Brother Mark’s Traveling Sex Show

"And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed."

Genesis 2:25 (NASB)



Update: 4/2/14: I was listening to Neil Diamond's song are the end of this post. For some reason, it struck me that Diamond shows far more humility on the subject of faith than Brother Mark…

Three years ago yesterday (February 5, 2009) Mark Driscoll came to our area to address college students about being “naked and unashamed”. As you can see from the advertisement, it was sponsored by Cornerstone and was held in the Great Hall (located in the Student Union) on the UNC-Chapel Hill campus.   Please be sure to notice the line of fine print on the poster, which reads – "WHAT YOUR PASTOR WAS AFRAID TO TELL YOU ABOUT LOVE AND SEX".

Now let's back up. . . Several weeks before his arrival, my older daughter (who was 19 at the time) informed me that Driscoll was coming to speak at Cornerstone – her Campus Crusade for Christ group. She was excited, as was I.  I didn't know much about Mark Driscoll, but Christian leaders whom I revered spoke highly of him, and I trusted their opinions.  The topic of his talk had not yet been announced.  I had planned to drive over to Chapel Hill that evening, take my daughter out for dinner, and then attend this wonderful event with her and her friends.  One of my favorite pastimes is hearing inspirational Christian speakers.  I even wrote a Facebook comment expressing my enthusiasm about the opportunity to hear Mark Driscoll in person.

About a week before the event my daughter called to tell me the topic of Mark Driscoll's talk  — "naked and unashamed" — and to say that due to the graphic nature of the discussion I might feel uncomfortable attending.  My heart sank, and I reluctantly agreed not to go.

Mark sent out this Tweet on February 3, 2009, announcing his appearance at the event, which stated:  "I'll be speaking at Naked & Unashamed at UNC, Chapel Hill, NC on Thursday".

When Driscoll spoke in Chapel Hill, The Wartburg Watch was just a dream (or a vision), but definitely NOT pornovision!  I just realized in the last day or so that we began blogging around 40 days after Driscoll's "naked and unashamed" talk.  A good Biblical number, indeed! 

After John MacArthur published his "Rape of Solomon's Song" series on the internet, I decided to address Mark Driscoll's appearance at my daughter's college.  I apologize for the graphic nature of my post; however, it is necessary in order to convey what occurred and why I am so disturbed.  Here is my motherly lament, which was posted on April 23, 2009 — about a month after we began blogging. 

Driscoll's Sex Tips and the Tipping Point

What follows is an excerpt from that post:

"Needless-to-say, I did not go to hear Mark Driscoll speak. I expected my daughter to call after Mark’s visit and share with me all the inspiring things he said. The phone call never came. Finally, I called my daughter a week later and offered to take her to lunch, which I did. After we got settled at our table, I said, “So tell me about Mark’s talk. What did he share with the students?” She vaguely said Mark gave a lot of statistics and information, although she couldn’t remember anything specific.

Once Mark’s message was uploaded onto the college ministry website, I listened to it and understood why nothing he said was that memorable. He hammered them with statistics about sexual involvement, yada, yada, yada. They’ve heard it all before!

What she shared with me next absolutely STUNNED me, although I tried not to display my utter shock. My precious daughter said something to the effect, ”Students were encouraged to ask questions at the end, and one of the questions was ‘Is it O.K. for a married couple to engage in oral and anal sex?’” My initial thought was — if this was the kind of question students felt comfortable asking Mark Driscoll, what in the world did he say to these Christian singles?

Then my daughter asked a question that I’m convinced she heard from Mark himself that evening because she has never said anything remotely close to it before. “If Mark doesn’t tell us about these things, who will?” I immediately said, “Is that what Mark Driscoll claims? That is absolutely not true! You can discuss any sexual topic with me.” She and I have had quite a few “sex talks” before, and that’s probably why she felt comfortable sharing such an intimate question with me. I then went on to explain to her in a very matter-of-fact way why anal sex can have serious health consequences. Prior to this graphic discussion, I had heard a medical expert explain that the vaginal lining is twice as thick as the lining of the rectum, and that’s why anal sex can be dangerous. Remember the E. coli? I shared this information with her and explained that anal sex is just not natural. If God had intended for a married couple to engage in this kind of sex, He would have designed the female body accordingly.

We concluded our lunch, and I dropped her off for her next class. On the way home I phoned my husband to tell him what our daughter learned from Mark Driscoll’s “sex talk”. Dads, how do you feel about this? Is it O.K. for a married man who claims to be a godly “shepherd” to entertain questions like that in a forum with both male and female singles? Has Mark Driscoll crossed the line? I wonder how many of the hundreds of college students who attended this event with my daughter have kept silent about Mark’s sex advice. Unfortunately, most parents are probably clueless about Mark’s “visit”.  Finally, I wonder how many college groups Mark Driscoll has visited where the same scene has played out. That was THE TIPPING POINT!

When I arrived home, I immediately checked the campus ministry website to hear Mark’s words for myself. Just how was THAT sexual question asked? I should have known . . .

It took several weeks for Mark’s NAKED AND UNASHAMED message to be uploaded onto the college ministry website. The internet is such a wonderful tool! At long last I could finally hear what Mark Driscoll spoke in my daughter ‘s presence. At the beginning of recording, the campus ministry leader explained that students could ask their questions in the Mars Hill fashion. In other words, they would “text” their questions anonymously, and Mark would answer them.

There was nothing particularly impressive about what Mark Driscoll said during his talk, but what I found peculiar was how he immediately launched into answering the students’ questions at the conclusion of his message. There was absolutely no pause! Mark finished the last sentence of his presentation and in rapid fire read the first question in what sounded like a nervous tone. It seemed totally scripted to me. As you might imagine, the first question was, “Is it O.K. for a married couple to engage in oral and anal sex?” If you visited the link we provided to the Mars Hill website in the previous post, you already know how Mark Driscoll responded.

Here’s my theory. NO ONE texted Mark that question. That’s why he asked it first. It was part of the Brother Mark's Traveling Sex Show."

Did Mark Driscoll travel all the way across country just to address a college group?   Actually, he was here in North Carolina to speak at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary's 20/20 Collegiate Conference.  It really caught my attention because he was joined by none other than C.J. Mahaney.  That 20/20 conference was just three years ago…

And there is more to the story… 

When we posted my mother's lament about Mark Driscoll, The Wartburg Watch was a very obscure blog.  Hardly anyone was reading it because, as stated before, we had only been posting for a month.  Weeks later I was walking out of a Moms in Touch prayer meeting with one of my dear friends.  She knew about our blog and had been reading some of our posts.  I was stunned when she asked me something along these lines:  "Did you know that the guy you've been writing about  — I think his name is Mark something — is coming to (name of the church) to do a conference?"  She had heard the advertisement on the local Christian radio station.  I hadn't heard about it, and I looked into it as soon as I got home.  Sure enough, Mark Driscoll was coming back to our area in early June (2009) to do a Song of Solomon conference.  Both the church website and Driscoll's website confirmed it.  I was shocked! 

Unbeknownst to me at the time, a member of the church hosting Driscoll's upcoming conference had been reading our blog and made copies of my post — Driscoll's Sex Tips and the Tipping Point — which she passed out to members of her Sunday School class.  She was obviously NOT a Driscoll fanatic, and some church members got very upset with her. 

It appears that the blog post was shared with the pastors because in very short order the conference was "postponed" (according to both websites – Driscoll's and the church's).  To my knowledge, it has never been rescheduled.  Funny thing, Mark Driscoll still came to our area around the same time that the SOS conference was to be held to speak at another conference called "Advance the Church".  Timmy Brister described it on his blog as follows:

"Some of you have asked for specific examples of what the greatest common denominator (the Gospel) can work to bring Southern Baptists and non-Southern Baptists together for the church and the Great Commission. Well, I would look no further than the Advance 09 Conference to be held in Durham, NC on June 4-6, 2009 at the Durham Performing Arts Center.

Sponsored by Resurgence, Desiring God, Acts 29, and Re:Lit (Crossway), this conference has perhaps the best line-up of any conference this year, including John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Ed Stetzer, Matt Chandler, Danny Akin, Bryan Chapell, J.D. Greear, Eric Mason, and Tyler Jones (five Southern Baptists and four non-Southern Baptists)."

From my vantage point, Driscoll's antics have certainly escalated since 2009.  Now that the Driscolls are going around the country peddling their wares (Real Marriage), I find it necessary to speak out once again.  Driscoll reminds me of the indulgence preachers that enraged Martin Luther.  They traveled about Europe conning people into buying worthless pieces of paper.  I believe Driscoll is doing something very similar as he attempts to sell sex and salvation in a little red book, at least that's how I see it.  I guess you could call Driscoll a 21st century "indulgence" preacher.

I am deeply disturbed by how Mark Driscoll is trying to influence my daughters' generation with his not so secret agenda, which appears to be: 

We love SEX (any form as long as it's between a married couple), BEER, INDIE ROCK, TATTOOS, BODY PIERCINGS, and DOCTRINE (Neo-Calvinist, of course) — probably IN THAT ORDER.  As we learned from the tragic testimonies published here last week, Mars Hill appears to play for keeps. Based on what these escapees have shared,  Driscoll's church reminds me of the Eagles' Hotel California  —  "You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave" — unless you are a fired elder whom Driscoll wanted to punch in the nose!

My daughter graduated from UNC last May and was involved with Campus Crusade (now "CRU") for all four years of college.  She will tell you that Cornerstone (as it is called at Carolina) was a wonderful organization, and I have been grateful for this ministry. Yes, Eagle, I know that experiences in this college ministry vary from campus to campus. 

Here is my concern.  When my daughter took on a leadership position in CRU, she was required to read Mark Driscoll's Radical Reformission before attending a leadership retreat at the start of the school year.  Now that my younger daughter is involved in CRU, I would like to know how closely aligned it is with Mark Driscoll.  

To end on a positive note, here is one of my favorite singers, Neil Diamond, performing the tune that inspired the title of this post.  This video was recorded in 1970, the same year Driscoll was born.  Diamond, who was around 29 years old, shares the background for the song.  I'm sure he didn't have anyone like 'sexpert' Mark Driscoll in mind when he wrote his lyrics about "Brother Love's Traveling Salvation Show".  Enjoy!


Lydia's Corner:  Isaiah 39:1-41:16   Ephesians 1:1-23   Psalm 66:1-20   Proverbs 23:25-28


Brother Mark’s Traveling Sex Show — 164 Comments

  1. Hmm… Deb, I don’t know if you’ve ever watched “Glee,” but there’s a character on it (Noah Puckerman) who is (I think) partly a parody of MD. (Not sure if you would feel OK about watching “Glee” – just saying.)

    If I can find a good clip of the character and a line about being a “dude” (complete with hideous Mohawk) I will post it.

  2. I agree with you. I don’t think that a student sent a text with that question. It’s really pretty obvious.

  3. numo,

    I have heard of “Glee” but have never watched it. Sounds like I’m not missing much. 🙂

    I’d love to see the clip! Please post the link.

  4. Anonymous,

    The more I think about it, the madder I get. Mark came and spoke to a crowd of single college students. The only ones in the room who were married were probably the leaders. I don’t blame them because I highly doubt they knew what Driscoll was up to.

  5. Why oh why do we talk about sex in such an erotic manner and then be angry when our singles in the congregation engage in sex??!!! If you start getting graphic isn’t that going to prompt a physical and physiological response? One of my favorite authors/speakers is an Episcopalian named Paul Zahl who asserts that “Sex is Christianity’s nightmare” I think he is right. Mark Driscoll no matter how you try to spin it, as a fallen creation we are all sexually broken. Our sex lives, Christian or non are never going to be how you claim they should be. Heck, MD even admits that things in his marriage were kind of a drag for quite some time. This over emphasis on sex no scratch that, This over emphasis on the best, most mind blowing, orgasmic sex being THE priority of a marriage is completely disastrous. Also, this non stop talk about sex is NOT orthodox in any sense be it reformed, lutheran, arminian. MD may believe in the 5 points of Calvinism but he is NOT in any sense of the word reformed. Plus, Dee have you noticed that most Neo Calvinistas use seeker sensitive techniques in order to try to motivate people to get involved in church? It is disturbing.

    Lastly, MD being rude and inappropriate is NOT the mark of man!!! I may not be a 5 pointer or reformed but I would sure have a lot more respect for Piper et. al if someone would stand up and point out this madness!!! (I make this comment in light of Pipers insistence that Christianity is masculine) I am not a huge fan of MacArthur because once again I am not a pre-trib calvinist but PRAISE GOD that he has enough courage to take a stand against this wacko in spite of MD’s supposed Calvnist beliefs. If you are a republican and a KKK member held a clan rally outside the White House and burned crosses in Obama’s yard would you go along with it just because you are a Republican? HECK NO! (Lord, I hope not) Just because two people are X doesn’t mean they have to agree on Y and Z and any other letter in the alphabet. So, why do all the Calvnistas have to get together and defend each other to the death when clearly the GC and T4G do not agree on everything. Many come from different church bodies!!! I think that the reason why they always defend each other to the death is because to them the gospel is Calvinism. As bizarre as JMac can seem to me at times, I think when it comes to the gospel he isn’t going to compromise that essential message from Good Friday to Easter Morning just because ole MD is a Calvinist and we have to stand up for our “boys”. Also, the Calvnistas all have this trait of being angry. The angry and controversial, the more press.

    Notice how we don’t hear rants from Tim Keller and Tullian Tchividian. I know they are part of GC but if they are Calvnista it has to be to a lesser extent because they don’t constantly try to be shocking. Ok, I am done here. Sorry to take up so much space but I am so tired of hearing about how my husband and I can have better sex and if we don’t I’m some how compromising with a Gospel issue. Can some one please tell me about Christ crucified for sinners? Not Christ crucified so I can glorify him by having sex with my husband 6 nights a week. You all realize that Dr. Laura gives better advice than this?

  6. I ended my Tipping Point post with these words:

    “God has recently opened my eyes to a very different man who is wreaking havoc worldwide in the Christian community. His imitators and supporters are growing by the day! What to do with Mark Driscoll? I choose to stand AGAINST him!!!

    Here’s a tip for you Mark . . . Take your CRASS LANGUAGE back to Seattle where it belongs and LEAVE US ALONE!!!”

    Just in case anyone is wondering, my sentiments HAVE NOT CHANGED!

  7. I love your comparison between this peddling of sex and the mediaeval selling of indulgences! So, teasing out the implications, I take it that this means that Driscoll and his ilk believe that a less than porn-o-magic sex life is the modern equivalent of purgatory, and if you give your money to Brother Mark, you won’t have to endure the torments any longer. Further, he is giving you an indulgence-in-advance to play round with forms of gratification that you thought were forbidden. Actually, I think that’s a pretty big clue into what’s going on here. Mark is a messed up guy who needs help, but unfortunately he’s found a way to profit from his dysfunctions, which makes repentance much more difficult.

    How can a person build a whole preaching career on subjects the Bible is largely silent about, or, as I believe, actually forbids in the light of larger principles like loving and honouring your spouse?

    BTW, you probably didn’t know this, but Neil Diamond is tremendously popular in Australia, and Hot August night still holds the record for staying #1 on the charts longer than anything else ever has. But I have never heard the story behind the song before. my husband (a keen Neil Diamond fan) is going to LOVE this clip when I show him!

  8. Deb – I absolutely love “Glee,” so I do think you’re missing something, but based on your previous post on MD and sex (about your daughter’s campus, etc.), I’m not sure that “Glee” would appeal to you. The humor can get pretty risqué at times – and btw, the “dudeliness” of the Noah Puckerman character is intended to be parodic/over the top. For one thing, he’s part of the glee club and so a de facto geek *and* someone who would be bullied if he was smaller and not so linebackerish in build.

  9. Hah! I remember being ever so slightly shocked when I 1st heard that song, but hey… it’s true in the theater and movie worlds.

    Eagle, I like your taste in B’way songs. 🙂

  10. Eagle, I am not a Merman fan, but I like a lot of the roles that were created for her – like Mama Rose.

    Patti LuPone: Incredibly talented actress!

  11. Robin, I couldn’t agree more: Zahl is the best. He challenges me every time I encounter his work. If I’ve said this once, I’ve said this a thousand times: The reason Tchividian and Keller are more graceful than the other GC calvinists is because they’re Presbyterians. They answer to authority higher than themselves. They are not allowed to “streamline the authority structure” of their congregation, and their congregation answers to other churches in their local, state, and national level councils. People having no intention of being accountable to something outside their control become baptist or non-denom. This is part of the problem: Put Driscol or Piper in a presbyterian denomination, they’ll be called on the carpet for their nonsense very fast, and they can loose their job over it. A friend of mine is a PCA minister, and they prosecute preachers veering from orthodox doctrine in their denominational councils. It’s a TON of red tape, but the results are worth it, imo.

  12. Miguel, I have been Baptist all my life but watching the nonsense that consistently comes out of the mouths of church leaders who have no church polity where they are accountable to someone else makes me realize that Presbyterian, Anglican, Lutheran, and heck even the Methodist polity is a good thing. It is scary the things that come of your mouth when you are accountable to no one. I know I know then they will say “Robin we are accountable to God not man.” My response would be, “gosh I would really be afraid then if I were you.”

  13. That’s an interesting observation about accountability for Presbyterians, and your raising the issue of denominations makes me realise something else. I can’t comment on the American scene, it’s a very different denominational mix over here, and baptists are a relatively small group. But I think it get’s back to the difference between Calvinists and Calvinistas. Here in Sydney the biggest evangelical group are the Anglicans, and believe me, Sydney Anglicans are not just low church, they’re low church doing the limbo! And they’re Calvinist, complementarian (Phillip Jensen is famous for remarking that’it’s a sin for a woman to preach, and a sin for a man to listen to her’) and cessationist. The Presbyterians are all of those things too. But when I wanted to do Hebrew as part of my theology degree, and needed to do it as a cross-institutional credit (i.e. do it at another college and have it credited back to my degree) I was quite happy to do it at the Prezzie college. I knew I would be treated graciously and respectfully despite some crucial theological differences. The Anglicans would have been much ruder about my belief that I could preach and teach in spite of being a woman. All i9 can put it down to is that denominations that are traditionally Calvinist have worn off some of the rough edges over centuries of pastoral experience. Individuals, or parts of denoms who have embraced Calvinism as a new discovery have no nuance or pastoral awareness in the way they apply it

    Or so it seems to me

  14. Lynne,
    I find it fascinating that the Anglicans are aggressive. Why is this? Also, aren’t Anglicans traditionally in the Calvinist camp as well? Or am I a bit misinformed?

  15. Bent and I attended MHC at the very beginning.
    We attended a premarital class lead by Mark b/c he wanted us to take it over. When he discussed sex I was uncomfortable (that’s putting it mildly). The couples laugh a lot, but I was not too sure if it was b/c they were uneasy, embarrassed, or just enjoying it. I never got the impression that making love was mutual in Mark’s understanding. I think he enjoyed the “shock value” that would attack a young crowd. I always got the impression that what M want M gets.
    Whenever Mark preached on Proverbs regarding women I felt “bound”. Whenever Mark preached on sex I felt “bound”. I wondered about the rightness or wrongness of my emotions. As time as gone by, I’ve learned to trust my emotions.

  16. Traditional Anglicans are inclined towards Calvinism, but if you compare the 39 articles to the Westminster confessio, for example, you’ll find that it tended to be implicit rather than explicit. Traditionally it was quite valid for an Anglican to be Arminian (like John Wesley (who was an Anglican priest) or anywhere in between. But Moore College is very strongly Calvinistic. I wonder if part of it also is because they are fighting other elements in their own denomination? (Sydney, for example is far more evangelical/Calvinist etc than any other diocese in Australia)

  17. My precious daughter said something to the effect, ”Students were encouraged to ask questions at the end, and one of the questions was ‘Is it O.K. for a married couple to engage in oral and anal sex?’” My initial thought was — if this was the kind of question students felt comfortable asking Mark Driscoll, what in the world did he say to these Christian singles?

    Sounds like the Origin of Deep Throat Driscoll to me…

  18. What is concerning to me is his ignorance about diseases associated with oral sex. Current data, available to us all, exposes the growing number of instances of throat and head cancers linked to oral sex. This cancer is cause by the same virus that causes cervical cancer. A report published in the Journal of Clinical Oncology estimates that the incidence of throat cancer amounts men by 2020 will become more common that HPV (human papillomavirus). A Centers for Disease Control and Prevention report estimates 20 million Americans currently have HPV infections most of the many verities will be cleared by the patients immune system,but not all. The reality is oral sex with an infected spouse or partner will transmit that virus into the mouth and possibly into the mouth of the other while kissing.

    A study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association research done by Ohio State University and the National Cancer Institute sampled 3500 people ages 14 to 69, found HPV in the mouths of 6.9% of those sampled. The highest incidence was in the age group 30 to 34 years old and then again those 60 to 64.

    There is much more to the studies, which breaks down the statistic in greater detail and much more data available.

    The bottom line is oral sex can increase your cancer risk. This is very serious stuff. I watched a man with a wife and 2 children fight throat cancer. He went through multiple surgeries, each carving away more and more of his jaw and face. The disfigurement and compromise to his speech, eating and later hygiene was gruesome, until he died. Mark are you paying attention?

  19. Lynne – The bit about the Anglicans being so (hmm) basically non-Anglican – in Oz! – surprises me.

    As for the Southern Baptists, they aren’t as big a swath of overall American Christianity as you might be thinking, but in the South, they’re a big deal.

    (Disclaimer: I’m from a northern state and while there are churches up here with “baptist” in their names, they are not Southern Baptist… Also, there are other Baptist bodies in the US, with different viewpoints to the southerners.)

  20. Bent – I think getting info. out about HPV is really important, but I’m not inclined to think that cancer rates are going to skyrocket due to more people (in general) engaging in oral sex.

    If MD were being truly responsible, he would be talking about getting screened and treated for STDs. (Ditto for the actual evangelical church; I don’t consider MH to be either evangelical or much of a church.)

  21. Bent Meyer,

    You have raised an extremely important point! Dee, who is a nurse by training, will be proud.

  22. FANTASTIC CLIP! Marvelous. Diamond could have been a tent preacher himself! or maybe a mega pastor!!!!

  23. If we’re talking about Christian married couples (as I think Mark is), then I’m not sure there’s much to worry about as far as oral sex spreading disease…unless all of these Christians had multiple partners before marriage, and that’s probably not going to be a large number.

    Wait, did I just stand up for MD? Crap! 🙂 (But I do agree that Mark should talk more about health issues involved w/that).

    My honest opinion…I do think Mark has somewhat of a point about the church not being open enough about sex. That doesn’t mean he needs to voluntarily bring up the topic of anal sex everywhere he goes; but, being part of the younger generation, I have seen firsthand that the church’s take on sex is too closed-off. It makes the church unable to help my sex-saturated generation, even the ones who are desperately fighting their temptations to become sexually active before marriage. That is a sad thing, and I applaud Mark for calling it out.

    The main problem I see is that he puts sex on some kind of pedestal, and seems to measure the mark of a good wife largely based on how she performs in bed. I say this after hearing stories online of women who became neurotic and worried about their marriages upon hearing Mark harp on the topic of men unsatisfied in the bedroom. (Also there’s that little matter of saying he wouldn’t have married his wife if he’d known about her sexual sin…from what I can tell, it’s left ambiguous whether he had more of a problem with the fact that she kept it from him, or more of a problem with the fact that it was a sexual sin by nature–in which case there is a pot and kettle set that he needs to be made aware of).

    My OTHER big problem has been mentioned by other bloggers; Mark set himself up as the sexpert on married bedroom activity at a time when he did not have that figured out in his own life. This is a tricky subject, because no pastor ever has everything in their life figured out. But Mark went out of his way to set himself up as the expert on married sex. Yet now in his book, he admits that, at that time, his experiences of good sex had all happened PRIOR to marriage, and post-marriage he had little experience with emotionally-healthy intimacy.

    Again, is that to say that he shouldn’t have preached on sex? Well, I don’t know if I would go that far. But the way he did it…looking back, it seems like more of a vendetta to fulfill his own frustrations than a genuine attempt to be real about a tricky issue. ESPECIALLY since he tried so hard to install himself as the only pastor out there who would address it the “right” way!

  24. Paul’s charge to Timothy was, “preach the Word.” No where in Scripture is the command to teach Christians (or any other for that matter) about sex. Many pastors have “drifted away” from the Gospel. What comes from the mouth, comes from the heart.

  25. sad observer,

    I really appreciate your comment! Thanks for bringing to the fore several perplexing issues with Mark Driscoll. I find him to be a very confusing man.

  26. I love my mellow little PCA church. And I have never heard the name of the stated clerk (head honcho) of the PCA mentioned in a year and a half. I looked it up once but then forgot it. Not like being in SGM and hearing CJ this and CJ that for 8 years straight.

  27. randall slack,

    Great point! Can you imagine how the celibate Apostle Paul would react to Driscoll’s antics from the pulpit and beyond?

    I especially liked your comment:

    “What comes from the mouth, comes from the heart.”

  28. I can’t even imagine sex talk in our PCA church. I do however, remember home groups at our SGM church talking about sex on couples nights on several occasions, which was extremely embarrassing. Blech. 🙁

  29. On a semi-related note, I see nothing wrong with Beer and Indie Rock (provided in its proper place i.e. not Lord of your life or object of worship). I have even gone out for drinks with guys from church, but I can see such activity being problematic if it is occurring as part of an official church event, not an individual night out kind of event.

  30. Instead of “WHAT YOUR PASTOR WAS AFRAID TO TELL YOU ABOUT LOVE AND SEX” it should be “What your pastor had too much prudence, discernment and common decency to tell you about love and sex.”

  31. @Miguel and Robin: spot on about the problem behind the problem, no real accountability ABOVE them. The excesses we see in Mark have happened and will continue to happen wherever this situation exists. Big reason why many are fleeing non-denoms and independents for something more solid, IMO.

  32. Virginia Knowles,


    Mark has a way of pitting cool dude preachers against all other pastors and children against their parents. These are such unhealthy and destructive divisions in the body of Christ.

  33. GregR,

    I’m sure Bent Meyer will agree with you about the accountability problem. Driscoll should have listened to an older and wiser man… Hopefully, one day Mark will realize his terrible error in judgment.

  34. Semantics question. When MD discusses SEX we CAN do, does he really mean sex we MAY do? Fact is, many married couples eventually face real issues of CAN we in one form or another due to health issues– does Driscoll try to help those couples maintain love, faithfulness and companionship when they “can’t”?

  35. When I was nineteen, 60 years ago at an all women’s college, I remember learning about the interesting stuff about sex, beyond the biological basics by reading a dog-eared copy of Van Velde’s ideal marriage that was passed around my dorm. I think that was a definite improvement over Mark Driscoll!

  36. Miguel
    I used to fear denominational politics. But there is value in having a higher authority to which to appeal. I was once involved in a brouhaha at a Baptist church. When I told an Anglican pastor about it, he asked me why I did not appeal to the Southern Baptist Convention. I realized he had no idea about the SBC although Al Mohler sometimes acts like a Pope.

  37. Lynne
    That is most interesting. I am going to post tomorrow about an exchange that i had with an Anglican pastor and my deep disappointment in his response.

  38. Joanne

    I cannot comprehend, for the life of me, how I could stand up and teach on the same trajectory as Driscoll. I truly believe he likes the attention he gets when he “shocks” people. Then he jumps back behind the Bible and says “prove me wrong.” Let’s start with the issue of humility and then proceed…

  39. The cries for Piper, or somebody “higher” to step in and clean this up are hopelessly empty. It’s not really his place, there is no hierarchy that allows this ALREADY in place. He will not overstep this, and everyone knows it. So the crazy train continues on until… well, we’ll see. It’s not so much Piper’s fault, it is a systemic fault, probably an over-reaction to abuses by denom’s with a rigid hierarchy. Doesn’t look like the ‘cure’ is any better than the alleged disease to me.

  40. Bent
    You are singing my song. When we did our initial post on this matter I discussed the health issues involved in anal sex. I had been a public health nurse and STDs and secondary disease causation were often discussed, as well as seen.

    Driscoll couldn’t care less about diseases that happen in the future. He is a here and now man. If he wants to say or do it, he does and deals with the fallout later. He usually deals with it by blaming everybody else for the incident. Driscoll is a wuss. He talks the big talk and then hides behind his wife’s skirt yelling no fair, trying to deflect the criticism. I am referring to the Brit debacle. He whined the guy was naughty for not letting Grace talk when it was he who over-talked his wife.

  41. Virginia
    Lots of people out here are looking for mellow after being beaten up for years. Glad you found such a church. We are going to try to address this in the next couple of weeks. We have an idea currently in development. Stay tuned…

  42. The Bent Meyer streamlining of leadership fiasco shows that “leadership by a group of peers” or “accountability to local elders” is very shallow and ineffective when dealing with a very strong personality at the leader position. He, or she, will find ways around it, kind of like the strongest on the island (Lord of the Flies) will always rise up: you need an adult in oversight or there WILL be hooopla.

  43. I think a lot of Christians obsess about sex (and, as an extension, gender) way, way, WAY too much. Mark Driscoll is only the end result of one strain of that obsession. The demonization of gays and lesbians in the church is another. The obsession with purity and courtship and keeping girls separate is another. (And I’m old enough to remember when divorce was such a taboo that the divorced person was treated like the gay or lesbian person today.)

    None of this (with the exception of divorce) is part of what is recorded in the Gospels that Jesus taught. That’s worth pondering upon for a moment. Jesus said a lot of things, but he didn’t talk about sexual positions or gays and lesbians or insist that women and girls needed to be protected and kept pure. What Jesus taught and I try to follow (even though I consider myself an agnostic on some days, trending over to atheist on days when Jesus’ alleged followers annoy me) is: Love your neighbor as yourself–love your enemies even! Doing those works listed in Matthew 25:31-46: feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, etc. This is a better way of going through the world than grubbing for money (secular) or piling up riches for Jesus (“Christian”). And, this is the thing. I don’t expect ANY reward for what I do, I do these things because it’s just the right thing to do.

    And it’s far better than obsessing about sex and gender!

  44. Dee,

    I loved this comment Driscoll made in the Brierley interview.

    Driscoll: “What I say is, and you’re not being fair, in fact, you’re being sort of scandalous and you’re being immature about the issue, so I don’t really appreciate that. Um, you’re going for one or two pages in the book where we answer a very common question that Christian couples have, and you’re trying to put a little shock around that for the radio…”

    Driscoll accused Brierly of being SCANDALOUS and putting a LITTLE SHOCK AROUND IT? The first thing I thought of when I heard that IDIOTIC comment was this Q&A session that occurred three years ago.

  45. Can some one please tell me about Christ crucified for sinners? Not Christ crucified so I can glorify him by having sex with my husband 6 nights a week. You all realize that Dr. Laura gives better advice than this? — Robin

    Robin, My Little Pony fanfic gives better advice than this.

  46. Former Baptist
    I have no trouble with any of these things so long as they don’t become the new legalism. See how it works. You come to a church and you get beer, Indie, tattoos and explicit talks on sex. But, then it becomes necessary to do beer, Indie, tattoos and explicit talks on sex so that everyone knows you are legalistic about not being legalistic.

    Also, taking this a step further, it appears to this watcher that beer, Indie, et al are becoming covers for a newer and deeper form of legalism of secondary issues such as gender roles, authority, etc. In fact, my radar now goes up when I hear of such churches because underneath I know I will find a more hard nose doctrinal stand.

  47. Dee,

    Maybe beer has a numbing effect on the brain that makes this nonsense more palatable? Just a guess…

  48. Greg
    Just this past week, my husband and I were discussing this problem. I have become waaaaay more sympathetic to those who find refuge in the liturgical traditions. This stuff has been vetted over centuries and some kookball pastor can’t suddenly decide to throw it out in favor of his latest kick on doctrine.

  49. Maybe sex does sell and makes pastors a celebrity, but hello!, where is the Gospel? Where are the teachings centered on Jesus? If you want talk about sex (especially anal sex), fine, but don’t slap a Jesus-sticker on it and call it a Christian teaching. Jesus or the Apostles didn’t talk in such graphic manners. They kept our eyes upward towards Heaven. Because we know what you spend most of your time talking about, that is what you will be thinking about. And to sexualize young, single, adults (college students) with this kind of talk is a huge, honking stumbling block.

  50. Hey, I just realized something… I hear MD talking about men going out for a beer… Is it OK for women, too? I haven’t heard him say yes or no on that one 🙂

  51. Robin,

    I’ll look into it. You know, beer has a lot of calories. Mars Hill women have to be VERY careful about not letting themselves go…

    Oh, and since they are expected to be BABY FACTORIES, alcoholic consumption is a definite NO NO! I guess it’s just the boys who go out and throw down a cold one.

    You do raise an interesting question.

  52. In non-hierarchical denoms, there have been two-three traditions (esp in Baptist life). One is rule by the pastor or by the deacons or elders, picked by the pastor, and so his yes-men. The second major line is total democracy, based on the concept that every member of the church is a priest from the theological concept of the priesthood of each and every believer. Some churches had a democratically elected deacon or elder board, that operated as the representatives of the congregation. As churches became larger, there is a tendency toward an elected church council that operates between meetings of the congregation.

    The problem is that MH and other megas have established themselves as pastor control churches, or pastor appointed elder controlled churches. The result is that there are no checks or balances on the pastor. Symptoms include pastor’s family members on the church payroll, high salaries, squashing of any dissent, controlling covenants, strong church discipline systems.

    BTW, in a church where I was a member, there were some who pushed for a church discipline committee, and it was tried. Earlier, there had been a few people who had been called before a group of staff and chewed out (generally without real cause!), and those pushing for the discipline committee generally included those who had been involved. When the committee was appointed, the first case resulted in the committee suggesting that the complainant need to modify their behavior, not the target of the complaint!!! Shortly thereafter, several families who wanted the discipline system left the church and peace has returned, although those who were kangaroo-courted before still have hurts.

  53. I don’t know about beer at the bar for women, but from what I heard, wine in the bedroom is a big, ‘yes, yes’ according to Driscoll because it makes the sex better.
    At least that is my understanding.

  54. Throughout this post, you’ve managed to stagger self-righteousness upon self-righteousness upon self-righteous conjecture. Your primary allegation is that Driscoll is self-serving at best, and a peddler of peripheral if not damnable sexual subject matter. Fine. But in the midst of your ranting, you’ve managed to levy a litany of allegations against this man that simply aren’t provable, though you may not be interested in factual things at the expense of subjective unctions. Here’s the rub: you assume Driscoll planted a question about oral and anal sex (the legitimacy of this question is another discussion) in the midst of dialogue he seemed “nervous” about having? Your assumptions have fallen in on themselves here.

    If you want to to lambaste the guy for being foul-mouthed, loose, intoxicated by culture, too concerned with his persona and his own narrative (you should see the trailer for his recently published “Elephant Room” discussion series–it’s almost a parody of his own self-congratulatory tone) then substantiate all of these things with facts. As a father myself, your mother’s lament sounds like a friend’s incessant whine. You seem offended that you were excluded form your daughter on multiple fronts: 1.) You were asked to sit Driscoll’s talk out and 2.) your daughter heard Driscoll talk about anal sex, before she heard you talk about it.

    These slights don’t warrant the contribution you’ve made to the collective character assassination that we all are bearing witness to–your comment section (brave and anonymously so)being a microcosm of the much larger piling on.

  55. @Dee: Hmmm, hadn’t thought about this way before: harsh authoritarianism (quasi-shepherding) washed down with nice micro-brewery beer, and if that buzz doesn’t do it for ya, well, lets’ talk about some RIGHTEOUS sex for awhile (in detail). I think I just threw up in my mouth a little bit…..

  56. Bob

    As to your quip about anonymity, how many Bobs are there in the world? Did you know that they named a bridge “Bob” in Colorado?

    Secondly, we give our names to this blog to testify to our commitment to those who have been harmed by ministries such as Driscoll and are now justifiabley concerned with sharing their names because, believe it or not, there are insulting people who comment on this blog, causing even more pain. Here is a term you might understand. They are “functioning under our cover and authority.” (Folks this is a joke).

    Thirdly, Deb speculated about the question. Speculation is an interesting past time for Americans watching today’s celebrity culture invading the church. How many conferences/church services have you attended in which the first question of the night is about anal sex?

    If it is many, then I am going to the wrong conferences. I find it odd, and given Driscoll’s penchant for talking sex, it is a reasonable thing to ask.

    Lastly, we do not need to assassinate Driscoll’s character. He appears to be on a highly successful mission to commit character suicide. And, one day, if something terrible happens, there will be no one able to make the excuse “But I didn’t see it coming. He was such a nice man.”

  57. Bob,

    Do you have a daughter, and if so, how old is she?

    Driscoll’s voice sounded nervously excited. I guess he gets a charge out of watching college students’ faces when he shocks and awes them. It’s too bad the audio that was uploaded on the Cornerstone website disappeared shortly after it was posted, like so many other resources that feature Driscoll’s antics. Driscoll DOES NOT own his words!

    It never ceases to amaze me how Driscoll sycophants try to defend him. Good try, but your approach isn’t working…

  58. Arce
    Great comment. “Those pushing for the discipline committee generally included those who had been involved. When the committee was appointed, the first case resulted in the committee suggesting that the complainant need to modify their behavior, not the target of the complaint!!! Shortly thereafter, several families who wanted the discipline system left the church and peace has returned, although those who were kangaroo-courted before still have hurts.”

  59. Dee,

    Did you catch the “character assassination” charge leveled against me?

    FYI – I’m picking up my sweet daughter on Centennial Campus in a bit and taking her to lunch. I’ll be checking in via my iPhone. 🙂

  60. Bob,
    Deb and Dee have used facts upon facts to support their concerns.
    Your accusations ring hollow and your name-calling exposes you for what you are.

    It’s not offense at not being included, it is real concern for the health and well being of our younger generation who are being exposed to false teaching from a man who has built an empire on selling sex. (Not as big an empire as Hugh Hefner’s, mind you. But give him some time.)

    It is highly questionable that single college students, at every campus, would come up with the anal sex question FIRST, every time. What Driscoll did STINKS like a set up, to prime the pump, to get the wild and crazy sex talk going.

    I’m inclined to agree that the man cannot be trusted as a sexpert. A sexpervert, perhaps, because that’s the fruit that is growing and the water that is flowing, or shall I say gushing from mars hill. It is bitter, worldly water that is contaminating the gospel they preach and making it putrid.

    And I just love how you attack motherhood, and indirectly womanhood. Your fruit shows that you are caught up in the “Men and fathers know best. Women and mothers are deceived and their judgement cannot be trusted” camp.

    Well, keep it up, Bob.
    Mother lions and grizzly bears have only begun to go after the wolves in sheep’s clothing (LIKE DRISCOLL) who are devouring our young with their perversion and gross need for constant attention and control.

  61. Deb
    Now, now-Bob, who post so bravely under his easily recognizable name, said you were assassinating Driscoll’s character. Surely there must be many nice reasons that some of Driscoll’s talks disappear from the web. Maybe he forgot to say please and thank you thereby risking offense?

    I guess Driscoll is fearful, along with the sponsoring organizations, that people are going to “character assassinate” him. Thankfully, there are people (maybe they are terrorists in Bob’s world) who find these deleted talks and put them on the internet. You know, the famous Song of Solomon talk in Scotland is now up there so that all of these anonymous people can continue on in their character assassination.

    Back to deciding which drawer the cheese grater goes in. I have been praying and have not received an answer.

  62. On the other hand, a president of a Christian school I attended opined that sex, between married couples, should only take place via the “missionary position.”
    Years later I’m still befuddled over the “missionary” reference.

  63. Mara,

    Love your mother lion and grizzly bear reference! This mother bear will do WHATEVER it takes to protect her cubs against wolves.

  64. All I can say is AMEN to those of you who are doing everything they can to show MD for who and what he truly is! I’m so sad to see so many people hanging on to his every word. From MD’s ridiculousness to the Mars Hill church’s practices, things are getting out of hand and very “cult-like”. Have you seen this video of MD claiming he “sees things”?

    Oh yes, I’m just so SURE God is allowing you to see other people’s sins. It’s very clear in the video that he is LYING about this “gift”. It is all manipulations, folks. My favorite part is when he says, “I’m not a freak, I don’t talk about this, if I talked about it I’d end up like one of those guys on TV.” What?!! He is wearing an headset with a mic and his church videotapes his sermons and puts them on YouTube. So…. you know it’s not a secret. I’m so tired of the filth that comes out of his mouth. He acts like he is obsessed with sex and the woman’s role in marriage. Can’t he talk about anything else? Why can’t so many people use their OWN gift of discernment to see that he is NOT a good Christian role model and pastor. He is manipulative and has his own agenda, this is not good leadership especially for new Christians.

  65. Should a wife submit to a beer? Oh, My (chuckle) Part of that answer’s clearly going to depend on what kind of a beer we’re dealing with here . . . .I don’t known what the person had in mind when they asked that question…if the beer’s not asking her to sin, she might endure for a season…

  66. Robin: Lutheran’s don’t have a real polity: One of our distinctive is that we’re free to organize however, which is why some of our groups have bishops and others are nearly fully autonomous. Anglicans and Methodists are Episcopal structures, in which the Bishop is nearly a dictator. Presbyterian structure is the only one where everybody submits to one another, and every leader answers to somebody.

    GregR: I believe there is no such thing as a non-denominational church. They are all Baptists in denial. People are starting to catch on the the fact that they’ve been duped: They would never attend a church with “Baptist” on the sign, but where they have been going has no functional difference. Plus the arrogant hubris of “all those dead traditionalists in their denominations! We’ll show them. We’re gonna be the first generation to get it right and escape religious politics!” becomes transparent quickly to those who get involved there.

    Dee: Church politics are inevitable. We haven’t been able to escape it for 2000 years, and we’re not about to start anytime soon. Being in a denomination helps ensure that you are at least working together with the masses for a common goal, and despite the personal conflicts, the total sum of the effort is strengthened through collaboration. Non-denominational churches are intrinsically self-focused and nearly always give less to missions (yes, there are MAJOR exceptions). The principle behind the Presbyterian theory is that all churches ought to have a “connectedness” where they share in the responsibilities of organizing and deploying the army of Christs disciples to be about the work of His mission. Works great in theory, at least.

  67. Deb wrote:

    “Deb on Tue, Feb 07 2012 at 10:40 am

    I’ll look into it. You know, beer has a lot of calories. Mars Hill women have to be VERY careful about not letting themselves go…

    Oh, and since they are expected to be BABY FACTORIES, alcoholic consumption is a definite NO NO! I guess it’s just the boys who go out and throw down a cold one.

    You do raise an interesting question.”

    They just might make an exception for us if it is Calvinus beer…

  68. Bob: I actually resonate with the warning to make sure that we are not as the Pharisee saying “I’m glad I’m not THAT GUY….” Admonition taken, and thanx.
    I think you miss some of Dee’s post: why does a pastor, ANY pastor need to be going into such graphic detail sexually in a crowd of college aged singles ?? Is that kind of approach even a Christ centered approach ?? Are the choices 1) don’t talk about sex at all and treat the topic as shameful and dirty OR 2) go all HolyHoward Stern on folks ?? Is this the best we can do ?
    I don’t know whether the anal/oral sex question was “staged” or not, but I’d say its prominence in the question queue is stinky (questionable) and shows poor judgment at a minimum.

    Do we really have to PUBLICLY answer everyone’s question, anyway ??

  69. Anonymous
    Funny comment-thanks for the laugh-liked the Calvinius beer. You buy that to match your ESV Bible into which your ever pregnant wife carefully placed the Institutes. SOLA TULIPO

  70. On a serious note, we have some baking dishes I’m looking at, for which we seem to have no place in the new kitchen.

  71. @Miguel: there may be a non-denom out there, but it will either 1)grow into one (while still claiming non-denom status for the reasons you mentioned) OR 2)it will die out. And during its life, long or short, everything it has said about “dead traditions” will almost certainly apply in some way, to itself.

  72. Could you guys SHUT UP ALREADY about the beer….it’s 11am on a workday, and I’m miles and hrs away from a frosty pale ale….doh…did it to myself…. 🙁

  73. I understand, in part, where Driscoll is headed with this approach.

    Sexuality is a hot topic. Have a class on it, a talk on it and you’re guaranteed to fill the room.

    One time I taught a Sunday School semester on the Book of Acts. One of the other classes at the same hour was on dating and sexuality. I had 5 people. That class had tons. And we were a fairly small church at the time.

    Sexuality is also a topic that our current generation needs to hear about. There are so many negative voices and wrong things being said – sometimes by unfaithful elements in the church. I know of a conference that is being put on in Georgia soon at a Baptist Church, and one can tell from the promotional packages and other items that the messages heard there may not be biblically faithful.

    So, it is an interesting and timely topic.

    But rather than approaching it soberly and with the grandeur and balanced perspective it deserves, guys like Driscoll and Ed Young, Jr. are approaching it from an explicit angle, like shock jocks in a way.

    I believe that this approach does not achieve what even its proponents hope.

    The NT is a good guide in this area. Christians in the First Century lived in times that were every bit as explicit as today. And yet, when we read the instructions they are given in the NT, we don’t read the approach that Driscoll and others employ. We read direct, clear teaching that is respectful.

    We should not exchange forthright sobriety and decorum for loud and explicit, and when we get a big crowd exclaim that we having an influence.

    Maybe we should consider what kind of crowd we are generating.

    Maybe we should give some thought to who is NOT attending or listening to us because, perhaps, they think we are less than serious.

    You know who else has come out with a book about marriage recently? Tim Keller. I have seen him discuss it with opinion makers on a couple of TV shows recently. I have read excerpts of the book. It is a serious book. Keller is a serious man. He is considered a serious man. Serious people listen to him.

    That’s what is being lost in all of this, and Driscoll, Young and others don’t even realize it.

    They are not considered serious outside their own small kingdoms, or the ones they can gin up on college campuses or conferences due to the shock value they offer.

    In the main, they are seeking to base what they are saying on the Bible. That is not insignificant in today’s culture. But making it weird or adding to the Bible detract from what they are saying.

    It’s so sad that they are doing such damage and missing such a great opportunity.

  74. Bob: “As a father myself, your mother’s lament sounds like a friend’s incessant whine.”

    You know, I saw an old pirate movie once, one made a long time before the Johnny Depp ones.

    It was long enough ago and I was young enough that a certain line really bothered me.

    Here’s the set up. One fellow is talking to another fellow about how he needed to respect some female because she was so-and-so’s daughter. The other fellow quipped, “One man’s daughter is another man’s whore.”

    THIS is where Driscoll’s pornification is taking us. THIS is where Driscoll’s incessant drive to reduce all wives to strip tease artists and personal whores who will do all the things that prostitues traditionally do, like anal sex.

    Bob, as a father, has basically declared that the pornification of women is all right and even godly. One man’s daughter is another man’s whore, pole dancer, stripper, oral and anal sex provider. Bob’s judgment, as a father, has decided that Christian women rising up against the pornification of their daughters, of all God’s daughters, that these women are whiners. Instead of seeing the fight against abuse and the porn culture invading the church and the sanctity of marriage, he sees women whining.

    If you do have any daughters…
    God help those girls because your view of women is scandalaous and so far away from anything godly… just… God help your daughters.

  75. Anonymous Tue, Feb 07 2012 at 12:13 pm referenced a conference coming up in a Baptist church in Georgia. The conference is an attempt to bring together people from a variety of perspectives on the issue of the relationship of churches to people who have a partner-preference identity different from the one most Christians appear to have. The intent is to have a serious discussion, based on the Bible and our theology, about this issue and the surrounding issues and not to push a single understanding or position.

  76. Two solid quotes I stumbled upon instead of working…..oops

    Christians are like snow covered dung; it is the purity of the covering which the Father sees. -Luther-
    There is nothing more ugly than a Christian orthodoxy without understanding or without compassion.
    -Francis Schaeffer-

  77. The abeerer can’t do so without pastoral permission. So it’s best if the wife seeks out a church where abeer isn’t dismissed like “beers will be beers”. Sorry Greg last beer reference from me

  78. Shameless plug for two EXCELLENT books on marriage:

    Gary Thomas “Sacred Marriage”
    Tim Keller “The Meaning of Marriage”

    The Keller book includes some great material about, and for, singles. He gives the role of a single a very Kingdom of God flavored interpretation: they aren’t just “on hold” until wedded bliss.

  79. Dave: if you lapse, the next round(z) are on you…. and G-money don’t drink no stinkie brew…. ya wid’ me, bro ??

  80. It seems to me that what is being taught by Driscoll is an extreme over-reaction to prudish, negative attitudes toward sex. It is one thing to make it seem dirty, it is another to parade it around the way he is doing. Remember the verse in Proverbs that says “the way of a man with a maiden” is a thing of wonder? and beauty? Driscoll is taking that which is sacred, holy, beautiful, and PRIVATE and making it something to be gawked at by the world, both believing and unbelieving. Mark… flash. Marriage is not just about sex. Sex also serves a bigger purpose, namely babies, and if college students are single they do not need to be titillated by what goes on in his bedroom, or anyone else’s.

  81. Sex is also used to serve false bigger purpose$,, as with the Children of gOd I was remembering yesterday. They had the girls serving as modern cult prostitute$ to bring in $$ for the cult…. Oh well maybe that’s off topic here…

  82. Dave,
    Others might thing you are off-topic.

    I don’t.

    I’ve compared the grooming that Mars Hill does to women to prepare them to be their husbands’ personal whores with temple prostitution and the Jezebel spirit that teaches Christians to pornicate mentioned in Revelation 2:20.

    Yeah, I know. I’m one of the ones who says outrageous things around here. Sometimes I do it just to show those who want to accuse Dee and Deb of being outrageous what outrageous REALLY looks like.

    Dee and Deb keep things respectable around here. They are not outrageous. They are just telling it like it is.

  83. Miguel – I don’t think Anglican and Methodist churches work like that (dictatorships) in practice… any more than the ELCA is a “dictatorship.” 😉

  84. All I have to say is that said beer had best be a “joy to pastor” or it will find itself being tossed out the back door into the garbage pile!!

  85. RE: Bent Meyer on Tue, Feb 07 2012 at 02:29 am:

    I’m very skeptical about an alleged “link” between oral sex and cancer. I’ve heard this before on right-wing Christian radio here in Southern Calif. There was a time when reputable medical authorities also swore up and down that you need 8 glasses of water daily in order to stay healthy. Over time however, it was shown to be bad science.

    Good science goes where the data leads (sans rabbit holes) and does not use torture to extract a hasty confession. In my opinion, the link between ingesting HPV and contracting mouth and throat cancer will prove to be casual and not causal.

  86. If the “barrel” (can’t the other word or i gots to buy Greg a couple) WANTS to roll out the front door, all it has to do is ask. But there’s a catch. Of course, any barrel which would ask THAT is failing to be a “joy to pastor”, and soooo…

  87. All MD does (and EY Jr.) is appeal to the prurient interests of the readers/listeners. Nothing more. Nothing less. It sells- books, speaking engagements, religion.

    Whatever it takes, right? The ends justify the means. That’s their rationale.

  88. My experience at MH is that they tend to have a guys night out or a girls night out, organized as part of the Community group. They once organized an “after party” for everyone to go to a bar/restaurant after church service, but they changed the venue at the last minute.

  89. The connundrum: The Bible, outside of Song of Solomon which implies but does not explicitly state, says almost nothing about how sexual activity is to take place.

    But I would stand with Deb concerning some inherent medical dangers with certain sexual activities.

    ( Can hardly believe I’m agreeing with Deb: she who is a fellow alumnus with Mark Dever. -:) )

  90. Dee,

    Muff told me to tell you that God told him that yer spoesta’ put the cheese grater in the third drawer down, left hand side.
    ===> (idiot smiley face goes here)

  91. Muff
    Oh thank heavens! I was about to write a book called Cheese Graters and the Silence of God-subtitled Where does God stand on the shredded versus grated issue.

  92. Arce:

    I referenced that as a comparison to an approach to sexuality that is unfaithful biblically.

    To suggest or “dialogue” that homosexual unions are acceptable to God is contrary to the creative order and clear biblical teaching.

    Being faithful to Christ means teaching what Christ and His apostles taught about such subjects.

    The church should not present a weird or salacious view of sexuality. And it should not present or have dialogues about sexuality outside God’s creative order as affirmed by Christ and his apostles.

  93. Randall Slack,

    “What comes from the mouth, comes from the heart.”

    How sexually deviant or obsessed would Driscoll have to be to travel around, for years now, promoting anal and oral sex? Your comment goes along with what I’ve been thinking about Driscoll. I think shock and attention is a large part of why Driscoll does what he does. But the bigger reason is his obvious sexual hang-ups. Makes me wonder what he struggles with in his heart or behind closed doors.

  94. The discussion is not about what is or is not acceptable to God, but how should Christians relate to sinners (which includes all of us!) who happen to engage in certain kinds of relationships.

  95. Dee, I would love to opine here about Mark Driscoll and all his antics, but today is Day 1 of the Ed Young traveling sex show called, Sexperiment. Seven straight days of sex. It’s National Marriage Week, so obviously, we need to coincide with NMW and have 7 straight days of sex. And then, it’ll be Valentine’s Day. So clever and so cool how God works these sorts of things out so Ed and Mark can sell books.

    Anyway, it’s Day 1. I gotta get home….:)

  96. Former Fellow
    Oh, I forgot about that. Are you praying about the various aspects of the encounter. Do not forget to Tebow in your room prior to any “discourse.”

  97. Numo
    Dee is the first one in line for any vaccination, for her and her kids. Hubby is fine with everything but the flu shot which he claims makes him feel sick! But he is now forced to get it.

  98. HowDee YaAll, 

    Mark Driscoll of (Acts 29) Mars Hill Church in Seattle asked ‘the question’ directly to legendary preacher — Pentecostal Bishop T.D. Jakes, during an interview at the recent Elephant Room conference * at the First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Fla. : “So you believe,” said Driscoll, that “there’s one God, three Persons — Father, Son and Holy Spirit? You believe Jesus was fully God, fully Man?” Jakes didn’t flinch, so after years of rumors about private assurances, he publicly affirmed that he believes in the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, “Absolutely.” he said…  Jakes also said: “I got kind of quiet about it for a while. Because when you are a leader and you are in a position of authority, sometimes you have to back up and ponder for a minute, and really think things through.”

    Driscoll is Boss, huh? ( a mouse in da the Elephant room? -grin-)…back up and ponder for a minute, and really think things through?!?


    ♪♪♪…Is it a dirty story of a dirty verby preacher man, and his clinging Acts 29 satellite church simply doesn’t understand?!? ♪♪♪…He wants to be a Calvinesta satellite preacher man? ♪♪♪…Doo da ta doo do-do…

    …your Calvinesta satellite preacher man?

    Oh-e-Oh, Oh! Oh!


    hahahahahahaha ;~)

    Sopy ♥,†  


    * This annual event brings together Christian leaders from a variety of backgrounds to discuss tough subjects. 

  99. Arce:

    i am having a discussion with others about what pleases God. I do not think it pleases God to be salacious when discussing sexuality, nor do I think it pleases God to deny what he says or be ambiguous about what He says.

    Both errors have the same root cause – trying to get the approval of man. In one case, it’s to try to appear cool. In the other, it’s to be so afraid of man as to deny what God has said.

  100. Randall Slack,

    “What comes from the mouth, comes from the heart.” — Wendy

    Given who we’re talking about, more like “what goes into the mouth.”

    …today is Day 1 of the Ed Young traveling sex show called, Sexperiment. Seven straight days of sex. It’s National Marriage Week, so obviously, we need to coincide with NMW and have 7 straight days of sex. — Former Fellow

    So Grinning Ed is at it again. The first time he preached his Seven Day Sex Challenge (from a bed replacing the pulpit), I was attending the Mass of Christ the King on the last Sunday before Advent, along with other Western-Rite liturgical churches. Yes, he issued his Seven Day Sex Challenge on the Feast Day of Christ the King.

  101. I’ve compared the grooming that Mars Hill does to women to prepare them to be their husbands’ personal whores with temple prostitution and the Jezebel spirit that teaches Christians to pornicate mentioned in Revelation 2:20.

    Yeah, I know. I’m one of the ones who says outrageous things around here. — Mara

    From someone else who likes to say outrageous things, you have no quarrel from me. Now THAT’s Outrageous!

    (Though the term “Jezebel Spirit” has been so overused in the Pentecostal Paranoia crowd it has ceased to have any meaning other than a handy beatdown for a female you don’t like.)

  102. It seems to me that what is being taught by Driscoll is an extreme over-reaction to prudish, negative attitudes toward sex. It is one thing to make it seem dirty, it is another to parade it around the way he is doing. — Justabeliever

    “The Devil sends temptations/sins in matched opposing pairs, so in fleeing from one we run to the other.”
    — attributed to C.S.Lewis or G.K.Chesterton

    Remember the verse in Proverbs that says “the way of a man with a maiden” is a thing of wonder? and beauty? — Justabeliever

    These days, to find a maiden of wonder and beauty I have to go to My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic episodes on YouTube.

  103. Sopy –

    “*This annual event brings together Christian leaders from a variety of backgrounds to discuss tough subjects.”

    Is it just me or are Christian leaders trying to make the Good News something other than good? I just don’t think that Jesus intended anything to be tough. Leaders today want everything to be “tough” or “difficult.” They prime their introductions to conferences with these words. I guess this is to get the masses to believe that we all need “their help” to understand anything. I better sign up for the conference so I am sure to understand the “tough” issues that Jesus revealed to so many common people in his day.

  104. With the term “Jezebel Spirit” overused, how about “Sapphira Spirit” as a replacement?
    I’m dead earnest about this.
    Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.”
    Acts 5:9
    So this answers my question of “How many excommunications were there in Acts 1-28 churches, and who carried them out?
    Any others anyone can think of, let me know.

  105. HUG: “From someone else who likes to say outrageous things, you have no quarrel from me. Now THAT’s Outrageous!
    (Though the term “Jezebel Spirit” has been so overused in the Pentecostal Paranoia crowd it has ceased to have any meaning other than a handy beatdown for a female you don’t like.)”

    I was going to say “the one” who says outrageous things then I remember you, HUG, fondly, and had to change it to “one of the ones” who says outrageous things around here.


    Yes, Jezebel spirit has been over used and MISused by men on witch hunts for unsubmissive woman and the ever evil controlling woman.
    The problem it, the Jezebel spirit, as described in Revelation 2:20, has nothing to do with controlling or submissive women.
    Rather, it is about a woman who was enticing Christians to go headlong into sexual sins.
    The fact of the matter is…
    Driscoll is far more in danger of entertaining a Jezebel spirit with his SoS teachings and “I see things” porno vision than any woman he has ever railed against.

    Just saying…

  106. Mara
    I had NO IDEA someone had actually coined the phrase “Sapphira Spirit”. I suppose I’ll be hearing from Charis’ friendly PR guy now, over trademark infringement. Really good take on the lack of proper fear in marriages, and the watering down of “fear” into “respect” in Eph 5 translations.

  107. Hmmmmm… The title of this thread is “Brother Mark’s Traveling Sex Show” huh? Well kidz, one can certainly see why the title would elicit offense and yes, even outrage from certain segments of the evangelical subculture given its uneasy truce with human sexuality. But then it hits me just now like a splat of bird crap on my balding pate. Forget offense & outrage at Brother Mark’s latest show, how bout’ just plain stupid?

  108. Deb –

    Is the picture in your article above the actual flyer that was used?

    If so, why is there only a woman on it who appears to be naked on the top? Where is the man and his nakedness? What kind of advertising and message were they sending with that flyer anyway? Women are the problem OR was it a ploy to get guys in the door? At a Christian college too?

  109. That picture just kept bugging me and I just realized why. It seems to imply that WOMEN are the problem and WOMEN should be naked and WOMEN need help and WOMEN need to change. AND little Mark is the one to set them straight – puke!!!

  110. Bridget2,

    🙂 🙂 🙂

    Over 60 percent of the student body at UNC is FEMALE! One can assume that the students who heard Mark Driscoll reflected that statistic…

  111. That wasn’t really a poster that got used, was it? The design of the poster makes it look like Mark is awkwardly resisting the temptation to check out the woman on the other side of the poster.

  112. “Really good take on the lack of proper fear in marriages, and the watering down of “fear” into “respect” in Eph 5 translations.”

    Yeah, this is one of the best kept secrets out there. Do a word study on it in the Greek, sometime. Amazing how stuff is translated and redefined. Phobios is fear.

  113. All of this with MD to me comes off as a group of new Christians trying to make sure their past culture is mostly OK with them being Christians. MH got its start with the rougher crowd in the Seattle area. Now MD is trying to say many things you did in the past are OK.

    Sort of like the SBC and slavery and segregation.

  114. WTH and Bridget2,

    From what I understand, the UNC CRU leaders use their website for communication. I am assuming that this was featured there because it appears students get updates there. Not sure if posters were printed and posted on campus.

  115. Amy,

    Thanks for the information! I read most of it. I also noticed the following at the link you provided:

    “A manifesto on our core convictions: gospel-centered theology, Spirit-filled or empowered lives, complementarian relationships, and missional churches.”

    T4G just posted a clip on their website that states that complementarianism is one of their core beliefs and it not open for compromise.

    At least we know where they stand so we can make an informed decision…

  116. Wow Amy thanks for the link. Plenty of branding-Image-CEO=projected growth talk. Sounds like the seeker megas of 20 years ago which are now holding on by their fingernails.

    Mark has quite the empire.

  117. My thought exactly. I personally have an even bigger problem with a lack of up-frontness (word?) than with the doctrine itself. It’s too close to academic dishonesty in my book. I’ve had church leaders try and redirect my service to more “acceptable” ministries under the guise of “what we really need is someone to do [x].” I’d actually be less frustrated if told at the outset “we’re not comfortable with women doing this” before getting involved.

  118. Driscoll: “this means I am resuming the presidency of Acts 29.”

    The more things change, the more they stay the same.

  119. My formerly A-29 church has had a variation of 3 of those 4 core values up-front since before we joined. Afterward, we came to realize the hidden 4th value (never preached about on Sunday mornings or published in official documents). Will the apple fall further from the tree, now we’re independent? Not sure, but if complementarianism becomes official, I and my family will need to find a new apple lacking that core.

  120. TedS
    Well he’s ticked off half of the evangelicals and all of the Brits except for one guy with a tongue piercing in Liverpool. So he’s setting his sites on a new group. Let’s see how many he can miff off in his fan club.

  121. Dave
    I say we all form a new group made up of all the ones Driscoll and others have miffed off. We’ll get together, apply henna tattoos and laugh at Acts 29 updates on doctrine, toasting each one with root beer microbrews.

  122. “It’s About Perspective”

    HowDee YaAll,

    “…are Christian leaders trying to make the Good News something other than good?  I just don’t think that Jesus intended anything to be tough. Leaders today want everything to be “tough” or “difficult…” 

    Maybe the person to answer the question is a litt’l gal twenty-five years in-to-the-future, she has just graduated from MIT with a PHD in nuclear physics, with two patents for ion propulsion for inter-stellar space travel, already under her belt… 

    Oh! wait…What’s this, her mother’s not interested…,

    and aborted her yesterday…(for lack of interest?)


    (I guess we may never know…)

    What? (what is my point?)

    It’s called perspective. (not abortion)

    Read on…

    Thirteen years ago a pastor by the name Charles Joseph Mahaney hijacked an international charismatic church ministry and dragged it in stealth into the “Reformed Camp”. Blackmail, coercion, deceptive practices, conspiracy, cover-ups… left a trail of day’bree in his wake… The dust ain’t settl’d yet. Road kill so far, amounting to over a hundred discarded pastors?  Leaving many a damaged reformed big dog with tarnished hai’lo…


    (These reformed big dog folks didn’t need this with their large ESV concern growing…and speak of heady endorsements…$$$)

    Now today (consider) we have a pastor by the name of Mark Driscoll who has been mentored by none other than this Charles Joseph Mahaney, building satellite churches with twenty to thirty year olds. Now we are hearing some of the horror stories coming out of some of these Acts29 churches that sound somewhat similar, and familiar, reminding the reader of another ‘group’ of churches: SGM. 

    Where’s Our Perspective?

    Hmmm. Formula for disaster, I don’t know, they give these pastors a lot of lateral …these dayz… Damage to the Gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ? Back to Egypt?
    Forget Jesus…Give us another?!?

    We shall see…

    (how do I un-plug this here large screen church TV, Hmmm?)  What do you meanz …I can’t… Oh! my… -grin- ha! ;~) 

    Woof, Woof?!? Ah Wooooooo?!? You hearz um? ♪♪♪…Standing on dis church top, counting all the money, laughing at youz haters, ain’t nothing gonna save yeah?




    …I look up to the churches?
    does my strength come from my church?
    no, my strength comes from my God,
    who made heaven, and earth, and the church!
    he won’t let me stumble,
    my Guardian God won’t fall asleep.
    not on your life! The Church’s
    Guardian will never doze or sleep.
    God’s my Guardian,
    right at my side to protect me—
    shielding me even from the sunstroke of bad pastors…
    sheltering me from the lightning of Satan’s power…
    God guards me from every evil,
    he guards my very life.
    he guards me when I’ze leave and when I’ze return,
    he guards me now, he guards me always.


    “Never Once”*

    Standing on this mountaintop
    Looking just how far we’ve come
    Knowing that for every step
    You were with us…

    Kneeling on this battle ground
    Seeing just how much You’ve done
    Knowing every victory
    Was Your power in us…

    Scars and struggles on the way
    But with joy, yes our hearts can say:
    Never once did we ever walk alone
    Carried by Your constant grace…

    Held within Your perfect peace
    You are faithful, God, 
    Every step, we are breathing in Your grace
    Evermore, we’ll be breathing out Your praise…

    You are faithful…thankz Jesus! ;~)

    Sopy ♥,† 
    * Matt Redman – ‘Never Once’

    Bonus: Michael W. Smith – Draw Me Close

  123. Eagle

    Deb is looking into a lot of links between Driscoll and other groups. It is imperative that people understand the very real difficulties with this man. I think there are many Christian leaders out there who, at first, got a kick out of his irreverence. I think some of these guys are bad bot wannabes and like to flex their muscles and down a brewski, proving that they are real men. It is kind of a “Revenge of the Spiritual Nerds.” Frankly, they will have to down a lot of brewskis in order to drown out the very real issues with this man.

    Driscoll has caught the attention of the media – something that he intended. But,from what I know, the coming attention is not what he wanted. At some point, the boys are going to have to “sober up” and face this problem like real men, not little boys playing warrior dress up.


    Sigh. This is off-topic. But read this and explain to me how A. This message could not be EQUALLY valid for husbands, and B. How we should NOT be worried about a woman who says that a frequent worry for wives is that they hope their kids don’t grow up to be like their husbands, or that things are easier when their husbands are out of town.

    Someone please stop the insanity, I’d like to get off now.

  125. ARCE:
    Bingo!!The very governance structure is a license for corruption and abuse.

    “The problem is that MH and other megas have established themselves as pastor control churches, or pastor appointed elder controlled churches. The result is that there are no checks or balances on the pastor. Symptoms include pastor’s family members on the church.payroll, high salaries, squashing of any dissent, controlling covenants, strong church discipline systems.”

    Amen, amen, and amen!!

    A pastor-elder, of an owner-operated church unchecked by the laity may not aspire to be be a cult leader, but he is a de facto priest.
    And these people call themselves Reformed?


    Over in Oak Ridge, Pastor Bobby Williams of RIDGE Church (across from LaSalle Park) will be preaching his next few sermons from the Driscoll’s kinky marriage book.

    Speaking of kinky … Legacy Church/A29 does a weekly outreach at a laundromat near me, promising quarters, coffee, and conversation.

    I went 0-for-3. Two of these pious frauds snubbed me, even though I was reading a classic religious title ten feet from from them.

    The preachers were preoccupied with their conversation about how to climb the Driscoll corporate ladder at the upcoming pastor’s conference.

    Some poor soul with half his teeth missing had to nearly beg the divines for a goodbye hug as they tried to ignore him, although it was clearly the social highlight of his week.

    After he left, they laughed at the poor guy. Then the great church planters told their little sandwich-and-baby maker that they were leaving 15 minutes early.

    That left the helper-ette folding her unmentionables in my line of site, which she seemed to rather enjoy. I don’t think she’s “all in”, and her lingerie collection certainly is not … and she was reading a book of plays from the (gasp!) English Renaissance.


  127. Kent Johnson,

    What incredible on the spot reporting! Your vivid description makes me feel like I was there seeing all of this unfold.

    You have illustrated so well what worries me about Mark Driscoll. He is tickling the ears of these guys who quite frankly are still wet behind the ears. I believe these Driscoll wannabes are doing much harm to the cause of Christ.

  128. Deb: “I believe these Driscoll wannabes are doing much harm to the cause of Christ.”

    I’ve talked to enough of them that I know many of them are doing much harm to the cause of Christ.

    It’s all about position and authority in the sight of others. Or, in other words, Pharisee-ism.

  129. Mara,

    I believe we can collectively and effectively shine the light on this scourge.

    We will continue getting the word out here at TWW!

  130. Anon
    Which theology? Christian pole dancing? Sorry, I am tired from being on the road for the past 3 days.

  131. Rory,

    I just read the review this morning. As you know, it was written by a woman who taught Bible studies at Mars Hill Church. She left the church four years ago and has not spoken out until now. Her husband Andy contributed to the review of the Driscoll’s Real Marriage book.

    The theologyforwomen blogger concludes her post with these words:

    “I hope Mars Hill’s current elders will encourage Mark to stop and repair with those he has specifically directed his anger and misogyny over the years and to seek counsel for his past issues he hasn’t addressed, because the past verbal violence he directed toward individuals was verbal violence toward the Savior. “Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to Me” (Mt. 25:40). And the issues he hasn’t yet addressed in his own heart will resurface again. In every instance in which Mark’s accountability structure (whatever that is now) is aware of his verbal sins without holding him accountable and is aware of baggage from his upbringing without pointing him to gospel counsel, the name of Jesus and the good parts of doctrine Mark teaches will be undermined right along with him, as is now the case in many secular news stories.”

    Thanks for bringing it to our attention. It is an important post.

  132. The true legacy of Legacy Church Knoxville is Maranatha , Morning Star, Every Nation. Multiple ties to Weinerites, or as I henceforth shall call them, Weenies.


  133. Pingback: Mark Driscoll’s Real Marriage — where’s the sanctity? « Churchmouse Campanologist

  134. Pastor Mark is addressing the issues that non Christians and Christians face in the world.(not the Christian bubble) He is speaking biblical truth and engaging people in a way that counters worldly thought and puts it into biblical perspective. I don’t know if anal sex in marriage is biblical or not, You did not post his response to the question either, but the fact of the matter is we are in moral decline and the media is full of illicit things. At the very least Driscoll is driving home a focus on biblical marriage, necessity for Christ salvation in EVERY aspect of our lives, and freedom in Christ (which is our joy). Driscoll is opening the door for people to approach Jesus with issues that are taboo in many Christian circles, yet the questions are present. Lastly, I read a lot of very negative and borderline hateful comments. First, check yourself before you bash others and then do it in love. Second, Be salt and light, God uses all things to achieve his purposes. I think a parents relationship outweighs that thing that one pastor said that one time. He is a fellow brother, and it is all about Jesus.

  135. Ramon
    So, Mark Driscoll is addressing real issues outsides of the Christian bubble?
    Christians in Britain are cowards
    If you don’t have young men in the church you have nothing?
    Song of Solomon is all about sex (Did he mention that Solomon had hundreds of wives and concubines?)
    Driscoll “sees visions” of sexual affairs, rapes and molestation is progress? Where in the Bible is that?
    He does say anal sex is Biblical-since you know him so well, you should know the answer to that question.(Google it).
    Women are “gullible and easily deceived?”
    We disagree. It is NOT all about Jesus.
    “Be salt and light” How do you know we are not?
    Thank you for your input.

  136. Ramon, Stop being blind. You are being led by a blind guide. Driscoll lives in a “sex” bubble.

  137. Driscoll has said if you get the young men you get everything and if you don’t get the young men you get nothing.

    Really? We’ve seen the effects of the “mancession” and that women are getting more advanced education than men lately what about this proposal, that the unmarried woman (whether never-married or single mother) looks poised to become one of the most crucial voting demographics to win in 2012 elections?

  138. This will end up being a pointless conversation, but to close, My point is it isn’t about I am right you are wrong, or our opinions, what I am saying is Jesus is what matters. Driscoll is dedicated to Jesus, scripture, and shepherding his flock, and spreading the gospel. Because you can’t relate, because you aren’t in his context, or are so transfixed on your tradition, it overshadows the work God is doing through Mars Hill. (it is a great thing) Don’t spend your energy being negative. The bible says we should spur one another on in love, not judge. At least it isn’t a false gospel the bible says clearly for “Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.” 1Cor7:5

    I happened to find this interview today.

    Dee, first are you a Christian? Second, I think you take him too seriously. I don’t know half the things you quoted. Christians everywhere are cowards, come on! We are human sinners! If we had the courage to live out half of what Christ calls us to in faith, the world would be a different place! And who cares about Driscoll’s OPINION! Yes Solomon did, but SOS was written before that time. Also, he says in Ecclesiastes 9:9 “Enjoy life with the wife whom you love, all the days of your vain life that he has given you under the sun…” Anal sex in marriage sounds like a mutual personal choice, so what do you care what others do? It is still within the bounds of heterosexual marriage. “anal sex is technically permissible, but for a host of reasons may not be beneficial.”-MHC Sounds like Paul’s words. 1Cor 6:12 ““All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything.”
    Before I met Jesus, I learned well women can be gullible and easily deceived, but so can men. I think he was referring to Eve on that one. Better than being cowardly and complacent like Adam right!?

    Wentachee, His point is men are to be the leaders of the home, if you get men you get their home, work, family, influence. Women are a huge demographic, one that is well covered. Men that lead require strong leaders, that is who he is, a strong leader that shoots straight, not perfect, but earnest. Lastly he isn’t talking about winning elections.

    Love you guys, try not to get too offended.

  139. * at least it isn’t a false gospel… like Prosperity or some works based gem! He isn’t worshiping sex but trying to get people to put it in proper perspective, biblical perspective.

    Mi scusi!