"God has given Christianity a masculine feel. And being God, a God of love, He has done that for our maximum flourishing both male and female."
John Piper speaking at the 2012 Desiring God Pastors Conference
Theme: "God, Manhood & Ministry Conference – Building Men for the Body of Christ"
These are the only kind of boxers we like (link)
In case you haven't noticed, MASCULINE CHRISTIANITY is sweeping through conservative evangelical churches like a firestorm. It has been gaining momentum in recent years, with Mark Driscoll providing the spark. Now John Piper has thrown gasoline on the fire and it's burning out of control!
Is this God's plan for the man? You be the judge…
First, let's take a look at how masculine Christianity is manifesting itself at a church in my native state of North Carolina. Egads!
WARNING: Highly Offensive Language!
Yes, you heard that right. Here are the exact words of Pastor Sean Harris:
“So your little son starts acting a little girlish when he's four years old and instead of squashing that like a cockroach and saying, ‘Man up, son, get that dress off you and get outside and dig a ditch cause that's what boys do,’ you get out the camera and you start taking pictures of Johnny acting like a female and then you upload it to YouTube and everybody laughs about it and next thing you know, this dude, this kid is acting out childhood fantasies that should have been squashed! Can I make it any clearer? Dads, the second you see your son dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist! Man up. Give him a good punch. OK? You're not going to act like that. You were made by God to be a male and you're gonna be a male. And when your daughter starts acting too butch, you rein her in. And you say oh no! Oh no, sweetheart. You can play sports. Play 'em. Play 'em to to the glory of God, but sometimes you're gonna act like a girl and walk like a girl, talk like a girl, and smell like a girl, and that means you're gonna be beautiful, you're gonna be attractive, you're gonna dress yourself up. You say, 'Can I take charge like this as a parent?' Yeah, you can. You're authorized. I just gave you a special dispensation this morning to do that.”
The only thing remotely funny about this situation is that instead of uploading effeminate pictures or videos of "Johnny" onto the internet, someone took this pastor's advice and uploaded a video of his rant on YouTube.
One of our astute commenters, Sergius Martin-George, alerted us that Pastor Sean Harris has gone on record in recent days with an explanation for the above commentary, which you can listen to here. He has publicly apologized and regrets his offensive words which he wishes he could take back. What a great teaching moment for other pastors! The internet is a powerful tool, and pastors need to be extremely careful with what they say or they may be apologizing just like Pastor Sean Harris.
Perhaps Pastor Harris has been reading Dr. Cliff Self's book MAN UP. These guys are so original… Can you believe there is such a thing as Manupministries? Here is some information at that website:
"What does it mean to Man UP and release the champion in you? To MAN UP means to be all the man I was created to be. When I MAN UP, I tap into all the power of manhood. I release the champion in me and accomplish supernatural results. How did I get to be a man? Do I qualify as a real man, or do I fall short? How do you Man UP and get the power and wisdom needed for manhood? How do you handle life as a real man? We must make the Man UP discovery. So, buy the book, listen to the podcasts, give us your feedback and discover the champion in you!"
A cottage industry is being built on this newfangled idea of "Masculine Christianity". Not only do we have John Piper to thank, but we believe this man (featured below) is primarily responsible for copycat ministries that bring out the macho in men.
Here are Mark Driscoll's exact words:
"And I don't think there's anything purer than two guys in a cage – no balls, no sticks, no bats, no help, no team – and just see which man is better. And as a pastor and as a Bible teacher, I think that God made men masculine; he made humanity male and female; and uh men and women are different, not that one is good and the other's bad, that's why I married a woman, I'm very glad to be married to her. Um, but I think men are made for combat, men are made for conflict, men are made for dominion. And it doesn't matter what you do to a bunch of guys. I mean you can put 'em in the wost public high school and tell 'em that they just need to just you know be into their feelings and talk about their feelings and cry a lot and finger paint their inner life, and the end of the day they're still gonna wanna thrown down and when they go to recess two guys are gonna go at it and see which one is the dude, and that's just the way men are made. So we either allow that in a way that is violence and inappropriate, which is what a lot of guys do through criminal activity, or we put it together as a viable legitimate sport and let men be men and do what men do and let the other fat lazy men sit around and criticize them while watching."
This post is intentionally brief because we want to encourage you to watch a recent ESPN documentary (approximately 20 minutes long) called A Fight for Faith. You will learn about the tragic story of a former college linebacker named George Clinkscale, who participated in an unsanctioned charity boxing match for Guts Church and died.
Who is speaking out against the absolute idiocy of Masculine Christianity? At long last voices are being raised against these ungodly interpretations of Scripture. More on that in our upcoming post…
Lydia's Corner: Ezekiel 31:1-32:32 Hebrews 12:14-29 Psalm 113:1-114:8 Proverbs 27:18-20
Preface: i am a man who likes sports, has large biceps and has a beard
This is absolutely ridiculous. These guys thinking themselves wise became fools. Men were not built for combat. What driscoll and his kin are asking is for men to be sinful men who are arrogant and filled with hate. How do i know? Because these are my struggles. I have to put to death the cravings of my days as a slave to sin, i have to put down violence and hate. One can be justly angered but to take the way of the fist is the worst.
Yes there is a difference between men and women but this is not it. In fact, early Believers warned new converts to stay away from chariot races and gladiator matches because the bloodsport not only shamed Christ but was idolatrous in a way beyond just worshipping Jupiter.
Christ was a real man and he never lifted a sword. He grabbed a whip to drive those like the zealots, the ones who wanted violence, from the temple. It takes more guts to take a punch and turn the other cheek than to punch back, fight, or dig a hole.
They need to stop worshipping Mars and start worshipping Lord Jesus.
I’m afraid I must rant.
(1) Sean Harris is scary
(2) Mark Driscoll knows exactly squat about fighting and the teamwork it requires. I was a professional boxer and I have known MMA guys (and I’m a girl). Matt Morin, a former cage fighter, wrote about Driscoll’s mistaken impressions of MMA and masculinity at theOtherJournal.com
(3) Years later, I still love boxing as a sport. Organizations like Guts Church that hold unsanctioned boxing events should be held criminally and civilly liable. It’s a dangerous sport and not for the untrained. Sanctioning requires that stringent safeguards be employed and state officials be present. What happened to George Clinkscale should never have happened.
I could say ever so much more, but I’ll spare everyone and leave it in my head.
Okay. Rant over.
Two questions on the Sean Harris situation:
(1) Did you hear the Sermon Audio interview in which Pastor Harris apologizes and expressed his desire to take back what he said?
and
(2) more importantly, did you attempt to contact Pastor Harris and invite him to have COFFEE {link) before posting this?
He is close by, after all.
SMG
This is truly horrific. Driscoll’s theology sucks. Any desire men have to fight each other comes from their sinful nature. Driscoll should be presenting the Biblical teaching that this sort of thing should be left behind (see Romans 6:6 and Galatians 5:24), not encouraged. My calling as a man is to love and to serve, not to believe some false teaching that I have to prove my manhood by beating others up. As a teenage new christian, I was taught that the fruit of the spirit (Gal 5:22-23) should be my goal in life. That advice has stood me well for 30 years and I’d recommend it to everyone, including Driscoll.
I grieve George Clinkscale’s unnecessary death. Their brand of ‘masculine Christianity’ is newmangled… This is really weird disempowering stuff gussied up as a testosterone high. There is so much undertone of the fear and loathing of ‘gayness’. And from a woman’s perspective, I find Pastor Sean Harris’ female prescriptions worthy of a critique in its own right.
I seriously wonder if these guys have read the same bible as I have. My God chose to be beaten up, nailed up and killed, told His followers to put away their swords, sat little children on His lap, got down and washed other people’s dirty feet, told us to turn the other cheek and go the extra mile and said we were to be distinguished for our love. There is no room there for the glorification of violence or phallic worship of any kind. In fact, I believe He overturned patriarchy with the simple statement “call no man Father”. Any guy (and I say this seriously) who has so many unresolved issues about his masculinity needs to be speaking to a counsellor, not a congregation.
It’s difficult to conclude anything but that these men hate women.
Instead of cracking wrists, here’s what I consider to be a great article dealing with the subject of childhood cross-dressing:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2092412/Why-I-let-son-dress-like-girl-years–sake-I-stop-it.html
Lynne Tait,
I love your comment so much that I’m including it in the follow-up post.
Sergius: I am sorry but the link you gave and Pastor Harris’ “apology” made absolutely no sense to me in light of Harris’ actual words. It sounded more like an explaining away than an actual apology. It was an apology with a poor explanation.
He said it was a “pro marriage sermon”? Really? It sounded like an anti-letting a child be a child sermon.
Harris didn’t really apologize for what he said: he denied ever saying fathers should punch their children (a lie), apologized for *unintentionally offending* anybody, and then went on to stump for his position a bit more. It was a classic non-apology, and clearly a poor attempt at damage control.
Real men love their wives.
Real men bring their wives flowers for no reason except to say, “I love you.”
Real men honor their wives every chance they get.
Real men remember their wives birthday and their wedding anniversary.
Real men do not “look with lust” at other women when they are with their wives (and when they are not!).
Real men are activity involved in their children’s lives.
Real men help their wives with the housework.
Real men fix things around the those the first time their wives ask them to do so.
Real men involve their wives in all the decisions they make – and they always make them together.
Real men provide for their families even if it means working two jobs.
Real men put their wives and families ahead of sports.
Real men read the Word everyday and share the Scriptures with their wives and children.
Real men do not drive their cars like maniacs, thus setting a good example for their children.
Real men clean toilets on occasion without being asked.
Real men run the vacuum cleaner on occasion without being asked.
Real men take out the trash.
Real men cook dinner for their families on occasion without being asked.
Real men come home at night and talk to their wives and children before reading the sports page.
Real men place others ahead of themselves.
Real men are like Jesus.
Do you want to be a real man? Take a shower, shave, ask you wife to get dressed up, take her to dinner, tell her that she is beautiful, that you love her, that you would marry her all over again, and that she is the best gift God ever gave you.
Real men love their wives even as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her.
“And I don’t think there’s anything purer than two guys in a cage – no balls, no sticks, no bats, no help, no team – and just see which man is better.”
Well, I can see how he could come to this conclusion if he thought a man’s entire worth as a human being rested in how muscular and virile he was, but only a pathologically insecure jock would think that. Oh, wait.
My dad (not exactly effeminate) looked at video of Mark Driscoll and said (per the “I’m not gay” talking point), “Methinks you doth protest too much.”
Driscoll’s theology promotes Christians judging each other’s hearts – as in, “You’re a guy and you prefer painting and dancing to bow-hunting and grilling RED MEAT? You must be gay! God made men to be MEN, ya know!” It even promotes this attitude among women. We’ll probably see a crop of young, Driscoll-indoctrinated mothers freaking out in the near future when their artistically gifted sons begin to express their talents. Let’s just hope their dads don’t take it upon themselves to “give them a good punch.”
Also, need I add that without “effeminate” men down through the centuries, we would have almost no art, music, etc.?
men are made for dominion
Looks like MD missed one of the basics of Genesis. Emphasis added in all caps.
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed THEM and said to THEM, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. RULE over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground. ”
Sergius
Do you take online orders? Can you imagine the success you will have – all of those hip coffee bars at churches? Can I be your NC distributor?
As for taking it back, I am not so sure. I think he doesn’t like the pushback he is getting. This is not something someone says lightly. I think he wishes he didn’t say it, but I think his underlying sentiment is still the same. And I will call him when I get back from the retreat.
Lynne
I find this stuff is sick. I bet anything he will get a lot of flack for this. He deserves it.
Randall
Sounds like you are a real man. Your wife is blessed.
Another verse he missed is Galatians 3:27-28. Gender is a continuum not a polarity. If we posit a continuum between John Wayne masculine and Marilyn Monroe, feminine, there will be some men closer to the feminine and some women closer to the masculine. Interestingly enough, some men will be interested in the arts and taking care of children without being at all homosexual and some women will be sports fanatics and still very feminine. Homosexuality is born in for most gay people. Pastor Harris “treatment” will lead more people to disguise who they really are which in turn leads to messed up lives,and marriages as disguises and are very damaging to everyone involved including the children.
I watched the ESPN video and the Mark Driscoll video. This has got to stop. This is just insanity. The church is going insane here in America.
And I don’t think there’s anything purer than two guys in a cage – no balls, no sticks, no bats, no help, no team – and just see which man is better.”
Said by a man in a Mickey Mouse t-shirt and puca shell necklace. Hmmm.
Anon1
There are many who see some disconnect between Driscoll’s pronouncements and his actions.
Yes, this is phallic worship “Christianity”. The ancient pagans would be proud of them. And it is getting worse. Even old guys like Piper are teaching it.
But you know what? People sit there and listen and don’t walk out. To me, that is even scarier.
Debbie
Let me add one word to your excellent comment – This stuff is wacko.
To Our Readers
Just a reminder we are both out of pocket and will do our best to approve comments and keep it together.
One of my reformed friends posted the link below on FB earlier today. I went in apprehensive, but was pleasantly surprised. I think it’s quite a good counterpoint to the Driscoll’s and Piper’s.
http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=email_friend&var1=Email&var2=articledisplay&var3=ArtRead&var4=1355&var5=issuedisplay&var6=IssRead&var7=124
I have taught others how to swing a sledge hammer and bust concrete, and after working with ten, found one who could put more force than I on the point of impact. SO WHAT. That does not make me a man!
On Randall’s list, I would add: A real man makes sure his wife has been satisfied before he gets his, rolls over and goes to sleep.
BTW, there is an old saying: Foreplay begins in the kitchen, as in, fix her a nice meal, wash the dishes (together if possible), and treat her like God’s gift to you and the world.
And it still happens after 33 years of marriage.
Clinkscale’s girlfriend didn’t know about the fight. He didn’t tell her. Why? Because she would have asked all the right questions.
At 6:36 mark: “What is this for? Who’s doing it? A CHURCH? Why are they doing this?”
It really is destructive when preachers tell men that they know what’s going on and their wives, mothers, and girlfriends don’t. That is a lie. And apparently that lie can get a guy killed.
And now a little girl is going to grow up without the father that adored her because of the Mars worship, Manhood idol that has spread like a cancer through out churches.
So many things to say here! First, I am glad that Sean Harris apologized…especially since he seems to be equating Biblical womanhood with beauty, which I’m pretty sure the Bible actually teaches AGAINST. Go figure that one out.
Second, Mark Driscoll’s words about sports being the natural, un-sinful outlet for sinful desires, makes not one bit of flippin sense. I mean really….God created us with a desire that is completely sinful UNTIL humanity invents a correct outlet for it? That is not theologically sound. Sinful desires happen because God first gives us good desires, gives us good outlets for those desires, but then we find ways to corrupt them. And some desires are just plain sinful to begin with because they didn’t come from God, and beating each other to a pulp, has GOT to be one of them!
And finally, if we’re going to talk about being “manly,” let me just throw this out there. I am married to someone whom I consider to be a real man, and here is why: he is patient; he is thoughtful; he thinks deep thoughts and doesn’t make quick judgments; he is slow to get angry; he works with me to divide career and housework equitably between both of us; he supported my desire to go back to school; he encourages me with great passion when I get discouraged about my career; he shares his wages unselfishly with me; he lets me have my space; he lets me have my own thoughts; he stands up for me when I need it; he lets me stand up for him when he needs it; he lets me in on his deepest emotions.
These are the things I like him best for, and notice that they don’t sound like Mark Driscoll’s version of a real man….
The Observer
randall slack,
I can only imagine the harmony that would occur in many marriages if real men followed your guidelines.
Thanks for that list.
All of these comments are excellent! Keep ’em coming!
Juniper, I enjoyed your comment, especially since you have highly relevant experience as a female boxer! I wouldn’t qualify your statement as a “rant” at all–I think it’s statements like yours which come from true experience and authentic concern, which help delegitimize this crazy trend and the inexperienced, illegitimate philosophy that its proponents are putting forth as gospel. Own it, sister!
I listened to the Sean Harris justification (err, I mean apology) audio. I’m glad to have the context and a fuller explanation of what he was trying to get across. What I find particularly disturbing is the laughter and amens from the congregation when he was delivering the portion of the sermon in the clip above and the fact that he said that he went ahead and posted the sermon online, unedited, because he didn’t think he had said anything inflammatory, nor did anyone else on his staff, nor did any of the deacons or anyone else in his congregation. That is just pathetic.
And I don’t think there’s anything purer than two guys in a cage – no balls, no sticks, no bats, no help, no team – and just see which man is better.”
Said by a man in a Mickey Mouse t-shirt and puca shell necklace. Hmmm. — Anon1
Don’t forget the spare tire and Kewpie-doll Faux-hawk.
Moniker,
I had the same reaction you have described. What I find frightening is that these “macho ministers” seem to live in a bubble and are surprised when they receive pushback, even from conservative Christians.
These young, relatively inexperienced pastors are a real problem. No wonder the Bible uses the term “elder”.
Just…wow.
Shaking my head. I heard about this crazy NC pastor in our local news this week. They only brought out the “punch your sons” comment. I had not heard the rest. Personally the info to girls makes me just as mad — “you can play sports but you also have to be beautiful” crap.
Are these people ACTUALLY parents themselves? I know they are, but you wouldn’t realize it by their “wisdom.”
Mark Driscoll knows exactly squat about fighting and the teamwork it requires. I was a professional boxer and I have known MMA guys (and I’m a girl). Matt Morin, a former cage fighter, wrote about Driscoll’s mistaken impressions of MMA and masculinity at theOtherJournal.com — Juniper
All Driscoll can see is two Real Men (TM) beating each other up in a cage. (And the winner afterwards gets to screw the loser’s women?)
It’s obvious Driscoll has only one definition of the masculine: “I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!” (Or at least order his Armorbearers to do so.)
You know what he keeps reminding me of? The pudgy doughy fat kid who’s constantly telling himself “I’M TOUGH! I’M TOUGH! I’M TOUGH!”, fanboying around the truly tough and violent trying to convince himself he’s one of Them. “I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!” (And if he can’t, he can order an Armorbearer to do so.)
And this Pudgy Doughy Fat Kid with the Mickey Mouse T-shirt and Kewpie-doll haircut is now in a position of Power by Divine Right (“Touch Not Mine Anointed!”) going “I’LL SHOW YOU! I’LL SHOW YOU! I’LL SHOW YOU!”
Y’all, this post is painful to read. The men I know are not like this. They are gentle, kind, loving, do housework to help their wives and joyfully spend time with all of their children. They consider it more important to spend time loving and serving their neighbors than to watch a football game.
My beloved neighbor Roger was one of these men and he went home to Jesus around midnight. Roger was the complete opposite of the type of man that Mark Driscoll and Sean Harris promote and he will be missed for that very reason. I probably won’t comment again for at least a week as I help Roger’s family with funeral arrangements and the initial grieving period.
Men were not built for combat. What driscoll and his kin are asking is for men to be sinful men who are arrogant and filled with hate. How do i know? Because these are my struggles. I have to put to death the cravings of my days as a slave to sin, i have to put down violence and hate. One can be justly angered but to take the way of the fist is the worst. — Cal
“I’M A REAL MAN! I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP! I CAN BEAT YOU UP!”
I remember some essay on the Web about barbarians, how when they weren’t fighting and killing, they spent their downtime moping around and drinking, letting their women run everything. Only when they were fighting and killing and looting and destroying would they rouse from their lethargy and become Real Men (TM).
Yes there is a difference between men and women but this is not it. In fact, early Believers warned new converts to stay away from chariot races and gladiator matches because the bloodsport not only shamed Christ but was idolatrous in a way beyond just worshipping Jupiter. — Cal
Wonder if Driscoll would be in the front-row seats at the Ampitheatrum Flavium fanboying/cheering on the Real Men cutting each other up in the Arena? Better than an MMA cage fight — there’s REAL Blood and Death!
Anonymous,
I am so sorry. I have a friend named Roger who recently stopped by to speak to me as he drove down my street (as I was working in my front yard). He is probably the kind of husband you describe, and he’s employed by the Boy Scouts of America. So glad he’s a positive role model for young men in our community, unlike the so-called ‘macho men’.
Anonymous – so sorry to hear about Roger’s passing. Heaven’s gain, the world’s loss.
“Take those words, rip them out of context and then post them on the internet”? Doesn’t sound like the beginning of an apology to me; sounds like a shaming of the people who put the pastors sermon out there for the world to hear.
Those of you continuing in the church don’t see it because you are too close to it, but the obvious arrogance and disdain for non-co-religionists is a HUGE TURN OFF and is patently obvious. No one who is not a co-religionist will listen past that first sentence. No. One.
But then, non-co-religionists are not the concern of the fundamentalist Christian crowd. We are less than nothing to you religious addicts, fit only for hell. Why would you worry about offending us?
Every day out of the church it becomes clearer and clearer why people refer to AFA, FRC, FotF, and this Baptist church as hate groups. It mystified me while I was still an imbibler, but it is plain as day once you get out.
Y’all better NOT be saying anything unkind about boxer dogs … the one in the picture look just like my Clementine, 1 of 3, and at 10-years old she is still full of, uh, vinegar etc.
I’m sorry, Jesus wasn’t a cage fighter.
MD is silly and immature.
Sean Harris you’re wrong. I’m a Quaker married to a Quaker with a bumper sticker on my car that reads “real men don’t use violence”. There are lots of real men in traditionally pacifist churches such as Quakers, Brethren and Anabaptist groups! Sean Harris’ advice to beat male children acting effeminate also ignores the fact appearances can be very deceptive. On my first teaching job, one of my colleagues fit the classic limp wrist gay stereotype but was a straight as a ruler, father of six! A department chair in one of the several schools where I did graduate work looked and acted like an Arrow shirt color ad, but tried to rape a male grad student friend. The professor was notorious, no male student would ever go in his office, but a woman was safe. This man was not typical of gay men who are usually not harrassers or abusers. He’s just an example of deceptive appearances.
So Sean Harris thinks we can beat effeminate behavior out of children? Great…just what we need.
Sergius George-
Why is it MORE IMPORTANT for TWW to contact this guy, than for him to really apologize and disavow himself from advocating for violence against children?
Sophie said “It’s difficult to conclude anything but that these men hate women. ” I think they hate anyone that does not bow down and serve them or stroke their precious masculine egos.
Bob Felton,
I enjoyed posting the picture of the boxers. They are so cute and as I stated, they are the only boxers I like.
I am a dog lover! When I was growing up, I had a German Shepherd. My husband and I had two Black Labs, which lived a long time. The last one to go to doggie heaven was almost 16 years old! Now I have a cute little Maltese named Coconut. She is such a faithful companion. Dee and her husband rescue pugs, and they currently have two – Lily and Petunia.
No offense to the cat lovers out there…
As a mother of two beautiful daughters I find those comments about “you WILL be beautiful” deeply disturbing. I have dedicated a significant portion of my life trying to teach my children that true beauty is within. It is from a relationship with Jesus. It is in the power of their minds and their character. Whatever happened to “Charm is deceitful and beauty is passing, but a woman who fears the Lord, she shall be praised”?
I have one very girly girl who is smart, confident and loves the Lord. She is naturally beautiful and loves to shop, buy clothes, wear makeup etc. She wants to be a family therapist and worship leader.
I have one tomboy who is fiercely independent and brilliant and loves to do sports and other traditionally “boy” activities. She has always preferred Legos to Barbies and a Backyard Ballistics class to the cooking class offered at our co-op. She couldn’t care less about the world’s standard of beauty. She wants to be an international business lawyer. She is also determined to learn Hebrew and possibly Greek so she can read the Word for herself. She is 12.
She told me recently that the name “Mars Hill” makes her feel creeped out. “Why would they name their church after the Roman god of war?”
Oh…and we reside in Seattle, Driscol land, so I have to hear this “Mark Driscol says” garbage from some of my friends. It makes me ill.
It’s hard enough to combat messages from the culture at large aimed at my children. To have to look over my shoulder within the church as well is exhausting.
@Doubtful:
I was being facetious. My use of the term “more importantly” was a reference to the constant objections to chastising public discourse–publicly–made by Christians who do not understand the context of Matthew 18, hence the reference to the fictitious “Matthew 18 Coffee” product.
@Dee:
But then again, maybe it shouldn’t be fictitious. And of course you can have distribution rights–I think the product will sell especially well in North Carolina.
@Debbie Kaufman:
That’s what I get for listening to an interview while trying to clean the kitchen. Will definitely give it a second, undistracted, close listening.
SMG
So Sean Harris thinks we can beat effeminate behavior out of children? Great…just what we need. — Doubtful
AKA “Beat the Fag out of the kid”?
Been on the receiving end of that; I got falsely labeled “Teh Fag” of my high school and beaten up by the other kids. (A friend of mine across the country had it even worse — he got groped in the showers by the Alpha Males.)
Sergius George-
Why is it MORE IMPORTANT for TWW to contact this guy, than for him to really apologize and disavow himself from advocating for violence against children? — Doubtful
Because if TWW comes to God’s Anointed, they come grovelling for the Anointed’s Forgiveness. AFTER Confessing their Sin on their knees. Think the Great White Throne scene from a Jack Chick tract. Or the Jesse Jackson episode of South Park.
I am sorry Sergius…totally missed the joke.
No problem. Let’s meet for coffee so that I can forgive you properly, then blog about it.
EVERYBODY:
I’ve been involved in Furry Fandom for many years, coming from the angle of a wanna-be SF writer. One of the things you think about coming from that angle is the difference between animals and people. And the idea of “Transcending the Animal”; according to my reading of Gifts of the Jews by Thomas Cahill, the idea of Torah was to force the covenant people to Transcend the Animal. (And later the Gospel took Torah to the next level, further Transcending the Animal.)
What Driscoll, Harris, et al are preaching is NOT human behavior. It is just the opposite of Transcending the Animal — the Alpha Male of a harem herd-species beating rivals into submission, driving off or destroying any threats to themselves, and forcing sexual submission on the females (or the Alpha Male’s orifices of preference), all through raw Power, Threat, and Domination. It is the Forced Dominance Display of an ANIMAL, the Strongest Forcing Dominance on the Subs.
Any guy (and I say this seriously) who has so many unresolved issues about his masculinity needs to be speaking to a counsellor, not a congregation.
Lynne, I couldn’t agree more. Serious unresolved issues.
The irony. Driscoll IS one of the fat, lazy dudes sitting around watching.
He’s living vicariously through these guys and deriving a sense of superiority through it –
“I watch UFC, so I’m tough like them and you’re not!”
Scott – I think it’s “I BRAG about watching UFC,” actually. 😉
It seems to me you can appreciate the male/female differences WITHOUT asserting a lot of theology into it… the mistake here is making all kinds of “Biblical” assertions out of biology. Just as God appears masculine/powerful to us, He is also commpasionate/loving – typically feminine attributes. Note to Driscoll – if you think you’re so tough – try having a baby. Without an epidural.
Real men stand for the truth, no matter what.
Driscoll crumpled before TD Jakes at the Elephant Room. Instead of nailing Jakes for his false view of the Trinity, he gave him an easy out.
Piper withered before Rick Warren. When Piper was criticized for inviting Warren to a conference and for “finding no problems” with “The Purpose-Driven Life”(!), he interviewed Warren, asking him softball questions and those that can be answered “yes” or “no.”
In both cases, they gave in to men with enormous followings, and who were probably perceived by them as being more “powerful.” Very manly.
The most jaw-dropping, imbecilic comment from all these “manly” guys is Driscoll’s “I wouldn’t respect Jesus if I could beat Him up.” We’ve come a long way from Spurgeon.
“…Boastful warriors rarely have a good death. Whether young in battle or pissing themselves as old men, when death approaches, they will squeal like a hare in the jaws of the winter wolf…”
From the ruminations of Spotted Crow, elder of the Menominee in the year of the fallen towers.
I work with some people – male and female – who, physically, genetically, do not conform to standard notions of masculinity and femininity. And no amount of gender normative clothing or what-have-you would change the fact that they just don’t look very masculine or feminine. The place I work is not part of some subculture, it’s just your regular big box retail environment.
Yet another example of the “sucks to be you” gospel playing itself out in real life.
Bravo to Michael Horton! Wish all the Reformed leaders would read and apply.
I’m just so over these narcissistic guys and anyone else who is like them. I hope they read what I wrote. Yep, your all narcissists to the core of your being… They tell others to get right with God yet, they are so far from him. They are so delusional in their thinking in everyway.
I am a man. I am a follower of Jesus and have been for more than 40 years. I know the Bible and I know theology well. I was an MK and have been taught about christianity since I was very young. I have also survived two wars, riots, martial law, and more than one deadly disease. I’ve seen natural disasters and horrific accidents. I’ve played sports competitively.
And I believe these types of teachings are not only ridiculous, but harmful. They are nothing more than a manifestation of human beings’ original sin of pride. These so-called teachers can dress it up any way they want, but the bottom line is that they are promoting a violent machismo that has nothing to do with being a man shaped by Jesus. Real believers, men and women, pray for the strength to serve and sacrifice and heal, not conquer and beat and injure. Courage comes from experience of hardship and sacrifice as we follow Jesus, not from the kind of empty bravado these idiots are preaching.
Sergius Martin-George,
I just wanted to say how much I enjoy your satire. So glad you’re a regular here at TWW. 🙂
René, I certainly do appreciate those kind words. I enjoy reading your insightful comments as well.
Et je voulais vous demander: Vous êtes Québécois? Bien que j’habite Alabama, j’ai suivi un cours à SEMBEQ à Montréal, il y a, trois ans? Avec D.A. Carson — en français, dans laquelle il est plus facile de comprendre (à mon avis anglophone!).
Plus facile à comprendre. Désolé.
So Driscoll is continuing to hold forth from his Pecker Pulpit (patent pending) how utterly manly he is. In his eyes he’s da man, no question about it, with stones so wide and heavy that lesser men must step aside on the sidewalk.
Honest to Rudy, this pudgy goober’s inflammatory remarks (and those of his acolyte toadies) have gone from the silly to the ridiculous to the mind-numbingly horrifying. God alone knows where this stuff will end, but it won’t be good.
Sergius Martin-George,
Alas, not Québécois. Just a westerner with rusty grade 12 French and Mennonite and Punjabi parents who boldly appropriated a name that was neither Mennonite nor Punjabl. (And got the spelling wrong, since I ought to be Renée.)
One of my big regrets is not having spent a good chunk of time in Montréal. What a city!
Real believers, men and women, pray for the strength to serve and sacrifice and heal, not conquer and beat and injure.
Amen, John.
The irony. Driscoll IS one of the fat, lazy dudes sitting around watching.
He’s living vicariously through these guys and deriving a sense of superiority through it –
“I watch UFC, so I’m tough like them and you’re not!” — Scott
And if that’s how Driscoll became such a Tough Alpha Male, from what I’ve been watching lately I should now be a brightly-colored cartoony unicorn mare.
More seriously — DEAD seriously — I have seen more Gospel and Kingdom in My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic and its derivative fanart, fan comics, and fanfic than anything coming out of Driscoll’s pulpit. Or any of the Truly Reformed Calvinista pulpits.
Rene,
You sound like you might be from Abbotsford, or at least the Lower Mainland BC region. That’s where I’m from! (Although I don’t live there anymore…)
I think these guys (gender gospel devotees) are desperate to turn back the clock to what they percieve as the good old days. It ain’t gonna happen no matter how many bully pulpits they occupy.
WWII was the great daylight savings time clock change for women. For the first time (generally speaking) since the founding of the nation, they had money and pride of ownership derived from their own labors in the workforce. Once humans (gender irrelevant) get a taste of freedom and autonomy, there is no going back.
“Driscoll crumpled before TD Jakes at the Elephant Room. Instead of nailing Jakes for his false view of the Trinity, he gave him an easy out.”
Don’t you think that was intentional on Driscoll’s part? I do.
Piper withered before Rick Warren. When Piper was criticized for inviting Warren to a conference and for “finding no problems” with “The Purpose-Driven Life”(!), he interviewed Warren, asking him softball questions and those that can be answered “yes” or “no.”
Same with Doug Wilson…he is just confusing, in Piper’s opinion. Warren is “sound.” Why he promotes them I do not know.
“In both cases, they gave in to men with enormous followings, and who were probably perceived by them as being more “powerful.” Very manly.”
I wonder about them giving in or crumpling. I think with Driscoll it was planned to not ask TD the hard questions-so as to give the impression that he is part of those guys–one big happy family. What with Macdonald promoting Furtick ptomoting TD and all.
I would suspect also that it must gall them to no end to see so many women these days succeeding admirably in the sciences and the high-end professions such as law and medicine.
Could it be that nowadays what was formerly referred to as penis envy is now becoming replaced by vagina envy on the part of those who wistfully long for the good old days that never were?
Another great article on the dangerous stupidity of ‘masculine Christianity, this time by Eric Pazdziora
http://www.ericpazdziora.com/writing/the-truth-about-effeminate-worship/
I would suspect also that it must gall them to no end to see so many women these days succeeding admirably in the sciences and the high-end professions such as law and medicine.
Oh, Muff, it does indeed. Here’s Tim Bayly whining again about women with authority.
“Let me be clear, here: I am not saying that Christian men should rebel against authority when, contrary to God’s Creation order, it is exercised by woman. If a female police officer pulls me over and tickets me, I’ll respect and submit to her, not because she has a gun and a radio, but because she has been placed over me by God, bearing the sword in His behalf.
Still, I will recognize that her authority is contrary to God’s creation order in the matter of sexuality, and it will grieve me causing me, like Lot, to gnash my teeth.”
Source:
http://www.baylyblog.com/2007/04/what_is_feminis.html
Note that Bayly is completely illogical here – he says women should not exercise authority because it is against God’s created order, but then says that God has placed a women over him, defying His (God’s) own created order. The mental gymnastics these guys go through to cling to their power with bloody fingernails only proves how power-hungry they really are.
Maybe we should get Piper to advise this female police officer – how can she pull over Tim Bayly and issue him a ticket without bruising his frail masculine (cough cough) ego?
I look forward to the church being cleansed of this nonsense. Amazing that Piper and Driscoll and The Mahaney POD* People all think they are proclaiming the gospel. I wholeheartedly believe that the process of marginalizing them is already underway and that God is making ready for a fresh move of the Spirit to break forth in churches that distance themselves in doctrine and practice from these false teachers!
* Reference: “Invasion of the Body Snatchers”
Leila,
I hope she gives him another ticket for teeth-gnashing.
Theophilus,
Good guess! I’m actually a few provinces east of Abbotsford, but when I visited recently I felt weirdly at home, for the first time ever. It’s probably the only place in the world where there may be more of my kind. 🙂
HUG: “And if that’s how Driscoll became such a Tough Alpha Male, from what I’ve been watching lately I should now be a brightly-colored cartoony unicorn mare.”
STMNL! (snortingthrougmynoselaughing)
It’s a good thing for me that had swallowed my coffee before I ready your comment.
Thanks for the laugh, HUG. I always appreciate your comments and your humor. I’m not a LOL kinda gal, sort of a smile inside type, so when someone can get me to have a visible reaction, they’ve accomplished something.
(Daughter is on the floor doing her homework asking me what is so funny. How on earth do I explain?)
Lynne –
Thanks for that link. It was a good article. Another article “The Myth of the Weaker Vessel” was good as well. I needed that after reading over at CBMW last night.
It’s funny that I have nothing good to add but this… I stay in the weight room and watch guys stare in the mirror all hard as they do arm curls with 10lb barbells as I pick up the 25’s… I also laugh as I back squat with 100 lbs on my shoulders and they meanmug me while squatting 60. I love it even more that when I leave the gym, I’ve got on some make-Em-droll pumps and a sexy dress with some pearls… And fire engine red lips. VERY proud to be a strong woman. But I love strong men–as one described her husband above. They are truly worthy of such love, admiration and respect. I will wait for him, whoever he is.
It hadn’t occurred to me often how I’ve had to sit in a congregation and listen to punk-as$ men like this preach from the pulpit as if they rule the world, especially women–all the while refraining from walking up the pulpit rather calmly and punching them square in the nose into oblivion simply beause I know I could kick their wimpy closet-homo arses face down. …because when you really can bring it, you don’t brag about it. You just wait for your moment to show what you got… With high heels, red lips and the sleekest bun in the pews… If my husband ever instinuated that type of benavior towards my child or any other, he’d get his as$ handed to him, politely. These guys say this stuff and get away with it because the women LET THEM. I know because I once did. Never again. Never. Again.
Word of the day: dastardly
Trina: “It hadn’t occurred to me often how I’ve had to sit in a congregation and listen to punk-as$ men like this preach from the pulpit as if they rule the world, especially women–all the while refraining from walking up the pulpit rather calmly and punching them square in the nose into oblivion simply beause I know I could…”
Trina, how tall are you? Not that it matters. Because if you do 25s in arm curls and 100 in squats, you don’t need to be tall.
I only ask because, I’m tall. I’m also large framed. Always have been. I was taller than (almost) all the boys from around 6th or 7th grade on through Sophmore or Junior year.
It intimidated some of those boys.
Some of those boys, because they were intimidated, were not very nice to me.
For a while I subconsciously diminished myself in order to try to be less threatening.
It took a few years of maturity to realize what was going on, to reverse the ill effects on me, and to stop catering to their insecurity.
Now, I can recognize the insecure male ego miles off.
Piper’s cautioning women to make sure that when they give directions to men in a way that doesn’t exude any kind of authority is nothing more than the rantings of a short, insecure, adolescent all grown up and in a pulpit (or writing a book on ways women can diminish themselves so he doesn’t have to feel intimidated.)
The problem with Piper’s message is that it doesn’t deal with the real issue, his own insecurity. He needs for that to get healed, then the fact that I tower over him won’t threaten him any more.
Short men don’t have to be insecure.
Take the missionary in my church. He’s very short, even petite. He has a baby face, and a gentle voice. But I always forget that he’s short. Not because he runs around yelling, “I’m a man! I’m a man!” but because he IS a man. He’s confident in who he is in Christ, going to Muslim nations to preach the gospel. I NEVER feel like he needs for me to diminish myself in order to protect his fragile ego.
So I know it can be done.
I know short men do not have to be intimidated by my stature. I’ve seen it. It is the thing that escapes all these ‘manly men’ pushing all their ‘manhood doctrine’. The problem is not women behaving in the way that these men would prefer. The problem is their own insecurity. And the solution is not reducing women, but rather healing their wounded souls.
Bleh. I’m so sick of hearing about this kind of nonsense. All people are real. All men are real men, all women are real women. Valuing certain types of people as “real” men or women over others leads to treating anyone who doesn’t fit the model as less than fully human.
Mara, I agree 100%. Not that I’m super big or anything (5′ 7″ here) but I think that one of the deep truths is that real men are big enough to enjoy real women. When a man feels the need to diminish who I am in order not to feel threatened by me, I know that there is a coward who is running away from doing the hard yards of growing up into Christ and putting away his own childish ego.
Many years ago there was a course called the Philosophy of Christian Womanhood (it would have been ’78 when I did it) It was rampant at our church. one of the big teachings was that God had given men certain ego needs which must be fulfilled. Even then I couldn’t get my head around why the male ego was a good thing to be cherished and the female ego was straight from the pit of hell and must be destroyed. The really scary thing was that the course was supposed to have been written by women!
Here’s what really saddens me. As another astute observer said, these guys are trying desperately to turn back the clock to a “previous” view of women and men that they perceive to be more Godly. But guess what? THAT THIS TIME EVER EXISTED IS A FANTASY.
You heard me right. There WAS a time when men and women’s roles were viewed in a more traditional way by the general society, but here’s the catch; the view towards women at that time was one of condescension, arrogance and superiority. It was not Christ-like. It was not “servant leadership” or whatever they think husbands should be, it was leftover from a long history of misguided thinking about women being “less” than men. That is not Christ-like, and to ring in that supposedly golden age would not be getting us any closer to what God wants.
These guys need to accept that current Complementarianism and its golden-era fantasy are even younger than the egalitarian movement, and move the crap on with their lives!
Another thing: Poor women have always contributed to the family income working from ages past. They took in washing, picked cotton, planted crops, did piece work, etc.
The pat’s idealized woman comes from a few short era’s of history: Victorian with the emergence of a middle class in England and the upward mobility of the 1950’s. If anything will kill comp doctrine in it’s fullness, it is the economy.
Trina and Mara, If a building were on fire and Russ Moore, Bruce Ware, Doug Phillips and John Piper became unconscious, you guys would be able to carry them out to safety.
However, none of them would be able to carry either one of you out alone because they are all very tiny men.
So much for masculine Christianity.
Jesus Christ is the realized ideal for all men and women; these guys, like Mark Driscoll, are nothing like Jesus. What kind of masculinity is this? The flesh, the old man that Paul talks about and that we need to put off, yet these guys put it on and are proud of it. Somebody is deluded here!
The Devil, I think, is successful in getting these guys off track and the Old Serpent is having a hey day and laughing when these guys have a conference on the so-called masculine Christianity.
I think deep down, these guys are very insecure in themselves; therefore, they have to play up their masculinity to scare people off and give themselves some assurance that they are okay, they measure up. Only boys and girls are scared, mature adults, men or women, who know who they are, what they are in Christ and what they have in Christ have no fear. What do you folks think?
Thanks Trina, Mara and others for all your wonderful comments!
I am ashamed to say that I persevered in reformed baptist circles for 20 years before giving up on church altogether. What was very clear – irrespective of what the Holy Spirit revealed through the scriptures to the contrary – was women were second-class citizens in this kingdom. This kingdom was not the Kingdom of Heaven but the kingdom of weak, insecure men established to strengthen and protect their fragile egos.
I think these men haven’t had a life-transforming vision of the good news, so in their insecurity, they search the scriptures finding proof texts to support their kingdom, and refuse to come to King Jesus to give them true Kingdom life.
Tina, MM:
I don’t think these guys have realised that neither they, nor their congregation, have to put on a performance before God. In fact it’s best not to. Men and women both need to grow and mature in their own ways, but to insist on an actively instated ‘masculinity’ in the church (and the submissive ‘biblical womanhood’ that goes with it) is to take away God’s grace, the grace which assures us that God loves us CONSISTENTLY for WHO WE ARE, not how much we play out ‘biblical’ gender roles. These guys are bending to law, their own law, not to the Holy Spirit!
Anon1, they’d have to rescue them from the fire in a very submissive way, though, so as not to offend these tough manly preacher men. “If you please, we were wondering if you wouldn’t perhaps like us to rescue you from this fire? I know you’re all much bigger and tougher and manlier than we are, of course, but even so, would you like us to be your submissive helpmeets before you pass out from smoke inhalation?”.
Ann
“These guys are bending to law, their own law, not to the Holy Spirit!”
I totally agree with you.
Lynne–
That focus on certain male ego needs reminds me of that book Wild At Heart and all the others like it. Most of my twenties was spent in churches where the focus has been on rediscovering the “true” masculine and feminine. It’s interesting becuase as I recall the many sermons I sat through with my grandparents growing up, they were being taught Scripture and relative Christian duties and living. Never this stuff. Moreover, they were simply being taught the good news of the Gospel– Christ’s sacrifice and the abundant life nad freedom from sin given to us becuase of it.
Anne–
You are right. But notice how they define mascline and feminine based on the qualifications they think they meet. It’s always the person who is defining it that thinks he is best suited to model it.
..and might I add, is the reason why you have so many single Christians who will remain single if they do not find a way to fit into that predefined mold.
MM–
I only survived about 18 months total… THAT was wayyyy too long. It did enough damage that I, too, refuse to sit in the pews any longer. The current state of the church here in America really frightens me and honestly, I see no real benefit in going to a local church every Sunday morning. And I speak as one who was born, bred and raised in the church. It’s just always something and I’m tired of the cyclical revists of depression, anxiety, shunning, new waves, etc… that I have been going round and round every couple of years. More than joining wtih other so-called believers every Sunday who fake liking each other, or fake close relationship, I’d rather have a whole heart, a sound mind, and a peaceful being. If it’s in Him that I live and move and have my being, then I can just focus on that. So what if I get the smaller details wrong; I’ve gotten the same exact result doing it with a couple hundred other people. I see no difference, except for the peace of mind that I now have and the confidence that God really loves and accepts me.
Anon1–
As a black woman who grew up in a famly of hardworking women, and grandmother’s and great grandmother’s who cleaned homes and worked in the fields for much of nothing, it has always been very apparent to me that the comp doctrine is a very cultural marginalized white American Christianity that is offensive in the face of others who belong to Christ and love Him just as much, but who can neither afford to live such lives, but also, dont share a common history or outlook. This doctrine and culture within this neo-Reformed community gives many women heartache, especially single women. But literally pushes black women and black families (or even other non-white cultures) out the door. It’s crazy how naieve they are and how oblivious these people are as to how the rest of the world lives; and even how the world DID live in the times of Christ and before Him. I dont know how many times Ive gotten into heated arguments with people trying to help them see that their doctrine was based on their cultural ideals and experiences, and could not be found in Scripture unless one read it into Scripture. That made for some interesting conversations. I never had a chance in that place, not being me, i didnt. I”m rather glad of it,too 😉
Of course it’s based on cultural ideas and traditions – a big clue is how they see those Victorian dresses and denim skirts as ‘modesty’. Now which came first, the Victorians or the comp movement?
I am SO glad I wouldn’t fit into their mold. It’s a horrible one. In fact we should feel sorry for those macho pastors, because like MM was saying before, they haven’t found true freedom in Christ yet.
@Trina: But notice how they define mascline and feminine based on the qualifications they think they meet. It’s always the person who is defining it that thinks he is best suited to model it.
So true! I think it was Piper (though it may have been Grudem) who said that it’s CLEAR (there’s that word again) that women should be the primary caretakers of children because their brains are so much better at multitasking and they can better deal with multiple sensory inputs at one time. Even if that generalization were true (and I don’t know whether it is or not), isn’t it funny how Piper never considered that maybe it’s CLEAR that women should be air traffic controllers and not men. Or incident commanders at major fire emergencies. Or any other of those times where multitasking and multiple sensory inputs characterize the job.
it has always been very apparent to me that the comp doctrine is a very cultural marginalized white American Christianity that is offensive in the face of others who belong to Christ and love Him just as much, but who can neither afford to live such lives, but also, dont share a common history or outlook.
There was one patriarchal women blogger a few years back who INSISTED that all women in all times and all cultures were to be homemakers, period. She was spouting some nonsense about how women slaves in the American south stayed in their slave cabins all day keeping house while their husbands worked the fields. Can you imagine? And if someone believes that, there’s no way in heck they’re going to believe today’s American women should ever have cause to work outside the home.
Trina and the rest of you; Yea!!!!
My formothers were the white version, they had to be strong, they had to work.
Might I go on to suggest that some culturally constructed version of femininity is idolized along with a very base perversion of masculinity.
Trina said: “I see no real benefit in going to a local church every Sunday morning. And I speak as one who was born, bred and raised in the church. It’s just always something and I’m tired of the cyclical revists of depression, anxiety, shunning, new waves, etc… that I have been going round and round every couple of years. More than joining wtih other so-called believers every Sunday who fake liking each other, or fake close relationship, I’d rather have a whole heart, a sound mind, and a peaceful being.”
You just summarized how I’ve been feeling for several years now. Since we left the cultish church 4 years ago, I have stumbled around. I have attended, loosely one church since then, but that’s even gone now. I find Jesus on Sunday morning making pancakes for my family, working in my yard and garden, singing praise and worship songs to myself. I know the whole “forsake not the assembly with the saints” bit — but my argument is that can’t I assemble with the saints AT HOME and Monday-Saturday in other realms? I’m so done with church.
I wish I felt differently. I do not.
This guy has it figured out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ayzwzGB2kXw#!
Oh this subject makes me tired & cross. The thing that makes me tiredest is how many of these ‘men’ desperately want what they see as Christian roles, i.e the man as leader, without seeing that without the Christlike character that is presumably essential for it, that role is not ‘Christian’ at all. There are so many stories of men being allowed to terrorise their families & no-one calling them on it because ‘they are the Head’, when people should have been piling in there to complain it was against Christ’s character to be that way. It’s like the ‘role’ is above ‘character’, which is total nonsense.
And seriously, does MD have 3 testicles? He seems to have a worse testosterone lobotomy than many of his kind…& by his kind I mean adolescents, in which I specialise, professionally.
One thing I have noticed about myself is what I got completely away from this thinking (comp doctrine stuff) and started really studying on my own, this stuff started looking very bizarre to me. Even evil in many ways as it keeps people looking at themselves and others instead of Christ. (I personally think Satan is delighted at this diversion that has become part of the “Good News”)
It can seem so normal when you are around it. And I was only in soft comp situations where the hard comp would only rear it’s ugly head now and then in specific situations.
But even now, I see it as so irrational and illogical when taken to it’s logical conclusions. :People in it spout sound bites from preachers and never really stop and think deeply about what they are believing. It is easy to see how the masses can be so manipulated in politics and the church if you think about it.
“This doctrine and culture within this neo-Reformed community gives many women heartache, especially single women. But literally pushes black women and black families (or even other non-white cultures) out the door.”
Thank you, Tina. You nailed it.
I think these manly men have let themselves be blown off course from the mission of the Gospel by the advent of feminism. They have turned their missions into cultural battles and presumed that the world will see their wisdom and be transformed by their knowledge and their teachings. They spend an enormous amount of energy on pursuits that are not the mission of the disciples of Jesus.
I don’t recall Jesus ever being caught up in the cultural issues if his generation. In fact, he wasn’t the type of king the Jews were looking for and He told them so himself. He did address many heart issues and showed all, who had ears to hear and eyes to see, what the Kingdom of God was like. He didn’t separate the men and the women. His messages were for everyone.
In Jesus’ culture, the women worked as hard as the men — maybe harder since they worked, carried a child for 9 months, and gave birth (like today!).It wasn’t until the industrial revolution that life became easier for anyone. In poorer countries, people continue to work harder than we do for the simple necessities of life that we (wealthy nations) take for granted.
It seems to me that what really bothered men is when women started moving into the THINKING realm. When you think about it, women were often doing a lot of physical work while men were moving into the thinking area. For instance, many men in the church want men to rule the market on doctrines and theology. Why is this? Men and women both have brains. It’s like they are trying to hold on to “something” that they think will give them some bit of “aboveness” over someone else. (Didn’t someone get thrown out of heaven for this?) And we have seen that syndrome played out all through history . . . men and women wanting to rule over others. Women can be as guilty as men in regards to this. It is more offensive to me when done in the name of God, and it’s been done many times over in the name of God by men and women who claimed more knowledge and understanding of
doctrine and theology than those they claimed to be enlightening.
Here’s what really saddens me. As another astute observer said, these guys are trying desperately to turn back the clock to a “previous” view of women and men that they perceive to be more Godly. But guess what? THAT THIS TIME EVER EXISTED IS A FANTASY. — Sad Observer
I’ve said before, the Godly Golden Age of the 1950s was not the REAL 1950s, but a MYTHIC 1950s According to Ozzie, Harriet, and Donna Reed.
And the Godly Golden Age before that (think Little House on the Prairie) was pretty rough. (Aside: Those “Prairie Dresses” you see the Godly wearing are NOT period; they’re the 1950s Hollywood costume department recut of the actual “Prairie Dress.”) There’s this little place in the Black Hills only a couple hundred miles from that Little House on the Prairie — “WELCOME TO F-IN DEADWOOD!”
Diane – You’re probably right that the “crumpling” of Driscoll, and, possibly, Piper, were not spontaneous. But, in a way, I think that makes it even worse. They planned ahead of time not to really challenge Jakes and Warren. If so, it makes their claims to manliness even more bogus.
Trina – I liked all of your comments, but the first one really made my day.
I’m enjoying reading the female pov on these issues. Someone mentioned that she doesn’t have to prove she’s a “real woman” – she just is. So men should feel that way about their masculinity.
I think things are changing somewhat, but, as a baby boomer, I can tell you that as soon as a boy was old enough to understand, he got the message from his parents, his society, and, later, his peers, that he had to prove his “maleness.” Just being male wasn’t enough. And losing to a girl, particularly something involving physical strength or ability, was a fate worse than death. I’m exaggerating, but not by much.
Most boys, I think, grew out of this mindset, but not without difficulty, because the cultural messages were so pervasive. It’s possible that someone like John Piper, who is close to my age, never fully got past it. Driscoll certainly hasn’t. And, I have to say, many women (unlike, it seems, the women who are commenting here) bought into this mindset also, and were quick to ridicule men who didn’t fit the “real man” view of masculinity.
In our society, at least, it’s doubtful that the stereotypes will ever completely fade away. Even though there are representations of women today, in, say, the media, that were unthinkable decades ago, the image of the “real man” doesn’t only reappear with the latest James Bond movie. But I think (hope) that boys today don’t have to learn that their masculinity is continually threatened.
This so irritates me. Gender roles drive me nuts, because, well, they can’t be equated to one’s sexual orientation or sexuality. When my brother was a kid, he appropriated my sister’s “Tubsy” doll and it was his constant companion for a couple of years. He’s definitely not homosexual, not that there’s anything wrong with being gay in my mind, but playing with a doll is not going to make you gay. I, on the other hand, requested chemistry sets and telescopes and so on when I was a kid. I was definitely not a girly girl. But I grew up and while I still love my science, I can also knit a sweater and make a quilt. (I can also spin wool into a skein of yarn too, for that matter.) And I’m heterosexual as well. But I don’t have time for makeup and I wear slacks because they’re comfortable and I’m less likely to inadvertently expose my underwear than if I’m wearing a dress.
And I’m not very likely to darken the door of a church any time soon because the church in general seems very invested in trying to impose particular gender roles upon men and women, and as a woman entering middle age, I’m not in the mood to put up with stupidity masquerading itself as “Godly gender roles.” Pfffth.
“It seems to me that what really bothered men is when women started moving into the THINKING realm”
Bingo! No problem when it consisted of picking cotton or growing vegetable crops. But when it concerns being a doctor, stockbroker, etc then she is neglecting the family.
JeffB–
“They planned ahead of time not to really challenge Jakes and Warren. If so, it makes their claims to manliness even more bogus.”
Agree! Seems to be MacDonald claimed ER2 was going to be this big–hey, we are going to get together like brothers, even if we don’t agree, and we’re gonna hash this thing out like brothers-no crouching behind walls for us. Remember that rather angry sounding promo video? But I don’t think the ER2 participants/brothers were as far apart as they wanted us to believe.
Bingo! No problem when it consisted of picking cotton or growing vegetable crops. But when it concerns being a doctor, stockbroker, etc then she is neglecting the family.
There seems to be an unspoken rule in some Christian circles. “Okay, if she has to work, I guess it’s okay, but she darned well better not actually like it. And it better not pull down a big salary, lest her husband feels emasculated.”
Diane – You’re probably right that the “crumpling” of Driscoll, and, possibly, Piper, were not spontaneous. But, in a way, I think that makes it even worse. They planned ahead of time not to really challenge Jakes and Warren. If so, it makes their claims to manliness even more bogus. — JeffB
If so, then by their own Masculine definition (and prison gang rape terminology), Jakes and Warren “made a woman” out of Driscoll and Piper.
And seriously, does MD have 3 testicles? He seems to have a worse testosterone lobotomy than many of his kind…& by his kind I mean adolescents, in which I specialise, professionally. — BeakerJ
He THINKS he does. (And if you don’t agree 1000%, he’ll order his “armorbearers” to Beat You Up.
Um, but I think men are made for combat, men are made for conflict, men are made for dominion. — B.J.Driscoll
The way of The Draka, in the words of a pudgy cage-fight fanboy.
Kind of off-topic, but I always find it interesting how the macho guys (Christian and non-Christian) always point to fighting as the toughest of sports. I don’t think it is. In terms of the skills needed to really be good and competitive, I’d put gymnastics – that ‘girls sport’ – at the top. I did gymnastics for a few years as a kid, and the strength, flexibility, and co-ordination required is like nothing else. I’d like to see these guys try and do a backflip or the splits.
Re: Pam
Beside the skills required, female gymnasts are, pound for pound, probably the strongest athletes.
I had a friend in college who could do the iron cross — pulling yourself up to a cross position on the rings and holding it — and then pulled his legs up to a 90 degree angle. It is an incredible show of strength in the arms, chest, shoulders and abdomen. And, btw, he was as gay in his sexual orientation as anyone I have ever met. No one would ever challenge him in a fight, because with his strength he could take your head off.
Being “masculine” has little to do with sexual orientation. It is a protective myth. Many men who are unsure of their sexual capabilities or orientation react by becoming hyper masculine — body building, sports, etc.
When I lived in DC, one of my acquaintances was a former NFL player who had suffered a debilitating injury in a game and could no longer play, but who had been a real tough guy or the field. His orientation — gay.
As one who has never experienced any sexual desire toward anyone of my own gender, I do not know that I will ever understand what that experience is like for those who do. But then again, since I became engaged to my wife, I have never experienced any sexual desire for anyone but her. To me it is all relational. So I do not understand a man who cheats on his spouse either.
Gotta disagree on gymnastics being the toughest sport – I would say that *and* all martial arts (and I do NOT mean “mixed martial arts,” which has next to nothing to do with actual martial arts).
Yesterday I spent a while watching a docu with plenty of footage of people competing at a martial arts championship held in China. It’s SO not about beating people up; it’s about grace, strength, speed (in some cases), etc.
Some of the most outstanding competitors were 12-16 year-old girls.
There was even a small, pudgy boy who was remarkable.
Take that, MD and Piper!
I studied the Martial Arts in Oklahoma City (earned a brown belt). The one thing our instructor continually emphasized was, your first line of defense was to walk away. Only fight if there is no other alternative. He has instructed for over 30 years; holds several black belts in various disciplines; and has never been in a fight (on the street). The one thing that compels these guys to fight in front of crowds? PRIDE.
Pam – I commented on this earlier (gymnastics), but posted on the wrong thread.
Yes, gymnastics (for both genders) is really tough; so are actual martial arts. (NOT so-called “mixed martial arts,” which has almost nothing to do – imo – with traditional Chinese martial arts.)
I was watching some competition footage from China yesterday, and marveling at the grace – as well as strength and control – required of all martial arts competitors, male and female.
The 12-16 year-old girls were really amazing, and then there was a somewhat pudgy boy (about 10-12, I’m guessing) who was pretty amazing.
numo –
We had tai chi as a sport at my school, which I did for one year and that was hard. I haven’t really done much other martial arts (I did tae kwon do for about 6 weeks but didn’t like the teachers so quit), but I’ll agree they’re pretty tough. There’s a lot of similarity in skills between them and gymnastics, actually. Both martial arts and gymnastics rely not just on strength but on how you control and use that strength, as well as a real emphasis on balance and flexibility.
Oh, and I just have to share this video I saw about a month ago: this gymnast is an 86 year old woman. She’s absolutely amazing.
86 year old Gymnast
My daughters are multiple-level blackbelts.
My thirdborn joined the Marines right after Sept. 11 and she was put in a situation a couple of times in which she dispatched male Marine martial arts instructors.
You would never know by looking at her, however, she is thin and pretty and isn’t inclined to intentionally hurt anyone. She broke someone’s arm playing rugby and couldn’t finish the game, there is no violence in her and will, because of her karate training and background moral compass from growing up, walk away from a potential fight.
My initial resistance to this patriocentric heresy was due to the reality that faced me; I did not want this for my daughters!
Thank God they have grown up in and have created for themselves homes in which we are all heirs in Christ and treat one another with mutual respect.
To Our Readers
I am back and want to thank Deb for bearing the brunt of things this last week. Spending time with these young medical and dental students who are Christians gives me great hope for the next generation. They are far less focused on the “cool” doctrines or celebrities and much more focused on combatting the difficulties inherent in rights of conscience and serving the poor. I shall get caught up today. Interestingly, I found myself often wondering about the discussions and E Church. You all have become an important part of my life.
Pam,
That was an incredible video of the 86 year old gymnast. Thanks for sharing it!
“NEWSINGEN: Tronic-Blood-Bathed N’ Church-Bored?”
Is bloodsport and twisted-testicles, the Testament of The New Church Order? Is generation Nintendo, “bathed in tronic-blood, bored now with a ‘bebop church’-” a legend of nonsensical spiritual syllables”, upping the ante?
hmmm…
Comic refief: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfKxpmnAFRw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
could b
(sadface)
S㋡py
I have one very girly girl who is smart, confident and loves the Lord. She is naturally beautiful and loves to shop, buy clothes, wear makeup etc. She wants to be a family therapist and worship leader.
I have one tomboy who is fiercely independent and brilliant and loves to do sports and other traditionally “boy” activities.
So one of your daughters is a Rarity and the other is a Rainbow Dash? Things must get interesting when the two of them are together.