Yikes! As someone who has raised 2 adult children, I would be appalled at such a description. Have these people no boundaries? Have they no respect for the secret work of the Holy Spirit in another’s soul? Yeah, I know, rhetorical questions …

But further, it just doesn’t make sense. What do you do to endlessly work through your sin? I have no idea what this could consist of that would actually be useful in any sense. I CAN’T conquer sin on my own, for myself or anyone else. IT DOESN’T WORK! What it does do is make people more and more helpless, and more and more subject to external control by those who claim to have the solution to their impossible dilemma — learned helplessness to the nth degree and utter vulnerability.

Once upon a time I knew somebody who said that the most loving thing he could do for anyone else was to show them their sin. When, further down the track, he tried to tell me that certain actions and attitudes of mine were sinful, I told him that I didn’t agree but was always open to being convicted by the Holy Spirit. All hell broke loose!!!

There is only one way to become less sinful, and that is total immersion in the love of God. Meanwhile, faith requires that we take our eyes off our sin and fix them firmly on Jesus, who has already forgiven it all 😀

“She was the first to bring correction and the first to bring encouragement and to point out change.”

Notice the point out change. This is one of the defining marks of a Calvinista. It is all about visible change. What happens if from childhood you begin walking with the Lord? Your visible change won’t be so dynamic as that of a drug addict who repents and believes. I experienced this in Campus Outreach and I am sure more authoritarian groups can attest to this as well. When it becomes all about those outward, visible changes, you get some seriously freaked out, despairing people. In my experience, you rely much more on your discipleship leader than God because that leader in some weird way holds the keys to heaven. If he or she sees growth, you can breath a sigh of relief but if he or she doesn’t see growth than uh oh you might not be saved. It is SCARY. Those poor daughters.

Deb, at the end of the day Mahaney is basically a revivalist akin to Charles Finney. BTW Finney was no Calvinist. But, none the less it all leads to the same place. It is pure revivalism. They have to make every service be as emotional as your weekend church retreat in high school where you rededicated your life to Christ… again. I can’t go down that road ever again. You start to look like a fool after your third or fourth baptism. It is for this reason that I really hesitate in using the word Reformed and SGM in the same sentence. Mahaney et al likes reformed theology (IMHO) for a couple of reasons. Reformed theology has the view of particular atonement (which groups within the reformed camp debate upon) However, this aspect of Reformed theology, if misapplied, can be a manipulative tool for certain authoritative leaders. Also, Reformed theology rightly states that we are DEAD in sin but, an authoritarian can use this as a way of brow beating someone instead of affirming the truth of this doctrine and then pointing sinners to Christ. I know, I know CJ talks about Jesus but when limited atonement is handled poorly, Jesus is only good if you are elect and the only way to REALLY know you are elect is if we can see fruit producing. Uh oh, what are we to do? That is where the heavy-handed discipling comes in. Good grief.

If you want to look at discipling, take a look at Jesus with the twelve. Those twelve were all over the map on what Jesus was supposedly doing. For three years they run around with him and Jesus tells them over and over what has to happen but those guys for waiting for that big glory moment when Jesus kicked butt Mark Driscoll style. They were so excited because it was going to be a blood bath and they were going to be the victors! Jesus kept telling them “Look I have to die.” Those twelve just kept on with their dreams of victory over the enemy. It took Jesus dying for them to realize oh yeah, everything he has been saying just happened. Huh. Thank goodness CJ wasn’t with those twelve. They would have been excommunicated. Especially Peter… I mean when someone tells you to get behind me Satan those are pretty strong words. I wonder what kind of discipline SGM could cook up for Peter?

WHATEVER BECAME OF SIN? Menninger 1974

Karl, since you wrote your famous tomb, even evangelicals have abandoned the problem of sin. It is so yesterday.

Curious actually, the death of sin as a problem in our culture. We have moved beyond sin; it’s quite passe even in conservative churches.

Maybe we’re not slouching towards Gomorrah?

note to Jimmy – Cain did NOT have the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT to assist him. And God actually showed him MERCY when he killed him brother, and Cain himself was not killed.

It’s all about the power that every believer has, through the Spirit working in him…

One question to be asked is: what was Carolyn Mahaney’s idea of ‘sin’? Little things? Big things? Because as much as God is aware of the sin in our lives, and it’s contrast to his image of us as perfect, he does not demand perfection. Pharisees demand perfection. Plus the patriarchal nature of SGM could mean that the daughters had to ‘work through’ something that wasn’t even sin.

No parent should be dwelling on what they think is wrong in their child. It’s incredibly spirit-crushing, especially if the parent can’t tell the difference between a child being naughty and a child being a child.

Wow, that was so disturbing! I’ve raised six daughters, and if I were putting them through that type of “self improvement” program, i don’t think they’d be as appreciative. They’d probably have told me to get out of their face, and ran off young with the first guy that came along! Are mine abnormally feisty, or are those girls unusually passive?

Are all three daughters very involved (enmeshed?) in SGM? Would it be acceptable in their family/friends, if they wanted to try a different “flavor” of Christianity? Just wondering.

Bridget,

The Mahamey daughters have been part of this ‘cult’ure their entire lives. However, recently there has been a strange turn of events as they and their husbands abandoned ship. Their dad stepped down for a short season and was recently reinstated as President of SGM.

Where do they go from here (after wreaking havoc in so many people’s lives)? Only God knows.

Carolyn was applying the full blown wrath of God to innocent little girls…

“Where you see a cute little baby, GOD SEES AN UTTERLY DEPRAVED SINNER!!!!!”
— Radio preacher from a LONG time ago

One: Since Menninger’s book pointing out how the culture had abandoned the concept of sin; the Evangelical Church has pretty much followed suit. It’s actually quite difficult to find messages where the pastor is preaching against sin. “Sin” truly appears to be now passe. I suspect the pendulum will swing back.

On a human note: sin is always crouching at our door. That hasn’t changed in 6000 years of human history. It is our curse and we are held accountable by God. Lest us not be deceived about our own sinfulness but neither let us grovel in it.

(My granddaddy use to say when asked what the preacher’s sermon was about: “SIN, he was agin’ it.” – True story)

DB: Because in patriarchal churches like SGM men are seen as naturally more holy than women? God forbid the Mahaneys reveal that they have a son who wouldn’t make a good ‘leader’ – that would be going against his gender role and their doctrine. So better to cover it up entirely.

The above is an honest guess. Am I right or wrong in any way? (I really should do more research on SGM and C.J.)

“Swing You Sinner!” a 1930’s Cartoon

Posted by TV Wartburg????? Way to go Ladies, right on target

(slide into the 2:10 minutes, the night time judgement)

http://vimeo.com/20137362

Or How About

“Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God ”

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2231398064352123138

or as given by a trained young child

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3054312425673505745

This style of discipleship, while not good for anyone, may be especially destructive if you happen to have a child who is a little more anxious or introspective than other children. I shudder to think how those types of kids would fare under the Mahaney tutelage. The Mahaneys are just lucky that their girls didn’t happen to be of that type.

I know because I was that kind of kid. I can’t even explain the depth of despair and fear I would have felt if my parents had come at me every day with the message that I was overcome with sin and needed to do XY and Z to become acceptable to God. It almost makes me sick just thinking about it.

hmmm… so what does one do for hours on end to “work through sin”?

Apologize to God and ask for forgiveness 10 times? 12 times? 30 times? What’s the correct number?

Or is it a matter of correct emotion to match the words uttered? Does one continue to “work through sin” until tears flow? Is the goal to arrive at some emotional point that matches the pathos of the words in some of the Psalms?

Or is it more procedural, confessing & apologizing to so & so, and then to so & so, and then this group, that group (relevance diminishing by degrees). And finally pulling out some kind of discipline contract, a new-and-improved “plan of redemption”.

It all kind of makes me think of that scene in “The DaVinci Code” where a monk endures self-flagellation with this whip-thing, flogging his own back (& this other mutilating device he wore on his leg), as he “worked through sin”. I think we all would agree going to such an extreme in focussing on sin / depravity / worthlessness is so not necessary, and so very counter-productive.

Me? I breath in God’s forgiveness. Then I exhale and move on.

I also understand I can learn to breath in (so to speak) Holy Spirit help (that very present help in time of need?) in making better choices.

I further understand that seeing myself tree-like & making a sincere effort at spiritual health, God will join me and there will be fruit (it’s not rocket science, nor is it unpredictable). Good fruit. Joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc..

There will always be bad fruit, too, but I think it’s very possible we overlook the good fruit by focussing on the bad fruit. And then to spend so much time & attention on the bad fruit??

For me, it is self-flatulation; my reaction to being fullofit.

But seriously, Jesus sacrificed Himself on the cross to deal with our sin nature, we don’t need to beat little girls over the head and keep them up into the night to get them to absorb our poisonous indwelling sin pseudotheology.

Really slow this time…. JESUS died on the CROSS so we are FORGIVEN and there is no value in TORTURING little CHILDREN for their misdeeds particularly when your egocentric husband is committing real actual sins like blackmailing Larry T.

Perhaps CM should go pull one of those all nighters on her husband but, nooooopeno-no he is a male and, by virtue of his teeeeneeee weeeeneeeey little small almost not there Y chromosome (thought I was thinking of something else, huh?) he gets to be an actual bag of bovine feces and get away with it.

And I, too, have a tenderhearted little daughter that would be absolutely crushed by the heavy hand of these legalists. Thank God I’m out of the place because it is my children who would have suffered the most.

But Miss Julianna has never been spanked, never been punished, rarely even spoken to and the few times she has, it has been me short-tempered and I had to offer an apology to her.

She is sweet and kind and has no enemies. She is tactful and encouraging and does kindnesses without prompting. She is a blessing to everyone near her. She is just one of those precious special people and God made her this way and has great things for her but she would have been crushed by the SGM system. They wouldn’nt know what to do with her because she is living proof that their man-made harsh system is fundamentally flawed.

Hey all!

I’ve been reading the blog for a while now and upon reading this post decided it’s time to jump into the conversation. I warn you up front that my comments will come from an opposing viewpoint of most that are offered here so my prayer up front, if I’m allowed to join in the online community, is that I can speak to you in love and without condescension.

Reading the post and then the comments I can’t help but take a completely different stand. I don’t see Carolyn unleashing the “full wrath of God” on her children as someone stated. I don’t see them being beaten down. In her comments about her mom I hear someone who greatly admires and respects the way she was raised. Is it too much to take the words of the daughters at face value? Could we not extend some grace to her? Growing up in a home that I imagine to be similar to the Mahaneys, with parents who helped me work through and battle my sins, I didn’t feel beaten down and my parents never allowed me to forget the grace of Christ that covers my sin. But that doesn’t mean they gave me license to make decisions as I please simply because God loved me.

P.S. I’ve been tracking the comments on the blog for a while and it’s somewhat difficult to follow with who is replying to who. May I recommend a new comment system that may help you filter through the comments and help commenters keep up with the conversation with out having to scroll up and down repeatedly?

Deb – Can you add some quick tags so we can quote people? I think simply the ability to quote would be incredibly helpful. It is usually pretty easy to add them on. If you need help, I’m sure my husband would be glad to give you a hand.

I cannot imagine that any child would benefit from relentless pursuit of faults and sin – though I think it would be less damaging to some.

But still – very damaging.

Period.

Danny… I have friends with kids in two of the D.C.-area SGM churches. I pray for their well-being, and for them to find a better place, because SGM is so cult-like and has propagated some incredibly damaging “theology” and practice. (Not to mention criminal activity – because I count the refusal to contact the police and child welfare re. abused children as criminal negligence.)

Hey Danny,

I read your comments with some interest. I totally get what you’re saying. I was a hyper sensitive kid, but, as you say, that didn’t necessarily stop my parents from confronting me about sin when it was necessary.

I think what I hear you saying is that the Bible and Christian tradition does instruct us to deal with sin when needed, so should we criticize parents for doing that? Should we assume that they’re going overboard just by recognizing sin? (am I reading you right? I hope so).

But here’s what some of the folks on this blog are concerned about. SGM already has a history of having an unhealthy view of sin–lending sin a focus that is beyond what the Bible teaches us to have, and thus damaging to people.

So, keep in mind that this is the lens through which we are looking at the Mahaney story. However, I do thank you for pointing out that we must always be aware of our lenses. This story by itself looks shady, but by itself, it could never prove anything about the spiritual health of the Mahaney family. It just takes on a darker tone when seen in context of what the Mahaneys usually stand for.

(Although I would argue that I don’t know many healthy Christian parents who *reguarly* spend hours upon hours talking about their kids’ sins. Maybe if a particular issue comes up, but that’s not going to be the overall tone of your life—I hope).

Once I watched the video, and heard the “spirit” of the girls’ voices, it came across differently than it did in print. It was clear to me that when she said her mother got up early to start the whole process over again, she wasn’t talking about rooting out sin, but the whole thing of being a mother, planning activities, etc.

I don’t know Carolyn M, I’ve never met her or heard or speak. I have no idea what went on in her home…and to be honest, neither do you. It comes across as a whole “gossipy mean girls episode” if you ask me to write a blog critiquing her parenting based on a short video from eight years ago. Mothers are indeed often the first to correct their children. How do you NOT know that this wasn’t handled with lots of hugs, kisses and love? Jimmy…or whoever said that it would be a different story if one of the daughters was on a blog complaining about their upbringing…he’s got a point. Just because you don’t like CJ Mahaney and SGM doesn’t mean you should be attacking’s someone’s mothering skills.

I think this whole post is unkind, unfair, and ungodly.

But again, that’s just me.

I watched the Phil Johnson clip awhile back of him complaining about female bloggers. I did not like the clip even though I like Phil. But no wonder he feels that way after seeing a post like this! I haven’t read Wade’s post about CJ yet, but I imagine he takes exception with CJ based on scripture and listening to CJ’s sermons and reading his writings. That’s the way constructive criticism should be handled.

Sotnam, I had similar experiences in SGM care groups. One time when I was sharing some thoughts on living by grace, a man in the group tried to put me in my place with very hostile and aggressive words, shooting me down point by point. I was shocked that no one in the group, not even my husband nor the group leader, would stand up to his horribly rude behavior and IMHO bad doctrine. So I calmly but firmly stood up to him and did not back down. I also sent him an email to clarify what I had been saying from the Bible, and asked him to be more of a gentleman in the future. (This was not the first offense.) He apologized several days later, but my own husband was absolutely livid that I would dare to correct a man.

I think what initially attracted me to the sin doctrine was the grace that (supposedly) accompanied it. It was taught that where sin is made great, grace is made greater. Grace was made greater. Through shame. Then it never became enough. Where can I make sin great. Well, we’re not seeing sin visibily so let’s question each other about our motives. Because there, surely, lies some form of sin. How exhausting. It took me years to learn to take what my husband said at face value without assigning some sort of sinful motive to him.

Dan,
We would have to carry this conversation into something other than blog comments to be able to do it justice. You’re not talking to a fan of works here. I live daily under the grace of Christ and Him doing for me what I can’t do for myself. That being said, quoting Paul’s letter to the Philippians and simultaneous ignoring all the commands Paul gave on turning away from sin and helping a brother to turn away from sin is a dangerous path. There’s ample instruction in the New Testament for examining life, confessing sin to others, rebuking others, reproving them, etc.

Don’t misread me here, I believe that all of Christ’s righteousness was imputed to me the moment I believed in Him. I don’t believe that means I walk around unaware of my sins or the ability of others to hold me accountable in not committing those sins.

Sad Observer,
I read your comment with relief! I was afraid that my first post here was going to be responded to with less than friendly response. Thanks for the tone of your post.

I’m aware of the suffering that many people on this blogs and others have walked through at the hands of SGM. I’m sympathetic to that and aware that spiritual abuse by leaders is something that needs to be addressed. My point in this particular post is that maybe the lenses are so jaded that some can’t here what the Mahaney daughters are actually saying. I’m sure that if you had a one on one with them they wouldn’t tell you their parents spent hour after hour after hour every day pointing out the faults.

I know very little about SGM, but if this particular group is as legalistic and restrictive as I read here, these girls were scrutinized for their entire growing up. Even in the best of circumstances, PKs clothing, attitudes, behavior, etc. is fodder for church discussion. It’s tough to grow up in a fishbowl, especially when you didn’t choose to be there, your parents did.

This whole situation is ugly and wrong.

That said, I guess I see these girls as victims, too.

I simply wish this could be discussed without bring the kids into it. I wouldn’t have commented at all, but I wanted to offer this perspective to the discussion.

Danny,
I think you’re absolutely right that blog comments can’t do this conversation justice. It usually is difficult to understand points and communicate effectively in any blog disagreement. This issue, however, is so nuanced that it makes it doubly difficult. I think I could defend my comments and Scripture use to you, but it would take a couple hundred back and forths, which in face to face would take an hour, but on blog, we’d be busy for the next 6 months. I’m very willing to let the Holy Spirit work with both of us. I’m pretty sure that’s something we can both agree on and pray for each other about. Thanks for your comments.

“Yes, the Mahaney girls may have been victims of a hyper-authoritarian system created primarily by their dad and his cohorts, but they are wives and mothers now. If they continue this pattern of sin-sniffing with their own children, they are no longer the victims. They are the perpetrators!”

The key word in this sentence is IF. I really enjoy you guys, but condemning them based on their parent’s behavior is patently unfair.

IF there is proof that they are continuing their parent’s tradition of hyper-authoritarianism, I’ll be first in line to shout it from the rooftops. In the meantime, they remain victims from my perspective. As such, they should be prayed for and left alone, in my opinion.

I respect the work you are doing here, but I would encourage you to rethink your approach to the children of abusive people in the future.

Patterns can be broken. I come from along line of both substance and people abusers. If people made assumptions about how I raised my children based on the generations who came before me…well, I don’t even like to think about it. We can’t change our past, but we can change our future. I’d like to give these women the benefit of the doubt until it is proven otherwise.

Eagle,
You said, “Let’s be kind to Danny guys (and gals!!) I’m waiting for another funagelcial pastor, ministry leader or accountability partner to lecture someone on sin…give them a beat down; while they secretly live a double life!! Or practce a sin that is acceptable..

Got to love Christianity!!”

I’m new to interacting on TWW. However, I promise not to speak with sweeping generalities if you will too. : )

This just makes me so, so sad. Deb, I believe you were right in calling this religious bondage, and this kind of bondage appears to be prevalent in every corner of Christianity, from what I can see.

As I see it, the bondage, simplified, is this: we trust Christ’s finished work on the cross for our salvation, our ticket to heaven–but we believe that the work of sanctification, the working out of our faith in our lives, is up to us. We must try harder, do more, read more, pray more, curse less, be angry less, etc. We live as if our sanctification is accomplished by a moralistic list of rules we have to follow to ascend each rung on a spiritual ladder.

We would call someone a heretic if they suggested that salvation was accomplished by Christ’s death and resurrection AND some amount of good deeds or effort on our part. But we are convinced, perhaps subconsciously, that our sanctification is exactly that: Jesus plus our effort, and we are terrified that we aren’t doing a good enough job. Or we are full of ourselves because we think we are doing a pretty good job.

The big problem that I have seen is that this attitude about sanctification is NOT directly taught. No one actually says “your works will save you from your flesh.” Everyone preaches grace from the pulpit, but a million subtle messages communicate the opposite:

– messages that talk grace, but list steps to follow to victory over sin.
– “accountability groups” that ask you to list out your sins and report every week on your progress. God help you if you aren’t progressing!
– subtle intimations that the really spiritual people attend church every time the doors are open
– pressure to serve in some (or multiple) ministries, or you are being disobedient

I think these kinds of things can be so subtle that they can create a kind of Stockholm Syndrome, where these messages are internalized to a point that you don’t know where your church’s pressure ends and your convictions begin. I KNOW this was true for me. It took a radical, painful, devastating experience to open my eyes. That was 4 or so years ago, and I am still sorting out what happened and trying to figure out exactly what I believe and what I was taught that was legalistic clap trap.

All that to say that I think that sometimes, even as adults, we can pass along to others the same bad teaching we got, because, as yet, we just don’t know any better. I know that I hurt others by behaving as I was taught. Does that excuse my sin? Absolutely not, but it does give it context.

In the case of the Mahaney girls, I have even more sympathy for them because they were children when they were taught this performance based Christianity. I was an adult and I was still so messed up. I can’t imagine what it must have been like to be raised this way. How much harder must it be to sort out the correct things from the false things you were taught your whole life, by your parents, who love you and are Christians (not to mention Christians in such prominence with so many devotees)?

They have my sympathy, I must say.

Suzanne,

The Mahaney girls didn’t leave SGM because they were rejecting their upbringing. They and their husbands, who were also SGM pastors, left because CJ did out of protest that he was being criticized. The video is an indication of how SGM leaders, as exemplified by the “First Family”, chose to portray themselves to the public. Unfortunately the sin emphasis goes through the organization from top to bottom, hence the thousands of wounded and/or disgruntled members. Been there done that, lived to tell the story. It is a systemic infection. The Mahaneys are just the poster children.

As for their husbands’ positions and believing they were examples for the church, welcome to the club. When I lived at home, we were constantly reminded of that very same thing. Standard PK stuff. I did not marry a “man in leadership,” but was still reminded that my attendance at church and other events was expected even after I married and left home. Dysfunctional? Yup. Codependent? You betcha. Worthy of making a video of me saying something naive at a church function during that time and years later using it as an example of how horrible my parents are? I certainly hope not!

If it’s all they knew, then it’s all they knew. If they aren’t the source of the problem, why make a spectacle of them? And, if I remember correctly, the husbands left SGM along with their wives.

I respect what you are doing on your blog more than I can say! People have been hurt deeply by churches and I’m so glad they have a place to go that’s safe.

If I was one of these daughters – who left her father’s church, wanted to straighten out the mess of thinking she was raised in, and landed here – I wouldn’t feel safe here.

And I would be deeply hurt that someone used me to accuse my parents.

Danny – there is a *huge* difference between your parents’ helping you with weaknesses and the kind of digging-everything-up attitude taken by the Mahaneys – all of them.

I don’t know if you’ve ever spent time on SGM Survivors or SGM Refuge, but if you do go to either site and read peoples’ stories, the whole “sin-sniffing” thing will become abundantly clear.

Suzanne – If you spend some time on the blogs I just recommended to Danny, you’ll understand more of what Deb is trying to get at in this post.

And the Mahaney girls are very public about their views – see the blog they co-write with their mother, called Girl Talk. It’s not like Deb is making things up out of thin air.

I am confused. Mahaney’s “kids” spoken of here are adult women married who have their own children. Not only that but they have written publicly on a blog teaching other women. They, too, have made a living from ministry. They are fair game.

A link to the Girl Talk blog, which will, in turn, lead you to the book and the other resources and the clubs (yes, clubs) that can turn you, too into a Stepford Wife.

Again, I realize that I’m being sarcastic, but there are reasons for that, and for my extreme skepticism where the whole Mahaney clan is concerned. Some of them have been discussed in depth on this blog.

Oh – Ezzo “parenting” kind of naturally leads right into heavy-handed authoritarian-style child rearing, unless parents realize that there’s something innately messed up about characterizing a 2 month-old’s hunger as sin and walk away from it.

Because if normal hunger and thirst is viewed as “sinful” during infancy, then how will other totally normal developmental stages and behaviors be viewed as time goes on and the infants become toddlers, then grade-schoolers?

I am afraid that many of the real-life answers to that question are extremely painful, and I believe that Carolyn Mahaney and her methods are part of a highly abusive system.

May God have mercy on us all… the Mahaneys, you, me, everyone who reads this blog, and all the folks who are still locked into SGM and their notions of “biblical womanhood” and “correct” child-rearing.

PS- Another fantastic book, meant to put this in to counter-balance the “sin focus” mentioned earlier… it’s a Banner of Truth book, by Octavius Winslow, based on Romans 8, called “No Condemnation in Christ Jesus”.

Eagle,
I hear you there. A lot of people are burned (and burned-out) by the church. I didn’t mean my comment as snarky as it sounded!

This is a very necessary article. When I read the words of this daughter, I could almost feel my stomach twist with the dark and emotionally unhealthy undertones.

What on earth was going on that the mother would go through the night and begin the next morning addressing sin in her daughter’s life?

I had two thoughts. One is maybe she is just trying to sound deep and super-spiritual. I have seen this in fundie Christian articles…like “as I brought the wet clothes out to hang up and dry, I thought of Jesus walking to the cross, and as I went back into the house to fix lunch for the kids, I reminded them of how God sent manna from heaven to feed His people.As we cleaned up from lunch, I had the children copy every scripture that referred to cleanliness…and I told the baby, as I put Him down for a nap, that on the seventh day, God rested…”On and on, ad infinitum…I used to believe that these people thought this way! Now I tend to think that it’s how they THINK they should think. Maybe a little of this is going on here. I tend to think that is not the case though…

Now if the Mahaney daughter REALLY went through this kind of thing with her mom, it sounds like a family that wanted to breed dysfunction.

BTW- I am breaking my rule here about not critiquing what or whom I am not very familiar with. I started to read a book by Mrs. Mahaney a few years back and could not. Certain Christian books make me think of the old film Invasion of the Body Snatchers…and I’m not getting back into any seed pods if I can help it. But, I’ve had enough exposure to this branch of Christianity to feel pretty comfortable in my instincts.

Thanks Dee and Deb. I’ve been angry about this for a while.

I had forgotten they had done several posts on eating and food issues and Nicole Whitacre’s post. Janelle Bradshaw also wrote a post – Q&A: Eating Issues

You can also go to the girltalk blog and enter “eating disorders” under Search. At the bottom of the list is the above post, which quotes a book titled “Love to eat hate to eat”. The other posts that address this issue say more or less the same thing about problems with food.

It is interesting that you bring up the girltalk blog. A year or so ago I stumbled on this blog while looking for some worthwhile women’s blogs to read (which are few and far between except for this one and a few others). I was reading and quickly knew this was not a blog I wanted to read for any period of time. It made me angry as it has Deb, Dee and a few other women.

Not only do they put their focus on sins, they add to a long list of so called sins, sins that are not sins, such as eating disorders.

Hmmm… Debbie, have you read Nancy Leigh DeMoss? She gets on my everloving nerves… These women are laughable. But ’tis so insane the scores of women gobbling up their advice every single day. Someone I knew used to send me links to Nancy’s and Carolyn McCulley’s blog posts and I’d just delete them. They are neurotic. All the conversations I’ve ever had to endure about that darn girltalk blog has left me hating blogs such as those. I”m glad our BQ’s here aren’t instructing us how to “serve” our husbands every darn day all day in every freaking way possible. Makes me wanna yack!

…oh and I’m not married either, neither do I have kids. So that makes it even worse. Apparently, nobody ever had anything good to tell single folk other than not to have sex… or get married really soon to some stranger just so you can… and just so you can now join our married small group. (yack…)

“However, the hours that my mom invested into creativity were no match for the hours invested in discipling and caring for our souls. My mom spent many a late night helping us to work through our sin, only to wake up early the next morning to start that process all over again. And this was all done with great joy…. She loved us unconditionally despite our many sins and weaknesses….”

Several things:

1. As a mom of 4 myself, it would CRUSH me to hear that the thing most remembered about me are the hours I invested “working through” my children’s sin. How tragic. To be remembered this way, as a MOTHER, would torment me.

2. Their mother helped battle their sin with “great joy” late into the night and then again the next morning. It brought her JOY to berate her children about their sin and guilt?

3. Interesting that the Mahaney girls are still referring to themselves as children who had “many sins and weaknesses”.

Loving, healthy Christian parents with sound biblical understanding know their children aren’t perfect, but we don’t think of our children as having “many sins and weaknesses”. As a mother, my focus is FAR from their weakness. There are times when correction is needed but never late into the night and again the next morning. My focus is on my children’s strengths, their gifts, their innocence, their needs, security, happiness, and health.

4. Even without the negative things the Mahaney girls shared about their mother… even if everything they said was glowing and positive… I would have cringed sitting there if I was their mother. I appreciate a thank you now and then from my kids in private, but I would never want them to stand and read from a script about all of my “accomplishments” as a mother. Creepy and uncomfortable. It wasn’t an honoring thing to do. It was further manipulation of their followers and an embarrassing PR maneuver.

Suzanne: The bigger picture has been acknowledged, and it still contains the problem that the girls think it’s a good thing for a mother to grind over her children’s sins for hours on end. The bigger picture contains the problem that SGM and the Mahaneys are obsessed with sin-sniffing, and CJ especially sin-sniffs other people more than he does for himself. If he did so enough sniffing on himself, he wouldn’t have the track record that he does. The bigger picture still contains the problem that SGM and the Mahaneys are very picky over what constitutes sin, laying shame on harmless things like shyness in children.

regarding nancy leigh demoss: i am SO happy to hear that i am not the only one with major issues with her. the legalism that pours from most of her work is just tragic.

my “connection group” reading “lies women believe” was one of the first times that it occurred to me that perhaps my church wasn’t as grace-filled as i had thought.

Deb–

I will wait as patiently as I can. Get to typing, Dearest Queen!

Dee,

“Major bulletin: The world sees our hypocrisy and has been laughing at us for a long time. Instead, I say we air our problems, call them wrong, let the world see we don’t like it and that we actually deal with things.”

So true. The problem the world has – and the problem that Christians in these abusive churches and ministries have – is that there has been so much pretense. The Bible warns explicitly of false prophets and false teachings and tells us to be on guard.

Deb and Dee, thank you for helping us to stay on guard and for warning us of these false teachers. I appreciate your boldness in calling them out and your unwavering concern for “the least of these” – children and adults — who have been exploited and abused in these false movements and teachings.

Wendy –

I’m also curious as to when they will stop calling their blog “Girl Talk.” Maybe they will move on to “Lady Talk” (ugh!). I have always disliked the term “Ladies.” Maybe for good reason?

When will they call themselves “Women?” God didn’t seem to have a problem with the term. I much prefer being called a woman rather than a lady, and it has nothing to do with my femininity. I don’t read their blog so it really doesn’t matter to me, but it matters for me to think that women who do go there to read it are seeing that title . . . as if they should think of themselves as “girls” which is the term I use for a women who is under around 14 years of age! It reeks of being considered young and immature and not able to comprehend things. To me it is a “dumbing down” of women.

No apologies for this rant!

I regrettably bought into the whole keep my children from sin even if you have to bully them into it mentality as a parent. Much more so than my husband. I loved my children but also as a young Christian and mother wanted to do what I thought God wanted me to. With the only teaching I knew and not knowing all the Bible except for certain proof texts(spare the rod, spoil the child, and other such proof texts), I was many times more of a bully to my children than I was a loving, caring mom, although I was that too.

It made my children angry into adulthood, especially my son and youngest daughter who I was hardest on.

It took a lot of apologies and sitting with them not making excuses but sincerely repenting to them. I have experienced the damage of this type of teaching growing up, and I also experienced doing this type of teaching as a parent. It’s harm is beyond words.

Someone said that maybe the process starting all over again was regarding the mothering, the doing things for them, and not the sin-sniffing workshop she’d continue into the next day.

Let’s break this down:

1. Her mothering was always fueled by a strong Biblical conviction and love for us that compelled her to use all of her energy and creativity.

This is good. The Bible has given her conviction to love her children well by putting much of her energy and creativity into them.

2. She would spend hours planning activities and special things for us. There was family olympics, mystery night, birthday meals, afternoon out, shopping trips, the list really is endless.

This sentence tells us descriptively in what ways her energy and creativity was used. These are great things to do with your kids. Go Carolyn! Great job! Now hopefully all the other hundreds of women at SGM didn’t think they needed to do these exact activities as you did to be Biblical wives. HOPEFULLY, they learned about the unique diversities of their own children and loved and cared for them based on their own needs and personalities.

3. However, (now the use of this transition word is telling us that this is a separate idea from the one before. It helps to change the tone and/or shows the reader a contrast to what was stated before) the hours that my mom invested into creativity were no match for the hours invested in discipling and caring for our souls.

This sentence tells us that she spent a disparate amount of time discipling and soul-caring for her children, THAN investing creatively in her kids. Although it conveys she did a great deal of both.

4. (Next, and again, she gives a description of how that was done.) My mom spent many a late night helping us to work through our sin, only to wake up early the next morning to start that process all over again.

Let’s take a look at the word “only” here for a minute. In this sentence, it’s being used as an adverb to indicate an event that happened immediately after. It can be used also to indicate a surprising or unpleasant event that happens immediately after the one mentioned. The event that is mentioned is that mom spent many late nights helping them deal with their sin. Then the unpleasant event and probably surprising event ensues: she would continue this sin-sniffing workshop immediately the morning of the next day. In my opinion, if she had to do that, then she wasn’t very effective. I won’t begin to even address the absurdity and cruelty to her children in this post, as this is just to walk through what was said and separate the ideas here.

5. And (…and here we have our grammatical conjunction connecting the two thoughts: the one immediately preceding the conjunction and the one after) this was all done with great joy and never a single moment of complaint.

This was all done… What was done? The sin-sniffing workshop and “helping” them “work” through their sin. Who was it done by? Their mother. Interesting that it wasn’t the Holy Spirit but I digress. Therefore, it follows that the joy and lack of complaint was on the part of the doer and not those receiving the supposed “benefits” of such actions. I’d like to insert the common theme in Calvanista-land here that I am such a lowly sinner and deserve worse. I should only be so blessed to be disciplined in this sick way. God bless the person/discipliner for taking on such a joyous and complaintless task because it never feels good to squeeze blood from a turnip.

6. She was our greatest ally in our battle against sin and our biggest cheerleader for our growth and godliness.

Really? I thought Christ was? Hmmm…. Shotty job he did on the Cross there. What a senseless and wasteful sacrifice. Seriously. Because if our mother’s would just do this, then Jesus really coulda just chilled out for a few more years and taught his homeboys how to make more water into wine. This sentence would be okay if the words weren’t loaded. Growth and godliness in SGMese means something completely different than Scripture would imply. It would make more sense if she were their greatest ally in showing them how much Christ loves them and what unconditional love looks like. She could rather be their biggest cheerleader to help them learn to grow in love and godly character, and help them to forgive themselves as Christ has forgiven her.

7. She was the first to bring correction and the first to bring encouragement and to point out change.

This all is a descriptive continuation of how their mother disciplined them. Interesting that this comment was much longer and far more descriptive than how she may have doted on them, encouraged them in an affectionate love, or any other thing a mom could do to convey to her kids an affectionate and unconditional love. But as we can see here, the focus is far more on sin. Why? Because sin is the focus. Simply put. Not Christ. Not a love that bears all things. But sin. I simply would have stopped sinning after hour one so she could leave me the hell alone and let me go to bed. But apparently, since she has the ability to see through hearts, souls and minds–like Christ–only (see, there’s that word again…this time, it’s conditional, making the preceding statement true) she knows when change has taken place. Really, Carolyn? Really? It would be nice if she were the first to bring love and the first to bring forgiveness and understanding. But ummm…yeah. So much for firsts.

8. She loved us unconditionally (are you sure you know what that word means, Little Lady?) despite our many sins and weaknesses, and this faithful mothering won the hearts of her daughters…”

This sentence would be true if the aforementioned sin-sniffing workshop wasn’t described to the reader. The reader questions whether or not the subject understands what “unconditional” means? Furthermore, what has been described as faithful mothering has an uncanny resemblance to a lawyer or a judge, rather than an intercessor, ally, or help in time of need and certainly not one who has the freedom to forgive or encourage forgiveness. After all, did Christ come to remind us daily of our sins, or did he come to forgive and remember our sins no more. I wonder if their hearts were truly “won” into submission, rather than forced? I’ll let you be the judge.

Disclaimer: It is every duty of a parent to teach their children right from wrong, and bring up issues of behavior that are not good or acceptable. BUT in so doing, never without the awareness that such offspring is a human, with a heart of flesh, a mind not entirely shaped and formed, who is to be dealt with sternly if needed and truthfully, but always with overwhelming compassion, grace, understanding and love. Discipline is good. But what the ladies have described above is discipline alone, and without the accompanying necessities that discipline requires.

Now, I’m no English teacher. I don’t know much about technical sentence structure and the rest. But if someone as straightforward and plain as me could pick all of that out from those statements, then I wonder what a real literary technical genius could do?

@Anne-I agree definitely.

Dave–

Thank you for that lesson. As many times as I have read that, I never gleaned that from the text. I think it was uplifting. I would never have really looked at Bathsheba as one to admire.

Wendy–

I used to read all of those Christian counseling books, particularly often dealing with recalling memories. I have survived my share of abuse, and while I have grown stronger as the Lord has strengthened me, I wasn’t always this way. As a youngster, I was often melancholy, sad, hard to please. I was generally disappointed with God and life. Afterall, did He love me as much as He did? Because I wasn’t sure, and up to that point, I coudln’t really see that. My parents were the greatest example I could have of Him, and yet they simply weren’t.

So other Chritians, particularly older ones, always wanted to fix me. I’ve been called selfish, ungrateful, unhappy, unwilling. I wanted to be happy, I really did. What teenager or young adult wants to be sad all the time. But I was sad. Very sad. My heart was broken and continually broken. When I was told that my depression was because of my own sin, or that it was sinful for me to be depressed…well, that just made me depressed. It depressed me that I couldn’t choose to be blissfully happy like the other Christians around me; and certainly not as happy as the Christian who was telling me that my depression was sin. It also depressed me as I was told that I had more responsibility than I thought I had in how I responded to the abuse against me. Yeah, for some reason, God expected me not to rebel or respond angrily. He wanted me to muster up the strength and courage to be blithe and bonny in the face of abuse. This type of “counsel” usually sent me into a tail spin that I almost wouldn’t make it out of. So much for “Christian” counseling.

Numo–

I think your premonition might be right. I saw that type of perfectionist mothering a ton when I was at CHBC. Since bad habits die hard, it’s still alive and well there. Thanks for the compliment. I know that I am amongst some serious smarties here, but figure I’d take a stab at it since we could have been mistaken and all, you know?

Does Carolyn’s faithful mothering above reflect any of that? What verse is that BTW? (lemme go Google that)

Trina, I am horrible at grammar and the kind of analysis you did was helpful to me! It clarified a number of things… so please keep up the great work. 🙂

Your comments are always insightful, but the two on analysis (of characters and then of sentence structure) are very relevant here, as they defuse tension by looking at what was said in a nonjudgmental manner.

The perfectionism thing seems endemic to SGM – and to other authoritarian churches as well – am sure you saw it in action at CHBC, as I did at That Church.

Evie – I looked at the girltalk blog last week and was saddened by the photos they post, if only because they seem to be living in such confined circumstances.

Why continually post pics of things like what their kid did to the roll of toilet paper? I mean… [wow. am out of words.]

I do feel bad for them, but it is so painful to see them perpetuating the SGM “plan.” I hope their daughters are able to go to college (and grad school, if they want to) and lead independent lives before deciding to marry and have kids.

That old saw “Marry in haste; repent at leisure” comes to mind. (I in no way intend to be critical of anyone for marrying and having kids, but as a longtime – unintentionally – single woman, I find it painful that marriage and early motherhood are being pushed as the only acceptable role for young women…)

steve – I can’t speak for Trina, but she was a member of Mark Dever’s church for a couple of years and saw a LOT of bad things. (Mark Dever’s church is where the Mahaneys went when C.J. was asked to step down last year.)

I do not think she was off in her analysis of what was said.

Steve, my apologies if I sounded grumpy and unwelcoming. I’m tired today and it’s coming through in the tone of my comments.

Still… I have to wonder about the aim of the sentence that I quoted above, from your post. Since you mentioned the blog’s “prime directive” immediately prior, it seems as if (maybe) you believe the blog’s prime directive is not about helping those who have been abused?

Honestly, I am confused and would really appreciate any clarification you can offer.

Trina,

Thanks for sharing your struggle with depression and Christians who accused you of being the problem. I got my masters in counseling from a well-known conservative Christian university. I must say, at that time, it was a solid program. I don’t remember getting a lot of messages that people created their own problems and were choosing to sin if they were depressed, had mental illness, eating disorders, and so on. I came out of the program with what I believed was a sound education and understanding of mental illness, addiction, and personality disorders and how to treat them.

My beliefs took a strange turn several years after graduation while working in a mental health agency. At the time, I was immersed in an authoritarian, legalistic church culture and was being bombarded with messages that the root of our problems were sin and we were overcomers. I’m ashamed to admit it, but I started to believe that all of these therapies, programs, and medications not only didn’t work for my clients and families, but were flat-out wrong. The problems were either Satanic and/or a result of disobedience.

I prayed and prayed for God to open a door for me to practice Christian counseling in a church or Christian setting. I thought I would really see results if allowed to work with troubled folks just using my bible. That’s a truly scary thought. Thankfully, God brought me out of that phase and brought me full-circle.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t surprise me at all that those were/are the messages you received from other Christians. The rise and influence of these hyper-authoritarian leaders and ministries has perpetuated erroneous, harmful beliefs and teachings about the various struggles in our lives.

Wendy–

Did you go to Regent? That’s interesting you say that, about using the bible alone to provide counsel. Right before I left CHBC, there was a group I was attending called soemthing like Helping others Heal or something to that effect. Basically, it was a small group where we met and discussed how to counsel others in the church who had issues and how we could use Scripture to help them deal with issues. But what bothered me most was that no one was required to be a real counselor, but that we were encouraged to do this with others. I didn’t stay long because well… I quit. And then I quit the church. Nuff said.

Steve said ” Kindly let’s move on to something more constructive.”

I suppose more constructive (and bigger picture) is what I had in mind with my Bathsheba example.

Some leading female Christian writers say, “Wives, submit to your husband’s leadership.” In my example, she challenged his leadership and thus saved her (grown adult male) child. Later, she was not so helpful to her son when she passed on a “request” from the man who wanted him dead. So what other biblical examples do we see of parents helping or hindering their children?

Just 1 more: Sarah, commended for wifely submission by Peter, made a demand upon her husband to “help” and protect HER child, as well. Paul quoted her words as scripture with a much broader application, in Gal 4:30-31. Paul substituted “the son of the free woman” for Sarah’s words “my son Isaac”.

But what does the Scripture say?
         “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
         FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

Trina & numo,

Glad to hear the voice of human reason from you ladies! Don’t ever let ANYONE tell you that you have no spark of divine and that you only have a “sin nature” which must be flogged into submission. It’s a crock-o’-you know what.
===> (smiley face goes here)

Well, Jimmy… I’ll work on the answer to that question, if you will simultaneosly work on this one:

And like you, I ask this very seriously…

How will SGM receive Mahaney back after he left so abruptly to escape any “discipline” they would require of him, and go to Dever’s church who at one point allowed him to preach, while also ignoring all the insane but very real stories of abuse, child sexual predators/rape, black mail and control done under his leadership, and some of it fostered by him?

It does seem incongruous frankly.

I was in SGM churches for many years and sat through countless seminars and meetings for women, moms, and married couples, and I read many of the books you all have mentioned (though recently I purged my bookshelves of those). At the time, I fully embraced what they taught – I didn’t know any other “brand” of Christianity – but know that I’m on the outside looking in, I realize how twisted and damaging much of it is. Thank God He has brought me out!

One thing I wanted to add to the discussion – not sure if anyone mentioned it – is the heavy emphasis SGM made on identifying “idols of the heart”, a la David Powlison and his buddies at CCEF. We were taught that basically all of our problems in relationships come from sinful cravings (James 4:1-2) and whatever we are craving is actually an idol. So our mission is to identify and root out those idols in order to stop sinning. If we are sinning, then that means that we are worshiping an idol, not God. Our hearts are idol factories and we are idolaters. So, anyway, along with trying to identify the idols in our own hearts, the kindest thing we moms can do for our children is to help them identify their idols by asking the right kinds of questions and helping them to own up to their own sins. I think that’s what the Mahaney ladies are talking about when they talk about “working through their sin.” I don’t think it would be correct to equate this with berating or scolding, and I’m confident that their idol-identification sessions also included expressions of love and encouragement.

That said, I do believe that the emphasis in Carolyn’s (and other SGM leaders, both male and female) is wrongly placed on our sinfulness rather than the grace and affectionate love of our heavenly Father. It grieves me to see how much damage has been done, and I pray that the Lord will restore the years that the locust has eaten for so many of us.

The point of my biblical examples, as it relates to “working through their sin” while avoiding bashing:

Supporters: Name ONE biblical woman in the Bible who helped ANY of her children work through their sin in ANY way, and let’s discuss HER!

Bashing? Really? That is what you call this? Funny how that word was also used to control those in most churches who dared speak out against wrong treatment or teaching.

It’s not bashing people. It’s getting the hurt out. It’s getting the truth out about these ministries and it goes well with the e-church. I think we owe them to listen.

This blog is here for people to be honest and talk about their pain, their hurts. To bring out what is wrong in ministries. It’s also a healing point to do this.

These people who are hurting and have been burnt by the church have the ability to speak of this here and gain a listening ear. If some of you do not want to listen, do not want to hear, then don’t read it. Keep being blind to the pain of others and the truth of what these ministries are doing. After all that’s the Americ….I mean Christian way right? I’m sorry but I am angry at those who come in here and dare lecture to anyone about so called bashing. It’s a ridiculous charge and it’s another control tactic. Some of you come here and don’t know a thing about what these people are going through and know nothing about SGM. Educate yourself on the topic and then stop your lectures!

Trina & numo,

Glad to hear the voice of human reason from you ladies! Don’t ever let ANYONE tell you that you have no spark of divine and that you only have a “sin nature” which must be flogged into submission. It’s a crock-o’-you know what.

I agree with muff here. Well said.

I’m sorry Dee and Deb, I just couldn’t read anymore from Suzanne, Danny or Jimmy without saying something.

Trina: There are two GirlTalk posts (that I found) on relationships with guys.

1) If you’re single and have no husband to lead you, don’t make decisions for yourself but let other men in your life (e.g. fathers, brothers, friends) lead you instead.
http://www.girltalkhome.com/blog/Help_the_Men [I’m not being hyperbolic with my description of the article. Read it].

2) Have guy friends, but don’t get emotionally close or else they’ll fall in love with you. Relate to all men as ‘another woman’s husband.’ Present yourself as pure in front of all men. Make sure your reasons for wanting guy friends are ‘God-honouring’ (whatever that means). And have frequent talks with your mother about your friendships with guys to make sure you’re doing it right.
http://www.girltalkhome.com/blog/qa-guy-friends [Also not being hyperbolic].

Dee,
You said, “We have been writing this blog for 3 years and are pretty good at reading people. Perhaps that is because you started off on this blog by announcing your intentions of being “different” then the rest of the commentators.I found this comment a bit amusing. I have heard everything on this blog so your claim of being different both amused and intrigues me.” Perhaps I need you to define what you mean by “being different.”

I looked back over my comments to be sure, but I don’t recall saying I’m different. ☺ I hope to be able to take part of this community and learn from and offer other insights as well. However, if that’s not needed or desired, then I certainly don’t want to distract from the mission!

“How will Wartburg host E-church on Sunday and Mahaney bashing on Monday”

Jimmy, anytime wolves are warned about, their defenders call it “bashing”. It is in the playbook.

If you don’t, no more Chinese next time we see you!

🙂 Thanks

Attacking Carolyn Mahaney for CJ’s sins and misdeed is surely wrong.

Wartburg wishes to speak for the wounded. Reading the comments, “the wounded” appear to quickly become the WOUNDERS.

Attacking Carolyn Mahaney based on a praise of her daughter given 8 years ago and then turning around and trumpeting Wade’s fine sermon really seems strange.
I actually don’t think you can have it both ways. I think Wartburg will try however.

Jimmy: It is you who are being the wounder. I think you know that. Stop it.

Anonymous is not exaggerating about that link to girl talk.

Kind of sort of reminds me of advice girls were given in the 1950’s.

I wonder if they’re going to advise women to look stupid so we don’t intimidate men or make them think we’re bossy.

This stuff is vile.

Did you hear Wade say “STOP IT” in last Sunday’s sermon? It was great!

Ha ha no. And I listened to the sermon. I will have to listen again.

Jimmy said it absolutely perfectly:

“Wartburg wishes to speak for the wounded. Reading the comments, “the wounded” appear to quickly become the WOUNDERS”

I actually think an apology is due to the Mahaneys…and at the very least this whole post and thread should be deleted.

randall slack said: “…most spend their lives lashed to the mast, instead of listening to a sweeter song.”

well said, dad. something about the mast appeals to us. to our flesh i assume. we want to be virtuous on our own, to have strength of our own to point to for victory. we torture ourselves trying to muster up moralism.

but Jesus just asks us to listen to the song He sings over us, and take him at his word. he does it all.

Jesus paid it all.
All to Him I owe.
Sin had left a crimson stain.
He washed it white as snow.

DB,

Have you ever met Sheree P that you talk about on your blog? Did you go to Metro Life?

I’m just not getting why there is so much hatred for people that are brothers and sisters in Christ, even if you disagree with their theology and methodology? (not you specifically but people on this blog)

If people here truly care for the people of SGM, there certainly wouldn’t be these hateful posts.

If people TRULY believe that the people of SGM are caught in cultic legalism, where’s the compassion? I just ain’t feelin’ it.

One more thought because I don’t want to get caught up in arguing back and forth. Which is easy to do.

All of us in our Christian life walk in legalism –either for long periods of time or just maybe here and there through out the day. It’s a balance that’s hard to achieve. I totally agree that SGM lost that balance along the way. I totally agree there’s been bad leadership and lack of polity. However, these people are Christians just like we are. They aren’t evil people to be attacked for the sake of being attacked.

I can understand the anger at legalism, but attacking people over legalism is legalism itself. If grace was truly understood here, people wouldn’t be attacking the PEOPLE of SGM. I’m not the girly type and probably don’t have a thing in common with the Mahaney Girls, but this I do know…they are precious daughters of God too.

Shato–

Instead of keeping company with so-called haters with whom you most definitely won’t change our opinions about SGM, why keep coming here saying all the ridiculous rubbish that really doesn’t amount to much? It should be clear to you by now that what you consider hating, we consider fair critique.

I promise you that this blog will never meet yours, Jimmy’s or even Suzanne’s standards. You are, to me, weak or blind. You can’t see beyond your own stupid legalistic ways far enough to take a break from random insults to people who would fight tooth and nail for some ridiculous person like you if you were in the same boat as others. It is clear you don’t see the Mahaneys or others as we do, so what’s your point? You really are wasting your time if you continue to approach the from your angle.

If you haven noticed, this blog isn’t for the cowardly, the faint at heart, the spiritually deaf and blind. It’s for courageous people who don’t feel the need to play by your stupid rules, rules that you don’t hold your leaders to, who aren’t afraid to speak their minds and try and accomplish what you shirk from and wouldn’t dare ever have the guts to do. So please save your weak arguments and double standards for those who are like you. I’m sure you’ll find such company at all the SGM branded blogs. Those blogs would serve you better.

Shato,

Funny thing happened recently namely the beginning of blogging and the true First Ammendment sort of power that those that had, for generations, been disenfranchised and given no voice suddenly have voice.

People like Dee and Deb to a great extent because of their raw talent and the aching need for so many in the body of Christ to vent and share their story with others.

And, for some of us, to snark a bit.

Dee and Deb have opened their venue to others to share and discover their voice as well as their position as sons and daughters of the King.

The Mahaneys enjoy a great level of privilege based upon nepotism, rather than the quality or validity of the message they have been spreading via their Girl Talk and little books directed to submissive women. They have profited by preaching submissive sub-standard lives for women and any voice of dissension has been squelched by those holding excessive levels of power.

But the blogging era is upon us, and the rules of the SGM game have changed. News flash! God will not bless a sin-sniffing draconian sort of parenting. Lets face it, unless it eats its young, any animal on earth knows how to take care of its young better than keeping kids up late into the night to walk them through their sin or some other such twaddle.

Car-0-lyn, sheeeereeeeee-ee-e-e and anyone else of that ilk, you have the God-given right to say pointless sexist and condescending twaddle but be prepared to defend yourself because, to be honest, it is way too fun to opine since one of yours tried so hard to shut me up.

Eagle–

I can’t imagine how ur sis would be treated especially considering that most people in high demand churches like this need to be high performers and contributors to earn the respect of tge community. Those with serious needs often fall through the cracks.

Does Shato attend An SGM “church”?

Dee–

Well, mom, depending on if you want to know my thoughts. After all, Harry Connick was just on Law and Order SVU (insert tongue in cheek)… Hahahaha

Rev. Please add to your daughter/elder’s subliminal messages: I will be a good ESS teacher in adult male Sunday school classes @echurch. And… Remember your first aPostle. Thanks. Donations accepted at www. SuperlativeaPstle.gov….
Saint: trying help you hit 300.
You know, I made 3 serious comments today hoping to talk about the Bible, not criticisms or personalities, with critics of the post or supporters of Mrs M. I even prayed for a Bathsheba spirit for mothers… crickets… Maybe it’s the Appalled tag. Shortening to AA (apostle appalled).

“Sorry, but my BS detector is really going off with this group.”

Best comment in a long time!

Eagle,

To second what Deb said, that is a great analysis.

Imagine the difference it would have made if CJ had responded like Wade Burleson, when he learned of the people who were struggling with a few issues in his church. Wade responded with humility and approachability and there was lasting fruit as a result. What a contrast to how SGM has responded. It’s so sad.

Dave–

I found your comments interesting and I did respond. Did you miss it?

I always say stop it. It’s short, to the point, needs no explanation. 🙂

Trina,

I went to Liberty in the early 90’s. At the time, things seemed mostly normal. There were a few folks and a few “messages” I didn’t agree with. There were things Falwell did/said that I just shrugged off then. Even so, it was a sound counseling program at the time. Since then, LU has seriously disappointed me with some of their decisions and scandal.

Looking back at my own experiences, my conflict with counseling theory, techniques, and interventions didn’t surface until I began really immersing myself in authoritarian church culture. Thankfully, I never stopped doing what I was doing (until I left the social work and mental health fields and went into education). I never fully believed that mental illness and other personal problems were the result of sin or a demonic foothold. When you work with troubled folks day in and day out (especially children who are mentally ill), it’s very difficult to believe that they’re in sin or there is a generational curse or there’s demonic oppression. But these were the messages I was getting from the church – these problems are exclusively the result of sin or allowing Satan a foothold. It was very confusing.

On some level, I do understand the brainwashing that has happened with the Mahaney women (daughters). Being constantly immersed in the cult(ure), being kept up late at night for idol identification, being told you’re not good Christians and good daughters if you dare to believe differently than your parents, if you “rebel” and go down your own road, if you choose to live a life of Christian freedom rather than in bondage – your very salvation is in question. I have empathy for anyone who has had to walk in those shoes.

But I firmly disagree with commenters who refuse to believe the Mahaney women are excused from responsibility. These women are grown women. They are adults. They are making choices to perpetuate the cycles of exploitation, manipulation, and abuse. They are standing by their father and doing nothing to minister to those who were thrown to the wolves. Abuse victims will tell you that what hurts worse than the abuse itself is the betrayal by those who know and stay silent.

I’m still confused by it. I get why the Mahaney women do it – power, prestige, money. They’ve got followers. They’ve got an agenda.

But why do ordinary women buy into this? What’s the hook?

Deb,

This quote is applicable to our discussion on the Mahaney women:

“Silence is complicity, and defensiveness is endorsement.” -David Sirota

Hi, Suzanne.

Convictions on these topics are running high at the moment.

If it makes a difference, I don’t think you were being referred to as a wolf.

“…anytime wolves are warned about, their defenders call it “bashing”. It is in the playbook.”

I think you would fall into the “defender” category. But I didn’t read you as necessarily defending “people” but rather a principle that is important to you.

I don’t see that statement as applying to you. I hope this is helpful.

Just my opinion, but I can think of far worse things for a teenager to do than smoking a joint.

It’s not like he robbed the Bank of England. 😉

Trina: belatedly catching up after real life busyness. I did see your comment and appreciated much, along with Dee’s video. My “crickets” jab intended ONLY for those who think we’re being too critical and want the discussion redirected to more positive, upbuilding topics– I suppose the bible to be one of those.
Randall: marketing really is the “bottom line” on “PFODs” (popular fads of the day), isn’t it?

Steve – I hear you, but at the same time, that’s C.J.’s problem, not his son’s. (Nor do I believe his son and the other kids involved should have been made part of a public display of whatever it is that SGM likes to get up to…)

Eagle –

I believe Joseph Smith’s first wife and one if his sons did not follow him out of Illinois to the promised land. Did you hear of this and I was wondering if you know the “why,” or do you have any speculations on the why? I have my own speculations. I’d actually like to know the truth as much as possible.

numo

My whole point is C.J. holding others to a higher standard than he himself lives by. Maybe rather than hiding his son’s sin as has been alleged he should have admitted that he set too high of a standard. Of course, this would mean that C.J. would have to admit that he made a mistake in requiring leaders to step down when he didn’t do the same.

Eagle

Interesting comment about Joe Smith not practicing what he required of others in his group.

Is it just me, or does it strike anyone else as beyond weird for a Christian to be comfortable with a two-hour public extravaganza “honoring” (translation: extolling and hyping and praising) their life and work?

And yes, the focus on “sin management” (to use Dallas Willard’s term for it) is just depressing. And it tends to stunt both grace and real spiritual growth and depth.