Mars Hill: Brokenness and Reconciliation or Just Another Lecture?

The church is not a theological classroom. It is a conversion, confession, repentance, reconciliation, forgiveness and sanctification center, where flawed people place their faith in Christ, gather to know and love him better, and learn to love others as he designed. -Paul Tripp

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Weeping man at Wailing Wall-Wikimedia Commons

A few years ago,  I got onto an elevator at church.  It was to carry me to the top floor where my Sunday school class met. There were five others aboard. Halfway between the first and second floors, the elevator abruptly stopped. People stood quietly, not moving or saying anything. I found this very odd.

As you can well imagine, Dee took action but no amount of pushing buttons made a difference. So, I reached out to press the alarm button. One man grabbed my arm, saying, ”Stop. You’ll disturb the worship service.” Believing that I was now on an elevator with a bunch of zombies – one who appeared to be hyperventilating due to claustrophobia and wanting off – I reached around his arm, punched the loud alarm, and retorted, “That is exactly what I intend to do.”

Help arrived and after the appropriate technical ministrations, the elevator moved partially down and we were able to jump out after someone pried the door open. Now, you would think everyone would have learned their lesson. However, two people stayed on the elevator and promptly pushed the button to go up. It made it up there but with a loud scraping noise. Just then, one of the pastors walked by.  I told him they needed to put the elevator out of commission. He shook his head vigorously, saying:  “We need that elevator for Sunday school.”  As far as I know, nothing more happened, but the experience taught me a couple of lessons.

Legalism is alive and well in the church.  People were stuck in an elevator, one woman exhibiting escalating claustrophobia (pun intended), but we were not to make any noise because church was in session. In other words, don‘t trouble the church even with a potential emergency.

Secondly, the safety and well-being of the individual is less important than the church program. The agenda must go on. However, the church is not a program but a living organism made up of people dearly loved by the Savior. The disciples tried to prevent the children from approaching Jesus because, of course, He was in the middle of teaching. Jesus rebuked them and said to let the kids come up to Him. The children were more important to Jesus than the program. In fact, loving the children may have been the real program.

I believe something very similar is playing out in the recent reconciliation attempt by Mars Hil, which they describe as “A Call for Reconciliation" found here.  All the quotes cited in this post are from that document.

Although I am heartened that they use the term “reconciliation”, somehow I am unsure that they truly understand the pain of those who have been hurt by the Mars Hill/Mark Driscoll program. If any of those pastors are reading this blog, I cannot stress enough that there are many, many people who have been deeply wounded by a range of individuals in leadership from Mark Driscoll to care group leaders.  Of course, one or two of these people might be misrepresenting the situation, but I find it hard to believe that all of them are. There is something amiss and it will take radical sensitivity, humility, the willingness to deal with evident issues in leadership along with true servant-hood infused by deep love in order to reverse direction.

“We’ve gotten some negative press regarding two specific church discipline cases.”

No, in this instance, Mars Hill has gotten lots of negative press about far, far more than just two discipline cases There has been plenty of negative press over the years. This is the first time they have been willing to talk about it beyond blowing off a number of complaints from around the United States and the British Isles. Does the heat really have to get this high for them to respond?

A number of people have expressed their concern about their treatment at the hands of leaders at Mars Hill. In fact, the story that generated the most interest after Andrew’s discipline contract/shunning document debacle was the one in which Bent Myer talked about his deeply disturbing firing at Mars Hill. From what I can tell, they are studiously ignoring his testimony. Why?  Here is a link to that story at TWW.

Another widely heralded story that these pastors are trying desperately to make us ignore is Mark Driscoll's attack on Christians in Great Britain here and the infamous sex book in which he appears to blame his wife Grace for his pain here. (What a manly man!)

"Rather than try and defend ourselves or refute misinformation, we simply wish to say that as a church, we’re saddened by this continual attempt to drag into public very private and sensitive issues that were church matters."

I don’t get it. These guys are the ones who are continually attempting to get people to look at their church and its famous pastor.  Mark Driscoll publishes lots of books with controversial material, and he  speaks all around the world, leaving behind anger and confusion. There was the infamous Song of Solomon debacle in Scotland and the offensive “Christians in Britain are cowards” comment. The YouTube kingdom is replete with videos of Driscoll’s strange, and sometimes hostile, utterances. Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll have built their fame on their controversial sermons, books, and statements. They then have the chutzpah to tell us what we can see or not see.

Memo to the leadership  you want things to be private, then stop appearing all over the world and on TV. Somehow the Apostles did a darn fine job converting a hostile world without having a Pastor of PR or discussing their intimate sexual histories.

Here is one video that says it all.  Mark has pornovisions!

"Rather than attack or defend, we wish to reconcile.. there are certainly times where things don’t go as they should—both from our end and from the end of those who are in the process."

Reconciliation is a process that involves both humility and brokenness. It entails going to a person whom you have offended and saying that you are sorry. You reach out, expecting nothing in return. Yet, this statement appears to hint that the pastors intend to raise the problems with those “in process.”  This is not reconciliation!  It appears to be an attempt to get at the people who have already been wounded and let them know what’s wrong with them.

"The choice for us as a church is often to either take the hits in the press or put one of our members forward (often a young woman sexually sinned against) to let our members take the hits and endure the criticism."

Frankly, this is one statement that deeply disturbs me. This past week we received comments and emails from folks claiming that they are not involved with Mars Hill. They then proceeded to tell us that Andrew is a “multiple fornicator” and that Mars Hill is trying to protect women. These well-placed innuendos – one in this quoted statement – either show a breathtaking naïveté or an attempt by Mars Hill to state that criminal activity took place. My guess is that it is the former.

Here is one such statement written by Joe in our comments.

“You do seem to have a lowly view of other MH Pastors who step in to stop a young engaged man who was fornicating with multiple women in the church. Seems like those men were doing their job to protect women from one abusive man in particular and his name is Andrew.”

Here is my response to Joe:

“Now, the church was supposedly “protecting” women from Andrew? Hmmm, now that is an interesting perspective. i would not need you or Mars Hill to “protect” me from a multiple “fornicator.” I would have popped him one and started screaming bloody murder. Are you saying women cannot say “no” to this guy? Was he forcing these women against their will? Then why weren’t the police called? Poor little elder’s daughter, trapped by a wolf and forced to have sex against her will?”

If these women/woman were/was forced into sex against their/her will, this is called rape, and the police should be called immediately. Since the police do not appear to be involved, did Mars Hill determine that this was consensual? If it was consensual, then I find this statement condescending to women everywhere. I know Mark Driscoll believes that women are gullible and easily deceived, but most women I know are perfectly capable of making a decision, whether good or bad, regarding their intimate activities.

TWW stresses that if Mars Hill believes that rapes occurred, they must notify the police. If not, then stop already with the innuendos. 

"Here’s the bottom line: we love people."

Do you? Unfortunately, your fearless leader does not readily demonstrate this love. Since he sets the standard for the church, any reasonable person might have reason to doubt such love. Driscoll makes statements that are decidedly unloving. Why should anyone trust his underlings to be any different?

He insults both a British commentator and the British Christians here

Then there was the really “funny” threat to go Old Testament on some of his leaders. Here is a link because some entity does not want this embedded…

He made fun of "effeminate" worship leaders here. “So what story do you have about the most effeminate anatomically male worship leader you’ve ever personally witnessed?”

Then there was the unfortunate comments that involved blaming the appearance of pastors’ wives for the downfall of Ted Haggard here.

"We ask that you would pray for your leaders, love your city, and wait until we all stand before Jesus to get the facts and a clear verdict."

So, if we see something wrong, we are to wait for eternity to solve it? Boy, that gets a rogue church off the hook! They can hurt people, make public fools of themselves and then tell us all to wait for eternity to deal with it? How nice…

"Since we don’t know who they are, we’d love to meet with them and serve them and begin a process of reconciliation. So please, if you’re reading this, do let us know who you are so we can do all we can to love you by sitting down to meet, listen, and serve."

I bet these pastors know where Bent Myers lives. They know about the Mars Hill Refuge blog. They could send an email through that blog. I bet they could even get a hold of Kevin Potts if they tried.

Also, they should stop using Christian lingo. What exactly are they going to serve at this meeting? Someone’s head on a platter? This sort of lingo is used by C.J. Mahaney, the recently embarrassed head of SGM and mentor of Mark Driscoll.

"And for those who used to be Mars Hill Church members seeking to resolve something from the past, including the majority in the news stories that have not been at our church in roughly six years, the best way to do that is not through the media but rather by meeting with a Mars Hill pastor."

Once again, the person who has been hurt is getting a lecture from the pastors. Anyone who has been through pain does not need those whom they perceive administered that pain, to tell them the best way to handle their situation. In fact, the media attention is what brought Mars Hill to this point. So, to this writer, it seems like it has been a highly effective method.These folks may be smarter than their pastors! These pastors obviously believed that they knew how to handle these situations years ago. . Look at how that turned out. Stop with the demands already and actually listen for a change.

"Our desire is for reconciliation between us and you. This won’t mean we’ll always see eye to eye, but can and should talk face to face in a spirit of humility and grace."

Once again, the victim is being lectured. They are to show grace and humility. If I were these pastors, here is how I would have said this.
 “We are so sorry that this happened to you and realize that you are in pain. We need to ask you for your forgiveness. We want to understand how hurt and angry you are. Don’t worry, we can, and will, take it in order to bring about forgiveness and reconciliation. We want you to know that we will do everything in our power to care for you. This is about our need to ask for forgiveness. We ask only that you listen to us and give us a chance."

Where the heck is Mark Driscoll?

This call for reconciliation is signed by generic pastors. The buck should stop at Mark Driscoll. For all of his tough guy talk, he appears to be a wuss, hiding behind the proverbial clerical gowns of his boys.

A real man would take the hits. A real leader would take the responsibility for the mistakes but I guess it is far more important to run around to talk shows and discuss oral sex, letting others take the fall. He is the one who should model the love of Jesus to the world. As I listen to him, I have to say that I'm not feeling the love.

For now, it appears that this move is to protect Mark Driscoll and the church from further negative publicity. Where is the brokenness and where is the love?

We end with a video of John Piper loving on Mark. For once, i would like to here him throw a bone to the victims of spiritual abuse. I guess that is too much to expect.

4/1/12 update: Well, someone removed the first posting of this video and someone just put it back up. Here it is!

Remember to pray  for Bent Myer, Andrew, Sophia, Kaelee, Kevin and those who have not yet spoken.

Lydia's Corner: Jeremiah 16:16-18:23 1 Thessalonians 4:1-5:3 Psalm 81:1-16 Proverbs 25:6-8

 

Comments

Mars Hill: Brokenness and Reconciliation or Just Another Lecture? — 223 Comments

  1. This isn’t an apology as much as it is damage control. (emphasis on control).
    The most disturbing statement is in the parentheses. “The choice for us as a church is often to either take the hits in the press or put one of our members forward (often a young woman sexually sinned against)”

    The woman is the “victim?” HA! Obviously they haven’t read their Bibles as women are often the ones aggressively pursuing men! Seems to me that MD’s wife’s frigidity has made him believe that all women are this way. I have personally witnessed that the WOMEN have been the most aggressive sexually with young men in churches. At the very least it is 50/50. Women are sexual beings and pursue it just like men! And, who do they blame in a lesbian or gay relationship?

    The “Mars Hill Pastors” are just ignorant, beer-drinking frat-fan boys of Mark Driscoll.

  2. It’s quite funny that a lot of these mega-churchers are priest writ-large (to quote a poem from Milton).

    I’ll never cease to be baffled by Driscoll’s comment about Britain lacking a well known, young bible-loving preacher. Thank God! The more one understands Scripture and humility, I think, the less likely he is to appear in headlines.

    How many of these so called pastors laugh inwardly when they hear ‘priesthood of all believers’? How many take to heart the words of the Lord’s brother James, “Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly”

    Pax,
    Cal

  3. Quick additional story to main thrust:

    My ma works at a catholic middle school and a Cardinal of the DC Diocese was visiting the school to give a speech. Everyone was super excited, and this little girl (I think 3rd or 4th grade) was sick and ended up vomiting on the floor in one of the hall ways. A lot of the staff frantically went about cleaning up the mess, but no one (of 5-6 people) attended the girl. My ma went over and helped clean herself up and make sure she was ok.

    Catholic or Protestant, religiousity permeates many people and truly, life in Christ is lacking in much of these man-made institutions.

  4. Mark
    Do you really believe the wife’s frigidity? I think something smells in that whole story. Frankly, being married to that man who blames everyone else for his issues would make anyone a bit reticent. BTW, you didn’t see me defending the women in this relationships. I take responsibility for my own actions. I think they are playing some games about what happened with these women.
    One of my friends used the term for these MH pastors as beer swilling legalists.

  5. Just after the “take the hits” line, they further explain that they don’t want to potentially break the law by divulging information from a counseling session. Yet, in the linked prior statement and book excerpt, Driscoll states:
    “Furthermore, we do not conduct biblical counseling with someone unless they sign a waiver relinquishing their right to confidentiality. If we refer people to an outside counselor, we likewise have them and their counselor sign a confidentiality waiver so that if we need to know about something, or if we need to notify the police, we can without legal recourse. Without this kind of foresight, sinners corner church leaders between a proverbial rock and a hard place, like the guy who early in my pastoral ministry told me he had cheated on his wife repeatedly and feared he had a venereal disease but did not want to tell her and expected me to cover for him under the guise of confidentiality. I just laughed loudly as I picked up my phone to call his wife while he threatened to sue me.”

    Waivers on me tonight boys! Lawtender, pour another round! Waivers all around!

  6. And there’s something creepily, chauvinistically wrong in a church when the primary category of “sinned against” members are cheated-upon young women.

  7. The quote is under Step Two Consider the Crime in the Jan 27 post “Church Displine in the Bible” — the first link they give in the current article.

  8. I suspect, but haven’t researched, the “sexually siinned-against” needing protection via church discipline are most likely to be sexually active, unmarried young women, not just any old young women. Any folks with inside MH info know?

  9. Yep, some people have the gift of discernment. Well, I have that gift, and I discern that Mark Driscoll isn’t telling the truth about his “visions”.

    Case in point – do pedophiles automatically confess to their sins when confronted?

    Yeah, right Mark… Anyone who believes that tall tale is gullible and easily deceived.

  10. Deb
    Are you saying that Mark and some of his followers think we are gullible and easily deceived because we are women? After listening to Piper in that video clip, I think some men might fall into that category as well.

  11. Dave

    I need to post this. Under no circumstances should anyone ever give up their right to confidentiality in a church. This is a very serious issue and people have no idea how much could be said about them if such rights are given up.

    DO NOT GIVE UP YOUR RIGHT TO CHURCH BASED CONFIDENTIALITY, EVER!!!! PLEASE!!!

    If you do, you may end up writing a post for TWW about your sad experience.

  12. I have a request for the guys who are posting here re. MD’s wife.

    Would it be possible to not use the word “frigidity”?

    That is a such a cop-out and shouts “It’s all her fault!” to the whole world.

    … of course, men blaming women for their own problems is nothing new, but “frigidity” is a very outdated word (and concept, imo).

    We never do find out exactly why Grace didn’t want to have sex as frequently as MD – could it be that she was just plain tired (being a young mom)? Could it be that she was experiencing pain during and/or after sex? (There are any number of reasons that that can happen, and they are NOT the woman’s fault. Seeking medical attention from a good gyn is the 1st step.)

    Everything MD is upset about in that book appears to be his wife’s “fault,” from haircuts to “not being visually generous.”

    What did he do wrong? Could it be that the so-called “sexual” problems were really NOT about sex? (I hate to see people like MD touting the idea that sex is the be-all, end-all and fix-all in a relationship.)

    Obviously, I don’t want to know anything more about MD and Grace’s relationship than he’s already spilled (TMI, anyone), but the point remains that she doesn’t get to talk about her side of the story in that blasted book.

    fwiw, “frigid/frigidity” reminds me way too much of the old label for mothers of autistic kids – “refrigerator mothers.”

    Personally, I think MD and others like him are of the “When in doubt, blame the woman/women” persuasion.

    And that’s pretty much a definition of “misogyny.”

  13. Forgot to mention that MH’s claim about having to “put women forward” is one of the most hypocritical things that I’ve heard in a long time.

    Plus, their use of the word “serve” is (imo) noxious.

    Toxic faith, anyone?

  14. I am sympathetic with those who have felt abused at MH and other churches. But to be honest I am offended with the sound bite loop of John Piper made to the various MD statements made in the video posted above. John Piper is a godly man whom I have great respect for. Because he agrees with basic doctrines of Mars Hill (and is friends with Mark) doesn’t necessarily mean he “loves” the kind of rhetoric that Mark uses when he preaches. If you listen to John Piper’s messages he doesn’t sound anywhere close to Mark. His sermons are night and day different…at least for the dozen or so I have personally heard. The sound bite loop of John saying, “I love Mark Driscoll’s theology” over and over again is flat out wrong and should be taken down. If you really feel this is how John feels, then send him this video and ask him. Before you consider making an objection to my comment do know that I one of those who left MH after the elder/pastor firings. I posted a great deal on blogs because I was angry, then later apologized to MH leadership for the attitude I communicated in those comments. I was vindictive in my heart and wanted to see Mark punished. I felt justified at the time, but didn’t like what it was doing to me internally. I made no apology to MH leaders as to my feelings in the firings of the two pastors. (I knew them personally), I just felt the way I shared those feelings on the internet was wrong and I needed to get it right with God. Apologizing to MH was God’s way of me making this right in my heart. They were very gracious in their response. Be ye angry, and sin not. (Ephesian 4:6). I like your website and appreciate your insights here (don’t agree with everything posted) and thats ok.

  15. Mark and Grace Driscoll are going to be on the View on Wednesday. It would be cool if people flooded the View’s facebook page with his misogynist quotes. Like the church planter’s wife has the “most important job in the church plant — having sex with the church planter.”

  16. One thing I need to clarify about the John Piper/Driscoll video is the way it was made. It makes John Piper look like an idiot as if he loved each one of Mark’s individual statements that were pulled from various sermons and pieced together….then taking this one line of Piper and dubbing it in. Please consider redoing the video and leave John Piper out of it.

  17. What!? I hurt you but I do not remember who you are???????!@

    None of my time with any of the “pastors” of that group were productive. Often, they simply hurt me without mercy.

    Tactically, this makes them look as if their intents are good, while virtually making sure they will not have to deal with any problems as those already hurt will not come forward due to their interest in their own safety.

    Job sought out those hurting. If Mars Hill will not seek out those it has hurt, I do not believe they have any intent other than to forsake them and continue to pursue vainglory and gain.

  18. So let me get this straight. Andrew is quite possibly a serial womanizer (“not that there’s anything wrong with that.”)

  19. Mike
    I am frankly tired of the reformed guys sticking up for Mark Driscoll. Piper has not said one thing that would be construed as negative about Driscoll. He has only said things positive about Driscoll. If Piper speaks out against Driscoll, I will remove the video. Until then, Piper is part of the problem.

  20. Mike
    I am glad you have found peace with Mars HIll and have apologized to them for the vindictiveness in your heart. I feel differently.I have no personal feelings about them. I have never attended his church.I deeply disagree with driscoll and I disagree with John Piper propping up his ministry.No, the you tube video will not be removed unless Piper clarifies his comments.

  21. Tod
    I am so sorry for the pain that you suffered at the hands of these men.I am still waiting to see any modicum of love extended to those who are in pain. After speaking with others who have ben hurt, I understand the need for safety. Constant painful conversations from those who are supposed to represent the church can have long lasting and serious consequences in the lives of those who have been on the receiving end. If you ever wish to tell your story, let us know.

  22. Rory
    Great idea. I would be surprised if those women would let Driscoll get away with is horrible statements about women in general and his subtle derision of Grace in the book.

  23. A few things here.

    First, in the spirit of fairness, I have to admit that there is no way to ever fully know how genuine MH is being about reconciliation. The only way we could ever know for sure would be if that reconciliation was taking place in public, and for whatever reason (possibly some legitimate ones!) MH has made it plain that this can’t happen. Honestly, I can’t blame them for wanting to be careful about what they say of members in public. Churches really can get in trouble for that, I’m sure, regardless of what kinds of waivers members have signed.

    Given all that, we still have evidence to look at and speculate about. I agree that this post could have been more gracious. They say they aren’t interested in defending themselves, yet they seem to be phrasing things in a way that implies why they are right and others are wrong. Frankly, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with defending oneself, but I wish they would just come right out and admit that this is what they’re trying to do. And even barring that, at the very least, DON’T cloak defense in humility and apologies. That’s just silly.

    Second, why are they using the excuse of “we don’t want to throw victimized women under the bus” when a sexually victimized woman is only involved in one of the many stories people are asking questions about? Because it’s not a common denominator in all the stories, I am tempted to conclude that they chose it because they thought it was a sensitive enough issue to make people back off.

    Finally, I’m not sure how to take the timing of this. When these stories hit the scene, it took MH weeks to come up with this reconciliation post. During that time, Driscoll himself was reacting with anything but humility, putting snarky quotes about critics on Twitter and having a “In Defense of Church Discipline” post put on his blog. There was no immediate reaction of concern, humility, or desire for reconciliation; it was either defense or snark for weeks.

    So I hope Driscoll will forgive me if it’s hard to accept the humility as genuine now. It seems that the humility only showed up once they realized the bad press wasn’t going away. Now, can I say for sure that this was their true motivation? No. But I hope even they would admit that it looks weird.

    Finally, I’m not sure why they’re trying to make us shake our fingers at the victims for going public with these stories. The victims have made it very clear that dealing with the problems within MH itself was not possible, and that their motivation is to tell their story somewhere where it will be heard. MH may not agree that they, as a church, are that hard to deal with, but they should at least understand the motivation; if you feel a serious problem is going on, and the sinning party can’t be stopped privately, you take it to a bigger forum.

    Ironically, this is the very principle of church discipline that they claim to be so devoted to.

  24. Serve??

    “Since we don’t know who they are, we’d love to meet with them and serve them and begin a process of reconciliation. So please, if you’re reading this, do let us know who you are so we can do all we can to love you by sitting down to meet, listen, and serve.”

    Serve them…love you by sitting down to met, listen, and serve.

    “Serve” — such a religious word. Can’t figure out what exactly it means in this context.

    But the overwhelming sense I get is one of life management. Let us manage you, the process you’re going through, and your life.

    I’m able to control the urge to panic and hyperventilate at the moment — but it’s there.

  25. Clinton, “I did not have sexual relations with that woman.”

    Dee, you wish to parse “womanizer?”

  26. “The choice for us as a church is often to either take the hits in the press or put one of our members forward (often a young woman sexually sinned against) to let our members take the hits and endure the criticism.”

    Put one of our members forward?

    Weird language. But the mental picture it instantly conjured up was of Bin Laden putting forward one of his wives as he let her take the hits.

  27. Jimmy
    I am dead serious.What do you mean by womanizer? Is it a man who forces himself on women? Is it consensual? If a woman has consensual relations with multiple men, is she a manizer?

  28. Elastigirl
    Thank you for your comment. I, too, was confused by this statement? How does one “put forward” a member? Who does the putting? Does the member have a say in said putting? I think that Mars Hill has developed a culture with its own lingo that does not translate well to those outside.

  29. Anonymous
    Years ago, the Twilight Zone had an episode in which aliens landed and told them they were there to serve mankind. Except serve turned out to mean that mankind was to be a food source for the aliens. The humans were getting served up. I hope there are no parallels here.

  30. Jimmy:

    You said:”So let me get this straight. Andrew is quite possibly a serial womanizer (“not that there’s anything wrong with that.”)”

    Why do you repeat such hateful things when you have no proof whatsoever?

    I sure hope this never happens to you.

  31. Dee – an apt comparison! (Twilight Zone episode.)

    I see … ex-members being “served” with lawsuits, maybe? (Not joking, given those membership contracts.)

    I have to wonder if the MH press (etc.) people are circling the wagons because they know that they are hiding some big problems that won’t go away. I bet they are worried that The Stranger will publish an article with even more damaging accusations and examples…

  32. … and that there are people out there who could sue the pants off MH, MD and co. I really think MH is worried. (Also that MD keeps going out of control on social media sites and that someone is trying to rein him in, but…)

    What a very sad pile of wreckage it is – sad for those who are being harmed and have been harmed, that is, not for MD and MH as a corporate entity.

  33. This is almost identical to the verbage and excuses coming out of SGM regarding those that have been left by the wayside. These men have no business calling themselves pastors. CEO is a better title with their cutthroat tactics and desire to save the brands — YUCK!

  34. Rory –

    They are looking for an “Executor Director of Ministries.” I can’t see this as a necessity for anything but a business. It’s easy to see how people are trampled when they get in the way. MH forgets that sharing the Good News with PEOPLE is the mission – not planting churches (i.e. building an empire).

  35. Rory
    Unbelievable. They now need a head hunter for the “perfect” exec…Is this a ministry or a corporation?

  36. “This person must be highly organized, detail oriented, task focused, relationally motivated, have excellent verbal and written communication skills and be a strong leader and manager of people and processes. The successful candidate will be a high-capacity leader with large church experience and a passion to work with leaders who serve people across the generations – from children through senior adults across multiple geographic locations. This person will contribute to the ministry of Mars Hill by executing strategy and possessing a clear and large scale vision. In addition, this person will have excellent management, project planning skills, and a penis.”

    Okay, I added those last three words.

  37. I’ve been noticing the “I See Things” video used in a lot of blogs about MD to show evidence that he is a lunatic. I just want to point out that I believe that him claiming to “see things” isn’t a crazy as many want to believe. I believe in gifts of the holy spirit, including prophecy, as I am gifted in this and am learning to further expand on how to use it to further the Kingdom of God. So, to me, him seeing things isn’t that strange.

    Now I will admit I am by far no fan of MD. In fact, I completely disagree with him in almost every way possible, and the recent stories of abuse have deeply saddened me and has sent me into a state of bitterness toward him (sin which I am working on).

    But I have very little issue believing that he may actually see things. For the Bible says “22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” Matthew 7:22-23. Now how he uses this interpretation may not be always be used for the glory of God, but I have no problem with the idea that Driscoll may actually be gifted with this. Now his stories do sound a bit fishy and unrealistic (as I am also gifted with discernment like you, Deb).

    But I guess I am asking what your thoughts are about the possibility of him being gifted with visions and prophecy, but may be misusing them?

  38. Thank you for this post! Like the one at Mars Hill Refuge, it perfectly captures how the call for reconciliation made me feel when I read it. I love this blog, thank you so much for everything you do!

  39. We end with a video of John Piper loving on Mark. For once, i would like to here him throw a bone to the victims of spiritual abuse. I guess that is too much to expect.

    As in Piper = Bella and Driscoll = EDWARD (sparkle sparkle)?

    (Or Piper = Harley Quinn and Driscoll = The Joker?)

    Incidentally, Piper just got in the news over at Internet Monk — shot off his mouth about how God sent those tornadoes into Indiana as Judgment and who are we to question God’s Judgment upon us? (I think Pat Robertson has handed off his mantle…)

  40. I know this a bit of a stretch, but go with me for a second….even more than Piper. The main Reformed author/teacher who seems to have gone without scrutiny is JI Packer.

    Packer is an author, who has been held in high regard for decades. It was Packer who first lent his credibility to the likes of John Wimber, Wayne Grudem, and John Piper. Packer has endorsed books on Biblical Counseling that denigrate medication. Packer has endorsed books that claim Christians can be demon possessed.

    CJ Mahaney and Mark Dever have served on boards or even written forewords for Packer’s books.

    How is it that Packer has been able to endorse 100’s of Christian books (which usually means he was financially compensated for his written endorsement) including the varied likes of these guys and never face much scrutiny?

    I would gander to say, that many of the “Calvinistas” (including Piper) would not gotten much attention without the endorsement of JI Packer…

  41. Well thanks ladies! I am only a few weeks into posting on your blog and you already decided to include me in one of your posts. Let me know when you want me to do a guest post for y’all.

  42. I know this may seem scandalous to folks but consider meeting with campus pastors if you’re a former MH member. Really. It’s the campus pastors who will be implementing church discipline. They’re the ones who will need to hear from former members what is and isn’t considered abusive. Odds are pretty good that elders and staff who got cut loose for displaying a pattern of “overstepping spiritual authority” had no idea they were seen in that light until they got canned. If the campus pastors don’t get a bunch of interviews about what would be considered abusive and bad form the next time they may find out is when one of them gets canned retroactively for having overstepped a boundary that nobody considered important until another press leak happened. Yeah, I put that in inflammatory terms but I hope you can roll with it.

    If you’re a former member from MH, there’s not really anything they can do to you. I pointed this out to friends years ago who claimed MH could use magical super-mojo to harm people professionally.

    When I stopped being a member, I shared my concerns at length with my campus pastor. Sure, I can tell that simply through Andrew’s story making the news nobody really listened to what I said, but does that mean I shouldn’t have shared my concerns? I don’t think so. If MH needs to be told by hundreds of ex-MH members there are things they need to improve, it may be worth doing despite the discomfort. Think about it, there really isn’t anything they can actually do to you, is there? Hurt your feelings? Go public with something? They’re trying to not go public with more stuff about Andrew and even Andrew obviously obscured a lot of details in his account to avoid giving away the names of parties involved (what MH may think was misleading or incomplete came across to me as a guy trying to not give away too many details to identify the parties involved).

    Now suppose everyone assumes the offer is insincere. Suppose nobody goes to meet. When the window closes (and at some point we all know it will) then the leaders will be able to say they made an effort to invite constructive criticism, and it was declined. Then, paradoxically, the people who are upset online now will become complicit, in a way, in perpetuating what they already consider to be a self-justifying approach to doing church in MH.

    I’m not suggesting anyone “must” meet with a campus pastor about things from the past but I’m suggesting that since the campus pastors are the ones tasked with local church discipline or counseling these are the ones who most need to know how they can do better (or in some cases do better than their predecessors). I did that with my campus pastor on my way out from formal membership.

    Over the years I’ve heard a number of people ask who is going to be the “Nathan” in the case of Mh and go show David the error of his ways. IF the analogy even applies at all it won’t apply to people who blog or email. Folks who want a Nathan to speak to David have to remember Nathan risked something. All things considered what Nathan risked was a lot more than what people would risk meeting with a campus pastor. Just something to consider.

  43. Nate
    I find it interesting that, with his penchant or discussing all things sexual that his visions center around detailed visions of rape and abuse. If he told us that he had equal visions of a guy hiding money from his company under the sofa or a woman taking her daughter’s Ritalin pills to give herself a boost, I might listen. Having training in psych nursing in the community, I have deep concerns about him. I would have reported such a patient with similar visions in similar circumstances to his doctor. I believe that something is really wrong with this.

  44. Eagle
    I thought of you when I read about Piper and the storm. You perceptively made similar comments in the Piper and the bridge disaster.

  45. dee
    Oh yeah completely agree. These visions are some of the strangest accounts of “prophecy” I’ve heard within Christendom. To me, they don’t seem legit. But, I also believe a lot of people are gifted with visions who are not following Christ or perusing a legitimate relationship with him, hence the false prophets and so on.

    I guess my overall point isn’t to defend MD having visions. Because I honestly believe it’s complete garbage to control his crowed. But because I’ve been the video used so much lately to show how crazy he is I feel like it might be devaluing those who do actually see visions.

  46. Joe

    You know, we do need sleep out here on the East Coast. We don’t have as many coffee huts as you do out there. Instantaneous response to your comments is not in the cards.

    Now, as you can see, we allow all sorts of comments on this blog, including ones that do not reflect well on us well-dressed blog queens. So, at least give us props. Betcha Mars Hill would never allow such comments per Kevin Pott’s experience. Frankly, Wenatchee did a good job of expressing many views with which we agree so I am not going to cover much of what he said.

    I believe that unless the woman was forced against her will, then this was consensual. This “protect” the women reeks of condescension unless there is criminal activity. The women were equally at fault and I am tired of them getting off the hook.

    For a guy that doesn’t attend Mars Hill, you seem to be really angry about our views on Mars Hill. If you don’t have an actual physical connection, then you have a psychological connection which is quite evident to me.

    Your comment was featured because you are one example of well placed innuendos. Frankly, I choose to support and believe Bent, Sophia and all the others who have been hurt. There are far too many decent people who have concerns for me to believe they are all just a bunch of losers and Mars Hill is the City on the Hill filled with shining, good people who are being picked upon by a pack of wolves.

    You are claiming far more about Andrew, but you do so by dropping hints. Your comments appear to indicate that he is a womanizer who preys upon innocent women. Frankly, women can be as much to blame as the men in these situations; however, since one of the women is an elder’s daughter, could it be that there is a little bias?

    Oh course, blatant sin needs to be dealt with. How it is dealt with is another issue all together. I find that months of counseling resulting in a discipline contract that details ALL sexual history with a letter posted on the Internet regarding the infamous shun is over the top. Driscoll should have the same process applied to him since he did the same thing in the past.

    Tell me how many people who struggle with pride and greed at Mars Hill have their contract in place, along with a shunning order placed on the Internet?

    Here is the real problem with how this was handled. You can bet that no one else will ever confess their struggles to the pastors if this is the net result. You will have a church filled with people with smiles on their faces, learning how to brew beer, and dying inside. I have been a member of a church that dealt with such a situation in a far more thoughtful manner with the end result being reconciliation.

    And stop with you comments about encouraging sin. That is absolute nonsense.

    Instead, look at your own life today. How would you like to have a microphone attached to your brain and let the world and your church hear what you are thinking? Today, you will likely think or do the very thing you rail against. But, you are doing a better job at concealing it, covering over your life with a self-righteous veneer. I thank God for His mercy and grace extended to me because I, as well as you, struggle internally. And as Jesus said “If you lust in your heart, you have committed adultery.” All of us, in one or another, have struggled with many issues. It is far too easy to deflect to another’s sin. May God melt your heart for those who have pain.

  47. Wenatchee the Hatchet,

    I am inclined to agree with you that ex-members should at least consider contacting MH and genuinely trying to explain their hurts. I’m not saying that I believe this reconciliation thing is completely devoid of being a PR move, but I definitely see your point that it gives ex-members a chance to plainly show MH what is considered inappropriate behavior. Then if MH doesn’t listen, it’s all on them.

    It’s important to keep in mind both sides of the coin, of course. For instance, what if Mars Hill pastors met with a bunch of disgruntled ex-members but still failed to admit any wrongdoing on their part, failed to internalize the message that ex-members were trying to give them? In that case, nothing would be made better or worse, EXCEPT–then Mars Hill could turn around and say, “All you Christians in the wider American Church no longer have any justification to hold our church up to scrutiny or hold us accountable. See, we already met with these people and discussed things, so if they aren’t satisfied, it’s because they’re holding grudges. Therefore, you should assume they’re in the wrong and we’re in the right, because clearly we did everything we could on our side.” In other words, they could use these unproductive meetings as a tool to deflect further critique (perhaps deserved and necessary critique).

    On the whole, I don’t think that’s a strong enough reason to deter members from contacting MH and telling their story. I just think it’s something to be aware of.

    Also, I hope MH realizes that victims will probably be very open on the blogosphere regarding how these reconciliation meetings go….

  48. While the drama plays out at Mars Hill, Mark Driscoll is going around the country peddling his Real Marriage book.

    He and Grace will be guests on The View tomorrow:

    The View

    Wednesday’s Show – Raven-Symoné co-hosts! Plus: Pastor Mark & Grace Driscoll’s marriage advice, and Dancing with the Stars pro Karina Smirnoff’s fitness tips!

  49. I find it interesting that, with his penchant or discussing all things sexual that his visions center around detailed visions of rape and abuse. — Dee

    I think the guy’s kinky as F, but as a CELEBRITY Megachurch Preacher he doesn’t dare admit to it. Turning sexual fantasies into “Godly Visions” (whether consciously or subconsciously) brings that kink out in an acceptable manner. He might also be trying to secretly self-treat; again, as a CELEBRITY Megachurch Preacher, he doesn’t dare show any weakness or imperfection.

    And have you ever noticed (especially with the macho faux-hawk hair in some of his other pics) he looks like some pudgy Kewpie doll? Buttery doughy Kewpie doll. I can guess what his high school days must have been like, and why he went into such “I Can Beat You Up!” hypermasculinity once he became top dog. What’s next, claiming he used to be a Navy SEAL? (According to the SEAL who keeps the actual service records, they get a lot of SEAL posers who are clergy.)

  50. Did Driscoll really say that remark about the Church planter’s wife? Someone please tell me that it isn’t true??!! Because if it is, that loser needs a wake up call.

  51. Mot,

    Great comment!

    I wonder why some of the higher ups in the SBC endorse Driscoll’s book and ministry.

  52. I think Mark’s problematic qualities are partly the way he is, and partly a result of trying to mask deep insecurities. I think he could be doing the latter without realising it – some people, if they’re carrying scars, will either lash out or shut down, and those things are automatic reactions. Don’t get me wrong, I’m aware that he has some deep, complex behavioural issues, and at the end of the day he is definitely lacking in a) spiritual maturity and b) self awareness. Mark Driscoll is not a mature Christian, but he thinks that he is, and he thinks that he is more ‘on the ball’ than many other people. I think, and this is just an opinion, that he believes his own thoughts and feelings far too quickly, with far too much conviction, and often mistakes his own internal dialogue with the voice of God. And worse, he doesn’t seem to realise that he needs to submit to his congregation. He needs to put his plans last, not first. However, it’s not uncommon for an immature person to think that they’re the VIP in the room and that critics are always wrong.

    Please realise I’m only making educated guesses here. My point is that Driscoll needs a big divine wake-up call – he needs to realise his weaknesses and where he’s done wrong. Right now he is in a place of being severely deceived. I’m no fan of his and I don’t really care how much of a fall he has to take in order to change, but my prayers are that sometime down the line he’ll re-emerge with a transformed mind.

    Meanwhile the more we ‘common folk’ can do to help get through to him, the better.

  53. Rene–

    Your post made me laugh out loud. I was so not expecting those last three words!!! hahahahaha

    Bridget–

    When I read this “call for reconciliation” by MH, I thought the same exact thing you just said and that was it reminds me of allll the many letters that were pouring out of SGM when the crap hit the ceiling over there. I’m not sure if many people participating in this thread who are wondering what MH means, but if you take a hop, skip and a jump over to the SGM Survivors blog and take a look at early last year when people started speaking out about CJ Mahaney and his family of churches. The “apology” letters from SGM were cloaked in controlling verbiage, telling people what to do, what not to do, blaming the offended and everything else that MH did exactly here. It’s the same ole crap, just a different day.

    And the way Covenant Life, SGM, CJ Mahaney and all their other pastors generally responded will be the same here. I’d bet my next paycheck on it, and trust me, I need that sucker baddd cause it’s rent week! tee-hee.

    They are not seeking reconciliation because if they were, it would not be confusing, off-putting, intimidating, blaming, instructive and all of the other adjectives that can be found in their letter that are far from the characteristic of being remorseful, repentant, humble, ashamed, mournful, broken, responsible, flexible, honoring, loving, kind and just.

    It reminds me of the old “if I did something to hurt you, then I’m sorry. But you were wrong too.” Wait! What??? Is this an apology??!? And how is it so if you don’t even acknowledge or understand how you hurt me?

    Also, “gracious” has worn out its welcome on these blogs, IMO. What one finds as a lack of graciousness to the offenders, someone else may see as a tough conversation, comment or critique needed. People need to understand that what one may find gracious or a lack thereof, is also subjective. Sometimes, it’s necessary to go hard or go home. Sometimes, it’s necessary to call it what it is, in all it’s ugliest of ways and do not apologize for doing so. Sometimes, it’s necessary to use tough words that cannot or should not be circumvented by niceties, or smoothness. Sometimes the truth is very plain and bold, and it is what it is.

    Mars Hill lacks grace and has/is doing some very despicable things purporting to represent God. A response to their ridiculousness doesn’t always have to appear smooth, gracious or kind. It simply isn’t always possible. Considering what they are doing and what they have done, they should be in a posture of humility willing to accept whatever is thrown at them and given them understanding that they deserve it all. It is THEIR JOB to sift out the emotions of those they hurt and the outrage of those they have offended. It is not their job to try and control that emotion or outrage. They should simply listen and consider.

  54. oh and if you wanna see what can be accomplished with two people, or many, arguing over graciousness and how one was approached in an attempt to facilitate a conversation, rather than focusing on what the other person is really saying, the actual content of the message, then please read Brent Detwiler’s volumes of email exchanges between the leadership at SGM. It is a crying shame.

  55. Doubtful – your thoughts about J.I. Packer are making a lot of sense to me… I need to do a little scouting around, as That Church (the one I got booted from) started using calvinista jargon (and acting in abusive ways) well before the whole calvinista thing became “popular.”

    Hmm….

    (also, can you point me to specific books by Packer?)

  56. Trina –

    Brent had a oost on February 23 called “Mush-Minded Invertebrates.” In it he cited a complete article by Michael Bauman titles “The Theology of Invective.” It was quite good and eye-opening with regard to some of the controlling language issues that we see in the Calvanista Clans these days. I think you would enjoy it 🙂

    Re: SGM and their communication skills . . . The open letters they were posting last Summer and Fall to members and former members that they wanted to hear from were terrible. I actually emailed them several times to tell them what those blogs sounded like and conveyed to people who had been hurt by them. I told them they needed to get someone else to write the blogs if they were really serious about hearing from people. And this is besides the point that they should KNOW who most of the people were that were hurt and offended by the treatment they received!

  57. For those who think we should meet and fill out the form:

    I see your point and reasoning. I still maintain that my elders know exactly who I am and can get ahold of me via email (personal or blog) and by telephone. They also have my address. I would consider it under the circumstances I blogged about, but only under those circumstances.

    For Everyone:

    Quite frankly, today, I am feeling quite sick of all of this. Sick of MH, sick of my blog, sick of church, sick of all this talk about reconciliation, and anxious for this all to be over.

    I would just like to move on, and I don’t know how to do that and still continue to help the people I have and am helping. I am tired of thinking about all of this. I have little kids and a family and part of me is tempted to meet in hopes that it will be fruitful so I can just leave this all behind me. I know I will always be changed by it, but I look forward to it not being on the forefront of my life.

    Okay, rant over.

  58. Sophia –

    I can totally understand how you feel and how the whole situation can become all consuming. You have a young family which is of utmost importance as well. All I really know to say is to seek God regarding your personal issues with MH and how you and your husband should bring that to a close. Again, with the blog and the people gou are helping there, give it to God in prayer and see what happens. Your steps will be directed as you take them – that’s how it usually works for me anyway. Thank you for giving people from MH a place to talk 🙂

  59. Sophia – it sounds like you might need to take a break for a while.
    It’s a very legit response to the overwhelmingness, no?

    I wonder if there’s someone else who can help field the emails, questions and comments for you?

  60. Numo,

    I would happily hand it over to someone who I thought would keep it in the spirit it was created in….HAPPILY.

    Any takers? LOL

  61. Numo-

    It’s not so much the books that Packer has written (though I think Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God & The Puritans laid the groundwork for Piper, Grudem and others)-but it is the many Christian authors and ideas he endorsed.

    Here’s but a sampling of books he endorsed:

    http://www.amazon.com/PsychoBabble-Failure-Psychology-Biblical-Alternative/dp/0891077340

    http://www.amazon.com/Give-You-Authority-Charles-Kraft/dp/0800792564

    Dr J. I. Packer wrote of his book, I GIVE YOU AUTHORITY, ‘Dr. Kraft’s exposition of delegated divine power may seem simplistic to some, but all will find here much reality, much wisdom, much encouragement, and much to praise God for.’

    And many of the usual suspects show up on this one:

    http://www.amazon.com/Place-Condemned-Stood-Celebrating-Atonement/dp/1433502003

    Packer has literally lent his support to hundreds of Christian authors…many probably would never have had such a wide audience without his endorsement.

    At least, that’s my story and I’m sticking to it!

  62. Sophia,

    Dee may have a different opinion that I will express to you, but I see no need for someone who has never been a member of Mars Hill to reconcile. Reconcile to what? There is NOTHING for you to reconcile as far as I’m concerned. Now someone who had been a member of Mars Hill for a decade (for example) might be inclined to meet with his/her former pastors. They would have a long-established relationship to possibly reconcile. As far as I’m concerned, MH blew it with you. They need to learn from their mistakes. In the meantime, I recommend that you take a breather and pray about what God would have you to do. Just my opinion…

  63. doubtful – gotcha, and thanks! I really appreciate the links, and have a feeling that PsychoBabble might be helpful in terms of tracing where certain ideas came from… there was a real sea change at That Church, seemingly accelerated around the time Piper’s Christian Hedonism came out.

    One hallmark was ranting about how bad psychotherapy is (I really was shocked when the guy in the pulpit started ranting about that) as well as a focus on a scary, ultimately (almost) unknowable God – super-OT.

    Moses’ experience of the so-called “darkness of God” (up on the mountain, in the cloud) was a big part of it.

  64. Thanks Deb. I am going to have to take a break for a while. We have other exciting positive things going on and I can’t really fully appreciate those.
    We never anticipated that telling my story here and starting a support blog would have turned into what it has. I started my blog Jan. 20…less than 2 months ago, and between the two of us we have had over 55,000 hits. We did not solicit the publicity we got.
    It is very hard to process this type of situation on a “public” stage, open to criticism and further abuse that would not occur if we were to try to heal privately, but I would do it again. I am so grateful that God does not love me IF or BECAUSE, but he loves me ANYWAY.

  65. By “darkness of God” I don not mean The Dark Night of the Soul, which is a book and quite different.

    What I *do* mean is that somehow the light of Christ – and Christ as the light of the world – was deliberately set aside for an inscrutable YHWH whose coming was marked by dark clouds and frightening occurrences. Somehow, that version of God was being held up as better and/or at very least, preferable to the openness and love of Jesus Christ.

  66. Sophia – maybe you can just put the blog on hiatus for a while? You can even make it private (using Blogger’s software) if you want to.

    And maybe there will be some helpers, or other people doing the blogging, in due course…

  67. Sophia–

    I agree with Dee and Deb… I thought that, in my situation, had that occurred, like a letter or announcement for people hurt by my church, or just an outreach from them were to happen, that I woudn’t know what to do. After much contemplation, and thinking about what had occurred, how much trust, understanding and knowledge they showed they failed to show and understand when I did bring up the issues, confirmed for me that it was safe to keep moving and not continue to engage them.

    I discovered, as I particpated here and as these ladies quietly prayed for me, as well as participants on this blog, that I didn’t need to seek reconciliation with them. That I only needed to move towards forgiveness… when I was ready… in my own timing. It would have been detrimental to my healing and my mental and emotional health to continue to engage them because it goes deeper than apologies and reconciliation. It all goes back to the core beliefs and doctrine. It took me awhile to connect those things. But for them, their core doctrine and beliefs are at the heart of the matter, and how they deal wtih people on a personal heart level all stem from those beliefs. You will find their ability to put the person ABOVE religiousity, doctrine, theological correctness, to be severely lacking.

    I knew that people who were incapable of seeing beyond those things, and being willing to put them aside and see me as a human, bearing a heart of flesh, and allowing their own heart to come through was almost near impossible. I didn’t think this because of the events surrounding my immediate departure–although that eventually confirmed my beliefs. But I knew this because I had been watching for two years their interactions with others and myself. I recalled words, deeds, thoughts and actions. I pulled together all the conversations I had, the existing problems others had before I had even attended that church–and I realized that this longstanding problem, this issue that was as deep as it was wide, was beyond me and what I could do–although I did try.

    But it was no altar I could sacrifice myself upon any longer. So I left and I never looked back. God didn’t need reconiiliation or further talks with them to heal me. He used the women and men here who have spoken to me personally, and those who pray for me even when I dont know it, to bring about that healing. It happened swiftly. Much more swiftly than I had imagined. But through many truths and experiences others have shared here and allowing me to share mine, I had begun healing. I still am. But I am not the woman I was this time last year and praise God for that.

    Today I trust God even more… I just distrust cultural Christianity a whole lot less. And if we order our idols, then I’d say that’s about right. Nothing should share that altar with the Lord.

    Like Deb said, reconcile to what? These people are poisonous and unhealthy and reconiliation with them is less likely to produce any real good in your life. In my opinion, what you need are the prayers and support of those around you, today, who love you today, who will lift you up in prayer today, and who will allow you spill your heart for whatever is in it today.

    You will soon forget those people…those relationships…those nuances in a way that you will feel free and joyful… Trust me. It will come.

  68. Sophia–

    55,000 hits??? OMG… But remember the day you were sad because noone was reading your blog and hearing your story? I understand, though, that the attacks and weightiness of this all is very HEAVY. But they ARE hearing you and you HAVE been heard. I think that is amazing!! In just two months. Wow. BTW: I read a few posts on your blog today ; )

    I think I remember telling you to just build it and they will come. Man, oh man! Did they come.

  69. RE: Eagle on Mon, Mar 05 2012 at 11:14 pm:

    Well, you did after all quip once that Piper was Driscoll’s ***** (prudish editor). And it’s no wonder really, social scientists have long known that buggery is common in testosterone saturated patriarchal cultures. It is employed both figuratively and literally as a means of domination and control. It is interesting to note also that baboon troops on the African veldt display the same behaviour.

  70. Sophia
    i am on a short trip. But, my guess is that a meeting could lead to even more difficult feelings. I think the best thing is to wait and see how much they truly care about you. Remember, God cared about you so much that He sent His Son. They could at least send a Hallmark card. 🙂

  71. doubtful
    You know, i had never thought about that before. I plan to do some reading on the subject. I have a sinking feeling that you are correct

  72. “Remember, God cared about you so much that He sent His Son. They could at least send a Hallmark card.”

    Where is the LOVE LOVE LOVE button?! Who thought of that, you or Dr. Jon?

  73. Trina
    Do not forget, Jesus was willing to forgive anyone who came to Him. But some people refuse to do so. Forgiveness is two sided. The willingness of the offended party(in this case, you) and the proactive seeking of that forgiveness (in this case, your church). So your posture of being willing to offer forgiveness is excellent. Wonder where those in your former church are?

  74. OMG! THIS!!! Laughing hysterically!

    “Remember, God cared about you so much that He sent His Son. They could at least send a Hallmark card.”

  75. Until MH says We were wrong, we are sorry and would like reconcilation, I would say it is more public damage control, finding out who some of the anonymous people are and semi-apology. I would tell them this is not good enough.

  76. Deb/Bridget/Db and others
    I can’t get onto SGM Survivors. I’ve tried for 2 hours. Is it the dang hotel internet or is something going on?

  77. Trina,

    Thank you so much for writing that! It really really helps. 55,000 between my blog and my husband’s blog. My life verse has been psalm 107…Let the redeemed of the lord tell their story…And that I did. I am just going to take a breather and spend a few days really seeking the Lord on this and praying about what next. Recently I read Nehemiah (which I don’t think I have ever paid much attention to)…you should read it again…complete with smear campaigns and letters because some people did not want to see the walls of Jerusalem rebuilt.

  78. Dee— You like commericals. I like songs…

    They could put it in a love song, as Beyonce would suggest:

    “Say you love me! Say you love me! Well, put it in a love song!”

  79. Dee,

    You crack me up…but sadly so true. Still complete silence, except for the two conversations I have initiated.

    At least Jesus always “leaves the light on for you” hahahaha

  80. They still do not recognize the hurt and damgage they(MH) has caused. They still don’t get it. Whenever there is a but in a sentence it usually means ‘disregard any words we have said before the words but…’

  81. Sophia—

    I will check out Nehemiah. Yes, take a breather, gal! It’s really okay. I took months off the blogs and stopped reading and just breathed. Ask the girls here, they know. But I came back when I was ready. We’ll be here when you’re ready. ; )

  82. Sophia–

    I sure will! and about those mean emails…delete them all. Da-lete!!! If people want to write negative comments or bash you, they should at least be willing to have the chutzpah to do it live… in public… on your blog.

    “Oh so you wanna be heard? Well, you can… on my blog.” BAM!

  83. Dee: I get a 500 internal server message on the SGM survivor site. It is not the hotel internet.

  84. Dee–

    Thank you. I forgot about that other side of forgiveness. It took awhile for me to understand that forgiveness didn’t mean always reconiciliation.

  85. Sophia–

    Man! I love LOVE Turning Tables by Adele! I was just singing that this afternoon. hehehehe

  86. Debbie–

    I think some of these church relationships are like abusive husbands. Run. Don’t walk. And don’t go back. And don’t answer his calls. And just. Dont. Dont. Dont.

  87. … and DONT get in another relationshiop right away. leanr how to be single for awhile. learn what went wrong. learn who you are… what you want… what you believe… learn how to recognize healthy relationships.. then consider… consider some more… and proceed slowly… carefully… watchfully…

  88. Sophia
    You must post Adele’s song on your blog. Just do a simple post-say this is your response to Mars Hill Awesome!

  89. Debbie, Trina
    Thanks. I always worry about bloggers who bravely stick their necks out. I hope they are OK

  90. Sophia–

    I responded to anonymous… Edit with your heart’s desire. I may need it. Jus’ sayin’

  91. “Like Deb said, reconcile to what? These people are poisonous and unhealthy and reconiliation with them is less likely to produce any real good in your life. ”

    I wish more people understood this. These are people you warn about…not meet with again. If they want to repent, they can get out of ministry, go away and seek true repentence for their misuse of scripture and huring others….. outside of ministry.

    The fact they don’t do that is a clue.

    If people ask why you did not meet, just say you don’t meet with wolves. It isn’t wise.

  92. Sophia–

    OR “It’s Time to Say Goodbye”….

    I love it when she pauses right before she says… “…to turning tables….”

  93. WTH: “I know this may seem scandalous to folks but consider meeting with campus pastors if you’re a former MH member. Really.”

    Really?
    That sounds like telling the rape victim, “Consider meeting with the guys who raped you.”

    WTH: “When I stopped being a member, I shared my concerns at length with my campus pastor.”

    And that did a lot of good, didn’t it?
    From all reports, there have only been more wounded sheep added to the pile since you left.

  94. What a joke. Statements like these from the “church” are what you get when you have a PR person on staff. I still can’t get over that. If you have to have a PR person on staff, then something is definitely amiss in your “church.”

  95. anon, the people I’ve known who have actually been raped have not generally described their negative experiences at MH as like being raped.

  96. WTH – I think Anon’s point is valid – very much so, in fact.

    You are taking it a little too literally.

    When I was booted from That Church (had no warning it was coming), I felt like I’d been summarily divorced without being given any reason.

    I lost all of my friends.

    It was devastating, so… please understand that there probably *are* people who feel as violated as if they had been raped.

  97. Alan Let’s sanctify the position. The pastor of PR. How did Jesus and the Apostles convert the world without one.

  98. Numo/WTH:

    I definitely understand the feeling of divorce and loss of family. Therefore, it’s not a stretch to think that there are those who have felt violated in the worst of ways. Many actions or sins against people may elicit the same very deep emotions, even if the physical acts were different.

    It’s devastating to be in a church who thinks they model the 9 Marks of a healthy church;by George, they wrote the book! But then to involve ones life in such a church where relationships and groupthink and community closely resembles that of a cult including unhealthy transparency and allowed intrusions into ones thughts and private lives, and then to abruptly have those relationships and all that it implies and is modeled to you to be cut off–well, I’m sure there aree many feelings associated with rape and divorce that depending on the experience and severity, are common in both types of people who have suffered in these situations.

  99. Trina – yes indeed. : (

    I’m sure there aree many feelings associated with rape and divorce that depending on the experience and severity, are common in both types of people who have suffered in these situations.

  100. WTH
    I don’t think that was what Anon was implying. there are people who have been so hurt that meeting with people who have the capacity to still hurt you is not wise. The statement by the pastors left open that they believed there were two sides to this. True reconciliation is one sided. You go to a person and deal with your part of the problem. This “Call to Reconciliation” was not pure. The potential for pain is still there.

    I want to see radical brokenness on the part of these pastors. A willingness to bear the burden of the process, not putting themselves up as the offended party but freely giving themselves like Jesus is necessary. But, do they know of this sacrificial love? Can they show it themselves? Time will tell.I still don’t see it in their leader so it is difficult to imagine that his deputies have such love.

  101. Numo–

    I remember reading many of the books and articles on people who had entire families or a child caught up in cults… People who had left… Th devastation… The control… Trying to live apart from it all… Relearn how to live their own lives… I mean some of this stuff is DEEP! There are feelings and experiences involved that are unfathomable.

  102. Numo
    I am so sorry for what the church did to you. They lost a vital member of the body. You have so much to share and give. They lost, plain and simple.

  103. WTH–

    People who have been abused should rarely give an abuser an opportunity to sit down and lead a discussion with them. It should not be done apart from one being present to protect the abused. The only thing the abuser or transgressors In the situation is apologizing for what happened and seeking forgiveness. No counsel. No instructions. And the abused should be leading the discussion and laying out all the boundaries. Of the transgressors do not agree, then they arent willing to simply accept responsibility. But this all can only happen if they acknowledge the sins they are accused of. It doesn’t require the abused to subject oneself to a situation that may cause further damage. An email, letter and other forms of communication are sufficient as well. They also don’t have to have every detail before they can say they’re truly sorry.

    People were requiring me to lay out every detail about my bad church experience so that thy could determine wheher my hurt was justified. The fact that they were Ill equipped to begin to understand my issues only made it worse for me and made me resent ever knowing them. It did NOT move us toward reconciliation.

  104. I can appreciate that analogies are used to express feelings. I am concerned that since MH has glibly used victimized women as a cover to not discuss things in public that seizing the rape analogy to justify not meeting with anyone at MH is ultimately employing the same rhetorical device. Knowing actual sexual abuse victims it just makes me queasy to see both sides so readily seize on that.

  105. If u hit my car, we can meet face to face to resolve the issue. If we have a disagreement but ideas dropped, we can also meet face to face to resolve it. If you raped my kid, or if you are emotionally abusive and controlling, you have no access outside of a professional who will direct the conversation of which you have boundaries that you have agreed to beforehand. If not on those terms, then no face to face reconciliation will be made.

  106. I would suggest that people who do consider meeting do so only under these circumstances:
    1) it’s not at a MH site
    2) there’s a witness and that the pastor has to suck it up and admit one is needed
    3) the pastor should keep in mind that a defense of actions is not the point of the meeting and that assessing the theological soundness of a former member is not on the table
    4) the pastor should also be aware that meeting privately does not oblige the former member to not go to the press or media should they consider it necessary. Seeing as Driscoll felt free to ramble about former members in Reformission Rev what’s good for the goose will be good for the gander.

  107. But WTH! One party has a right to and is justified in doing so. The other is not! That doesn’t take away someone’s right to legitimately use this reason, which essentially you are saying.

    MH is hiding behind the excuse of victimizing women, while those who have been seriously harmed are using their rights as receivers of this abuse to protect themselves..

    Surely, if these women at MH were truly victims of sexual predators and abuse AGAINST THEIR OWN WILL, then MH should have filed police reports to report a CRIME.

  108. Let’s remember that chicks falling for some smooth Don Draper character left and right does not equal sexual abuse… It just makes them willing.

  109. Well then we will just disagree, because I believe a victim in such a circumstance has EVERY right to! There. Done. Let’s move along.

  110. “MH is hiding behind the excuse of victimizing women…”

    The last few posts are morbidly amusing, I must say. It seems that the MH spinmeisters are controlling the rhetoric, even the rhetoric on TWW. I would bet my paycheck if there is but a small handful of cases that have anything to do with serial abusers of women being disciplined by the Mars Hill leadership.

    To anyone with a smidgen of discernment, that PR piece, the “Call for Reconciliation” is loaded with code words. Judging by the plethora of recorded sermons and other pronouncements emanating from the top of the organizational pyramid, most of the cases needing “discipline” involve members who are “sinning through questioning” or some such other nonsense. There is nothing akin to godly or Biblical church discipline. And their statement that they “don’t know” who the wounded are, is Bravo Sierra.

  111. Wenatchee, I think you’ve hit on something with your terms and conditions (much as Sophie decided that her reconciliation would have to employ terms and conditions).

    My feeling is that pastors/leaders who were not genuinely ready for reconciliation, would balk at such terms, while the ones who’d put up with it are probably more aware of the legitimacy of the victim’s complaints. Putting terms and conditions on the reconciliation process could be a good way to separate out the genuine offers from the PR moves. I hope.

    The Observer

  112. Anon
    TWW has featured Sophia (Marshillrefuge), Kevin Potts, and Bent Myers. None of these stories involved womanizing. Our discussion with Sophia today was about her decision not to respond to MH. To what rhetoric here were you referring?

  113. Well, everyone, we will soon find out the intent of MH….The bravest person who has shared on my blog (NO, not me) responded on the form with the conditions I outlined in my post (pretty much the same one’s WTH mentioned above). Said brave person has already secured a former pastor from childhood church to attend such meetings. So, we will see.

  114. And about the rape analogy…

    I was sexually assaulted when I was 16. Later I spoke out to it to some friends, and it got back to the guy. I did not run into this guy until my 25th birthday. He proceeded to look at me with disgust and disdain, and call me a f$^#%n b**ch, on the street, in public.

    Had this person contacted me wanting to repent, I would have required a third party, it would have been on my terms, in a public place, and I would have retained the freedom to discuss it/write about it/ whatever. I would not have trusted him had he bid me to come meet with him so we could go over the details of the assault, on his turf, alone, with him as the authority figure and judge.

    It is called WISDOM, DISCERNMENT, and not being the dog that goes back for another smack on the nose.

    Sorry, the rape term struck a chord. Boy I am just raw today 🙂

  115. Casting Crowns has a new album out entitled “Come To The Wall”. In the song “Jesus Friend of Sinners” there is a line “break our hearts for what breaks yours.” Sophia my heart broke today reading your comment.

  116. Debbie,

    Thank you…I just think that abuse is abuse…some types more horrible than other types, but horrible nonetheless…and there are certain ways you must take care of yourself.

    I didn’t mean to shut down discussion on this post! I hope everyone is just on the east coast and sleeping!

  117. The article on church discipline that Mars Hill posted after Andrew’s story came out defines reconciliation as follows:

    “In the Bible reconciliation is the word used to refer to the process by which God changes human beings and adjusts them to the standard of his perfect character.”

    So when Mars Hill says they want reconciliation with people, they do not mean the commonly used understanding of the word. They mean that they want the church member to be “adjusted” to “the standard of [God’s] perfect character”, i.e. to the standard Mars Hill prescribes. There’s no compromise or mutuality in Mars Hill’s concept of reconciliation–just people submitting to Mars Hill’s alleged authority. Mars Hill is probably deliberately exploiting this difference in definitions of “reconciliation” to make it look like they’re being much more conciliatory than they are.

  118. Sophia, having survived a wide range of abuses, including sexual, I agree that at the heart of it, abuse is abuse. It is the attempt to assert power and control over another with no regard for their will or welfare. Many churches, including Mars Hill, fit that description – and there is only one way to deal with it. Get away and tell others.

    {{HUG}}

    In thinking about it, having a ‘reconciliation’ sit-down with my former pastor and with my sexual abuser fills me with about equal amounts of revulsion.

    Violation is violation – and as horrible as sexual abuse is (and it is very horrible), there is something so insidious about someone who is supposed to have you spiritual best interests in mind using that position to manipulate and control for their own ego boost. There are those who add to this the crime of manipulating vulnerable female members who come to them for marriage counseling into sleeping with them. There is a word for what these ‘pastors’ do – it starts with ‘mind-‘, but out of deference to blog etiquette, I’ll leave it at that…

  119. Sophia-

    One of my favorite hymns starts “I heard the voice of Jesus say, Come unto me and rest…Lay down thou wary one, lay down, thy head upon My breast… I came to Jesus as I was, weary and worn and sad…I found in Him a resting place, and He has made me glad.”

    May the Lord wash over you again and again and again with His deep, comforting love.

  120. Anon (3/6/12 @ 8:15 pm)
    “The last few posts are morbidly amusing, I must say. It seems that the MH spinmeisters are controlling the rhetoric, even the rhetoric on TWW.”

    MH controlling TWW? Now that is HILARIOUS!!!

  121. all,

    you are right as rain. this ‘call for reconciliation’ sounds like another attempt by mars hill to pr to the world that they are actually the sane and competent ones in the disagreement/miscommunication. what a bunch of passive agressive, insecure, condecending bullies! they are still trying to talk down to anyone who dares disagree with them as either not as informed, educated and compassionate as they are or just trouble makers and miscreants (heavy on the ‘ants’ compared to them)

    In Christ

  122. kiselileia
    Thank you for the interesting insight into what MH might mean by reconciliation. “They mean that they want the church member to be “adjusted” to “the standard of [God’s] perfect character”, i.e. to the standard Mars Hill prescribes.” I will be interested if they speak to the person from marshillrefuge that has agreed to meet with them with her childhood pastor in tow. Sounds to me like MH may have to do bit of adjusting.

  123. Sophia
    I was sleeping when you wrote your comment. I am sorry for the abuse that you have suffered.You are taking your pain and applying to doing good. Please keep us informed about the person you know who has decided to contact MH.We will be watching the MH response very carefully.

  124. michael

    You said “what a bunch of passive agressive, insecure, condecending bullies!” They merely mimic their leader. This is why I am flummoxed by the amount of support Driscoll gets from Piper and the seminary presidents They will look back at this, one day, with embarrassment. As for the word “compassionate.” That is NOT the first word I think of when I think of Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll. May God break their hearts for the people who cross their paths.

  125. Dee:

    I shudder to think what kind of marriage advice MD will offer! What qualifies him to give this “advice.”

  126. “So when Mars Hill says they want reconciliation with people, they do not mean the commonly used understanding of the word. They mean that they want the church member to be “adjusted” to “the standard of [God’s] perfect character”, i.e. to the standard Mars Hill prescribes. There’s no compromise or mutuality in Mars Hill’s concept of reconciliation–just people submitting to Mars Hill’s alleged authority. Mars Hill is probably deliberately exploiting this difference in definitions of “reconciliation” to make it look like they’re being much more conciliatory than they are.”

    This is an excellent point. How can you trust people who have their own definitions of commonly understood terms? Even basic words like “Grace” or “Humility” are redefined by these hirlings/wolves. And he who defines, wins.

    Not only that but even their definition of the “priesthood” is different in giving leaders authority and they can only be rebuked by other same level authorities. It is a rigged game they play.

    One would have to have agreement on terminology before one dared sit down to discuss anything!

  127. Mot: Well, nothing really. 20 years of marriage doesn’t make one an expert, especially since Mark and Grace were fumbling through theirs for the first decade (as their book describes).

    “Real Marriage” isn’t a suitable guide for everyone. In fact I don’t think it’s a suitable guide for couples going through Mark and Grace’s type of problems, because I found that the overarching tone of the Sex section was: “Wives, submit sexually to your husbands.”

  128. “Real Marriage” isn’t a suitable guide for everyone. In fact I don’t think it’s a suitable guide for couples going through Mark and Grace’s type of problems, because I found that the overarching tone of the Sex section was: “Wives, submit sexually to your husbands.”

    “…as if you were in a Saudi harem.”

  129. <i.Not only that but even their definition of the “priesthood” is different in giving leaders authority and they can only be rebuked by other same level authorities. — Anon1

    And none of God’s Anointed (TM) will ever acknowledge anyone else as the same level authorities…

  130. Anon1
    Agreed-the meaning of a term is everything. And in the past few years, experience has taught me that people mean different things when the use a word. Take the word “Christian.” It can mean everything under the sun. A relative once used it in reference to himself. I said that he never went to church never read the Bible, never prayed and had a lifestyle that seemed in contradiction to many mandates of Scripture. His response? “Well, I am not Jewish so I must be Christian.”

  131. Sorry, the rape term struck a chord. Boy I am just raw today — Sophia

    Which does tangentially hark back to MD’s hypermasculine attitude.

    For is not rape the Ultimate level of “Woman, Submit!”?

  132. Well, you did after all quip once that Piper was Driscoll’s ***** (prudish editor). And it’s no wonder really, social scientists have long known that buggery is common in testosterone saturated patriarchal cultures. — Muff Potter

    Any male-supremacist culture is going to feel a strong pull in the direction of male homoerotica. How else can you have sex with another PERSON instead of a dumb animal (i.e. (ugh) woman)? As one ancient male-supremacist culture put it, “Men for love, Women for breeding stock, Boys for pleasure.”

    And when a male-supremacist culture also has a taboo against homosexuality, there will be some pretty crazy levels of tension and crazier ways to resolve that tension and/or end run around that taboo.

    It is employed both figuratively and literally as a means of domination and control. — Muff Potter

    This is called “Making a woman out of him.” In prison rape, only the rape victim is Teh Fag; the rapist is More Of A Man because He Made a Woman out of him.

    In an essay lost in the mists of the Web, radio-host Dennis Prager said that Torah redefined sex between husband-and-wife, while surrounding peoples defined sex as between penetrator (top) and penetrated (bottom).

  133. “The subtitle of the book should be “My problems are Grace’s fault.””

    LOL!!! So true!!!! Amazing so few people see this.

    A friend of mine in a seeker mega type church called me a few months ago just steaming mad. Seems the seeker pastor was using his wife in a sermon illustration. His story went like this: she did not want to marry a pastor because of all the hardship it would entail (never mind he is a 6 figure income guy) and they went around and around about this while dating. She did not want him to be a pastor but “God worked on her until she saw the light and she should support me”. There is more in detail about it but you get the drift.

    Why was my friend furious? Because the whole illustration was designed to edify the pastor (hardship, etc) using his wife. She was not the spiritual one. He was. God had to work on her….not me. That sort of thing.

    It seems to be happening in other places as well just not to the extent of Driscoll sharing his wife’s sexual past. But my friend has been coming to my church for the last few months and commented last Sunday that my pastor never mentions his wife at all in sermons. (She is usually sitting in the choir) Just the bible and he might make analogies to things in the world but never uses his family. She thinks that is gentlemanly and appropriate. I have to agree. After all, it is not about him, is it?

  134. One hallmark was ranting about how bad psychotherapy is (I really was shocked when the guy in the pulpit started ranting about that) as well as a focus on a scary, ultimately (almost) unknowable God – super-OT. — Numo

    I’d probably have used the term “Al’lah’u Akbar” instead of “super-OT”. That is one of the core differences between Islam and Christianity re the nature of God.

  135. “Any male-supremacist culture is going to feel a strong pull in the direction of male homoerotica. How else can you have sex with another PERSON instead of a dumb animal (i.e. (ugh) woman)? As one ancient male-supremacist culture put it, “Men for love, Women for breeding stock, Boys for pleasure.””

    Bingo! This is what the patriarchy/comp people miss when they affirm “masculine Christianity”. Historically, Patriarchal cultures have been very homoerotic. It was the shock of those who went into Afghanistan to find such things as “having a boy” a normal thing. They need to read more history. It is the focus of patriarchal thinking to unconsciously and even unwittingly think less of women in terms of intellectual ability.

  136. HUG–

    That convo between you and Muff went totally over my head. I had to go Google buggery. Ummmm… whoa! This might not be the place to discuss it, I’m not sure. But I wonder why is this so? Why does male-supremacist culture create this common pull towards homoerotica? Do you see this in Driscoll’s church or in churches like his?

    I ask this, because myself, along with some other women, were really skeptical that some of the men we knew who were racing to the altar were actually attracted to other men. And the queues adn clues weren’t exactly subtle either.

  137. Anon1–

    I have always thought it was cruel of him to share his wife’s sexual past. Shouldn’t that have been something that she chose to share, one-on-one, with others whom her past might help them understand certain issues. I coudln’t imagine the entire church knowing that I slept with other men before I was married, but also the man I happened to marry too. Not that I would be ashamed of that past, but the ENTIRE church knowing that? That’s crazy.

    I think in the same vein, women in my past church were very proud to go around and tell people they were virgins. Although I was in the same “predicament” (LOL), I know, I know… But stay with me here… I didn’t feel it was really anybody’s business. I can’t say it’s something that shoudl be a mark of “Pride” in a person, insasmuch as sexual conquests shouldn’t be. Sharing that with others who are very close to me is different. But sharing with others, en masse, what does or in my case, doesn’t, happen in my bedroom, is beyond the necessary scope of any conversation I’d have with members of my church. (Yet, I’m sharing it here with you, lol. BUt for a purpose to illustrate an important point).

    Virginity is so prized in the church, it’s no wonder why women lie about it. And I do feel bad now all the times where I thought I deserved more or better than the woman who wasn’t. Women who’ve had experience often deal wtih feeling less than, less valuable, less deserving. But the men dont’ have these issues, at all. Such a double standard. Yet, we can see that this tears Driscoll apart that his wife wasn’t pure when he married her. So much that he needed to tell everyone and make an example out of her. Yeah, he told the story to make it seem like he had to be the bigger one, the more Chrsitian one, to forgive her of it. But really, he’s not okay with it. Sex isimportant, it is special and it does mean a lot. But I think some Christians need to get over it and realize that having sex isn’t the end of hte world, even for most people, whether they are married or not.

    This is totally insanely funny, but I subscribe to Ms. Betty Bowers on FB, America’s Best Chrsitian (I think she’s agnostic). She posted yesterday: “Remember: If you never plan to marry, then all the sex you’re having isn’t premarital. #loopholes #outsmartingbusybodies”

    I was laughing hysterically. BTW: I dont condone premarital sex in most situations, but I can’t say I’m totally against it either depending on the context.

  138. Jeanette–

    If you’re reading, thank you for sharing your story. That was very courageous.

    Sophia–

    I hope that you are feeling much better today. I had to go to bed last night, but I did read your post. You didn’t shut down the conversation. The fact that I had to work in the morning did. hahaha

    MM–

    Your comforting words to Sophia also brought me much comfort and feeling of safety in Christ. Thank you for that!

  139. I have said this before and will say it again, but a key piece of information that demonstrates the problem with Driscoll is the claim to see visions of other people committing sexual sins.

    That claim is bizzare and not anything that resembles NT teaching.

    It is clearly false, and means that Driscoll is exaggerating (lying) for effect in a sermon, or that he really is mentally unstable.

    Christians are very fearful of making that call, probably because they think to do so limits God and His work in our lives.

    Plus, it gives the one who claims to have received such a “vision” a semi-divine status in the ears of his hearer, or at least an unusual contact with the divine that others do not have.

    That is the root of all of the problems at Mars Hill. The rest of what has happened is a natural result of that type thinking and belief system.

    I don’t know that Driscoll is capable of dealing with that claim. He probably won’t because he knows what an impact it would have on his ministry. But that, right there, reveals the true nature of the problem.

    The fact that Driscoll my get lots about the Gospel and biblical truth right, does not justify ignoring his claim to receive these type visions.

    I hope that this situation can be resolved with the least amount of damage to all concerned, as possible.

    But at this point, it does seem like damage control.

  140. Anonymous–

    I have often thought, what’s the difference between Driscoll and what he sees vs. a seer or diviner? Divination, as I understand it, was not supported in Scripture. Prophecies were not in this way. Driscoll reminds me more of the seer that Saul sought when he was loosing his mind, than any Prophet like Elijah or any other who brought words of comfort and encouragement to God’s people, and also at times, warnings to turn from their ways. But there was generally always a reminder that God loved them, and wanted them reconciled to himself.

  141. dee: Agreed. Very rarely does he ever fess up to wrongdoing in that book, the main one being where he says how he was boorish and harsh towards her, being “a husband she couldn’t trust in” (loose paraphrase). It took ten years for him to realise his monstrous attitude problem AND he didn’t come to this realisation on his own initiative. It was Grace and her decision to tell Mark about her past abuse that made him realise his ways.

    Then a couple chapters later he returns to the story of Grace not giving him as much sex as he wanted and then describes her as selfish. And that women should never do what Grace was doing, goodness no.

    I find it striking that during that whole decade he didn’t once consider that maybe her struggles with intimacy were because of an inner burden and that he should sit down and ask her about it in a sensitive, open way. You know, like she had thoughts and feelings and that her sex drive was far more complex than an On/Off switch that was ‘selfishly’ turned to Off. Nor does he seem to admit that his ‘men’s locker room’ attitude to sex was warped. Instead, by his own confessions, he was bitter and angry towards his wife for TEN WHOLE YEARS. Where was an attempt at forgiveness and compassion? If there was any? Instead, it seems, he was throwing himself a pity-party about how much he was sexually unsatisfied, how difficult life was for him because of this, and how mean Grace was for not sexing him like he wanted her to.

    I think Mark was the ‘Selfish Lover’ in their marriage, not Grace.

  142. Anonymous @ 11.20am: Mark calls this gift ‘discernment’. It’s not discernment at all. Discernment is being able to tell the difference between good and bad spirits. If Mark truly had this “gift”, he’d know that his pornovisions come from something dark, not from God.

  143. MM-

    Thank you for that!

    Trina-

    I do…you all must be praying for me, because I feel better and someone wonderful stepped forward to help with the blog…more on that later. Off to the dentist 🙂

  144. Sophia – Call me dumbstruck, if only because it was *very* gutsy of you to talk about what you’ve been through – and because it clearly shows how the analogy (rape) is extremely apt.

    I am really sorry that you’ve been through all of that… and glad you are doing OK now. (At least, that’s what I got from how you phrased your comment.)

  145. Anne:

    Discernment, as I understand it, involves the use of one’s mind. Sort of like “Wisdom.” It is a God-given gift.

    But in this case, Driscoll claims to have been given information by the Lord that no one else has. It’s secret knowledge. Not the use of mental faculties (even with divine help) to understand facts that everyone else is seeing.

    He is claiming to receive extra facts that no one else has. So it’s not discernment.

  146. Hi, Trina.

    Still reading? Your comment resonated with some of my thinking at present:

    –“I think in the same vein, women in my past church were very proud to go around and tell people they were virgins. …

    –Virginity is so prized in the church, it’s no wonder why women lie about it. …Sex is important, it is special and it does mean a lot. But I think some Christians need to get over it and realize that having sex isn’t the end of hte world, even for most people, whether they are married or not.

    –…Ms. Betty Bowers on FB, America’s Best Chrsitian …“Remember: If you never plan to marry, then all the sex you’re having isn’t premarital. #loopholes #outsmartingbusybodies”

    *****

    First of all, love the “loopholes for outsmarting busybodies” idea.

    Words like “marriage”, “sex”, and all forms and combinations of the two are such lightning rods in culural christianity. Very charged. To the point that people go into some kind of automaton mode, flicking off the intelligent reasoning switch.

    I think the hyper focus on “marriage” isn’t really thought out all that well. I love marriage, the idea of marriage, the experience of marriage, the potentially stable structure of marriage, etc. But in christian culture, “marriage” = formal ceremony. To heck with commitment — no ceremony, sorry you’re not married.

    So, christian culture will recognize “marriage” when the the relationship has been “formalized” in a ceremony — could be a muslim, hindu, or tamil ceremony. Could be one at the courthouse. MAYBE even Vegas.

    A relationship formalized under the auspices of a religion that purportedly is evil and hell-bent is recognized, but a relationship built on commitment alone doesn’t count.

    So, a couple are in love. They have committed their lives to each other. They mean it, as much as any couple can (prior to having that commitment put to the test through weathering storms of life yet to come). A day or two before the wedding ceremony, they have sex. And this is sin??? It is a sin because some man in a black suit hasn’t pronounced some words over them yet (which they probably won’t remember anyway)?

    Why does commitment require ceremony to be authenticated? Or else anything physical by gradations is sin, sinnier, sinniest?

  147. There’s actually a second big problem with “I see things”, nearly everything in that clip involves things derived from the methodology of recovered memory therapy techniques that have been debunked as of decades ago. I blogged about that at considerable length at my own blog and make reference to research that has shown recovered memory methodology is junk. If Driscoll were intending to not uncritically import ideas from pop psychology or methods debunked within the social sciences and brain research as of twenty years ago he failed. Even the dream he considered a revelation about Grace is explicable as a case of Ecclesiastes 5, “As a dream comes with many cares … .” There are more prosaic explanations for why he sees things.

  148. Elastigirl–

    I’m still here, friend. Yeah, boy do I see your point. I never thought about this: “A relationship formalized under the auspices of a religion that purportedly is evil and hell-bent is recognized, but a relationship built on commitment alone doesn’t count.” (I think I am misusing the colon there. That might need to be a comma or semicolon? Duke! Where are you girls? Is that correct?)

    I do commitment is ultimately of the heart and made before God as a promise, but yet, not one that we can NEVER get out of as many evangelicals try to force us to think. I do value marriage, but not above all things. I value marriage in the way that I value anything special and considerable for a person’s life. I only value God above all things.

    I know many sad commitments made in haste, and because she/he is so godly; serves well; is spoken highly of; is solid in their theology. We’ve had these discussions here many times to know that while we all value marriage, we know that doesn’t equal an instantly good successful one.

    I wouldn’t suggest for one to sleep around before marriage, because no matter how tough you think you are, if we have been designed by The Creator in a specific way, where sex does matter mentally, physically and affects the quality of our lives, then it is VERY important and should not be taken lightly, and should really be considered a matter of waiting if there is no commitment.

    But Christian culture wants to regulate the way that everyone loves. I can vote against gay marriage, but I can’t stop a gay couple from committing to each other in their hearts and living in such a way that honors the love they have between each other. I can vote for them to not have any legal rights and ownership of property of the other, recognition in health insurance and other things. But I really can’t stop them from loving each other, can I? And I really can’t stop them from holding hands and kissing in public, and other things that go on? So I just don’t see the point. I’ll still have to explain homosexuality to my kids whether we allow homosexual couples to marry or not. And I’ll still have to explain cohabitation and non-marital sex to my kids, whether people choose to get married or not.

    There are many other reasons why people take issue with this, and that’s a generic and very broad stroke to say what I think about it. But I see what you mean. For those reasons, I’ve learned to judge a lot less, and seek to understand people’s hearts more and why they choose and decide what they do. Will it ruin them to no end? Or will the marriage where two people decided to marry after 6 months of knowing each other be the thing that will bring ruin to their lives?

    I love all the ridiculous lies in Josh Harris’ books that he thought he knew about sex and what it would do to others. A lot of it isn’t true. But there is wisdom even in his stupidity.

    I say don’t sleep around. It’s not best for any person bearing a heart of flesh and a body prone to disease and death–as we all are. Some really bad things could happen to you. Do seek to know how God made you and realize that design will most likely follow through with you for the duration of your life. Make smart decisions about what involves your heart and your body–sex does have bi-products and consequences, some of them might not be the best for where you are in life.

    Ceremony has value, although it is not the officiating factor of two hearts becoming one. I think that is done by prayer and supplication, and acknowledgement that this you will do. A marriage license officiates legally and gives you rights that married people can benefit from. I would do it all traditionally, but because I like the tradition. If I disagreed with the tradition, I’d totally do it another way and wouldn’t care less.

  149. Numo,

    Thank you…I am okay now 🙂 I wouldn’t have commented so openly about it if I wasn’t. God is so good, if I were to tell you my whole testimony…man oh man 🙂

  150. WTH Your moniker along with the “recovered memory” reference recovered my memory of the Wenatchee sex abuse scandal, in which the most prominent victims were PASTOR Roby Roberson and his wife Connie, I recall the “memories” even included molestations by multiple church members and space aliens in the church sanctuary. On the night the Robersons were acquitted, Geraldo broadcast his recantation and apology:
    “I want to announce publicly that as a firm believer of the ‘Believe The Children’ movement of the 1980’s, that started with the McMartin trials in CA, I now am convinced that I was terribly wrong… and many innocent people were convicted and went to prison as a result….and I am equally positive (the) ‘Repressed Memory Therapy Movement’ is also a bunch of CRAP…” (Geraldo’s bathroom word, not aPostle Dave’s)
    As a Martian expert, do you think MH is using this stuff in their counseling? And does that have a bearing on their insistence on “discipline covenants” and techniques after someone has confessed something? Or maybe real Martians are conducting orgies in the sanctuary?

  151. Sophia
    Just began the former leader’s thoughts and read, “I was in leadership at MHC but am no longer a member as a result of some OTHER-WORLDLY (my caps) interactions and meetings with elders & pastors.” I guess my last supposition is correct, after all!  

  152. I’ m in a hospital waiting room trying to avoid laguna-ing out loud– people are looking at me funny.

  153. Other than Driscoll’s “I see things” clip I didn’t personally encounter much of it or hear a lot to suggest that people besides Driscoll did this stuff. But I did hear people complain about a particular pastor pushing with the assumption that there was more sexual abuse or abuse from a member getting counseling than actually happened. Attempts by then-members to explain that, no, that was really all there was got filtered through the confirmation bias of a counseling pastor who was sure there had to be more. So I don’t have a lot to go on myself but it wouldn’t surprise me if the meme of past sexual sin or sexual abuse being used as the explanation for everything a la Driscoll’s “I see things” had a trickle-down effect. But more people would need to come forward to verify whether or not this was common. I did begin to feel that the culture in MH had a large undercurrent of “We teach the Bible and can show you how your family and parents didn’t match up to what’s really biblical” even back six years ago. I don’t think people who are on the inside get that that’s how it plays but as a few people outside Mh with family inside have attested that does happen.

  154. You know, it occurs to me, if Andrew hadn’t so completely botched his attempt to keep anonymity by sharing as much as he did to Matthew Paul Turner I don’t know if even this PR olive branch would have been extended.

  155. Maybe Martians assaulted my computing device when it was young, but it repressed– or maybe I re-pressed da wrong keys.

  156. elastigirl,

    Good comment. I think also that American evangelicals have historically had an uneasy truce with humam sexuality. It must always find resolution only in black & white strictures alledgedly derived from Scripture, no gray allowed.

    I could never underestand why virginity is such a big deal in the three Abrahamic faiths. Then it became clear that it was a means to cement socio-economic alliances in patriarchal cultures that view women as chattels tasked with preserving an intact male line.

  157. Hi, Muff.

    Interesting thoughts. Stable relational units = stable society, better health, more successful individuals, happier individuals, assets versus liabilities. I think these are all instinctive things that naturally promote life itself. I see God as creator as being involved in it all, and promoting it himself.

    I guess I see “marriage” as the politicized name of it.

  158. So who else has noticed that Driscontinuity has been driscontinued? It can’t just be me.

  159. WTH – hmm. Their Twitter feed is gone, too.

    Dee – thanks so much for your kind words above. But I fear that a lot of former members of That Church have similar stories; also that the same applies to many who are still there.

    Such a shame – there were/are some wonderful people there, but those who’ve stayed are “blinded” (or should that be “blindered”” – like horses?) to what’s going on around them…

  160. elastigirl – very much agreed on everything you said!

    Sophia – I figured you wouldn’t post about it unless you were doing well, and I am so glad to hear about the offer of help. 🙂

  161. But in this case, Driscoll claims to have been given information by the Lord that no one else has. It’s secret knowledge. … He is claiming to receive extra facts that no one else has. So it’s not discernment. — Anonymous

    It is literally OCCULT GNOSIS!
    (“Secret Knowledge” in Greek!)

  162. Discernment is being able to tell the difference between good and bad spirits. If Mark truly had this “gift”, he’d know that his pornovisions come from something dark, not from God. — Anne

    Problem is, a lot of Christians will assume “something dark, not from God” automatically means DEMONS. Except for the outside source invoked, this is actually agreeing with Driscoll.

    It is more likely that these visions have no outside source (God or Devil), but is a part of Driscoll’s own “dark side” in sexual fantasy surfacing and being Spiritualized to sound acceptable coming from a Celebrity Preacher. Driscoll has shown symptoms of sexual obsession in other preaching and writing, including both ends of the alimentary canal. And obsession like that has to come out sometime.

  163. There’s actually a second big problem with “I see things”, nearly everything in that clip involves things derived from the methodology of recovered memory therapy techniques that have been debunked as of decades ago. — WTH

    As in False Memory Syndrome?

  164. HUG, I’d put it more like “usually overpaid authority figure fabricates memories (and taking your money while you’re in an emotionally unstable state)which you are then urged to accept as real that will damage your relationships with your loved ones” syndrome. 🙂

  165. Headless Unicorn Guy: When I wrote ‘from something dark’ I meant either demonic OR from a dark place inside of Driscoll i.e. his creepy sexual obsessions. Could be either, could be both.

  166. I know I’ve tried being cautiously optimistic but I do get why people would choose not to meet. My concern is that as I look at the facts that are available this moment didn’t come because people kept their anonymity and safety. Andrew made waves because he botched anonymity. Here in Seattle there’s more than just a handful of people who figured out who’s involved. And the more I consider how MH members and advocates have been slamming Andrew on places like Facebook the more it seems that MH needs to realize that the misinformation and airing dirty laundry to outsiders seems to have begun in them. Andrew found out because someone inside was upset at how things got handled.

    For a Calvinist church that talks about God’s providence and sovereignty they sure seem to be eager to avoid the possibility that God may be letting all this stuff happen to show them the consequences of their failures. It only took one guy, Achan, holding on to some treasure for that battle at Ai to be a failure, right?

  167. Perhaps a stand alone open letter to the Pastors of Mars Hill answering their call to reconciliation giving reasons why they don’t want to do it on MH’s terms signed by whoever doesn’t want to go to them.

    I know there would still be people who want to keep their identities hidden so I wouldn’t know what to do there. But a large response would be in order, if there really are that many people who have been hurt.

  168. Mara:

    Is it not amazing that folks have to remain anonymous as it relates to a church for fear of retribution.

  169. Dee, Deb, and anyone else who feels like answering,

    I’ve watched some of the Paul Dohse videos on New Calvinism that have been making the rounds in blog comments. Can anyone suggest further resources for investigating New Calvinism? I’m having a hard time finding different sources that all agree on exactly what New Calvinism is.

    I’m in an odd situation–I recently became part of a non-denominational church, and some of the leaders were heavily influenced by New Calvinism. i’m trying to discern how much my church is actually practicing what would be considered New Calvinism, since the leaders who were influenced by it did not set out to create a New Calvinist church but rather to create a non-denominational church.

    Anyway, it’s an odd situation for me. Some of what my church leaders believe in seems very appealing, but then I look at people like Driscoll and it’s just creep city.

    The Observer

  170. WTH – don’t you think that it’s MH that “botched anonymity” by letting that so-called “discipline contract” get plastered all over The City?

    A whole blot of people saw it – and likely knew who he was anyway, prior to seeing it… so who, exactly blew it?

    Not Andrew, I’m thinking.

    And even if the thing hadn’t been made public, it’s an outrage – sort of like a confession that people who were subject to the Stalinist purges were supposed to sign, except for the psychosexual element. (I don’t like Freud, yet in this case, a Freudian term is very apt; goes double for *many* of the statements MD makes that concern sex, masculinity, etc. I guess Freud was right about some people…)

  171. “whole lot” not “whole blot,” though I think the typo is kinda nifty…(Freudian slip, anyone?! ;))

  172. Mot @9:24

    It’s more than amazing – it is WRONG, WRONG, and WRONG! And the institutionalized church wonders why people are leaving in droves!

  173. Sad Observer –

    I have watched those videos and read some of Paul’s other writings. I have to admit that I find them a bit hard to understand. I get some of his points, but at times I’m not sure what point he is trying to make. He seems to be trying to make a case that the New Calvinism “started” with the Australian Forum folks. I think you can find these beliefs throughout church history, I don’t think they had their beginning in the last century. It would be wise to see “where” your current church leaders are getting their doctrine from and you should always be a Berean. Take what they teach and go to the scripture with it and read the context around the passages that they taught from. Don’t automatically believe their, or anyone’s, interpretation of those passages.

  174. numo, no argument there. That MH didn’t competently handle the Andrew situation seems more and more evident each time they’ve clarified their clarifications. “unclear communication” and “things didn’t get handled the way they should have” sure LOOK like confessions of imcompetence.

  175. sad observer
    Let me tell you how we learned about Calvinistas. We started reading their blogs over at the Gospel Coalition,CBMW, T4G and along with John Piper, Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney, etc. Then we started reading blogs that disagreed with them. It was a tedious process but we believe that we understand their thinking.

  176. ‘Where is the brokenness and where is the love?’ Indeed.

    Like so many of you, I’ve been deeply hurt by my experience in an authoritarian, patriarchal, neo-Calvinist church. The leaders’ lack of integrity and lack of love seems to be endemic in such circles. And, like so many of you, I’m extremely wary of the trappings of Christian culture (but I believe this is a good thing!).

    The song ‘Instead of a Show’ (by Jon Foreman) moves me. The lyrics paraphrase Amos 5: 21-24 and Isaiah 1: 13-18. Above the clamour of power-hungry church leaders (and their sycophants) is the still small voice of truth, calling us to brokenness and love.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrY1-gPM0KY

    ‘I hate all your show and pretence
    the hypocrisy of your praise
    the hypocrisy of your festivals
    I hate all your show

    Away with your noisy worship
    Away with your noisy hymns
    I stop up my ears when you’re singing ‘em
    I hate all your show

    Instead let there be a flood of justice
    An endless procession of righteous living, living
    Instead let there be a flood of justice
    Instead of a show

    Your eyes are closed when you’re praying
    you sing right along with the band
    you shine up your shoes for services
    but there’s blood on your hands

    You turned your back on the homeless
    and the ones that don’t fit in your plans
    quit playing religion games
    there’s blood on your hands

    Instead let there be a flood of justice
    An endless procession of righteous living, living
    Instead let there be a flood of justice
    Instead of a show
    I hate all your show


    Give love to the ones who can’t love at all
    Give hope to the ones who’ve got no hope at all
    Stand up for the ones who can’t stand at all
    I hate all your show’

    Yes, I wish that MH and other church leaders would heed that phrase – ‘quit playing religion games/there’s blood on your hands’.

    It makes me think of another song: Joe South’s 1969 hit ‘Games People Play’. It’s a bit before my time, but I’ve been blessed with a mother who moulded me into a ‘60s musical throwback 🙂

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAGyENr3_44&feature=related

    The first verse:

    ‘Oh the games people play now
    Every night and every day now
    Never meaning what they say now
    Never saying what they mean’

    And one of my FAVOURITE parts:

    ‘People walking up to you
    Singing glory hallelujah
    And they’re tryin to sock it to you
    In the name of the Lord’

  177. JJ

    Wow, thanks for the reminder.

    “People walking up to you
    Singing glory hallelujah
    And they’re tryin to sock it to you
    In the name of the Lord’”

    You know, around that time i had become a Christians and did not know that Christians can hurt each other terribly. Needless to say, I have learned much to the contrary.

    I will use that quote sometime this week as a quote. I also Love Jon Foreman’s song. I did not know of him before and i plan to listen to more of his music.

  178. Thank you JJ for sharing those great songs 🙂

    In 1969 when “The Games People Play” came out, I was just starting to explore Eastern philosophy. I never imagined that decades later I would be a Christian…. let alone one who now can’t stand the thought of being in a church 🙁

    How thankful I am that despite church leaders who misrepresent Him, Jesus is our unchanging resting place and we are safe in Him!

    Thank you TWW for being light in a dark place for us all.

  179. Dee-

    Sorry for the delayed response, but there are other things in life other than Internet blogs. I will start here & then get caught up with all your other posts. I do appreciate you allowing me to comment without censure, so kudos to you & Deb. I agree that women also should take responsibility for their sin, as should Andrew. I also agree that MH did not deal with several church discipline issues well.

    But where we differ is how we see the story. I think it’s important for people to see both sides of the story, which I assume may also be a reason you two write. I have strong opinions, so I write strongly. I do realize I am just a sinner saved by grace, but I won’t sit back and let you rant and rave about people and things you don’t know. If you are going to put others under the microscope don’t be surprised if you are then put under the same one.

  180. Joe,

    Since it’s important to look at both sides of the story (as you affirm in your comment), we’re looking forward to what you have to say about Jonna Petry’s testimony.

  181. Joe
    Must you sound so condescending? Of course there are other things in life that “Internet blogs.” Good night! We are so glad that you have very important things to attend to.

    As for putting us under the microscope, that has to be one of the silliest statements I have read on blogging in a long time. We have put our ideas out there for 3 years. We are subject to the market place of ideas far more than most people. And people disagree with us and even call us names all the time. If we are public, then we expect public responses. So should Mars Hill.

    As for ranting and raving, how often do you judge those in public-polticians, TV personalities, etc? We all do. And we know very little about everybody. In fact, this year we will vote on a President and I can assure that we don’t “know” in any significant way these candidates except for the reports we read in the media. Yet we make a judgment because these candidates ask us to make a judgment.So do some of these mega pastors. Look at us, look at me-i have the answer..What if we look and don’t like it? They can’t tell us what to see and what not to see.

    When you have a ministry headed by an individual who runs around appearing on the View, insulting a nation of Christians (Britain), speaking at conferences, etc., you bet we have the right and even the obligation to try to assess what is being said.

    And your “non-relationship” to Mars Hill sounds hollow. There is a reason that you are responding to this, calling Andrew an “adulterer” amongst other things. This appears to be a poorly orchestrated effort to attempt to discredit our opinion. Go for it. We stand behind those who have been hurt, which now include the Petrys. Wait, why did you just come back? Hmmmm…

    So knock yourself out, examining us under a microscope. We are two middle aged women who have lived traditional lives with long marriages and grown children.You will find our lives “unimportant and boring.” Isn’t it funny? God can use two women with no cool evangelical connections to look at the church. It sounds almost counterintuitive, kind of like picking uneducated fisherman to change the world.

  182. [mod insert] All comments are moderated. See:
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/about-us-the-basics/about-us-blog-rules-of-the-road/

    Ladies-

    I guess my comments are too different from the other views on this blog, so now I get to be moderated. 🙂 I appreciate that Deb’s answers are short & sweet. Dee, on the other hand must be a writer, cause her answers to every comment are long. I believe my microscope comment was a practical outworking of the golden rule. Honestly I am not trying to be disrespectful or condescending, so I am sorry to see you took my comment that way. It speaks to God’s character that he takes broken people and makes them new so that they can join in his mission to seek and save the lost. I’m never surprised that God uses people he fills with His Spirit.

    Your point on public discourse is well taken, but I would contend that things within the church should be dealt with differently, even if it is a public matter. I also don’t see attacking pastors as profitable for the kingdom of God. I know, I know his views are wrong, so someone must call him out. Well you can join the chorus of bloggers slinging mud at MH pastor. I don’t think you can make a biblical position to defend people outside of relationship with a pastor being right in calling that pastor out. Throughout the NT, those individuals other than Jesus – perfect son of God who knows the thoughts and hearts of men – didn’t call out other Christians that they were not in relationship with. Why? Because truth without love founded upon relationship does not lead to changed lives or encourage repentance. If that’s not the point what is the point?

    I understand your desire to defend those you feel have been wronged. I also feel compelled to defend pastors or others who I feel have also been wronged. That stated I never said MH dealt with Andrew rightly or that Andrew was the lone sinner, but I did want to highlight the other individuals in the situation (pastors, women) who were also wronged, yet not being defended. Here is the thing, these situations are not always clear cut black and white. If more than one sinful person is part of a situation, it’s likely more than one person sinned. That’s the nature of the world we live in. Go ahead defend the sinner of your choice, but don’t be surprised if me or someone else defend a different sinner. In the end we all need a savior, including the guy writing this comment.

    Just my thoughts, so take them or leave them.

  183. Joe
    ALL, I repeat, ALL comments are moderated on this blog due to an idiot troll who tried to cause serious problems. In fact, I find it a colossal waste of time having to preview every comment. So, this has NOTHING to do with you.

  184. Joe
    You can defend Mark Driscoll all you like.You are just one more in a chorus of those who “support” him. Not too many care about those who have been hurt by Driscoll. Funny, its OK to defend the pastor with whom you claim you do not have a relationship but you can’t critique said pastor.
    Secondly, teachers and leaders are held to a higher standard at least according to Scripture. Was this short enough for you?