the Westboro Baptist example. Rumor has it that some mathematician has now said that, instaed of 6 degrees, there are actually only 4.4 degrees of separation. Go figure.

  54. Yeah Dee, love me that free will. 🙂

    I am a big health enthusiast and will be going back to school to study nutrition, but I also believe people will not change by force, in fact, the results are the opposite. We can just look at our kids to figure that one out when they become teens especially. In fact, before the government ever got involved with health, people have already been educating themselves on healthy living habits. Trends tend to turn people a certain direction and education.

  55. Dee I have to commend you and Deb for your balanced approach to things. I find it very refreshing to come on a site that tries to look at issues without hitching to extremes. We worship a God of order and balance.
    I may not always agree but I sure do respect you gals! 🙂

  56. Faith

    i just had a conversation via email with a reader who said she loved the blog but confessed she did not agree with us all the time. I had to laugh. She is from outside the US. I told her about the show,NCIS, in which the team’s leader, Gibbs, will slap a couple of his team members upside the head when they get a little out of line.  I told her that, if she agreed with me all the time, i would find her and slap her upside the head!

    It is a human tendency to want to be right all the time. And, if truth be told, on occasion I am sure I am right 100% of the time which is why God sends me people to challenge me and make me humble. There is a reason Corinthians talks about the members of the body. We need each other, desperately. I need you, Faith. I need your thoughts. your experiences, your perspective. I become wiser and richer for it and so does everyone else. Thank you for sharing your life with us.


  57. Sophie – re. your comment on chickens – preach it, sis! (Temple Grandin is one of my heroes, too.)

    Dee – mentally unbalanced? Kind of hard to say, given that he and others took up this “imprecatory” thing so quickly after Pres. Obama was elected. I think most of them are no more “mentally disturbed” than the Klan, Lester Maddox, George Wallace et. al. (Full of hatred and scorn for other human beings, yes.)

    Arce – LOLZ.

  58. Ok I will keep it to myself….. although I see Arce is putting things in perspective :0

    Sophie- I keep free range chickens (on my kindle fire in a game called Robinson) It sure is hard keeping them fed though-;)

    I would love to get free range chickens, but the economy won’t let me 🙁

  59. TedS – it means I try to eat clean. I eat fruits & veggies 90% of the time. The meat I choose to eat is raised by me or a local farmer I know and has a good life before it comes to my plate. I won’t engage in “meat is murder” discussions…just ain’t my thing.

  60. David C @ 4:58am – I totally agree with you!

    I’m also feeling a little conflicted. At first I thought, yes, I oppose boycotts like those that the Southern Baptists keep doing. They are silly and are merely fodder for minor and annoying culture wars skirmishes. And I’ve heard of others here in Canada – boycott Home Depot because they support gay marriage, etc. etc.

    But then I read Pam’s comment and remembered that I ‘boycott’ things like Coke, McDonalds, Apple, etc. for their labour practices (esp. in third world countries) and because they are unhealthy, or unethical in other ways, etc. etc. While I don’t broadcast my choices as a consumer for all to hear, these are boycotts of a sort. And yet like I said I’ve always thought it was dumb to boycott a company because its CEO believed this or that. Maybe I’m wanting to have my cake and eat it too?

    Of course 56 years and Tina bring up interesting points on responsibility in late consumer capitalism – to what degree is purchasing a product also complicity in the activities of the company that sells that product? I agree wit 56 years that Christians need to be devoting themselves to things clearly and directly relevant to caring for the needy, etc…But what about systemic or larger scale issues of injustice? If money makes the capitalist world go round, is caring for the needy in third world orphanages or inner city programs enough? Don’t get me wrong – these are vital. But they are also ‘end of the pipe’. I wonder if a lot of Christians will have a lot of answer for in terms of the economic and political structures that we support, implicitly or explicitly. I’m not talking about opposing a company whose CEO believes this or that (fleeting culture wars stuff) but I am talking about bigger issues of injustice that are structural and which Christians do not consider as important as I think they are. Or they think that they will become Marxists and that is clearly the road to hell.

    Of course, Tina is right – these issues and structures are often so large that we can feel helpless to do anything.

    These are difficult questions about our moral responsibility for the shape of our world and I don’t have an answer – but I do think about them a lot.

  61. “You don’t eat humans?”
    The principle Gospel ethics of eating: “But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.” Gal 5:15

  62. Caleb W – I like the way you think. I have many of the same questions and thoughts, which is why I hesitate to throw my opinion out on some matters. I am okay with saying I just don’t know. Or in the words of Barack Obama, “my position is evolving…”

  63. Lindsey, unfortunately that is an outcome of our politically incorrect culture. People do not want to be chastised for their opinions or beliefs. Instead of discussing (even in disagreement) we get offended way to easy; we have a hard time allowing dissent or an opinion. Jesus sure knew how to handle even the Pharisees; we can barely sit down and even be civil.

    I have a story about this kind of situation and it involves me. When I moved to TN after three weeks my dad past away; my mom and I were not close at all. I engaged in heated arguments with my mom about political issues (I am more conservative and my mom is slightly more liberal than I). I cannot to this day believe I was doing this to my mom after her husband passed away. I remember distinctly the Lord telling me ” Why are you not honoring your mom?” This struck me hard and I realized I did not have to always demand I was right. It has taken me a while to just be quiet and that I do not always have to force my own views, but to accept others giving their views also ; and that is what makes this country great!

  64. Wow… the imprecatory prayer thing.

    I’ve never heard of Wiley Drake, but yes, at my Reformed Baptist church imprecatory prayer is often spoken of in a positive light. They get it from the Psalms of David. I’m not sure to exactly what extent it is meant to be taken. Praying for the death of the President? I never heard anyone do that.

    I would love to hear others’ thoughts here about how we should view the many prayers in the Old Testament for the destruction of enemies. Places where David speaks of hatred for the wicked, etc. I’ve heard the phrase “love the sinner hate the sin” scorned because they say God hates both the sin and the sinner, and we should hate what God hates. (Note: I can’t remember if this has been preached from the pulpit or if I just heard it in conversation. I am coming out of this thinking ever since God assured me that He IS love, that He loves ME, and that this love is not what I’ve thought it was. So, everything in my memory is kind of blurred together now).

    My question is, why would Wiley Drake not rather pray for God to change President Obama’s heart? Surely a God who wants none to perish would rather do that anyway, right? Rather than focusing on hating what God hates and wishing death on people, wouldn’t it be better to focus primarily on loving what He loves… the transforming of hearts through the knowledge of Him so that they can LIVE… forever? But instead it seems the comformity route is always chosen to make change happen, like what Jeanette Altes was saying above. A War has been declared and conformity is the weapon of choice, no matter the casualties, because it seems the easiest, most obvious choice. But is this what Christ came to accomplish?

    What is it these people want… really?

    The Holy Spirit’s work, or their accomplishments?

    The transforming of hearts and the renewing of minds, or outward behavioral conformity?

    For people to love God, or to begrudgingly obey?

    Love that drives away fear, or fear that drives away love?

    Grace or Law?

    A Kingdom not of this world, or a kingdom of this world?

    Hearts or numbers?

    Every knee to bow to Christ out of genuine adoration of Him, or every knee to bow out of fearful coercion?

    To serve or to rule?

    Does Christ serve us so that through us He can serve the world, or do we serve Christ by making the world serve us?

    On and on and on… I see the splitting away from true Gospel to a false one. While they rail at the loathesome world for ‘exchanging the truth of God for a lie,’ they are blind to the possibility that they’ve done the same. Ten years as a ‘serious, doctrinally correct’ Christian and I see, now, that I believed exactly the same things about God that the world does: “He is not loving, He is not good. If indeed He exists.” That is how I was living without even realizing it. Only after my second child loss did I realize that this was what I believed… that God hated me… and that I didn’t even care. Such a high view of Scripture… yet such a low view of Him, of His Spirit. How did that happen? My ‘obedience’ was conformity, my own work, and had nothing to do with the transformation I now see Him doing in me since He showed me His love. Is this sort of obedience the end goal of postmillenial, theonomic, patriarchal, calvinistic Christianity? Or, for that matter, is it the end goal of Christianity as we know it today, in general? Where is the Christianity known for its love?

  65. Faith-love your comments. I too like many “alternative” things and I am kept sharp by a bunch of grown up and not quite grown up kids who think very much outside the box!

    There are times when I find more truth in the words of a punk rock song than in the whitewashed and generic lyrics of something called “Christian”. I agree that we need not fear what is out there.

    The devil here, I think, is in the idea of government control of thought and expression. I would not support it no matter what religion or philosophy or political opinion it was directed toward.People should have the right to eat anywhere they want or don’t want to. But its the hypocritical and selective bullying on the part of local governments that I detest. Let’s hope they continue to back down. If not, I don’t think they have a legal leg (chicken?haha) to stand on anyway.

  66. I agree Laura I find myself finding truth sometimes in a rock song because a lot of the time these young people will voice their true feelings and a cry out for help. I love Johnny Cash because even as a Christian his true feelings came out in his songwriting -very heartfelt and real.

  67. Wiley Drake’s problem is that Obama is a Christian and Wiley Drake is only acting like someone who thinks he is a Christian and is mistaken about what true Christianity is.

  68. Thanks Faith. 🙂 Been agonizing for three hours now over whether or not to post that. Ha. Glad you could appreciate it.

  69. Jan
    Good question. The OT lets us know, loud and clear, what happens to those who disobey God. Then, Jesus let us know that the law isn’t merely set of actions. It gets extended into our hearts. Adultery was defined by Jesus, not merely as an action, but as a heart issue (If you think it , you are guilty). So, he was in essence saying “Cut the nonsense. The Philistines were bad and so are you.

    This is very bad news indeed because, all of us are condemned as wicked, not just some group of Amalekites. Not one of us can escape it and we are helpless but…Jesus offers us a way and that is the grace offered at the Cross.

    Now we do not offer “imprecatory prayer because we know we are as fallen as the next person. We are only different because we have experienced the freedom of God’s grace.

    So, old Wiley made a terrible mistake. He is as guilty as he believes President Obama is. To quote our Calvinista buddies, “Wiley don’t get the Gospel.”

    I have linked to a blog of a teaching pastor who is the finest I have ever heard on this subject. You might want to take a look at it under the blog roll, Apt to Teach. Jim emphasizes our need for grace and the freedom we find in such grace. Imprecatory prayer would not fit his paradigm.

  70. Faith
    I can sing almost every song that Johnny Cash sang, except I sing them very badly. One of my fun memories was singing Orange Blossom Special with the brother of my Norwegian friend. Cash sounds great when sung with a Scandinavian accent!

  71. Thank you for pointing out that link, Dee. I will check it out. Been longing lately to find some excellent resources on Grace – the real, living kind.

  72. May I hold up the In-N-Out burger chain as a great Christian business model?

    – The burgers are excellent. Those of you residing outside the west coast are out lot luck. Hehehe.

    – The employees are very well treated and very well trained.

    – The restaurants are very clean and well maintained.

    – Unlike Chick-Fil-A stores, not all In-N-Out burgers are located outside of sketchy neighborhoods.

    The owners of the chain are devout Christians. Their business practices and successes are the envy of the world. And they have accomplished all this without going out of their way to stomp on political landmines.

  73. Jan

    The freeing kind of grace is what Jesus gives to us. I feel so sorry for the Calvinistas who are bound up in trying to prove that they are the elect. Imagine living one’s whole Christian life wondering if you are really one of the chosen?

    I still think of the man who visited here, defending election, and telling us he did not know if his handicapped children were part of the elect. He says he “trusts” God ,whatever that means. He believes in a harsh and punishing God that might condemn the mentally handicapped to hell. I see a gracious God who has given us the mentally handicapped as a gift to help lead us to God. 

    No matter how hard I try, i will screw up. Jesus loves me and died for me and that allows me to get back up and say “Keep moving on toward heaven.”

  74. Jan said, “I would love to hear others’ thoughts here about how we should view the many prayers in the Old Testament for the destruction of enemies.”

    I think the key phrase here is “in the Old Testament”. I don’t recall any imprecatory prayers recorded in the New Testament. That alone speaks volumes to me. I think it helps to realize that the Bible is a record of the unfolding revelation of God’s plan of redemption. It is so important that we read and understand the Old Testament through the lens of the New Testament. People in the OT times did not have the complete picture like we have now. Their understanding of who God is and what He is like was limited because Jesus – God in the flesh – had not yet come to earth. Some of the things that people believed in OT times were not quite right. Jesus came and set us all straight. He said, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.” (Matt. 5: 43-44) It’s interesting to read the different passages where Jesus said, “You have heard….but I say.” I don’t believe that Jesus would ever have prayed an imprecatory prayer and He would not want His children doing so, either.

  75. @ Lynn:

    Yes, the inconsistency is amazing. I personally know that Disney does “gay days” because the owner (who is gay) of a restaurant we frequent went to one recently, and when he came back he made the most adorable Mickey Mouse cupcakes. I know, that makes me a horrible Christian for eating at a restaurant run by a gay man. He even had a rainbow triangle on the door for a while.

  76. @ Dee:

    Did you know Doug Wilson endorses imprecatory prayer? Cindy Kunsman wrote something about it a while back but I don’t have the link on hand. He basically said that non-Christians are going to abort their babies anyway and well, maybe at some point we should just let them do it, because of Psalm 137:9 (‘Happy the one who takes and dashes [Babylon’s] infants against a rock’).

    And seriously, a Calvinist came here and wondered whether mentally handicapped people were elected? I never had any doubt that they were elect, even when I self-described as Calvinist. Also stillborn babies and children who died before being able to comprehend the Gospel. It would fundamentally contrary to God’s nature if they weren’t elect. Though I don’t think Calvin himself necessarily agreed on that point…

  77. Also, Dee & Deb, did you get my email a few days back about Doug Wilson being featured on the Huffington Post?

  78. “It  is a goal to experience that burger chain at least once.”
    My daughter recently visited Vegas (briefly, late at night). She failed to gamble, see a show, get married, or see Elvis, but she did experience an In N Out burger for the first time. She’d forgotten the name of it until I just now told her.

  79. RE: Pam on Mon Jul 30, 2012 at 11:22 PM,

    “…sorry Americans, but your fast food is terrible…”

    This Yank agrees. I wish I could still get the fish sandwiches I got when I was a kid (way back in the Jurassic Age) touring Istanbul. Freshly caught from the Bosporus , they were fried in olive oil along with shredded cabbage & onions on great long griddles right on the boat, right on the quay. Final touch was a dollop of red sauce (to die for) and then wrapped in flat bread

  80. Hester

    You are an awesome Christian. I, too, would have enjoyed those cupcakes. But, for the legalists you are down three points. One for discussing Disney in a positive light,.Two for frequenting an establishment run by a gay man. Three, for entering an esatblishment with a rainbow on the door!  But, they would need to mark me guilty as well. 


  81. Muff

    Unfair. Wish I could eat those fish sandwiches for dinner! My husband and I woudl like to take a cruise and see Istanbul, I have this vision of me doing the rumba  on the deck of the ship to the song “Istanbul, Not Constantinople.”

  82. David — Most of our family members have moved out of state, and when they come for a visit the first thing they want to do is go to In-n-Out.

    Dee — Remember to ask for animal fries with your double double. They are epically delicious.

  83. David, we have In-N-Out here in Texas now! 🙂 I must have gone on an off day, because the burger was tasteless and the fries tasted liked Pringles. I will need to try it again.

    Dee – I have been a member of the PCA (still am)since I was 9, and was in the patriarchy camp for about four years after I was married. It is more than a little sad that I didn’t realize that God LOVED me till about 2 months ago, and I am in my 30’s! I am currently going to a PCA that preaches grace and it really is the first church I have ever been to that does. I could go on and on about my story, but this isn’t the post for that. 🙂

  84. David, we have In-N-Out here in Texas now! — Kelly

    Civilization has reached you at last!

    In-n-Out is the classic “stealth Christian” company; no fishes, no proof-texts, just a Bible zip code on their wrappers. Oh, and they pay their employees better and treat their employees better than anyone in the fast-food biz except maybe Chick-Fil-A (which has also started to make inroads into the In-n-Out heartland here in SoCal).

    That said, you might want to stay clear of Chick-Fil-A tomorrow/Wednesday. With the Christians coming in to show their righteousness and gay activists coming in for a drag-in and kiss-in, things are going to get definitely weird and maybe ugly.

  85. When I hear the words (or hear a report of) “imprecatory prayer”, the first thing that pops up in my mind is a line from a scene from some Cecil B De Mille 1950s Bible Epic I once saw as a kid:


  86. Well still going to Chick-fil-A just for freedom of speech, but sure would like to try an In-N-Out.
    I have to say the CFA that is close to my house is owned by the sweetest Christian couple, so I do not like to disparage this company. I am pro small business all the way!

  87. People forget that imprecatory prayers are man talking to God in the Theocracy of Israel.

    When people move away from here and come back to visit, their first stop is White Castle. I have no idea who owns them. Could be Don Coleone for all I know. All I know is that folks get addicted.

  88. What ticks me off is the double standard. If you aren’t in agreement with homosexuality and gay marriage, then you are a hater and homophobic. Basically,you have no right to believe how you want(if you’re against it) but yet people exercise their rights to believe that gay marriage is ok. The thing is that people who think like this want it one way.Which is their way.

    Also, Jesus words are offensive to people who would rather live in darkness then the truth.Regardless of what it is.

  89. “I feel so sorry for the Calvinistas who are bound up in trying to prove that they are the elect. Imagine living one’s whole Christian life wondering if you are really one of the chosen?”

    Dee, I can imagine because I’ve lived it for years. Those times when you fail (and in this system, there are ways to fail God at every turn with all the new rules and restrictions), you wonder if this ‘bad fruit’ is evidence of non-election. Following close behind that discouragement is the despair of knowing that if you aren’t elect, you can never be. It is the Accuser’s playground.

    Add to that being told that the only reason you can believe with any amount of certainty that the dear child that you’ve buried is in Heaven and not suffering unspeakable torment in Hell, is because of God’s promises to the Elect and their children… powerful recipe for rejection of a loving God, as well as for obsessive efforts to please Him while despairing of ever accomplishing it.

    As I was holding my second lifeless child in my arms last year… that’s when “God is sovereign” translated into the conscious thought in my mind that He must hate me. Never doubted He was sovereign – only that He was good. His Spirit contradicted mine that day with a invitation to believe in His love and goodness, I know that now, but I fought it until sometime within the last few months. This comment would turn into a book if I tried to describe the change. But ALL of you here at TWW have helped me in some way – I’m so very thankful.

  90. Kelly,

    You sound just like me. I hope you say yes to writing a post. I am very curious about your story. 🙂

  91. “I think it helps to realize that the Bible is a record of the unfolding revelation of God’s plan of redemption. It is so important that we read and understand the Old Testament through the lens of the New Testament.”

    A helpful thought that I will be chewing on for a while, Moniker. Thank you for your response. In my circles you hear of children tearing out the page divider in the Bible that says “New Testament” on it between the two testaments. Ha.

  92. Kelly, JJ — Praise God for His revealing His love and goodness to you. May the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ continue to heal your hearts and give you comfort and strength.

    Dee, Deb — You’re helping to set captives free and furthering God’s kingdom. Thank you for your faithfulness in serving the Lord. You’re a blessing to so many people!

  93. Faith

    I am actually going to go over tomorrow and see if I can interview some people and take some pictures. It would be my first “woman on the street” thing.

  94. Dee – there were web sites (and other businesses) actually selling t-shirts back in 2008-09 that said “I’m praying for Pres. Obama… [Biblical citation for imprecatory prayer].”

    I was very worried about potential assassins at that time…

  95. Jan

    I cannot imagine losing two children. I am sitting here trying to imagine the pain. And then not to know for sure if they are in heaven  since one always fears that they are not one of the elect.! I am so sorry but I am so glad that you now know the truth.  Someday you will see them again and that is the hope we have in Jesus.Some days, when I hear stories like yours, I have this urge to go find me a Calvinista and slap em upside the head. Do you think they would sue me?

    I look forward to hearing the whole story. Just know that I am praying for you.

  96. Laura,

    You talked about non-Christian entertainment. I’ve known a few Christians who are completely opposed to watching/reading/listening to anything non-Christian. I’ve always found that strange. For one, I’ve long thought that the author who seems to best understand and articulate the nature of humanity is Albert Camus, an agnostic absurdist philosopher. Second, I love my music far far too much. I once went through my cd’s out of interest to see how many I’d get to keep if I decided to get rid of anything by a non-Christian artist – I think the total was about eight out of 300-odd. Finally, I just don’t think it’s wise for Christians to completely shut themselves off from the rest of the world. Everyone can decide for themselves where exactly they draw the line, but complete non-engagement with anything outside your own bubble just doesn’t seem wise to me.

  97. Jenny

    This blog is made up of all the people who come here and share their lives. You are as important as anyone else in forming this body.

  98. Numo

    Anyone who bought or sold such a T-shirt should be ashamed of themselves. They deserve to be investigated. That makes me sick.

  99. Pam

    I became a Christian during an episode of Star Trek. i wonder how that jives with their theology.


  100. They deserve to be investigated. That makes me sick.

    I feel the same, Dee.

    Maybe I can rustle up some links for you…

  101. I am not eating at that place tomorrow. But I am also not ‘not eating’ at that place tomorrow. Admittedly I am a bit of a contrarian, but I am weary of various righteous individuals informing me about my moral obligation to participate or not participate in commerce with certain businesses. This is an unsustainable line of thinking, but mostly I just get tired of the “busybody in other person’s matters” aspect of these campaigns.

  102. Dee, thank you for your prayers, and your compassion.

    You made me laugh, talking about smacking a Calvinista upside the head! Sadly I don’t think it would go over well for you since most that I know are verrry into concealed carrying and you just never know how serious they are about using their weapons if they’re caught by surprise. So I guess it could turn out worse than being sued. 🙁 But I have known a rare few that I truly would like to smack too, though most Calvinists I’ve known personally really are good, kind people. I’d settle for the opportunity to get them to listen to me for just 15 minutes as I tell them what God’s really about and what He’s done for me, though… just much too shy and unable to speak my mind for such stuff.

  103. @ Stormy and in general:

    Yes, there certainly is a double standard. But as others here have pointed out – and I’m not saying you did this in your comment – we must be careful that we do not slip into our own double standard (painting homosexuality as the worst sin ever while letting others fly under the radar). We must also be very careful to distinguish between homosexuality and homosexual acts, and to back up our words about showing the love of Christ by actually showing love to the real live gay people we meet.

    For instance, the word “homophobe” usually gets tossed around a lot when this topic comes up. Now I agree with you that the word is grossly overused. But I recently realized that I actually do know several Christians who fit the dictionary definition (“-phobia,” morbid/irrational fear of something; “homo-,” homosexuals). They are AFRAID of gay people. One of these ladies was the membership coordinator for our homeschool group growing up, and when she would get calls from couples with “unisex” names (Pat and Robin, etc.), she was afraid to pick up the phone because it might be a gay couple. This is classic phobic behavior, just like how someone with a phobia of germs refuses to clean up vomit or touch used Kleenexes.

    Nor was this woman the only one. I know so many Christian homeschoolers who literally walk around in morbid fear that “kamikaze” homosexuals are going to infiltrate their churches, homeschool groups, etc. and plant wicked ideas in the minds of their good Christian children. Of course, the common denominator is that none of these people have ever talked to a gay person, because as soon as they figured out they were gay, they headed for the hills as fast as they could.

  104. @ Dee:

    Well, his alfredo sauce and cinnamon roll pancakes are to die for. There’s lots of good food in CT if you’re ever up this way. ; )

  105. I will eat at chick-fil-a because I like their food, and I am glad the owner was willing to make a solid statement in support of traditional marriage. I am not hostile to gay people, but marriage is between a man and a women and it exists to protect the natural and fundamental unit by which our societies and our species reproduces itself.

    When men and women marry, the most likely outcome given it following its natural course is a child or children. It is critical to that child’s welfare that society make it as easy as is possible for those parents and that family to survive and prosper until the child is grown. The number one factor influencing a child growing up in poverty is divorce and a single parent home. Children need both role models, and they need the stability afforded by a good marriage and family life. And while there is no way to guarantee this, we must as a society do what we can to facilitate it to the limits of law and culture.

    A gay union cannot produce a child. Period. This makes heterosexual union distinct from gay union on first principles. They can not be equated, they are not the same.

    We do not need to be mean about it, we can as a society provide a means to support gay unions in a secular society and enable certain kinds of legal benefits afforded to heterosexual couple or commitment, but a gay union is not the same as a heterosexual marriage. They can never be the same. And it is not in our best long term interests to pretend they are the same.


  106. Jan said:

    “Been agonizing for three hours now over whether or not to post that.”

    “…just much too shy and unable to speak my mind for such stuff.”

    Jan, I am very grateful that you share your thoughts with us! We are privileged and so blessed to “hear” you – thank you!

  107. Thank you MM. It feels so wonderful to have a place where I can read the thoughts of so many different people, and to be able to write out my thoughts and have feedback, without fear of being berated. I don’t have that at church. I am absolutely savoring it.

  108. I went to Chick-Fil-A this morning, but not because of any “Support Chick-Fil-A Day”. I went because it’s my wedding anniversary and I wanted to have breakfast with my honey! (Though, if you think about it, I suppose that was my own statement on marriage. 25 years and counting!)

  109. That Bad Dog

    You sound like me. This one is a Catch 22. First, certain groups said not to eat at Chick-fil-A That was when I determined to get dinner for my family one night. Then another group said to eat at CFA/. What is a contrarian to do?  So, I am going to visit two CFAs and try to get people to tell me why they are or are not eatng there and get some pictures. 

    Bottom line: I wish all sides of the traditional marriage issues would argue it and leave their business lives out of it. But, they won’t.

  110. Dee – I absolutely would love to write a post. However, I do need to say that it might have to wait a while – homeschooling mom of 5 kids aged 9 and under, AND we school during the summer because it is just so ridiculously hot here that we can’t do anything else.

    HUG – well, we ARE going to eat CFA tomorrow, but not because we want to make a statement, but because I want a night off from cooking dinner and CFA is the easiest for my husband to pick up on the way home! Oh, and he is going through the drive through, so it doesn’t count, right? 😉

    Jenny – I’m on the beginning of what I suspect will be a very long journey of shedding presuppositions and learning to read the Bible without the baggage of Reformed “commentaries.”

  111. Tikatu

    Congratulations. My children are the rare adults these days whose parents are still married to each other 33 plus years later. Keep up the good work, which a good marriage requires, and blesses.

  112. Yes, Tikatu–Happy 25 years and counting. We are at 32 years here!
    Congrats on Arce’s 33 plus years as well! 🙂

  113. We don’t have a CFA in our town. The first time I had one was in the Atlanta airport 2 years ago flying home from our son’s national wrestling tourney. It was good…but not earth shattering. I am not a chicken fan.

    Give me a Culvers butterburger any day. 🙂 Their onion rings are the best.

  114. Hester, I agree with what you wrote. I’m a lot closer to this situation than you know. Also, I know how “church people” can be. It doesn’t matter what sin it is, a lot of “church people” act like their above it all. I also understand how a lot of homeschoolers can be.

  115. “What ticks me off is the double standard. If you aren’t in agreement with homosexuality and gay marriage, then you are a hater and homophobic. Basically,you have no right to believe how you want….” -Stormy

    Respectfully, I don’t fully agree. Sure, there are those who believe you’re homophobic if your beliefs don’t line up with theirs. But the vast majority of what I read and hear is that it’s OK to disagree. We can each have our own beliefs and convictions. What is troubling to the LGBT community and those who support them is not a difference of opinion or conviction. It’s the marginalizing, the attempts at taking away basic rights, the teasing and bullying, and the constant “stand” many Christians make against them.

    I’m a heterosexual married mother of four. I grew up in the rural South in the Bible Belt in an extremely conservative culture. It is amazing the number of friends on my facebook – EVERY single one of them evangelical and political conservatives – who are posting one link after another about going to Chick-fil-A today. One friend and her family are going on a road trip and hitting FIVE Chick-fil-A restaurants today. Throughout most of my life, I would have gone along with this show of “support” for the founder and principles of Chick-fil-A. I can’t say I would have actually joined them at Chick-fil-A today, but I would have been sympathetic to their cause.

    Now, it actually makes me a little nauseaus. I don’t plan to boycott the restaurant, but I won’t go and sit with folks in a display of disdain for homosexuals and/or their lifestyle and support of Dan Cathy who said, “I think we are inviting God’s judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say we know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage.” It’s fine that he said it in the name of free speech, although I think it has alienated people. And the company can donate to whatever organizations they want. I don’t have a problem with any of that.

    The problem I have with all of this is that it isn’t the way to LOVE. Jesus made it perfectly clear that LOVE trumps all.

  116. For instance, the word “homophobe” usually gets tossed around a lot when this topic comes up. Now I agree with you that the word is grossly overused. — Hester

    “I’m not a ‘homophobe’, I’m a homopath. I’m not afraid of queers, I just hate them.” — Overheard in Tuscon years ago; guy saying it was well-known for outrageous one-liners

    But I recently realized that I actually do know several Christians who fit the dictionary definition (“-phobia,” morbid/irrational fear of something; “homo-,” homosexuals). They are AFRAID of gay people. One of these ladies was the membership coordinator for our homeschool group growing up, and when she would get calls from couples with “unisex” names (Pat and Robin, etc.), she was afraid to pick up the phone because it might be a gay couple. — Hester

    Either that or she’d watched far too much Saturday Night Live during the “That’s Pat” period…

    I know so many Christian homeschoolers who literally walk around in morbid fear that “kamikaze” homosexuals are going to infiltrate their churches, homeschool groups, etc. and plant wicked ideas in the minds of their good Christian children. — Hester

    “Think of The Children, The Children, The Children, We Have To Protect The Children, The Children, The Children…” — call of the Kyle’s Mom

    Because homosexuality is contaigous, you know.

    Of course, the common denominator is that none of these people have ever talked to a gay person, because as soon as they figured out they were gay, they headed for the hills as fast as they could. — Hester

    Depends on which “gay person (TM)” they talk to. There ARE those out there who could have stepped out of a Fred Phelps “sermon”. The first one I encountered was a former friend who had a bad mid-life crisis at 30 and outed himself immediately afterwards. Guy was a sexual predator as well; tried to hit on me (didn’t work, at which point he played the HOMOPHOBIA! card off the bottom of the deck). At least when I had my mid-life crisis (at 50, not 30), I just bought a sports car and started watching My Little Pony instead of going after anything that couldn’t run faster than me. Too much weirdness…

  117. @ HUG:

    “I’m not a homophobe, I’m a homopath. I’m not afraid of queers, I just hate them.”


  118. “It is amazing the number of friends on my facebook – EVERY single one of them evangelical and political conservatives – who are posting one link after another about going to Chick-fil-A today. One friend and her family are going on a road trip and hitting FIVE Chick-fil-A restaurants today.”

    Yes – to protest gay marriage, we will drive around the state and engage in gluttony. One of these sins is not like the other.

    The people on my FB are doing similar things. One of them was bemoaning the fact that her daughter worked at the “wrong” CFA because Sarah Palin ate at the one just a few miles away. Because remember – women pastors are a sin. Women governors, are just fine.

  119. @ HUG:

    “Either that or she’d watched far too much Saturday Night Live during the “That’s Pat” period.”

    I’m pretty SNL was not on this woman’s approved program list. Heck, she told me once that their children would not be allowed to see Cats because it was “too sensual.” Apparently T.S. Eliot and leotards have now been blacklisted.

  120. “Cats because it was “too sensual.”

    Costumes in cats and Avatar were definitely form fitting.

  121. It is important to note that the LBGT community is not attempting to impose on anyone a definition of marriage nor asking anyone else to accept them once married, whereas that is exactly what the constitutional amendments being passed in the states do. What the LBGT community want is equality of rights, including the right to be married under the secular laws of the country and states, because that is the key to over 1,000 other rights granted to heterosexual couples, including those living together without a Christian ceremony, or, in most states, a marriage license. No church would be required to recognize a same sex marriage, perform one, etc., but the rights under civil law would apply these couples.

  122. I am not so interested in boycotts of any kind, either from the right or from the left. Boycotts, I think, in a sense, adds more to the contention already existing in a contentious and litigious society like ours.

    In terms of Christian witness, I think only when the quality of my life baffles others am I likely to get their attention. It must become obvious to them that the kind of life I am living is not only commendable but beyond human expectation; i.e, it’s the consequence of God’s capacity to reproduce His life in me and through me. In other words, people meet Jesus through me, however little people may understand this.

    Anybody agrees with me?

  123. Wendy, Yes, agree to disagree. From what I’ve seen and delt with(personaly), the vast majority do not think you have a right to believe it is wrong. Whether it is a gay person believing this or a person who isn’t gay. They are hostile to other peoples beliefs that are against gay marriage and homosexuality. I’ve had this hostility directed at me personaly(more than once) and have seen it in the media many times. Christ’s words are offensive to those in opposition. But so are “Christians” who think their above everybody in the sin department. A real Christian can be loving and kind but that’s not going to change the hostility directed towards those who disagree.

  124. I wanted to re-word my last sentence. A real Christian can be loving and kind but that’s not going to change the hostility directed towards those who disagree, unless one is seeking to come out of living that kind of life.

  125. Enjoyed my CfA this morning with my son – had a nice Mom/Son morning out. The place was packed out, but nobody was fussing, yelling, rioting, screaming, or demanding. In fact, everyone was friendly, smiling and kind. It was refreshing.

  126. Long time lurker here…Love the website and the ministry you provide. Finally felt the urge to post. Hope it won’t be my last.

    I love Chick-fil-A myself, and work there in fact, but hold no animosity toward anyone who feels otherwise.

    I also have a Ph.D. in Sociology from a university not to far from where one of the founders of this blog are located and spent a lot of time studying issues of sex, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

    With all the brouhaha going on a couple of thoughts came to mind about our understanding, as Christians, of sex, gender, sexual orientation, etc.:

    How should the church handle the fact that the human population does not cleanly divide by biological sex into M/F only, as the seminal creation story in Genesis indicates?

    According to any number of sources, there is quite a lot of human diversity at the genetic level that differs from the strict M/F dichotomy. See this from the World Health Organization (http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html) as an example. This issue is prevalent enough that it is causing problems even for the Olympics, where the separation of competitors by sex is sometimes difficult to achieve when some participants are clearly neither (or both).

    If this is so, what instruction is there about how to behave prudently sexually, when one is neither clearly M or F, since the Biblical instructions on sex presume a M/F dichotomy and that sexual attraction is only correctly oriented at the opposite sex?

    God clearly allows, and thus intends, for there to be people who do not fit the Biblical mold. To what end? Do they sin by simply having sex at all?

    I point this out in part to illustrate that sex, gender, and sexual orientation do not, even at the biological level, neatly sort out into the categories our beloved Bible assumes. We can approach that contradiction with hubris and self-righteousness, passing judgement on those who are different because, after all, God cannot be wrong. Or we can approach it with humility and an a sense of our own limitedness, and recognize that while God isn’t wrong, our understanding of the God-self just might be.

    How much of what we read in the Bible about sex/gender/sexual mores is transcendent and how much of it is contextual (specific to a time and place) and how much of it simply reflects the limited understanding that humanity had (still has) of God?

    Lots of questions, but not much in terms of answers for myself.

    Double J

  127. *snip*
    Well, who could have seen this coming? Brenda Honeycutt was an employee at the Duluth, Georgia, Chick-Fil-A, when, according to the complaint, her supervisor, Jeff Howard, fired her so she could be a “stay home” mother. Honeycutt was promoted to General Manager by the previous management and performed her duties in a satisfactory or above satisfactory manner, according to the complaint filed in the United States District Court, Northern District of Georgia, Atlanta Division.

    Dan Cathy, president and CEO of Chick-fil-A, recently said he operates his organization “on biblical principles.”

    Stay-at-home mothering is a biblical principle….

    The complaint claims that during Honeycutt’s employment, Howard “routinely made comments to the Plaintiff suggesting that as a mother she should stay home with her children.”


  128. While CFA owns the real estate and buildings each location is run by an independent operator. And these operators seem to have a lot of leeway. My daughter worked at one where two of the managers were openly gay.

  129. Good link numo – enjoyed reading the argument and how commenters responded. I assumed the Frank was the Frank Turk of Pyromaniacs chap…

  130. Double J,

    Welcome to TWW. We are quite an eclectic bunch here, due in large part to the policy of tolerance for all points of view instituted by our blog queens Dee & Deb. For example, I am a resident liberal humanist here who also happens to believe in Jesus’ virgin birth, his bodily resurrection from the dead, and his bodily return to earth one day. As you can see, not all liberals believe the same things, and I would suspect, neither do conservatives.

    Yours is a great comment by the way. Unfortunately, many evangelicals have no desire to examine the facts and come to their own conclusions. They want black or white, yes or no, zero or one answers, and sadly there is a plethora of pastors and Bible teachers who will gladly accommodate them.

  131. So many mixed feelings on all of this.

    For one,

    I ultimately agree with the truth that Dan Cathy was referring to when it comes to Biblical Marriage.

    As far as his statement:

    ““I think we are inviting God’s judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say ‘we know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage’ and I pray God’s mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define what marriage is about”

    I would agree here as well, but with a slight twist. I think many things, not just re-defining God’s purpose of marriage between a man and a woman, could lead our nation to judgment.

    Things like Greed,Pornography, Lack of integrity, Failure to care for the least of these, Apathy towards God,Violence and Murder, etc, etc, etc,…

    All of the latter, plus many more things, could bring Judgment to our nation, as well as other nations.

    Judgment is coming, no doubt, but Praise Him for being longsuffering with us.

    It is always funny to me how American Christians lean towards “some” truths, but virtually ignore others. Standing against Homosexuality/Gay&Lesbian Marriage and Abortion all seem to be on the radar.

    And according to Scripture, we should stand for God’s definition of marriage and against the murder of the unborn, but as we stand we love those we are standing against. (I think all too often the latter fails to take place)…

    But what about other truths?

    Jesus makes it pretty darn clear that we need to be concerned with the least of these…..That is a truth Jesus makes VERY clear.

    Widows, Orphans, Those who are Hungry, Oppressed/Persecuted, Those who are Sick…

    Now, I know many going to Chick Fil A today support the latter, and probablly follow the heart of Jesus in many ways…I just can’t help but wonder if all those lined up today to grab some chicken are concerned with the least of these. All too often, we stand with some truths, but ignore others.

    Someone posted on twitter that Orphans should change their names to Chick-Fil-A….and then maybe American Christians would be convicted to support them or love them…The same could be said for all the least of these.

    The Bible has many TRUTHS that we need to stand for, alongside the Biblical Definition of Marriage between a Man and a Woman.

  132. @ Lynn:

    Of course the costumes were form-fitting. But at least for Cats, they have to be to perform that type of dance. It’s not a sexual thing, it’s a functional thing. I still haven’t seen Avatar (yes I know that makes me a cultural dinosaur) so I can’t speak to that.

  133. It’s not a sexual thing, it’s a functional thing.

    I wasn’t arguing that it was sexual, just that they are form fitting. But there are a non trivial number of people who feel such costumes reveal too much. And there are some that get a thrill from seeing people wearing such.

  134. Double J

    Sometime in the next couple of weeks, I plan to do a series on homosexuality which will ask all sorts of difficult question, including looking at those born with genitalia of both sexes and those born with confusing genetics. We need to begin to deal with these issues along with the dealing with the Bible.

    By the time I am finished, I will probably miff off just about everybody, including myself.  As my husband says, when the fallen world occurred, it affected us down to our very genes. That is why my daughter struggled with a malignant brain tumor and that is why my friend was forced to choose the sex of her baby who was born with both male and female organs and why there were problems with that choice.

    It is often in the exceptions that we more clearly see the issues. 

  135. Yes we do need to look at these issues because a whole lot of issues as homosexuality are coming down the pike- polygamy (law in Ca trying to pass 2 + mommies or daddies); beastiality (new Wrigley commercial of Skittles insinuating it); incest, etc.
    Pandora’s box opens- this is what is coming. Once you open it everyone wants rights.

  136. @ “An Attorney” from your post of 1:12.

    I could not disagree with you any more vehemently. The curtain has been pulled away and I think we can all clearly see now that the GLBT agenda won’t rest until all fully embrace and affirm their views. I think my belief on this issue is backed up by the fact that clearly, the GLBT crowd is not interested in tolerance, as they claimed for years. Rather, They have sought to silence all dissenting voices, as the fine mayor of Chicago clearly demonstrated.

  137. I’ve taken to looking at the “other posts” on Chick-fil-A’s Facebook wall. The worship of this private corporation that is metaphorically socking it to GLBT persons is pretty sickening. Today, I was amazed at the people who posted on the Chick-fil-A wall that they waited 45 minutes and two hours to get a sandwich. *shakes head* It’s a *chicken sandwich*. Did Jesus tell his followers to “take thyselves down to this privately-owned restaurant chain and spend thy shekels on chicken sandwiches, so as to strike a blow against the evil homosexuals running rampant in the land”? Uh no. He didn’t. He did tell his followers to feed the hungry, clothe the naked and visit the sick and imprisoned. (Matthew 25:35-36) Could at least some of his followers find the time to spend 45 minutes or two hours doing good “to the least of these”? (Matthew 25:40)

    I wouldn’t be so hot about this myself, but the groups that Chick-fil-A the corporation has given money to (I have no idea where Truett and Dan Cathy are donating their personal funds) have spent it on (for example) lobbying Congress NOT to vote disapproval on Uganda’s attempt to outlaw homosexuality (not just homosexual sex). This is in addition to the ongoing efforts to deny gay and lesbian persons the right to marry.

    I know a lot of people here are going to disagree with me, but I’m old enough to remember when mixed race marriages were illegal. I know that during the times of slavery, slaves weren’t allowed to have legal marriages because they were property, and not full human beings. Who am I to deny the same rights I am granted as a straight woman to my GLBT family, friends, neighbors and coworkers?

    So no, not eating at Chick-fil-A, not today, not tomorrow and not until they decide GLBT people are human too. I also won’t go to Disney* because I don’t believe in the corporatization of fun. Give me a museum or just a good book.

  138. Southwestern Discomfort
    I told mean to be a little forward here but are you not making assumptions of people worshiping a corporation? I supported CFA because of the government wanting to take the right of speech away from ordinary citizens such as Cathy- he is an American citizen. I supported his right to build a business anywhere in the US that employs thousands of people who need a job right now. We slam corporations but do not realize that corporations are made up of people who have jobs in a company. Once a corporation dies people who are American citizens in that company don’t have a job. We tend to look at corporations as these “one entity” organisms who are filthy rich and sucking on the poor like parasites. This is further from the truth these are families who work.

    Another thing that you have assumed, that anyone who is against homosexual marriage hates gay people- that is also not true. Just as it is true that not all homosexuals hate Christians who do not agree with them. I love the homosexual, but just as I do not agree with divorce because it destroys families and we see that by our society today. I believe that we see that marriage between a man and a woman has been here from the beginning of time and has been the structure of societies and cultures. We also see this by looking at creation, such as animals and plants- each have female and male distinctions. I guarantee you that as I have said above you will see that pandoras box has opened and now everyone who feels that they have a right to a “relationship” of some sort or another and will demand those rights.

  139. I just was at one Chick Fill A restauraunt in MD near Wash DC. I wanted to eat there but the line was out the door with an extended line inside (longer than usual to apparently get the people inside the cooler restauraunt). I had to eat somewhere else in the same shopping centerr. When I came out the line was even longer.

    If this is any example the “boycott” might have been the best thing for Chick Fil A. With there being less Chick Fil A’s in this area than say down more in the south like GA and NC I am sure it was easier to “mob” the restaurants here but quite the reverse of the “boycott’s” intention.

    It will be interesting to see if the media reports on what actually happens. I doubt they will.

  140. Be careful about making claims and assumptions on those whom you disagree lest you fall into the same trap as the people on this blog that Dee and Deb write about everyday, such as the Calvinistas.

  141. all this talk about worshipping the corporations and such makes me laugh cause it’s just one more ASSumption in the works.

    I’m one of the most non-commercial people you’ll find. I don’t shop. I cook 3 meals a day almost every day of my life. Rarely eat out. Rarely buy anything “new” when I can make it myself, barter or trade.

    But I *DID* go to Chick fil A today and it was because I stand up for FREE SPEECH. And yes, let’s couple that with the fact I’m a traditionalist that believes marriage is a man and a woman only. BUT — honestly, it was more about the free speech than anything else. That, and to reward a man for not pandering back at the MSM with political correctness, faked “apologies” or flip-flopped opinions.

    I probably won’t eat at CfA again for a long while, but that’s because I’m on a strict budget and I’m just not one to eat out very often. But, truth be told…if given the choice between CfA and McDonalds or another fast food joint, I’m gonna support CfA for being bold.

    So please stop with the worship the corporation crap. The same could be said about all of us sitting around on our macbooks and dell laptops at home!

  142. Seeker, I think you’ve thrown some real straw men out there. I’ve yet to be in a church that doesn’t have some sort of food pantry. I dare say there’s never been a society like ours, in the history of the world, that offers more resources to the poor than ours does. The point is, there are numerous voices for the poor in our society, secular and Christian. But, especially on the secular side, there aren’t so many voices for the unborn who are murdered. I think that’s why Christians are drawn to that issue. Plus, and there’s really no way around this, abortion is THE defining moreal tragedy of our day. I fear that we just tend to see it as another political issue, as opposed to what it really is.
    One final point. I think it’s worth noting that the reason I’m in such support of CFA today has little to do with gay marriage, and it has much to do with the right to have a dissenting opinion. The most frustrating thing to me in this whole issue has been to observe those who wish to silence all dissenting voices.

  143. Double J

    Your comment about those who don’t fit neatly into the male/female dichotomy and your mentioning the Olympics immediately made me think of South African runner Caster Semenya and the really horrible talk that went around after her 2009 world championships win: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

  144. Faith, no, I don’t think I’m making an assumption.

    I posted a similar sentiment to what I said above, on Chick-fil-A’s wall, about how time spent in line at Chick-fil-A could have been better spent doing what Jesus said to do in Matthew 25, and got this response:

    XXXXXXXX XXXX “I am pretty sure people still need to eat – so the fact that people took the time to eat at this place to make a point is outstanding. I am sure the angels in Heaven are rejoicing. The United States needs a revival so it’s time to stop working against God’s plan and move forward with your life.”

    My response was: “The angels in heaven are rejoicing because people ate chicken sandwiches at Chick-fil-A? Do you people read what you write? I mean, seriously, I can’t believe people write this about God and heaven.”

    All I can think of right now is the Picard double facepalm.

  145. There is only one Chick-fil-a in Michigan on the other side of the state so this was a non-issue for me today. I’ve never eaten at one, but I admire the man for being closed on Sunday the same way I admire the man who owns Hobby Lobby and makes the same choice.

    I think people in general make a mistake when they see this as a GLBT issue or even a free speech issue. I know it is both of those, but it goes waaaay beyond that. This also isn’t about a chicken sandwich or a corporation.

    This is about a huge segment of the population that feels powerless to stop what they see as the destruction of their country. Whether you agree with their view or not, that is what we are seeing today. People who believe with every fiber of their being that the country they love and appreciate is hanging over a precipice morally, financially, and relationally. Do some of them confuse love of Jesus and love of country? Of course. But people know how fortunate they are to live in this country and they hate what they see happening.

    And so if they can demonstrate in some small way their anger, frustration, fear, and love of country by buying a chicken sandwich… that is what they will do. It helps them feel like they do still have a voice in a country where the leadership on both sides of the aisle has done a remarkable job of completely ignoring the wishes of the people they are supposed to represent.

  146. Southwestern Discomfort

    That is one person with an opinion, who has a right to that opinion. JUST as the right for a homosexual to state his opinion. This is what makes this country free- BUT for the GOVERNMENT (who we should worry about more than a corporation) to restrict someones comments or decide that one can not open a business is downright scary. So what if people go to CFA for whatever reason? Are you now claiming you know all these peoples hearts and intentions for going? You only read a few silly comments. I don’t agree with what was said on the comment that person posted, but that was not my intention for going to CFA. Like I said you cannot assume because would Jesus assume? You are now making judgments about people that may not be true.

  147. I am not trying to come down hard Southwestern- but when I come on here and see some of the comments from WHAT I see here (not to assume)there are as equally disparging things said about my fellow sisters and brothers in Christ. I may not agree with alot of things but I love them even when they may be wrong in how they say things. I use to be so angry at the church and the leaders but I have also realized that many of us just have to mature and grow in the Lord. Yes some are ignorant of how to act towards those in the world, but we have to encourage not slam them down.

  148. Faith, you mention a few times about corporations having employees and the need to remember them in this discussion. I think it’s important to remember also that the government are people. Both corporations and governments are entities made up of individuals, and it’s important that we don’t say that about one while forgetting the other.
    I used to work in a government job, I know many people who do so now. It can be just as frustrating to hear their occupation reduced to a (scary and oppressive) ‘thing’ as you rightly point out about corporations and their employees.

  149. Dee-

    I would add that the bus Boycott in Alabama and Ghandi’s boycott of British salt were effective means of bringing societal change.

    I think this boycott has already hurt Chick-fil-a. I don’t really have a strong opinion about the boycott, but I do find Dan Cathy to be very out of touch with his own customers and employees who are Gay.

    For what it’s worth….

  150. Alan @7:35 PM

    I am afraid I disagree with you on some, not all things.

    You said,

    “Seeker, I think you’ve thrown some real straw men out there. I’ve yet to be in a church that doesn’t have some sort of food pantry. I dare say there’s never been a society like ours, in the history of the world, that offers more resources to the poor than ours does.”

    In reference to my post earlier, I said that I don’t doubt many of those lined up at Chick-Fil-a today support the poor or what Jesus said in Matthew 25…and I don’t doubt many churches will have a food pantry or ministry to the “least of these”…

    But the question remains, do Christians in America support the “truth” of caring for the least of these AS MUCH AS they support the “truth” of Biblical Marriage or Abortion?

    I am not so sure. I have never seen my Facebook wall explode with cries for the least of these as much as I have seen cries to defend Dan Cathy and Marriage today. Never.

    And when it comes to “standing up” for things…I all too often hear how we need to stand up for Biblical Marriage or the end to abortion (and no doubt we do), but I hardly ever hear those who are willing to stand up for the least of these—(which includes more than just those who are poor…those who are persecuted, sick, hungry, orphans, widows…etc).

    I am glad to hear that every church you have been too has a food pantry of some sort…In my area, very few have anything of the sort. Many churches in my area are profit making machines and contribute little to no money to support the least of these, missions etc…I have seen it all too often, but the sad truth is, many of these churches would be FIRST in line to support Chick-Fil-a and support the end to abortion.

    The latter is good for those churches to do so, but what about the other truths? Why build hundreds of thousands of dollars for it to sit in the bank, while barely making an effort to consider the least of these?

    Perhaps it depends on the context, but my context tells me that some American Christians are drawn to some truths but ignore others.

    Let me be clear:

    I support Dan Cathy and his right to speak his beliefs.

    I love Chick-Fil-A (not just because of Dan Cathy’s beliefs)..

    I also hope for the day when the murder of unborn babies will cease (In my opinion, they are a perfect example of the “least of these”)…

    I also believe the Biblical understanding of marriage is between a man and a woman…However, I think if another person chooses another path, then it is my responsibility to love them and tell them what I would tell anyone–Jesus loves them extravagantly!

    I also want to stand by and support the least of these–whoever they are.

    I was able to work with the Homeless in Ft. Worth, Texas a year ago, and I can tell you, it is heartbreaking to see their plight. Some faithful Christians had a ministry in place to support them, but you could tell, the resources were limited in their support for them.

    One can’t help but wonder what would happen if ministries such as that could recieve the kind of attention that Chick-Fil-A recieved today.

  151. Pam you are exactly right about that! 🙂
    I should have clarified about leaders in the government who act like elitists themselves as others claim corporations are. I get pretty frustrated because the leaders in this country are elected to be servants to the people of this country not to be corporations themselves. Our Founding Fathers always stated they were servants to this country. We pay for the salaries of these servants with our taxes.

  152. Sallie or others,

    “This is about a huge segment of the population that feels powerless to stop what they see as the destruction of their country….And so if they can demonstrate in some small way their anger, frustration, fear, and love of country by buying a chicken sandwich… that is what they will do. It helps them feel like they do still have a voice….”

    Can you elaborate on this? How is buying a chicken sandwich from Chick-fil-A giving a voice to those who feel our country is being destroyed? Being destroyed by what specifically? I am asking your thoughts on this in earnest.

  153. As I drove to pick up my daughters from sewing camp this afternoon, traffic was backed up for miles. I assumed there had been a traffic accident, but it was Chick-fil-A traffic! Later this evening, I had to go to the grocery store which happens to be near Chick-fil-A and there was still a line out the door.

    It made me really sad. In fact, I cried tonight over this. Regardless of our beliefs about homosexuality or free speech, the world doesn’t need MORE alienation of homosexuals by Christians. There is plenty already. I honestly don’t believe Jesus would have stood in line for 2 1/2 hours to order a chicken sandwich. I think He would have dined with gays and lesbians today.

  154. Sallie,


    There is another aspect to this. Chic fil A was targeted because of their beliefs. Why not just ignore Chic fil A? To target them is a form of censorship. It is happening to other businesses in other ways. The GLBT community targets companies that refuse to sponsor some of their parades or events. They get huge sponsorships. A friend of mine’s brother in law owns a car dealership in a large southern city. His car “brand” sponsors gay events but he refused to do so in his city. He simply said no, was nice about it. They targeted his business as “anti gay” which he isn’t. He is not even a believer. I was shocked to find out this sort of thing goes on a lot.

  155. Wendy,

    Take your pick of issues… Whether it is encroachment on free speech, the right to bear arms, health care, lack of jobs, lack of common decency, destruction of our country’s financial health, lawlessness and total lack of accountaiblity among financial leaders, lawlessness and lack of accountability among government leaders on every level… The list could go on and on.

    Again, I don’t think deep down inside this a Chick-fil-a and GLBT issue for many people. It goes beyond that. This is simply an incident that gave many people the opportunity to act on their frustrations, fears, etc. in a way that did not make them feel especially vulnerable to attack or repercussions.

    Tangentially related…

    I think people in general are tired of being chastised, harassed, and made to feel guilty if they don’t embrace every cause that comes along. Whether it is GLBT, the homeless, eating ethically, human trafficking, the plight of workers in China, South Sudan, illegal immigrants with American children, racial reconciliation, or any of dozens more I could list if I took the time, people are tired of being told they have to care about every tragic story we are exposed to from virtually around the world.

    Does the Bible teach Christians to care about the poor and oppressed? Yes. Does that mean that as individual Christians we are supposed to care about every tragic story that we encounter? No. It simply isn’t possible. We are constantly bombarded on every side by these issues and told we are terrible people if we don’t act on behalf of the people who are suffering. I personally think this is one of the terrible consequences of the excessive media access we have. We are simply overloaded and overwhelmed by negative information from literally every corner of the earth. I don’t even think we have begun to realize how detrimental all of this is to us.

    I may be wrong, but I think people are just tired of it. They are tired of being lied to, they are tired of being told they are (insert negative epithet related to topic), etc. They are fed up. Seriously fed up. And when something like Chick-fil-a happens, it gives them an opportunity to take action in a tangible way.

    People are angry. Is it obvious on a daily basis in public? No, because most of them are too afraid to voice it publicly. They aren’t going to march in protests. But I guarantee you plenty gets said in private homes and conversations.

    If you think the Chick-fil-a lines were long, they will pale in comparison to the turnout for the upcoming election.

    My two cents as an observer of the culture around me. Your mileage may vary. 🙂

  156. @ Lynn:

    True. But this can be a difficult line to walk. If somebody has a lewd reason for watching shows with form-fitting costumes, then they should obviously not watch that kind of show. But I may watch those kind of shows for the music, dancing and (from an aesthetic standpoint) the costumes; and of course we can hardly speak to the motives of the performers, since we’re not them. So I see this much like alcohol use – dependent mostly on whether you personally have a problem in that area.

    In the case of the particular woman I was referencing, her being upset by leotards was only one piece of the puzzle. She also thought that card tricks and sleight of hand were bad because you’re not supposed to do “magic” according to the Bible, and she was very tight with some extremely legalistic people. I have actually heard Christians condemn ALL ballet/modern dance based solely on leotards and tutus, which I think is going too far. I wonder if they would change their tune if one of their daughters turned out to be a gifted dancer?

    Not that Christianity has ever had an uneasy relationship with dance or anything. : )

  157. Wendy – We were typing at the same time. 🙂

    Dollars to donuts, many of those people who were at Chick-fil-a today were not Christians. Yes, many were. But many were also small business owners, Tea Partiers, Libertarians, Conservatives, and other people who deeply resent what they see happening around them. They are tired of being pushed and they are starting to push back in small ways.

    Again, this is not all about Christians hating gays. IMHO people who focus on that are missing the big picture in this country.

  158. Sallie
    Do you know that many who posted on other sites about going to Chick-fil-A were not of the Christian faith. There were those who were agnostic who stated they did not want the infringement of speech and the abiliity of government to tell a business what they can or cannot do. This is where it crosses the line. We do not want a totalitarian government where the leaders in government dictate free markets. My mother-in-law came from Cuba in the 60’s. She knew how Castro would divide people with social issues like this and then start dictating peoples lives. There farm was taken away because it was deemed unfair for her family to have such wealth. Eventually her fathers farm was filled with many families living with her and her family. She had to leave with only $60 in her pocket and come to America. Now we have a government that is dictating what marriage is, whether God should be even mentioned; absolutely no prayer allowed in schools; abortion payed by taxpayers; our country being riddled with debt. I can see why many are upset- our country is going down the tubes. And wears upset because of homosexuals notnot getting to marry?

  159. So sorry for my errors – I am writing on my Kindle Fire and it has been acting up on me. I meant “and we are getting upset because Homosexuals cannot get married?”

    No one I know has ever treated a homosexual with hatred; every homosexual I know can get a job. They are not enslaved and far as I know many make more money then heterosexuals. Do you know the same leaders in our country that support liberal causes such as the homosexual cause also support the Muslim brotherhood?
    Look at the contradiction here- would a homosexual rather live with the Christian or with some terrorist group? Like Sallie said people see through the lies and are tired of it.

  160. Actually, the people have dictated (voted on) what marriage is. Personally, I believe that in our free country, people should have the right to marry whomever they choose. I don’t think our religious convictions about the issue should affect the rights of anyone who live in this free country. If one person has that right, every single person should have that right. This is America. I know and have worked closely with numerous gay and lesbian folks. Defining marriage and prohibiting legal homosexual unions is not going to keep gays and lesbians from their relationships. If they could marry, it would not harm my marriage, my family, my state, or our country.

    My children attend public schools. They don’t pray there. But my children love Jesus because they’re growing up in a home with parents who love Him and pray with them and teach them the bible. It would be wonderful if there was still prayer in schools, but I know plenty of folks (many of whom are close family members who prayed and listened to bible stories in public school) who grew up to be some of the most immoral people I’ve ever known.

    I am unwavering pro-life. But having worked in social work and mental health for many years, I can tell you that this is a complicated issue. We can’t get up and preach against abortion and hold picket signs at abortion clinics and counsel girls and women to keep their babies – that precious life growing inside them – and then forget about them. As Christians especially, we don’t get to do that. Raising a child is a long, hard road even in the best of circumstances. Those who hear our voices not to abort and choose to keep their child often need help – lots of it. We can’t de-fund public education and our social safety nets. Many of those babies that we saved from abortion and many of those who are the poor, marginalized, and the least of these in our society need those programs. We can’t have it both ways. And lest anyone thinks that the Church can meet those needs, please call up your local crisis pregnancy center. A Christian pregnancy center in my area was featured on the cover of Time Magazine a few years ago. I called the Director a couple of years ago to talk with her about abortion as a political hot topic. I asked her very pointed questions about the clinic’s relationship with government-funded programs such as Medicaid, Work First, and TANF. She said they absolutely couldn’t serve their clients and families without them. The center gets very generous donations from churches all over our area, but it simply isn’t enough. She told me that the pregnancy center and government agencies are in a partnership. This is what I had seen with other Christian agencies and non-profits, but I wanted her specific take on the issue.

  161. I think some of the most recent comments have helped really make clear this isn’t so much a religious disagreement as one of political ideology. But the USA (looking from outside this is how it often seems) sometimes conflates religion and politics, and that makes these debates unecessarily heated. Which is ironic, given how explicit the separation of church and state is in the US constitution, but that’s a side point. My real point is that, while our views may be (should be!) informed by our faith, that doesn’t mean they’re going to be uniform. Intellectually we probably all know that’s obvious, but in reality we often forget that, and that’s when we end up saying that if somebody doesn’t hold political position XYZ they aren’t really Christian.
    I know a number of years ago I was having a debate online with another Christian woman whose politics are pretty much diametrically opposed to mine (I’d describe myself as a raging leftist hippy). I was talking a lot about poverty, refugees, the environment, etc (i.e. typical leftie positions), she was more concerned about gun rights, prayer in schools, anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage (i.e. typical conservative issues). Because I saw the issues I cared about as more important, I was accused of not being Christian, which hurt a lot. Both of us are Christian, and our views are equally informed by and derived from our faith – but our views are different. And that should be fine.

    I think the debate here has been good – strongly held views put forward, and definite disagreement, which is fine and healthy, but I’m glad all the TWW commenters are able to communicate their positions respectfully, even when there’s so much difference in what people think. Nobody’s afraid to say their piece, but nobody’s being mean about it. Well done, everyone!

  162. Pam wrote

    I think some of the most recent comments have helped really make clear this isn’t so much a religious disagreement as one of political ideology. But the USA (looking from outside this is how it often seems) sometimes conflates religion and politics, and that makes these debates unecessarily heated. Which is ironic, given how explicit the separation of church and state is in the US constitution, but that’s a side point. My real point is that, while our views may be (should be!) informed by our faith, that doesn’t mean they’re going to be uniform. Intellectually we probably all know that’s obvious, but in reality we often forget that, and that’s when we end up saying that if somebody doesn’t hold political position XYZ they aren’t really Christian.

    YES to everything you just said! It *is* political, far more than it is anything else, excepting perhaps $$$$$. (and I’m assuming that CFA is making quite a lot, given what some commenters have observed.)

    is Dan Cathy free to state his thoughts? yes.

    But donating corporate money to organizations that … well. At any rate, that is another thing entirely,.

    fwiw, the Ugandan legislation is about making homosexuality 9the orientation, not just sexual activity) a crime punishable by death. Those who are seen as “supporting” gay people would face imprisonment if the law in question is passed in its current form. Which means that even “ex-gay” groups would be… illegal.

    Talk about contradictions!

  163. Numo and others,

    I haven’t researched the organizations to which Chick-fil-A donates. (I am familiar with Exodus International, because I had a very close friend who went through the program three times.) What exactly is the organization’s role in the Ugandan legislation and where is the activity documented? What I don’t understand is why an American “pro-family” organization is involved in anti-gay legislation in another part of the world. ??

  164. Wendy – I think the very thorough documentation at the following link will help explain how/why/who is involved in the proposed legistlation in Uganda –

    Slouching Toward Kampala: Uganda’s Deadly Embrace of Hate. some of the people who’ve helped the most in both publicizing the involvement of US Christians in promoting the proposed legislation (as well as spreading some really awful propaganda in Uganda re. gay people) are pretty “conservative” Christians. (Psychologist Warren Throckmorton is one of them.)

    There’s a *ton* of material at the link, so… it might take you a while to work through it, even if you skim!

  165. Wendy – this week a national newspaper in Uganda carried the headline “Beware: Notorious Bum-Driller on the Loose”. I kid you not.

  166. …oh, the headline was about a homosexual man who had fled from a courtroom (not sure what he was on trial for).

    HUG – My sister in law’s a homopath. She makes all these flower remedies and herbal products and stuff. Oh, wait…

  167. doubtful

    You make sense regarding the bus boycott. Had I been an adult at the time, i would have gone to the south to protest Jim Crow. 

  168. To all reader participating in the CFA debate-Thank you!

    I have been busy getting ready to leave. I will be out of pocket today and tomorrow, travelling to see Eagle. It’s about 4 1/2 hours from here so I won’t be able to participate in the great debate. I will check in tonight to update and see what’s going on.

    I am so grateful to all of you, on all sides of this issue. You are debating with passion but with respect. I wish there were more of this level of discussions on a national scale. Deb and I are blessed to know all of you. And I am being challenged by each and every statement. You are all wonderful.

  169. Wendy, respectfully the country has not voted on homosexual marriage. The judges have decided to push through homosexual marriage in many states without the consent of the people. We saw this with the CA prop 8 when the appeals court struck the ban down. Also the complaint of Cathy supporting anti-gay organizations the same can be said for those on the opposite side of the spectrum. Do you know there are those within our government today that support NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love Association)? This is an organization that works to abolish sexual age consent laws. This organization was defended by a gay rights activist Harry Hay. Also Obamas “Safe School Czar” Kevin Jennings was on record praising NAMBLA and stating that Harry Hay is one that inspired him. Even stated ” kids are being aggressively recruited to become heterosexual in this country.”rights- societies cannot not function

  170. So see many on the left side of things do support orgs. that are also called in question. We could banter back and forth on this.
    The thing is are we fundamentally changing a society to fit in everyones rights and in the end we have no society? God designed order and through His Word you can find that order- we can argue about it all you want but God designed this order from the beginning as it is what has provided for stability. We start changing the laws for homosexuals we will start changing the laws for everyone including those from NAMBLA.
    Well thank you for the discussion – has been interesting.

  171. Here’s another legal thought experiment. Many who oppose gay marriage claim freedom of religion. But those who support gay marriage also have freedom of religion, as it is part of their religious practice. So does passing a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage infringe upon a UCC pastor’s freedom of religion, as they now can’t marry people they believe should be married? (Note: I am not a supporter of gay marriage, I’m just throwing this out there for people to think about.)

    Also, I seem to recall that somewhere the idea came up that God will “judge America” for gay marriage. This is a common assertion, but here’s the problem. Statements like “God will judge America” have behind them a few hundred years of “America as new Israel” exceptionalist theology that is complete trash. The United States is NOT in some kind of special covenantal relationship with God that sets it apart from all other nations. So yes, God will judge America. But he’ll also judge Namibia, France, Mongolia, etc., and all by the same standards and for many more things than just gay marriage.

  172. Hester I do not see where many homosexuals have linked their lifestyle with religion though. If you look at the statistics most homosexuals do not claim to Christian faith?
    Lets put this out there what if a pastor decides by his religious faith that he wants to marry three women with two men or a “consenting” 12 year old with a 40 year old man? What if we have a religious leader who wants to be married to a haram of women in a commune? See we could get real crazy here.
    This is why I believe the BEST order is what God has already designed and that is a marriage between a man and woman. This is where populations grow in the first place. And I know the question will be “but what about polygamy- they populate?” Yes, population grows but it is dysfunctional and produces bitterness, jealousies, incest, ect.. My question is why change something that God so beautifully ordered to go to relationships that produce dysfunction?

  173. This is a question that I would love for someone to answer (not at all trying to be sarcastic here- I would love honest discussion)- Would Jesus condone gay marriage? I am not asking at all would Jesus love the homosexual; I am askin Would Jesus condone homosexual marriage?

  174. Well, I agree much of what you both say, Faith and Wendy.

    First, Wendy- I SO agree with your thoughts on the need for government help to prevent people from just falling through the cracks. I don’t see America as a place where the poor and sick should die in the streets, though some of my fellow Christians who totally oppose any government involvement in healthcare or welfare almost come off that way. Yes, ideally the church would handle much or all of this, but they don’t and won’t in a big enough way, I am afraid.

    The danger is in the government agencies drawing things into their programs such as an emphasis on abortion. We need to be vigilant to protect the freedom of conscience here.

    Having seen a lot of suffering in the last few years, I am convinced that many of us in this society have an overly simplistic idea of how to solve our social and economic problems through imposing a pull yourself up by the bootstraps kind of philosophy. That works for some, not for all.

    And, I don’t recall that the whole country has voted on gay marriage, though I would not vote for OR against it. I don’t see it as a threat to anyone else’s marriage. I do disagree with the use of the word “marriage”, as I think it is a redefinition of a specific term, but I am very turned off by the big uproar over this one particular lifestyle when there are a host of other sins and injustices going on all around us.

    Faith, is there evidence that the gay community would favor awful things like NAMBLA ? I see where you could wonder about the slippery slope kind of thing, but I am not convinced that the rate of pedophilia is higher among homosexuals or if this is based on assumption?

    I think we should focus on the issue of free speech here with this chick-fil-et thing. I would be similarly disturbed if a mayor was trying to shut down someone’s business because they were FOR gay rights. That is the part of things that we can control- protecting our constitutional right to free speech, no matter how unpopular our ideas are. When it comes to changing hearts on homosexuality or any other issue, only God can do that.

    Sorry to ramble, and I so appreciate your astute thinking that gives me much food for thought.

  175. As I understand it freedom of speech is enshrined in the US constitution. So NAMBLA has the right to campaign and air their revolting views. However, nobody is going to change the laws so that children no longer have *their right* to protection. This is a similar argument to the argument against gay marriage I’ve heard from many people that if gays can marry each other then people will eventually be able to marry animals or objects. The argument does not hold, though, since there is an obvious difference between two adult humans of sound mind consenting to marry each other and a man marrying a dog; just as there is an obvious difference between two consenting adult men marrying and a man marrying a child.

    Besides, this is a slippery slope argument. If we take the logic that ‘A shouldn’t happen, not because A is a bad thing itself but because A encourages B’, then it may as well be argued that nobody should get married at all; that the existence of heterosexual marriage is encouraging homosexuals to campaign for marriage rights, which will in turn lead to NAMBLA campaigning for the right to marry ever younger boys. To me this looks like an argument built on its own conclusions.

    Instead of taking this line, each case should be discussed on its own merits and drawbacks. People who argue against gay marriage ought to be able to argue that gay marriage is a bad thing in and of itself.

    Due to the biological realities of their orientation, gay couples who have children always have them intentionally. In a way this makes for more stable homes, unlike lots of heterosexual homes where the kids are often, humanly speaking, an accident.

    Personally, I’m not in favour of gay marriage, and I’m not against it. I can understand the frustration of lots of Americans over feeling like they aren’t heard; I have basically abandoned the belief that my government represents me in any way (at least you aren’t ruled by an outrageously expensive, semi-unelected, mostly foreign ideological group who make your laws in a totally different country!). It’s weird and pretty sad that it’s all come to a head over some industrial chicken place, and it looks like an indictment of the American political class – especially the fact that respected (?) public figures like Santorum and Palin are actually participating.

  176. Well Laura on the aspect of feeding the poor I agree with the government intervening with THOSE who cannot fend for themselves, such as, the elderly who have no family; the disabled; the orphans. Although, again statistically, the churches do a better job at it- for who is going over to other countries to feed the poor and preach the gospel? Who were the ones who helped in Louisiana the most when the hurricane hit? I know here in TN the people who cleaned up were not FEMA as much but were Christians, non Christians, and other people in the Music industry. Also in Joplin, Missouri it was the town who pitched in to help themselves. On the whole, people of this country will jump in and take care of things. But we do see in our country is an abuse of the system- we see those who rally need help not get it and people who could work abuse the system.

    And yes Wendy if you look up Kevin Jennings (Obamas safe school czar) and his promotion of NAMBLA you will find some disturbing things. If you look up the involvement of the UN in pedophile practices linked with homosexual orgs. you will find it?
    here is one such article:

    And you are right this is a free speech issue, but people within that free speech will voice why they do not agree with homosexual marriage.

  177. Sophie all this that I stated are happening in the governments, not with people changing their views. The homosexual marriage issue was never an issue until government got involved and made it an issue. It is quite interesting that while Rahm Immanuel in Chicago condemned CFA, he is a close friend to Farrakan. Farrakan actually has repeatedly expressed his hatred of homosexuals. So this is more of an issue with government agendas then whether we are changing our views or not.

    Are you sure homosexuals always have children intentionally? Where are the statistics on this? I agree that heterosexual marriages are in shambles, but statistically when there are marriages based on a man and woman who are in a committed relationship and functional (not dysfunctional)children and families are the most stable. We do not know what homosexual “marriages” are like because this is a new experiment- so the accurate statistics are not there. But do we want to start changing functional for dysfunctional- whether divorce, homosexuality, polygamy, etc.. to find out how it works in a society? We have already seen what divorce has done to our society- look at the statistics.
    This is why I believe that when God created the world He knew exactly what would work to create societies- one cannot deny that He created a man and woman to procreate. Now if you are not a Christian you may not believe in God, but as far as secularly we see that centuries have been this way to keep countries populated and thriving. When we mess with this order we will have dsyfunction. Look at China, they decided that girls were not needed to make their country work. Now they have no women to marry their men- this creates population disparity.
    More then looking at this as a religious issue I try to look at things with common sense and the fact that this is what God designed. First we know that homosexuals cannot procreate, so in no way can they populate a country. If you look at statistics you will find that this country is losing their population more than gaining it. You will find that most homosexuals are not trying to have children through test tube babies or surrogates (which would create more confusion for the child when they find out their one daddie is not their real daddie, but their mommie gave them up to the two daddies)- most homosexuals are in many relationships.

    What I want to know also did God/Christ condone gay relationships/gay marriage at any time in Scripture? and where is the evidence of this? Again I am not saying that Jesus did not love these people- he did but He never condoned sin. Even with the adulterous woman He said “Go and sin no more”. He loved her but never advocated for adultery.

    Sophie the other issue with NAMBLA I DO NOT agree that they have the right to voice there views- instead we should be shutting them down and investigating if there is any abuse going on behind the scenes. This is child abuse that they are advocating with children who cannot help themselves. This kind of argument would be like us saying that terrorists have the right to say they want to bomb the White House and getting away with that. Some of these pedophile org. have ties within the government- does that not bother you?

  178. Well peace out out on this discussion. I could be running my mouth on this subject forever- my mouth is an over- running faucet- 🙂
    Gotta turn it off and get back to work.
    I do love discussion and also appreciate the civility. : )

  179. Faith,

    If it is the case that we should not do anything that is not in the Bible or addressed by Jesus when he was here on earth, then you should quit commenting on blogs, using email, listening to the radio, watching TV, riding in a car, etc. That is a ridiculous standard, as any thought about the matter would show. And there was polygamy in the OT, clearly by the time of Abraham, which is not an argument to have everything that was in the Bible either. However, divorce, cheap and easy for the man, impossible for the woman, was in the Bible, but Jesus spoke against it because it was abusive.

    We need to be careful in our arguments.

    None of the homosexuals I have known have had any use for those who abuse children, and no use for NAMBLA, which is the boogey straw man of the religious right. The vast majority of child sexual abusers have no attraction to adults of the either sex, and for the second largest number the only adult to whom they are attracted are of the opposite sex and the attraction includes domination and force. They are truly very sick people that cannot have normal relationships, but manage to fake it (such as wooing a single mom to get access to her children).

    The examples you cited are from outside the United States and are unsubstantiated rumor at best.

  180. Arce,

    Exactly. Homosexuals making up a larger percentage of pedophiles is absolutely unfounded. In fact, statistics show that the majority of pedophiles are in heterosexual relationships.

    And I, for one, am quite happy that many of the examples (definitions) of marriage in the bible are not widely accepted today. Some of them are illegal. While FAR from perfect, we’ve come a long way in protecting innocent children, individuals, and families from some of the definitions of marriage in the bible.

  181. @ Lynn,

    It would appear that over at Internet Monk, moderation proceeds much like a Huey gunship in Vietnam. Hose em’ down and that’s that. Apparently Chaplain Mike’s tolerance band is not what our blog queens here at TWW subscribe to. Long live TWW!

  182. Faith, I hope the authorities keep a very watchful eye on anyone who is in NAMBLA, doing whatever’s legal to keep tabs on them. I understand the severity of child abuse and the despicable nature of NAMBLA members.

    But whether they should be banned or not depends what they do and what they say. You may know a lot more about them than me; as far as I’m aware, they advocate for abolishing the age of consent. That in itself is not an offence and is (or should be) protected speech. I don’t know enough about them to know if anything they say incites the abuse of children. If they incite people to commit the crime of child molestation NOW, while child abuse is illegal, then I think they should be charged, although I do not know if they do this.

    But what NAMBLA does or doesn’t do is beside the point, really, because they are being linked in what looks very much like a smear campaign to homosexuals in order to discredit homosexuals and make them look like depraved, dangerous sexual predators, which they are not.

    I said that homosexuals have children intentionally because a man and a man can’t have a baby, nor can a woman and a woman. Therefore if they want to have a child, they have to do it intentionally. There are no broken condom panics in lesbian households. It means that when a homosexual couple have children, they have sat down and thought about the various responsibilities involved and whether or not they can live up to them. That is not the case in many heterosexual couplings, because a lot of kids are ‘accidents’.

    I am not at all saying that we can draw any particular conclusions from that. But you put forward the view that the only model for a stable family is a heterosexual one (as opposed to homosexual ones), and you did not give any evidence. It was just food for thought to counter your assertion.

    I also have an issue with the article you linked to. It contained some unhelpful generalisations such as the idea that the US government stated that its ‘number one foreign policy concern is pushing the gay agenda’. I do not know what ‘the gay agenda’ is and believe it to be a nonsense statement generalising and demonising gays. If it’s referring to the removal of aid from countries like Uganda where gay people are treated as criminals and the scum of the earth, well then, I am very happy for them to back ‘the gay agenda’.

    Jesus didn’t, as far as I’m aware, mention homosexuals once. I know that the NT references arsenokoite but I don’t know exactly what that means, and I know that in Leviticus a man shall not lie with another man as he would a woman. But since you’re a democratic republic with a constitution rather than a theocracy, what the Bible does or doesn’t say isn’t the deciding factor in the gay marriage debate. More relevant is the consideration that perhaps the civil rights of gay people are being violated by the prohibition on them marrying.

  183. Lets put this out there what if a pastor decides by his religious faith that he wants to marry three women with two men or a “consenting” 12 year old with a 40 year old man? What if we have a religious leader who wants to be married to a haram of women in a commune? See we could get real crazy here. — Faith

    Doc Simon: “How much did the Feds pay you to betray River & Me?”
    Jayne Cobb: “That’s crazy talk.”
    Doc Simon: “Then let’s talk crazy. How much?”

    And since were talking crazy, some years ago in one of the flyover states, there was a gay marriage measure on the ballot. The “Anti” TV ads went as follows:

    Wedding. Close-up on whoever’s officiating, then a pull-back reveal:
    “I now pronounce you man and husband.”
    Two men kiss each other.
    “I now pronounce you man and wife and wife.”
    One man & two women kiss each other.
    “I now pronounce you man and wife.”
    50-year-old man kisses six-year-old girl in bridal wear.
    “I now pronounce you man and wife.”
    Man kisses horse. Horse (presumably a mare) is wearing a bridal veil.
    Voice-over: “Vote NO on Proposition Whatever. BECAUSE WE’RE NOT CALIFORNIA.”

  184. Huffington Post reports today that Chik-fil-A did a record sales yesterday. I can just imagine how propagandists on the Evangelical Right will spin it, and worse yet, how they will try and use it for even more anti-LGBT political activism.

  185. @Muff Potter It would appear that over at Internet Monk, moderation proceeds much like a Huey gunship in Vietnam. Hose em’ down and that’s that. Apparently Chaplain Mike’s tolerance band is not what our blog queens here at TWW subscribe to. Long live TWW!

    Did you read what CM said about the moderation on that post? He was very specific in what the post was about and how the comments needed to flow. The intent was to keep it from becoming a vicious discussion on the subject in general. And in general the moderation policy at IM is very similar to the policy I see here.

  186. @ Lynn & numo,

    I’m probably just miffed that all my comments over there have been rejected outright even though I feel that they’ve always been within the bounds of good taste and germane to the topic at hand. It is after all their blog and they are the sole arbiters of who gets to say what. My previous comment is strictly a matter of subjective opinion.
    ===> (smiley face goes here)

  187. @ Faith / in general:

    I don’t pretend to have the full answer to the thought experiment I posed. I think gay marriage is one of the wonkier intersections between faith, morality and the Constitution and no one has worked out all the legal/religious implications yet. I do, however, feel certain that it is here to stay, and so the church will have to figure out how to interact with it.

    This issue brings more questions than we might think. How much Christian morality can we write into the American legal code, since we are not an explicitly Christian nation (despite loud claims to the contrary)? If we say “as much as we want, because God’s law is the standard,” then have we admitted the Reconstructionists were right all along? How much legal activism are Christians called upon to do anyway (there’s not much about government in the New Testament)? These aren’t easy questions to answer. They certainly aren’t made any easier when anti-gay marriage conservatives, who decry the use of Sharia law in American courts, consistently give speaking gigs to Reconstructionists who want to replace the Constitution with the Mosaic law (right down to stoning rebellious teenagers).

    Also, it doesn’t matter if the majority of gay people are non-religious. All it takes, constitutionally, is ONE PERSON whose constitutional right to freedom of religion has been infringed upon. If there is ONE gay person who feels bound by their religious belief to marry their partner, and they are forbidden to do it under the law, then it COULD be argued that their constitutional rights have been violated. I’m merely pointing this out as a legal angle, not to explore the slippery slope from this to bestiality that, yes, could be derived from this argument. We’d better get used to this reasoning, because I guarantee you some clever defense lawyer will use it, and then we may see state constitutional amendments defining marriage being struck down for violating the federal Constitution.

    We also must ask this question. Can American evangelicals cope with living in a country where they are no longer the majority voice? Most Christians around the world are not the majority religion in their country, and they live accordingly. But evangelicals have been the majority religious voice in America since about 1620. Now that they are losing that majority, what will they do? Passing laws will only work for so long (and in the end, might not work at all). Can they make the transition to being a minority and learn how to deal with it, or will they just sit around and whine that they are no longer the majority? Because right now, they seem to be choosing the second option – and whiners get ignored fast.

  188. We also must ask this question. Can American evangelicals cope with living in a country where they are no longer the majority voice?

    Hester, I don’t think that evangelicals 9at least, not in the current sens of the term) have *ever* been “the majority voice” in American society and culture.

    but a heck of a lot of ’em think they are/have been.

  189. @ Numo:

    You may be right – I maybe should have rephrased that as just “Christians.” “Christian values,” however (and yes, I know that phrase is grossly overused), did used to be more of a societal assumption in America than they are now, even if they were frequently ignored on a practical level or otherwise abused. I guess that is what I was trying to get at. America has operated with basic “Christianese” assumptions and vocabulary for so long that I’m not sure American Christians know what to do now that that is changing. They think that being made fun of on SNL qualifies as “persecution” while Christians in Iran and Saudi Arabia are forced to operate underground.

  190. I think it is one thing to condone or not condone gay marriage. It is another to use the force of the law to ban gay marriage for someone else. The point has been brought up that this is all related to bunk American exceptionalist theology – this is absolutely right and absolutely tragic.

    I work in a major University in Toronto (a liberal city with a large gay populatoin) and I can tell you that NAMBLA is a red herring in this debate.

  191. So now they are planning to go to Chick fil a Restuarants and “kiss.” So mature of them. It’s not enough for them that Chick fil a has employees that are gay.

  192. “Also, it doesn’t matter if the majority of gay people are non-religious. All it takes, constitutionally, is ONE PERSON whose constitutional right to freedom of religion has been infringed upon. If there is ONE gay person who feels bound by their religious belief to marry their partner, and they are forbidden to do it under the law, then it COULD be argued that their constitutional rights have been violated”

    Now add Sharia law as “religious freedom” to the mix where practicing it would violate the civil rights of US Muslim women. This is the one place the liberals are total hypocrites.

  193. CFA gas a right as a private business to have issues they support and are outspoken on. So do gay businesses. What we should be concerned about is this blackmailing of companies to go along with certain agenda’s. What has happened to free speech even it some think it is stupid? And why would the gay community need to resort to coercion/blackmail to get companies to go along with their agenda? This is exactly what the KKK did to small businesses back in the 70’s when busing was an issue here.

    This is why I am more Liberatarian every day.

  194. There is a significant difference with respect to Sharia law. No one in the U.S. wants people to live under “Sharia” as known and practiced in some backward areas of the world. What few people seem to understand is that the concept of Sharia is a group of religious elders deciding what the law is in that community and applying it. It is fairly close to the OT law AS IT WAS ACTUALLY PRACTICED, not just how it was in the Torah. And not terribly different than a lot of what passed for law in the dark ages in Europe. There are issues in Sharia law that are referenced in contracts that can come before a U.S. court. In order to understand the contract terms, a court would have to understand that particular part of Sharia law, such as issues of repayment terms, interest, and a religious community being responsible for some kinds of contracts, rather than just the individual signing. That is totally different than applying the Sharia law of some backward remote farming village to a modern business agreement that happens to use as shorthand some aspects of Muslim holy law.

  195. @ Sophie,

    Quite the parody in the link you’ve provided, a propagandist’s blueprint to sell fear and loathing.

  196. @ Haitch,

    In addition to being a gifted comedian, Stewart is also an equal opportunity lampooner. His point is clear, whether you’re on the Evangelical right or a shrill ideologue on the left, you can’t have it both ways when it comes to free speech & freedom of enterprise.

  197. I just wonder how many of those participating in buying from ChikFilA on Wednesday (or any day)took a bag of food to the people standing on entrances to freeways with signs asking for help? I don’t think they care what the politics are as long as they have a full stomach!

  198. Muff Potter – frankly I think it’s genius. I felt genuinely repulsed by heterosexuals while reading it even though I am one! If he was following the formula used by anti-gay groups then no wonder there is so much homphobia in the world.

    This thread has really made me think about the issues around gay marriage, so I have to thank Dee for the post.

    Can’t watch the Jon Stewart link in the UK unfortunately.

  199. Having just spent a week in Brighton, the ‘gay capital of the UK’, it has simply reinforced my belief that Christians should simply embrace homosexuals for the lovely people they are. The fact that they’re gay? LEAVE IT ALONE. Discrimination and offensive language will NEVER change anything. I agree that homosexuality is outside of ‘God’s perfect ideal’, but aren’t we all? We trust God to take care of our friends and families – why can’t we let go and let God when it comes to homosexuality in the world? We have no business trying to change other people, Christian or non-Christian, to become the way we think they should be. The Bible never commands us to, in fact it stands against such an idea.

  200. @ Anne,

    I fully concur. There’s no denying that same-sex amorous activity misses the mark with regard to the Biblical record, but does it have to be a prime focal point with evangelicals? I’m wondering if conservative evangelicals in the UK are as rabid about it as they are here in the States.

  201. Anne

    Thank you for your comment. But, i do have a question. Why shouldn’t we try to change “other people?” Change is a broad word. If you were to meet me, I bet that, over time, you would see my flaws. The Scriptures teach us all sorts of things we should target-anger, self-centeredness, greed, envy, impatience, self righteousness…. When we work with drug addicts, we try to get them to change their lifestyle. When we work with prisoners, we try to help them to turn from their ways that brought them to jail.

    A long time ago, I began to ignore a friend who I found out was going to move a long distance away. I believe I was sad and so began to protect myself from the pain of her moving. One day she came over to my house and told me I was ignoring her and she started to cry. She told me she wanted her friend back. I realized what I had done. It was self protective. And so, for the few remaining weeks, I spent time with her even though it would mean the pain would return when she left. She confronted me and changed me and I am glad she did so.


  202. Re Muff’s last post, I think conservative evangelicals in the UK are concerned about the situation, but the UK has the odd situation where on the one hand we have a state church (the Anglican church, here known as the Church of England) but on the other hand society as a whole is generally perceived to be post-Christian, a state of affairs that has probably been moving in that direction for several decades if truth be told, due to liberal theology/conservative isolationism/two world wars (take your pick!). Most evangelicals in the UK are unhappy with the idea of civil partnership becoming gay marriage, but on the other hand there is no extreme party within Christian circles (as far as I am aware) that advocates bringing back punishment or even death for homosexual acts (as per the Reconstructionist movement). This picture is probably true across most of Europe, even more traditional countries.

  203. Pingback: Different scenarios, same problem | SallieBorrink.com

  204. Haitch,

    I love it when Christians care about animals. Being around them is such a joy and always helps me regain sense of perspective. I liked the farmer’s thoughts about creation, that it is an ongoing process. And I loved the photos of his chickens, running free and happy and pecking at melon. I look forward to the day when all farms are like that.

  205. Trina –

    I haven’t time to read all the comments now but just have to say I am SO happy to hear your voice again! Your first comment moved me to tears. I learn so much from you, thank you!