"Being sensible that I am unable to do anything without God's help, I do humbly entreat him by his grace to enable me to keep these Resolutions, so far as they are agreeable to his will, for Christ's sake. Remember to read over these Resolutions once a week."
Jonathan Edwards (Wikipedia)
Resolved, which began in 2005, is coming to an end one month from today after an eight year run. Perhaps there is just too much competition among the mega-events that cater to the Young Restless Reformed crowd (or more likely, it will probably be revamped and relocated). If Mark Driscoll's observation is indeed accurate – that the same faces show up at the same places (my words) – then these YRR groupies must be spending thousands of dollars (travel, lodging, food, and registration fees) to get that conference high.
It is interesting to reflect on what has transpired with the YRR crowd over the last decade. Of course, most of us hadn't heard the phase "young, restless, and reformed" until Collin Hansen's article appeared in Christianity Today. As I reflect back on my own spiritual journey over the last decade, I've come a long way by the grace of God. Ten years ago my family belonged to the same Southern Baptist church as Paige and Dorothy Patterson. In fact, we joined that church before the BFM2000 was embraced by the SBC, and I was fairly receptive to the direction in which the Southern Baptists were headed. They appeared to be pro-family, and I was all for that!
In the latter part of 2002, we became a part of an SBC church plant. The church launched at a venue in downtown Raleigh on September 3, 2003, with John MacArthur giving an inspiring message. During his visit to North Carolina, MacArthur addressed the students for two days at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary where Patterson was still president. A friend who moved from Scottsdale, Arizona to Raleigh was excited about MacArthur's visit because she had been involved in a sister church of Grace Community when she lived out west. She and I went to hear John MacArthur in chapel at SEBTS on September 3 (and of course, I heard him again that evening). While he was talking my friend leaned over and asked, "What do you think about the Calvinism / Arminian debate?" I responded with a puzzled look because I was unaware of any conflict. I knew very little about Calvinism for that matter. She bluntly said, "Well, you'd better start learning about it!"
Three years went by, and I was very busy with my 'roles' of wife, mother, and professional volunteer. I had neither the time nor the inclination to investigate this growing conflict between Calvinists and Arminians. Basically, my sentiments were – who cares? Then in the fall of 2006, Dee called and asked, "Have you gotten your Christianity Today yet? You really need to read the article called "Young, Restless, Reformed". It had just arrived in my mailbox, and I perused it with much puzzlement. The subtitle was "Calvinism is making a comeback and shaking up the church."
I still had little understanding of Calvinism, and the only names I recognized in the YRR article were Al Mohler (whom I had recently heard speak in chapel at SEBTS) and Mark Driscoll (a hipster pastor of a Seattle church with a strange name – Mars Hill). It was during this time that I picked up a little book being promoted at LifeWay called The Cross Centered Life by some guy named Mahaney. I'm convinced the only reason I bought it was because Al Mohler wrote the forward, and I respected him (at the time). I set it aside without reading it – out of sight, out of mind – and didn't come across it on my bookshelf until AFTER we began blogging (by that time I knew quite a bit about C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries). I was absolutely stunned to realize I had purchased this book. It must have been an impulse buy. Two years ago I finally read Mahaney's 'masterpiece' and wrote a two-part review.
Living The Cross Centered Life: A 'Deficient Gospel'
What's Wrong With Living The Cross Centered Life?
Now let's get back to the final Resolved conference. The featured speakers include: John MacArthur, Al Mohler, Steve Lawson, C.J. Mahaney, Rick Holland, Jonathan Rourke, and Austin Duncan. Here is a clip of John MacArthur promoting it.
As you may know, C.J. Mahaney has spoken at every single Resolved Conference. My question is why? Besides being the comic relief, could it be that he has played a major role in planning ALL of them? Now take a look at the Resolved 2012 Trailer.
Just who is being glorified in this video – God or men? The end of the trailer leaves me absolutely speechless. . .
Because Carolyn McCulley is the first woman ever to speak at the Resolved conference (she will be addressing women only), we have to wonder whether she has been behind the scene for all these years used her expertise to produce all of the promotional videos for the Resolved conferences.
In case you plan to attend Resolved 2012, the deadline to register is May 31, so get that $185 in fast! And if you've been wondering why it is called "Resolved", you can read this explanation on the website – What is Resolved?
By the way, the first of Jonathan Edwards' resolutions is as follows:
1. Resolved, that I will do whatsoever I think to be most to God's glory, and my own good, profit and pleasure, in the whole of my duration, without any consideration of the time, whether now, or never so many myriad's of ages hence. Resolved to do whatever I think to be my duty and most for the good and advantage of mankind in general. Resolved to do this, whatever difficulties I meet with, how many and how great soever.
You may want to check out Edwards' list of SEVENTY resolutions.
Here is what I have resolved – not to support these man glorifying endeavors. It will be interesting to see whether Resolved gets re-invented now that Rick Holland has left Grace Community Church and is pastoring at Mission Road Bible Church near Overland Park, Kansas. For a little background on this conference, his bio states: "In 2005 Rick founded the Resolved Conference, a ministry that calls a new generation to live lives of serious devotion to Jesus Christ." Furthermore, Rick received his D.Min. from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, so there's your Mohler / Mahaney connection.
The more I have learned about the YRR movement and the incredible self-promotion that has occurred, the more I long for Jesus Christ.
As Anne Graham Lotz so aptly put it at her FREE events: "Just Give Me Jesus". She helped put Fernando Ortega in the spotlight with his beautiful song "Give Me Jesus", and now he will be appearing at the 2012 National Conference (Desiring God) along with John Piper, Kevin DeYoung, Carolyn McCulley, Russell Moore, and others. 🙁 It just goes on and on and on . . .
Lydia's Corner: Daniel 5:1-31 2 Peter 2:1-22 Psalm 119:113-128 Proverbs 28:19-20
WHAT THE HECK? That Resolved video is insane. Why are rays of heavenly light shining down on speakers like they are messiahs? And as you say, the ending is jaw-dropping, those words were meant to be directed towards God, not a man. Can they not see the extreme level of narcissism reflected here? I’m just flabbergasted. Thank you for posting the beautiful song at the end of this post to redirect my thoughts to the Lord that I love so that I would not spend the rest of my day fuming.
deb
You ask…
“Just who is being glorified in this video – God or men?”
Well, Jesus did say…
I receive NOT honor from men…
How can you believe who receive honor – one of another… John 5:41-44. KJV
If I honour myself, my honour is *nothing*… John 8:54 KJV
And Jesus also said…
And I seek not mine own glory… John 8:50 KJV
He that speaks of himself seeks his own glory… John 7:18 KJV
Seems we don’t need a whole lot of spritual discernment
to figure this out. 😉
If it lifts up man – It’s probably a lie…
If it’s lifts up Jesus – It’s probably the truth…
Aubrietta
They are, without a doubt, believing their own press.
I've been reading the articles from The Wartburg Watch for quite some time now, and it has kept me both entertained and wary of some of the pitfalls of the neo-reformed movement (of which I am keeping myself at arm's length). That said, I am someone who attends MacArthur's church and has attended Resolved in the past. Make no mistake, I am not necessarily defending the conference. However, I can barely recall hearing that the video for the Resolved conference was done by someone in the college ministry, and not Carolyn McCulley (whom I admit, I don't know who she is). If you would like, I can try to find out more information about the origins of the promotional video ^_^
WOW!!! – 70 new laws for me to live by.
Thanks – Never knew about – Edwards’ list of SEVENTY resolutions.
And it’s recommended we read them once a week. Oy Vey!!! 71 new laws…
“The Resolutions of Jonathan Edwards.”
Is it just me – Or, is this – 70 new laws we can’t live up to? 😉
Seems Jesus rebuked the Religious Leaders for laying heavy burdens on mens shoulders
and doing nothing to lift them off.
Yup – Sounds like the “Resolved Conference” is commited – hell-bent – to follow the law.
And lay some heavy burdens on those coming to the conference.
Yup – We often get what we ask for – “And A Little Bit Extra.”
God is cool – I checked the dictionary for “Resolved” found “hell-bent” in the Thesaurus. 🙂
—————-
Simply Amazing – In these 70 resoulutions – It’s ALL about Edwards. It’s ALL about him.
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/ipb-e/epl-10/web/edwards-resolutions.html
Edwards writes “I” about a hundred times. And Jesus is only mentioned once. ;-(
Seems Edwards, and the Calvinistas, want you focused on what you can do.
What a bunch of “balderdash.” (No, really, this is “balderdash.”)
Always wanted to use that word – balderdash – senseless talk or writing; nonsense…
I thank Jesus I was “A sinner in the hands of a “Loving God.”
“I” must decrease – He must increase… 😉
A. Amos Love,
Excellent comment! I’m so glad that we can continue the discussion.
Somehow I don’t think the people organizing Resolved are personally legalists and want to add Edwards’ resolutions as a mandatory part of believers’ lives. I really don’t think any of those speakers would condemn someone as a non-believer if they didn’t ritualistically abide by those 70 resolutions. Being a little more charitable might be helpful.
The Calvinists put so much emphasis on men of the past. Like they are somehow all knowing of scripture.
Noah,
Thanks for your comment. Sorry for the technical difficulties which delayed a response. Carolyn McCulley is involved with SGM and has done videography for them over the years. I would be curious about who was responsible for the Resolved trailers in 2009 and this year.
A. Amos Love, that was a great comment. I couldn’t even click over to see those 70 – I mean, 71 – resolutions. Too depressing.
BTW, I’m so glad to be back at the castle! Hooray!
Thank you GBTC, Dee and Deb. I am happy to see TWW back online.
The first time I watched the trailer I was very tired. The ending reminded me of the Harry Potter trailers which strive to give you that “epic” feeling. Now watching it a second time, I laughed SO much. It’s hilariously over-dramatic. You’d really have to hold these men up on a pedestal in order to not find the videographical exaltation funny and ridiculous.
Before you rip Edwards’ Resolutions, first take the time to understand them in their historical context. In reflecting on his life, he suggested he made those before he was genuinely converted.
Also, they are personal! He never claimed others should follow them. If any of you drew up a list of personal commitments and someone ripped you for them I doubt this blog would respond kindly.
I am part of the YRR, am in seminary (not Southern) and am being trained to be a pastor in a church that belongs to one of “networks that shall not be named”. 😉 But I read this blog often. I think you are right in some of what you say, so I read this blog to keep perspective.
I spent some time in an IFB church, so I know what church abuse is (when I was 17, my mom and my younger brother and I were disfellowshipped for questioning the King James only belief).
However, your pokes at Edwards are misinformed and knee jerk. You don’t do yourselves any service by making such ignorant comments.
CJH
Could it be that the concerns expressed about Edwards’ resolutions are not misinformed but merely another side to the story that, when looked at as a whole, will give a better picture?
CJH,
I hear what you’re saying. Yes, Edwards wrote out his resolutions for personal consumption. Perhaps what some have a problem with (including myself) is that Christian leaders appear to be idolizing those resolutions and maybe even Edwards himself. That takes me right back to the conclusion of my post – Just Give Me Jesus. I do hope that Jesus Christ (the name that Mahaney finds such difficulty in uttering) is indeed the focus of the last Resolved conference.
Finally, I am honored that you are reading our blog, and I mean that sincerely. I hope you will continue to comment because we learn an awful lot from those who chime in. One of our faithful commenters sent us an e-mail a few weeks ago and said that he enjoys the comment threads here at TWW as much, if not more, than the posts.
Blessings!
Dee, which concerns specifically? That the Resolutions are being given an exalted status or the Resolutions themselves? If you are speaking of, as Deb pointed, the appearance idolizing them and Edwards, then I think your (and Deb’s) point is a valid concern.
I am a big fan of Edwards (he’s my favorite theologian); I resonate with the way he thinks, but I will also freely admit that I need to sometimes check myself that I am thinking biblically about things and not merely Edwardian. I think you rightly point out the propensity to man worship in the YRR. You should hear my wife go off on this issue and she’s in the camp!
At the same time, I would caution you all to be careful not to blithely dismiss certain theologians and doctrinal positions (not saying you do as a matter of practice, but have noticed little moments of it from time to time. ;)). I think understanding the Resolutions in their proper context would prevent comments like A Amos’. The Reformed tradition is much more robust, diverse, and nuanced than this “new” articulation of it that you critique. Simply put, I’m just calling for you to think through things historically as well. I think it will make your critiques sharper and more helpful.
CJH
But never forget that even our most favorite theologians are merely men who can make some serious mistakes. Jesus was the only “theologian” who had it down pat.
Sorry…I’m tying to post using my smart phone…
As I was saying, I admit I need to sometimes check myself that I am thinking biblically about things and not merely Edwardsian. I think you rightly point out the propensity to man worship in the YRR. You should hear my wife go off on this issue and she’s in the camp!
At the same time, I would caution you all to be careful not to blithely dismiss certain theologians and doctrinal positions (not saying you do as a matter of practice, but have noticed little moments of it from time to time. ;)). I think understanding the Resolutions in their proper context would prevent comments like A Amos’. The Reformed tradition is much more robust, diverse, and nuanced than this “new” articulation of it that you critique. Simply put, I’m just calling for you to think through things historically as well. I think it will make your critiques sharper and more helpful.
Re: historical context. You reminded me of Ben Franklin and his 13 virtues, including #4:
“4. Resolution: Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve.”
Maybe such self-help lists were commonly drawn up by other colonials as well.
Dave A A
I suspect that you’re right. I highly doubt these guys ever thought their resolutions would be read by so many others.
CJH
Did you know that I developed and taught a 2 1/2 year course on church history in two churches? I spent 6 months on the Reformation alone. I also taught through Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology (yep-the big one). I have read quite a bit on Reformed thinking by guys that would have your “seal of approval.”
I believe it is a mistake for some to assume that, if one only studied the real Reformers, then one would become Reformed because it is the only obviously correct doctrinal position.There are wonderful, Godly theologians that would heartily disagree with Reformed thinking. I do not subscribe to either Reformed or Arminian theology exclusively. I believe that it is a difficult combination of both perspectives. In fact, it is so difficult that we might not even fully understand it when we are in heaven, since, even then, we will still be the created and He is still the Creator-far above us for all eternity.
Finally, as for A Amos’ comments, I think it is important that you see how Reformed thinking is perceived by others outside the tight circle of doctrinal agreement. If the doctrine is conveyed so well by Calvinists, then why have the newest statistics shown that there has been no rise in the numbers who confess Calvinism in the last 10 years. Somehow, its proponents are not winning the hearts and minds of the people. And they are not all simply “uninformed.”
Dee,
I couldn’t agree more! But I don’t think the Resolutions themselves, when understood in their context, need to be cautioned against in the way they were. How they are being used in the conference, that I think you have a case for.
In fact, it’s a bit crazy. I mean, seriously, nobody but an 18th century Puritan has that kind of discipline or even the desire to be that disciplined! 😉 It’s like thinking I need to go shoot 5,000 jump shots a day because I heard Michael Jordan did it.
CJH
Ah, but Calvin thought it important to dictate the number of courses that could be served at a correct dinner.
Dee,
I think you may be misunderstanding my point. I’m not arguing that a study of history will convince someone of the truth of Reformed doctrine. My point is that a knowledge of history will help us all avoid sweeping judgments of individuals’ doctrinal beliefs (both Reformed and other). I actually think a lack of historical understanding is a big problem within the YRR movement. It leads them to assert one size fits all application of doctrine (which you often highlight) and make dumb accusations about who is and isn’t “Reformed”.
My point is not about convincing, its about charitably representing people’s beliefs.
And I am very aware how the Reformed world looks to outsiders. I’ve been a Christian for 18 years and only in the last 5 have I embraced Reformed theology.
CJH
If your church is affiliated with Acts 29, can I ask you your opinion on their SOF that claims that only those who consciously acknowledge Jesus Christ can be saved? There is a serious problem with that wording since it would appear to leave out babies and severely handicapped people. How do the reformers that you admire, such as Edwards, deal with this issue?
Eating is the last thing I would ever listen to Calvin about. That and facial hair. 😉
I’ve actually been pondering the question of how much one has to agree with Calvin to properly call oneself a Calvinist. But that’s just me being scholastic. 😉
CJH
I have studied church history extensively; yet you claim that I still make sweeping judgements. So, what in the world is wrong with me? Also, as for your awareness of how the Calvinists look to the outside world, you may think you know because you were once afflicted in that fashion. However, it appears to me that you may have forgotten just a wee bit because you are irritated by those who comment in a fashion which, to you, shows their supposed ignorance. Instead, it might be wise to contemplate why Reformed theology has not claimed the hearts and minds of all those who study, and then reject, pure Reformed thinking.
Think of how this might come across. “I was once like you but I am now Reformed. You all need to study history more so that you will fully understand why I am the way that I am.” It sounds a bit too much like “I once was lost, but now am found.” I have been a Christian for a lot longer than you and am still not Reformed and that is not due to any lack of study.
Then, how do we get along? I predict that there is a schism in the making within the SBC, if not now, in the near future. We have to begin to wonder when our devotion to theological purity (beyond the basics found in the creeds)trumps our ability to get along with those who are committed Christians on the other side of the Reformed line in the sand.
Dee,
It is not (which means you can probably guess which one it is affiliated with :))
From what I understand of that clause in their SOF, it is addressing the postmodern notion that one can be saved apart from Christ through following other religions. It is a counter to the idea that I can “unconsciously” follow Christ by following another religion (C.S. Lewis argues for such a position in “The Last Battle,” where a character is actually following Aslan even though he is serving another lord). Now, I could be wrong, but I believe that is what is at issue.
Edwards held the same view as Calvin on this issue. For my own part, I am wrestling through what they have to say (which isn’t as extreme as some want to make it) and the view espoused by John MacArthur, which I have held to my entire Christian life.
CJH
I assumed that is what they meant. However, why didn’t they state it correctly? So, do you reject Lewis because of his view on the soldier of Tash? And can one be a Christian and believe that a man raised in remote China in the 5th century might be judged on the light that he had available to him in that situation? Note my question-can one be a christian and believe that?
“Edwardian”. CJH, you took the word right out of my mouth. I don’t think Edwards would have desired that there be an Edwardian movement some 250 years later. (Npr Luther, Wesley etc denominations named for them).
Let me explain how this Edwardianism might impact someone. My hope is that you’ll keep this in mind when you become a pastor. Imagine a man who’s no longer Y, not feeling particularly R, and who feels he has far yet to go before he could call himself R. He’s loved Jesus Christ for close to 40 years, and long ago studied Calvinism amongst other isms. He’d read several things by Edwards, and liked and profited from some of them. But in no church or group were Calvinism and Edwardianism primary topics– until he happened to join a YRR church a few years back. “I’m not too comfortable with the Calvinism, but there are lots of other great things about this church,” he may have thought. Now imagine an persistent increase in Edwardianism. Edwards and other Puritans are quoted in nearly every sermon and class. A couple weeks back the sermon has 2 very lengthy Edwards quotes. He may have
Apologies for early post..
He may have thought, Enough Already! I…Don’t…Think…I…Can…Take…Any…More…
But to say this would be pointless and stir up trouble– so he holds his peace.
You may have someone like this in your church in the future, perhaps…
Well, time to go to small group now, where we’ve been encouraged to “pray like Puritans” tonight. Or maybe it’s not worth it.
Dee,
I think you have spent too much time fighting with Reformed people, because it seems you are attributing implications to what I am saying that I am not intending at all! I am not trying to be combatitive about this, so let me try clarify what I am saying.
I believe the treatment of the Resolutions in this post and more specifically in the comment made by A. Amos was a sweeping judgment. If you think I am wrong, then I would love to dialogue with you about the history of the Resolutions. Having said that, I’ve read this blog long enough to know that you and Deb are thoughtful thinkers and writers, so I was not making an indictment of your overall knowledge. I was offering pushback, and my next point was that your critiques of the new Reformed movement will be sharper and more helpful if you avoid such statments.
Notice that I also pointed out that I believe this is more of a problem within the new Reformed movement, and a lot of what you critique is a result of this. I get annoyed by anyone, Calvinist, Arminian, Pelagian, SBC, SGM, A29, Presbyterian, etc., etc. that make sweeping judgments about people and movements that history proves otherwise. I want charitable debate. Both sides are guilty. I am guilty of it too. I’m not saying one side has a monoply on using history correctly.
I have my thoughts about why Reformed theology isn’t winning the hearts and minds of individuals but I don’t think it has anything to do with historical ignorance. Again, my point is being charitable about the other position, not about the usefulness of history in convincing someone of a belief. (BTW, I think the question of why Reformed theology isn’t winning the hearts and minds of individuals would make a great topic for you to post on)
I never said studying history will convince someone of being Reformed. That’s not what convinced me! I don’t even think I implied that. Pointing out a sweeping generalization about a Reformed theologian does not equal “if you properly understand him like I do you would become Reformed.” The Resolutions are hardly any sort of apologetic for Reformed theology.
Your comment about getting along is a bit humerous to me considering how much you’ve read into what I’ve said. To be blunt, you don’t know me nor how I relate to those who are not Reformed. It seems you have assumed something about me based on my affiliation (which is why I made the comment that you may be a bit hostile from so much fighting with Reformed folk). Several of my closest friends are not Reformed. The seminary professor that has most shaped my thinking is a thoroughly Reformed guy that has served as an elder at several non-Reformed churches. He has taught me a lot about not being tribal but rather holding out with love the best of what the Reformed tradition has to offer. As such, I am praying about the possibility of going on staff at a church that isn’t Reformed (yes, they know I am, yes they still want me to consider, and yes I would put unity above my own theological camp).
So please, do not assume that I am trying to use my point about historical accuracy as a means to paint Reformed theology as better. I would say (and have said) the exact types of things to Reformed friends.
DaveAA
Having grown up in Salem, Massachusetts, there were some Puritans praying that the witches would leave them alone, praying that the witches would be put to death and praying that the witches would die so they could acquire their property.(Some of them also prayed that people would not find out that the witches were not really witches os they could grab their stuff). We can learn some from the Puritans but we need to be very careful about how they applied their theology. My former hometown gets a whole boatload of tourists bucks off of the Puritans, their superstitions and their land grabs.
CJH
Communicating on a blog is far different than speaking face to face. You said “your critiques of the new Reformed movement will be sharper and more helpful if you avoid such statements.” I have to admit I smiled when I read this. There is no argument under the sun that will make a dent in the armor around the Calvinistas. They know they are right, they have “proof,” and the rest of us are wrong. This blog will not change the thinking of a Calvinista but it may help those who have been on the receiving end of their certainty.
” To be blunt, you don’t know me nor how I relate to those who are not Reformed.” You are 100% correct. I do not know you just as you do not know me. That is the drawback to blogging.I am not hostile, just reading what you have written and trying to feed back to you what it might mean to you.
I don’t know why they worded the SOF the way they did. I completely disagree with Lewis on that point, but I don’t write him off as a Christian or as a useful thinker. I quite like Lewis. Yes, a person can be a Christian and hold to that belief. I think they are wrong, but that in no way disqualifies them from being a Christian. To those that would disagree with me, I would say look at what Paul says in Corinthians. There were believers in Corinth that still believed in multiple gods. They had not matured in their faith, yet Paul still acknowledges them as believers (he did call them “weaker” though :))
CJH
If they disagree that total conscious choice is necessary in every person who is saved, then the statement is theologically in error and should be removed.But, then again, we had a man comment a few weeks back who is a true Calvinista. He said he has mentally handicapped children and does not know if they will be in heaven.So sad.
Dee,
You wrote: “There is no argument under the sun that will make a dent in the armor around the Calvinistas. They know they are right, they have ‘proof,’ and the rest of us are wrong.”
You are probably right; however, does that justify historically inaccurate statements? You should still want to make valid and cogent arguments. Pure rhetoric has its place, but its effectiveness is limited. You may not ever change a Calvinista’s mind, but you become a much better critic and dialogue partner if you avoid these errors. Maybe I am thinking too academically about this, but it seems to me you will improve your credibility (at least in the mind of reasonable Calvinists :)) if you avoid (or at least limit) overstatment.
You also wrote: “This blog will not change the thinking of a Calvinista but it may help those who have been on the receiving end of their certainty.”
But don’t you think you better serve those “on the receiving end” by giving them solid argument and data rather than rhetoric and overstatment?
CJH
You write – Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 05:23 PM…
“Before you rip Edwards’ Resolutions, first take the time to understand them in their historical context. In reflecting on his life, he suggested he made those before he was **genuinely converted.**”
Thanks for the info about Edwards…
Seems I did make some “ignorant comments” about Edwards and his 70 Resolutions.
I did NOT know he conceived them before he was “genuinely converted.”
But – Doesn’t that mean Edwards was dead in his trespasses and sins… Eph 2:1-8.
NOT a genuine believer… NOT a genuine Christian… When he designed them?
Was he trying to make himself righteous, “do” good things, by the works of the law? – His law?
Maybe you, (“I am part of the YRR,”) would like to explain why those YRR guys, who started Resolved in 2005, would pattern it after “Resolutions” made by someone NOT “genuinely converted” and want to lay these 70 heavy burdens on someones shoulders?
Causing believers to focus on themselves? And NOT focus on Jesus.
Here are their words – about the Resolved Conference. http://www.resolved.org/about/
_______
So he (Edwards) sat down with a quill and paper and wrote out a series of commitments. These were simple statements, conclusions, and commitments forged in the immensity of God and the trauma of His holiness. All of them began with the same word—”Resolved”.
The Resolved conference is a call for a new generation to live with the same resolve.
———–
Seems to me these conference guys think Edwards 70 Resolutions are important…
So “you” can live with the same “Resolve” as Edwards. Who was – NOT “genuinely converted.”
Hmmm? Why are these YRR guys using stuff from a guy – NOT “genuinely converted?”
NO thanks – tried living by the law – God’s Law – My Law – Ouch!!! 🙁
NO thanks – tried living by the standards of – “mere fallible humans.” Double Ouch!!! 🙁
Think I’ll stick with Jesus. Think I’ll live by the faith of the Son of God. 🙂
…the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God,
who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:20
*My people* hath been *lost sheep:*
**their shepherds** have caused them **to go astray,**
Jer 50:6
CJH
You continue to say things that, were I a lesser woman, would cause me to smack you upside the head, NCIS style. This, for example “solid argument and data rather than rhetoric and overstatement?” Explain my (or Deb’s) amorphous arguments and data in their specifics along with concrete examples of overstatement and rhetoric. Could it be that much of what we say is just irritating as opposed to “overstatement?”
deb and dee and CJH
I really enjoyed, and appreciated, you’re respectful conversation.
Amen…
“But never forget that even our most favorite theologians are merely men who can make some serious mistakes. Jesus was the only “theologian” who had it down pat.”
Jesus, the Bible, warns us, again and again, about NOT trusting in man. Mere Fallible Humans.
But be not ye called Rabbi:
for “ONE” is your teacher, and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:8
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall **hear MY voice;**
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice – One Teacher
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
dee
Nope – NO “rhetoric and overstatement” on your part. 🙂
When those…
Who have NOT a reasonable answer to what you’re saying…
When they have NO “Biblical” response…
When their point of view runs out of steam…
And you are beginning to convice them…
Or at least create doubt in the position they have been taught…
They have to change the subject…
Because they have run out of ammunition – Bible verses…
Run out of “Mere Fallible Humans” – theologians – to quote…
They have to change the subject…
Now “the Subject” becomes “you” and the way “you” say it.
Had to learn this the hard way… 😉
Now I know – When they start to attack me…
When the – oh so very polite – attack becomes…
NOT what I say – but – “How I say it.”
When accused of making
“sweeping judgments” and “ignorant comments.”
The battle is over… 😉
They are actually giving up the debate…
By departing from the topic at hand…
They have to discredit someone…
They can’t discredit what is said…
The 70 Resoulutions by Edwards – Are 70 new laws…
Commitments, vows, that can NOT be obeyed…
Heavy weights put on shoulders… To cause despair and hoplessnes…
For those who make this commitment – this vow…
To obey these laws…
Anyone remember someone called Herod Agrippa?
“THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!
THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!”
Dee,
The treatment of Edwards’ Resolutions in the post, which was implicit, and the affirmation of A. Amos’ criticism of them are two examples of using rhetoric and overstatement (or affirming rhetoric and overstatement). If you want to argue that these are both warranted, fine; but you are going to need to construct a much more precise, historically situated argument.
Does that satisfy your inner NCIS agent? 🙂
CJH
This blog dos not exist to merely express out point of view. We allow others to feel us what they think. The church today has a knack for talking past one another. I want to hear what others are say. “Seek first to understand.”
Also, be careful with the word implicit. I got burned on a few essays by assuming the implicit.
“You are going to need to construct a much more precise, historically situated argument.” Thank you for your advice.
CJH,
How do you answer Amos’ questions from 12:09?
Or to go back to my Ben Franklin reference yesterday, IF (and I’ll take your word or that of Edwards himself for it) Edwards’ resolutions came before he was converted, then we ought as well to base conferences upon them as we would those of Franklin. Or as we might if someone unearths Saul of Taursus resolutions from pre-Damascus-road days.
Hi A. Amos,
So I went back and read some more on the Resolutions. It appears that most of them were written AFTER his conversion, so I was incorrect in my previous assertion. However, the first of them date to about a year after he dates his conversion, which has led some scholars to believe that some of the Resolutions may have been conceived before his actual conversion.
After reading some articles though, I think I side with those who said they came after his conversion. So I correct my specific point. I was in wrong in that statement. However, I stand by my original argument that they need to be understood in their proper historical context.
When he wrote them, he was 18 going on 19 and facing a very uncertain point in his life. He was away from home in a much bigger city and about to become a pastor. He had received the best education you could get in the colonies, yet he knew he needed to go deeper into his devotion to God. I would actually encourage you to read them (if you haven’t already). They are hardly legalistic rules. Furthermore, look at the preface that Deb cites: he knew he had to rely on God’s grace for all of it! The Resolutions are not a legalistic list meant to bind a man’s conscience; they are a commitment of a young man wanting to grow in his walk with God.
Why the conference uses them, I am guessing that they are identifying with the impulse to commit oneself to God. The idea of being Resolved speaks to a firmness of faith and enduring commitment. Is this a bad thing? To borrow a title from Richard Foster’s book (I know most Reformed people poo poo him), why not celebrate discipline?
And that is one of the things I appreciate about this blog. And now that I have decided to comment I don’t intend to be the “history police.” Please call me on it if I start to come across that way.
But I do think history can help us be more charitable, hence, my point.
Hi Dave,
See my comment at 2:21 (it’s down the thread). I was wrong in my earlier statement; they were written down after his conversion. I thought he wrote them while in college. He wrote them after.
However, I still stand by my original assertion that they were treated a bit unfairly.
CJH
Please remember that I have developed a course and taught church history extensively. I also grew up in Salem, Massachusetts. The museums there allowed students of the local schools to visit for free. Much to the dismay of the museum guards, I spent my Saturdays playing hide and seek with my friends in the Essex Museum. I had a wonderful hiding place in a mock up of a ship captain’s room. The door was difficult to find.
I love history. My take away point from all of this is simple. Men are sinners. They tend to get going on certain trends in thinking and because of their insecurity, demand (in word or attitude) that everyone agree with them. If others challenge them, they do things like start new religions or persecutions or cults.They also use faith to get something (Like some of the Puritans who used the witch fiasco as a land grab).
That is why I look at “au courant” theology with a jaundiced eye.Just two decade ago it was pre mil, pretrib eschatology complete with predictions of the Second Coming. Right now, it is Neo-Calvinism followed closely by the Young Earth thing. In my opinion, the NeoCals will have their day and it will fade away with the next great thing to come along. I do wish it would become trendy amongst Christians to focus on unity in diversity.Unfortunately, there are far too many fragile egos for such to work.
CJH
Thanks for the update on Edwards and that his 70 Resolutions were AFTER his conversion.
Also appreciate your comment to Dave when you said…
“I still stand by my original assertion that they were treated a bit unfairly.”
“a bit unfairly” does NOT sound like “rhetoric and overstatement“ – to me.
And – the benefit, or downside, of these 70 Resolutions, is still open for discussion. 😉
Sounds like you have a different opinion based on your knowledge of Edwards…
“they are personal! He never claimed others should follow them.”
I’m not that familiar with Edwards and you could be correct – But – Today, the YRR crowd
“Is” asking folks to take these 70 Resolutions to heart… And make a similar “Commitment.”
“The Resolved conference is a call for a new generation to live with **the same** resolve.”
YRR is making them known, important, and named the “Resolved” conference because of them.
I do have some strong opinions that seem to differ with yours. 😉
I’ll try to explain a little in the next comment.
{{{{{{ JUST GIVE ME JESUS }}}}}}}
CJH
In your first comment – Wed Jun 06, 2012 at 05:23 PM, You ended with…
“your pokes at Edwards are misinformed and knee jerk.”
Well maybe – But – I have experience with Authoritarian Leadership and their heavy weights.
And when someone attempts to put “their Law” on me – my knee-jerk reaction is to kick free. 😉
I left “The Abusive Religious System” in the early 90’s thru much pain, tears, and “Abuse.”
By those who said they were shepherds, my “Spiritual Authority,” my leaders, my pastors,
who I was to obey, because they cared for my soul. These special ones, this Clergy Class,
taught me salvation, eternal life, was a free gift from God. BUT – Once I joined their group,
there were all these rules, regulations and laws I had to abide by or I was NO longer welcome.
There was “Liberty in Jesus” But – NO liberty with the Clergy. It was My way or the highway.
I now see much “Spiritual Abuse” with the YRR crowd. Yes – you’re saved by Grace – But…
NOW you have to join a local church – submit to the pastors and elders – whether they are correct or NOT – apply for “church membership,” so you can be subject to “church discipline,” and you can NOW give money to God by giving your money to a 501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporation. 😉
And the list goes on, and on, and on…. Law, upon law, upon law… And most can’t even see it.
Most of the “special clergy class” believe these “laws” are for the good of the believer…
Just like the YRR crowd think Edwards 70 Resolutions are good for the believer – BUT –
They become heavy weights on shoulders that NO one can obey… at least, NOT for long…
And these 70 Resolutions get you focused on self – and NOT on Jesus.
IMO – that is the biggest crime, failure, with the law – trying to obey any law or Resolution
We become like Him, Jesus – When we see Jesus as he is. 1 John 3:2
NOT When We – stop sinning- Or do everything correct. We’re asked to see Jesus – NOT see self.
When you believe the lie you start to die…
I now understand these 70 Resolutions as Edwards trying to be made perfect by the flesh.
And the YRR guys, with “their Rules,” and the 70 Resolutions, are also trying to see their flesh,
and the flesh of “Their Followers,” being made perfect by the flesh. And NOT trusting the Spirit.
IMO – Edwards, the YRR crowd, have been bewitched – Trying to be made perfect by the flesh.
Gal 3:1-6…
IMO – In the YRR, and “the Abusive Religious System” there is much bondage. – 2 Pet 2:19.
In Jesus there is “Liberty.” – 2 Cor 3:17, Gal 2:4, Gal 5:1,
{{{{{{ JUST GIVE ME JESUS }}}}}}}
Dee and Deb, The Resolved Conference is next week. Will you guys be letting us know what they talked about?
Stormy,
I will probably do a post hitting the highlights. After all, it’s the last one (yeah, right!) Anyone care to speculate what the “Next” one will be called?
Summer should be a slow time, and in the next week or two there is the SBC meeting in New Orleans, the Here is Our God conference, and Resolved. So much to cover – so little time! 🙄
@ A. Amos Love:
I don’t think it’s quite fair to see Edwards’ resolutions as a burden placed on others. They were entirely personal resolutions for his own thinking about living a holy and useful life to God’s glory. There is no evidence he preached them or expected others to use them. He never claimed “This is the way.” If you don’t like them, don’t follow them. Some take inspiration from his dedication.
Wayne
You could be correct about Edwards – And the 70 Resoulutions – “were entirely personal resolutions for his own thinking about living a holy and useful life to God’s glory.”
But – some how – the Resolved gang – found them – made them public – And are asking others
to read them – acknowlege them – And live by them.
Sounds like living under a new law to me. And I’m No longr under the Law. Rom 6:14.
And Edwards might have been “Bewitched” like the foolish Galations …
Trying to be made perfect by the flesh. Gal 3:1-5.
And – When I read those Resoulutions – They are all about what Edwards is “Resolved” to do.
NO mention of Jesus – And it causes unsuspecting folks to focus on self – NOT focus on Jesus.
When you believe the lie you start to die…
Here are their words – about the Resolved Conference. http://www.resolved.org/about/
_______
So he (Edwards) sat down with a quill and paper and wrote out a series of commitments. These were simple statements, conclusions, and commitments forged in the immensity of God and the trauma of His holiness. All of them began with the same word—”Resolved”.
The Resolved conference is a call for a new generation to live with the same resolve.
———–
Maybe you can mention to the “Resolved” confrence that these are personal resolutions
NOT meant for the general population.
Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus…