"Whoever is spared personal pain must feel himself called to help in diminishing the pain of others. We must all carry our share of the misery which lies upon the world." Albert Schweitzer
Salem Witch Trials-Public domain
Ed Young Jr's Church "Gets it On"
As we have reported in a previous post, Mark Driscoll consulted with Ed Young Jr on how to manage a multisite church. As many readers know, I am a refugee from a couple of years at Fellowship Church in the early 90s. So, when I read that Ed had “helped” Mark, I had a good, long chuckle. Recently, an Ed Young supporter showed up on the blog, extolling the virtues of the Youngs and even this video which follows. I appreciate the fact, in her comments, i was reminded that I really needed to post this video.
So, what do you think of "Let's Get it On" being the opening hymn for church? Apparently, this performance occurred at Fellowship Church, Plano, about 15 or so miles from the mothership in Grapevine. They were about to begin their sex series based on the Youngs’ book (Sexperiment) which was released at the same time as Driscoll’s book. (Real Marriage). It looks like Young trained Driscoll well.
It appears that the music leader (or the main singer) posted it on You Tube. This, in itself, shows how little these people understand how outsiders perceive this nonsense. Methinks they have been swimming in the same kool-aid for far too long. Frankly, I find this stunt demonstrates stunning ignorance.
This is how it was titled on You Tube. Note the warning.
“Sexperiment: Intro Song (don't take it so seriously, it's all in good fun & yes, worship)”
WORSHIP??? Are these guys living in the same universe as me???
Here is his “explanation":
“I go to the most amazing church, Fellowship Church in Plano, Texas. Today marked the first day of a new series by Ed and Lisa Young, Sexperiment. Enjoy!” ( ed note: Loving the shoes, dude).
I have a feeling said video was not well-received because of this next comment.
“Adding comments has been disabled for this video.”
However, TWW invites you to make your comments here. We cannot wait!
John Piper Readying to Step Down; Successor Candidate Named Link
"The leaders of Piper’s church, based in the Twin Cities metro area of Minnesota, nominated Jason Meyer, who is currently assistant professor of New Testament at Bethlehem College and Seminary."(Piper and his church started this institution and Piper is the chancellor. (TWW refers to seminaries started by specific churches and pastors as “boutique seminaries.”)
So who is Jason Meyer? Here is his bibliography from Biblia Theologica
"Prior to coming to Bethlehem, Meyer was the Dean of Chapel and Assistant Professor of New Testament and Greek at Louisiana College in Pineville, LA from 2006-2009. He served as the pastor of Orville Baptist Church while completing his Ph.D. in New Testament under Thomas R. Schreiner at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
This ministry appointment feels like a homecoming to the Meyers, who studied at Bethlehem from 1999–2001 as part of The Bethlehem Institute. Jason and his wife, Cara, have been married since 1999, which have been the best ten years of their lives. God has blessed them with two daughters, Gracie and Allie, and they are in the process of adopting two boys from Ethiopia."
We think that Meyer seems to be a lot like Piper in his mannerisms and style. TWW Prediction: Things will remain status quo after the change because Piper will be mentoring him for the next 2 years. We also believe he will be sticking around his ministry at Desiring God. Does anybody remember Criswell's "retirement" from First Baptist, Dallas? His ill-fated replacement pastor certainly does. We hope that Piper will not repeat Criswell's mistake.
Reconciliation
Recently, the call for reconciliation from Mars Hill has prompted much discussion on various blogs on the theology of forgiveness and reconciliation. There is naturally (and for good reason) some suspicions that this call to reconciliation is going to result in more pain for the victims who received the right boot of fellowship from Mars Hill.
TWW is dedicated to supporting those who have been hurt by churches, no matter the denomination. We are now part of a worldwide spiritual abuse network which has been the brainchild of Barbara Orlowski of Canada Her site which has been particularly helpful to many readers of this blog is called Church Exiters link.
We also recommend the book Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, The: Recognizing and Escaping Spiritual Manipulation and False Spiritual Authority Within the Church by David Johnson and Jeff VanVonderen link.
We believe that most churches and organization are ill-equipped to deal with those who have been deeply hurt by ministries. We highly recommend that the leadership of Mars Hill and Sovereign Grace Ministries get some training in this area. (Bet they are all falling down, laughing at this point but so be it. Out of the mouths of women…)
So, we are going to offer a lesson in what NOT to do by one of our readers who seems to have been down this road. We thank David who posted this as comment earlier today. We highly advise Mars Hill and SGM leader types to think about this. This is one of the reasons that people hesitate to trust the process when it is run by those they feel contributed to the problem.
Reconcilitors – the elders / shepherds with assumed supreme authority over everyone and also the ones with the greatest need for CYA.
Reconcilee – the one blindsided from out of nowhere that now finds they are outside the chicken coop so to speak in an extremely stressful and potentially damaging situation.
The process goes like this.
Reconcilitors: We sincerely and profusely apologize for the fact that as your shepherds we have allow a situation to occur that has resulted in the conflict we now find ourselves in. We believe this is all a result of sin. Sin on our part which we have just now confessed, and sin on your part which we hope to help you see and then gently guide you also to the point of confession. So, if we do find there to be sin on your part, will you also be willing to confess and take whatever steps we deem necessary to complete the reconciliation process? After all reconciliation is a two way street.
Reconcilee: Huh?
Reconcilitors: You seem hesitant to submit to this process, why is that?
Reconcilee: What? You did ____ and it was flat wrong and I thought you wanted to make it right with me?
Reconcilitors: Well there you have it. What actually precipitated ____ was your initial disrespect of our authority, which we may point out, is now happening again with your refusal to submit to our Biblical reconciliation process. So, now we must begin to uncover your underlying sin issues which are prohibiting you from seeing things clearly and are therefore causing you to question our Biblical authority.
Reconcilee: Please excuse me; I need to leave now this is just bizarre.
Reconcilitors (public message regarding situation): We have earnestly and prayerfully sought to bring healing and wholeness to the ___ situation. Unfortunately, reconcilee is refusing to acknowledge their role and take the necessary steps on their part to bring about true goodness. We will continue to pray for ___ in hopes that they will truly come to desire reconciliation in this matter.
That’s the vision, and I’ve seen it multiple times here in the Pacific Northwest. And yes it is related to the direct influence of MH and A29. Go figure.
Wade Burleson and the SBC Name Change
Finally, we leave you with a laugh from Wade Burleson's son, Logan on the SBC’s proposed name change. This first appeared on Wade Burleson's blog here . Your gorgeous blog queens are mentioned! We believe there is hope for the next generation. Go Logan!
Lydia's Corner: Jeremiah 51:1-53 Titus 2:1-15 Psalm 99:1-9 Proverbs 26:17
I was deeply hurt by a church I loved and served for several years. I left at my own will (no disciplinary action was involved) when God gave me the light to see the reality of this mega church. Self-worship, carnality of different forms were displayed before my eyes, in the ranks of leadership.
That said, I decided to forgive all those who hurt me (pastors, deacons, community group leaders)and let them go. I turned them over to the Lord Jesus, the Good and True Shepherd. I have agreed to cancel the debt and I am FREE!! Forgiving is a decision, not a feeling. Somehow God honors my decision and my wounds heal slowly but surely.
Forgiveness is a long and painful process, it did not come overnight; in fact, it took me a long time. By the grace of God, I did forgive and I no longer hurt. I forgive because God has forgiven me in Christ who died for me on the cross; and I want to obey His command to forgive. My past has been redeemed by the blood of Jesus.
However, I do not want to be reconciled with this church. Here are the reasons I want to share with all of you, readers:
Trust has been broken, I do not want to risk injury again, the “leaders or pastors” of this church are very young in years and young in Christ, I am not convinced they know how to do “recon” with grace and truth in good balance. Self-worshipers are idolators, I imagine they will try to defend themselves, justify their actions, blame someone else, argue their case. etc… They would care much more about their own image and reputation than than ex-members, wounded members. In other words, it would be an exercise of futility on my part to do reconciliation with them.
I am not at all convinced these folks know what “biblical living” is all about. They bill their community groups as “the place for discipleship” it’s baloney. They call the department that runs these groups “Biblical Living department” It’s a place where problems happen and people get hurt because of lousy leadership.
We are commanded to forgive by the Lord but we are not commanded to reconcile in all circumstances. Forgiveness, yes, reconciliation, not necessarily.
My experience has demonstrated to me, negatively speaking, the harm that ungodly leadership can do to the flock and positively, the redeeming power of the blood of Jesus Christ who is my Perfect Redeemer.
Nobody should compel anyone else to reconcile. Nobody should feel they have to reconcile with those who have hurt them.
I welcome your comments so that I can learn more from all of you. Thank you.
The example by David of reconciliation is true to what I experienced at an abusive church. Anyone who disagrees with him is excommunicated from the church and shunned. He is now suing four former attenders for defamation because of comments on google and a survivor blog started to warn others of the churches abuse. It is becoming difficult to know which church learders to trust anymore. I just try to keep my eyes on Jesus and not on any man. Thanks for your blog.
The Janet Mefford Radio Show
Janet Mefford interviews David Kupelian about his article “The Church of Sex”:
http://www.janetmefferdpremium.com/2012/03/09/janet-mefferd-radio-show-20120309-hr-2/?popup=true
Interview starts at 26:00
At the end of Let’s Get It On, people clapped and gave a standing ovation. Since this was worship music, I assume that standing ovation was for Jesus. Right?
At least there was no pelvic grinding. Small mercies.
Rene –
I couldn’t get to the end. Were they serious that this was worship?
Rene
Let’s get it on for Jesus-I swear I am losing my mind.
Anon
I look forward to listening a bit later.
Bridget
They are dead serious.Did you not read the comments this week from some woman claiming that this song was “very appropriate”I still cannot believe I gave 2 years to this church. I used to say a year and a half but my husband has corrected me. I am still trying to figure out what happened to me.
That description of the “reconciliation” process is dead-on. I’ve never had to go through this myself, but I know a number of people who have. The most recent one happened to a good friend of mine who was a member of a PCA church. They followed the script exactly.
Dee –
No. I missed the “very appropriate” comment. ICK! I’d rather sing “Jesus Loves Me.”
About the 2 years . . . forgive yourself. You’ve already stopped participating and moved on. It might have just been mid-life. What did hubby think of that church?
Ok…
That video…Really?
I am all about enjoying the intimacy of sex in marriage between a husband and wife…
And I think in certain contexts in the church it is good to teach that Sex is GOOD thing in the context of marriage….
But I am not so sure “Lets Get it On” is the right way to go about it…especially during a time when people could be thinking on the beauty of Christ.
Weird…
Moniker –
The script is used all over the place. I’m trying to figure out if they teach it somewhere (using it intentionally-not my first guess) or does the doctrine they believe and teach perpetuate this type of attitude between leaders and members? It’s bizarre, very contrary to the teachings of Jesus, and becoming all too common in many circles.
It’s amazing the email threatening Paul Petry with dismembership and disfellowship was sent (while they were still members) by the head of the RECONCiLIATION team of pastors assigned to “care for Paul and his family during this time.”
http://joyfulexiles.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/brad-house-demand-to-meet-11-02-2007.pdf
Bridget
My husband did not like the goings on. At the time, we had a new baby and a sick daughter as well as one more child. We knew no one in Dallas and FC was right down the street. Even then, there was talk about money. Ed was a master. He would whine from his pulpit about his truck always breaking down. So, he was given a new car. Wife was given very expensive clothes as well which they claimed were hand me downs.
They claim all their wealth came because they faithfully tithed. So, I wonder how all the faithful tithers at FC feel when they don’t get the mansion, condo, cars and jet.
Seeker
This is just the tip of the iceberg. And things like this is what this blog is all about.
Dee (and Bridget),
As I learn more about your (Dee’s) church background, I think it’s uncanny how well your experiences equipped you for writing this blog. So maybe this is a case of “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good…”
On a semi-related note, I do sometimes despair of ever getting it right – by which I mean God, and discipleship, and church, and all the stuff that goes with that – when I see so many people who have studied the Bible deeply and been sincere lifelong Christians making fundamental errors. Ignoring mercy, looking to other people for their salvation, etc. etc. If someone like John Piper (for example) commits serious error, how can a doofus like me expect to fare any better?
Sigh.
I know that I need to spend more time in prayer. Eyes on Jesus.
bridget
This script is only page 23. Then there is page 100. You have a concern about something weird going on in the church. you mention it to the pastor He raises his eyebrows (taught at conferences)and says “You are the first one to bring this up. I have not heard this from anybody.” Then, you find out that 10 more people have raised the same question and gotten the same answer. This is backed up theologically by the Complete Systematic Theology of Lying-Why you can do it “for the Lord.”
Dee –
Funny! I say burn the systematic theology books and read the Bible! While your reading it, ask the Holy Spirit to bring it to life.
I can understand the 2 years at “that” church given what you were dealing with. I probably wouldn’t have known what planet I was on much less what church I plunked down in on a given Sunday.
Rene
Jesus chose the fisherman; not the theologians and rulers. i think it is rather simple. If you focus on the people that Jesus focused on-the lost let down and looking instead of the latest mega-idol pastor; if you focus on love instead of the latest doctrine; if you see an immortal in the faces of the checkout girl, the breakfast waitress and the guy on the streets you will see the face of God.
And you can bet that every experience is used by God for his purposes. I have often said this blog flies on the wind of my experiences at a former church. I needed those bad experiences to understand what is going on out there. Also, I used to talk to myself a whole bunch. Now, I talk to all of you and people think I am sane. (I’m not really).
Hi, Pilgrim.
I agree with what you said. Let’s see, what is reconciliation anyway? Such a lofty, righteous-sounding word!
1.Restore friendly relations between:
2.Cause to coexist in harmony; make or show to be compatible.
None of this is possible between an abuser and the abused.
Your decision to forgive and stay away from bitterness is great. Takes determination. You’ve done well.
The scenario you have given is the exact same scenario I was afraid was going to happen to anyone who responded to the MH call, resulting in even more hurt and damage.
(TWW refers to seminaries started by specific churches and pastors as “boutique seminaries.”)
LOL!!! I cannot stop laughing!!! (You owe me a keyboard and a Stevia ginger root beer)
“Does anybody remember Criswell’s “retirement” from First Baptist, Dallas? ”
And Dobson’s “retirement”, too
Regarding, “Let’s Get it On,” I can honestly say that I am at a loss for words. (And that is saying something, for those of you who know me).
Any connection between this tripe and Orthodox Christianity, is purely coincidental.
“Nobody should compel anyone else to reconcile. Nobody should feel they have to reconcile with those who have hurt them.”
Pilgrim, Your entire comment is DEAD ON! You get it. So many think forgiveness is reconciliation when it is not. And even though you have “forgiven” them does not mean you cannot talk about it or warn others, either. Unless they acknowledge their spiritual abuse and repent there can be no reconcilation because there is no trust
We are to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves. When people who profess Him are mocking God by spiritually abusing His sheep, it is ok to warn others. It is not a sin. And first person truths are not gossip.
Perhaps they are the “war”locks. Mars..war…hmmm.
“The script is used all over the place. I’m trying to figure out if they teach it somewhere (using it intentionally-not my first guess) or does the doctrine they believe and teach perpetuate this type of attitude between leaders and members? It’s bizarre, very contrary to the teachings of Jesus, and becoming all too common in many circles.”
The script comes natural because they have first been taught they are the supreme “godly” authority in the church and they are to be obeyed. Then, they have them tatoo Hebrews 13:17 on their arms in invisible ink that only they can see. :o)
Dear Pastor Brrrrrraaaaaaaaddddddd: Pleasee remove me from your fellowship list. Please; please; please…
What, Pastor Randall? You don’t want to be “cared for”? This just proves you’re not “gifted”. We’ll be proceeding on to the shunning step now.
Still looking for ways to serve you,
Your friendly reconciliation team.
dee said:
“I still cannot believe I gave 2 years to this church. I used to say a year and a half but my husband has corrected me. I am still trying to figure out what happened to me.”
I fully believe God allows us/prods us/makes us walk in situations that we would otherwise never choose in order to equip us for ministering to others. It’s almost like a spiritual version of temporary insanity or something because you look back and wonder how in the world you ever bought into “that.” There is no reasonable explanation other than God preparing you to love and serve others.
Some people will say it was sin or pride or idolatry, but I don’t think that is always the case. I’ve been in a couple of situations where I wanted God’s will, prayed for God’s wisdom and leading, and still ended up in a mess. Looking back, I was focused on one aspect, but God had a completely different plan for it all.
Two quotes that are meaningful to me:
“Silence in the presence of evil is evil itself.” (Author unknown)
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)
I am thankful for Dee and Deb and this blog.
Pilgrim
Thank you so much.
Dee and Deb you are so ignorant didn’t you know God sent his son to die not for our sins but our sex lives!? That is why women can have multiple orgasms that last longer and men can demand all kinds of sexual positions. Thanks Jesus!
btw,the woman in the green in the Hitler rant video played the part of Trudl Jung in the movie. I saw an interview with the real Trudl Jung years ago when she was in her 80’s. She recounted her interview with Hitler to be one of his personal secretaries. She said he was the nicest, most compassionate boss she had ever had. She messed up badly on the typing test in the interview and he was very kind about it, helped her relax and take it over. He was always the perfect gentleman around her.
What does this tell us?
Since German history is one of my specialties, not really liking the use of this as comparison. Could be just a personal trigger though so don’t take it to heart. Read Luther’s book on Jews and their Lies. A book Hitler quoted from to rationalize his massacres of Jews. I never realized how bad that book was written until I read it. Luther appealed to the papacy with a plead toward mercy grace. It was not present in the final book he wrote. But Germany had a strong anti-semitic bent in the century prior to Luther as well.
This is how it was titled on You Tube. Note the warning.
“Sexperiment: Intro Song (don’t take it so seriously, it’s all in good fun & yes, worship)”
i.e. “Let’s Get It On” as an opening hymn?
WORSHIP??? Are these guys living in the same universe as me???
Who are they worshipping? Priapus and Asherah?
If so, where are the temple prostitutes?
We think that Meyer seems to be a lot like Piper in his mannerisms and style. TWW Prediction: Things will remain status quo after the change because Piper will be mentoring him for the next 2 years.
Meyer = Piper’s Mini-Me?
Reminds me a scene in the Valkarie a great movie that deals with those who were closely associated with Bonhoeffer.
It’s amazing the email threatening Paul Petry with dismembership and disfellowship was sent (while they were still members) by the head of the RECONCiLIATION team of pastors assigned to “care for Paul and his family during this time.” — Dave A A
It’s Newspeak. Where the Ministry of Love is the Secret Police, the Ministry of Truth is 2 + 2 = 5 Propaganda, and Joycamps come with Zyklon B showers and Krema ovens. Where the chocolate ration of 20 grams is increased to 10 grams, and Oceania has always been at Peace with Eurasia. Long Live Big Brother.
The more I read the more I am thankful that you gals are here to sound the trumpet. We can pretty much count on the heart of man to be predictably corrupt, and so the PR face saver masquerading as some faux reconciliation process will most likely run exactly as scripted here. I’ve seen it myself more than once. “We’re obviously right, so if there’s anything we can do to help you see how wrong you are, we’ll bend over backwards! We just want to help, honestly!” …is a damn cruel thing to say to people who still have your knife sticking out of their back. Lord have mercy, and bring some justice to bear so that your wounded sheep can find peace.
I’m the tax procrastinator this year…
Pilgrim- I believe you are making healthy choices. My husband and I have discussed about reconciliation many a time and what it looks like. There are some people/groups where nothing short of a miracle of the Holy Spirit you will never have a “voice.” I believe then, “reconciliation” then comes with Jesus and me at that time. I can cry and yell at Him about my pain, hurt, and suffering, and He will listen to me and lead me to still waters.
It was said that we had to “marry the church,” so then, there is no other place to go. They even given the only “good” reasons for leaving a church. And lastly, the “proper way” to leave the church. What a mind game!
I appreciate your thoughts, and they continue to remind me to move forward and learn, and keep giving my confusion and hurt at the foot of the cross. And lots of prayer…
Has anyone read the lyrics to that song??? I never knew!! Talk about an abusive relationship!!
Apropos of some of the comments:
“Praise the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort. He comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any kind of affliction, through the comfort we ourselves receive from God. For as the sufferings of Christ overflow to us, so through Christ our comfort also overflows. If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation. If we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is experienced in your endurance of the same sufferings that we suffer. And our hope for you is firm, because we know that as you share in the sufferings, so you will share in the comfort.” (2 Cor 1:3-7)
Also, some words from Charles Spurgeon on the subject:
http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2012/03/spurgeon-on-depression.html
As for Piper’s replacement, Jason Meyer, I have his book “The End Of The Law.” It’s a highly scholarly (difficult – for me, anyway) and valuable book on an important subject. I confess, though, that I did not read every word. Not surprisingly, there’s a blurb from Piper on the back cover.
Oh my goodness. In the lists of sins they’re always railing about they seem to have forgotten onanism because there’s an awful lot of it going on in that clip.
My other response was that the British sent convicts to colonise here in Australia but obviously they sent the asylum inmates to the Americas.
It was frighteningly sad.
“Has anyone read the lyrics to that song??? I never knew!! Talk about an abusive relationship!!”
Queen Momma, are you talking about “Let’s Get It On”?
Ugh. What’ll be their next hymn? Olivia Newton-John’s ‘Physical’ complete with spandex-clad musicians?
Cheesy Marvin Gaye impressions have no place in worship services.
cranston
Actually you are correct. Georgia was a prison colony.
While you are here, please let me apologize for sending Ed Young Jr to your fair country.My understanding is that he spends a lot of time at a few of your churches.
JeffB
Thank you for the Bible verse.
As for Meyer, I hope that he will be his own man and not a clone like happens at many SGM churches.I also hope he really believes that Jesus was the end of the law.” It seems to me some of these folks can theologize eloquent on the subject but revert to the OT in practice.
JJ
The standing ovation shows that the pew sitters are clueless. Do these people read their Bibles or do they pretend they are going to a cabaret? I remember once, in an FC Sunday school class taught by typical clone, said leader said that the lesson was going to be “Bible light.” I uttered that no announcement was necessary. That is all I got in that class anyway.
Then they brought in a local Dallas babe to lead a woman’s weekend. Her opening talk almost caused me to gag. This woman weighed about 110 pounds, soaking wet and was about 5’5″ tall. She said she wanted to share a secret with us. She claimed she as very nervous about speaking because she was not “toned” and that it was so embarrassing and she had been working for weeks on this travesty. I actually snorted out loud and had to simmer down because she, and Lisa, looked over at me.
JJ
I do not think any of these worship leaders have any business leading worship.
I could not bear to watch the sex video thing.
Christians already believe in that a person who lived in the first century was God in the flesh, that he performed miracles, that he was crucified and that he rose from the dead and then ascended into heaven, and that he promises to return and reign over all eternity. We also believe his death was more than an example of sacrifice, but that it, along with the resurrection, has the power to forgive the sins of people who believe in him. And if they believe, they will live forever in a place called heaven with God, Jesus and all other believers.
O.K. This, alone, is tough enough for outsiders to swallow. It seems totally ridiculous.
Why then do churches that believe this message employ tactics that cause them to be seen even further as not serious?
I firmly believe that churches must keep up with the times, and that it is a virtue, not a sin, to continually study and learn how to effectively communicate.
But at some point, the desire to update and be current in communications turns into what we might call “trying to hard.” It’s schmaltzy. It’s silly. They have jumped the shark and don’t even know it.
Very sad.
On the “Reconciliation” process devised by Mars Hill, who can blame them? I understand why they would to set up such process. After all, they engaged in tactics that are weird and abusive. So they should suggest something like this.
But this reminds me a lot of what you hear about cults. It reminds me a lot of places like the People’s Temple and Jim Jones.
Their communication methods and the way they say things have a certain code.
It gives me the creeps.
Any person who actually meets with the Mars Hill people is just setting themselves up for more emotional turmoil.
If a person has been kicked out, shunned or whatever, by this group, they should move on, forgive in their hearts as best they can, and get involved in a healthy church.
It might actually be healthy for these people to write Mars Hill a letter documenting how they were hurt and that while they appreciate the invitation to be “reconciled” (which they will accept as the closest thing they will ever get to an apology from Mars Hill), that they have moved on to a healthy church, that they forgive the people at Mars Hill, but that they have no desire to sit down and rehash all of it and do not feel it would be productive since they are no longer at Mars Hill and are involved in another church and do not want to be involved in Mars Hill again.
Look how the mighty $$$$ can buy, deceive and corrupt.
Link Here: RENSE.COM UNHOLY ALLIANCE PART 1
If this doesn’t wake you up, nothing will.
The founder of Campus Crusade for Christ Bill Bright recommended bringing Rev. Sun Myung Moon from South Korea to the USA to lead
the Unification Church. Rev. Moon proclaimed that he is the Messiah. He said Jesus had failed and all the top religious leaders went along with it.
WHAT BLASPHEMY!
I agree with Miguel when he said: The more I read the more I am thankful that you gals are here to sound the trumpet.
Let us all shout a big Hallelujah for TWW.
Dee,
That was very painful to watch.
The dudelicious shoes, I mean.
I for one literally thank God for the “Wartburg Witches” and for Pastor Wade Burleson as well as Fisher Humphreys and Walter Shurden. (Hope I spelled the names right!)
I like to make notes in my Bible, and date them.
Thanks to name naming authors and date giving in their writings, I’ve in the last six months been able to put dates and occurences to my experiences with a toxic church and pastor.
I’ve realized that what seemed like innocent questions from me really were just that. I had no idea I was voicing dissent my pastor was also hearing at a national level. I knew he was trustee at a seminary at that time, and on a specific national committee. I knew he had his eye on a state level job.
What I didn’t realize is that he came home from a contentious trustee meeting where it would seem some underhanded stuff went on only to have a meek little housewife in the pew calling his hand UNKNOWINGLY.
Write on, ladies and gentlemen!
The truth just might free us to be the people of God again!
Diane
If u watch Ed at all u will see he has adopted pointy toe shoes. So his clones do so as well
Because as u know Jesus told his disciples that go into all the world looking totally dudilicious.Somehow they remind me of elf shoes. But these are very bad elves who are up to no good.
Linda
Keep up the questions. These guys who say we are sinning by questioning would have done much better in the old Soviet Union.
Dee,
I had no idea about the pointy shoe adoption, he is someone I have no deisre to watch, but I do remember watching an Ed Young home tour video not too long ago where he gives us a peak at his shoe closet. I remember some white or green shoes he was describing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teW4XGSUPRo
The shoes floppin around looked like something you’d see on a leprechaun. Just add pointy ears and voila! a halloween costume! He looked ridiculous trying to walk in those things (eye roll).
linda,
Your comment has really peaked my curiosity! I’m so grateful you are seeking the truth along with the rest of us.
Why then do churches that believe this message employ tactics that cause them to be seen even further as not serious? — Anonymous
Over a year ago on Internet Monk, there was this comment in one of the threads:
Despite its weeping statues and flying houses, Catholicism is at its core a Serious Religion.
And Seven Day Sex Challenges and “Lets Get It On” and Santa’s Elf shoes do NOT say “Serious Religion.” Just the opposite — they say “Fluffbunny Play Religion.”
The shoes floppin around looked like something you’d see on a leprechaun. — Bridget2
Naah. Leprechauns have more sense than that. And a better sense of style.
Those shoes look like their wearer (Grinning Ed?) should be punching a timeclock for Santa Claus, cobbling toys together at the North Pole.
“I simply cannot let such a crime against fabulosity go uncorrected!”
— Rarity the Unicorn
Anonymous
Of course we want to be relevant. But I am finding some oddities to this new relevance. Take Driscoll. He makes a big deal about coming to a course to learn about microbrew beers. He talks about cage fighting, etc. Then, he turns on the theology and gets into the “sin of questioning” nonsense. Frankly, this is a tricky way to get to people. Suck them in with promises of grace (you can still drink alcohol- don’t worry) and then he schnockers them with legalism. It is superficial freedom with deep seated legalism that is far worse.
It’s funny. I have no trouble with alcohol consumption (like a glass of red wine)and I used to think that the old timey preachers who preached against drinking were bizarre. But, compared to this new crowd, at least I understood where they were coming from. This Calvinista crowd is very difficult to understand.For example, Piper claims to “know” why God sent a tornado (to show his displeasure at a conference of the ELCA which allowed for ordination of non-celibate homosexuals). Yet, God avoided Amsterdam and countries which have seen a decline in faith. This stuff appears to be harkening back to the OT.So what is it? The OT disguised in the NT or grace?
“Has anyone read the lyrics to that song??? I never knew!! Talk about an abusive relationship!!” — Queen Momma & Tina
Well, “Every Breath You Take” by Sting gets requested for a lot of weddings. Listen to the lyrics sometime.
Ugh. What’ll be their next hymn? Olivia Newton-John’s ‘Physical’ complete with spandex-clad musicians? — JJ
Remember my boldface comment above wondering “Where are the temple prostitutes?”…
HUG
That’s it!! From now on we shall call those shoes “fluff-bunny” shoes.Now I commend you to your new task. We must do fluff-bunny shoe sightings. Then we will know who is really, really relevant.
HUG
We have used “Every Breath You Take” as one of theme songs here at TWW. It has the stalker-like quality to it.
I can’t stand to watch Ed Young, but the shoes – they’re a fad from Mexico.
I saw them in a recent episode of Glee, where the cast did a dance number while wearing them. Not sure how many takes it took for that…!
Dee:
That is a very good insight.
Every new generation has a legalism of their own. They may avoid their parents’ legalism, but human nature is such that they will set up their own.
Of course, what’s unusual here is that it is done in the context of avoiding legalism.
We see this in other areas of society, too.
numo
You beat me to the punch. So, how far do you think Ed will go to “relate” He may fall flat in his face.
Dee – I half-hate to say this, but I would watch that! 😉
Headless Unicorn Guy – your comment about temple prostitutes was apt. Mark Driscoll has preached that wives need to repent and show their love for Jesus by performing certain sex acts. Makes me think of ‘Flirty Fishing’, advocated by the Children of God cult in the the 70s and 80s. It’s religious prostitution for the 21st century.
“…if you see an immortal in the faces of the checkout girl, the breakfast waitress and the guy on the streets you will see the face of God…”
Your are so close to the epiphany I had. You might be the last climbing rope and piton the checkout girl has. Your kind words to her (while other patrons are impatient & cold) might keep her from the abyss of suicide later that night. Rather than shoving Jeezus down her throat, you become Jesus and fulfill all the Law and the Prophets. (blasphemy! some would say)
Mexican Pointy Boots – a fashion trend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcNjnVqKZw4&feature=related
The dislikes far outweigh the likes, so it won’t be a trend for very long…
Muff –
Not blasphemy at all . . . Jesus cared for the complete well being of the person, from what I can tell. He went about “doing good” to others.
Dee,
It’s interesting that you link to A.B. Caneday’s site on the Jason Meyer biblio. Caneday has a new book out titled, “Must Christians Always Forgive?” A mutual friend has read it and says Caneday’s answer is “no.” I’m of the same persuasion. I’m trying to reconcile this with all the junk out now on authoritarianism and spiritual abuse. Funny how the abusers demand forgiveness.
Steve
Yep-the abused must forgive and the abusers demand “understanding.” They are, after all, the God ordained authorities. Frankly, I am tired of these guys, on many blog sites, asking people to whom they are accountable (within the pastor/elder driven churches.)
Steve,
The way I see it, forgiveness DOES NOT mean that I now have to sing Kum-By-Yah and have moonlit walks with my enemies, only that I refrain from retalitory strikes.
‘Sexperiment’…
HowDee YaAll,
“What’s Going On” ?
“So, what do you think of “Let’s Get it On” being the opening hymn for church?”
hmmm…
Pastor, Pastor
We don’t need to escalate
You see, sex is not the answer
For only Christ has conquer(ed) sin
You know we’ve got to find a way
To bring some awareness here today…
Oh!
Don’t punish me with brutish sex-gospel-al-ity
Talk to me about Christ
So I can see
What’s going on
Ya, what’s really going on
Pastor, please tell me what’s going on
I shouldn’t have to tell you you what’s going on – Uh
Right on?
I would venture a guess that for these folks there “Ain’t No (c)hurch Mountain ‘Low’ Enough” -snicker-
(grin)
hahahahahahaha
Sopy ;~)
___
Marvin Gaye – “What’s Going On” ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph0aELhsQoc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Comic relief: Bill Murray and the Heckler on Letterman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V8cefmEhf4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
There’s no doubt that we have the most talented commenters in the entire blogosphere!
Thanks Sopy!!!
Yes, Marvin Gaye’s lyrics to “Let’s get it on.”
“Then they brought in a local Dallas babe to lead a woman’s weekend. Her opening talk almost caused me to gag. This woman weighed about 110 pounds, soaking wet and was about 5’5″ tall. She said she wanted to share a secret with us. She claimed she as very nervous about speaking because she was not “toned” and that it was so embarrassing and she had been working for weeks on this travesty. I actually snorted out loud and had to simmer down because she, and Lisa, looked over at me.” – Dee
I’m confused about this comment in regards to the post or responding to JJ? My reaction has to do with protecting any women and their body image, regardless of how they look to others.
“It might actually be healthy for these people to write Mars Hill a letter documenting how they were hurt and that while they appreciate the invitation to be “reconciled” (which they will accept as the closest thing they will ever get to an apology from Mars Hill), that they have moved on to a healthy church, that they forgive the people at Mars Hill, but that they have no desire to sit down and rehash all of it and do not feel it would be productive since they are no longer at Mars Hill and are involved in another church and do not want to be involved in Mars Hill again.” -Anonymous
I think this is great for closure whether people actually send it or not. I had a good friend also tell me to write out how each hurt affected your life beyond the initial hurt (how it shapes your thinking, your relationships, how you see God, etc….). Now, actually sending it might mean you do have to reengage or don’t know how to keep the boundaries up if they pursue you. Having to extricate yourself again and repeatedly putting up boundaries can be very stressful if you’re not at that place yet. BUT, I know Petry’s paper trail is very courageous, brave, and smart.
Queen Momma
This has everything to do with “image.” Dallas is a different sort of place. Skinniness, plastic surgery, very expensive clothes and jewelry were hyped as the norm for even the poor. I knew women who worked very long hours just to be able to afford very expensive shoes. The average woman of average means and build would be looked down upon and excluded, even in some of the churches.
This young, very expensively dressed woman with an expensive hair style and looking obviously perfect as well as thin, made average women feel uncomfortable with themselves. There is no way a normal woman could compete with her to begin with and now the normal woman was made to feel even worse by this woman who was supposed to be a role model. I feel so bad for women trapped in such a culture. This was church and it was made to seem like a fashion show.Trust me, no ill dressed woman, or even a woman dressed in Target clothes would feel comfortable in such an environment. I know. I heard some women talking about how bad they felt about their appearance during the Woman’s Day.This was not church. It was another Dallas one upmanship club.
dee: Wasn’t it for that reason that Paul said that women should dress ‘modestly’ in church? As in, let the rich ladies tone it down so that those with plainer clothes and no jewelry won’t feel intimidated? I remember reading this somewhere.
Anne
Chandler’s church is in Dallas. Modesty and subdued are two words not found in the vocabulary of many women in that area. I still don’t understand what a wolf is. Does he attack you if you say “Bug off.” How about slapping him across the face? Are they so strong and physical that they attack you? Why do they come to church to “stalk women?”
Dee – agreed on the “wolf” thing.
Have been watching GCB and you know… it’s pretty funny, I suspect that some of the over-the-top things aren’t all that far from the reality, though. (As you’ve just stated re. looks, clothes, cosmetic surgery, etc. etc.)
Again re. the “wolf” men (whoever they are) – good Lord, women *can* think and act for themselves!
Unless these people have committed sexual assault, there’s no reason to make a big deal about “protecting the women.” (imo, at least.)
It’s yet another manifestation of the desire to treat women as if they were both property *and* children.
Gah!!!!!!!!!!
numo,
I’m with ya on the wolf stuff and the alleged connection (in some forms of xtian ideology*) to predatory human males. I think it’s ironic that wolves have been demonized in most all cultures except for the northern Native American tribes and the pre-ixtian Germanic tribes.
Modern scholars in the field are just now beginning to realize that wolf packs are genuine non-human societies that don’t breed themselves out of existence nor compromise limited natural (food) resources with the me-first-ism common to human cultures.
*Not just ixtian, but generally so in the other Abrahamic faith traditions — males can’t help themselves so it’s best that females remain protected forms of chattel and don’t advertise their wares so to speak —
not just monotheistic religions, Muff… there was lots of “protecting” going on in pre-Mao China, for example. Middle- and upper-class women weren’t even allowed to leave their houses without an escort, unless they came from a family that was progressive (sending girls to school, etc.).
Numo
GCB is not so far off the mark. Live there, seen some of this behavior and the rampant decollatage.
Eagle
I swear I have entered the Twilight Zone. Piper looooves Doug Wilson as well.
ALERT: The famous John Piper video is baaaaaaaaaaaack!!! LINK
I have updated the original post to reflect this development. Good for whoever did this. It is a fair use situation in my opinion. And to the John Piper fans, NO, I will not take it down until Piper deals with the situation.
deb–
If your curiousity is really peaked, get Pastor Wade to recommend some SBC history books for you. Eye opening.
But I do need to give someone credit. The pastor that so heavily damaged my soul for a time has himself come under the same kind of treatment. He is no longer one of the fair haired boys of the national leadership, and NAMB actions have put him in the same seat he put some of his parishioners in. (Belittled, name called, ignored, shamed, etc.)
TO HIS CREDIT–he seems to have learned from it, frequently talks in his state newspaper about how he should never have done some things he did as pastor, and truly seems to have repented.
God now seems to be using him in a way I heartily support.
Under those circumstances I dare not say his name.
Agreed numo, Judaism, Christianity, & Islam does not itemize the whole panoply of religious traditions.
I read once where there were a couple of Native American tribes (Algonquin Nation) in the Ohio River Valley in which chiefs were chosen and could only serve at the pleasure of a council of wise women. This of course all came a screeching halt with the advent of the Calvinist missionaries.
RE Video of John Piper discussing Doug Wilson
Q: Everybody in the crowd is laughing and who are the two buddies up on stage high-fiving each other?
A: Matt Chandler and Mark Driscoll.
Birds of a feather?
Anon
We will be discussing this in the near future. Chandler and Driscoll fist bumped each other as Piper rambled. It is most discouraging.
Am I the only one? Or does it look like Piper’s eyes could just as well be extolling the truth of a meth pipe?
Not that I’m saying Piper is a meth freak in actuality, but if a short vid glance is worth a thousand “ayes”, the eyes have it.
Muff, I have seen Piper in person quite a few times. I came to the conclusion years ago he is a performer. If you think his “passion” is ramped up on video, you should see him in person. And look around the audience….. People are mesmerized by him. It is creepy.
Just some thoughts on the videos…
I gotta be honest…I don’t really like the video with John Piper and Driscoll….and not because of those in it.
The video affirms why I never liked Driscoll or cared to listen to him…arrogance and a crude style of preaching. He is definitely irreverent when he preaches..
The “sound byte” videos mostly take clips of his preaching where he is playing the crowd, trying to be edgy and funny to appeal to his young congregation…
The only thing outside of that was his seeing ”
Again, you have another sound byte of Piper taken from another complete vid no doubt…Is John referring that he likes Driscoll’s style when he says theology! Um….don’t think so. Hasn’t Piper confronted Driscoll over his style (Especially when he cussed in sermons) before? Remember this happening…just don’t know how long ago..
I think piper is referring to Driscoll’s theology of the good news of Jesus Christ, most def his reformed stance I am sure…and maybe secondary issues like comp interpretations …etc…
The video shows nothing of the type…this is the problem with homemade sound byte videos that attempt to make a point…
Not defending Driscoll or Piper here, but the video doesn’t accomplish the supposed purpose to reveal a false teacher of flawed theology…It succeeds however to make Driscoll look like an idiot when he preaches and jokes to be edgy and play the crowd.
“Again, you have another sound byte of Piper taken from another complete vid no doubt…Is John referring that he likes Driscoll’s style when he says theology! Um….don’t think so. Hasn’t Piper confronted Driscoll over his style (Especially when he cussed in sermons) before? Remember this happening…just don’t know how long ago..”
Porno divinations are not part of Driscoll’s “theology”?
Meant to say seeing visions..
About the fist bump…?
This seems to be an old video…. If it is…Much has happened since then…(like more maturity on Chadlers part). Might be wrong again though!
Curious about your discussion on this…but still not buying that they are “birds of the same feather” because they preach at some conferences together, are friends, or fist bump on stage”…Was this unwise and a bit abrasive alongside Pipers comment…yeah…think so…And that is discouraging.
And Chandler has been abrasive and a bit immature in some of his ways, just don’t think he is on the same level as Driscoll..once again, as has been said SO many times over the last few days…time will tell..
And again, I have many friends who I laugh and love and care for tha have many issues and problems that I don’t agree with…I don’t stop loving them….I dont stop being their friends….I am not Just like them.
Muff
I have to admit, Piper’s eyes do have a certain gleam to them.
Seeker
When a man says he affirms someone’s theology, he should do so carefully. Driscoll’s theology is precisely what you see lived out in his statements. Theology isn’t some nerdy gobbledygook in which we have nuanced debates over a pint in a pub. Theology means something. It defines our practice.
Until Piper defines what he means by this statement, as far as I am concerned, he is affirming the preacher that is known as Driscoll. And if you say that Piper loves Driscoll’s “reformed” theology, then I say something is terribly wrong. God did not tell us about Himself for some guy to get a pass on his bizarre pornovision because those pornovisions are part and parcel of his theology.I think people are becoming schizophrenic when they can divorce theology from practice. That is a lie of the devil because even the devil is a good theologian yet he is still the devil. (Tozer, I believe)
So, this non-theologian has something to say to Piper. I despise any theology which says you can “bottom line” support this nonsense. This is hypocrisy of the worst sort.
Seeker
Unless Driscoll apologizes for his pornovisions and his SOS garbage, then as far as i am concerned, he still believes it.And his recent book does not give me any hope that he has “repented” from his visions.
Secondly, where did these visions come from? If he is really seeing them, then we all have a problem because this stuff is bizarre.Is this really a manifestation of the King of Kings?
One of the reasons that I study and seek to understand a the polity of a church is that the church polity is how the church lives its theology in community. And quite frankly, the polity of Mars Hill is the ego of Driscoll and is as sick as it can be as a result
Arce
Standing ovation from Raleigh.
I only used the meth analogy because my daughter in law once told me that when she worked in a clinical setting with drug abusers, the meth users had the wildest eyes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=gtiQhGQ46_M#t=37s
I am oddly reminded of this. Something about the extreme excess, the additions…
You know, reading that “reconciliation” dialogue freaked me. Exactly the same conversation took place in a Sydney suburban lounge room in the 90’s conducted by guys who were self-styled housechurch leaders, with no theological training, no mixing it with the big guys who’ve perfected this stuff, and, back then, virtually no internet access either. There is a common root of evil here, and seeing it that way is yet another step in my own healing.
Another thing, after watching that Driscoll/Piper video, I am going to stick my neck out and say that Driscoll himself was significantly sexually abused somewhere in his youth/childhood, and, being in denial of it, he is projecting it onto other people. Just another possible explanation for the porno-visions
BTW, I can’t even think of a category to put a person in whose favourite t shirt says ‘Jesus is watching you download porn’. (or whatever the exact words were) I thought my sersne of humour was rather over-developed, but i’m sitting here trying to think of any scenario in the universe where that would be even a tiny bit funny .. I think it’s very sad
Considering Mark Driscoll’s use of a controversial sex act to place his book on the top ten best sellers list I really do feel that dubbing him – Mark “The Sodomite” Driscoll – is a very appropriate act!
May it stick!
May we be quickly delivered from his evil!!!
Lynne
If Driscoll can have visions of people being molested, etc. then who is to say that your perception is incorrect? Certainly, Driscoll’s seeming obsession with the subject might lend itself to such an analysis.
Tod
I would not be surprised if Driscoll adopts it for himself. I am becoming less shocked and more saddened and irritated with every new pronouncement.
Tod:
I’m lobbying for “Deep Throat Driscoll” or “Bee Jay Driscoll”.
Muff
I have to admit, Piper’s eyes do have a certain gleam to them. — Dee
For what it’s worth (and I’m sure his True Believers will interpret it this way), there was a Christian Urban Legend in the Seventies that you could tell someone was a Real Christian because “you can see the Holy Spirit gleaming in his/her eyes.”
(I remember putting my eye up to the TV during a Presidential speech of the time to see if Gerald Ford had the Holy Spirit Gleam in his eyes, and later on Salem Kirban’s all-bread-and-water Holy Spirit fad diet claimed the same thing, that if you followed the Godly Diet — including measuring and weighing everything you crapped out while on it — you could see the Holy Spirit shining forth from the dieter’s eyes.)
HUG
I think I am losing my mind.
“For what it’s worth (and I’m sure his True Believers will interpret it this way), there was a Christian Urban Legend in the Seventies that you could tell someone was a Real Christian because “you can see the Holy Spirit gleaming in his/her eyes.”
(I remember putting my eye up to the TV during a Presidential speech of the time to see if Gerald Ford had the Holy Spirit Gleam in his eyes, and later on Salem Kirban’s all-bread-and-water Holy Spirit fad diet claimed the same thing, that if you followed the Godly Diet — including measuring and weighing everything you crapped out while on it — you could see the Holy Spirit shining forth from the dieter’s eyes.)”
If I wasn’t a Christian, I would commence to take up drinking.
Eagle
I am referring to drinking as opposed to a glass of wine!
HUG
I think I am losing my mind. — Dee
Take a number and stand in line. I’m convinced we’ve been living in a South Park episode for the past several years.
“What a long, strange trip it’s been…”
— The Grateful Dead
Do you know the parking garage where Mark Felt met with Bob Woodward in Arlongton during the Watergate investigation is marked with a historical marker? — Eagle
Not surprising. It WAS a historical event with historical consequences. Still sounds a bit strange, though.
P.S. Dee?
I was never on that fad diet. My writing partner had a relative who was for a time, and told me the gory details.
As for Salem Kirban himself, all I can say is he wrote the absolutely WORST Christian fiction ever written — the novels 666 and 1000, the “Eye of Argon” of the Christian Apocalyptic genre, still in print and on the shelves of the Jesus Junk stores after 30+ years.
Come to think of it, Dee, pour me a shot too. Not enough alcohol in the world to get what I just wrote above out of my memory…
Dee,
“Eagle
I swear I have entered the Twilight Zone. Piper looooves Doug Wilson as well.”
Piper does seem to promote Wilson, doesn’t he? Why, I wonder? I figure you all know about the Steve Sitler ordeal? When I read about it and his marriage last summer I was in total shock. I wonder about the mindset/morality of a pastor (Wilson) who would approve a courtship and marriage to a convicted pedophile, who is on lifetime probation and not ever to be left alone with children. Very disturbing.
Diane
I do not know about the Steve Sitler thing . Can you point me in that direction?
dee, surprised you hadn’t heard about that case.
WTH
One more example of my fallen state.
Doug Wilson is like some pasha dictator. I used to read his blog and mablog (or whatever it was called) and when you said something he did not like, he would demand the name of your pastor and his phone number to have you “disciplined”. He was dead serious. And you would be banned unless you gave it to him.
There used to be a blog by a guy who went to Wilson’s college in Idaho who came to see him as a sort of cult leader and was trying to get away from him., Problem is, he had moved his family and was looking for a job to get away.
Wilson is a dominionist and closely aligned with the Bayly brothers and Doug Phillips. The fact that Piper is promoting him tells you a lot about Piper. HE is doing his shock jock thing. last year it was Rick Warren and before that, Driscoll.
anon1, this blog, maybe?
http://www.poohsthink.com/
dee, there’s a lot of blogs so sometimes one or two slip by, right? 🙂
Dee,
If you are interested google Steve Sitler Katie Travis marriage and that will bring up their wedding video last summer where you can see Doug is officiating. I have not been able to find any info on them since as far as if she is pregnant yet. I imagine that will be announced somewhere. It is very depressing reading, imo.
In a nushell, Sitler arrived at Wilson’s St. Andrews College in 2003. He was convicted on several counts of child sexual abuse in 2005. He had been living with some families there with small children while at NSA. He had a prior history of abuse before arriving at St Andrews–2 other states, I believe. Anyway, he was taken under Doug’s wing after the arrest. He ended up only serving one year for his crimes. Doug wrote a letter for leniency to the judge. He ended up receiving lifetime probation and a host of other restrictions including never being able to be alone with children, nor near schools, must have a escort, internet access restricted… a bunch of other stuff.
Sitler was introduced (via courtship arranged by Doug Wilson and another elder at his church) to Katie Travis. Her parents evidently saw nothing wrong with having a convicted pedophile on lifetime probation as a future son in law for their 23 year old daughter and neither did Katie, but I am only assuming that from reading about her excitement and joy over her upcoming wedding in a special blog she and Steve set up. I will try to find that and link. He already violated his parole once shortly after his release from jail in 2006. If he is caught one more time, evidently he gets sent to jail immediately. At his wedding there were prayers said for a fruitful marriage for the blessing of children. I read that the state of Idaho did not recommend this wedding but were unable legally to stop it.
This will get you started-
http://www.tomandrodna.com/CR_2005_02027/
Dee,
Here are some links I remember reading:
http://federal-vision.blogspot.com/2008/03/serial-pdophile.html
http://federal-vision.blogspot.com/2008/07/steven-sitler.html
http://www.newwest.net/index.php/city/article/9225/C136/L136/
http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com/2011/05/marriage-part-2-with-letter-to-ed.html
http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com/2011/05/marriage-part-3-open-letter-to-ed.html
http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2011-June/076773.html
http://theironhare.xanga.com/606584338/doug-wilson-steven-sitler-child-molester-christ-church-moscow-idaho/
http://june11eleven.com/?page_id=104
Anon1
I would looooooove for him to ask me for my church’s name. I’d happily give it to him and be prepared to go to war.
What is with these IDIOT (appropriate use of adjective) pastors who try to hide/restore/cure/rehab pedophiles at all, much less in the midst of a uber-fertility land!?!?!
More on John Piper/Doug Wilson connection:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7io8WSjg7A&feature=channel
Interesting whether you agree with Paul’s conclusions or not.
Mara
I think it is time for a post on this issue. We plan to talk about it in the next couple of weeks.Thank you for this info. We don’t know what we would do without our readers.
Mara,
Here is the YouTube video with Piper explaining why he invited Doug Wilson to speak at the 2009 Desiring God conference.
Why Doug Wilson? John Piper
As I think back to this time, Dee and I had just started blogging. We had been doing lots of research and knew that guys like Doug Phillips and Doug Wilson were reconstructionists (dominion theology). We just didn’t know enough about it to write intelligently.
Here is Piper interviewing Doug Wilson, Sam Storms, and Jim Hamilton in 2011.
An Evening on Eschatology
This is an interesting clip with Piper, Driscoll, and Chandler talking about Doug Wilson.
John Piper on Doug Wilson
And here is Piper talking about the 2012 Pastors Conference.
2012 Desiring God Pastors Conference
Yes, I will be writing a post soon on the Piper-Wilson connection.
I heard Jason Meyer speak on Feb 4 at Piper’s church. I was not impressed at all. As a matter of fact, it was a lot of effort on my part to get past his screaming and seeming anger at the congregation to see if he had anything of spiritual value for my soul. I shuddered when Piper announced him as the “unanimous choice of the elders.” And if you listened to Piper’s message this past weekend, there is no question in his mind that this man is God’s choice. One thing is absolutely clear. When John Piper, the pastor for preaching and vision, leaves there will be a mass exodus from Bethelehem Baptist. When he is gone on his frequent speaking engagements/vacations/writing leaves attendance drops about 30 percent. It is very noticeable. And if Jason Meyer is voted in, that 30 percent will stop coing immediately, and then who knows how many others will. And BBCMPLS is trying to get congregational approval to buy a piece of property for their south campus and probably buils a $10-15 million building on that property. Not a smart move. Someone in some post said that it is conventional wisdom in a large church to let the most talented speaker to be the preaching pastor, but then he becomes something of a celebrity. That is very true in this case. I know i am not popular here befause of my complementarian views, but as a member of Piper’s church I see a good church that is going to walk into huge problems. I am not a pessimist, but a business man. And this is a fool’s errand. And yes, I have made my views known. But I am not an elder or a 6 figure giver, so my opinion does not matter.
Bob
Popularity at this blog is not based on which side of the fence you sit on but whether you can defend your point of view with style. Judging from the response of some of the readers, I would say “Mission Accomplished.”
And I am fascinated by your insight into Piper’s replacement. I agree that committing to a $10+million facility when Piper is going to take a stroll is inadvisable.Why must buildings be built? Are there not lots of vacant rentals in your area due to the economy?
NO, not in that area. They have been bouncing from high school to high school. My thinking is that Piper wants to get the plan in place and the first bit of financing done before he moves on. But publicly, it is because they do not like the temporary facilities.
“Just like South Park, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
Well, that means South Park has officially jumped the shark…
Doug Wilson is like some pasha dictator. I used to read his blog and mablog (or whatever it was called) and when you said something he did not like, he would demand the name of your pastor and his phone number to have you “disciplined”. He was dead serious. And you would be banned unless you gave it to him.
…
Wilson is a dominionist and closely aligned with the Bayly brothers and Doug Phillips. — Anon1
Dominionist. As in Dreaming of extending his Holy “Pasha Dictatorship” across the entire land, with all the life-and-death power of the State to back him up and carry out the Pasha’s Will.
“For Holy State, as we have learned,
Endeth in Holy War.”
— Rudyard Kipling, “MacDonough’s Song”
Thanks Dee. That makes sense. I purposefully TRY not to clean my house when my fellow moms come over. I’ve seen too many women bawl that their house is not “perfect” like the hostess’ and think something is wrong with them.
Been sick, sick, sick, and have had relatives invade the house! Looking forward to catching up!