Dee –

Thank you for this.

To elaborate on my comment from the last thread, this site is a safe place to come and sit – and speak – and listen.

And the blogs of the New Reformed are not. If I were so inclined to comment there, I would need to armor up.

I hope Jared answers you. It’s amazing how snide and even cruel these guys and their followers can get in their comments and responses. It is one of the reasons that I am pretty much done with “church”. For me, I have yet to find a church that feels safe.

As to the ‘missional’ label, you guys do far more to dialogue with a diverse group than they do. I’m not sure they can even imagine having a dialogue with people like you do.

Their use of the term ‘missional’ highlights one of the reasons I am so tired of labels to describe everything…’missional’, ‘biblical’, ‘gospel’, ‘godly’, ‘plain meaning’….they use – or rather abuse – these terms so much they are losing their meaning. I think this loss of meaning is even happening within their own ranks so that they don’t even really always understand exactly what is being said when they talk amongst themselves.

The word heretic is coming to the same end as the word gospel — both words have lost their meaning due to excessive over use.

Part of “Biblically Missional” may be to remember, “A man finds joy in giving an apt reply–and how good is a timely word!” Prov 15:23. I, for my part, forget this.
Your Wurmbrand quote reminded me that we never really know which word we speak will be “timely” to someone else. I can quote only one thing from Wurmbrand by heart, which was not in his book proper, but the epilogue. Speaking of his own writings in that very same book, he said, “I wonder if you disagree with many of the thoughts expressed in this book. I, for my part, disagree.”

BTW: Their definition of “missional” is garnering followers after themselves.

Has Doug Wilson actually claimed to be “missional”? I would’ve thought that he would eschew the word, with its emergent connotations…

Sergius –

😉 Rejecting other seminaries, this seminarian disseminates his seminal positions through seminars at his own seminary.

Bless you, Dee.

I sent Jared my own email about the way things happened on his blog, and specifically the fact that he didn’t admonish Doug for the insults he gave (specifically to me, but also to others). It was a couple of days, but I did get a response in which Jared apologised for not doing anything in response to those personal attacks. So for me, while I still don’t like how it was handled, I’m going to consider Jared’s participation water under the bridge. Doug, on the other hand, still has a lot to answer for (not that he will).

Dee, I hope Jared does get back to you, I get the feeling he received a lot of emails so it might take a while to go through them all.

Seeker at 2:57 AM today said:

“In my opinion, [Jared Wilson] messed up when he got frustrated over not convincing others…thus responding the way he did. He could have acknowledged he was not getting through, acknowledged the hurt that quote caused, and taken the post down.

“Instead, he chose to defend himself and [Doug] Wilson.

“I will say, some of the comments directed towards him were not very ‘missional’ either…and I can understand why he would be frustrated, yet he still should have responded differently.”

I believe you’ve landed on one of the deepest issues here, and it isn’t about misogyny or “gospel-centeredness.” It’s about the dominant ways that the Mssrs. Wilson and their respondents approach “conversation.” It’s about the ways God providentially “wired” us to process information, our learning styles, our epistemology.

For those familiar with Myers-Briggs, this is a clash of the “T-Js” with the “F-Ps” – to the max. Both T/Thinking and F/Feeling are about abstract things … reading between the lines of the concrete things and experiences we encounter. Head and heart often clash – perhaps because we polarize them and act as if only one of them is totally trustworthy and the other really is not. J/Judge is about wrapping things up quickly, coming to closure. P/Perceive is about keeping things open, holding conclusions lightly not tightly. So …

Those who predominantly Think and Judge value theoretical thought (start with correct theory and you will apply it in correct practices). This involves gathering details, analyzing, flowcharting, and coming to closure.

If you’re really good at T-J, you know you can accomplish this all by yourself. Too many outside voices just means distraction. Silence means you’re processing things internally, thinking it through, mentally modeling options and excluding the ones that lead to false conclusions. You’re figuring out the closed system of “truth,” and the “right” answers will naturally be self-evident to others.

Those who predominantly Feel and Perceive value action-reflection (start with experience and then process it holistically to see what you learn/think). This involves immersing in an event, listening to your heart and gut and head and other people, coming to some tentative ideas about the situation, processing it aloud some more, and closing in on clarifications over time.

If you’re really good at F-P, you know you can never accomplish this all by yourself. You’ve got to give voice to what you’re considering in order for others to hear and reflect back. Silence means being stuck, not able to reason it out, not finding the holes in your conclusions by means of a “social CAT scan.” (Which is why authoritarian silencing of people is such an effective tool for shutting down F-P victims of abuse and keeping them from moving forward.) You’re wrestling with the open system of “wisdom,” and there may not be “right” answers, but progressively “wiser” answers.

When T-J people don’t seem to be getting through in “convincing” others of the logic and rightness of their position, they can act like they assume others are deaf or stupid, and they repeat their points, only louder.

When F-P people don’t seem to be getting through in “connecting” with others about their position or aren’t allowed to voice their experiences, they often act like they assume others are cold or heartless, and they get on an emotional rollercoaster and it makes them sound more whiney.

I do not mean to imply that people who are dominant T-J processors are unfeelings or have no relative wisdom on disputable issues, or that those who are dominant F-P processors are unthinking or don’t care about absolute truth and morals. My key point is that the clash of processing styles means the whole form of conversation fails. It is polarized at the deepest possible level of how paradigms come together – integrated by ways we process information NOT by points of theology. T-Js engage in debate; F-Ps engage in dialogue. Both have an internal “logic,” but neither achieves the full picture.

How can any of us claim to be “missional” (which, in my opinion, is about being cross-cultural in the host society of our sojourn) if we do not even contextualize our communications to those who claim to be in the same household of faith? We all fall short in this …

I started with Seeker’s quote, I’ll end with Gossip – A.J. Gossip, that is, a old-time preacher who cared about making sure that people could fully engage in learning with their entire being, as design by God and in His image:

“A basic trouble is that most Churches limit themselves unnecessarily by addressing their message almost exclusively to those who are open to religious impression through the intellect, whereas … there are at least four other gateways – the emotions, the imagination, the aesthetic feeling, and the will – through which they can be reached.” ~ A.J. Gossip (1873-1954)

If you want to consider more about this perspective on conflict or collaboration based on information processing styles, I have two tutorial pages on my blog. Tutorial #11 is on Learning Styles. Tutorial #12 is on Transformational Teamwork (compositing a team of people with different styles).

Dee,

I’ve enjoyed so much about this blog and it is daily reading for me without much commenting.

But I have to say that this post is one of those very rare posts on ANY blog I read that stirs me very deeply. You have captured the essence of what it means to truly share the Christian message much less be “missional.” This statement…”This is not a blog for certain kinds of Christians. It is a blog for all types of people.”…says it all.

With this kind of heart the gospel message you continually give out through life, lips, words and ways, will be clothed in the kind of authority only the One who has “all authority” possesses. People will be drawn to “hear ye Him.” [Not you] That’s as it should be. Thanks!

Brad, for what it’s worth, I’m a T/J, and I find Wilson incredibly offensive. But that could just be because I’ve witnessed firsthand the fruits of his teachings.

@ JJ

Touché. You got me there.

I couldn’t afford to go to seminary. I did attend a top-notch ovulary, however, where my classmates included Rachel Held Evans and her husband Dan.

@ Dee

Sorry, Dee, but I’m under strict orders from the Doug to only discuss this with other men.

@Brad/Futurist Guy

From what institution did you take your degree? I ask because I was considering doing a second master’s in LING/ESL at NEIU

Dee/Deb – if you go to the Femina blog, read the article about the GOOD that can result when your husband is “slandered.” I think that THEY think that ANY critique of their beliefs is SLANDER.

@ Leila. The trouble with any assessment system is that God designs each person to be far more than any one tool can profile. And any given person can defy the profile or balance it out with other dominant learning styles, spiritual gifts, and natural abilities.

Part of what’s intriguing about looking at Myers-Briggs Temperament Indicator is that it helps with capturing some *general* sources of communication conflict because of stark underlying differences in ways we process.

However, I doubt that MBTI (or most other “type” tools) can explain what appears to be an utter lack of conscience … although some learning style theories can help understand that people who are heavily oriented to theory and theology are often also highly sarcastic. They can find the weak/vulnerable points in another person’s being and rip them apart. (A rather literal translation of sarcasm is chasm + sarx = “tear flesh.” So, is ripping someone’s soul apart Christlike? Compassionate? Missional?)

Anyone with a conscience and compassion – especially one with Christlike character and empowered by the Holy Spirit – would certainly have some kind of repulsion or reaction against the damage inflicted by legalistic teachings that shrivel the soul and authoritarian actions that condition people for further psychological and spiritual abuse.

Speaking of which, in my reading stack is a secular book on conflict and bullying in the workplace. The author suggests that people with high E.Q.s (emotional quotients) tend to be the conflict mediators and absorbers, but they can only take so much before they have a melt-down. Is it possible that the people who truly care about other people might be the mostly likely to suffer spiritual abuse, because they will assume too much responsibility for things that go wrong between them and authoritarian leaders? If high E.Q. people are clued in to relationships, are they likely to try to stay (too long) and work things out, or be “pimped out” by abusive leaders to encourage others to try to go along and get along? Lots of questions …

Anyway, there you go, for what it’s worth.

@ SMG. Well, no suggestions to offer as I have only a bachelor’s degree and, of all things, I earned it at Washington State University in Pullman, WA, just over the border from Moscow, ID, where I lived for 15 years in the milieu of Mr. [D.] Wilson’s earlier era.

This ENTJ finds Douglas Wilson just plain wrong on certain things (not everything, of course) and pugilistic in character. He imposes his personal theories and patriarchalist concepts on Scripture and presents them as biblical mandates for everyone.

I really agree with what Tammy said. Part of what is difficult is how easy I find it to be upset with the current position someone holds, if they seem utterly unmovable and there is no learning arc that indicates the presence of at least some humility.

Growth toward Christlike character is about trajectory. There’s a lot of action and motion for something that orbits around a fixed point, but there’s no forward trajectory. And someone’s life shows there is no such growth – despite how “orthodox” the positions appear to be – then it’s very possible that he or she is UNqualified for public leadership in ministry due to immaturity, or DISqualified from public leadership due to lack of character, soul-ripping and spiritually-abusive actions, overlording, etc.

Meanwhile, anti-orthodox beliefs are mostly obvious (though evasive language can ooze and schmooze it’s way around the core tenets of orthodoxy), but we haven’t been so careful about anti-orthodox practices. That’s part of what is going on here, I believe. And these anti-orthodox practices – – lack of conciliation, agitating and logic baiting, aggression, extreme sarcasm, social coercion – – are what the world sees so no wonder if they don’t want to hear the our beliefs. These are not “missional.”

dee and deb

This is just a wonderful, and heart felt post. Really loved it when you said…
“Suddenly, everyone who crossed my path became those immortal beings.” 🙂
“I offered two $50 gift certificates to the first two people
who could talk to one of the “overlooked” people.”

Reminded me of Paul saying…
“those members of the body, which **seem to be** more “feeble,” are necessary.”
“those members of the body, which **we think** to be less honourable,
upon these we bestow more abundant honour”
“**but God** hath tempered the body together,
having given **more abundant honour** to that part which lacked:

WOW!!! BUT God… has given more abundant honor – to that part which lacked.

Honourable – in Strongs is # 820 atimos at’-ee-mos.- dishonoured, despised, without honour.
KJV – This is how it’s used in KJV – without honour 2, despised 1, less honourable 1; 4
From Thayers – 1) without honour, unhonoured, dishonoured – 2) base, of less esteem.

Seems to me – this Institutional Gang – this “Corrupt Religious System”

Forgive me Lord – Am I about to sin???

Lets just say – In my experience – they like to give honor – to one another, to the big names …
BUT – NOT to – the feeble. NOT to – those *they think* to be less honouable, less valuable.

AND – It’s very obvious they – Do NOT like to give – **more abundant honour**

To those who disagree with them. 😉

Thanks again for allowing so many voices a place to speak – And be heard – And be honored.

Brad/Futurist Guy said:
“Meanwhile, anti-orthodox beliefs are mostly obvious (though evasive language can ooze and schmooze it’s way around the core tenets of orthodoxy), but we haven’t been so careful about anti-orthodox practices.”

Brad, your comment brings to mind Cindy Kunsman’s statement on her Under Much Grace blog — http://undermuchgrace.blogspot.com/ :

“Of the 210 verses in scripture concerning false teachers, false profits, and Pharisees, 47% concern behavior, 31% concern fruit, 12% concern motive, and only 10% of those verses discuss doctrine.”

In other words, 1st Corinthians 13:1.
“If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.”

Brad – Your thoughts on Myers-Briggs and the recent conflicts were very interesting. I have found M-B to be helpful in understanding myself and others around me.

I’m an INFJ and when I finally realized that so much more of my life made sense. I could never understand why I could clearly discern or see something about a person or situation and others couldn’t when it was as plain as the nose on your face to me. I’ve met people that I knew nothing about and immediately sensed in my spirit there was something seriously amiss. Over time I was proven correct, but often I think people thought I was being overly critical. I’m not. I don’t look for issues and insights. They just are there in living color.

It would be interesting to know the M-B profiles of those who were most involved and vocal in the recent situation.

That should be “tongue” . . .

dee – Right on – Very accurate.
“There is a dark side to some of the members of The Gospel Coalition. It is becoming more and more apparent as we follow their escapades. As long as everyone smiles and agrees with them, all is well. But, the moment anyone goes off reservation, the vitriol comes out.”

As you know – I’ve been banned from the main TGC blog.
And – resricted – or NOT engaged with – on most of the other TGC sites.

I was also asked – by Jared Wilson – before – he was at TGC – after he refused a comment…

Jarreds responce was…
“AAL, I am not permitting your most recent comment b/c it is hairsplitting ridiculousness.
Take your soapbox elsewhere, please.”

Well, at least he said please. 😉

Here is the site – http://gospeldrivenchurch.blogspot.com/2011/02/un-conference.html
Oh yea – There were a few, 3 or 4, privious blogs where he didn’t like my questions.
This was just the last straw – that broke – the camels back – I mean Jareds YRR commitment.

Here is what he refused to post…
——————
“Jared

You write…
“AAL, read Hebrews 13. Must’ve skipped that chapter in your search for and not finding anyone referred to as a leader of a congregation.”

That’s close – but not quite accurate – when searching the Bible…

I found NO congregations “Led” by a “Pastor/Reverend.” Have you?

I found NO verse that says a ‘Pastor/Reverend” is a “leader.” Or called “leader.”
In the Bible, All “Disiples of Christ” called themselves “Servants.”
NO “Disiples of Christ” called themselves “Leader” or “Servant-Leader.”
Why isn’t “Servant of Christ” good enough?

I found NO “Pastor/Reverend” being hired, or fired, by congregations.
NO “Pastor/Reverend” going from one congregation to another.
Most “Elders/Overseers” were known by the other believers when appointed.

Is there one congregation, in the Bible, “Led” by a “Pastor?” With a “Title?”
And, every “Pastor” I’ve met has the ‘Title” “Reverend?” Is that in the Bible?
Are there any verses that say a “Pastor,” or a “Reverend,” is a “Leader?” 😉

Jesus warned us, we can make “the word of God” of “non effect” – because of
Commandments of men? Doctrines of men? “Traditions of Men?” Oy Vey!! 🙁

Mark 7:13
KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice;”
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16

One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.’
——————–
So – Instead of Jared admitting he could NOT answer the question – From the Bible…

The question was – when searching the Bible…
“I found NO congregations “Led” by a “Pastor/Reverend.” Have you?”

He decided to call the question – “it is hairsplitting ridiculousness.”
And tell me to – “Take your soapbox elsewhere, please.”

NOPE – Jared Wilson does NOT get a gold star for working and playing well with others. 😉

Dee,

“And no cutesy, pretend we really are nice posts at Trevin Wax’s blog at TGC is going to convince me. The current post sounds “nice” but it does not define what I have observed either in this instance or in many, many others. It is theology without the actions. They can now say they all agree and keep on doing what they do.”

This is just it. They talk the talk. They (sometimes) say the right things, but they often don’t act those things out. Their words and actions don’t line up.

If I remember correctly, you mentioned in another comment that you wondered what a psychiatrist’s assessment of Doug Wilson would be. My bet is Narcissitic Personality Disorder. After reading through many of his writings and posts, following the blogs in the current brouhaha, and reading through some documents posted about his history, it certainly sounds like he has personality problems.

Frankly, I don’t think anyone will ever get an apology. If Doug Wilson’s wife, daughters, son, church elders, and colleagues who have known and worked closely with Doug for many years were being honest, they would have to admit that he’s never apologized for anything. Someone with NPD cannot say I’m sorry. Sometimes, they make “fauxpologies” to manipulate others. Fauxpologies look something like this: “I’m sorry, BUT… YOU need reading comprehension skills.” Or “I’m sorry, BUT… YOU (did this or that).”

People with Narcissitic Personality Disorder are excessively arrogant. They genuinely believe they are superior to others. They believe they are right, and anyone who disagrees is wrong or flawed. They refuse to consider another person’s perspective or opinion. They lack empathy for others, having no genuine understanding of the feelings of other people. They are on a constant mission to get their narcissistic supply and strive to always be the center of attention.

From my description, it may sound easy to pick out a narcissist from a crowd, but it can be very difficult – even to those very close to the narcissist. Narcissists are masters at manipulation. Their words and behaviors are cunning and baffling. They say and do things, often insidiously, which are hurtful but which can easily be explained away. It’s up to you how to interpret what they’ve done or said, and then the results and consequences are on you.

While I’m certain that Doug Wilson has felt angry and threatened throughout this brouhaha, he has also gotten plenty of narcissistic supply to feed his insatiable ego. Overall, this latest dust-up has worked to his narcissistic advantage. (Most telling are the plethora of posts he wrote about it over the past weekend.)

dee on Tue Jul 24, 2012 at 02:22 PM said:
“Wendy

There are many words that have lost their meaning in this NeoGarbage. Love, biblical, gospel, servant leader, priesthood of the believer, auhtority, leadership, head… I am dismayed.”

You left out grace. Sovereign Grace means “dictatorial with no grace, except for a few”.

AAL –

That is not surprising at all. That is the way they respond when they have no answer. You see, they have “learned” all things “orthodox” which really means traditional. To them orthodox = correct and Biblical. They usually don’t question the premise of orthodoxy.

Can you find my email from 7/22 and respond to it? I had a few things I wanted to bring up privately. Let me know if you need me to resend it.

Well looks like Dougie has hit the big time. I don’t remember who introduced me to The Credenda Agenda. At the time I enjoyed reading far and wide in christian thought and had a subscription. ( 25+ years ago) Even back then Doug Wilson was less than gracious in the letters to the editor section. When I got married my husband read it a few times and said “this guy is an “:&& why do you read this stuff?”. So I cancelled it and never looked back until years later when I was starting to homeschool and he turned up in the Veritas Homeschool catalogue. It kind of squicked me out, but the people I encountered at Veritas were wonderful. I used their products all the way. It saddens me now that they are tied in with Mr. Wilson. He tends to taint most things he comes in contact with, in my opinion.

And on a personal level. Many years ago my step-father (ordained episcopal priest at the time) met with Doug Wilson. I am vague at this point on what the purpose was but I do remember his encounter left a bad impression.

P.S. Since Christian complementarians are an emerging subculture in the Church, part of what is happening right now, I believe, is that same process of sifting and shifting that typically goes on for a relatively new subculture. Because of recent events, perhaps the so-called “soft” complementarians will now see the ugly logical results of the “hard-core” complementarian views.

In other words, the hardcores’ root paradigm is showing itself to produce some very rotten fruit. The softcore complementarians must then decide whether to shift away from that repulsive set of behaviors and the underlying logic from which it sprang, or not.

And when we all start hearing implications that “if you aren’t complementarian, you don’t ‘really’ get the gospel right,” that’s about a half-step away from heresy. It turns complementarianism in gender roles as a requirement for salvation. That is why this is a crucial issue for the Church, and not just for complementarians. And that is why those who don’t subscribe to complementarianism have waited and waited and now are more openly challenging the silence from leaders in The Gospel Coalition:

**Exactly which type of complementarians are you, and what does “gospel-centered” and “getting the gospel right” even mean anymore if these kinds of hardcore notions go silently uncritiqued and unchallenged, and their carriers continue on under your name unrebuked?**

Sorry…

Here’s the link…

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/rayortlund/2012/07/24/all-i-want/?comments#comments

Just want to say something true and good here about Ray Ortlund. Though I do not know him personally I have visited his church several times as my son and his family are part of Immanuel. I am amazed at the sweet and gentle spirit in that congregation and have seen up close testimony of the love for one another both the pastor and the congregation demonstrate in word and deed. I have seen an awful lot of spiritual abuse in my day and know what oppression looks like. While I may not be on the same page with these folks on gender issues and perhaps others, I do know there is something good going on within that congregation.

I’m glad for the apology, at least the second half of it, but Jared’s insistence that it was other people’s comprehension that was the problem is still making me embarrassed for him…simply because I’m absolutely sure he had no idea of the levels of education of thosse he was criticising. Maybe next time we should all sign off with our qualifications. Who exactly does he think reads online theology?

I only wished I could have rung him & talked him through (in my beautiful educated British accent) exactly how poor Doug Wilson’s use of imagery was and how it had led directly to the misunderstanding…but he would have also twigged that I was a woman and hence globally incompetent due to my chrosmosomal make-up.

Dee –

Many of the Calvinista flavor seem to “change their minds/ views” but can’t seem to say things like a “I was wrong about what I said a few weeks ago.” Jared has come the closest of any.

The problem now is that there were people who were asking the “theological questions” on Jared’s blog and they were quite civil but were dismissed. Some bloggers (the DW variety) are dismissing everyone who commented under the same umbrella. The DW variety didn’t even respond until RHE got involved. RHE seemed to be the straw that broke the camels back.

Wendy July 24 2:12, Exactly……..And it is easy for a pathological narcissist to hide in the “church” because a Christian is suppose to forgive and forget. They will use this “forgive and forget” to munipulate others. Therefore allowing the narcissist to get away with what he or she is doing to others. Their usual excuse is that “nobody is perfect.”

To be fair, I didn’t think Trevin Wax’s post (which our TWW queens linked to in this thread) on “gospel-centred leadership” was that bad, apart from (a) using gospel-centred yet again, which he himself acknowledged is becoming all-pervasive, and (b) the idea that “gospel-centred” leaders would be talking/thinking/singing about the gospel all the time.

Beakerj, I live in your part of the world and hadn’t guessed you were a woman – so it just goes to show! Perhaps I should have tried to see how easily I could deceive you 😉

This seems unusual… But…a prayer request. Our neighbor just asked for prayer for her 36 y o son Chris, who’s in the hospital with apparent acute appendicitis. That she asked us is perhaps significant because, like the majority of our neighbors, she’s LDS. I suppose the whole “stake”, which is gathered right now for Pioneer Day at the end of the block, wll be praying, but I do think they’re on a different mission than most of us here.

@ Tammy … thanks. Got the correction one now …

http://www.feminagirls.com/2012/07/18/thems-figthin-words/

@ androidninja (great name, by the way … you read William Gibson?)

Yup, Myers-Briggs profiles never do explain everything, but do seem to be helpful indicators on larger trends of what’s on our radar.

My MBTI is i-N-f-p. So all the correlations for introvert, feeling, and perceiving are weak except iNtuitive which was strong. But another tool, the Mind Styles[TM] Delineator created by Dr. Anthony Gregorc, indicates I have a lot of concrete perception, which is similar to the S for sensory in MBTI, to counterbalance the N. And the Witkin Cognitive Style/Field Orientation tool shows me as having maximum Analytic ability, which rounds out the T in MBTI Thinking and counterbalances the F.

Sighhh … I can’t quite figure out … does this mean I’m a mystery – or a mess? (Both most likely.)

I used to do the scoring on the MBTI profile tests for the doctoral program I worked for as administrative assistant (we are the infrastructure who Keep All Else Going) (!). That’s when I found out that this system was devised based on American culture, where the preferred profile culturally is ESTJ. So, if the score for a particular element ends up a tie, the tie-breaker automatically goes the opposite direction, to I, N, F, or P. The originators of the system calculated that those with I-N-F-P who live in American culture typically stretch themselves to fit in, and so their more natural ways of processing are on the opposite of the E, S, T, or J. Interesting stuff, and helpful as long as we don’t try to make it be our all in all.

An intriguing book the doctoral program used was *Personality Type and Religious Leadership* which contains percentages for each of the 16 MBTI profile combinations.

http://www.amazon.com/Personality-Type-Religious-Leadership-Oswald/dp/1566990254/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1343178379&sr=8-2&keywords=mbti+and+ministry

@ Dave A A … praying here too for your neighbor’s son …

Dave AA, prayers, definitely.

*in whiny voice* Brad, just give me a summary, not the details. Just kidding.

That’s awesome. I’ve been a bit of an MBTI geek since I moved into my new job (in science!) Lots of Ns (like my boss and his big ideas), but many Es, a fellow INTJ (yes, we’re close) and my fellow assistant is an ENFP. She feels I think too much and I sweat the details; I think she should brainstorm more than asking for precise details.

I also agree about the details vs big picture divide in orthodoxy and orthopraxy. Analytical, detail-oriented folks tend to draw circles and lines in the sand, and it doesn’t surprise me that there are many Reformed folks like this. You shared a lot of insight, and I’ll be thinking more on all of you’ve said in the coming days.

I took the Mind-Styles quiz, and I’m a Concrete-Random, followed by Abstract-Sequential. It’s fascinating, but my brain wants me to take a break and think on all of this. 😛 Peace.

@ androidninja. When you’ve recuperbraintated (I’m dominant Concrete Random also), you might find this link of interest, since it appears you have a lot of paradoxical thinking with the combination of dominant Concrete Random plus Abstract Sequential. You’ve got a lot going on!

http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/interpolators/

And if you were designed to be multidisciplinary, you may be a polymath as well.

http://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2007/11/30/polymathology-welcome-to-my-world/

Final thought: A quote from someone whom I’ve come to understand a lot better after I learned more about MBTI. A very strong TJ said, “I show my passion by what I think.” That was around the time that I challenged them to be sure they balanced things out on their team with some … umm … FP type people so they could also be aware that they don’t draw too many lines in the sand and hurt people thereby.

Bottom line summary point (which we Very Analytic types finally get to at the END of our thinking, not at the beginning) that ties all this learning style stuff in with Dee’s post above: Learning styles provide us a great tool for learning to listen to those who are unlike us, and respect how God has fearfully and wonderfully made them … just as He has fearfully and wonderfully made us.

Brad and all,

Speaking of gatekeepers, has anyone ever seen a biological family, other than Michael Jackson’s, that so fiercely defends the patriarch’s actions? At the femina blog, Doug Wilson’s wife, two daughters, and daughter-in-law are going crazy writing one post after another attacking his critics and claiming that they’re being persecuted for the name of Christ. They’re also commenting on several other blogs. Doug Wilson has linked to their posts on HIS blog. I haven’t seen anything like it. What in the world??

@ Wendy
methinks they do protest too much (and where is all that anger and angst coming from?) It would be mean to say Stockholm Syndrome (I don’t know these people or anything about their private lives), but it all has that slightly creepy feel — like Look, see how free and fierce and un-oppressed we are!

But does anyone else find it ironic that the Great Patriarch is defended by so many women going into battle?

Wendy,
Doug W at one point responded to an accusation of misogyny with “The Wilson women love me.,”
And the Wilson men? Not the same rabid “fandom” from them. Note the different spirit in this latest post from Jim Wilson:
“There is still another way to have a normal and natural heart obedience. (to the Word of God) In a father-son relationship there are three causes of the son being like his father. The first, is genetic inheritance. He looks like his father. The second, is a command/obedience relationship. The third is imitation. It is this one that is another way. The Bible makes reference to it several times. Here are few of those instances.

But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, . . . Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matthew 5:44&48 (NIV)

Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 1 Corinthians 4:15&16 (NIV)

Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. Ephesians 5:32-5:2 (NIV)”
http://rootsbytheriver.blogspot.com/2012_07_01_archive.html
Imitation of the Father, rather than command/obedience!

I don’t see any problem and I would have left those comments if you left them on my blog…shoot, have said the same things myself many times! There have been times when I have removed comments for various reasons that others didn’t understand and that is part of being the blog owner. Have you emailed and asked why he removed them?

My nice words were not only about Immanuel but about Ray as well coming from firsthand testimony of his good and true personal ministry to those in his congregation. I hope that if he has truly been on the receiving end of spiritual abuse himself in the past that he is able to consider these things daily from the other end.

But your post is contrary to the GC narcissistic “pastor is the authority in the church, the head of the local congregation and is above reproach” or questioning. Note that “above reproach” in their lingo means that no one can reproach them, they have been appointed by God and so any one who would reproach them is going against God. You stepped over that line to suggest that the pastor can be questioned by a mere member or potential member.

Arce

Yes – I stepped over the line… BUT – He had to read it – to delete it… 😉

And – Just maybe – one or two others read it also.

Thank You Jesus…

Amos,
Though Ray seems like a nice guy, and your hard time is not with him, his heart must be saying,”thus saying thou reproachest us also.” from Luke 11:45
Any cracks in the “system” threaten him with unemployment.

Hi Dave

You write…
“Any cracks in the “system” threaten him with unemployment.”

You don’t really think that his possibly losing his…
Power – Profit – Prestige – Honor – Glory – Reputation – Recognition…
That comes with his “Title/Position”…

Has anything to do with removing those comments – do you? 😉 😉 😉

Jesus loves us this I know… And sets us free.

Where the Spirit of the Lord is – there is liberty…

Yesterday Bridget wrote, “The problem now is that there were people who were asking the “theological questions” on Jared’s blog and they were quite civil but were dismissed. Some bloggers (the DW variety) are dismissing everyone who commented under the same umbrella”
Feeing like– one of those.
A Amos Love said, “I was beginning to enjoy the “deepening conversation,” the communion, koinonia, fellowship.”
Feeling like that, too. I was beginning civil conversations with both Wilsons, but both ended prematurely with lack of response from the other end of the line, then ridicule of the whole blessed umbrella, then closing of comments.

Arce and Dee, What are some good books and web sites on church history? I’d like to find out how scripture has become so distorted over the years. Like the whole thing with the King James Bible. I know these people have done it for their own gain but I want to read the progression of it.

Of course, Humble Apostles would be an exception to the term limits rule. 😉

Eagle said:
“If someone like John Piper spent 4 years working in a bank….etc”

Or how about volunteering with a men’s anger management group or in a battered women’s shelter?

@ Dee & Dave

A look at other Wison men would also be educational.

….and let’s not forget Mr. Pickett

But does anyone else find it ironic that the Great Patriarch is defended by so many women going into battle? — Lynne T

Expendable Handmaids.

The Penguin History of the Church is really good – I linked to Vol. 1, but there are more.

If you want to go the scholarly route, Jaroslav Pelikan is terrific – and he can be very readable, though his history of the church is probably not the place to start for ease of reading.

On the whole, I’m more partial to reading church history written be folks who are disinterested – or largely so – regarding agendas (their own or others’). It’s very easy to fall into all kinds of biases when writing about the history of religion – any religion.

I am a frequent reader of your blog, but not a poster. I had to say thank you Dee and Deb for opening up these discussions. They are much needed for the Christian community to see what is taking place under the guise of Christianity. We can see clearly what is said in Scripture with 2 Tim.3:10-17:

10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance, 11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

We have the ability to think and reason brothers and sisters and know that this kind of behavior is unacceptable and cannot be tolerated. I believe that the Lord has brought a time as this to sharpen and mature Christians to seek Him and His Face, not the pastor or his doctrines. I am so proud of the brothers and sisters on the blogosphere today. And you who are not believers in Christ I am also glad to hear your voice too and pray that you know that He loves you very much.

Eagle I had to make a comment about your narcissists and co-narcs; that is a good one- CO-NARCS….lol Will have to use that one.

With my musical/poetic ears like 3 parsecs of neutron star, I had to force myself to stop thinking about the “War Against The States” and the guy who charged, when I read “Pickett”.
In case anyone is unclear, the Wilson men I have in mind are Jim and Evan, from whom the silence as they DON’T rush to defend Doug is telling. As a non-egalitarian in some ways, I think there’s some gender difference in play here.

“Doug Wilson, 54, the pastor who spearheaded New St. Andrews’ founding, puts the college’s purpose simply: “We are trying to save civilization.” He’s not alone in his mission.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/30/magazine/30Christian-t.html?pagewanted=all

Matter of fact Lynn, if you want to get more technical, let’s call them Codependent narcissists.

I live and serve in a neighborhood of ESL folks and folks non ESL but who indeed struggle with reading comprehension.

They are believers who bring me the firewood I need to heat with, food from their gardens, trees, and specialties of their native lands.

They show up to check on us if there is bad weather or trouble in the neighborhood or town.

They willing care for family members with dementia, physical disabilities, addictions, and mental illness.

No one around them will go hungry or unhoused–even if they give you their own meal or sleep in their own vehicles to help you.

Now THOSE are the greatest church leaders I know, despite the fact they are no longer attending Baptists and lapsed Catholics.

Note: he is their to save “civilization.” He is not interested in individuals. He is going to save the world. This is a Napoloeon complex and frankly, seems like he has a pretty high opinion of himself and his little “kirk” in Moscow. — Dee

Ah, Citizen Robespierre’s Republique of Perfect Virtue! The Cause so Righteous it justifies any evil whatsoever to bring it about! The Perfect Omelet that always requires cracking more and more eggs! The distant stare, eyes always on the New World on the horizon! The Collective World, not the Individuals in it!

I find it appropriate that his HQ is in a town called Moscow.