Thank you ladies for getting this information out for people to read. Admittedly, you have helped me since I left an Acts 29 member church that was/is very good at treating women as second class citizens (subtly at first, but don the scarlet letter after a bit) among other problems.

I find it interesting that a whole 10% of attendees are women. This is most definitely not representative of women in the church or as a measure of population.

Keep up the great work, we need people like you bringing light to these dark situations.

For me, the word “Grace”. The guys and I do mean guys talk a good game, but grace is for them and not for others. Particularly if you have any different view of the Bible than they do.

They do not think they are in need of grace. How can this be?

Too many times grace is just a substitute word for legalism.

Re: the Complementarianism: Essential or Expendable video… (Which, BTW, made me seasick with all the bobbing heads…)

I don’t remember if it was Deb or Dee, but one of you asked in a comment somewhere what it was about your egalitarian marriage of mutual respect and submission that was contributing to the downfall of our culture and the church. I’ve thought about that question every day since because I haven’t seen that come up anywhere else. (Sorry I can’t link to it. There are too many comments to keep track of!)

I don’t believe anyone gave an answer and for good reason. There isn’t one. A man and woman committed to God and each other in marriage who live sacrificially for each other can do no harm to the culture or the church. It’s just absurd to think otherwise.

I’m working on a post about this because it really drives home the point of how this militant patriarchy/comp should not be a divisive issue in the church. But a segment is making it one. They would refuse to fellowship with you and me over this one issue even though we are sisters in Christ.

Sad.

Thanks Deb. I feel so much closer to these commenters than I ever did in my church. I always felt like an outsider.

Hey, I have an idea. Why don’t WE rent a HUGE stadium and all the commenters here, Wade, you guys, all of us, hold our own “conference”. Wow, just imagine how God could work thru that!!!!

“All human evil comes from a single cause, man’s inability to sit still in a room.”
-Blaise Pascal

Could someone please remind CJ Mahaney of this! Those clips make me nervous!!!

(Sorry….a bit off point 🙂 )

Deb and Randall Slack,

I would love to see a post about the age disparity among these churches. The young are supposed to learn from older more seasoned people who have walked the faith through trials, tribulations, joys, and life’s ups and downs. Having the humility and wisdom to learn from these people is a gift and a privilege. Something that is MISSING in these younger churches where the pastors’ and elders’ oldest child is 12.

They have not experienced life, (although I am not looking down on them for their age, but living through trials where you are compressed like coal will reveal whether these people are diamonds or junk), and therefore are limited to speak with reliable Biblical wisdom.

“I do wonder how many Christians are following them.”

Then Dave writes “young elders”

I have thought about the youth aspect to this NC movement quite a bit. It is a problem that the youth following these men want to be “pastors” as in elders right away. They are doing it, for the most part, by planting churches instead of going to work IN an established church. And this is what the T4G guys support. It is kind of scary when you think about it. These arrogant, angry, restless young men with power and position in a church. I shudder to think of the devastation from this in the next 10 years or so. Just look at the devastation brought about by Driscoll. One guy who was affirmed and promoted by many celebs and his tentacles with his bizarre doctrine are far reaching!

How many of the Mormon “missionary” guys on bikes who come to your door are “older”? Yet, they wear name tags that say “elder” on them. They usually have pimples but are branded “elders”.

You take this thinking with a lot of what has been taught about women over at CBMW (such as submission to men in heaven and women’s specific roles), the ESS some were promoting a few years back, and the Mormonish parallels are astonishing!

How about comps “creating” the servant-leader husband to describe their interpretation of headship. Neither words are biblical, but see how they weave it into their agenda:

“On the Day of Judgment, when you must give an account to God, will he say to you: “Well done my good and faithful servant-leader husband.” Or will He rebuke you for being a dictator-husband which is contrary to what He outlined in His word? The choice is yours. I highly recommend that you choose to be a servant-leader husband.”

http://www.spwickstrom.com/servant/

Thanks, Deb!

Only 10% of the women are attending because the rest of these mens wives are at home, taking care of the brood, hearth & home with nary a whine or complaint – because, after all, it is taught in those circles that a woman taking time for herself to get away (even with her husband) would be SELFISH and wrong.

Trust me, I know this. I lived it for awhile. And it was the very reason I became nearly suicidally depressed. 🙁

When it comes to the wrong teaching about comp doctrine, here is an excellent blog post about it:

http://jamaljivanjee.com/category/book-reviews/whats-with-paul-women-by-jon-zens/

the comments are so interesting. So many take the metaphorical teaching of Eph 5 way too far. As the blog host asks: Is the wife to “worship” the husband as we are to worship Christ as the Body? The metaphor is wrongly taught as:

Husband-Christ

Wife-Church

they deny this but it is the only logical outcome of how they teach this passage.

How about “Bible Blogbusters?”

Absolutely Deb 🙂 I live about an hour from there!

True Words –

Thanks for sharing a bit of your story. I, too, would like to see your story written up on a post. You never know who might read it and have their eyes opened. I also totally understand if you don’t want to go down that road again now, or ever! God is ever faithful . . .

BTW – I love your pictures. They remind me of the Midwest. Thanks for posting them 🙂

This may be a bit of a rabbit trail, but I think it might help explain some of the mindset leading to the problematic thinking in today’s Calvinista crowd:

http://frted.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/free-will-2/

Basically, Fr Ted has been doing a series on a couple of books exploring the human brain (mind, soul, self-awareness, and so on). These are not from a Christian perspective, per se. Today, he looks into the question of Free Will. There is a sense in which humans, having the idea of “free will” ensures our continuance as a species. By NOT having free will, (quote):

“Vohs and Schooler suggested that disbelief in free will produces a subtle cue that exerting effort is futile, thus granting permission not to bother. People prefer not to bother, because bothering, in the form of self-control, requires exertion and depletes energy. Further investigation along these lines by Florida State University social psychologists Roy Baumeister, E. J. Masicampo, and C. Nathan DeWall found that reading deterministic passages increased tendencies of the people they studied to act aggressively and to be less helpful toward others. They suggest that a belief in free will may be crucial for motivating people to control their automatic impulses to act selfishly, and a significant amount of self-control and mental energy is required to override selfish impulses and to restrain aggressive impulses. The mental state supporting the idea of voluntary actions had an effect on the subsequent action decision. It seems that not only do we believe we control our actions, but it is good for everyone to believe it.” (Gazzaniga, Kindle Loc. 1831-40)”

Okay. So reading this as a Believer, I am struck by this: by exercising my ability to form choices informed by Christ’s teachings and His example, I want to over-ride my fallen nature and to help people; to submit myself to the will of the Father, and to be holy as He is holy. Whereas, in Calvinista teaching, it’s not so much submission to God, as submission to the doctrines which begin with “total depravity” and rely upon “election”…the idea that I do not have “free will” but exactly the opposite: that a Sovereign God has already determined not only all my life choices, but my eternal salvation. Anything and everything I do is already decided and cannot be changed. Therefore, I am either blessed or damned accordingly.

So why bother???

The age disparity is huge in churches that believe this. When I look at my brother’s church, half of the people there went to college with us and all are under 35 (I’ve only been a few times, so I might have missed any older people who show up, other than my Mom). I think it is because young people lack experience of life (all the ups and downs), that the Calvinistas are able to sway them. Young people tend to be more idealistic and these churches are using that to advance their theology. I’m interested to hear what other people think on this matter.

As for the role of women in churches (and the world) – after a discussion under a previous article, I started looking around the internet for more on women’s role in Christianity and found something fascinating:

“The biblical description in the Book of Genesis outlines the truth about the consequences of man’s sin, as it is shown by the disturbance of that original relationship between man and woman which corresponds to their individual dignity as persons. A human being, whether male or female, is a person, and therefore, “the only creature on earth which God willed for its own sake”; and at the same time this unique and unrepeatable creature “cannot fully find himself except through a sincere gift of self”. Here begins the relationship of “communion” in which the “unity of the two” and the personal dignity of both man and woman find expression. Therefore when we read in the biblical description the words addressed to the woman: “Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you” (Gen 3:16), we discover a break and a constant threat precisely in regard to this “unity of the two” which corresponds to the dignity of the image and likeness of God in both of them. But this threat is more serious for the woman, since domination takes the place of “being a sincere gift” and therefore living “for” the other: “he shall rule over you”. This “domination” indicates the disturbance and loss of the stability of that fundamental equality which the man and the woman possess in the “unity of the two”: and this is especially to the disadvantage of the woman, whereas only the equality resulting from their dignity as persons can give to their mutual relationship the character of an authentic “communio personarum”. While the violation of this equality, which is both a gift and a right deriving from God the Creator, involves an element to the disadvantage of the woman, at the same time it also diminishes the true dignity of the man.” – Pope John Paul II in a letter titled Dignity of Women, 1988

Did you catch that? A man seeking to rule over women diminishes his own dignity as well as hers! What the Calvinistas are doing is reducing their own dignity!

I also found this quote from the Second Vatican Council (1960s):
“The hour is coming, in fact has come, when the vocation of women is being acknowledged in its fullness, the hour in which women acquire in the world an influence, an effect and a power never hitherto achieved. That is why, at this moment when the human race is undergoing so deep a transformation, women imbued with a spirit of the Gospel can do so much to aid humanity in not falling”.

The hour has come for women to hold more influence in the world than ever before – I like this much better than what the Calvinistas are teaching!

Happy Easter, everyone!

Scooter’s Mom, I’ll be in prayer for your sister who has cancer.

This whole “complementarianism” thingie has always struck me as more than a bit silly. Think about it: it’s perfectly fine for those dreaded witchy women to teach Sunday school to male yoots while they’re still in the larval stage, but at some magical point of adolescence–perhaps when their voices change, or they’re sneaking Luckies out back behind the ballfield dugout–it’s suddenly wrong to teach them.

I’ll bet the Calvinistas would dearly love to know exactly what that magical set point is; it would make things so much easier for them to get their pointy little skulls around.

I laugh now, but at the time it was horrific:

We had gotten one of these bully preachers. He was quite vociferous in supporting the SBC trouncing of the TNIV over gender accurate language. He strongly supported the use of the generic male.

So, after church one Sunday, I raised the issue that if we followed his logic, that wherever the male was used, it really meant male and female.

Which would open up the pastorate to women.

Ever see spit fly from a red face that only a few minutes before was preaching the gospel?

Still, logically, his logic failed him.

Deb:

I often wonder how many of these men are going to horribly mess up other people’s lives and also have their lives fall apart when this mess they believe and preach does not work for them and others.

Deb:

I think the power or potential power intoxicates these young guys. Also IMHO these guys have all book knowledge and little to no real world experience and they are just going to mess others and themselves up.

Misnomer alert: many (if not most) uses of the word “pastor”, especially when preceded by “head” or “executive”.

Anon 1 wrote:

“Read with our Western eyes that view leadership as more like the Greek chain of being or the Romanish military structure, (Jesus referred to this as the Gentile system) we totally miss the true meaning. It is best not to use it at all. It would take away the glam, though, to only be referred to as a “servant”. And it is not at all what most of these guys are, anyway.”

My life requires much, much more servanthood of me than I ever expected it would. My severely autistic son requires constant care, and will need that same level of care throughout his life – or maybe more, as he becomes more aggressive. I have had to lay down all expectation of ever doing what I thought I would do with my life when I was in my twenties.

Much of what I need to do now does fall within traditional female gender roles, but whenever I hear or read complementarian reasoning for what I already have to do, it makes me chafe. I am struggling with being a decent housekeeper and being a good mom, and everything about complementarian theology makes it ten times worse.

What Anon 1 wrote above makes me think of two servants who give me courage: Henri Nouwen, who left his prestigious career in theology and academia to take care of Adam, a young man with severe disabilities; and Brother Lawrence, who wrote:

“Possessed thus entirely with the greatness and the majesty of this infinite Being, I went straightaway to the place that duty had marked out for me – the kitchen.”

I yelped with laughter when I read that, and then I cried a little.

These men (MEN!) have shown me that the way of Jesus is indeed servanthood laid bare. We can’t hyphenate it with anything else to make it more palatable.

Now I need to go wipe a bum…

I have never been to Together for the Gospel, but my pastor goes and really enjoys it.

I believe it is appropriate for these 4 to call their meeting “Together for the Gospel” because, as I understand it, they come together to proclaim the Gospel – that Christ came and died for our sins according to the scripture and that he was raised from the dead (I think that’s the definition of Gospel in I Cor 15).

At any rate, my understanding is that is the focus of the meeting.

The fact that these guys have other shared convictions, some of which I agree with and some of which I don’t, is really no big deal. They are there to talk about the Gospel.

If a group of Methodists or Charismatics met and had a meeting about the Gospel, and they affirmed I Cor 15, they would be affirming the Gospel, even though they hold other distinctives that I would not agree with.

I would agree that they met about the Gospel, even though they also may have discussed the particulars that they share.

Things would have to go a lot further for me to say that this group or that was not believing or affirming the Gospel or gathering together for its proclamation.

My dearest Rene, My prayers are for you now. And remember, there are some REAL men out there. Like the ones you mentioned. As my dad used to say, Real leaders don’t have to tell you they are leaders.

Another scathingly glaring misnomer:

“We desire to love and see you … restored within the body. I speak these words in love with prayer for your restoration. I need confirmation by Wednesday…”

While restored and restoration are highly dubious, I take issue with the word “love”. If this is tough love, it’s been weirdly redefined a la youthful arrogance and ignorance. Among other things.

Deb:

My pastor is just shy of 50.

I hear what you are saying. But I frankly don’t get that from these guys. I get that they are convictional about a lot of things.

But Dever (or it may have been Mohler) who preached a sermon on the difference between the Gospel and implications of the Gospel. And that it is really important not to confuse the Gospel with what we may recognize to be implications of the Gospel.

On the gender issue, for example, I don’t believe that these guys preach or believe that what a person believes about that affects the Gospel or whether a person is saved. I really can’t find that in their teaching, though I agree they think it is important.

And on the Young Earth stuff, which you know that I do not agree with, I have heard Mohler himself say that is an area where Christians can disagree and still work with one another.

I really do get your point – that these guys are making these issues bigger than they should be.

But I cannot find where they get the Gospel wrong or confuse the Gospel with these other issues.

My in-laws were raised Lutheran and RCA and were both baptized as infants. They are founding members of a RCA church and have been in that congregation for 40+ years.

A few years back the church was in a state of upheaval and the preaching was weak. They started attending a Baptist church in the evening because they really appreciated the preaching and teaching by the pastor. They were told that in order to become members of the Baptist church they would have to be baptized by immersion. Even though they had already been baptized and believed their baptisms were valid, they would have to be baptized again.

As someone who grew up Baptist, this gave me much pause for thought. Here are two people who have followed Christ and served the church faithfully for decades. Yet they were told they could not become members of a congregation because their baptisms were invalid and not done “correctly.” In order to become members, they would have to deny their previous baptisms and violate their conscience.

Ever since then, I have thought much about Gospel Plus – the Gospel + any secondary matter that determine whether you may be in fellowship with other believers.

T4G may not formally say they practice Gospel Plus, but the reality is that they do. They have selected a set of parameters that must be met to be a part of their group. Baptism, interestingly enough, is not one of them. But complementarianism is. They are willing to not fellowship with other believers over this teaching.

Anyone who doesn’t realize how profound this is… think about the denominational squabbles of the past hundred years and then contemplate that for T4G complementarianism is considered more important than any of the other secondary matters that have divided believers. It is a core principle of their organization.

And I’d bet the farm that they will only get more hardlined on this issue in the years to come.

Deb – I think your use of “gullible” is absolutely on target. I know that I was pretty gullible when I was young (and relatively new in faith).

As for age divides, I’ve seen that in quite a few independent churches and denoms (like SGM and the churches I used to attend). There’s barely a grey hair to be seen… and there’s such a HUGE emphasis on family and child-bearing that all who are single (older, not kids), widowed or divorced get lost in the shuffle, if not outright ignored.

It hurts. I used to feel a great deal of pain because it seemed like I was a 2nd-class citizen (not being married, and not having kids), and I know others who feel (or felt) pretty much the same.

Someone once tried to make me feel better by telling me that I could have “spiritual” children. He meant well (he was a fellow church musician and a friend), but hearing that made me want to burst into tears on the spot. (He is married and had one child at the time.)

*

Lynne – great post!

*

I never thought about some of the fun misnomers that were placed at the end of this post…! : )

Sallie,

“And I’d bet the farm that they will only get more hardlined on this issue in the years to come.”

I agree. Considering Wayne Grudem’s statements, there is no other alternative:

“I am surprised that this controversy has gone on so long. …I expected the entire church would be persuaded, the battle for the purity of the church would be won, and egalitarian advocates would be marginalized and have no significant influence. But it has not completely happened yet!

I still believe it will happen. …But on this issue Christ’s purification process is taking much longer than I expected!

The issue of manhood and womanhood has become one of the focal points of a much larger controversy over whether the Bible will reign supreme over cultural pressures ……In the near future, I expect that this controversy increasingly will become the focal point of the larger realignment in the entire evangelical world between those for whom the Bible is still the ultimate authority and those for whom it is not.”

(from “Personal Reflections on the History of CBMW and the State of the Gender Debate”, mentioned in TWW 3-16-2012 post)

Did the video clips remind anyone of the Brady Bunch show opener? Or possibly Hollywood Squares?

Sallie:

That is a great story.

But that is true for all denominations. There are some doctrines that one must agree to follow that are not part of the Gospel, but they are important enough to that group to make it a requirement before joining.

That is true for Catholics, Lutherans, and almost every denomination or non-denominational church that I know of.

I think that the balance is being able to recognize that these things are not core to the Gospel (e.g. Baptists believe in the Priesthood of the believer – it is not part of the Gospel), but that they are important in varying degrees to people. For example, some people would never affirm the idea of elders and want a more democratic polity and that would be VERY important to them.

So we recognize that these things are not part of the Gospel, but that they important to people.

They just should not be so important that we lose all perspective.

How to maintain a doctrine that is not part of the Gospel but is important, and maintain it in a loving spirit without compromising on what one believes about truth is a challenge.

I am not sure any of us ever really get there.

Whoever posted the quote from Grudem – that is priceless!

I may agree with Grudem on the theological issue, but I do not share his irrational exuberance about people embracing his view.

Who can tell where the church will go?

The gender issue is the least of my concerns. It’s pretty obvious that there are going to be comp and egal churches into the next millenium. Whatever side one is on, that’s the way it will be and we (including Grudem) are being naive if we believe otherwise.

There are so many other really important issues affecting the church.

The nature of scripture is still a huge issue. The role of the church in matters of authority (all along the spectrum of the Catholic view (co-equal or even greater than scripture) to of no consequence) is an important issue.

And even if we get the nature of scripture and the role of the church straight, there are issues where it seems some segments of Christianity are prepared to wholesale ignore the text. Sexuality is one of those areas. The culture of the first century, the difference between the Jews and NT Christianity on this issue vs. the gentiles could not be further apart. But now we have segments of the church adopting the gentile position essentially.

The relationship of the Christian to the State, and the usurpation of the Church by the State is a huge issue that will resurface.

The are bunches of others.

But one thing is for certain. In the West, there will be churches of every stripe and belief.

We all had better get used to that.

Anonymous,

you said,

“(e.g. Baptists believe in the Priesthood of the believer – it is not part of the Gospel)”

So, the average person needs a human mediator to be made right with Christ? If I’m misunderstanding you, please clarify.

Fair enough Seeker. I do not mean to imply ALL as in every single one but I am coming from an organization heavily influenced by some of these men and they have done some damage. Some try to imply that the people who don’t seem to agree with them are not submitting to the Gospel but, often these people are actually seeking for some Good News some where in all this. The Good News of the Gospel lasts long enough for you to make that profession of faith and from their it becomes a nightmare. I know because I was part of groups where several people in the “discipleship” group wandered around not sure if they were saved or not because in their theology good news cannot be freely pronounced. I know that you will say that maybe these people needed to be questioning if they were saved or not but at the final analysis, if someone is questioning their salvation isn’t that the opportunity one should use to speak the Gospel i.e. good news of Christ’s salvation for even their sin? Someone anxious about their salvation clearly isn’t happy in his or her sin. They want an advocate yet, in many of these paradigms they don’t hear about an advocate because the group leaders are being the accusers and like to withhold the advocate until they are sure that you are sure that you are really repentant and not fake repentant. AGGHHHHH !!!! It is awful!

I am sorry that I lumped people into a group that shouldn’t be there but I have met too many people who come from the Piper/Mahaney camp that behave in this manner. I will say that I have found those in the Keller/Carson camp to be quite charitable and I myself have read things by Keller and do not find the Calvinista rabidness in his writings. I see a man who loves Christ because while he is still a sinner Christ loves him. I will try better in the future not to lump everyone in one giant T4G category.

That Grudem quote offers enough material for ten posts alone. But the idea that someone doesn’t view the Bible as their ultimate authority if they are not comp… That’s just so wrong and misleading.

Re: what the pastors are being taught re: men and women at T4G, it does matter. If they embrace and teach ideas like what we see in Grudem’s quote, what will those young pastors think when they discover a couple in their church is egalitarian? According to Grudem, that view is something that needs to be eradicated from the church. So what does the young pastor think of this essentially heretical couple? If this is a doctrine that needs to be eliminated from the church, then that couple either has to change or leave. That’s what is basically being said. There is no room for difference of opinion. So the young pastor either gets them to change their mind or marginalizes them. We’ve already seen stories like that here at TWW.

I agree with Seeker that spiritual maturity does not necessarily correspond to age. I’ve known spiritually mature believers in their early thirties that I would have zero problem leading a church. And I’ve witnessed childish pastors in their fifties and beyond.

Anonymous – The problem I have with the denominational dividing line is that I find it very hard to justify from Scripture. It should be that we preach Christ and Him crucified. Maybe it is my advancing years, but I have less patience for things that divide Christians when their salvation doesn’t depend on it.

By way of another example… We were looking into preschools and there was a Lutheran one in our neighborhood. But when I read about the church, I knew I could never send my daughter there. Why? If we visited the church we would be refused communion. I understand that Lutherans have very specific views about communion. But the idea that they would educate my child and yet refuse me communion even though I am their sister in Christ… I could not accept that.

Anonymous – The gender issue may be the least of your concerns, but for many women it is of very great concern. While you listed important concerns, the gender issue deals with the very nature of women, who they are in Christ, who they are in the church, etc. I don’t think it gets any more fundamental than that which defines the very existence of over half the church. I don’t mean to sound overly dramatic, but on behalf of all the women in the church with what are traditionally considered male gifts… I had to reply to that comment.

Yes the overuse of the term “gospel” by the Calvinista crowed is definitely a puzzling misnomer. Especially since the “gospel” these guys proclaim is actually probably the worst news imaginable.

They hide their horrific gospel behind the magic curtain Mahaney likes to call “deep theological waters”. That’s code for: “You are all idiots and far too stupid to understand this stuff that’s why you need me to tell you what to believe.”

In front of the magic curtain they point to a god of grace, but then hiding behind is none other than Molech, salivating at the prospect of torching his hated offspring for eternity. They actually prefer Molech and would like to spend most of their time exploring the deep miseries therein but people might catch on to that. So they use the god in front of the magic curtain to entice the unsuspecting into their trap and then every so often they pull back the curtain in order to generate some of that “healthy” godly fear. They figured out that healthy godly fear has a beneficial effect on cash flow.

All of this “Calvinista gospel stuff” has absolutely nothing to do with the actual good news that Jesus proclaimed. The simple message that every man, woman, and child that has ever lived can understand and experience.

I want to vomit whenever I hear these guys talk about gospel this and gospel that.

Anonymous,

It’s inconceivable to me that a believer would minimize the importance of the gender issue in the church. To discount anyone’s problems, pain, and/or injustices as “the least important” shows a lack of empathy and compassion. I hope that those who have daughters will eventually have a greater comprehension of gender inequality when their dreams and aspirations are denied them for no other reason than their physical form.

I sincerely pray the Lord will give you a greater sensitivity and understanding in this area.

Robin,

Thanks for your response. I do get where you are coming from. It is tragic to hear that any Pastor would marginilize/abuse someone who was in the place you mentioned, and I have met church leaders over the years who fit that category because of all different reasons, including those who fall in the Piper camp.

Too many do not practice the same grace and mercy that was bestowed upon themselves to these hurting people…and that is a tragedy.

In light of that, I can understand your response. I did not think you or anyone on this blog were implying all at the conference were like that, but I felt the conversation about T4G and those that attended was starting to become “all encompassing”. Just wanted to add that there are some good people who go to these events, and give some examples of some that I think are there.

Thanks again for your gracious response. I sincerely hope more pastors return from this conference with a heart filled with the “GOSPEl” which should compel them to a heart of MERCY and GRACE, rather than return with the kind of careless leadership that you mentioned in your post. I hope they prove to all of us that the GOSPEL was at the forefront of their hearts and discussion. In short, I hope the good far exceeds the bad.

Robin, you have nothing to be sorry for. Those of us who had the misfortune of being in an A29 “church” fully get the undercurrents and know what’s going on. Seeker wants to point out that not every one of the X thousand people in attendance is like that. So what? The point is that the overwhelming majority of them are, and that’s precisely why we’re sounding the alarm.

Here’s a good analogy. You and I and others here pointing out how far U.S. students are falling behind the rest of the world in math and science scores. Then Seeker comes along and says “Yes, but the kid who lives next door to me is getting A’s in advanced match and science classes.”

Alan, I get it that stereotypes aren’t always fair. I just recognize that many men and women intertwined in these organizations cannot be charitable to others. I actually think many WANT to be but, they are afraid because they may then become compromising on these issues that most would consider secondary.

A perfect example is my best friend and her husband are missionaries in the Middle East. They were at my wedding and she and I were picking out scripture to read. I had a NIV bible and the passage was from Ecclesiastes. I can’t remember the whole passage but it was talking about a cord not being broken. It took me a second to figure out what it was saying (it was talking about two who embrace God cannot be broken) at any rate, Calvinista missionary guy says to me the night before my wedding in all seriousness. “Your problem is that you aren’t using an ESV.” I just stared at him not quite sure what he was talking about. My friend told me in private “don’t listen to him.” But, I am sure that she was in the wrong since she told me her husband might be incorrect. (Sarcasm) See, it is things like this example that happen over and over and over again in these circles. I am left at the end of the day thinking okay clearly the whole lot is being taught this. It is like the Wizard Oz being found out and he still is saying “don’t look at the man behind the curtain.” I keep seeing person after person behind the curtain but, I am told not to pay attention to him or her.

I do agree with Seeker that not all are like that. He is right. T4G is a random group of men. Therefore, it isn’t fair for me to lump everyone there with the Mahaney’s of the world.

RE: david on Tue, Apr 10 2012 at 07:27 pm:

You pretty much describe where I’m at so far as the Christian faith goes. I no longer subscribe to much of what the Medievals (Calvin & Luther) promulgated, and after a decade of research, I just don’t see it that way anymore. Same with the Augustinian approach, it just has no more resonance for me.

“…All of this “Calvinista gospel stuff” has absolutely nothing to do with the actual good news that Jesus proclaimed. The simple message that every man, woman, and child that has ever lived can understand and experience…”

Agreed, and Jesus himself had this to say on the subject:

“…But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in…”

elastigirl at 02:52 pm I got it — my favorite misnomer of the hour:
“As your pastor, I have asked you…. to come in to meet,…motivated by a desire to care for you and your family.”
(I’ll never get over this one — still)
Can anyone spot the scathing misnomer?
***********
My favorite as well!

Also, elastigirl at 03:43 pm
Another scathingly glaring misnomer:
“We desire to love and see you … restored within the body. I speak these words in love with prayer for your restoration. I need confirmation by Wednesday…”
**********
Don’t forget the threat of excommunication which follows….”Work toward ‘reconciliation’ or you will be removed from fellowship”.
Daffynition: “Reconciliation”: the process of severing all ties.
Daffynition: “Care”: Very young up-and-coming pastor ordering old washed-up degifted pastor ‘you vill go to “star chamber” and repent of sin of not accepting my request to discuss your grievances— or else!’

Alan,

Just a quick question……

How do you know the “overwhelming majority” of T4G attendees are as they have been described on here?

Do you fully know that? Where is your research? Are you attending this conference yourself and talking with the 8,000 plus people to know their character and hearts? Here is a thought too, many of these guys attending are not necessarily in A29 churches, so that doesn’t apply to everyone involved.

When you say overwhelming majority, I consider 5,000 or so people as that majority…is this what you consider? How certain are you that thousands are destructive as has been labeled on here? Here is the truth….your not certain. (but if you are, please show me the evidence of your certainty)..you have taken a few bad experiences of pastors you know, apparently an A29 church, and a few bad examples of leaders that are involved at T4G (Mahaney) and lump the “overwhelming majority” with them. Sorry, I am not willing to go there.

But please, go ahead and label all that you want. Sound the alarm loud and clear for this “overwhelming majority” you find to be so destructive.. (although you might find this alarm to be false for many) I could be mistaken, but here is the thing, if you are wrong…and unless you are certain about this overwhelming majority it is entirely probable you are, then you have just labeled, attacked, and stereotyped the character of thousands of people that you don’t even know.

Dee,

First of all,

I never said I fully agree with everything the comp doctrine teaches. I was simply pointing out THEIR perspective of why they find this doctrine important. I am not sure I agree with everything they say, but I don’t buy that they lump this into their teaching of the gospel.

I am glad you mentioned Platt in your post before, just wanted to point out that there is some good to this conference….thought you might want to know that since you appreciate one of the speakers on the panel there.

Finally, I want you to know that I DO care about those who have been spiritually abused in churches. I AM concerned with those who have suffered down this road. I have not felt the need to ask about those who have hurt, because you and Deb do a good job of explaining their plight. I don’t stand against you in this, so please don’t misunderstand my intentions. I have not ever been to the SGM survivor website you mentioned, but when I get a chance I will take a look. If you think I don’t care about this problem, then you are sadly mistaken, and labeling me into a category that I don’t belong. And just because spiritual abuse is not the focus of this conference does not mean that these people who are going, or even all the panel speakers could care less about spiritual abuse or the pain that their church members experience. The topics of messages are on the T4G website, and I noticed some messages about Jesus, Missions, didn’t see any about being Pastors being unappreciated…

“It is the worst type of Christian that uses God’s bride to build their own empire with the name of Jesus. Jesus harshest words were for the religious leaders who exalted themselves through the use of the Church. But the temptations of this world are powerful and even a man anchored in his identity to Christ can slowly have that identity eroded away by the desire for fame, wealth and power. It can turn even the best people into monsters.

“And to the outsider, the unbeliever, the skeptic it appears grotesque and absurd. It ruins the Church’s credibility and does irreparable harm to the Church’s effectiveness. Church in America has been type cast as judgmental and phony. With it’s huckster televangelists, it’s ridiculous stars like Benny Hinn using the Holy Spirit to knock people over like a frickin Jedi Knight and ultimately by its ineffectual culture. Secular society knows very well that Christians are not powerful agents of Christ’s love, they know that Christians are self righteous, judgmental pricks. And they know that Christians don’t behave any different that the rest of society.

“And the church’s biggest stars are its biggest problem. They have bastardized the Church’s perceived integrity nearly beyond repair.”

http://twocleareyes.blogspot.com/2012/04/signs-of-age-to-come.html
/

Hello, I just wanted to introduce myself and tell you how much I appreciate your blog. I love the fact that you ladies engage so intelligently with Christianity, something I never felt I could do do when I used to attend church. Actually, in my first two churches I was able to ask questions of the ministers and they’d make a great effort to answer no matter how difficult or complicated the question was. They were churches of traditional denominations. Then I started going to a charismatic/evangelical church. It wasn’t so much that I couldn’t ask questions there; it was more that intellectual understanding was so undervalued that even if an answer could be found, no one would think it important to find it. We were taught lots of things that now I look back upon and think ‘Why did I believe that? Where is the justification for that belief?’. It’s been eye-opening to think about things for myself, on my own, without the influence of a church culture telling me what to believe.

I used to go to a church that taught the ‘covering’ doctrine and also used the G12 system. I don’t know if you know of it but it’s basically a discipleship model, originating with Cesar Castellanos in Colombia, that bears a great deal of similarity to shepherding. It emphasises submission, accountability and the need for a ‘covering’ (curiously enough, Castellanos himself didn’t seem to need a ‘covering’ – he was at the very peak of the pyramid, so I suppose he must be the only human who has Christ Himself as a ‘covering’. No one ever explained that to us). I always felt totally out of place there and knowing that I was supposed to be ‘leading the multitudes’ made me feel so under pressure, so inadequate and miserable. There was no room at my church for any other giftings or forms of evangelism than those that would fit into expanding the G12 system in the manner of my leaders’ choosing.

I live in the UK where this type of church isn’t common – in fact, some of them that were G12 are no longer G12 – so I feel kind of like a lone voice. If anyone here has ever studied G12 or been involved in G12 I would be interested to hear about it. I’d like to know what you think of the system and whether you think, as I do, that it’s authoritarian and goes againt Biblical principles.

Dee,

Fair enough, but to be honest, if I were going to this conference (and I am not) I would not really care to hear from CJ Mahaney.

Until I stumbled across this blog, I had no idea who he was. I am sure many who are going to this conference are just like me, but many probably are aware who this man is and what he has done.

In addition to this, many have never heard of the SGM survivor website, and certainly are not “in the know” that you and Deb are as far as these topics. This is not a good thing, and more should be aware…..The point is, many of these pastors may not be aware that they are supporting what Mahaney and others have done, because they are completely ignorant of the facts of what they have done.

If I were going to this conference, I would be far more interested to hear the likes of Platt. And I can filter what many pastors say. I am not some naive person who is “startstruck” by the Celebrity Calvinistas…and I can filter the good from the bad.

Just to reinforce what I said earlier. I support, care, and am concerned about those who are Spiritually Abused. MANY who are attending these conferences are in the same boat.

(Do you think Platt has no concern for the spiritually abused…he is on the speaking panel…is he saying this?)

I do not buy into the argument that those who attend this conference are automatically saying they care a “heckuvalot” more for Mahaney and his position rather than the abused. And to say that, once again, is encouraging false stereotypes.

You don’t have to listen to what I am saying, but just trying to point out that there is some good to this whole conference…

Seeker, your last comment (you didn’t see any topic about “pastors” being underappreciated) reveals to me that you haven’t spent too much time in an A29 “church” or one of its kind. I sense that you simply don’t get the undercurrents that are really at work in these places. So, if that’s correct, then I rejoice for you and pray that you will never become indoctrinated to believe that only the important people in the “church” matter. To believe that anyone over the age of 35 doesn’t really matter. To believe that people only matter if they are drinking the kool-aide and are doing the menial tasks to make the “church” function. To believe that you have to be “on mission” (and a whole host of other buzzwords). etc, etc, etc.

“Oh yeah, and then be told that they will be subordinate to men for eternity…”

OK, that just totally startled me to jump off the fence. Now how far from the fence will I be able to venture?

Do you know about the “new” doctrine that is being embraced by the Calvinistas that has emerged from SBTS – Al Mohler’s seminary. It is called The Eternal Subordination of the Son. We have written extensively about this. — Dee

And so even in the Trinity, there is pulling rank and Know Your Place, where one wears the Boot and the other provides the Face.

In the original Anna and the King of Siam, there’s a throwaway mention that all footpaths in Thailand of the time are just wide enough for one person — so that when two met on a path, the lower-ranked one had to step aside and stand in the mud while His Better walks past.

I also love the Calvinista speak “desire to love,” “speak these words in love,”motivated by a desire to care for you.” — Dee

In 1984, didn’t the Thought Police operate out of the Ministry of Love?

And remember the archetype of the abusive parent who abuses his kid “It’s All For Your Own Good”?

“You have a saying: “We Speak These Words In Love, Motivated by a Desire to Care For You.” We too have a saying: “Put Your Money Where Your Mouth Is.” — paraphrase of a line from Babylon-5

…and a big thank you to whoever it was (Anon 1?) who shared Jamal Jivanjee’s blog here.

“Nonconsensual consent”
This misnomer is an underlying principle of “CDD”
http://www.christiandomesticdiscipline.com/nonconsensualconsent.html
Hubby comes home from work. “Have you been a bad girl today?” Little woman: “I ate too many bon-bons and didn’t clean the fridge like you asked– but please don’t spank me!” Hubby: “Sorrrry– you gave nonconsensual consent when you signed the CDD membership covenant.”

Alan,

You said,

“Should I simply turn a blind eye to the abuse that I and others have endured at the hands of these “pastors” (and I use that term very loosely when referring to these guys)?
Are you insinuating that the majority of the people at the conf aren’t fanboys/cheerleaders of A29, Mohler, Mahaney, etc.?”

No, I don’t think you should turn a blind eye to the abuse of “these pastors.” I am questioning why you are accusing the “overwhelming majority” of people you DO NOT KNOW of being spiritually abusive?

Nor am I insinuating that they are not fanboys of such people.

I am insinuating that what you say is “common sense” is nothing more than a stereotype. You DON’T know the hearts of all these men, so it is a rather unhealthy thing to say the overwhelming majority are “fanboys of Mahaney” and “spiritual abusers” or destructive “pastors”. (Yes, I know you use that term loosely).

Instead of making broad statements and stereotypes that you CAN’T verify, why not call what you know?

If you have a problem with Mahaney…fine…then declare it. Let’s talk about Mahaney….But there are other speakers on that platform who are not Mahaney and who show quite different fruit.

If you have a problem with A29, then say what you want to say about it..(Although I am sure MANY are attending this conference who are not part of A29—and I am sure not ALL A29 churches are “evil incarnate” aka Mars Hill)…

If there are examples of people in your life who have been abusive..then let’s talk about them…I just think it is quite slanderous to accuse people of things when you don’t even know them…and when you can’t verify their hearts.

I realize I can’t verify that they are not abusive, but I am not about to make a judgment of someone unless there is evidence. I think we should call out those who are abusive, but lumping an entire conference into this “abusive” realm is rather absurd.

Dee and Anon1,

I will respond to you all in a few…At work right now and don’t have a lot of time to comment.

Thanks for all your responses.

Dave A A, I clicked on the link you shared and now I feel sick. I had no idea that something like this exists.

Can you imagine all these guys going out to plant churches and trying to support their wives and growing brood? — Deb

It’ll be like dot-coms. Even when they weren’t starry-eyed “What If?” fantasies or scams for investor money, you had hundreds of dot-com startups crowding into markets which could support maybe two or three and killing each other off from sheer numbers. (And the ones which survived were usually existing mail-order businesses who just added Internet order and payment capability.)

Rene
I ought to have included a warning — amazing what they can affix “Christian” to. Interestingly, the Xian “Domestic Discipline” folks use lots of “mainstream” patriarchal, comp, and church discipline thinking and take it to its logical extreme. They even use the phrase “He is not a dictator. She is not a doormat.” I believe either Piper or Grudem makes that exact clarification. Plus, the use of modifying adjectives– SAFE and CONSENSUAL “discipline” similar to the strings of happy adjectives used by mainstream folks in front of headship and submission.

Dave A A –

Or, they could easily slap “Biblical” or “Gospel” in front of Discipline . . .

BTW – How often did Jesus talk about such things??

I’m trying to figure out who started using the “adjective additives” so profusely. My guess is Piper. He uses them a lot. I know something is wrong when I have to reread a sentence several times to figure out what is actually being said because there are so many adjectives in the sentence.

Numo, any day with a little Mavis Staples in it is a gooooood day.

Mavis and Aretha at the same time: whoa.

Deb, thanks for your post on the “Cross-centered life” by CJ Mahaney. I know a Lutheran pastor in my area who talks about brokenness all the time, isn’t this the trend in Christianity today? This pastor, a very nice man, does not believe I can live and do live a victorious Christian life full of joy and peace when I told him. Christ is my LIFE. Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life, as He said in Scripture.

It’s unfortunate many Christians are stuck in Romans 7 and have yet to experience the freedom of Romans 8. Your comments?

“Instead of making broad statements and stereotypes that you CAN’T verify, why not call what you know”

Seeker, I live in T4G land. I can assure you the attendees are fan boys of Mohler, Mahaney, Dever and Ligon and whoever they have speaking from stage. They hang on every word. If any of the fab four has someone on stage, they have the seal of approval and the attendees fall in line. They won’t admit that but remember, they paid to go there and all the info you could ever want about them is online about spiritual abuse. So they chose not to check out who they are listening to.

They come from all over with their pennies for gas to get to see them on stage. Will all the attendees become spiritual abusers? Who knows? However, they ARE learning from the masters and certainly revere their every word.

Seeker, in your 2:19 pm comment, do you realize you are doing what many of the authoritarian celebs do? You are trying to set the parameters for what and how things are discussed. That is what they do all the time and call it sin if not done their way.

It is perfectly natural for some of us to be concerned about all the young (and middleaged!) men at T4G and who they are learning from and might emulate. Just as we should be concerned for those who learn from and emulate Driscoll.

Dee,

Didn’t realize I was on a “hook”, but you make some valid points.

But I really don’t know what else to tell you. I wasn’t aware of Mahaney until I got on this blog, and I certainly have never encountered his information in “major US newspapers”.

Was he on the cover of the New York Times? US Today, etc?

My point to you was within that 8000 member attendance at T4G, I wonder how many know the truth of Mahaney, and how many are clueless. I find it slightly funny that you hold people accountable to not teaching the word of God because they don’t spend time “reading up” the Internet and major newspapers for the latest info on SGM….Did I miss that requirement for Teachers in Scripture somewhere?

I will give it to you that many people attending T4G may know about this, and I can’t answer why they are silent. I can’t answer why Chandler, Platt, and others are silent about this issue. It bothers me for sure, and it raises genuine questions that concern me. However, I don’t want to sit back and speculate for hours on a situation that I barely understand. Not saying we should ignore it or not ask questions, But at the same time, I am not willing to write them off, over-generalize, and stereotype them as has been done so often on this blog for not only some of these speakers but now even those who attend these conferences.

Platt, Chandler, and many people who are attending this event are people who love Jesus, Love His Kingdom, and have brought forth fruit because of this. Fruit that is evident and you can see. I am sure there are also many who have done quite the contrary, but lets not drag the whole group down with them.

It certainly gives me pause when guys like Chandler and Platt do not publicly speak against Mahaney, Driscoll and others. I guess the main difference between me and many others in this blog is I still have great respect for much of what they teach, what they have done in their life, and the good things their churches are accomplishing for His Kingdom. Their silence does not equal out to me that they are Spiritual Abusers, or even defenders of such. Although their inaction certainly give reason to question why they have not spoken up. It may mean that they have handled privately what we did not see publicly. It may also mean that they are just cowards, not willing to rock the boat.

It’s a shame either way, but I am not willing to write them off for the actions of Mahaney an their lack of public disapproval of him.. I am not able to see the full picture, and God will judge them for the hidden things you or I can’t see. If they are in sin with this matter, then maybe we should take it upon ourselves to pray for their conviction by the Holy Spirit to lead them to do the courageous and hard thing. After all, are we willing to deny the Spirit is within them? That might be more effective than stereotyping an entire conference as destructive pastors who defend and support those that spiritually abuse people.

It definitely raises caution and questions, but at this point, I have no reason to write off Platt, Chadler, T4G, and the many who attend. I believe, unlike many on here, that God will work through this conference. I believe there will be shades of beauty that will come out, even though sin has reared it’s ugly head with the likes of Mahaney and possibly the hearts of many other men there.

Anon1,

Don’t have much more time to respond fully to you. I have read the article, and it was very interesting. Platt’s teaching on Radical is pretty extreme. He is asking the American church to serve and sacrifice for the plight of others in way that no Megachurch pastor has done for some time. Platt taught this in the context of keeping Jesus first in life, not our works. It seems to me the couple got burned out because they lost perspective along the way. I don’t see Platt’s fault in this, because in his sermons and his book he includes our love with Jesus quite frequently.

You can see in his podcast he taught a series on “Radical” in his church for some time, but this is by no means all he has taught. I applaud him for encouraging a very clear message in Scripture of having concern for the poor, missions, sacrifice, etc for an American culture that takes an opposite route.

Anon1,

Not all the speakers are Spirtual Abusers. Some of the speakers carry a lot of good fruit with them.. Not all the attendees will emulate the speakers every move! Hopefully they will emulate Jesus, worship Jesus, follow Jesus. Hopefully most of the Speakers there will point people to Jesus. Hopefully they will return to their churches with a heart for Jesus.

How am I trying to set the parameters of the discussion?

Why? Because I called someone out for stereotyping a group they don’t know. Some in that group that I know personally who don’t fit that stereotype or even the description you have called above..This blog certainly has no problem for calling attention to things, thought I had that right too as a participant of this blog.

The truth is….I don’t particularly find stereotyping and attacking people’s character of those we don’t know personally to be a very appealing thing. So I spoke up. Will it matter? No, because I foresee the latter to continue regardless. So dont mind my opinion…Carry on with however you like the conversation to go.

Anonymous said:

“Student, the trend of focusing on “brokenness” invaded my church while in college for a short time. The pastor finally had enough and told everybody to stop bragging about their sins and “brokenness” and what was wrong with them. He reminded everyone to rejoice in their salvation and the fact that God had already forgiven their sins. It was so refreshing to have that trend soundly kicked out of the church.”

It’s funny you mentioned this because I wrote a post about this last evening: Wallowing in Sin. I think it is a big problem in some parts of the church and not just SGM-type churches. My post was directed more at bloggers.

http://sallieborrink.com/wallowing-in-sin/

“He is asking the American church to serve and sacrifice for the plight of others in way that no Megachurch pastor has done for some time. Platt taught this in the context of keeping Jesus first in life, not our works. It seems to me the couple got burned out because they lost perspective along the way. I don’t see Platt’s fault in this, because in his sermons and his book he includes our love with Jesus quite frequently. ”

Seeker, I get it. It is always the fault of the pew sitter never the one teaching them because they “say the right words” that you hear or read. If you hve not been in a mega setting where programs like these are implemented you might not understand the peer pressure to perform. People do get caught up in it and many times it is because they revere the leader and that is the biggest sin of all in the church….following man and HIS words.

Anon1, Deb, Dee and all,

Revival is far away from the church because there are too many problems; however, I believe in personal revival. After all, revival usually begins with a few people or a small group. I love and treasure the book of Romans, all chapters from 1-16.

I have read many posts and I know I am not a cynic. I think cynicism is a form of carnality and comes from pride. There are good people doing good things in the church, I am sure there is godly leadership in some quarters although I do not personally experience it in recent days. Many Christians still love Jesus and long-standing barriers are breaking down in their lives by the power of the Holy Spirit. In other word, there is lots of hope. I remember a verse from James:

“Wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruit, without partiality and without hypocrisy.”

Mercy triumphs over judgment. Your feedback?

“There are good people doing good things in the church, I am sure there is godly leadership in some quarters although I do not personally experience it in recent days. Many Christians still love Jesus and long-standing barriers are breaking down in their lives by the power of the Holy Spirit. In other word, there is lots of hope. \”

I agree with you. What I am seeing around the meta and in groups I meet with are people who are in the church because they do not know where else to go. It is what they have always done. But they are stifled there. Some have matured past the pastor!They think they have to attend a local church “building” and are trying to do the will of God there. And I think many do well with that. If they do not become too popular or influential.

But if they happen to be in an authoritarian church where this NC is taught or even a seeker mega that is more concerned with image, they find it very hard and come against barriers all the time. Wehave a lot of hirlings, wolves and charlatans in ministry positions. In fact, narcissist are attracted to it because it is a ready made stage and rarely are you questioned if the authoritarian doctrine of “obey your leaders” is believed by the congregation and they only see you a few times per week. It is perfect venue for such people.

And there are those toiling away in inner city or the hinterlands and no one knows who they are except God adn those close to them. Praise God for them!

If there is revival, I think it will happen outside the institutional church. My opinion only. I am not a prophet or son of a prophet. It is just what I am starting to see falling into place in many quarters. People are waking up to what is a lot of vaucity in the institutional church.

Student, both you and I can be a “pastor” if we are called to that gift because pastoring is a function of the Body. We could also “preach” or “teach” if called. And we don’t hve to be paid for it to function in the true body.

Seeker, you’re doing the exact same thing though. You’re sterotyping everyone else on this blog. You’re sterotyping Chandler and Platt as great guys, even though you don’t know them.

Bottom line, you’re skirting the real issue here. Why do we have “national pastors” in the first place? Are there people who love God and who are involved in a local church, whose lives are totally transformed by what they hear at these conferences? For some reason, I hihgly doubt that’s the case. The Evangelical church these days is highly gnostic and conferences like these are part of the problem.

Anon1, your post from 7:14 is pure gold!

Regarding your 7:19 post, what you have accurately described is a consultant, not a pastor. Too many “churches” these day have what they call a pastor, but the guy is really a consultant. What’s a consultant? A person who is paid to deliver a message. Whether anyone does what they say doesn’t matter one bit to the consultant. A pastor on the other hand loves and cares for people and is often left broken hearted when he sees people making poor choices and turning away from God.

Student: “Mercy triumphs over judgement?”
Re: stuck in Romans 7 and cross-centered-ness and brokenness– the “deficient gospel” post reminded me of this well- done, well- meaning, heartbreaking, gospel-deficient version of John Griffith Bridge Operator.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oZYi1j_Z8g&feature=youtube_gdata_player
It seems to be illustrating the Good News, but, like CJ’s book, stops short of the resurrection, ascension, and Pentecost. No Romans 8! No mercy! It ends with the father grieving over his crushed son while ignorant, rescued people go on their way unchanged.

Sopwith:

Me thinks Seeker protests too much!

Meanwhile, back at the T4G ranch, Mahaney was giving examples of pastors (him?) being slandered for the sake of the Gospel. And HE and the other T4G biggies get to decide what is slander because if they say it is, then it is? The party being accused of slander didn’t get an opportunity to respond because CJ and SGM would not let him. But we all “get to” believe that CJ was slandered because CJ said so. WAIT – isn’t Seeker accusing people on this blog of saying things that might not be true? CJ gets to do that and get paid for it.

I need to write CJ a letter and remind him that it is “more humble” to suffer in silence. Do you think he might suffer in silence for a change? — Please! It’s really hard to see how he has been whining over the last six weeks in all his sermons while there are abused people, suffering because of no fault of their own, that can’t be heard over the din of CJ’s bemoaning.

It’s not right, just not right.

Wow,

Quite a few responses…Thanks and I will try to get to them all the best I can.

Dee,

“I once asked a well known pastor, who will probably be there, to address the terrible issues that have been raised by the SGM situation. He told me I was slandering said person; this was about 4 months before CJ stepped down due to the revelations. I slandered? Hmmm, so the man who was involved in terrible practices that hurt a large number of people gets a pass and I am the one who slandered. Even the Washington Post and the Louisville Courier covered the story.”

I don’t disagree with you on this. I don’t think you slandered against Mahaney. I think you are addressing what was known. I didn’t mean to imply that you stereotyped the entire conference, but I meant to imply that on this blog that has happened with several of the comments made. That is why I responded in the first place.

By the way, are those the two major newspapers that covered the story? No wonder I never heard of Mahaney until I stumbled onto Wartburg..I live pretty far away from those areas.

“I guess I am different than you. I always google the person I am reading or going to see. The bible is quite explicit that there are those who roam around seeking to devour the naive. I decided a number of years ago, that I will no longer take people on face value. I will do some reading. I don’t trust just because someone writes a good book or is a charismatic speaker. I want to go deeper to understand better. One of the reasons that we have so many links in our posts is to show what is being said outside of this blog. Frankly, everyone who reads out blog should check out what we say.”

Again…I am not going to the conference. If I was, I would probablly research who was speaking a bit more. I am not going to lie…I don’t know much about the Mahaney situation outside of some things that have been said on here. (Yes, I get it, no excuse for my ignorance). I have picked up enough to know I don’t like it. However, with 2 jobs, my family, and many other things going on, I find it hard enough to just comment on here..not to mention following all the outside links on this blog. I have followed the Driscoll saga a lot more than Mahaney, but I promise I will take a closer look.

I can’t speak for those who are attending this conference though…Maybe they have researched, and they have chosen to go in spite of Mahaney. Maybe they are completely clueless. Both are within the realm of possibilities. Regardless of their reasons, I am not willing to concede that the overwhelming majority of attendees are “defending and supporting” spiritual abuse and all the other things that were said about them earlier today from different commentors.

Like I said, the Pastors that I know personally that are going have a genuine love for Christ, genuine servants heart, and should not be characterized as what was said earlier today. They are going because they love Jesus and they love the teaching of Scripture. I am not sure if they know about the Mahaney situation. Will have to ask them what they think about him when they get back.

I appreciate your willingness to not take things at face value. You might not believe this, but I DO enjoy this blog. I have read many articles on here, and have been concerned about many of the same things you have been concerned about..especially spiritual abuse.

I have protested on how some things have been presented, (mainly today on the stereotyping that was floating around in some comments), and I have been willing to voice my respect for Chandler and Platt, but I am not at all in opposition with you.

Once again,

Thanks

“An Inability To Render Assistance?”

Mot: “Sopwith, Me thinks Seeker protests too much!”

hahahahahahaha (wink)

“…Heat not a furnace for your foe so hot that it do singe yourself…” n’est-ce pas? (grin)

*
Is this possibly a clear case of “the bystander effect”or “Genovese syndrome”and especially “diffusion of responsibility”?

What?

“Fishes live in the sea, as men do a-land; the great ones eat up the little ones…”

How many “Spiritual Kitty’s” are going to meet the same malaise before a remedy is persuaded?

Denial of culpability, and responsibility? Me thinks the fault doth worsen by the excuse…

Sopy
___
James Gang – “Walk Away”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KK9cVZvg0M&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Anon1,

“Seeker, I get it. It is always the fault of the pew sitter never the one teaching them because they “say the right words” that you hear or read. If you hve not been in a mega setting where programs like these are implemented you might not understand the peer pressure to perform. People do get caught up in it and many times it is because they revere the leader and that is the biggest sin of all in the church….following man and HIS words”

Your right I don’t understand the peer pressure. I am not in a mega setting.

Maybe I am missing something. Did Platt force them to do what they did? I think this came by their own decision.

So what exactly are we saying Platt is guilty for here? Encouraging people to serve, help, provide for the least of these?

Isn’t that a GOOD thing?

Bottom line is this. Platt made it very clear that these things come from a heart that loves Christ. He is not advocating works over our relationship with Christ. He is advocating a relationship with Christ that is motivated to work. He is advocating for church members to examine their heart and see why we ignore the “least of these.”

This couple got burned out and left the church. So what was Platt supposed to do? Stop preaching this message? Stop advocating for Christians to love and serve others? I don’t get it Anon1, I really don’t?

The couple did the right thing. They lost sight of Christ in the Radical Expirment…and they pulled themselves out to rediscover Christ. How is this Platt’s fault?

Christ was never “out of the picture” at Brook Hills. Platt keeps Him in the picture quite often..It is his responsibility to do so.

But your right though…when people “revere” the leader..that is a big sin. Just a thought though, I don’t think Platt is advocating for people to revere him over Jesus.

“That is your opinion and you are using redefintion and rebuke to try and shame people for giving their opinion. I think it is perfectly natural to be very concerned about all the guys going to hear the teaching of a well known spiritual abuser and those who coddled him in his abuse. You do realize that Mahaney taught his pastors to tell parents of sexually abused children (by fathers and other church members) to forgive instantly and not call the authorities? And that teaching is systemic in SGM. There is more, but i doubt you are really that interested.”

How is it “redefinition” when the words “rabid”, “destructive”, “these guys”, “these “pastors””, “defenders of abuse”, etc, etc, were used constantly throughout the comments today?

When “overwhelming majority” and “these pastors” were used along with “destructive”…How is that not a stereotype? Am I really redifining this?

If it was just a genuine concern, I might not have jumped in the conversation. But when overgeneralizations were being used in regards to “rabid” “destructive” etc on some guys that I know personally, and the majority of guys that this blogging community don’t even know….Those words used take it over the next level than “concerned” and “cautious”. Those words are accusatory and slanderous when you can’t verify that their hearts are such.

Sorry…Not going to stand by and watch that one go down. Anonymous may have been right from what he said earlier. Maybe I am wasting my breath, but I will speak as long as I am allowed too. You may disagree, but I will speak regardless.

Way to generalize me too Anon1. I am interested, I have already mentioned I would look more into the Mahaney situation.

Yes, there is a spiritual abuser on the stage. Obviously not well known to me, but I am blind and ignorant I guess. Not sure how EVERY speaker there coddled him in his abuse, but certainly am bothered by the silence of these said speakers, even the ones I respect.

But regardless of all that, I still choose to believe that many are going to this conference because they love Jesus and His good news, not because they want to participate in celebrity worship and support spiritual abusers.

But maybe you have a gift that I don’t. Maybe you can see the “overwhelming majority” of those thousand of hearts who have attended this conference. Maybe you can see their motives. Maybe you can see their ministries and fruit.

Please, tell me how I can aquire this gift so I can be as enlightened as you.

Seriously though, if caution and concern is all that is being proposed, then I see nothing wrong with that. But when caution and concern transitions into slanderous words about people you don’t know, then I see a problem.

Seeker @ 10:39. You know what I find so sad about your list of fruit from the celebs? Is that you don’t know any unknown, everyday Christians who struggle financially and are still doing those things. They get not public praise from thousands, write books about it or adulation for it. They just do it.

You know what is the saddest thing ever? The people who have gone to a mega church for years, become terminally ill and their “beloved pastor” whom they have revered and supported financially for years, does not even know their name. They settled for celebrity when they could have had relationship.

Alan,

“Seeker, you’re doing the exact same thing though. You’re sterotyping everyone else on this blog. You’re sterotyping Chandler and Platt as great guys, even though you don’t know them.

Bottom line, you’re skirting the real issue here. Why do we have “national pastors” in the first place? Are there people who love God and who are involved in a local church, whose lives are totally transformed by what they hear at these conferences? For some reason, I hihgly doubt that’s the case. The Evangelical church these days is highly gnostic and conferences like these are part of the problem.”

Your right, I don’t know them, but I don’t think I am stereotyping.

I have respect for them as pastors. I respect much (not all) of their teaching. I respect the fruit that is evident (that I have seen) in their lives.

I respect their churches, and what their churches have done for the Kingdom of God.

I have not inteded to stereotype everyone else on this blog as well. I just find that many (not all) on this blog have been willing to overgeneralize this whole T4G conference. Which I have talked about in full already.

Chandler and Platt do not intend to be “national pastors”. They are pastors of their own local churches. They have been thrusted into the national spotlight for various reasons (books, conferences, podcasts)..They choose to do this, but they are STILL pastors of their local church. They do not consider themselves national pastors. They are not my pastor (I am a podcast listener) and they fully know this.

I can’t share whose hearts have been transformed at T4G.

But let me share with you my own personal story.

Years ago, I went to a conference in Atlanta. In one of the smaller “break out speaking sessions”….I heard from a guy named Matt Chandler for the first time.

I don’t remember everything he said that night, but I DO remember him describing whether or not we value Christ above all.

He described a lot about when “life falls a part”….when we lose our job, when our family members become sick, when a family member dies, when our dreams don’t quite turn out the way we want, etc..

He then described passionately, that if we value Jesus most, then we can make it through. We can survive. We can keep going. If we lose everything…Jesus is enough. (The way I am describing this does not give it justice)…

I didn’t know about everyone around me…but I was deeply convicted. At the time, I was not valuing Christ. I valued many other “things” and “people”. I was losing my “first love” with Jesus.

The Holy Spirit convicted me that night through Matt’s teaching of God’s word. That night the Holy Spirit helped me to transform much of what I valued, and it led me closer to Jesus, and little did I know then, but the Holy Spirit was preparing me for what would occur a few years later.

I am really, REALLY close to my father. I have an excellent relationship with him, and I am blessed to say that I have that. But last year, my father was diagnosed with Stage 4 Esophogeal Cancer.

The doctors gave him little to no chance of survival. My family was crushed. I was shocked. It came out of no where. The problem with all this was my father had already suffered from a severe heart attack a year earlier. That was hard enough, but now this.

And during that whole trial, I “got” for the first time what Matt was talking to us about that night. My life was falling apart around me. My father, my friend, was suffering-hurting from a disease that by all accounts—would kill him. We found out the news the week of Christmas to make it even harder on us. Fortunately, I valued Jesus a lot more then than I had years before…So I leaned on Him moreso than I ever had in those dark days of chemo and watching my father’s health deteriorate.

I asked a lot of “why” questions to God, but the Holy Spirit reminded me that I had a great High Priest who was sympathetic to me. He was there. He was listening. He loved me, and the good news was, if my father succumbed to Cancer, he would live because Christ lives. Jesus was enough.

Matt wasn’t behind all this. God was. But Matt was faithful to preach God’s word at that conference that night…and God used that sermon to help wake me up…thus preparing me for what was to come. (Ironic, that Matt would be diagnosed with brain cancer a year later. I remembered his message when I heared he was diagnosed, and he never swayed from what he preached. Jesus was enough for Matt too. That was encouraging for me to see when my family got our news a few years later).

This may not be what you are looking for, but my point is, conferences have some value. God works in them. I believe God will work at T4G as well.

Thanks for your response.

 “Questionable Public Pastorial Behavior Without Identifiable Accountability”

HowDee YaAll,

   There have been much impugning of motives and much heated controversy as to the proper means and best mode of advancing the cause of identifying questionable public pastorial behavior without identifiable accountability.

Seeker to Anon1:  “What I DO MIND is attacking their character and stereotyping them when I have no evidence.”

and:

Seeker to Anon1: “Isn’t that called slander after all when we attack people when we don’t know them or have any evidence of their wrongdoing?”

Yes, the issue here presented is referring to: “questionable public pastorial behavior without identifiable accountability”. 

Yes, we are suggesting that some of these pastors cannot be trusted. 

Yes, we are entitled to our questions. 

Yes, those who have suffered abuse from the very ones entrusted with public trust are entitled to have their concerns addressed.

Yes, we are in entitled to our doubts concerning a certain viability of specific uses of public trust, the office of Pastor being one of them. 

Yes, we are entitled to debate these questions in a public forum with these public folk who have been entrusted with a certain spiritual well-being of those entrusted to their care. 

Can we not expect these individuals to give an accounting of that public trust?

When did we loose the privilege of disputing those in positions of public trust who identifiably mis-use their sacred office?

Sopy

Sopy,

“There have been much impugning of motives and much heated controversy as to the proper means and best mode of advancing the cause of identifying questionable public pastorial behavior without identifiable accountability.”

Seriously. I don’t mind you questioning, having concerns, etc, etc. In fact, everything you have just said is correct. You should question, your concerns should be addressed, and you are most certainly entitled to debate these questions.

I just don’t like the labels. I don’t like seeing things like “overwhelming majority” along with “destructive and rabid” labels in reference to the attendess. I think that is rather accusatory, and I feel I have a right to share my opinion that I don’t like it, espeically when those labels are attached to certain friends of mine when I know they don’t apply.

If you and others feel the need to use labels to further your point…Go right ahead.

Just don’t understand how you can perceive “questionable pastorial behavior” for 8000 pastors you don’t even know.

Why? Because they went to T4G? Yeah, I guess that is why you question their pastoral behavior.

“When did we loose the privilege of disputing those in positions of public trust who identifiably mis-use their sacred office?”

Ok. When you identify the overwhelming majority of pastors at the conference who have mis-used their sacred office..I would love to talk. Then we can apply the labels.

But aside from Mahaney and a few others….who do you have?

Seeker:

You said to me:

“Mot,

As I mentioned to Dee, I am not far from where many of you stand. Just disagree on some things, and see some things differently than many of you on here.”

IMHO you are far away from where many of us stand on this blog. You are certainly entitled to your views and so are we.

BTW, I have not seen anybody ask you to leave.

Dee:

You said:”I think, whenever new groups get going, there is this “rah rah” chorus of “we’ve got it all figured out.” And unsuspecting people jump on the bandwagon assuming that this is the correct way to approach the faith and all the old ways of doing it were obviously wrong. What many forget is that we have not overcome the issues of a fallen world and that our “methods” are flawed as well.”

I often wonder what happens to ministers or others in the faith when their world falls apart.

There is no one down here who has it all figured out.

That is right Dee…that is what sends the shivers. That’s why I put a ? after pastor.

There are wounded, but ignore them because whatever these wounded are saying (on the blogs) are assaults against one of us (leaders).

And who has the “authority to comment upon them” and “render judgment on these things?” My goodness…one cannot even open one’s mouth to voice an opinion, I guess. It is an incredible sentence.

“The marketplace of ideas provides accountability”

Dee, this is IT. And why they cannot ignore it and must call it gossip and divisiveness. They must make the marketplace of ideas a sinful place. They must convince folks they cannot think and come to the right conclusions or understand the bible without them.

Their self anointing game cannot stand when entered into the marketplace of ideas, discussed, and analyzed. And this includes their twisted interpretations of the bible to give themselves power over people.

Anon1, love your post from 8:58 last night.

That’s a big reason why in recent times, I find myself incredibly drawn to the liturgical churches. Say what you will about them, but know this: In their services, it is SOOOOO NOT about the pastor.

Sopy,

You said,

“I hope you will continue to read and comment here at TWW. It is a remarkable environment. Faith and belief although encouraged, are not prerequisite. However I am reminded that courtesy, empathy and compassion for those who have severely endured abuse (many without a shred of advocacy) are not optional.

Shoe size matters not for the abused of Jesus’ flock who come here for solis.

I hope you will understand”

Thanks for your gracious response. I will continue to read and comment on this blog, as long as I am allowed, and I do find it a remarkable place of varied opinions. If I didn’t, I would not participate in the conversation.

I want to apologize to everyone if I have come across as not compassionate or showing empathy for those who are spiritually abused. This was never my intention, and I certainly have empathy and compassion for those who suffer that plight.

I realize many on here have suffered at the hands of pastors and leaders in the church in many ways that I could never fathom or fully understand.

I also realize that because of this, many may pause, question, or become concerned about any leader in a church. I completely understand why you all are questioning those that attend T4G, with Mahaney on stage, I think questions should be asked.

I have no problem with concerns, questions, etc….

I responded the way I did because I saw comments that went beyond concerns and questions. They were labels that (to me) assassinated the character of a broad spectrum of people that we don’t know.

When questions/concerns become assumptions based on little to no evidence, it just doesn’t seem right. And although I myself cannot verify what character these pastors have, I don’t want to assume the worst in them. Certainly, I would not fully trust them, but I would not label and attack their character unless there was good reason.

I can verify however, with those that are attending that I personally know, that they are far from some of the labels mentioned on here. You are right Sopwith, I do have loyalty to these guys that I care for and have seen their fruit in pasotral ministry. I responded the way I did in a lot of ways because of them, because I know that there are some good pastors out there in spite of the bad that exists, and many of those good pastor are in attendance at T4G.

With all that said, I should have toned it down a bit. I know people on here respond and comment because of a lot of pain that has happened in their past. Sometimes that pain transcends beyond questions/concerns into stereotypes/labels. If I were in your shoes, I am not so certain I would not do the same thing. I don’t want to diminish the pain that they suffered at the hands of these pastors, nor discount their concern over anyone in leadership.

My goal was simply to say that not all is bad in the world of T4G. There is some beauty to it. I believe God will work through many of the pastors in attendance at this conference and has already worked through many of their lives. As I said before, there is also some blemishes.

I would love nothing more than to see Matt Chandler, David Platt, and others to speak up against the likes of Mahaney and Driscoll. (By the way, I have started looking at the Mahaney documentation on wikileaks…It is a tremendous amount of information, but I am trying to understand it all better.)

Hopefully this will happen sooner than later.

Seeker – it’s interesting to me that you say that TWW “attacks” people.

Because I don’t see that happening – what I *do* see is forthright critique, which isn’t the same thing as attack.

Not sure why these things seem to devolve into 2 sides – one “right,” the other “wrong,” when in fact there can be (and are) multiple perspectives out here.

Numo,

You said,

“Seeker – it’s interesting to me that you say that TWW “attacks” people.

Because I don’t see that happening – what I *do* see is forthright critique, which isn’t the same thing as attack.”

If you think calling someone “destructive”, “rabid”, etc, etc is just a forthright critique..especially considering said person you are critiquing is someone you don’t even know…then I honestly don’t understand. Calling someone “destructive” is very much an attack of their character. If there is evidence of their destruction, then by all means say it.

If you want to call Mahaney as such, then I can see that..but these labels went towards the “overwhelming majority” of attendees at this conference.

I just don’t get it..That is all.

That would be like me saying I find all Muslims to be “rabid” and “destructive” because of 9/11.

Tell me, is that fair? I don’t see the difference in that and saying the “overwhelming majority” of Pastors at T4G are destructive because one of T4G’s speakers has been destructive.

Alan,

You said,

“I would suggest that real Christianity, on a horizontal level, is about being involved in each other’s lives. Genuinely caring for others. Hurting when they hurt. Crying when they cry. It’s often dirty and quite messy, but that’s real life, and it’s also why so many avoid it. It’s much easier to just listen to a great public speaker and it’s better to just attend a conf where you can just fit in with the crowd. It’s also why the mega “churches” are so wildly popular.

I don’t disagree with this. I am not saying “real Christianity” is found in the conference scene. Real Christianity is most definitely found in your local church community (if in a megachurch, hopefully found in a small group community you have plugged into–whether that be a home group or something else), in the streets, in the impoverished countries, in an among the least of these.

I have said this before, and I will say this again. The Conference scene is a bonus. It is far from “real Christianity”, but I still believe God works among it, as my story I shared with you above mentioned.

I can filter “the Real” from the conference. It is indeed sad that many cannot, and I cannot disagree with the danger that can be found in “megas” and “big conferences”…;

Let me say this though, the same danger of missing out of “real Christianity” can happen in all churches of all sizes..Not just the big ones.

I am in a community where all the churches are small. No megas here. But let me tell you, there are many churches here who are nothing more than a “country club”. There is none of what you mentioned above…It is just “something to go to” like a Friday night football game. Real community is absent. Real love is absent. I have seen this frequently in small churches in my area, so it is not about conferences or Megachurches. It can happen in every situation in Christendom.

Seeker, I think the frustration of some of us is that people get so caught up in “how” something is said or the “tone” that they miss the glaring horror of what had been done to people in the Name of Jesus. And why others in a position to say something just stay silent or even help protect the bad guys.

It gets old. This “you must say everything properly as I think it is proper” or I refuse to listen to the “content” and will spend my time rebuking people for “how” they say things. Why not ignore the “tone” or “how” it is said and deal with the content? It is as if the ones who are concerned about those spiritually abused are worst sinners for “how” they say something than those mocking Christ by spiritually abusing!

I see it so much that I think it is really a tactic to keep the focus off their idols that are falling. If we can make those who mention the problems, the bad guys, then we don’t have to think about the situations concerning these guys we follow or like. People get very attached to talking heads. It is amazing.

Seeker said, “But regardless of all that, I still choose to believe that many are going to this conference because they love Jesus and His good news, not because they want to participate in celebrity worship and support spiritual abusers.”

If those “many” would have left their seats and walked out en masse when the “spiritual abusers” take the stage, you would find a much more sympathetic audience here. But the reality is they did not. They applaud. They remain silent. And by their silence they send the message that they are in solidarity with the abusers – as someone once said, “If you don’t say it’s wrong then that says it’s right.”

“But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.” — John 12:42-43

Anon1,

“It gets old. This “you must say everything properly as I think it is proper” or I refuse to listen to the “content” and will spend my time rebuking people for “how” they say things. Why not ignore the “tone” or “how” it is said and deal with the content? It is as if the ones who are concerned about those spiritually abused are worst sinners for “how” they say something than those mocking Christ by spiritually abusing!

I see it so much that I think it is really a tactic to keep the focus off their idols that are falling. If we can make those who mention the problems, the bad guys, then we don’t have to think about the situations concerning these guys we follow or like. People get very attached to talking heads. It is amazing.”

Ok. I get your frustration. Let me try to explain some things. I have spent a lot of time over the past few days trying to explain where I am coming from. I just don’t think I am coming across very well. I will try once again.

First off,

I AM listening to the content that has been presented. I hear you. I really do. In the case of Mahaney, Driscoll, or any other spiritual leader that has committed abuse—it is an atrocity. It needs to stop. Please, in the case of those who are guilty of these atrocities, please do not let them off the hook. I will join with you in that.

That is one reason why I follow this blog…to be informed of what is going on. I may have different opinions on some levels, but I am not here to “bash” and “protest” for the sake of it. I read most of what Dee and Deb writes on here and agree with most of their sentiments. I am also (as of late) trying to follow the outside links that Dee and Deb have placed on here…(I am presently trying to scroll through the endless documentation of Mahaney to learn more about the whole situation)

Please hear me say this. I really do hear you. I really do understand.

Let me ask you a question. Please answer this for me. Do you honestly think it is right and ok to describe people you don’t know at all as destructive, rabid, and any other accusatory label when you have no idea what their true heart or their motive is?

Sure, you can “assume” all day long they are [insert label, stereotype] because they are at T4G…but unless you know them personally, you really have no clue. Truth be told, I barely know the people there as well, I only know my friends who have attended.

I hope the best for the Pastors there. I hope they are sincere, genuine followers of Christ, but I am certainly not guaranteed the latter. However, just because I am not certain they are decent pastors, does not mean I should go off on a tangent and label them. Until I have good reason, it is best to keep the tongue at bay in my opinion.

So again, do you honestly think it is ok to label as I have stated above for those you don’t know?

Now let me answer your concerns. I am not trying to perform a magic trick here or some tactic to make the issue of spiritual abusers disappear. Nor am I trying to say that the sin of applying labels/stereotyping people is worse off than the sin of Spiritual Abuse. Obviously they both have different consequences. Obviously (it should be at least)…they are both wrong.

(And how you say things is important and speaking negative things over people when there is no ground for such is no “small sin” btw…Doesn’t the book of James address the tongue?)

Here is the crazy thing—I originally posted on this article in response to a commentor who used some pretty abrasive labels for those who attend this conference. I wasn’t looking for an apology, I just wanted to mention that I knew some people who was going to this conference that didn’t “fit the label”..My goal was simply to say that there is some good within the bad at T4G. That there was some beauty along with the blemishes.

This commentor responded graciously and agreed with me about the stereotyping. I am glad someone “got” where I was coming from. I am thankful for this commentor.

I just don’t understand really. Am I missing something. Is it really okay to stereotype people when you have no evidence? This blog is filled with labels—(Most of the time, those labels are used appropriately)—-but in my time here, long before I have ever commented, I have seen these labels stretch into broad generalizations/stereotypes on people that they should not belong.

Just an opinion here, but I think this community as a whole could make more of an impact against Spiritual Abuse by not resorting to labeling/stereotyping people they don’t know. I think making assumptions and accusations is the wrong way to go when the latter is not based on any evidence. I think it will add more credibility and add more to the intelligent forum that is already in place.

Isn’t stereotyping/labeling a tactic used by many of these leaders who are guilty of abusing people? Wasn’t that a fatal flaw of Mahaney? He made bad judgments of people did he not?

Copied directly from Brent’s documentation regarding Mahaney—

“Can judge or prematurely come to conclusions about others based on limited or incomplete information.”

Hmmm…Is this not the same trait that is happening in regards to the stereotypes on here in various comments?

Is this ok? It should be wrong on all accounts, no matter who it comes from.

I am not saying concerns, questions, doubt, suspicions, should not be raised by those attending T4G because of the associations or your prior experience.

I am not saying people should ignore the likes of Mahaney and others.

I am most certainly not saying one should not “think” about the circumstances that have taken place.

I hope this clears some things up. I hope you understand a little more the point I have been trying to make all along. I hope this eases some of your frustration.

Thanks once again Anon1 for engaging with me in this conversation.

Seeker –

Your point that you will not stop pressing “feels” very much like the “you better shut up” tactics that people experience during emotional, verbal and spiritual abuse. If you will not understand that, you will not understand why you are not making very much headway here.

I have a piece of advice for you. Next time, talk about the victims of abuse for 20 or so paragraphs. And I mean talk about them – you say that you will join the people here in not letting the abusers off the hook. Please do so. Try to show as much passion for that as you do for correcting the commenters here for generalizing about T4G.

Then make your point in 4 paragraphs. Yes, I counted the paragraphs of your last comment to Anon1. It is an example of why you are not making much headway here. We can hear you, but we’re just not feeling that you are on our side as much as you say you are. (Which isn’t much – 4 paragraphs compared to the 20 you spend taking us to task and explaining why you feel you need to.)

Yes, I hear you – I was in an Acts 29 plant. It was a horrible experience. I can tell you that one of our pastors is a wonderful guy that I would never paint with the same brush that I would paint the lead pastor with. But singing his (the worship pastor’s) praises does nothing to fix any problems, of which there were many.

Dana,

Thanks for your advice.

A few things:

I am hoping that someone connected to the abusers will call these abusers out. I also am heartbroken over those abused by the hands of Mahaney and Driscoll. Please understand though, I don’t understand all the complexities about Mahaney yet and these cases of abuse.

I haven’t spent a lot of time on the SGM survivor site. This is the only blog I ever read. I have followed the stories represented on here at times about various forms of abuse, and I by no means have ignored that.

The thing is, I hardly know anything about SGM or the abused in that situation. I honestly don’t feel qualified to discuss this until I research the whole thing entirely…which takes time…the documentation itself is hundreds of pages long. It is a book.

I have stated time and time again that I don’t agree with this abuse. I think it is an atrocity. My heart breaks for the people involved. I am not as connected to this as many on here, but I can certainly sympathize with you, will pray for the healing that the abused need, will hope and pray some justice will come to Mahaney and Driscoll. I hope this type of abuse will be purged from the church.

Dana, I never intended this conversation to go as far as it did. I disagreed with one commentor about how some things were presented in a comment. This person agreed….Then everyone seemed to have a lot to say towards me all of a sudden.

So I responded back to their points giving them my take. Wouldn’t you do the same? I felt strongly that I need to speak out against labeling/stereotyping…I still do..whether people here see it that way or not.

But I am truly sorry Dana, for not discussing the abused in 20 paragraphs, and not meeting your expectations to prove that I am with you.

You honestly don’t have to believe a word I say. It is not my goal to “prove” myself or “make headway” with anyone on this board. It would make this conversation a bit more constructive I am sure if everyone did not feel that I am the “enemy” or “against” you.

It is my intention to be informed. Share my thoughts on that information. Share my agreements/disagreements when I can.

Again, You don’t have to believe me when I say I am with you and on your side, but I AM with you, whether you believe it or not.

Anon1,

Thanks for responding and answering the question.

You said,

“You see, there really is no excuse. I can excuse one commenter using such language you found offensive and overlook it even ignore it. What I cannot overlook are SGM pastors who were taught to NOT call authorities when a father in the church is raping his daughter and counseling the mother to send the girl away so he could be “head” of the house. Sorry, but that is just me. And that is ONE of the horror stories. And believe me, Mohler has thrown his share of people under the bus in his “career”, too.

And I wish I had the name of every single participant of T4G so we could warn their churches. I am that strongly opposed to spiritual abuse in the Name of Jesus.”

I guess I would disagree with you on why you would excuse labeling/stereotyping BUT…

I understand why you are passionate to not excuse the things you stated. That is beyond a horror story..that is plain sick. I really am lost for words why any church leader would endorse such things.

Can you link where you have read this story before, or point me to the website that has it? I am trying to read the documentation, but I have not seen anything like this story on there yet. Just curious where I can read some of these stories…. trying to educate myself a bit more on all of this.

Just curious—have you asked the guy staying with you about the whole Mahaney situation? Have you talked to him about this? Does he know what Mahaney has done?

I know he is your guest and that may not be the wisest time to discuss these matters…just wondering what his reaction would be.

The more I learn…the more I will join in with you to warn other church leaders about Mahaney to watch out. The more I learn, the more I continue to question why someone like David Platt–who has exhibited fruit in many other ways—would choose to remain silent.

Thanks Anon1

Seeker, What makes it particularly egregious they do not do their homework is that many of the attendees are PASTORS or wannabe pastors. And they go back to their churches and quote these guys. So more of the same blindness.

“Can you link where you have read this story before, or point me to the website that has it? I am trying to read the documentation, but I have not seen anything like this story on there yet. Just curious where I can read some of these stories…. trying to educate myself a bit more on all of this.”

4-5 years worth of stuff on sgmsurvivors

“Just curious—have you asked the guy staying with you about the whole Mahaney situation? Have you talked to him about this? Does he know what Mahaney has done?”

He leaves early and comes home about 11 pm worn out. I have enough trouble keeping Grandpa from wearing him out about the “pope of the SBC” in the morning over coffee. I did tell him about sgmsurivors and say sweetly the victims of Mahaney’s abuse deserved some of his attention, too. But he is besotted with them. Poor guy. It must be hard to come back to a place he knows is not besotted with them at all after being on his Amway convention high. And that is what I think it really is. My goal is to keep him well fed with a good night sleep so he is less brainwashed. I send him off with a nice big lunch packed. The poor guy is broke and literally used last money for gas. And food down there is expensive!

Seeker, Anon 1, and everybody else –

Just following this conversation between all of you is making me break out in sweat. 🙂 This must be a very difficult thing to discuss, but you are all trying hard to be clear and intelligent and kind. Thank you. I am learning with Seeker and have been praying alongside all of you today.

Anon1,

I appreciate the kindness that you are showing him, and I hope he remembers what you said to him about the sgmsurvivors.

I sincerely hope this blindness will not continue as it has been.

This is why I hope someone like Platt or Chandler, will be willing to at least say “something” in regards to these issues. If they continue to remain silent, then it just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Platt and Chandler both have children of their own. Would they agree with the stance that Mahaney took in regards to the child abuse? I just find it hard to believe they would agree…

If they don’t agree, then I find it hard to believe they would remain silent. Do they mistrust the information that is out there that accuses Mahaney? Or are they just avoiding a confrontation?

Anyway, in my opinion, It will be far more effective for someone like that to speak up for the blindness to fall away for many people. So many ignore the truth, fail to search for it, or are sceptical or confused as those on that pyro blog mentioned in another post here…Truly, if it wasn’t for Wartburg, it probablly would not have been long before I would have stumbled across Mahaneys name whether in a book or something else.

And to be honest, I would probablly have missed his true self in all of this as well.

Rene,

Thank you for your kind words and your prayers. Glad I am not the only one around here who has some things to learn about all of this.

By the way,

Sopwith,

Thanks for your encouraging words as well from earlier…(and your prayers)

Oh wait, here’s another one that has links to the stories.

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/07/29/confessions-of-an-sgm-pastor/

Ok. Now to work I go.

“You said:”I think, whenever new groups get going, there is this “rah rah” chorus of “we’ve got it all figured out.” And unsuspecting people jump on the bandwagon assuming that this is the correct way to approach the faith and all the old ways of doing it were obviously wrong. What many forget is that we have not overcome the issues of a fallen world and that our “methods” are flawed as well.”

I often wonder what happens to ministers or others in the faith when their world falls apart.”

I can tell you what happened to many in the Crossroads/ICOC movement: they left and don’t believe in God anymore. Or they might still believe in God but don’t worship with any church because they have been burned so badly by fellow Christians, especially those in leadership.

As far as Chandler and Platt go – I don’t know, but my feeling is this: These guys are into authority and behave like pack animals (I’m not being derogatory here, just descriptive. I have four dogs and we deal with pack behavior at my house every day.) My experience with these guys (at the Acts 29 church where I was a member)is that they are very authoritative with anyone that they deemed “below” them in the pack. They are very submissive, to the point of almost cringing to anyone they perceive to be above them.

Chandler and Platt do not consider themselves to be in authority over Mahaney. They are in different packs. They don’t want their authority questioned within their own pack, so they don’t questions the leader of another. Not their business to do so, since it does not fall under their authority. They may very well disapprove, but…..not their place to comment.

Seeker –

“An authority over Mahaney!?!” Christ is his authority for goodness sake!

Seeker –

Besides Christ being Mahaney’s authority, which should bring about good works in all areas of his life, he has never been “under authority” to anyone. He left his local church and fled to Dever’s church when all this happened. (You see the hypocrisy with Dever now? He has books out about church discipline, yet harbors his buddy.) Mahaney would not let his local church counsel or help him in any way. Not only that, he took a 6 month break during the time that much of this broke and another of the apostles (Dave Harvey – who has his own issues to face in all of this) was dealing with all the PR and plain ole “c…p” that CJ allowed on his watch. When CJ returned as president of SGM, Harvey had to step aside (family and exhaustion) or it was planned that way. Who knows? You would think that these men can look at what is going on from afar and see that something is amiss.

BTW – I am in an SGM church. I don’t know how long that will continue. The elders in my church didn’t go to T4G. Do you think any of the leaders at T4G looked to see how many of the SGM churches had elders (or anyone) in attendance? CJ apparently wanted to have a meeting to discuss the AoR report with the elders in SGM churches before T4G. The pastors at my local didn’t think that was an appropriate venue for such a discussion and didn’t attend even though asked.

They are all turning a blind eye to what they see. Maybe they are afraid that if they “see” they might need to examine themselves a bit more intently. It’s beyond me!

Dee,

I totally agree. I just think we need to be careful when drawing conclusions sometimes on information.

If it is a known fact that a pastor makes 200,000 dollars a year and that is verifiable information—then yeah, I think it is safe to say the pastor most likely lives in excess..(Even though hey may give 150,000 dollars of it away..not likely…but possible).

However, just because someone is a pastor of a big church or even a mega church (available information)—doesn’t mean he is living an extravagant lifestyle. Take Platt for example..He is a mega pastor, but it can be verifiable that he is intentionally trying to NOT live in extravagance.. Sometimes I think people see some information…and they take that information a bit too far and draw conclusions that are false.

Those false conclusions or assumptions are the things we need to be careful about..This is not to say we should not ask questions, but maybe we might need to see how verifiable that info is a little bit more before we speak…This is what I tried to convey earlier on here about stereotyping, labeling, etc.

In my opinion though..Survivors, Refuge, The documentation….That is accumalated amount of information that can be verifiable in many ways..

That is available information that we can draw many conclusions from…none of which will be false.

Numo,

It is very unfortunate.

Seeker –

Thanks for taking the time to read the links.

I think the authority problem is somehow lodged in the “independent” part of independent churches. They won’t necessarily abuse authority, but if they do, there is no appeal.

Miguel (who comments on this blog) points this out regularly and I agree with him. Denominational churches tend to be organized so that everyone answers to somebody else.

Just seems to be something wrong with people submitting themselves to a self-appointed leader of an independent church. When it goes bad, it really goes bad.

Seeker said:

Honestly, regardless of why, it bothers me. Even if they don’t want to call Mahaney or Driscoll out on the carpet by name in a public venue like T4G, it seems to me they could at least explain to their churches in full how they handle authority in their own context, explain their disapproval of things that has happened in regards to other pastors (Mahaney and Driscoll) handling authority, and at least come out with a little transparancey.

The problem is I am not associated in their local context, so maybe I have missed where they have addressed this. Maybe they have done this at some point.

Given the large platform these men have, and that their sermons are recorded and made available online, wouldn’t we already know about it if they had done so with any clarity whatsoever? I am sure that bloggers would be all over that. At this point, any kind of real stance they might make in solidarity with victims of abuse in the churches of their friends and colleagues would make huge waves. There’s not a lot of room for half measures at this point.

It would take a huge amount of courage to do this.

It would be a huge mistake to put a lot of trust in the AoR report. These folks make their living by churches calling them in to mediate. No church leader is going to have them brought in if it could mean his ruin. AoR is a derivative of Ken Sande and his group.

If there was not a problem, Ken Sande’s group would have done it but there is a lot of bad blood there and people are on to them. But the dots connected to AoR which sounds like a different group but the dots are there for anyone who wants to connect them. sgmsurvivors connected a ton of them a while back when they were called in.

The leaders (and other within) of the Reformed movement have already announced Mahaney fit to lead/preach/teach. This is from Mohler, Dever, DeYoung, Truman, etc, etc. Does anyone expect the AoR report to say differently in a real way? It might have some negatives in it to throw some bones to the victims, but I would not expect it to tell SGM to dismantle and Mahaney to get out of ministry because he is not qualified according to scripture. Which is really what needs to happen to have any spiritual cred.

Bridget,

It does sound a bit biased and unfair.

I had some hopes for the AoR report, but it probablly won’t change much after I have heard you and Anon1 describe all this.

CJ and Mark Driscoll seem to have a lot in common here to remove the people who became a threat to them.