Mark Driscoll “Puts Down” British Christians While Ed Young “Beds Down” In Dallas

"When you invite a middle-aged moralist to address you, I suppose I must conclude…that you have a taste for middle-aged moralizing." – CS Lewis

 

                          

 

I am about to say something that will cause angst among those Calvinistas who read this blog. (We know they do). There is no practical difference between Ed Young Jr and Mark Driscoll. Ah, the outcry…”.But Mark Driscoll is an educated Calvinist, and, as such, is far better qualified to preach theology than Ed Young who has mentioned in the past that doctrine just confuses people!” And I say, “So what!”

I have this philosophy about theology. Unless theology results in a positive, practical application for Christian living, it is just a bunch of facts that benefit no one. As I look at the lives of these two men, I see two guys who climb all over themselves to be noticed, and not in a good way. They both write treatises on sex which tend to miff off people, they both adhere to a hyper-authoritarian pastorate, and they both come off arrogant, vulgar, rude, egocentric and condescending to large numbers of people. So what if Driscoll has “correct” theology. He acts like a street urchin with no manners and vulgar speech.

Tonight, Ed Young Jr. and his wife Lisa are laying in a bed on the roof of their church in Dallas, pontificating about their sex lives in front of a national audience. Until a few days ago, Driscoll was also creating brouhaha with his “groundbreaking” book on sex. Unfortunately, he was upstaged by the “up on the roof top” Youngs.

Mark Driscoll insults the Christians in England

Driscoll, however, has created a new controversy with an interview that he did with Christianity Magazine in England. The article, scheduled to be released on 1/15, has been leaked and is causing a firestorm of protest from British Christians. What did he say now? Once again, I must ask, “Where are the grownups who should be watching this guy?”

Here are two of the quotes, which appeared in Christianity Today. Remember, he is addressing Christian in Great Britain. Keep in mind that he believes his Acts 29 member churches(of which he is the de facto head) differentiate themselves by being missional. You know, reaching out to the lost world in a culturally relevant way. So, let’s see how the master does it.

Comment 1:
He claims that young men will not go to church so long as there are “guys in dresses preaching to grandmas”.

For those unaware of some of the practices the Church of England (Driscoll knows this, btw), the pastors of some churches wear a simple black clerical gown. In fact, in the United States, this is also the case in some of the highly evangelical Anglican churches.

Driscoll is insulting centuries of tradition. For this self-professed role model of a missional pastor, this is a serious breach. I wonder, would he go into the inland of Africa and make fun of the tribes who, after embracing the faith, continue to wear their colorful traditional garb. Better yet would he go onto the streets of Seattle and make fun of the guys who wear tattoos? Whoops, I forgot. Driscoll looooooves the guys with tattoos, which he believes are very cool.

Driscoll exhibits profound ignorance of tradition or even worse a vulgar and demeaning view of those who do not dress in Driscoll’s proscribed couture for church pastors -a Mickey Mouse t-shirt and necklace.(Good night-give me a black clerical gown, please!)

Comment Two:

“Let’s just say this: right now, name for me the one young, good Bible teacher that is known across Great Britain. You don’t have one – that’s the problem. There are a bunch of cowards who aren’t telling the truth.”

Driscoll continues in his arrogant put-down of the English faithful. According to him, unless there is a young good Bible teacher, then the church is in trouble. I have news for Driscoll. He is no longer young and he is looking ridiculous dressing like some street boy from Seattle.

Secondly, to call his brothers who labor faithfully “cowards” is beyond belief! Seminary leaders, such as Danny Akin, President of SEBTS, endorse Driscoll, having him come and speak at their schools, should be ashamed of this man. They should chastise him. Yet, they endorse him and his books. What in the world is wrong with this picture? Is the money that good?
 

English Christians respond.

In fact, some English Christians have taken offense at Driscoll’s profound ignorance of the Christians in that country. I found an excellent blog written by Krish Kandiah. Here is his bio.

“Krish is Executive Director: Churches in Mission and England Director for the UK Evangelical Alliance. He is part of the theme development group for Spring Harvest, an external examiner for Oak Hill College and Associate Research Fellow at London School of Theology. Prior to this Dr Kandiah was the Director of the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics and also Tutor in Mission and Evangelism at Wycliffe Hall. He was also a member of the Oxford University Theology faculty.

Krish has worked with students in the UK with Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, and in Albania with the International Fellowship of Evangelical Students, before becoming pastor of a multi-cultural church in Harrow. He is a regular speaker at university missions, and has wide experience in evangelism and cross cultural mission.” In other words, he is an English evangelical with serious credentials.

Krish was incensed by Driscoll’s claims and wrote about. Here is a link.

Krish first demolishes Driscoll’s ignorant comment about the lack of young preachers.

“It doesn’t sound like Driscoll is rejoicing the ministry of Mike Pilavaci, Andy Croft, Jo Saxton and the impact these preachers are having on tens of thousands of young people each summer at Soul Survivor. Doesn’t sound like he’s particularly appreciative of Rico Tice coming from the other end of the theological spectrum whose course is being used by hundreds of churches.” (He goes on to list the effective ministries of many others, including a woman). With one dismissive comment he writes off all of their ministries and many other fine preachers too many to mention here.”

He exposes Driscoll’s narrow minded “celebrity preacher” Christianity.

“To write off a whole nations worth of preachers based on the criteria that they need to be “well known” is unhelpful anyway. It plays to the celebrity culture that Driscoll has become enmeshed in. To write off a whole nations worth of preachers based on the criteria that they need to be “well known” is unhelpful anyway. It plays to the celebrity culture that Driscoll has become enmeshed in. Its one of my problems with the satellite church model – why beam yourself to campuses where you are not physically present so that people can watch you – why not raise up local pastors who know their sheep.”

He then puts the icing on the cake, proving that the Brits seem to get it far better than those American Calvinista preachers who regularly prop up the antics of Driscoll.

“So how Driscoll can say that we don’t have any young preachers that are any good without looking at the ministry week by week by young pastors in some very difficult places is arrogant and self absorbed.”

One needs to read the comments of Krish’s readers. I am impressed at the number of comments he receives on his blog, showing that the church body in England is alive, well, and in no need of misguided individuals such as Driscoll to tell them how to do church “his way.” Here is a sample comment.(Ouch).

Amy said:
“Surely the idea is to make Jesus famous rather than the preacher? It would actually seem that the UK has a much better idea of what it is to preach Jesus than the US does!”

There is also some discussion that Driscoll’s contempt for the interviewer is misplaced and that said reporter is actually a pretty good guy.
 

Driscoll tries to tap dance, poorly.

Why mention this? Driscoll attempts to demonize the reporter.

Scrambling to deflect the fall out of his misguided words, MD released a post yesterday in which he does not deny his words, merely saying that an evil reporter took them out of context. I want to thank our reader, Numo, for calling our attention to this matter.

In a post, here, titled A Blog Post for the Brits, Driscoll begins his tap dance.

Here are some of his comments:

“As is often the case, to stoke the fires of controversy, thereby increasing readership, which generates advertising revenue, a few quotes of mine have been taken completely out of context and sent into the Twittersphere.”

He then tries to clarify his thoughts.(His words in italics).
“I’ve said for years that Britain and Canada are more secular and difficult than the United States. So, for those pastors (especially church planters) working in some tough soil, thank you!”

This is condescending. They don’t need his thanks, they need his support not insulting comments.

“You have great pressure from the media and even some legal liability that can cause preachers and teachers to whisper their beliefs rather than proclaim them. More than ever, humble courage is required!”

He is telling the British Christians THEY need humble courage? Driscoll needs “humble,” they are already courageous. The ones who need to be courageous are the Calvinista leaders who should attempt to shut this guy up. What are they afraid of?

“Please do not compromise on essential doctrinal issues.”

He goes onto lecture them on what they cannot compromise, not once giving any encouragement to the many who do not compromise. He makes a big point about preaching the reality of hell and then says to these Christians “lying to them is not loving them!” Once again, he makes assumptions about what the evangelicals are doing or not doing.

“Please earnestly ask if enough is being done to reach, train, and deploy godly, gifted men, especially young men, into the marketplace and ministry. As you look around your church this Sunday, ask if you see enough substantive Christian men to lead your church for the next few generations, and if not, sound the alarm that there is a crisis!”

Once again, it seems as if Driscoll did not talk to many Christians who are doing just that. Also, he refuses accept that the church in England encourages women in ministry, which is an anathema for this misogynistic preacher.

“Please ask why there is a lack of courageous young Christian preachers heralding the word of God across Britain and beyond and why, when there are big events for evangelicals, a speaker often has to be brought in from another country to preach.”

He continues to pour salt onto the wounds he has made, further demonstrating his profound ignorance of the Christian efforts 

He goes onto give "context "(read: make excuses) for his responses in the interview. First, he brags about himself, pretending he knows all about communications.

“I have a degree in communications from one of the top programs in the United States. So does my wife, Grace. We are used to reporters with agendas and selective editing of long interviews.”  (If Driscoll is an example of the top programs graduates of this communications program,  I would suggest looking elsewhere for college).

Then he plugs his book and is upset that the interviewer did not ask more about it. Perhaps he was hoping for some free advertisement? 

“With the release of our book, Real Marriage, we have now done literally dozens of interviews with Christians and non-Christians. The interview in question had nearly nothing to do with the book or its subject matter, which in my understanding was supposed to be the point of the interview.”

Then, he is surprised that he is asked about his penchant for controversy. Good night! If I had about 15 minutes with this guy, I can well assure you that I would ask about all sorts of things, including his “pornovision” here

“But the one that culminated in the forthcoming article was, in my opinion, the most disrespectful, adversarial, and subjective The only questions asked were about any controversial thing I’ve ever said in the past 15 years with a host of questions that were adversarial and antagonistic.

This one takes the cake. He is mad that the reporter “exercised his authority" over him. Read that one again!!!

“It felt like a personally offended critic had finally gotten his chance to exercise some authority over me.”
(Poor Mark, he was finally on the receiving end of “authority” and didn’t like it.)

He found this next question odd. I found that question logical, considering Driscoll’s history.

“I was asked a question about, if a woman was the pastor of a church which that pastor’s husband attended, would that be emasculating to him. The question was asked in such a pointed way that it was odd.

At the end of the interview, I started asking questions of the interviewer. He admitted that his last questions were really about himself and his wife. Apparently his wife is the pastor of their church, he’s strongly committed to women as pastors, disagrees strongly with our complementarian position."

Where does that leave us? Unfortunately no better off than when we started. Ed wrote a book on sex and is on the roof in bed. Driscoll is running around writing books on sex and insulting Christians around the world. These two men, theologically different, end up in the same place. And that, to this Christian, is deeply disturbing.

To our Christian brothers and sisters in England, we apologize for Mark Driscoll as well as Ed Young Jr. They are arrogant, ignorant, hyper-authoritarian, materialistic, self absorbed, and sexually immersed preachers who we believe have some serious issues that are not being addressed. They are a byproduct of a subset in our American culture who promote and enjoy tacky entertainment by crude individuals. Next time, call Wade Burleson, Pete Briscoe, David Platt or Francis Chan. They represent, far better, the good that can be found in the church in the United States today.

 

(Good news, Eagle's father is doing well. Thanks for your prayers).

 

Lydia's Corner: Isaiah 3:1-5:30 2 Corinthians 11:1-15 Psalm 53:1-6 Proverbs 22:28-29

 

Comments

Mark Driscoll “Puts Down” British Christians While Ed Young “Beds Down” In Dallas — 77 Comments

  1. Great post, Dee! Driscoll can’t delete his remarks this time as has been done in the past to protect his image. I know of TWO instances when this happened.

    MAN UP DRISCOLL!!! Own your words.

    I find it absolutely incredible that he has a degree in communications.

  2. Well, someone on FB said it better than me – Driscoll is his own reality show.

    And an English commenter noted that Driscoll appears to be preaching “ME-sus, not Jesus.”

    (btw, I got my links from the Stuff Christian Culture Likes FB page – props to Stephanie Drury for her posts there!)

    *

    “black clerical gown”: not sure, but I wonder, are you talking about Geneva gowns? I think most Anglican priests wear vestments on Sunday and dog-collared shirts on weekdays (on work hours, that is).

  3. black clerical gowns, contd….

    though I bet some Low Church Anglicans might go for plain old black on Sundays, but it seems kinda funereal to me.

    Maybe someone from the UK can clarify?

  4. As for how MD comes across, I have a sneaking feeling that a lot of people Over There now know that he’s a *lot* like the infamous football hooligans.

    I would just laugh at MD and Young if it weren’t for the fact that they’re preaching stuff that’s harming many. The rest – this constant public fronting – is all P.T. Barnum-style showmanship to the nth degree.

  5. Consider the entertainment value. Driscoll could easily be woven in as a character (unsavory) in a new Stephen King novel.

  6. Muff – y’know, in a weird way, these guys are harking back to Aimee Semple McPherson and her stunts, though I’m sure they’d just love the comparison! ; )

  7. “There is no practical difference between Ed Young Jr and Mark Driscoll”

    You have nailed it. You are exactly right. But they will not see it. I am seeing so much discomfort from the Calvinists over this, it is not funny. But they will make fun of Ed. They are skirting around Driscoll and on many blogs you are banned and deleted if you quote Mark directly! They are protecting him while they write blog articles that say they are “uncomfortable” with the book. Are they serious? The book is simply a logical outcome of who he has always been. They just chose not to see it.

    My question is, where is their line in the sand with Mark? Is there one? How much poison are they willing to overlook with their favorite shock jock Calvinist? And can’t they see his poison IS part of his Gospel message?

  8. Driscoll won’t admit this but with that interview he is outside his safe calvinista celebrity worshiping bubble and did not have control.

    Seems he has never heard of Jay Smith in London. A Christian Islam scholar who witnesses to Muslims all the time. And debates them on the Koran. and they like him! He is friends with many Imams. I would like to see Driscoll do that in Hyde Park’s speakers corner. Jay challenges them on the way they treat their women and what the Koran really has to say. Oops, Driscoll could not do that because his interpretation of the Bible is closer to Islam when it comes to women. (Except when he needs Grace’s degree….but then, I thought Grace was easily deceived so why would her degree matter?)

  9. Normally, I would read a transcript or listen to the original broadcast of the interview to check context, as Dr. Kandiah suggests on his blog post. But Driscoll is the exception–I just can’t hear more than 5 or 6 words from his mouth without getting very, very angry. That’s not an attitude I care to foster in myself, so I’m skipping that step today.

    But I think I’m on solid ground saying that the overemphasis on having young pastors and young congregations is one of the biggest problems with the Acts 29 network. Before we knew much about A29, my husband and I got involved in one of their church plants. The pastor, who is a genuinely great guy, was younger than we are–and so was the rest of the core congregation. And that was one of the main reasons we didn’t stick it out. Everything was geared for the younger generation, and although they needed older Christians to serve as mentors, they rejected our traditions and values (so we had to sacrifice and be tolerant, but they did not). They really seemed to believe that the traditional church had nothing to offer except Calvin, Edwards, and the lyrics (but not tunes) of some hymns. My husband and I are in that middle stage in which we need both older mentors and younger mentees, and it wasn’t going to happen there.

    Why must a person be young in order to be influential for Christ? Yes, reaching the millennial generation is important, but I know of many young people who came to faith because of the involvement of older men and women. A church that is not diverse–whether with regard to age, race, ethnicity, or some combination thereof–does not reflect the picture of the Church that I see in the New Testament. A29’s website says that their churches run the gamut from traditional to missional community models, but from what I can gather, most are Mars Hill clones, and I don’t see this model surviving past the current generation.

  10. All I can say is – this is what happens when men fail to engage their brains and think with other parts of their anatomy. It’s painful to watch!

  11. All kidding aside (from my previous comment), I still find it hard to fathom how otherwise intelligent and well educated people get reeled in by these kinds of charlatans & hucksters in the first place.

  12. Numo @ 11:49 –

    I totally agree with you on how laughable it is! But so unfortunate that so many are hurt on his watch, while the grace Jesus came to proclaim is denied by his theology.

  13. Anon1 –

    Their line in the sand for Driscoll is the same place it is for CJ Mahaney. It does not exist? And if it does exist, it is a moving target. It moves to fit individual needs (income from books and conferences). Or, it moves based on fear of how it might effect an individual ministries “image.” It is subjective to the whims of man and not to the works of Christ. The Calvinistas protect or overlook issues in each other while asking members of their congregations to leave if they should question a teaching or sermon or question “anything” really. As far as I can remember – Jesus answered multitudes of questions without condemnation being implied.

  14. Driscoll has given a public interview and written a blogpost. The content of these should be discussed and dissected. At the same time, apologizing to an entire nation of Christians for the actions of another person is arrogant. It assumes that you are holy and all-knowing, having the right to pronounce that another person is in sin. If you think he needs to apologize, that is one thing, but apologizing for him has a feel about it that it seems like the authors of this site would want to avoid.

  15. Scott,
    Driscoll needs to be apologized for.
    I add my apology to the others, to England for the things one of our U.S. preachers has said.
    It is so embarrassing it is painful.
    Let me say it again.

    England, I apologize for Driscoll’s arrogant and over-the-top IGNORANT comments. He should be ashamed of himself for the insults and condescension that came from of his out-or-control mouth in your direction.
    I wish that those who had the power to shut him up would do so, but I don’t see it happening any time soon.
    Meanwhile, Please know that not all American Christians are taken in by him. We’ve been dealing with the stink and filth of his diarrhea-of-the-mouth for years.

  16. Scott
    First, I linked to Drisxoll’s post so people can read it in it’s entirety and excerpted it in the post. Was that not enough?
    Secondly, I am sorry that you feel that I am arrogant, all-knowing and holier than thou. I risk that every time I do a post that critiques an individual. But, so be it. At least I have the guts to post my name, what I think and allow those who disagree criticize me which is a far cry from many folks who write Calvinista blogs.(Tim Challies comes to mind for one).
    Thirdly, you betcha Driscoll needs to apologize. He is an embarrassment to American evangelicalism and we are being judged on his behavior since so many people seem to endorse this nonsense.
    Fourthly, there is now an interview with the reporter and I plan to post that as well. There are two sides to this story and I am inclined to believe the reporter. My choice-Driscoll has lost credibility with me.

  17. Muff —

    Yes, entertainment value, for sure. I propose all this for the next Christopher Guest film.

    (you know, mockumentaries like Spinal Tap, Best In Show, A Mighty Wind, For Your Consideration).

    Material galore for spectacular satire.

  18. Scott,

    So Mark Driscoll had to clarify himself once again… I thought he was a communications major in college. Why does he have such difficulty in communicating with people?

    Driscoll is a middle-aged man who doesn’t learn from his mistakes. To make matters worse, he professes to be a man of God. I, for one, am sick and tired of his sycophants who have to come to his defense far too often. Mark my words, Christian history will not judge him well.

  19. To be honest, I think that MD – and people like him – are an embarrassment, period. (Not just to American evangelicalism.)

    It really is painful to see his ugly comments – very bigoted, imo – about people in the UK. The “dresses” thing was especially nasty.

  20. From Dee’s post. Driscoll’s comment first, then Dee’s response: “It felt like a personally offended critic had finally gotten his chance to exercise some authority over me.”
    (Poor Mark, he was finally on the receiving end of “authority” and didn’t like it.)

    I forgot to mention that I LOVED this. Because this is what it is all about with these guys. It’s all about THEM having the authority and everyone else NOT having the authority, and everyone else being under their authority.

    This is narcissistic attitude if I ever saw it and a blatant admittance that they are proud and are resistant to any authority but their own.

  21. Hmmmm…I find it interesting that Driscoll describes having someone exercise authority over him as a less-than-stellar experience. Does he see the exercise of his authority over Grace in the same way?

  22. “Exercise of his authority over Grace”… It’s probably just me who’s bothered by Mark’s resting his hand on Grace’s knee in videos of them answering questions on the church stage… Our dog rests her paw on our knees as a dominance move, which the dog whisperer says we shouldn’t allow.

  23. Appalled – no, you’re not the only one who’s bothered by that! Lots of people are, as far as I can tell – have seen many comments around the internet and ex-fundy/ex-evangelical blogosphere about that exact thing.

    (There have definitely been comments on this blog re. his constant physical contact – which looks like what you said, and then some.)

  24. Interestingly enough from an Aramaic translation Matthew 5: 22 states “, and anyone who should say, you are a coward, is condemned.” Mark Driscoll is such an inciter it is not even funny. He is brutish to say the least. He argues and is quarrelsome thus nullifies qualifications of being a true elder. The more I survey the currently landscape not many are truly annointed and many are self appointed.

  25. The late Bob Passintino had a great article on using the Golden Rule in aplogetics Driscoll needs to read it in depth.

  26. Casey: “The more I survey the currently landscape not many are truly annointed and many are self appointed.”

    Most are self-appointed, aren’t they?

  27. One thing that really surprised me about the interview is Mark Driscoll’s lack of skill in being interviewed. The interviewer didn’t ask anything unusual or anything that should have been unexpected. A person who is habitually in the limelight should have developed ways to handle these kind of questions while referring back to his book which was the point of the interview. What’s he going to do if a real investigative journalist ever gets hold of him?

  28. Juniper
    I guess you dod not read Driscoll’s self assessment. He claims to have gone to one of the finest schools of communication in the country so, it’s the other guy’s fault. And if someone else gets ahold of him, it’s quite simple. They are wrong and ungodly.

  29. Hi American friends

    I really appreciate such a thorough and thoughtful response to a controversy which has a good many fellow pastors in the UK incensed and saddened.

    Just a quick point re: gowns in UK churches – I’m a C of E ordinand-in-training, I’ve attended 5 CofE churches (4 evangelical, 1 very definitely liberal) since September. So far gown/vestment count = zero. I’ve seen a few dog collars but not as often as some would expect.

    I agree it is insulting a tradition MD doesn’t understand but more than tradition, many clergy do where dog collars and/or some form of vestment for good theological and practical reasons. Someone choosing to downplay their personal taste in fashion, covering it with a relatively plain vestment in order not to distract from word and sacrament – that I have a lot more respect for that than sporting trendy jeans, manly check shirts and the latest in middle-aged, sorry, young hip sports jacket.

    Keep up the good work 🙂

  30. Mark, Thanks for your insight from across the pond. I could not agree with you more. The mickey mouse t-shirt and necklace worn by Driscoll a lot is very distracting….since I am trying to figure out why such a necklace and shirt is “manly”. :o)

    Tell your pastor friends over there that many of us do not agree with Driscoll and stand with them as fellow believers.

    As one blogger put it:

    Notice how Marks main concerns were the two main points of the celebrity culture: Young and well known.

  31. Mark Hewerdine,

    Welcome to TWW! I echo Dee’s sentiments that we owe you Brits an apology for the behavior of one of our own. Mark Driscoll’s immaturity as a pastor seems to be getting worse with age! Dee and I are grateful that we have this forum in which we can express our outrage.

    Blessings from across the pond.

  32. Hi Mark
    Welcome to our blog! How wonderful to hear from a resident of the UK and how kind of you to take some time to comment! Even more, thank you for explaining your current traditions and practices.

    I particularly liked this comment. “Someone choosing to downplay their personal taste in fashion, covering it with a relatively plain vestment in order not to distract from word and sacrament – that I have a lot more respect for that than sporting trendy jeans, manly check shirts and the latest in middle-aged, sorry, young hip sports jacket.” You forgot that MD also loves to wear Mickey Mouse T-shirts which emphasizes his descent into middle aged “trying too hard” hipster dude. Since I am middle aged, rapidly approaching old age, this means something to me.And he sets himself up as the judge of traditional garb?

    Just so you know, MD insulted the wives of pastors who he said “let themselves go.” He said this in relation to the Ted Haggard incident in which Ted had an affair with a male prostitute. he alluded to the possibility of this being the wife’s fault. He apologized but he continues to make statements such as this so his apologies ring hollow. He has this thing about clothes…sigh.

    I hope that you understand that there are a fair number of evangelicals in this country who are deeply dismayed by the antics of some of our “dude” pastors with secondary agendas. MD considers himself as an expert on missional churches. If this recent interview is any example, the American church is in deep trouble, as well as other countries who will be the “beneficiaries” of these missional endeavors.

    You also said “I really appreciate such a thorough and thoughtful response to a controversy which has a good many fellow pastors in the UK incensed and saddened.” So many of the good people who write into this blog, as well as my fellow blogger and myself, are appalled at the crass arrogance displayed by Driscoll. I want to apologize to all of those who were hurt by this sorry display. Your country has given us some wonderful Christians. Of course, I am a CS Lewis fan and loved John Stott. My former pastor, Pete Briscoe, was born in your country before he and his parents (Jill and Stuart Briscoe) came to America. He has had a profound influence on my life. I have had the opportunity to correspond with the remarkable Dr John Lennox who I believe is one of the most brilliant and endearing debaters that I have had the pleasure of hearing. And, I would be remiss not to mention Tyndale, Wesley, Wycliffe, and on and on. May our country, one day, have such a rich heritage. We are indebted to the UK.

    I apologize that the church in America has not dealt with the creeping hyper-authoritarian arrogance of some of these “pastors.” That is one reason that this blog exists. Also, it is run by two women, who have lived traditional lives, which is a source of great irritation to some of these men.

    Some day, I hope to visit your country and meet some of my fellow brothers and sisters. If you, or any of your friends, wish to write a post on this blog regarding the Driscoll event, or anything else that is of interest, please know this blog is open to you. Just let us know through our contact information under The Basics.

    Once again, I am so sorry for the pain and trouble caused by Driscoll.

  33. “Their line in the sand for Driscoll is the same place it is for CJ Mahaney. It does not exist? And if it does exist, it is a moving target.}”

    Bridget, I have been reading around the Reformed and quasi Reformed blogosphere on this. Many are pastors who think Mark preaches the Gospel but are “uncomfortable” with some things he says and with the book.

    They are “compartmentalizing” Driscoll. It is that simple. We have “good Mark” and “sort of bad Mark”. But they never take Mark as a whole and think to themselves, this is a serious spiritual problem he has. How much poison are we going to ignore?

    Mark’s poison is wrapped up in who he is. You cannot separate it out. His behavior is bad fruit even IF he preaches the right Gospel (which I disagree with because he ADDS to the Gospel what is not there)

    And because of what he does for a living and how many sycophants he has, this makes him very dangerous.

  34. anon1
    Driscoll stepped way over the line in this one. He has managed to upset a country this time.

  35. Do you suppose this is enough to make Terry Virgo withdraw his enabling endorsement of MD’s misogynistic book?

  36. TedS
    This one is going to cause considerable angst amongst the Calvinista set. Driscoll is becoming a real liability. BTW, isn’t CJ Mahaney supposed to be mentoring him? That is almost too funny for words.

  37. how did the interviewer try to take authority over mark as mark claims he tried to
    do? mark started interviewing him! giving him a hard time! mark displays clear narcissism.

  38. Dee –

    CJ Mahaney mentoring Driscoll? Well that pretty much explains alot of things then doesn’t it. Did Driscoll look far and wide for just the perfect mentor for himself?

  39. If as Driscoll said in his sermons from Phillipians (“The Rebel’s Guide to Joy”) he was taught humility by C. J. Mahaney Driscoll’s subsequent public activity and statements could be taken to suggest that Mahaney is a poor teacher in general and uninformed on the nature of humility in particular. After all, if Driscoll would in some way hold himself forth as Mahaney’s prize pupil on the true nature of humility we’re looking at something more like an honorary doctorate instead of a Ph.D. that requires a defensible dissertation.

  40. So you noticed what made MD really bristle?
    It was the fact that another man “had finally gotten his chance to exercise some authority over me.”
    (See his “Blog for the Brits” @ http://pastormark.tv/2012/01/12/a-blog-for-the-brits )

    Congratulations to Mr. Brierly! A mild-mannered British journalist managed to accomplish something that not one “elder” at Driscoll’s organization, not John Piper, not Gerry Breshears, not CJ Mahaney, not one Gospel Coalition associate, has ever done.

  41. I have listened to the entire interview and Brierley was extremely respectful to Driscoll. It’s just that Brierley didn’t toe the Macho Man line. I was very impressed with Brierley’s demeanor. Everyone should take the time to listen to the interview for themselves.

    Driscoll Interview

  42. TedS
    Driscoll finally came face to face with someone that had some real authority. So, is Driscoll going to “punch him in the nose” like he said he would do to some pastors who disagreed with him? Methinks the emperor has no clothes. I cannot wait to see how the Reformed big dogs explain this one away. Oh, and CJ Mahaney is too busy trying to explain away his situation to be of much help.

  43. I just listened to the entire interview. It was so sad. Driscoll certainly learned the fine art of humility from Mahaney didn’t he! He

  44. WTH
    It is kind of funny, in a sick sort of way, that the Master and his Pupil have both been caught with their proverbial pants down. I am proud to say the TWW has been way ahead of the curve on both of these guys. But, these sorts of guys don’t listen to women, do they?

  45. From sitting through the interview this morning, Justin, when he could get a word in edgewise did a very good and rather gentle job. Mark simply needs significant help.

  46. Bill
    You did an awesome job with reviewing that interview! I planned to link to it tomorrow.
    Did you see the blog by Kinesh in England and the comments there? Also, we will feature a comment we got from a pastor in England tomorrow as well. Driscoll has managed to tick off a significant number of Christians in England.

    We have been fussing about Driscoll for a long time. Others have as well. Do you have any idea why seminary presidents and Christiaan leaders continue to prop him up? Something is very wrong with the American church. Will they wait until he upsets Africa or China before they say anything? Missional, my foot!

  47. I lost most of my post at 9:03 🙁 I’ll try again later. This was the first time I heard Driscoll. It could be the last as far as I’m concerned. There were so many things that were just wrong!!

    I am so sorry for Driscoll’s display of Popus arrogance to my brothers and sisters in England!

  48. Bill
    One further point.I was interested in the “gotcha” question. Unlike the United States, Europe and Africa have a large number of female pastors. Driscoll should be gracious in this area instead of insulting others. Is he so stupid or hot-headed that he can’t handle a simple example as that? Wait, don’t answer that. It is obvious, Mark is always right and he will step on everybody who thinks differently. Can you imagine being in his church?Or worse, being his wife or kid? I believe he is sick.

  49. Interesting use of of words to the church of Ephesus in regards to certain leaders as “Nicolatians” which meaning is translated actually is “conquering the laity.” Prima Scripturia!

  50. Bill Kinnon,

    Thank you for your excellent posts on the Driscoll interview. So glad a few men like yourself are challenging Mark Driscoll. You give us hope.

    Blessings!

  51. Dee,
    That was the gentlest “gotcha” ever, wasn’t it. I’m afraid I would have lost it with Mark’s condescension. Justin was incredibly gracious.

    Are you referencing Krish Kandia? His was the 2nd blog post I read on this and I link to him in the previous Undiscipled post.

    MD exhibits far too many of the traits of NPD… as does his “mentor,” CJM.

    Love what you folk are doing at TWW. I’m a regular reader. And thanks for reminding me to read Wade!

  52. One of the things that I find intriguing in this mess is this: doesn’t Driscoll go on about how he practices biblical church government? By that I mean that there is supposed to be a board of elders that he is part of – that he is responsible to. I realize, of course, that he restructured his church’s board of elders several years ago; nevertheless, I can’t imagine how a Mark Dever let’s this guy get away with calling his church “elder led” or “elder governed”.

    Perhaps Dr. R. Scott Clark serves as a good example here. Dr. Clark is Professor of Church History and Historical Theology at Westminster Seminary in California. He is also the Associate Pastor of Oceanside United Reformed Church in Carlsbad, California.

    During a internet dustup about two years ago, Dr. Clark wrote a couple of posts at his now defunct blog that got him in hot water with his fellow elders at Oceanside. In fact, unless I am gravely mistaken, I believe the Senior Minister at Oceanside was on of Dr. Clark’s students. When the elders determined that Dr. Clark acted inappropriately via his online statements, he was disciplined by that board and took his blog down.

    I don’t point this out to say, “See what a nasty guy Scott Clark is,” but to say, “See how biblical discipline and eldership is supposed to work!!” Dr Clark publicly repented for his statements, asked for forgiveness, and is now seeking to walk in repentance and holiness. Praise God for that!

    Would to God that someone would have the biblical integrity to discipline Mark Driscoll in the same way!

  53. I have no use for egocentric privileged but ignorant (in every sense of the word,) men like Driscoli and Mahaney.

    In my opinion, they’re like the spoiled brat in the neighborhood; people put up with them. The second they are not given anything for their efforts, they will either go away from the headlines or change.

    Either one of those two things would be a relief.

  54. Dee and Deb,
    What is your take on the fascination and the suffocating focus on “young men” in ministry? SGM often lauds the superiority of young leaders. Weren’t Noah, Moses, Elija, Paul, John, etc., etc. over forty for most of their fruitful ministry?

  55. Argo

    It is an interesting phenomena. Usually, those who are young need some maturing before they can “rule” over a congregation. This may be an attempt to override legitimate concern of young men being “wet behind the ears.” Not only that, but young men are more easily controlled by the older guys with rigid ideology. Note the interview with Driscoll. He attempted to control him, with little success. The wannabe young guys admire and model their “superiors.”

    Funny thing is that men like Driscoll and Young Jr.act like they are still young and that is why some of them dress like they are still in their 20s or seek out surgical help to maintain that appearance. They end up looking ridiculous but they don’t see it.

  56. Dee,
    I thought about what meaninful response I could interject concerning your excellent post, in which you cast a light of righteous skepticism and criticism on yet another blight upon the Lord’s church from none other than Mr. Young and Famous himself (the two most important character traits of pastoring, so I hear…I think it’s proof texted from somewhere in the Book of the New Torah, which is somewhere buried amongst Paul’s epistles I think, kind of like one of those I Spy books kids get, except, you know, for reformed pastors…I’m not sure where, exactly, but your local pastor at your local church located next to your local upper middle class neighborhood will know). And I thought, and thought, and then…it hit me. The prefect response to interview/hullabaloo in question:

    Ew.

    -Argo

  57. And can I just say that I have an almost idolatrous love of the female gender and the UK…so it’s like these Calvinista’s are going out of their way just to annoy me personally! Uncanny!!

  58. Argo

    Your star is rising in the TWW firmament for that perceptive and artfully articulated response!! 🙂

  59. Reformed Rebel –

    Thanks for that great example from California!

    I am curious as to what you know or don’t know about Mark Dever. You seem to think that he would be someone who would not let Mark Driscoll get away with certain things (not practicing biblical church government?).

    You may, or may not, be aware that Mark Dever is the pastor in DC who has welcomed CJ Mahaney into his church and care when CJ felt he and his family could not receive care at his own church. If you know Mark Dever, by all means please question him on this as well as on where he stands in regards to Driscoll’s nonesense.

    Driscoll and Mahaney seem to have set up some kind of sham eldership system whereby they are kingpins. We never see anyone, among their own eldership (unless it is someone who has left their fold), calling them out for what they say or do. The people who do call them out when they have left are labelled as gossips and slanderers (convenient). And beyond that, we rarely see other Christian “leaders” speak up about what they see or hear.

    I seem to remember some correction taking place among the disciples of Christ. It seems it was important and wise, since it was allowed into scripture, and it kept the flock safe from false teaching. I don’t see this correction happening among the “leaders” of our day. Could it be because they all attend the same conferences and do write-ups in each others’ books? It seems to continually come down to the money flow, instead of for the sake of the kingdom, the flocks, and God’s glory.

    I am not trying to be snarky at all. I am currently in a small SGM church, so I am familiar with much in the SGM realm – thanks to blogs. I don’t know if my church or myself will remain in SGM. But I am interested if you have any background on they “why” of Mark Dever as well as other leaders who keep silent.

  60. Dee and Argo –

    The “young leaders” are now under the mentoring (control?) of the “one” who appointed them and often fear for their jobs/income/family’s well-being if they don’t agree and keep in step with the norm of their group of churches. It is a very disturbing trend of subtle control from above. “Truely” called young leaders may not even be aware of it happening and it can cripple a man who might otherwise be an excellent shepherd down the road. 🙁

  61. I’m a British guy from London and heard the interview in full. Seems to me that Driscoll has a pretty good and clear understanding of the state of the Church here in the UK. The sad reality is that he is right – there is a real crisis here in the UK. UCL research published in the college magazine last month points out the AVERAGE age of a church goer in the the UK is 61 years old. Seems to me a lot of people want to shoot the messenger but is it really that controversial? Not in London it isn’t.

  62. Paul
    So is Krish wrong? Please comment on his blog.What about all of those guys that he mentions? Surely you have campus groups at your universities-I have heard of some of them.Do you think Driscoll should have called Brierly a coward? Do you think Driscoll should have misrepresented Brierly’s questions? Since you listened to the interview, do you believe that Driscoll exhibited Christian love and a measured, mature response?

    Do you think the US is any different than England? Do you know the average age of church leaders in the US (53).Did you know that 83.6% of Americans do not attend a conventional church on Sundays? Did Driscoll let you know that in the US the average age of church attendance according to some polls is 51-53 years old? Did you know that most people tend to return to church after children come along?

    From a political perspective, could it be that a state run church may be different from independent churches? What are the stats of church age in independent, evangelical churches?

    Do you think that discussing oral and anal sex is a good way to draw “young men” into the church? So, Driscoll gets young guys into church by discussing a Jesus who is coming to beat up the bad guys and Jesus had biceps. Do the ends justify the means?

  63. Paul
    In fact, as the Calvinista set continue their ascendency, average attendance in churches continues to fall.Most people like to claim that 40% of people go to church in the US but it is much less as new studies admit that those that claim to go to church and those that actually go are not the same.

  64. I like what Carl Trueman had to say in response to Driscoll’s statement “Let’s just say this: right now, name for me the one young, good Bible teacher that is known across Great Britain. You don’t have one – that’s the problem.”-“Notice the three important elements of this sentence: the definite article, ‘young’ and ‘known across Britain.’ The Great Man, youth and fame: not high on the list of Paul’s priorities; and three basic elements of celebrity culture. A bit of a poker tell, is it not?”

  65. Christopher
    You get it, I get it. What really gets me going is all the theologians who fall all over themselves defending this guy. It brings to mind some Bible passages which say that in the last days, there will arise teachers who will deceive even the leaders. I don’t usually go getting apocalyptic and all, given my views on the Left Behind frenzy but, if the shoe fits…. Did Christianity in America take a detour along the way?
    BTW, I really need to post another Prince Poppycock video that seems to represent Driscoll, It was done to “I’m a Yankee Doodle Dandy”