“Please let me know if you have any questions or need anything.”

See?
They really are nice people.

Wow, what a shock to find out the Acts 29 guy, Scott Thomas, was the “lead mediator” in the trial of Petry. (who was not allowed to attend his own trial)

You know, this whole Mars Hill/Acts 29 thing reminds me of a book I read as a teen: The Lord of the Flies.

FWIW, Chandler may speak at a lot of conferences, but he has a binding agreement with his primary employer. He is in the pulpit at Village Church 40 weeks a year. He can miss a maximum of 12. I’ve seen preachers from way smaller churches do way worse.

Until you posted the link, I hadn’t read Don Carson’s response to Driscoll. It was good, and I’m glad that a guy from the Gospel Coalition, which Mark has buddied up to, has spoken out and corrected him. Good on you, Don!

Dee:

While I am waiting on Miquel to respond to me, do you know of many small church pastors who are out of their pulpit more than 12 weeks?

Insinuating or assigning guilt by association is a typical fundamentalist attitude that we all have to be careful of. Sometimes, a guy doesn’t speak at a conference because of who he will share the stage with, but because he knows the attendees need to hear something that they will not hear anywhere else because their circle of influential mentors is so small.

Dee: you struck a chord with:
” But, I still do not believe that the Sunday sermon defines a preacher. A preacher lives out his life amongst those he is called to serve. One may as well be a professor of soteriology delivering a lecture.”
And not just them preachers. In his Martian Robotics talk Driscoll described the Sunday school teachers’ task as “delivering age appropriate lectures.”
I think the “serving by delivering a lecture” concept goes straight back to Augustine, a professional lecturer, but, not so much, to the Bible.

Yeah I’ve seen how this reconciliation process goes because I have “Reconciliation Vision”, although it’s not a supernatural gift like “Porno Vision”, but rather the visions triggered from the recollection of firsthand observation.

Cast:

Reconcilitors – the elders / shepherds with assumed supreme authority over everyone and also the ones with the greatest need for CYA.

Reconcilee – the one blindsided from out of nowhere that now finds they are outside the chicken coop so to speak in an extremely stressful and potentially damaging situation.

The process goes like this.

Reconcilitors: We sincerely and profusely apologize for the fact that as your shepherds we have allow a situation to occur that has resulted in the conflict we now find ourselves in. We believe this is all a result of sin. Sin on our part which we have just now confessed, and sin on your part which we hope to help you see and then gently guide you also to the point of confession. So, if we do find there to be sin on your part, will you also be willing to confess and take whatever steps we deem necessary to complete the reconciliation process? After all reconciliation is a two way street.

Reconcilee: huh?

Reconcilitors: You seem hesitant to submit to this process, why is that?

Reconcilee: What? You did ____ and it was flat wrong and I thought you wanted to make it right with me?

Reconcilitors: Well there you have it. What actually precipitated ____ was your initial disrespect of our authority, which we may point out, is now happening again with your refusal to submit to our Biblical reconciliation process. So, now we must begin to uncover your underlying sin issues which are prohibiting you from seeing things clearly and are therefore causing you to question our Biblical authority.

Reconcilee: Please excuse me; I need to leave now this is just bizarre.

Reconcilitors (public message regarding situation): We have earnestly and prayerfully sought to bring healing and wholeness to the ___ situation. Unfortunately, reconcilee is refusing to acknowledge their role and take the necessary steps on their part to bring about true goodness. We will continue to pray for ___ in hopes that they will truly come to desire reconciliation in this matter.

That’s the vision, and I’ve seen it multiple times here in the Pacific Northwest. And yes it is related to the direct influence of MH and A29. Go figure.

Dee,

It is a PASTOR that lives his/her life out among those who are in the church and in their community, not a PREACHER. The difference is significant. Relatively few preachers at churches with an attendance over 500 on a Sunday actually interact other than from the pulpit (and maybe a handshake line) with the hoi polloi in the pews. That is the responsibility of staff (associate and assistant pastors, or some other title). Those mega church preachers do very little pastoring, except perhaps to the top level of their staff, where they are the boss in an employer/employee relationship.

I feel somewhat conflicted here. As a former Fellowship Church (Ed Young) member, I watched carefully as Ed became less and less a pastor and more and more a card-carrying, private jet-traveling, authority-demanding, narcissistic celebrity. Our departure after 10 years was emotional, and as we searched around for another place to attend and plug in, we found ourselves regularly at Matt Chandler’s Village Church.

Having been there now for about 2 years, I can say that Matt, at least from the observation deck, seems to be humble, reserved, friendly, in-the-midst, outstanding Bible teacher, vulnerable, and not prone to talk about money each and every week. In fact, in almost 2 years, I have never, not once, heard any speaker from the stage talk about the tithe in any manner other than to announce that because the church had exceeded its giving budget over a period of time, the elders had determined to give that excess to several local and farther ministries to forward those works.

Matt has this tendency, which I sense is truly authentic, where at the final ‘amen’, after a well prepared and superbly delivered sermon, to look the audience in their freshly opened eyes from prayer, say, “I love you guys…”, pick up his own stand, and walk off behind the curtain. Always in that moment, I truly believes he means it, and has great compassion and concern for his local flock.

All of that being said, I agree with the ladies of TWW that Matt seems to be, or already is, on the line of being or becoming the next ‘rock-star’ preacher and forsaking the local flock for the global flock with its inherent payday. I for one will be watching closely for signs of the exit, ala Ed, and praying that Matt keeps foremost the health and vibrance and effectiveness of the local body he leads. I believe his elder board to be a very conservative and contemplative group of folks, not prone to relish the bright lights of stardom that may be coming Matt’s direction.

Time will tell. Prayer will help. Surely God did not save Matt from the brain tumor just to have him succumb to the way of celebrity. Surely.

David:

Very nice!

The part that’s missing:

Reconcilee goes to Reconcilitors because Reconcilitors (multiple choice – and all answers can be correct):

Reconcilitors never believed they ever did anything wrong in the first place.

Reconcilitors believe all Reconcilees are all full of anger and bitterness anyway.

Reconcilitors don’t actually give a rip about you.

“Can’t you just imagine if many people from Sovereign Grace or Acts 29 cancelled the conferences and donated the money they would have spent to “the least of these?” Now wouldn’t that be REAL Christianity…”

YES. Thanks, Eagle.

Deb,

I am thankful you and Dee make note of those leaders are doing ministry for God’s glory! I agree with you as well.. Many are out for their own shameful gain.

By the way: Here is the link for Chan’s blog. http://francisupdates.tumblr.com/

Scroll down where it says “I’m Finally Obeying, and I love it”

Pretty awesome stuff!

Eagle:

You said,

“But I don’t get the financial aspect. Think of all the wasted money… Consider:

1. Renting out a large venue. i.e. arena
2. All the people who have to travel, rent a hotel room, etc..
3. All the money spent on gas to drive, and to park the car in an urban area.
4. Money spent on food.

Can’t you just imagine if many people from Sovereign Grace or Acts 29 cancelled the conferences and donated the money they would have spent to “the least of these?” Now wouldn’t that be REAL Christianity”

I can’t really speak for Sovereign Grace or A29…but I think Conferences can be useful.

I have been to a few as well, and I found them to be very helpful on many levels…Not only edifying me with my relationship with Christ, but bringing awareness to the least of these. If it is a good conference, they will utilize the community to mobilize action for the least of these:

Case in point:

Passion Conference 2012. College Students donated into the millions for ministries that support ending Sex Trafficking around the world. This got national media attention, and brought some awareness and action to a major problem.

They connected with this: http://72daysforfreedom.com/….

It would be awesome if all conferences could support the least of these like this.

Dee, regarding your post from 8:24 AM, I offer a hearty AMEN!! You and I and a very small number of others simply have a different definition of what it means to be a pastor. Sadly, not all that long ago our thoughts on what makes a real pastor were very much the mainstream belief.

Seeker –

“’A preacher lives out his life amongst those he is called to serve.’

This statement is true. There is no doubt…but may we not diminish the importance of preaching/teaching the word.

There is a reason the Apostles called on some godly people to rise up and “serve tables.” They were concerned with the preaching/teaching of the Gospel.

There is a reason the Bible calls Elders having a “double honor” when they handle the affairs of the church, ESPECIALLY when it comes to preaching/teaching.

This is not my observation. This is scripture. Does this mean a pastor should focus on preaching and never interact with the lives of his congregation? Of course not…but there is an emphasis in scripture on preaching and teaching the good news that is apart from serving. The one thing that distinguishes an Elder is his ability to teach the word of God.”

I must disagree with you, Seeker, on much of what you say in the quote above. You elevate teachers/preachers to a different level, just as many in the Reformation did. You seem to interpret the Bible through the lens of the Reformation. Although good came from Reformation movement, in many ways they did not Reform enough. They fell to some of the same missteps as the Catholic church. The main difference being that the “preacher dispensing the Word” is now the main focus instead of the the “Catholic priest dispensing the sacraments.”

The Gospels are a good place to look and see how Jesus viewed leadership/serving, not the men of the Reformation, nor men as early on as Augustine, nor from your neighbor, nor from me 🙂

IMO – Jesus did more ‘living amongst’ than preaching/teaching “to” people. He actually taught, doing what he taught at the same time. There does not seem to be a separation in his teaching/doing/living. Since he is the God/man, surely we can look to his earthly life to see how he taught, lived, and did life. BTW – there is no “preacher” in scripture. I believe the term is “able to teach.”

Alan- Oh, it happens. It happened this year and for the last 5 years at major conferences at least. I was not referring to Elephant Room, which was just a little round table discussion.

Kathi-

By your comment it looks like you are running the ship:

“I told my husband that we were never setting foot in that church again and he couldn’t have agreed more.”

Deb, Eagle,

Re: your thoughts on the hypnotic / psychological aspects of conferences:

I agree. I don’t have the time and mental capacity to do true research & soundly articulate, but I did see what came up when I googled “psychology of pep rally”.

Thought this was interesting (from Minnesota Law & Politics, thoughts on the Republican Convention):

“We fear, with considerable justice, the mob: its size, its psychology, its raw power. Holm remembered a sentence from an old book: “Beware the single truth. Inside it anywhere on earth is a loaded gun pointed straight at your head.” What, then, is a political convention but an organized mob, we hope with better manners and less violence in its heart?”

http://www.lawandpolitics.com/minnesota/The-GOP-Pep-Rally/5478838f-4030-4bd5-a6a5-9781b75fbcfa.html

I think comparisons can be drawn.

As for “double honor” – it does not mean “double pay.”

Nor should it include a “get out of jail free” card.

Bridget,

“7The word of God kept on spreading; and the number of the disciples continued to increase greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were becoming obedient to the faith.”

This comes directly after the Apostles calling those to serve tables. To answer your question, one can infer that the Apostles did not neglect proclaiming the good news of the Gospel and the testimony of Jesus Christ. They were, in essence, making Disciples.

Please don’t misunderstand me here…I am by no means saying that they did NOT SERVE or perform ANY WORKS as they taught and proclaimed the Gospel. Obviously, if they failed to do this, that would contradict what the majority of the book of James is about. I AM saying that the importance of teaching/preaching (proclaiming) should not be diminished in any way in the same way as living by the word and serving should not be diminished in any way.

I guess I just don’t buy into the argument that guys like Chandler and Platt are disqualified as Pastors because they are in a mega church. They emphasize preaching/teaching the Gospel, but I also see where they serve and work for others. Platt is an exceptional example of that.

Anon,

Good points…and I agree with everything you said. I don’t see double honor as “money”. And I don’t see these scriptures as promoting a professional cleric.

I see it as emphasizing the importance of teaching/preaching the Gospel…as we work and serve others in the name of Christ.

And yes..I agree…Grab your wallet and run! 🙂

Bridget–

Agreed…we are all the priesthood of believers. I don’t believe “preachers” have the sole responsibility, but they do need to emphasize that responsibility.

Thanks for the conversation!

“…Then there is the Pastor of Technology who needs to do something about the spam folder…”

Yeah Dee, see if you can get your droid to fix it so I can spell ‘soshalist’ in the normal fashion without it seeing an embedded erectile dysfunction med.

RE: elastigirl on Fri, Mar 30 2012 at 03:22 pm:

I agree. If the churches would get back to Christianity and go easier on the “Paulianity”, even old Muff might get lured back.

Bridget,

You said,

“It’s hard for me to view Mega Church leaders as “pastors” because there is no way that they can “know” all those people. Even Jesus had a small number that he “knew.” He did not pretend to be able to care for all (though he was God). He raised “some” up. They in turn discipled others. They then moved on to other cities. It took the short lives that they lived to reach several areas. The 12 seemed to have different giftings. None seemed to desire a huge following, but instead did the small numbers well. As far as I can tell, preaching as we know it today, came from a scholastic background, not from scriptures. I think we often lose Jesus to the preaching.”

Some good points and observations! You have me thinking a lot…may have to come back to some of this later…

The question I have for now is this?

What do our churches need to do? Do we limit our church sizes to 12-20 people to practice Jesus’ example? Even Jesus taught large crowds at many points throughout his ministry? Was he not “Shepherding” people at that moment?

Should we disband the innumerable churches all over the world and delegate them to house churches to keep this close disciple intimacy?

In my community, we have churches that only average between 100-300 people. Not exactly “mega”. But the truth is, Pastors in these churches need support to meet the needs of their congregation. One man, even in these small churches, may find it hard to “shepherd” every member alone. This is why we have deacons, small group leaders, other staff members, etc to support the pastor in his shepherding role.

Chandler and Platt…both megachurch leaders…have similar support in their church that functions in this way. (On a much larger scale of course)

Platt, for example, at the Church at Brook Hills, has numerous small groups.

These small groups are based upon mentoring each other and going out and making disciples. Platt and the other Elders emphasize this in the pulpit and throughout the church. The intimacy you described above with Jesus and His Disciples has transitioned into the Small Groups at Brook Hills?

The awesome result is that intimate community has been built up in these small groups around the Gospel of Jesus Christ! Want to know the cool part? These small groups have acted on their own to host Bible Studies with their neighbors in their neighborhood, working locally in the community at schools, supporting adoption agencies..and on and on…..This small group intimacy has translated into making other Disciples in the Birmingham area!!!

I get excited when I hear that. You see, although David is not involved in every small group..(that is impossible)…He is involved with oveseeing and participating in similar acts that these small groups participate in. I am sure Platt interacts and supports as many of his people as he can as their Pastor, but where he cannot, he has the support of the deacons, small groups, other staff members…etc… Even the apostles needed support.

Should we still disqualify him as Pastor? He may not know everyone…but He is doing everything as the lead Pastor of that church to make sure someone “knows” them. He sees the importance of what you mentioned above, hence why small groups are emphasized. (Check out the Brook Hills website to see what I am talking about)

I totally get where you are coming from though. One problem I have seen in the Bible Belt area that I am from is the “preaching of the word” is more about imparting knowledge than teaching the Gospel and Living out the Gospel in our lives. It is all about scholasticism! That is why I shout for joy when I see a church like Platt’s succeed where so many have failed in the bible belt.

Dee –

My observation is that the term is now used as “the proper and correct doctrines we teach at this (c)hurch.”

I almost dislike using the term “Gospel” anymore because of what it means to other people. 🙁

Dee,

The Gospel..short and sweet….is the good news of Jesus Christ. His atoning work for us on the Cross…the hope we have in the Resurrection. THIS is the Gospel…nothing else.

I do agree that most pastors preach this Gospel..but how well do they emphasize it?

For example, where I am from, many pastors emphasize behavior modification. They preach hours upon hours on what God expects of you and what He does not expect from you….and maybe right before the invitation, the pastor will say something like this….”Jesus Christ loves you and died for your sins. If you want to accept Jesus, walk the aisle….OR, even worse…If you want to accept Jesus….repeat this prayer after me!”

They have watered down the gospel…tremendously. They do not emphasize the Good News of Jesus Christ. David Platt talks endlessly about this..and he would understand…he lives one state away from me…(Yep…I live in the great state of MS…I live in South MS to be exact…the middle of the buckle of the bible belt.)

I am not saying preachers fail to teach the good news of Jesus. Every preacher here in the South will teach on the cross at some point….But I have seen an alarming trend where the good news is not emphasized..they emphasize so many other things…(Gifts of the Holy Spirit, the Law, Cooperative Program, Alcohol=Run Away, Harry Potter=Satan…you get the picture..)

In the midst of this…the Good News is watered down. And you can tell.. In my community, there is an epidemic where people fail to understand the good news of Jesus Christ….So many feel the need to get saved again and again and again…Some people think it’s all about church attendance….Most about behavior modification…Some about Baptism…Very little about the Atoning Work of Christ.

It pains me. I know many try to use the word “Gospel” to mean their specific doctrine..but I am not one of those people…The Gospel is the atoning work of Jesus Christ…the Hope of the Resurrection…

Sad…but true…

Dee,

I believe that when people turn to Christ from hearing the good news of the gospel—their lives are transformed.

In that sense, this good news affects every area of your life. When we think on the good news, we obey Christ not out of obligations but out of a sense of deep gratitude. When we “get” his great love for us..it is easy to respond to that love in obedience.

This can affect our marriages, how we serve others, our generosity, our daring to be “radical” for Christ…so on and so forth.

In that sense, this good news can become something that affects everything.

The two “Calvinistas” that I respect— Chandler and Platt–as far as I know..would not consider gender roles, pastoral authority, etc as the “Gospel”…I think they may say their interprretation of those things are “Biblical”.

As far as the classes—I can think of many long time Christians in my community who are still slurping on the “spiritual milk”. They might could benefit to be reminded about the “good news”….I think teaching the Gospel is not something that should be preached on a one time basis to non-Christians or young Christians…I think everyone..no matter where they are…can always benefit from a reminder on Christ’s grace in His atoning work for us on the Cross and the power of His resurrection.

“I also hate the word of the moment. Right now there are several “unpack”, “winsome”, Gospel (fill in the blank), . . . )

I once heard a Christian broadcaster ask, “How can we make the Gospel so winsome?” I want to cringe when I hear that word, because the mental picture I get at the word “winsome” is of someone talking with a very wide, fake smile.

Seeker, It would be interesting to hear your definition of the “Gospel”.

Anon1,

It is the Atoning work of Christ on the Cross. The Hope of the Resurrection. It literally is the “Good News” of Jesus Christ.

(See above where I responded to Dee)

“It is the Atoning work of Christ on the Cross. The Hope of the Resurrection. It literally is the “Good News” of Jesus Christ.”

Thanks Seeker, That was not a trick question at all. I am finding more and more I need to ask to know where someone is coming from.

You said earlier: “My point in that was I think they would not call those things “gospel.” Those are secondary things they teach from scripture.”

Actually that is not the case at all. They are melding secondary doctrines into primary and making them salvic. They would not admit this but if you listen long enough you pick up on the nuance in their teaching/preaching. A few of these secondary things they make primary in subtle ways are: Elder rule. Obeying Leaders. Comp/pat doctrine.

Just keep your ears open. They use language such as “Gospel marriage”. “Elder rule is biblical”, “Godly authority”, etc. They won’t say they are salvic but your salvation will be questioned if you dare challenge them on it. You never know when you will become the next narcissistic zero. (wink)

 
HowDee YaAll,

MD trying to pervert (C)hristianity with questionable bedroom practices, in his latest tomé, is certainly a identifiable flashpoint, dontcha think? What a filthy thing to do to kind decent folk. 

Just maybe, Acts 29’s impoverished members facing spiritual abuse at the hands of a errant celebrity pastor will get a reprieve from this type of pastoral behavior now that he has barricaded himself in at Marz Hill. One can only hope. I feel so sorry for the folks in Seattle. May the Lord demonstrate His kind mercy & grace. Celebrity Pastors don’t take defeat lying down.  Ask C.J. Mahaney.

Thank you Dee & Wanda for assisting in the turning of the tide on this American (C)hristian travesty. May this be a watershed for all future aberrant false shepherds who dress in cheap sheep suits making a loud painful noise signifying nothing of real significance or lasting importance.

Also Mssr. Thomas Nelson & Co. shame is what you have brought upon yourselves for publishing this filth.  It is about the gospel of Christ, silly company. I feel very sorry for the future of your company. How can it possibly be bright and smooth sailing when you move a (c)hristian publisher to publish such questionable material in a (C)hristian market. Now we have seen it all.  Messr. Thomas Nelson & Co. have you become a spiritually and morally vacant (c)ompany? Sure looks like it when viewed from da cheap seats, huh?

(Sadface)

I do not rejoice when folks, dat do bad things, pay for their behavior. Yet therez noth’in to stop me from rejoicing -dat the Lord Jesus, He sits at the right hand of God. 

He does all things well, dontcha know!

(grin)

hahahahahahahaha

Sopy ;~)

Sopy & Deb –

From what I can tell, both CJ and MD are simply retreating behind the lines (or hiding behind their front men’s skirts) and retooling “their” ministries. They hope to minimize their losses ($$$) and move forward without cause for real alarm to those who are under the influence. I, like Sopy, feel bad for those who are in the smaller circles. I pray that their spiritual eyes awaken to the darkness they are under. The smaller the circle, the deeper the harm to the ones in that circle.

Bridget2 – I actually think that a lot of people have lost sight of what it means to be a pastor/to pastor due to the intense emphasis on “preaching/teaching” that exists in many churches and parachurch movements.

From my perspective (revert to Lutheranism; am a member of the ELCA synod), pastors are supposed to be there *with* the members of the church – you know, visiting the sick, providing counseling when/if needed, just being there.

*not* being a “star” in the pulpit.

I have never encountered the kind of adulation for preachers/preaching in the Lutheran church that seems to exist in other denoms. That’s *not* to downplay the importance of preaching; only to say that I think it’s not incumbent upon the pastor (official title in the ELCA) to be some sort of pulpit-bound figurehead who issues official proclamations (or some such; am kind of drowsy and words are a bit elusive right now).

I mean – nobody is trying to force “teaching” on anyone. If anything, I think the basics are covered very well in the Apostles and Nicene Creeds – and there certainly are opportunities provided for further study and exploration, but nobody *has* to join in – unlike what I have seen and experienced in many other churches.

On top of all that… the pastor at the church where I grew up knows some of my abusive church story. And there has been *no* pressure at all for me to do anything – quite the contrary. imo, his sensitivity to me (and likely others) who have been in abusive situations is an illustration of what pastoral ministry is *supposed* to be about.

But then, the setup – which is that congregations choose from pastoral candidates when there is a vacancy (death, retirement, change of job) is a given. so is a church council (members elected annually; voting open to all active members – in this case, “active” = people who have attended a service and/or taken communion within the past 5 years; the elderly and home-bound are exempt from that rule, I think.)

It’s so very different from the way most nondenominational churches are run – there is very little room for a dictatorship. 😉

*

As for mega”churches” – they remind me of Walmart. Huge and generally impersonal and awfully inconvenient if you’re looking for something and can’t find it. And aimed at conformity as well, along with being a franchise big-box-type business.

Quality doesn’t necessarily correlate with size or quantity.

“E-x-t-r-i–c-a-t-i-o-n” 

HowDee YaAll,

1, 2, 3
Turn it up

What?

Markey_D hav’in a hard time of it?

hmmm…

MD: ‘Big blogs keep on churning…forced me home fo I hitz da waste-bin…sing’in songs about my mess-up…

MD, Think you’ve sin(ed)?

“…Petry’s paper trail is very courageous, brave, and smart.”

(wink)

…and pin-point effective.

MD out’a TP?

(grin)

hahhahahahahaha

Sopy ;~)
___
Comic relief: “Juz another day at de office…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76o3jUUtpXI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

“E-x-t-r-i–c-a-t-i-o-n” : free with difficulty: to release with difficulty from a BIG fopa, or an unpleasant or complicated situation. Synonyms: get da heck out, extract, remove, disentangle, detach, disengage, eject, disconnect, free, rescue one’s self, run n’ hide, duck n’ cover…

BTW: Can anyone find the video of Piper saying he LOVES Mark Driscoll’s theology? I saw that someone was looking for it and said it was deleted off the internet.

Deb : “…each of us is playing a part in revealing the truth.”

thanx 🙂

…a blog for a stage?

hmmm…

to blog, or not to blog?

huh? (what kinda silly question is dat?)

Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this recent turn of events
And all the flack clouds that lour’d upon Wartburg made of none effect though they bee high n’wide

Thanks Jesus!

Sopy 
___
MD: “Lego of ma house…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjoqMrFXx-k&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Dee –

I wonder what else will disappear from the internet in the days to come . . .

These guys are absolute cowards. They take information down that is controversial, that they are ashamed of, yet they make no statements, retractions, or apologies. What an awful example to those following them and to the world at large.

WTH –

Well that is interesting. The less that can be said the better . . . from MH’s perspective.

Actz29 Improvement: “Tool Time?”

HowDee Ya All,

Bridget : “From what I can tell, both CJ and MD are simply retreating behind the lines (or hiding behind their front men’s skirts) and retooling “their” ministries.”

retreat N’ retool’in, huh?

shishhhhhh! (your gonna blow dar cover!?!)

Harry hailstone, don’t worry…Mark, it’s juz a little rain…

…and a lit’l wind!

nahhh… dat tornado’s nuff’in… 🙂

(grin)

Hey, Why O’ why would anyone listen to a shop teacher miss’in fingers?

retool?

hahahahahahaha

Sopy ;~)

Do we really need more churches in America? Honestly? Here in the “Bible Belt” there is one on almost every corner. There are over 40 churches in the small town I live in (population 10,200). 40 churches! Could we not get together and discuss amount ourselves how we can combine forces and work together to reach the lost? No, because there are several problems with that:

1. I don’t get to be in charge.
2. I won’t always get my way.
3. I won’t be the “celebrity” pastor.
4. I will have to play nice with others.

And so it goes. Meantime, the world looks at us and says, “You can’t get along with yourselves; why should I be a part of that?” Good question.

Oh, did I mention that a few couples have started another church in my town? Just what we needed…

Eagle,

Short answer. Yes. As bad as Driscoll (notice not all so called Calvinistas have went down his path…thinking of David Platt and others here) is…he is no Nazi. When he is responsible for murdering millions…come talk to me..

If this was meant to be a joke, I get it, but that was not really funny…throwing out Nazi and Communist comments, although Driscoll may have similarities with Nazis in his attitude towards disagreements, carries a lot of weight. Driscoll hasn’t installed a concentration camp on the back of Mars Hills yet as far as I know, and he certainly hasn’t thrown the two Elders he fired in a gas chamber…

And not all Calvinistas act like Driscoll.

“And not all Calvinistas act like Driscoll”

Amend that to “New Calvinist” and you have a problem. I live at YRR ground zero and I can tell you most of the young YRR are exactly like Driscoll. Go walk the SBTS campus and see. And we are unleashing them out to unsuspecting churches.

In fact, ask yourself how many young men ACts 29 has trained over the years in “Driscoll style”? We could be seeing another 30-40 years of this authoritarianism and elder rule in churches because we are talking about 20somethings. His reach has been quite far and people are trying to pretend it never happened. Even Piper scrubbing his vid of saying he “LOOOVVES” Mark Driscoll theology….his version of a “masculine Christianity” strategy.

“Short answer. Yes. As bad as Driscoll (notice not all so called Calvinistas have went down his path…thinking of David Platt and others here) is…he is no Nazi. When he is responsible for murdering millions…come talk to me..”

Hmm. Is it better to kill the body or kill the soul?

Seeker,

First of all, I have to say that I stand with those who have been spiritually abused by these wolves and hirlings. That is most important. Therefore, I cannot make excuses for those who spiritually abuse and those who support and affirm those that do such things. Piper, Chandler, Mohler, etc do not get a pass for affirming Driscoll or Mahaney. They should know better. They are PAID to be Christians. Think about it.

We must support those who have been spiritually abused and stop making excuses for those who abuse and those who support and affirm them. For example: The porno divination video has been around for a while now. Not a word from Chandler, Piper, etc. And it is vile heresy. False teaching that is cultic and satanic. Not a word…from any of them except for affirmations of Driscoll.

We either take ALL of it seriously or we don’t.

I also cannot turn a blind eye to what is taught. I totally disagree with you that Driscoll preaches the Gospel. All false teachers mix truth with their heresy. If anyone who has believed Driscoll’s teaching becomes saved, it will be in spite of him. In fact, it could take years to reverse the damage done in what they believe about Jesus Christ. IN spite of his blaspheming our Savior and his porno visions.

Driscoll preaches a false Jesus who gives him total power over people. A Jesus who makes him a “Nicolaitan”. Who wants to break your nose and is a redneck. Who says that you are easily deceived if you are a woman. Driscoll has wrapped up his beliefs in secondary issues into a salvic doctrine.

I stand with those who have been abused by the system he built for himself. And I know for a fact many young men are attracted to Acts 29 because they like Driscoll’s style. They go to his bootcamp to learn to become like him. And they are out there planting churches in their 20’s. I know several people who have left Acts 29 churches because of the lording it over issue. They learned from the master. And Chandler has been affirming it for years.

At the risk of making a seemingly snarky reply, Patti, the cognitive bias known as the halo effect works in both directions. It can lead a person to assume a broadly good impression or a broadly bad impression based on just a few immediately observable traits.

Anon1,

I want to be clear here as well..I also stand with those who have been spiritually abused, it is my hope that you inderstand that, and I never want to make excuses for Chandler or anyone who affirms Driscolls behavior. It is my hope that Chandler and others have countered Driscoll many times, as they seem to be friends, although you or I may not see it publicly.

I had mixed feelings at first about the public scathing Chandler and others should give Driscoll, but the more I research the Elder incident and the documents on the joyful exiles website, the more I research how public the firings got, the more I am convinced Chandler, representing a29, should say something. I never thought he should not confront Driscoll, I just had mixed feelings on how public that confrontation should be.

I have thoughts on how this should play out, but I am not sharing that at the moment.

The reason why I came out of the shadows to speak up for Chandler is because I don’t see him as the same man or in the same mindset as Driscoll. These are my feelings from afar based on my years of listening to Chandler on the Village podcast,, and in all these discussions two people from his church spoke up, and they were positive. These people know him far better than i do, far better than most of the sceptics on this blog…Only one shared a genuine concern that he could begin to walk down Driscolls path. Time will tell all this.

Many on this blog have made their minds up about Chandler already…Many on here lump him in the same category and have written him off based on guilt by association and his lack of public scathing of Driscoll. This may be a legitimate way to deny Chandlers good, but I and many others who have never heard of this blog see a man who legitimately loves Jesus, see man who genuinely cares for the Church, see a man who is urgent about sharing the good news of Jesus Christ…

It is not my goal to change your mind about Chandler or keep you from questioning his motives…it’s my goal to give a different perspective and take to all of this. This is why I asked many questions relating to all of this. My hope is we would pause before we call something unclean that God may call clean.

Let me be clear about Driscoll as well. I am not as learned as many of you are about his actions. I stopped listening to him because of his style and irreverent behavior in his preaching many years ago. I have not seen any “porno vision” vid as you keep describing…unless it was the piper/Driscoll vid where Driscoll says he sees God told him a man abused his wife…was there a more complete video I haven’t seen….yeah, that was creepy and weird clip regardless though…I hardly know anything about this recent sex book, and his recent speaking engagements…

His actions agains the Elder I have just learned about in the last month, and this was just awful.

I said I believe he has shared the Gospel of Jesus Christ because I have heard him preach on the atoning work of Christ and the resurrection (inhow edgy and irreverent style nonetheless)….and I agree, God has probably used this in spite of his actions and his other crazy teaching..

All in all, I am learning more every day about this man…the more I learn the more I don’t like….I don’t think Chadler is one and the same, and I don’t think Chandler will follow his same destructive path…I am willing to admit that I am wrong, and I recant my misgivings on Chandler speaking publicly against Driscoll since I have learned more about Driscolls actions against the Elders in full and it’s public reveal..

My hope is that Chandler, Piper and others have already, on many occasions, confronted him in private about some of this..and if I remember correctly, Piper has confronted Driscoll publicly in the past about his vulgar style from the Pulpit…but I do agree, now is the time to speak up…

If Chandler does not, then he is most likely in a sin of inaction…I will lose some respect for Chandler in this situation, but I by no means consider him a wolf, false prophet, or Nazi. I will share later, in full, how I think Chandler should handle this from now as leader of A29…

Driscoll may be a wolf, and his controlling Charisma reminds me of many leaders including hitler, but he is still a far cry from a Nazi. Y again, I think that is a stretch of a comparison…

Did you step in somthin, Mark?

Mark Driscoll, “What is your greatest fear for Mars Hill Church?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of6OhomrezA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

hmmm…

Sopy 

“Driscoll may be a wolf, and his controlling Charisma reminds me of many leaders including hitler, but he is still a far cry from a Nazi”

How about Lenin who had one of his leaders, Trotsky, exiled? :o)

Matt Chandler’s Take On Church Membership: What’s Da  Bottom Line? 

Utilizing a popular pastoral scripture: (Hebrews 13:17) “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.”

Matt Chandler sayz:

Ground 0. That God’s plan for His church is that we would belong to a local covenant community of faith. This is for our own protection and maturation, and for the good of others.

1. That a biblical understanding of the local church (begins) around the ideas of authority and submission, and church discipline.

2. That “pastoral accountability to God”, is a serious matter, that he takes seriously.

3. (implied) The leaders “an individual Christian obey and submit to” should be clearly defined.

4. (summary) That “a local church membership is a question of biblical obedience, not personal preference.”

(Church Membership Unpacked )”If you view church as some sort of ecclesiological buffet, then you severely limit the likelihood of your growing into maturity. Growth into godliness can hurt. For instance, as I interact with others in my own local body, my own slothfulness in zeal is exposed, as is my lack of patience, my prayerlessness, and my hesitancy to associate with the lowly (Rom. 12:11-16). Yet this interaction also gives me the opportunity to be lovingly confronted by brothers and sisters who are in the trenches with me, as well as a safe place to confess and repent.  But when church is just a place you attend without ever joining, like an ecclesiological buffet, you just might consider whether you’re always leaving whenever your heart begins to be exposed by the Spirit, and the real work is beginning to happen.” -Matt Chandler

Reference(s):
http://theresurgence.com/2011/07/06/is-church-membership-biblical
http://www.9marks.org/journal/church-membership-biblical

                                                          ㋡

“What is your greatest fear for Mars Hill Church?”

That I would get disciplined by my elders and have to get a real job. So I had my older elders fired, which scared the _______, out of the other guys so much that they all voted to give up all of their legal authority as elders and adopted new bylaws that gave me a lifetime tenure and hiring and firing authority. Second, of course, is that tithing and giving would drop, so we started to take up collections on Sundays, and accepting credit cards and online giving with pledges, instead of leaving it up to folks who felt led to put something into the basket during communion. A little pressure helps the bottom line, you know.

Dee-

I am just asking you to be a good journalist, which you profess to have experience in. I am asking your readers to be good researchers. You presume you know me, which speaks to a high view of your self.

HowDee YaAll,

Joe, 

Hey,

   Tyranny is a cruel taskmaster, friend. The Actz29 tyrannical history is replete with glaring examples. Wherez you been? Those who manage to escape it, demonstrate deep scars. Many never have recovered. Many more never get free. Which one are you? 

“Ceux qui démontrent une ténacité pour la sottise, apparent jamais vraiment bénéfice des expériences de d’autres.” -Monsieur Sopy

Did you drop your silver?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_I87e7wslk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

You have our prayers, fella, you sure do seem likez ya needz um, ah huh.

Sopy
___
James Fenmore Cooper’s – “The Last of The Mohicans”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k6pn-XT7JA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

“It always amuses me when people profess to know so much about a church or pastor that they have never experienced except thru the lens of the internet.”

Joe, at the risk of pointing out the obvious, didn’t you say you never attended and weren’t a member of MH? Wouldn’t this then mean what you know you’ve learned from the lens of the internet?

Hi Joe.

I live far from Seattle and will likely never be able to attend church at any Mars Hill campus. But Mark Driscoll would like me to buy his books, download his sermons, and donate to Mars Hill online. He would like me to model my life and my marriage on his principles. Am I allowed, then, to judge the value of his teaching by the copious amounts of material available to me though these formats? Or must I defer to those who can watch a video broadcast at one of the satellite campuses? Or must I attend the Ballard campus, so that I can see Mark preach live? Or must I somehow get into his inner circle, so that I get to know the real man behind the persona?

Also, should I ignore the accounts of those people who really have had a real-life Mars Hill experience and were treated horribly by it? And should I also dismiss the fact that these accounts share an uncanny pattern? And that more and more of them are cropping up all the time?

How much information I am required to ignore?

One more question, Joe. You are asking us to be good journalists. This is fair. So, what do you do with all of the articles by “real journalists” from the New York Times, Seattle Times, The Stranger, and elsewhere that are deeply critical of Mars Hill Church and Mark Driscoll?

Joe,

“He who saves one life saves the world entire…”

(sadface)

Sopy
___
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIp_8RNNX4k&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Something almost hypnotic happens when you are in an arena with that many people. The bright lights (often strobing) and blaring music almost puts people in a trance. Something psychological happens, and it makes the attendee more accepting of the message. I don’t know all the psychological terms, but I know from experience that this happens. — Deb

I’m going to get piled on for invoking Godwin’s Law, but that is exactly the same dynamic behind a Nuremberg Rally. (Which some eyewitnesses cited in a 1943 OSS intelligence report DID compare to a revival meeting.)

Remember the opening and ending scenes in Charlie Chaplain’s The Great Dictator? Everything — the staging, the paegeantry, the music, the pomp, the ritual — all to focus you on the guy on the platform to get swept up in his speech and believe everything he says. (Which is where the impact in TGD‘s closing scene comes from.)

“…One who saves just ONE spiritually abused soul, it is as if they saved an entire world…”

Joe,

… Isn’t this like the story of someone who saved the woman, Christ’s Bride, from  a type of poverty, abuse, and spiritual  starvation, and when she got sick and was going to die, the ‘angels’ came to her defense with this claim that one who saves just ONE spiritually abused soul, it is as if they saved an entire world…

A demonstration of compassion for the aggrieved of Act29 would be a nice jesture, at this juncture…

Prayerfully, 

Sopy
___
“Angels We Have Heard on High”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T42ieABEY-A&feature=youtube_gdata_player

WTH-

I’m in Seattle and have been to Mars Hill occasionally. I’m a connector as Gladwell says, so I have plenty of people I know who are at or have been at Mars Hill in various capacities from current to former pastors to Community or Redemption leaders, people serving throughout the church. I also know people in leadership or attending many of the churches in Seattle. I’m involved in a non MH or a29 church, yet being from Seattle I know the lay of the land, so it’s much more than just the internet than informs me, it’s people.

“Try to find out both sides of the story and when possible do your own homework on site with real people.”

Thanx for de advice!

Been there done that.

betta punt fella!  Clock is tick’in…

Pray harder…we do!

Sopy

So, Joe, in answer to this “I’m in Seattle and have been to Mars Hill occasionally. I’m a connector as Gladwell says, so I have plenty of people I know who are at or have been at Mars Hill in various capacities from current to former pastors to Community or Redemption leaders, people serving throughout the church. I also know people in leadership or attending many of the churches in Seattle. I’m involved in a non MH or a29 church, yet being from Seattle I know the lay of the land, so it’s much more than just the internet than informs me, it’s people.”

Provide the other side. Yes, I can see some sarcasm and some anger, but I believe someone has to be forceful about the abuse that is being chronicled. If you know so much, tell us. Are Paul and Jonna Petry lying? If so, what is the truth? Were they just trouble makers who were fired for good reason? What reason?

Well, Joe, let me explain why a site like this is helpful. I know someone who goes to a church that lost their dear pastor who had been with them for a couple of decades. They hired a new pastor and were excited to have him join their congregation of 200 or so. The first year was fine.

Then the pastor had everyone study Dricoll’s “Doctrine”.

Then he had select groups study Dever’s “9 Marks of a Healthy Church”

My friend’s wife, who had run the missions ministry at the church was told that it was really a position for a man and was replaced. Then my friend’s wife was told that she was only a step away from church discipline. Slowly they found out that quite a few of the long time members were under discipline.

These people have no idea of what is happening at their church or why. A site like this surely helps people understand.

So you want to defend Driscoll. Fine. But someone needs to help those who are getting blindsided by this kind of takeover in their churches. They cannot respond properly because they can’t identify what is happening and do not know where it can lead.

Dee

Yeah, after I commented it occurred to me that Joe might just rejoice to hear the news of an entire church getting corrected in the Calvinista way. Who cares about the collateral damage? They probably weren’t real Christians anyway.

Sigh. I watched quite a few young people get wiped out financially and personally by an Acts 29 plant. They just mowed through the people and threw away the ones that couldn’t service the pastor in the manner in which he strove to be serviced. It wasn’t pretty.

Joe – about Sopy – he knows what he’s talking about and is pretty well-respected at other blogs that focus on spiritual abuse.

His posts in this thread have been – in my opinion – very much on point.

Joe, Joe, Joe (sigh) –

Seriously, hasn’t MD, like CJ Mahaney, had enough support from the Reformed Big Dogs?

Meanwhile, who allows the victims to be heard? Does Driscoll? Does Mahaney? No.

And Jesus, what would he do — pat MD on the head and say there, there?

MD has turned MH into HIS ministry by way of the new by-laws and polity. He is responsible by his own choice. He does not want help from anyone. What he asked for is coming to fruition. What he and CJM did secretly is now being revealed publicly. If it was all done righteously, then what exactly is the problem you have with this discussion? Let MD be the big manly guy he claims to be and explain his position . . . waiting (sigh).

Deb asked:

“I am interested in your recommendations in dealing with a troll like Joe. It appears that he has no interest in carrying on an honest dialogue. How do we deal with that?”

You have two choices. Ban him (his IP number specifically) or put up with him in Christian love. There’s too large of an audience here to make everyone aware of who the trolls are. If the regular readers become snarky with the trolls, you run the risk of alienating new readers not in the know.

And, if handled properly, trolls can serve a very useful purpose. They allow you to make the same points over and over again which is useful in educating your audience. And if everyone here continues to hammer the truth over and over again while the trolls avoid answering questions… it becomes apparent to most people what is going on.

And you will earn many jewels in your crown. 🙂

Sopy – I am *very* intrigued by the quotes you posted, and am wondering if you could post a link to the source for the 1st one? (That says “we in the therapeutic community…”)

Links to the others would be great, too, but that’s a lot of links!

Thanks in advance for your help!

numo

I am still trying to figure out why Dee or Deb have to go to Mars Hill to see “another side” concerning Driscoll. Does this mean his videos/sermons/books are not his own words?

Let’s forget Mark’s own words all over the internet and in books for a moment. Let’s look at the logic of such a statement. It would mean I would need to go to the White House and see Obama before I could offer up any criticisms of his words or actions that are public.

In fact, If Dee or Deb did go to Mars Hill they would be just more spectators in the audience, far from stage…. and Mark has body guards.

numo said:

“Sallie – I must say that it can be *very* hard to respond with patience and forbearance toward people who are here to troll.

I have tried it myself, and gotten burned more than a few times, so now, I just don’t “talk” to those people.

It’s stressful, and I believe I might be speaking for others in saying that.”

I agree that trolls are stressful. I’ve dealt with them on my own blog over the years and had to decide what to do with them.

Trolls are either looking for attention or are trying to disrupt what is going on.

Again, my concern is that becoming snarky with them really works against what Dee and Deb are trying to accomplish here. The message they are trying to get out is SO IMPORTANT that I hate to see it undermined by snarkiness.

For the record, I banned some people after ample public warning. When it became clear they weren’t there to participate in a meaningful way, I had no qualms in banning them.

Sallie,

In response to this “You have two choices. Ban him (his IP number specifically) or put up with him in Christian love. There’s too large of an audience here to make everyone aware of who the trolls are. If the regular readers become snarky with the trolls, you run the risk of alienating new readers not in the know.

And, if handled properly, trolls can serve a very useful purpose. They allow you to make the same points over and over again which is useful in educating your audience. And if everyone here continues to hammer the truth over and over again while the trolls avoid answering questions… it becomes apparent to most people what is going on.”

I say that you should let them stay, and remind the regular posters to not become snarky. I was a regular poster, for many years at a Christian forum and it degenerated into 3 or 4 regular posters getting more than snarky, almost stalkish, with a couple trolls. But then they started being that way with anyone who crossed them, even new posters who they thought were sockpuppets of former trolls. It was weird. At one time, there were 4-500 daily participants, and it is now about 10-15. I quit that forum. I got tired of trying to scroll through all the bombastic, angry attacks. The Wartburg watch has some sarcasm and some anger, but it has a purpose and it should include the allowance for dissent, even Joe.

Wow!! This blog makes Mark Driscoll out to be a dreadful person. Is he really? I’m sure there’s another side to this story.

But before you assume I’m a troll, allow me to agree with some of the assessment here.

While I don’t believe Mark Driscoll to be a dreadful person, he displays narcissistic tendencies in his intent on making himself king over his domain. It’s more disheartening in that his domain is a Christian church organization. What makes him not dreadful, however, is the fact that he believes in Jesus and is redeemable (not for that reason alone).

His ascendance to that throne, however, is revealing of what is systemic with the American church in general. We are not a persecuted church, so we don’t have that to deal with. We are a church of personality, and that is what is leading the mega-church movement. Mark Driscoll is every much a victim of that mentality as anything else. I’m not trying to minimize his sins; but we have set it up such that charismatic personalities arise; and those who are tempted by those kinds of prospects, do not have an outlet to really deal with those aspirations because we encourage them. Our leadership structure creates pastors who are not themselves pastored. That is sad. The very unique personality of say a Billy Graham is not at the heart of most people who have designs on Christian influence and power. Graham has his own sins, to be sure of; but he exudes humility. That’s a very difficult characteristic to maintain without being at one point, pretty certain of the mission at hand and at another, being completely dependent on God for His lead in the mission. It’s that dependence on God’s leadership, rather than newfangled ministry strategies and techniques, which make the true humble man of God. We don’t encourage that any more. We want our pastors to be some sort of Ubermensch. Most of us would be shocked to discover that the man who first envisioned the Ubermensch was one of the most radical atheists in history. Do we really want to bring about such a vision in our leaders?

Driscoll has become corrupted by that ever so enticing promise of power and influence, and as we all know “power corrupts; absolute power corrupts…………” but our lackadaisical theologizing on the necessity of Christian purity has only succeeded in producing outward forms of purity to substitute for the inward forms. We want bold leaders who aren’t afraid to take a stand for what is right; and with that focus, we set them up for the power play. There is another, better way.

Here’s my own take on the whole issue of church planting, the church growth movement, etc…

There have been many manifestations of organizations that are dedicated to planting churches; many more successful than others in actually increasing numbers of attendance, and not simply shifting and dividing large member congregations out to smaller locations.

But on the other hand, the idea that you take one large mega-church and dissect it into smaller satellite churches, is actually a good idea. It allows members to have more personal relationships with fellow members. It’s my belief that as churches grow, moving to satellite churches is a natural outgrowth, not something that we plan well in advance by selecting a huge population niche to reach out to. When we become that selective, we neglect the very real needs of the communities to which we represent Christianity. Population niches actually create a very elitist focus for a Church that is supposed to be a shining light to everyone in a community, not a select few.

What I see as being the main problem with Mars Hill is that the majority of people who attend there seemed to do so because of the personality of the pastor, rather than out of a desire to be involved in something that goes beyond personality; the spreading of the gospel and discipleship of believers. So you are correct in pointing out this cult of personality. Its focus seemed to be in finding a niche to attract a certain unchurched group; and while that is admirable, Driscoll went off the deep end as to what would attract them.

I’ve been around the block somewhat with church growth movements, having been a Christian since I was in my teens – and over 30 years. Driscoll’s apparent justification for his approach is not only not biblical, but not rational. You don’t lower Christian moral proclivities to attract those with little or no moral proclivities; rather, you maintain an insistence on the purity of the gospel, which attracts those who have ears to hear. That may include those living very openly sinful lives, as well as those who live openly upright lives, but are self-justifiers of their conduct.

There’s no need for a niche if you’re preaching the Word. People are convicted by the truth when they can no longer justify their actions in contrast to right thinking. We worship a God of truth; a God of rationality, who created a universe that can be understood rationally. Thus, we are convicted when our way of living in the world that God created, does not jibe with that world. We suffer the consequences of sin precisely because God designed the world in such a way as our behavior interacts with that world for better or for worse. We are designed to be social beings; loving each other and God. When we don’t, there are consequences designed into the world to counteract the offense. And God also acts directly to counteract the offense. When people realize that they have sinned and their lives are not really working for them due to the consequences, they become attracted to the church. That seems to be the way it works in my experience. Mega-churches don’t have a monopoly on attracting sinners to the gospel. They simply have a monopoly on filling pews with believers (many of whom were already believers before they joined) and non-believers (many of whom will never believe, despite the sincere efforts of the church). You can get many people to an altar, but that isn’t forcing them to believe.

If you look at statistics, it becomes clear that despite the presence and growth of mega-churches in America over the last several decades, we haven’t become a more believing country, but a less believing country; and that has occurred at a greater rate over the last 20 years than at any other time in our history. The church is shrinking, not growing. Driscoll criticizes the church in England, but it’s actually making some very good strides. And they have better ideas on how to grow churches; mind you.

So yeah, I would call on Driscoll to step down, or at least to take some time off and really seek God as to how he can serve him. I would recommend that he actually go on some short term missions trips or something like that so he can get a sense of the true needs people have. He’s been preaching to the choir for so long that he’s out of touch with the way the world truly is. But that’s not likely to happen. He measures his success by numbers, rather than by growing closer to God.

The best pastors I have met in my lifetime displayed the clear signs that God was working in their lives personally, and they became more and more lovers of God; not at all offended by loving Jesus even if that made them look like a wuss or a sissy. They weren’t, of course. They showed true courage in proclaiming a gospel message that became more and more scorned as our communities became more and more secularized. These are the men and women that have led me to greater faith, along with those who have dedicated their lives to reaching unreached people on the mission field abroad. I’ve never been persuaded by the “super-preachers” of Driscoll’s ilk.

But there are some mega-churches that are doing great things. I attended an EV Free church for a number of years that had over 3,000 members, and it wasn’t at all personality focused. In fact, the senior pastor was not even an elder. He just preached and ministered, encouraging the congregation towards Christian service. All other decisions were made by the elder board, and by vote of the congregation. But this church, even though it spawned several others, did not have church growth as its focus. It’s focus was ministry in the congregation, the community and abroad, seeking to make us and others Christ-followers. And it continues to grow to this day.

So my “criticism” is more agreement than criticism. I just wouldn’t count any person out who believes in Jesus, as far as their promise in maturing as believers. Heck, I even believe that Benny Hinn could come to his senses one day. I pray for such things.

HowDee YaAll,

For those of you who have suffered under the hand of Acts29′ s Church (Christian) leadership run amok, in silence, unable to make your case, or understand how it happened?

You are not crazy. 

You are most certainly not alone. 

Now the rest of the world knows…or do they?

Get this: Acts 29 Pastor Mark Driscoll sells anal sex in the Christian bedroom in his latest tome, and it becomes a New York Times best seller?  Mssr. Thomas Nelson, the famed Bible publisher, publishes this best selling tome and everyone is o.k. with it? hmmm…

What is wrong with this picture?

Then Acts 29 Pastor Mark Driscoll goes on the Christian college circuit to promote this type of atrocity against Christian women’s anatomy in the english speaking world?
And again, it’s ok?
 
Again, what is wrong with this picture?

Then Liberty University, a “Christian University” schedules Acts29 Mark Driscoll to speak at their famed university?  After all it is all right isn’t it?

Again, what is wrong with this picture?

hmmm…

(Twenty-four grand buys your little Jane or your little Jonny what type of education there at LU?)

Jerry must be rolling in his grave…for shame, the guy expired at his post for nothing? hmmm…could b

(Sadface)

Sopy

Brandon,

I liked your comment very much – so much truth and so well spoken.

The pastor from my small childhood church, with whom I still keep in contact with, calls what you described as “Solomon Syndrome.” Give the mega-church pastors enough power and they become besotted with it. And it eventually becomes their downfall.

Faith, I agree with you. I came across the link to a blog last night from Alan Knox’s blog, theassemblingofhebody, and have been reading it. What a breath of fresh air to read truth about what is truly how the Body is to operate according to scripture. Enjoy this brother’s writings. He gets a lot right and he is a former institutional church pastor:

http://jamaljivanjee.com/category/church-leadership/

And yes, I agree that all of us have “added to the faith” in various ways.

But are all of the “additions” bad, I wonder?

“If you “purify” the church (in the way that many radical followers of the Reformation did, by destroying stained-glass windows and art and by whitewashing the interiors of existing churches) you are obliterating a good deal of historic Christianity and the faith of those with whom you disagree – on secondary issues at that”

Numo,

the “radical reformers”, as they were called, in Europe did not have the kind of power. They were too busy running from the magistrates and hiding in caves. With the exception of the Munster group which I presume you are referring to, they were peaceloving people and simply disagreed with the sacraments as a means of grace and were persecuted for refusing to baptize their infants. There were hunted by the reformers and “rebaptized” with a 3rd baptism of drowning. The radical reformers were not monolithic but for the most part peaceloving and against a “state church” which required sacraments.

Most history is written by the victors so we must be careful. One great book that was able to research previously closed archives after WW2 is Leonard Verduin’s Stepchildren of the Reformation.

Today we think little of baptizing infants. But the REformers demanded it and church attendance, too.

I found a great discussion with John Zens on this very topic not too long ago:

http://jamaljivanjee.com/2011/06/whos-trying-to-kill-you-history-of-the-anabaptists-why-it-matters-to-you-important-msg-from-jon-zens/

Anon1 – You might want to see what happened during the English Civil War; also while Oliver Cromwell was head of state.

And yes, there *was* what one could call iconoclasm in places like Geneva, though I suspect that in all cases the people who did destructive things were also looting churches for gold and precious stones, among other things.

(P.S.: I am an art historian by training, and since Western art has a great deal to do with Christianity, one has to learn a lot about the history of religion and religious conflicts as well… all that to say that while I definitely need a brush-up on a lot of it – it’s been a few years since I was in school 😉 – it’s also part of my stock in trade, so to speak. :))

Anon1 – re. the Anabaptists, yes, what you’re saying is true. I grew up in an area that’s full of different anabaptist denoms and churches (primarily Mennonite and Church of the Brethren, though there are plenty of Amish people as well).

In fact, Mennonite and C. of the B. theology has been a very real influence in my own life and faith.

Hey René – actually, I started out in studio art; then did art history in grad school. Truthfully, that was a real slog, because the curriculum was kept separate from the studio stuff and so ended up being *very* dry and lifeless. (imo, at least – if I ever taught, I’d do it differently, but I’d have to do it on my own.)

So – very cool to know that you have that background, though (I’m guessing) you might not have much time to work these days – ? (I’ve drifted myself – into music – which is really my 1st love as far as the arts go, though I love them all.)

Thanks so much for your kind words, though the learning goes both ways. I’ve really enjoyed your comments to date and hope you continue to post here!

ooooh, art talk!

(numo, renee, whoever else)

my mom just dropped off a box full of things from my chidlhood (they’re cleaning out their garage). Amongst tons of things I remember and have no memory of (like old journals from jr. high and highschool — terrifying to read! had to throw them away in a flurry — it was definitely my handwriting, but like some alter ego from past life — weird– and way too painful)…

…AMONGST things like these were some water colors and sketches from when I was 12 and 15, taking art classes in school. I was astonished at what I had been able to do with a little instruction. They were pretty good!

I’m a very creative person who got sidetracked with the left brain corporate world and then having kids (wonderful, but all consuming), to the point that I’ve suspected my creativity has atrophied and is gone.

But then i saw what I had done in the art classes — which was in a different league from anything else i had ever done — i was amazed at what a good instructor could bring out of someone.

So I’m very excited at the thought of taking art classes at this point in time — to perhaps revive if not shoot for wholesale resurrection of creativity.

Art is so pleasurable, the doing and the experiencing of it.

elastigirl – go for it!

I haven’t made anything (paintings, drawings) in a long time and need a re-education, I think.

Besides – painting because it’s enjoyable is entirely different than making things for assignments that will be graded and publicly critiqued.

elastigirl, numo:

“the wholesale resurrection of creativity”.

Those are good words.

Jesus is risen. He will redeem all things. I hope you do find a way to make art again, soon.

True Words,

“Solomon syndrome.” Have to remember that; and yes I get it. It’s too bad that a lot of those “suffering” from it fail to heed some of the wisdom of Solomon: “Chasing after wind, etc…” The simple truth is that God is greater than whatever “visions” we may think we have. If we’re not completely dependent on him, we’re doomed to fail. This is why I believe that “small is good.” Simple faith is preferable to “super-faith.” Francis Schaeffer’s book “The New Super Spirituality” comes to mind.

Faith,

While I appreciate your perspective, I’d have to disagree that we in America are for the most part being persecuted; although there are often incidents of Christian persecution here in America. There’s a lot of abuse in the leadership and teachings in churches, to be sure. Nothing is terribly different now than it has been throughout Christian history. A great book that I recommend; it’s a rather old book, but very in-depth, is Herold OJ Brown’s “Heresies: Heresy and Orthodoxy in the History of the Church,” where he traces the predominant heretical movements in the early church. What’s quite stunning about this work is Brown’s recognition of belief systems, which continue to be manifested in modern churches; while he doesn’t necessarily go in depth in making that connection. But while reading that book several years ago, it struck me how there is truly nothing new under the sun. What is now proclaimed as a new method or a new perspective, has already been sometime in the 2,000 year history of Christianity. Evil finds a way of manifesting even in the Church, and in most cases, it’s a repeat of an ancient manifestation; but we don’t recognize it, because we don’t know history, and when we don’t know history, as the saying goes, “history repeats itself.”

But I view church persecution as very specific and clear in the history of the church, and it comes from those outside the church, much more than from inside. We are not facing those conditions in the American church today; at least not in epidemic proportions. We are facing heresies, to be sure; which will eventually (and indeed has) cause(d) a reaction towards traditional Christianity among non-believers, leading to more and more persecution; but I don’t think we’re completely “there” yet. We still have the freedom to worship as we see fit. We are not told by government that we cannot be Christians; although the trend seems to be leading us in that direction.

There are churches in other parts of the world that are definitely being persecuted, and when we have that perspective, the contrast with America is quite revealing; particularly in North Africa, China, Cuba, Indonesia and many many other countries around the world; where if you are openly Christian, you can and will be tortured or killed. We’re not there yet. And if we are in abusive churches, we do have the freedom to leave and go somewhere else. So I can’t exactly agree that we are persecuted. At least I wouldn’t use that term to describe the many real issues that you pointed out.

But persecution, while not something to be welcomed, is something that tends to purify the church, by separating the true believers from those who are only Christians by name; and, in fact, it was just such persecution in the early church, which led not to the annihilation of Christianity around the world, but to it’s spread. If we are serious about our faith, no amount of persecution is going to make us believe otherwise; but those who aren’t fully committed will fall by the wayside and contribute to the persecution. That is clearly not happening right now in most Western democratic countries that allow freedom of speech and freedom of religion, but the trends are definitely there.

Sallie,

Thanks for the link. I’ve been on many online forums over many years. Trolls are common, but sometimes people who “troll” certain forums really do feel that they have an alternative perspective they need to share, and are not simply trying to destroy thoughtful discussion.

I’ve been on an intelligent design forum Uncommondescent.com (started by William Dembski) for many years, and as you can imagine, there are many trolls. But there are also many thoughtful people who have an alternative perspective than that of the blog. Sometimes they have even been permitted to post their own threads for some quite interesting discussion. But ultimately, people who disagree and who will not admit that their arguments have been either defeated or at least adequately addressed; but who continue to press their already refuted points and agenda through careful researched and cited reference, have to be dealt with. The best thing to do in the long run after much tolerance and correction, is to ban them, ultimately. There’s no sense in going over and over points that have already been adequately addressed and allow a discussion to get distracted or even sidetracked by trivialities. People who hijack threads should be told what they are doing, and if they continue, they are no longer welcome. Simple as that. It’s also a good idea to have a FAQ of issues that have already been adequately addressed, so that you can simply cite the FAQ rather than going over already covered territory. That’s what UD does.

But I find that one person’s “troll” is another persons “alternate perspective.” There is a fine line. That’s my perspective, which comes from much experience, believe me.

Deb,

OK, I see what you mean by cross-cultural. Perhaps I misread what you stated. I think I assumed you were attributing a cross-cultural perspective with Mark Driscoll, while I find just the opposite. His approach is hegemony – “might makes right,” which is definitely anti-Christian if you have any sort of Christian perspective at all.

I’ve been heavily into the current GOP presidential primaries in online forums, and a common theme that I’ve noticed among very conservative republicans is a disdain for what is termed “multi-culturalism.” Many, if not most of these people identify themselves as Christians, and I understand the disdain. The multi-culturalist stance tends to be a non-judgmental, morally relative acceptance of cultural traditions that in our traditional Christian view are, to put it bluntly, evil. The radical leftist ideal is that non-judgmental tolerance towards those of different cultural manifestations of immorality is to be accepted and praised. It’s the Oprah Winfrey “new age” mentality of “your truth is as equally valid as his or her or my truth;” which ultimately leads to a watered down sort of acceptance of whatever assertion contains a certain “truthiness.” Many of these conservatives have rightfully pointed out the hypocrisy of for example, the radical feminists tolerating Saudi Arabian anti-woman culture, simply because we don’t judge other cultures.

But (and this is a big but), multi-culturalism should not be confused with a cross-cultural perspective. Those who are involved in world missions could perhaps understand this best. The political right has a tendency to dismiss even cross-cultural perspectives as it pertains to reaching the lost for the gospel, and yet they still identify as Christians. But we must be careful to distinguish the difference.

America is a great nation particularly because of what is termed “American exceptionalism.” That doesn’t mean that Americans are any greater or more “exceptional” than people of other nations; even though some view it that way. What it means is that America is the only democratic republic in the world, which establishes human rights, not as an endowment from the state (as in “might makes right”), but as self-evidently “endowed by our Creator.” In other words, the American democratic system is designed specifically to allow God to be above government; to allow God to be sovereign in our lives. Many conservatives forget this, and certainly the radical left does not even contain this in their vocabulary. But American exceptionalism can be recognized for the vast immigration to America of persecuted believers throughout the world, and it continues to do so.

So if we translate this into a Christian perspective, the differing cultures who immigrate to America out of a desire for the freedoms we enjoy, do so because God has allowed it to be so. In our hearts then as Christians, we should recognize that the Lord has brought them here for a purpose. We might not know exactly what that purpose is; it might be to send them back as missionaries to their own culture; it might be to protect them from religious persecution in their own countries, or any number of other reasons. But we don’t hold that they are unwelcome because of the culture differences and traditions that could encroach on our own traditions. I think we need to have thicker skin than that, while at the same time, be very concerned with the encroachment of (for example) radical Islam; which has a well-documented history of social upheaval and the diminishing of human rights, or with the radical “new atheism;” which seeks to eradicate religious expression.

Allow me to share an example of a cross-cultural perspective that works for believing Christians:

My sister and her husband are quite “well-to-do.” He’s a private attorney, and she’s a retired county auditor. They are very politically and socially conservative. They are also heavily involved in their church (the EV Free church I mentioned in an earlier reply).

They have always been heavily involved in world missions as supporters; although not directly involved on the mission field. They decided several years ago, after coming across very many foreign exchange students who visited their church, that they would start an outreach for foreign students; most of whom are not themselves Christians.

The way the outreach works, is that they go to the admissions departments of local colleges offering services to incoming foreign students. The students, who might need either a ride from the airport on their arrival, or a place to stay while they attend college, are given phone numbers to call, and they subsequently contact the outreach. There’s nothing clandestine about this. They know full-well that it is a Christian organization. But because America is known as a predominantly Christian nation, most foreigners expect that, and welcome it; even though they are not themselves Christians. You’d also be surprised at how much more open and accepting towards Christianity many young people from abroad are. They haven’t faced the media bias towards Christianity that we encounter here; in many cases.

So with these simple services, my sister and her husband are able to establish these relationships with foreign students. They are subsequently invited to their house for weekly social events with other foreign students, and since my sister and her husband have been Christians for several decades, and he with an MDiv, the pastoring begins. It’s not something that is done formally, but they simply use those situations as opportunities to share their lives with these young people; and their lives are truly excellent witnesses.

I estimate that they have a greater impact on the lives of a few people than the impact that the mega-churches have on multitudes. And that’s because it’s personal, and there’s less confusion as to what the latest trend is that they must adhere to. It’s simple sharing of the love of Christ.

I’ve had the pleasure of meeting many of these students; students from India, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Europe, South America, and I can tell you that this is something that works wonderfully. They give a lot of their time and money to do it, and a lot of Christians don’t have that amount of time or money; but the point is that you don’t have to envision grandiose movements in order to have an impact on peoples’ lives for Christ. I’ve seen several lives changed because of this simple ministry; and it’s just such small ministries that their mega-church encourages and supports. But they wouldn’t have had the resources to start such a ministry if their mega-church controlled all the potential ministry according to some set movement or master plan. Jesus is the master plan. As I stated earlier, the church encourages and equips them to be Christ-followers, so that they are equally equipped to start their own personal ministry to others. That’s why this church is growing with new believers. It has nothing to do with the pastor; although the pastor, Gary Inrig is quite good. It has nothing to do with some sort of newfangled method for reaching others that people collectively buy into at the prodding of some charismatic leader. It has everything to do with the simple pastoring and equipping of believers to be the Christlike salt of the earth that God has already planned in advance.

And finally, since we’re discussing leadership, power, exploitation, heresy and the like, allow me to recommend a very excellent book by a former Jehovah’s Witness, Raymond Franz. His book “In Search of Christian Freedom,” is an autobiographical account of his and his wife’s shunning by the JW’s after some disagreements with church doctrine. This is a man who clearly understood scripture, even as a practicing JW, and he was very high up in the leadership of the church. In fact, his uncle was a past president of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, who has since been credited with “translating” the New World “Translation” of the scriptures (although the church desired those involved to remain anonymous, since they had no real credentials). I highly recommend this book. It’s a great read, and it gives some perspective on what it’s like to be in a highly controlling religious atmosphere, while recognizing that something ain’t quite right.

When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of glory died,
My richest gain I count but loss,
And pour contempt on all my pride.

Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast,
Save in the death of Christ my God!
All the vain things that charm me most,
I sacrifice them to His blood.

See from His head, His hands, His feet,
Sorrow and love flow mingled down!
Did e’er such love and sorrow meet,
Or thorns compose so rich a crown?

His dying crimson, like a robe,
Spreads o’er His body on the tree;
Then I am dead to all the globe,
And all the globe is dead to me.

Were the whole realm of nature mine,
That were a present far too small;
Love so amazing, so divine,
Demands my soul, my life, my all.

To Christ, who won for sinners grace
By bitter grief and anguish sore,
Be praise from all the ransomed race
Forever and forevermore.

He has Risen! Happy Easter everybody. Thanks for the great discussion.

Have a wonderful Easter and Praise the Lord He Lives!

I was in a persecution from Satan for about two years, but it was more in the form of accusing me in my mind (every day) that I was not one of Christ’s. I was in a Reformed/Calvinist church at the time. It was probably one of the worst things I had ever gone through. I was even wondering what was wrong with me and even if I was saved at all. Cried out to the Lord to get rid of the thoughts – did not happen. Kept studying the Word and having faith that I was His no matter what was going on in my mind. After we left the church we were attending, that is when my doubts subsided. So persecution can come in all forms and the Lord used it for good in my situation to get out of where I and my family were.
The Lord Bless Brandon.

Brandon: the Mennonites and Church of the Brethren folks that I’ve met have been wonderfully open and friendly toward folks of all sorts of backgrounds (from people who come from very different kinds of churches to people who’ve never set foot in one).

They also seem to believe in actively helping other people in practical ways, which I like.

And then there’s the non-violent aspect of their beliefs, which also appeals to me greatly.

(Keep in mind that PA *is* the Quaker State, even though there aren’t many Quakers left – I think they were always a minority in PA, really.)

Happy Easter, René!

Sopy

Deb wrote:

Something almost hypnotic happens when you are in an arena with that many people. The bright lights (often strobing) and blaring music almost puts people in a trance. Something psychological happens, and it makes the attendee more accepting of the message. I don’t know all the psychological terms, but I know from experience that this happens.

Nuremberg Rally Syndrome. At least that’s my unofficial name for it. (And outside observers DID describe Nuremberg Rallies as “revival meetings”.)