Mars Hill: An “Appalled” Confession on Fleeting Martian Friendships

“The friend who can be silent with us in a moment of despair or confusion, who can stay with us in an hour of grief and bereavement, who can tolerate not knowing… not healing, not curing… that is a friend who cares.” Henri Nouwen

The following story was sent to us by a reader who is known as David Apostle Appalled. Although the story is about Mars Hill, we have received comment after comment about those who lost their friends when they decided to leave a wide variety of churches. Most of these churches are heavy on discipline and light on loving relationships.

Love is currently a demonized word in certain Calvinista circles, along with other hyper-uthoritarian churches. Some of these guys downplay the word because they think it is touchy feely and feminine and touchy feely and feminine is out of vogue and masculine cage fighting is in. Others feel that an emphasis on love will lead to universalism and, instead, we must focus on the fires of hell. Some of these folks have redefined love to mean “get mad and tell them about hell.”

TWW has stated that we believe in hell so let’s not even go there. We believe that love has been sidelined as a “female” emotion and that is an anathema to those who believe, like Piper, that Christianity has a “masculine feel.”

We believe the New Testament clearly states that Christians will be known by their love.I fear this teaching has taken a back seat in many churches. But true love is fierce and difficult. It is constant during times of stress and painful changes. In the last century, Richard Wurmbrand was jailed for his distribution of Bibles behind the Iron Curtain. He was occasionally tortured. He said “When you crush a flower, it rewards you by giving you its perfume. When you crush a Christian, he/she rewards you by giving you their love.”

When someone decides to leave a church over concerns about theology or practice, those left behind are presented with a dilemma. The leave takers have told their buddies that they no longer agree with said church. People who are not comfortable in the strength of their own faith and convictions than reject the leaver because they cannot accept that people can disagree on such issue. In order for them to feel they are “correct” in their beliefs, they must reject the person who is challenging the status quo.

Bottom line: People who reject friends in this instance are not solid in their faith. Mature people will understand that friends can disagree with one another and still be friends. Are today’s churches producing a group of people who can only exist in a hive mentality? If so, such churches are missing the Gospel boat (I could not resist)

David, thank you for your honesty. May your testimony convict the heart of those in churches who have substituted fear filled conformity for love.

(added at 10:52 pm)”If someone asks him, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ he will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’ Zech. 13:6

“The friend who can be silent with us in a moment of despair or confusion, who can stay with us in an hour of grief and bereavement, who can tolerate not knowing… not healing, not curing… that is a friend who cares.” Henri Nouwen

If someone asks him, ‘What are these wounds on your body?’ he will answer, ‘The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.’ Zech. 13:6

Find the common theme in these heartbreaking statements by Joyful Exile from Mars Hill, Jonna here

“Regretfully, I treated my friend, Karen, horribly. After she was fired I stopped seeing her altogether. I was afraid of what it might mean for me if I continued as her friend. It was never spoken but rather understood that to remain in contact with her would be unwise.

Paul had no advocate, no friend, no witnesses to support him.
A close friend (we thought)…

Lief Moi (Mars Hill co-founder and Mark’s so-called best friend)– the one who would go toe-to-toe with him – had been demoted, diminished, and basically cast aside.
We so longed to be restored to our friends, to have our name and reputation exonerated, and to have peace in our relationships. This had become our family that we loved and served and ministered to as our own dear children and as brothers and sisters. These were our dear friends. How could they do this to us? Words do not adequately describe the shock, horror, betrayal, and rejection we felt. The weight of the loss was excruciating.

And no one from their group remained in friendship with them. They were shunned, too.
Waking up to the abusive system we had been a part of, I was reminded and convicted about how I had treated my friend, Karen, years earlier.”

********* I call this “Martian Friendship”. Jonna isn’t alone in this, by any means.********

“This story is based on truth. It’s a much smaller story than The Troubles in Northern Ireland, and hard to tell forthrightly. No one died in our case. Aside from the names I’m changing of my friends, faulty memory and hindsight may have changed some other facts as well. The names only suggest character, and should not be viewed as allegorical. Similarities to any “family of churches” are intentional, but intended to show that the same problems can be present in small, unknown churches with well-meaning leaders.

We’ll call the one friend Apostle Charles, and the other, Brother Brent. I’m Apostle Dave. I was Charles’ right-hand man. I was ambitious to get into full-time ministry. Ambitious Dave, so to speak. Pastor Charles appointed me (without congregational input) to help him out as Associate Pastor with the fast-growing, but still small, flock. This was a good church in many ways. Charles was a good pastor in many ways. But Charles also had some shortcomings. He’d get “intense” if people disagreed with him. He managed all the church funds, and did so “frugally”, and needy people were told to manage their money better or work harder, although the church had thousands in savings. Hurting people were not being “bound up”. And did I mention that Charles sometimes got angry or got even to get his way?

Brother Brent was older and more mature in Christ than “Elder Charles”. In fact, he was likely the most qualified person to be an overseer or bishop in our church. But alas, he wasn’t the Founding Pastor. He was aware of Charles’ failings and would lovingly but persistently bring them up, for the sake of Charles as well as the church. I was sometimes there for these discussions. While agreeing with Brent, I tried to play peacemaker or be an ambassador of reconciliation. I felt God could better work in Charles’ heart if Brent would only be less persistent and more understanding. Or maybe I didn’t want to risk my “job” (neither of us was on salary). Charles would express his frustration over “Bother Brent” when we’d meet in private, and I’d stand up for Brent to some degree and Charles would acknowledge in some degree his need for more humility. No real change ensued, and new occasions arose for more discussions. Charles began viewing Brent as a “troubler”.

Eventually Brother Brent realized the futility of it all and decided to leave the church and not “join” any others (which he never has, some 16 years later). We had no formal membership. No covenant (I know, how “unhealthy”). I conducted an informal “exit interview” while giving Brent a ride home. He explained his reasons for leaving and I told him why I thought he should stay. The crazy thing is, we were friends, and yet we both understood we were saying Goodbye. We had a blessed time of prayer and fellowship sitting in the car by his house, and then I never saw him again. Why? Because I was a “shepherd” and he was moving on from my flock? Because I was standing by my “senior” pastor’s authority? Because I was ambitious? So we couldn’t be friends any more? How sick was that?

A couple years ago, “Waking up to the abusive system we had been a part of, I was reminded and convicted about how I had treated my friend, Brent, years earlier,” and I apologized to Brent. One thing he said of note (while graciously accepting): “While he was Brother Charles, he was a great guy to be around. When he became Pastor Charles, he became insufferable.”

Side note: about a year after our exit interview, someone else with a heart for Charles and for our church, an outsider, felt he had a word from God: “Lay It Down!” Being somewhat charismatic softened by the Spirit, we accepted this, and Charles and I laid down our “ministries” and the church disbanded. A few years later Charles and I found ourselves as happy ex-pastors attending the same church, content to let others lead. This all is in no small part due to the ministry of Brent, and the fact that neither of us had been paid for being professional clergymen.

Back to the exit interview. If our church had a policy of “Friends, Don’t let your friends resign into thin air”, things would have been better. I might not have shunned Brent. I might have remained his friend. On the other hand, I’m convinced that if our church had a policy of “Pastors, Don’t let your people resign into thin air!” http://www.9marks.org/blog/pastors-don’t-let-your-people-resign-thin-air things would have gone much worse. Charles and I would have “followed up”, concerned for his well-being Heb. 13:17 and our accountability Heb. 13:17. We would have tried to “church discipline” him Matt 18, Heb 13:17. If he refused to “repent” and resume “going to church”, we may have even “excommunicated” him I Cor 5, Heb. 13:17. Which would have been strange, seeing he’d already stopped “communing” with us. We might have gone to other pastors in the community to warn them of this “troubler”. We’d have become his enemies.

So I recommend all churches, even non-institutional ones, institute a new policy to counter Martian Friendship!

*************”Don’t let your friends resign into thin air!”**********

Stay in touch with friends who move on, in sincere brotherly affection. Don’t abdicate this responsibility to pastors, who at best will have mixed motives and conflicts of interest. And if pastors say to shun or to sue? Don’t be like Dave. Don’t go along with that program.

One bit of speculation before I go: We know that our Lord prayed, not just for the Apostles, but also “for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.” John 17:20-23

Perfect unity amongst those whom The Father gave him out of the world– our Lord sees THIS as a powerful message to that world he so loves. So what do we do? Our leaders attempt ecumenical movements large or small to work together a little bit better, while remaining a little bit bitter. Very little unity or testimony to the world follows. But what if every Christian had lots of good friends meeting elsewhere or nowhere Sunday mornings? What might the world believe or know?

Such is Martian Friendship. What had formerly been close, vital, and peacable can quickly become distant, lifeless, and warlike (dare I say Masculine?)— just like god and planet Mars! The Hill is only the tip of the iceberg for this phenomenon– one as old as Judas’ kiss. You Leave, You Lose. Escape the system, and you lose your friends.”

“For the ground our fathers plowed in, the soil it is the same
And the places where we say our prayers have just got different names.”

Comments

Mars Hill: An “Appalled” Confession on Fleeting Martian Friendships — 72 Comments

  1. Boy, this one hit me hard. After years of abuse, when my wife and I finally said “enough” and gave up on church, it seems our friends gave up on us.

    And here we are, over five years later. Save for our grown sons and their families, we still have no Christian friends.

    And the worst part is, that should hurt more. But it doesn’t.

    Isn’t that strange?

  2. John
    I believe the church has promoted a warped view of friendship. We can only be friends if you do what I do at our church, together. These are qui pro quo friendships. In fact since it is quid pro quo, it is not a friendship but masquerades as one. Real friends do not use their friends to boost their fragile egos.

    It is not strange that you feel the way you do. “Save for our grown sons and their families, we still have no Christian friends. And the worst part is, that should hurt more. But it doesn’t.Isn’t that strange?”

    The reason is that your church defined friendship in the context of your abuse. You don’t feel pain because, in some respects, those so called friends contributed to the abuse. Here’s the deal. They were never friends to begin with. They were merely friendly acquaintances who used your friendship to make them feel better within the context of the church. True friends are the ones who love you even if your path takes you along a different road.

  3. We’ve been members of four Presbyterian churches, in three different Presbyterian denominations. I can tell you that none of them were as you have described here, so apparently the problems you’ve mentioned .. abuse .. are definitely not associated with Calvinism.

    Even though I’m still a Calvinist, we’ve been active in an SBC church for 31 years, and have taken an active role in the SBC itself over the past several years, too.

  4. Bob
    We have Calvinists, which apparently you are and Calvinistas. There is a difference. We are opposed to Calvinistas.

  5. Hi Bob,
    The church in my story wasn’t Calvinist in any way. We were a non-denominational home fellowship which outgrew the home. We were the kind of church people wish they could find, many times. But we did a really bad job staying connected when people “left” us.

  6. I lost all my friends when I decided to leave a sick church. Not one phone call, not one email from anyone of those I had “fellowship” with for years, all because I said “good bye” when the still small voice said to me “Leave”. Then Jesus became so real to me during this time of loss. Now I know by experience what I can never lose: Jesus Christ My Lord and Savior.

    I remember Jim Elliott said: “He who is no fool to lose what he cannot keep to keep what he cannot lose.”

    Jesus also said “Foxes have holes and birds have nest but the Son of Man has no place to lay His head.” Somehow I feel when you begin to live for Jesus, people will treat you like they treated Jesus, or rather the Jesus who lives in you. I have experienced the resurrection life of Christ, I am grateful and joyful yet at the same time having no Christian friends from my previous church. What a paradox!

  7. Even when there is no church abuse, the word “friend” really means aquaintance.Most people at church are superficial and have no intentions of really connecting with others. I had finally realized one day that if people could walk away so easily then they were never connected to me in the first place. It was a real eye opener.

  8. Well – it seems I can relate to this as well. When we left the abusive SBC we were attending we lost many friends (guess I should call them acquaintances) FAST. As in, seven years later I still run into these people around the community – at the grocery store, at the ball field, etc and they won’t even look me in the eye, much less speak to me. Real Christian, eh?

    Then recently as we left the ever-growing big church we had been attending I thought it would be nice to email our “life group” people and tell them we were no longer attending the church. I explained it was more of a geographic thing and with gas being so expensive, my husbands 3rd shift work schedule, etc. Out of the five couples we were “doing life with” (the oft use expression at our church and many others for these life groups) – ONLY ONE emailed me back and even acknowledged that we were leaving. The other couples simply ignored it. I guess our leaving for non-theological reasons offended them somehow.

  9. I’ve also experienced the loss of friends after leaving a church, but I didn’t take it too personal. Any friends are usually associated with a church related activity. You see friends after services, you talk with them at a bible study or other church activity. When I had church friends over for dinner or got together to do something fun they remained my friends after I left the church because we had things in common that had nothing to do with the church we attended. I understand that some have felt rejection for good reason, but people who are real friends socialize whether they attend the same church or not.. If you didn’t have that kind of friendship in your church of course your not after you leave. A lot of people never invite someone over for fun outside church or just call to say hi unless its related to the church in some way. But when they leave the church because of some doctrinal disagreement its usually more than that. Its more personal because it involves an irritation with the pastor (not just their teaching). You are making a decision to cut yourself off, but then are disheartened because no one calls to say hi. Real friends are made because two people like being around the other. There are exceptions, but I think some are taking things too personal when they shouldn’t.

  10. I’m sensing a common experience of losing friends when we leave the church. We were very involved at a church for 8 years and had friends tell us that we were “like family” to them. When we left, we never heard from them again. It makes me sad that people that I cared for so much never wanted to maintain a friendship outside of the church. And, this was at a non-abusive church.

  11. Dee,

    I love this “John, I believe the church has promoted a warped view of friendship. We can only be friends if you do what I do at our church, together.”

    You know much about my experience at Capitol Hill Baptist. I do not regret leaving. Not one bit. It’s itneresting, the freedom that I’ve found being outside of a controlling, authoritarian, cult-like, high-demand chruch. The news they preach is not good news. Their congregants and members dont really know how to love others well, as they so often preach and try and practice. That’s the thing that many of the lessons here have taught me– there’s not much love in Calvanism and these doctrines of men.

    The people in the congregation surely reflect that. The thing is, you can preach all day long about sin, and grace and all these things. But when your foundational truths are based on a lie, and are truly far from what the character of God is really like, then those issues tend to bleed out amongst relationships and things that are hidden. Those things that cannot be seen wtiht he naked eye. Those things that the average pew sitter who’s so enraptured and enveloped in it all cannot even begin to discern.

    Other than for this site, and a few relationships that survived my leaving, I often forget about those people. They hardly ever cross my mind. And I cannot, for the life of me, understand how others who do see some of these things continue to stay. I often wonder, “Who do they think God really is? Do they REALLY believe he’s like THAT?” My anger and hatred for them has been resolved; it has been transformed into pity. I feel sorry for them; for the bondage and strongholds in their lives of which they will struggle to break free… or never, for the matter.

    Trust me when I say the person closest to you; the people who you spend the most time with; the people you love and serve the most–in these types of “churches”, they will be the first to reject you. The first to give you some BS line about why you cant’ spend as much time together. The first to stop responding as often to your requests for hanging out together, doing thigns together, emails, phone calls. Others, when you tell them how it offends you, well, they wont understand. They, too, are caught up in the deception and lies. They will make excuses for those who shun you.

    Your heart, in their minds, will be worth sacrificing for the good of the local church; for members of the local body; for unity and the bond of “peace” in their congregation. You know, because as becomes the members of such churches. Funny how their covenant state that when you shall depart from there, that you quickly endeavor to find some other body that you can be a part of. But there is nothing in that covenant that says because One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, we shall continue loving, serving and fellowshiping with one another regularly. Mind you, I never left the geographical region of my old church. And often, I see some of those members in public. I dont even bother to speak. Unfortunately, they simply dont matter anymore, and never will again. I’m fine with that. I have much peace, happiness, joy and freedom in my new life and it was worth every tear, every hardship, the abandonment, mindfoolery and everything else i went through. They were never worth it, and never will be again. The people in my life now are simply amazing and worth everything that has brought me to this place.

    blessings!

  12. Mike,

    You make way too many assumptions. And who are you to tell people what they take too personal? A person leaving a church is not chosing to “cut” themselves off from anyone, other than simply choosing to fellowship somehwere else because they disagree. You miss the point of the argument and yet, you blame the person who has chosen something better for themselves–especially if their church was abusive or controlling.

    Essentially, you are saying you cut yourself off, so you shouldn’t be whining because the people who are your “friends” decide not to be anymore? Really? A person’s choice to worship somehwere else should not change the friendships and comraderie they’ve developed with members. It is true that not everyone will remain an acquaintance or friend. But that’s not really waht we’re talking about here. We’re talking about people with whom we’ve invested a great deal of time, heart, life and love into. THOSE are the realtinships we’re discussing, and THAT is VERY personal. It goes right to the heart fo the matter and is indicative of the real issues and the hidden, underlying stream of consciousness that run in these types of circles. This is not Christ. It is NOT reflective of Him, his heart towards his people, and how we should in turn, model that love and care to one another.

    You assume that close relationships that have occured because of other interests will remain. That is not the case, not usually or generally–not in Calvanista land.

  13. Lindsey
    Well, on the upside, some to wasn’t theological, they merely ignored you. If it was theological, they may have had your name submitted for discipline or you would have been handed over to Satan.

  14. EXACTLY!! We’re talking about people who are like family to us. Not people we simply eat lunch with, or meet up with every now and then. We’re talking about people we’ve had in our homes regularly. Who we’ve shared life experiences with. Secrets. Loved together. Cried together. Served selflessly. That should hurt, Kathi, and it is not normal. Only in a church will people make excuses for people to treat you that way and tell you that YOU’RE the one being too sensitive. But you tell some of your non-Chrsitian or non-Churchgoing friends that and they are absolutely appalled. They cannot fathom treating someone they LOVE that way. Yet, apparently, as Chrsitians and the Body, we’re aslways shoving it in the world’s face about how much we love each other. Yeah, right. If that’s love, then I dont want no parts of that crap.

    You see, the members of your church really, truly are no different than your co-workers, somebody you meet at a bar, a concert or in the grocery store. They’re just as jacked up as anybody else, and they shoudln’t be trusted and invited into your life just because you signed some covenant or share pews together. Oh, and BTW dont sign any covenants!!!

    I look at people in the church the same way I look at people outside of the church these days–with caution, skepticism, carefulness, discernment… Church is a good place to hide your effed-up-ness. You can get away by talking the talk and wearing the fake smile. Serving to no end. Having teas and breakfasts. Praying for others. But all the while, they can be just as messed up on the inside and have no clue how to really love others.

    My advice: take your time getting to know others, anywhere–church, a bar, at work, at school. People are people inside the eglise and outside of it. Don’t let their doe eyes and wide smiles fool you. They’re just people.

  15. Mike
    here is where I disagree. These “life” groups are meant to be places to share intimately about one’s life and faith. Such intimacy demands commitment or it is a shallow encounter group like the 70s.We use all the right words: accountability, love, etc. But such words should not be used if the end result is “see ya later. alligator.” It’s just a pretend intimacy, not dissimilar to my neighbor’s porch.

    “You are making a decision to cut yourself off, but then are disheartened because no one calls to say hi.” People do not cut themselves off from intimacy or friends, just from attending one location of the church universal.

    Here is how my group of friends did it. We all left a church over some serious issues. We all started attending different churches. But, we decided to stay together in a small group. We even have had new people join us. We took the intimacy very seriously and did not reject one another but made the effort to stay together. This should be normative and since it is not, I think the system employed by some churches is a bit of a joke. BTW, this group left our previous church about 4 years ago and we are still together meaning the group has existed for about 10 years.

  16. Trina, Kathi, Stormy

    For all the rhetoric about intimate relationships, it is a bit of a sham. I think the group I belong to is a great example of real friends who get it. Even though we left our previous church and attend different churches, we still have a small group that meets twice a month. And we are not a clique. We always have new members join us. These friends actually cared about one another and refused to be cut off from each other. It can be done if people really care. However, most don’t.

  17. Bob, I was a Presbyterian too. I am also a Calvinist, soft and very soft, not Calvinista, radical, hard and extreme. I like John Calvin who is not like this YRR crowd.

    I was verbally attacked by the wife of an elder when I left. She was an aggressive deaconess at that time. I still remember the resentment, hostility in their eyes – I guess when you leave you become a pariah. I am saddened by the fact that there is so little love in the church of Christ. The #1 fruit of the Spirit is not there, no wonder the church is irrelevant to many people in the world. I am tired of Christian leaders and the like, no matter of what stripe. I cling to Jesus, the true Shepperd who is always faithful and trustworthy and I want to love as Jesus loves, expecting nothing in return, even to those who treated me with contempt and rejection. In fact it’s the Christ who lives in me handles all things for me. In and of myself I can NEVER love those ugly Christians, among the Calvinistas, but the living Christ can!

    Deb can give you a good definition of “Calvinistas” crowd.

    Someone says that even if you are rejected by everyone in your church you can always have fellowship with 3: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

  18. Very poignant discussion.

    It’s a ridiculously convoluted situation (many a church culture), one that seems to zero in on natural, intuitive reactions and responses, assumes they are inherently anti-God thus untrustworthy, and replaces them with scripted behavior.

    People are simply not free to be real, and natural.

    I’ll never cease to be amazed at discovering how much more sincere, kind, generous, and caring people are who don’t go to church. (footnote: I feel very deceived for having been informed otherwise.)

  19. Beloved

    You said “I still remember the resentment, hostility in their eyes – I guess when you leave you become a pariah.” These people are to be pitted. She was hostile because, by leaving, you were rejecting what she deemed to be very, very important to her sense of what is good and right in the world. you shook her world and she as so fragile, she couldn’t handle it. She is a weak person.

  20. “Any friends are usually associated with a church related activity. You see friends after services, you talk with them at a bible study or other church activity.”

    This is true enough. But what happens when you drop out of your activities (or your activities are dropped)? I was an AWANA leader for many years and felt the need to take a sabbatical. Not long after that, AWANA was dropped at our church. Then we took our kids out of the church’s Christian school because we couldn’t afford it anymore. We lost a lot of friends (and so did our kids, for that matter!). Only one gal in a church of well over 1,000 called or wrote me. No one reached out to my husband, and on the few occasions that we returned and sent our kids to the youth group, they were treated like 4th class citizens.

    I’ll agree with dee and Trina here – church friends are usually just acquaintances. Once the touchstone of church is gone, there’s nothing left.

  21. That’s the thing that many of the lessons here have taught me– there’s not much love in Calvanism and these doctrines of men.

    “Doctrines of Men” sounds a little too Calvinista and Christianese a term for me, but I can tell you the mechanism why “there’s not much love in Calvinism”:

    Because Calvinism overemphasizes God’s Soverignity and Will — in short, God’s POWER which trumps everything else. Predestination, In’shal’lah, Eh, Kismet. Sometimes Hypercalvinism even goes beyond that into “Socratic Atheism”, making Utter Predestination their God to whom God is but a predestined puppet.

    (Aside — you also see this in the “TurboJesus” of Left Behind‘s Second Coming scenes; as Slacktivist has dissected the series, it’s all about Christ’s POWER and destructiveness — say the Magic Words and get on the Good Side of the Coamic Baba Saddam.

    The result is a similar dynamic to Islam. At the extreme end, it all becomes about POWER, POWER, and more POWER. God is defined only in terms of POWER (“Soverignity”) and ends up a God who is Omnipotent but NOT Benevolent. There is no Love, only POWER. And the Godly (TM) who buy into this shape themselves in that image, to where they become like their God of POWER and POWER alone.

  22. Tikatu

    Sigh…. sometimes I think that people are playing at church instead of being the church.

  23. Eagle
    One of my pastors says that “Even on my best days, my motives are mixed.”Sometimes motives are hard to perceive since they come from complicated people. I always smile when people say they have “pure” motives.

  24. I value old friends, still keep in touch with a friend I’m now know for 58 years. BUT, I only have so much emotional energy and if we no longer meet at church it will be difficult to keep up with you. I might want to, I probably won’t.
    This has nothing to do with authoritarian or abusive church structures; it has everything to do with living in these United States going 110 miles an hour just trying to keep with with the minimums.
    God is an endless supply of love and compassion; mine is limited.

  25. When one leaves ‘churches’ with a strong group identity/loyalty based around a charismatic leader, the departure is felt as a betrayal even though one is wished God’s speed and all the usual PR spin. Friendships that appeared to be close and life sharing reveal themselves to have only been ‘group’ sharing. No group = no friendship.
    My own wee story of departure and its aftermath can be read in ‘The Prodigal Prophet’ available on Amazon and Kindle!

  26. Dee and Eagle,

    John Calvin said “some portion of unbelief is always mixed with faith in every Christian.” and “our faith is never perfect in this life, we are partly unbelievers.” (Institutes of religion) I say Amen!

    And they (Calvinistas) call themselves “calvinists” and act like they get it altogether; their doctrines and ways are the gold standard, their motives “pure”! I guess they are either too bold or delusional. Self knowledge, I believe, comes from knowing the God who creates man and gives His opinion about all of us in His Word. It’s all in the Book of all books for all to read and contemplate the truth about ourselves.

  27. It’s most uncomfortable to be someone’s project. The realization kicks in sooner or later. It’s hurtful. The game of “Let’s play friendship”.

  28. Elastigirl
    It remind me of some former friends who got into Amway. Nothing is sadder than seeing friends roped into an evening of Amwayland.

  29. AMEN Trina! I have seen more of Jesus in a little mother Beagle who takes in an orphaned kitten than in all the congregations I have been a part of.

  30. Dee:

    How in the world would this pastor know about your motives. Is he sickic and yes I misspelled that word on purpose?

  31. Trina – so true, per the excuses and more.

    I feel like I was well and truly suckered into believing that I had real friendships with people in That Church.

    Not a single one of those relationships has survived – because you have to be part of The Group to be accepted as a “friend.” People on the outside (even on the outside of the so-called inner circles) get dumped.

  32. Indeed.

    I’ve met far nicer, more compassionate people outside church (and religion of any kind) than I ever met when I was “inside.”

    Something’s very wrong somewhere, and I think it’s not with those supposed heathens who don’t go to the Right Churches.

    What was that remark that Jesus made about publicans and prostitutes going into the kingdom of God ahead of the hyper-religious peeps of his day?! Hmm… 😉

  33. Gotta clarify something: I did meet some truly nice people on the inside, but… you had to hew to certain doctrines in order to be accepted as a fellow Christian.

    Again, hmm…

  34. I knew a couple of people at That Church who really did work it like it was a board – or card – game.

    It hurt when I realized they had no real intention of being friends, and that was a while prior to my getting the boot.

    Ouch.

  35. Dave A A

    WOW!!! Two paths very closly related. Lots of stuff in common.

    We were Non-Denominational Charismatic for lack of a better term. And growing fast. We believed in and saw many miracles with many lives transformed. When we held a conference, and we did many, we never charged anything, everything was free. And we would pray for folks for hours. Folks could give gifts but we never pushed it. We were young, and foolish, and wanted to trust God for all things. We were having a blast.

    But – When folks left, for what ever reason, they were gone. Just gone. 🙁
    If they left because of a disagreement – we had a favorite scripture to quote.

    1 John 2:19
    They went out from us, but they were NOT of us; for if they had been of us,
    they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out,
    that they might be made manifest that they were NOT all of us.

    Now, the Pastor was the founder, and the Boss… I was kinda like Brent, and 2nd in command…
    I also had ambition for full time ministry. Even got myself ordained. 🙁 BUT – When I would disagree, or notice a character defect, and try to help, my pastor, my best friend, NOT much would change. And before long, Amos was the “Rebellious one,” NOT submitting to Authority. And Amos became the problem.

    Like you the story is much longer – But when you challenge someones Power – Profit – Prestige
    it gets ugly pretty fast. And now it was my turn to leave… Oy Vey!!! 🙁

    Yes – Lots of Pain… Lots of friends – gone… More than once… Alone – isolated – depressed…

    Crying out to God – Screaming and yelling at God. “Why all the pain? – Why all the tears?”
    “Seperation after seperation – Oh God – How many separations Lord – I can’t take this anymore.’

    And I heard Him say to me…

    I love you – I’m NOT separating you “from” people…

    I’m separating you “unto” myself…

    Jesus loves me this I know… It ALL had a benefit… ALL things work together for good…

  36. J
    What an interesting comment! I, too have a friend that I have never not known! I think the issue at stake is the problem that some people, in certain evangelical churches, have with those who no longer attend their particular church. There is some theology floating around these days that one must get permission to leave such churches (and I am not talking about cults-some SBC, PCA type churches.) If permission is sought, it is often denied. If one leaves anyway, then one is guilty of “disobedience.” When that happens, an unofficial or official shun is imposed.

    Also, there is something in human nature that can cause one to take affront that a friend would leave the “best church on the planet.” Insecure people take that to mean that you don’t like their church and therefore you probably don’t appreciate them as well. To preserve their dignity, they ignore their former friends.

    However, I do realize that friends change due to move and common activities. However, I will never forget a dear friend who was moving away. One day she came over to the my house and told me I was already distancing myself from her. “I’m still here,” she cried. She was right. She also fought for that friendship. Although we have not lived near each other since, we still talk and remain friends, telling each other our hearts.

  37. Dylan

    You, too, have spoken of that. You can read The Prodigal Prophet’s story as well on this blog.Just key it into the search engine.

  38. Beloved
    My pastor once said to me that some Calvinists (we would call these folks, Calvinistas) treat God’s Word as an equation. It is hard for them to nuance their theology at times.

    For example, at the Acts29 site, under their statement of beliefs, they claim that no one is saved unless they make conscious assent to Jesus Christ. But, that would exclude babies, the mentally handicapped, etc. yet they claim that babies go to heaven. Well, at least Piper does. I know one man who categorically believes that babies and the mentally handicapped go to hell.

    Now, some folks at Acts 29 say that it is not what they mean but they do not change their statement. Why?

  39. Mot
    Forgive me. Which pastor and which motives? I am a bit overwhelmed with all the comments and still dealing with some things on the blog. My one dear pastor would never judge motives because, as he says, he can barely figure out his own at times.

  40. Numo and Trina
    Anyone who would dump the two of you are nuts. I only wished you lived closer to us!

  41. at the ever-growing-almost-mega church we were attending life groups were pushed; after you had attended a few times, you were expected to either move forward and “partner” with the church or go away, so to speak. The partner thing was shoved down your throat every Sunday and mentioned each week. You had to go thru a series of 4 classes, then sign a partnership agreement, and part of that agreement meant being in a life group.

    We hosted the life group in our home (didn’t teach, but hosted). After a year, we were told “no kids allowed” even though it was our home and we had 3 kids. So we quit the group and they started meeting elsewhere. A few weeks later I got an email from the “connections pastor” at our church that said “Gee, we see you are no longer in a life group. You signed an agreement to partner and part of the partnership is being in a life group. What can we do to help?” I emailed back very ugly and said that we were VERY happy hosting our life group but the life group leaders didn’t want kids there, so we quit. They offered to pay for babysitting. To which we said NO – Wednesday nights are school nights, even if we homeschool and having our kids with us was important to us because we had kids with medical issues, etc. I was told after that to find a life group that “fit my needs” such as a Sunday Social group – but by all means we had to be in one to be partners.

    Not long after, we made the decision to leave. Like I said above, it had to do with other things too – we live 30 mins from the church, gas is getting expensive and my husband is now working 3rd shift. Plus the other concerns, like the push to become a multi-site church and so on.

    I just shake my head at these false friendships now. And we wonder why nobody ever wants to go back to church after being burned once or twice???

  42. Lindsey
    My husband just got home from work and I read him your comment. He just shook his head. We had a Bible study in our house and told the members to bring all their kids and we would manage somehow with them upstairs. It worked just fine. In fact, sometimes I miss the little ones in my rapidly aging group of friends.

    I wonder how long your former church pondered the word “partner.” Did they hire some marketing group to help them invent it?

    Last year I decided I would never again sign one of those silly agreements. Better to be an “outsider” and come and go without such nonsense. I have come up with a way to answer them if they approach me about joining in any future church. (I made the mistake of signing one of these things about 3 years ago). I will stare at them sadly, appear to tear up and say something about having “a dark night of the soul.” It will make them feel very awkward. Each time they approach me, I shall then hold up my hand and whisper, somewhat desperately, “Not now, dear heavens, not now. You have no idea….” They will think I am nuts and leave me alone. I am a good actress.

  43. Dee wrote:

    “Last year I decided I would never again sign one of those silly agreements. Better to be an “outsider” and come and go without such nonsense. I have come up with a way to answer them if they approach me about joining in any future church. (I made the mistake of signing one of these things about 3 years ago). I will stare at them sadly, appear to tear up and say something about having “a dark night of the soul.” It will make them feel very awkward. Each time they approach me, I shall then hold up my hand and whisper, somewhat desperately, “Not now, dear heavens, not now. You have no idea….” They will think I am nuts and leave me alone. I am a good actress.”

    lolol—can I steal that if I ever get approached? (If we ever set foot in a church again that is–hopeful…)

  44. So true! And so similar. In the church in my story, I’m sure I would have become “the problem”, as well, had not a true friend to “Charles” and myself called us to call it quits first.
    If you were in the Seattle area in the right time frame, you well may have met the “Brent” in my story. He’s been a great blessing to me in the last few years (like yourself) through his Internet site, though we’re miles apart. And Al Mohler says we need to be sitting in the same church building an hour or so a week for “real” fellowship. 🙂

  45. OH yes — they had a big marketing group come in and “brand” the church. Part of the branding included the partnership thing, life groups, and the marketing group even had our church take down the cross on the sign because it might “run off first-time visitors.” (they caught A LOT of flak about that, as you can imagine!)

  46. Diane
    I think I may sell “Dark night of the Soul” T-shirts. Feel free to try it if you can do it without giggling.

  47. Did they take the cross off or leave it? (I don’t think I want to know the answer, but morbid curiosity is getting the better of me…)

  48. Mentioning the mentally handicapped really struck home for me. We used to have a mentally handicapped man at our church. He was very limited, probably the mental capacity of about a five year old, but he came each week. He’d try and sing, he always said ‘amen’ at the end of prayer, and about three times louder than everyone else, and he’d pray separately with the minister after the service. He lived at a special care home and one of the employees of the home would bring him to church every week. About three years ago, the home moved to a suburb about half an hour further away, and he didn’t come for about six months, but because he’d ask every week why they weren’t taking him to church, the home again started getting someone to bring him to our church each week. He came to our church for more than two decades, and nobody’s even completely sure how he originally started coming.
    When he died early last year, everyone in our church was heartbroken. I wish I’d be able to attend the funeral, but I couldn’t make it, but apparently the church was close to full. As sad as his death was, the best encouragement is that, when I see Bobby in heaven, I know I’ll get to really talk to him, really know him, that his earthly impairments will be gone. I don’t know how deep his faith was, but I know it was there, even if he couldn’t articulate it beyond saying amen and some vague singing. And I know I’ll see him in heaven.

  49. My Bible study group meets at the home of a family with young kids, and I love getting to see them as much as seeing the group. The seven year old playing us her violin or showing us the book she’s reading at the moment, the five year old running around and doing gymnastics, the two year old pretending to be a dinosaur, they’re wonderful things that bring the group together. Any church that thinks kids and Bible study should never meet is crazy.

  50. Yo and hello and welcome back TWW!

    I’ve been catching up on some of the comments, and recalling past posts and documentation about membership issues. The more I think about “partner agreements” and “membership covenants” and “confidentiality waivers” in the midst of membership papers etc etc, the more they seem to go beyond theatre of the absurd. I hate to see these kinds of things turn into congregation wars, but really … the kinds of self-protecting expectations and documents are bizarre. What can the everyday disciple do?

    So, I wonder if there should maybe be a reverse covenant that congregation members require the staff to sign in order to sit under their authority. For instance, shouldn’t it be reasonable to have THEM sign, say, the following:

    * None of our staff will ever use any form of emotional manipulation, verbal abuse, spiritual overlording, or physical violence on any church participant, member, volunteer leader, or paid staff.

    * If any such form of staff/pastoral malpractice occurs, people are fully entitled to tell their story verbally or in writing, in person or online, as they determine to be appropriate.

    * If any staff action occurs which is not only unethical, but illegal, we require people to report us to the appropriate legal authorities.

    I don’t know, that doesn’t really give congregants any more power than they actually already have (unless they signed it all away via some weird non-disclosure confidentiality agreement), but still – it’s quite something to see these in print, isn’t it?

  51. Eagle
    I think most Christians are afraid of atheists and agnostics. Deep down inside they do not know how to dialogue and they know it. They fear they will be given a question that they cannot answer. Their faith is tied up in tidy bows of perfect responses and equations. If they cannot answer, it threatens them and calls into question their own faith and that is just palin yucky. It is far easier to stick your fingers in your ear and sing lalalalalala.

    I went on a journey a number of years ago in which I questioned everything and sought answers. I found what I was looking for although not all of the answers.I love to dialogue with those who think differently. It challenges me to go deeper.

  52. Eagle, Your comment, in turn, reminded me of a couple things. My own conversion was, in hindsight, an unusually dramatic one. Still, the evangelicals who “brought me” Christ in 4 easy steps and prayed the prayer of salvation with me would have only chalked up 25 points for a mainline Protestant. They didn’t realize they were really getting a 100 point “closet” atheist. And this could well have been a false conversion. However, my dramatic conversion had already occurred in secret, a few days before they arrived. Ignorant of fundagelical language, hesitant to share my deepest feelings, and yet wanting to please them, I went along with a more public “conversion”.
    The second thing I remembered today is a couple of “leaders, those who spoke to me the word of God” in the subsequent months, and I took a few minutes to “consider the outcome of their way of life” (Heb 13:7). I remembered how this couple, Michael and Miriam Adeney by name, had taken several of us students Christmas caroling. I may have been the only American, having stayed on campus into the Christmas break for some reason. International students usually could not afford to go home, and the Adeneys were like family to them. They managed the Christian bookstore for my sometime pastor, Jim Wilson (father of the more (in)famous Doug) and she was getting her PhD. Anyhow, this caroling and cocoa ended up a special experience of God’s love and grace. No pushing, no alternative motives, no instant gratification, no “discipling”. Just joy. I’m sure I’d never thought of this couple for over 35 years (in disobedience to scripture) until a few months ago. I looked them up online, where I would have been shocked NOT to find them, nor to find them still in Christian ministry. Sure enough, he runs a Christian bookstore near a university, and she’s a professor and writer, and they’ve ministered to people worldwide. She’s also been on the board of CBE (Christians for Biblical Equality). If you’ve been lucky enough to have a couple leaders like them in your life, you might remember to remember them! 🙂

  53. There are a couple of problems, as I see it.

    One is POWER. Many men in the “ministry” today are power hungry. They may (or may not) of started well, but are finishing poorly. Jesus spoke of these in Luke 12:45-46:

    “But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.” These fail to recognize that the Master is coming again and that there will be an accounting.

    The other problem is IGNORANCE. 2 Corinthians 11:20:

    “For you put up with it if one brings you into bondage, if one devours you, if one takes from you, if one exalts himself, if one strikes you on the face.”

    Christians, who do not know the Word, put up with all sorts of un-biblical behavior by their “pastors.” Many actually think that they are being “spiritual” in do so. Early on in my Christian life (almost 40) years ago, I was just as ignorant.

    Now ignorance can be fixed; but stupid is forever. We each have an obligation to search the Scriptures to see if these things are so. (Acts 17:11).

    Ignorance of the Scriptures have led many into bondage. Yet the paradox is while they are claiming to have been set free, they are again brought into bondage because they are not willing to search out the truth for themselves.

    When one does, and questions, he/she is labeled as “divisive” and many other things (the list, as you all know, is far too long to post here). Stories abound of Christians who have questioned their “pastors” and paid the price. And well we should for we follow the one who “…is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.” (Isaiah 53:3).

  54. What can the everyday disciple do? According to some leaders, what we CAN’T DO WITHOUT agreements, covenants, and waivers, is to be properly “discipled”. 🙁 Up to and including shunning. Anyone see the Hutterite show on TV this week where 2 mothers get shunned for sending their teenage sons to high school?

  55. they took it off — no surprise — and had a really “hip” logo designed that didn’t have the words church or anything in it.

  56. There are, without a doubt, serious relational issues within the Church stemming from hyperauthoritarian systems being substituted for genuine Christian love. Having experienced fade-away friendships within the church as well as outside of it, I think the lack of relational depth can be attributed to our general cultural shallowness as much as anything else.

    We are constantly bombarded by all manner of things that demand our attention, so we’ve learned to skim-read life just to survive. We don’t give ourselves the time to develop a deep understanding of anything. We’ve become a nation of dilettantes, even in friendship: we mistake our superficial knowledge of people, or theirs of us, for real relationships. We can usually maintain an active interest in people as long as they’re in our immediate field of vision, but once they – or we – are out of range, our focus shifts.

    Last December I left a ministry I loved to look after my husband who’d fallen ill and become disabled. I served in that ministry for nearly ten years and had known everyone in it even longer. We are still active members of the church and we see these folks every Sunday, but only one person has come up to us or called or written us to ask how we’re doing. We’re just out of range now.

  57. Jenny said; “Having experienced fade-away friendships within the church as well as outside of it, I think the lack of relational depth can be attributed to our general cultural shallowness as much as anything else.”

    Very sound explanation of what happens when you leave your church/ministry.

  58. My wife has a chronic illness which flared up last fall, and we greatly cut back our numerous church activities. 2 pastors continue to ask how we’re doing (’cause it’s their job?) but for most people, we’ve moved out of range, like you. It causes my wife not to even want to put in all the effort it takes to go, when she is feeling better. “Nobody really misses me, anyway,” is her feeling.

  59. Dave A A

    Sorry to hear about your wifes challenge with this “chronic illness.”
    Illness with a loved one is difficult – and a real test of ones faith and trust in God.
    I’m praying for you – and your wife. ❤❤

    Don’t know if you ever checked out this website or not.
    It might have something to help – Everything on it is free to use as you wish.
    Lots of stuff about healing – from the scriptures – gathered over the years.

    “Gods Words of Comfort & Healing”

    http://web.me.com/love101

    In my experience – Often – disease and illness – starts with a broken heart.

    ❤ When our heart is NOT at ease – it’s at – Dis-Ease…
    ❤ When our heart remains at – Dis-Ease – long enough…
    It often results in – Disease….

    Pro 17:22
    A merry heart doeth good like a medicine:
    but a broken spirit drieth the bones.

    And part of our immune system is in the marrow of the bones…
    The bones producing – red blood cells – white blood cells.
    Seems when our heart is NOT merry our immune sytem suffers.
    And Jesus came to heal the broken hearted. Luke 4:18 KJV,
    And Jesus took our infirmities, and bare our diseases. Mt 8:17

    Even when the cause of this illness – is NOT spiritual…
    NOT caused by a broken heart…once our broken heart is healed…
    Our immune system can work for us and NOT aginst us.
    And NOT many escape a broken heart.

    This might be a good place to start.
    When asking, seeking, knocking for healing… Mat 7:7.
    Start with the Heart. ❤
    Love is a healer. God is Love. God is our healer.

    http://web.me.com/love101/Love/Your_Heart_files/311%20Love%20is%20Rising.pdf

    Be Blessed in your search for truth… Jesus…

  60. The fact is that most people just don’t care. Life is all about them. I refuse to make excuse for these people because there is none. Whether it is inside the church or outside the church.

  61. Thanks, Amos.
    I’ve checked oit the site before, but perhaps skimming too much. This may be a good time to go through the Love is Rising article again, and with my wife.

  62. Dave A A, my heart goes out to you and your wife. I’m well acquainted with chronic illness. In my girlhood I cared for my mother who had severe multiple sclerosis, and now my husband has been disabled by yet another CNS disease. It is a blessed comfort to know that Christ is with us always, in our dark times as well as our bright ones. May you both find comfort and peace in the faithfulness of Jesus our Lord.

  63. Sadness at reading all these posts. Had a lady ask my husband and I to visit her church today- the first thing she said about it was “It is debt free” and “the pastor is great”.
    What I want to hear is “We really love the Lord Jesus at our church”. We have lost our first love – that is Jesus Christ.
    My husband and I now worship at home but we have come in contact with more unbelievers and we really love the chance to love them and be a witness. I am more confident now that the Lord brought us to this place to get us out of .the “Christian” bubble, so to speak

  64. Deb&Dee, you guys always seem to get my heart racing and my emotions swirling with the things you provide. This is another heart-breaking incident and it really is pretty sick.

    I think a lot of it is as Jenny said, we’ve got much of a very shallow culture. The fundigelicalism (as some are apt to call whatever it is) can only take root in such a consumeristic culture. This McLean Bible Church (I live in the area, never heard of it) is not counter-culture, it is most likely arch-conservative of the vapidness that we call the “good ol’ days”. Being bread and raised and partaker of this culture, uncritically, I still hack-up some fumes, I understand the quid-pro-quo of relationships, trying to get something out of it. I’m an ex-womanizer, so it is just so naturally American for me to do some of the friend-bartering.

    Eagle, you kill me with the chick fillet story, that’s totally garbage. I’ve probably done that before (leaving early because of something “more important”), but man, its always ugly.

    Keeps me humble (a word oft abused) about my own unloving selfishness.

    Here’s a good quote from a Calvinist (from me, a quasi(?) Calvinist):

    “Our salvation is not the business of Christ alone but the whole Godhead is interested in it deeply, so deeply, that you cannot say, who loves it most, or likes it most. The Father is the very fountain of it, his love is the spring of all — “God so loved the world that he hath sent his Son”. Christ hath not purchased that eternal love to us, but it is rather the gift of eternal love . . . Whoever thou be that wouldst flee to God for mercy, do it in confidence. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, are ready to welcome thee, all of one mind to shut out none, to cast out none. But to speak properly, it is but one love, one will, one council, and purpose in the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, for these Three are One, and not only agree in One, they are One, and what one loves and purposes, all love and purpose.” -Hugh Binning

    Pax et Amor!
    Cal

  65. Dave A A

    A lot of what I find myself doing these days is working with folks
    who have broken hearts. (Does anyone escape a broken heart?)

    And sickness and dis-ease – caused by a broken heart.

    I hang out at a large Barnes and Nobles that has two seating sections one with eight very soft easy chairs, the other with four chairs, and free wi-fi. It’s not to long before someone asks what I’m doing on the computer. Or they’re reading a book about the dis-ease they’re challenged with. And a conversation begins.

    If the person is challenged with a dis-ease I often ask… And this is a total stranger…
    “If the cause of this dis-ease is spiritual – What do you think it would be?”

    And – often – they know. 😉

    Here’s a simple rule of thumb for me when diagnosing spiritual causes of dis-ease…

    In my experience – The person challenged with the dis-ease is often…

    1 – Angry with God – Angry with another person – Angry with themselves.

    2 – NOT Forgiving God – NOT forgiving another – Not forgiving themselves.

    3 – NOT loving God – NOT loving another person – NOT loving themselves.

    Now, most “good” christians would never admit to being angry with God.
    But – often it is all three – with all three. 😉

    If you would like to talk off line my email is…

    lovefaith101@gmail.com

    A. Amos Love

  66. @ Lindsey: Hi Linday, I was so curious to find out about the church that has “partners” that I entered this query in Google :”life groups” partners NC church

    The very first link is for a church with four classes to take to become a “partner”. Google can be freaky accurate some days!