"Those who tell the stories also hold the power."
Plato
The Colosseum (taken by Deb)
Five months ago many were surprised by the reconciliation of C.J. Mahaney and Larry Tomczak.
LARRY WHO? We would imagine that this was a typical reaction of newcomers in Sovereign Grace Ministries. Kris over at SGM Survivors recently explained: (link)
"Prior to early 2008, there was NOTHING anywhere online (except for the comments to that one now-defunct blog post where the subject of SGM had come up) that connected SGM to Larry T. All of SGM’s carefully sanitized history made it sound like PDI sort of popped up in the early 2000s as a fully-formed “family of churches” that had been founded by CJ alone." (Comment 109)
Sidney, who sometimes comments on the SGM Survivors blog, chimed in with this startling remark:
"I just checked with one of my “peeps” who’s still at CLC. They told me that at some family meeting this summer, the question was asked about Larry being “removed” from history. Josh said that he was, that was wrong and that he would be put back in history and they won’t be doing that anymore. Good move, CLC pastors, for having a conscience…it’s NOT 'too little too late'…it’s 'better late than never.' " (Comment 115 – same link as above)
In case you're wondering how history had been rewritten, here is what the Covenant Life Church website stated as of July 20, 2011. Thanks, Sydney, for preserving this and posting it on the SGM Survivors blog for all to read (Comment 112 – same link as above). CLC's history used to read:
"In the 1970s, a weekly meeting known as “Take and Give” (TAG) drew thousands to the D.C. area for passionate Bible teaching. C.J. Mahaney, a young preacher converted in the wake of the Jesus Movement, was one of the leaders of TAG’s successful ministry. He longed for something more than an assembly of loosely connected Christians. C.J. and other leaders wanted to build a local church like those they saw modeled in the New Testament.
So in 1977, they started a church. A small group of Christians (22 at the first meeting) began to gather in the basement of a suburban Maryland home. Together, they committed to build a community where they could learn and grow and worship God together.
As the young church grew, it met in dozens of local schools and facilities around Montgomery County. Then in the early ‘90s, God provided 40 acres in the middle of Gaithersburg, where Covenant Life began to build a permanent home.
In 1997, God drew a young author and speaker named Joshua Harris to the vision of the local church. After much prayer and counsel, Joshua moved from Oregon to Maryland to be trained in ministry by C.J. At Covenant Life, Joshua encountered a church that earnestly applied God’s Word, loved the work of God’s Spirit, and prized genuine relationships.
Seven years later, in 2004, C.J. installed Joshua Harris as the new senior pastor of the church that he founded. After 27 years of faithful pastoring, C.J. could now give himself to serving Sovereign Grace Ministries full time.
Covenant Life continues to be a growing, culturally diverse church with evangelistic passion, love for the local community, and a commitment to planting other churches. Though our family has grown, Covenant Life is still working to build a community of gospel-centered people—the same goal cherished by those first 22 members who met in a basement."
As a comparison/contrast, here is the history of Covenant Life Church, which was recently rewritten by the current CLC leadership.
"Over a four-year period in the 1970s, a meeting known as “Take and Give” (TAG) began drawing as many as 2000 per week to Washington, D.C., for passionate Bible teaching and worship. C.J. Mahaney and Larry Tomczak, both young preachers converted in the wake of the Jesus Movement, were the leaders of TAG’s successful ministry. But they longed for something more than an assembly of loosely connected Christians and wanted to build a local church like those they saw modeled in the New Testament.
So in 1977, they disbanded TAG and started a church. A small group of Christians (22 at the first meeting) began to gather in the basement of a suburban Maryland home. Together, they committed to build a community where they could learn and grow and worship God together.
As the young church grew, it met in dozens of local schools and facilities around Montgomery County. Then in the early ‘90s, God provided 40 acres in the middle of Gaithersburg, where Covenant Life began to build a permanent home. By this time, C.J. and Larry had parted ways (that story is best told here).
In 1997, God drew a young author and speaker named Joshua Harris to the vision of the local church. After much prayer and counsel, Joshua moved from Oregon to Maryland to be trained in ministry by C.J. At Covenant Life, Joshua encountered a church that earnestly applied God’s Word, loved the work of God’s Spirit, and prized genuine relationships.
Seven years later, in 2004, C.J. installed Joshua Harris as the new senior pastor of the church that he founded. After 27 years of faithful pastoring, C.J. could now give himself to serving Sovereign Grace Ministries full time.
Covenant Life continues to be a growing, culturally diverse church with evangelistic passion, love for the local community, and a commitment to planting other churches. Though our family has grown, Covenant Life is still working to build a community of gospel-centered people—the same goal cherished by those first 22 members who met in a basement."
Perhaps you are wondering how prevalent the rewriting of history is among those whom we define as Calvinistas (see glossary of terms).
Recently, we read an article posted on the 9 Marks website written by a pastor from our area who is a Council Member for The Gospel Coalition. His name is Andy Davis, and he serves as Senior Pastor of First Baptist Church in Durham. Davis wrote a lengthy piece entitled "The Reform of First Baptist Church of Durham". (link)
In God's sovereignty, Dee and I happen to know some of the principals involved in the 'so-called' reform of First Baptist Durham. They have read Andy's article, and let's just say that there is definitely another side to this story. At some point in the future, we may set the record straight.
Yes, it certainly appears that Calvinista pastors can twist things to their advantage. We shared an excellent example of this in a recent post entitled "A Letter to My Daughters – A Megapastor Excoriates TWW". (link) If you haven't read it, we encourage you to do so. Hopefully, it will shed some light on the lengths to which Calvinista pastors will go to slant the truth in their favor. When the Calvinistas control their own press, they definitely shine! Just remember – all that glitters is not gold. It may even be Fool’s Gold.
Plato's dictum has been true for over two millenniums. History is usually told from the perspective of the victor because he alone has the platform. In God's providence, we have seen a profound change in the last few years. Now victims have a platform when they decide they've had enough! It's called the internet. Larry Tomczak is an excellent example of this incredible phenomenon. The key is that victims MUST tell the absolute truth, as we believe Tomczak is doing.
In case you haven't noticed, there is a new set of rules in effect. Here are SEVEN of them:
(1) No longer can a pastor control his own press.
(2) The pulpit is no longer a one-way microphone. Because of the internet and blogs, there are so many microphones that it has become a dialogue.
(3) While pastors may perceive things to be one way, they need to assume that people are going to dig down deep for the truth and not just take the pastor at his word.
(4) Some pastors have been clamoring to be noticed, and they should not be surprised that some who come and take a look may not like what they see and dare to say so.
(5) Remember, anything a pastor puts on the internet lasts forever. If he attempts to remove the evidence, he needs to keep in mind that folks these days are savvy. They are documenting information BEFORE it is removed, and it will show up again…
(6) We highly recommend that pastors refrain from editing out portions of their sermons they put online or altering their transcripts. People are listening and taking notes…
(7) If you chastise from the pulpit, expect to be chastised in a comparable forum like the internet.
Guys, it's a whole new ballgame. Batter up!
Lydia's Corner: Esther 4:1-7:1 1 Corinthians 12:1-26 Psalm 36:1-12 Proverbs 21:21-22
Deb/Dee. I’m not at all sure that “Calvinistas” are necessarily more prone to rewrite history than “Arminianistas.”
The Adamic curse resides in us all.
Speaking of the Adamic curse; pedophilia is rampant in Hollywood ( the entertainment biz.) http://tinyurl.com/88qanfm
You are actually safer in church as a child then the star of a sitcom.
“So in 1977, they started a church. A small group of Christians (22 at the first meeting) began to gather in the basement of a suburban Maryland home.”
From what I understand, the basement they gathered in was in the Tomczak residence.
Another great post.
Actually the version of history that you post is actually better than they had up around 2008 before they posted the 2008 version you show. Part of what was on their website was:
“In 1974, Gary became a staff member at TAG, a ministry in Washington, D.C., led by C. J.
C.J. has served as Senior Pastor of Covenant Life Church since its inception in 1977. In a special service on Sept. 19, 2004, he passed the senior pastor baton to Joshua Harris.”
I share this on a blog I have a few posts on:
http://sguncensored.blogspot.com/2008/03/did-sovereign-grace-ministries-forget.html
In the blurb I quote above there are at least two pieces of misinformation. One is where they said TAG was “led by C. J.” That is incorrect it was led by Larry and C.J.
When they said “C.J. has served as Senior Pastor of Covenant Life Church since its inception in 1977” is another falsehood. For a significant period of time Larry and CJ both were copastors. They were definitely copastors at the beginning.
The 2008 version that you posted was what they come up in response to people on the SGM blogs pointing out their outright lies. CLC apparently “sanitized” the lies to where they could be considered truthful by using words such as “other leaders” rather than claiming C.J. was the sole leader. They didn’t have to mention Tomczak and could still be considered truthful since Tomczak’s presence was mention as an “other leader.”
I don’t think I have a screen shot or saved the posts that said this. If I do I will send them to you. Maybe these older CLC websites are available on a webarchive program.
The new rules look like an extension of an old rule, at least an old rule I learned as a journalism student.
Anything you put up to the public becomes public record and it becomes easier to establish through that public record how and when you change your story. Once that is established it doesn’t take any stroke of genius to start figuring out why.
Then again, I’m not sure the libertarian theory of the press is all that. Let’s not forget McCarthyism while we’re at it.
Seneca
I can give you plenty of examples of Calvinistas. We have defined the term carefully. Can you please define an Arminianista and give us an example on the level of CJ Mahaney or Al Mohler?
Deb
You know, these Calvinistas always complain that others “gossip”, “spread slander” etc. Yet, that is exactly what they do when they write snappy little treatises about “How I took over a church and those people were sooooo mean to me.” You see, if they are Calvinistas, they must tell the truth, especially their own version.
Do any of them ever consider the self serving nature of these whiny missives? Oh, better yet, have any of them ever considered the pain caused to others in their holy mission to impose secondary doctrines and make them practically salvific? I wonder how they sleep at night, knowing they gave the left boot of fellowship to good and decent people.
Good job, friend. I look forward to exposing the other side to this sad story at a future date.
“From what I understand, the basement they gathered in was in the Tomczak residence.”
It was actually in the Patton’s basement. The Patton I am referring to is Bill Patton’s father. Bill Patton was originally in MD but moved to the Philadelphia area to establish CFC.
This is a brilliant, wonderful post my amazing girls! 🙂
Love it – it is exactly what I’ve been thinking. Many pastors of the Mahaney/Harvey age are reacting negatively about the internet and get very upset with comments on blogs.
But what occured to me was that pastors could see this positively, and actually use social networking to advance the gospel!
I love your rules – will repost if I may!
Dan,
Feel free to repost the new rules. Glad you appreciated the post.
It’s peripherial to your main point above but I had read of the FBC Durham “reform” when it was touted by SEBTS prof Nathan Finn. The narrative sounded far too tendentious. I look forward to your contribution to the matter.
William
I do not like to see good and decent people who love the Lord and served their church for years get the left boot of fellowship because of a snow job. For some, the greatest thing one can do is take over a church and run it exactly as he wants. This is not a pastor but a dictator. (I am not talking primary doctrine here.) So much could have been avoided with humility and love. Do they teach those things at SBTS from whence Andy Davis emerged?
William
Great word: tendentious. And there has been a lot of that going around recently!
Steve 240,
Thanks for the clarification about where SGM started. I just discovered where I got the idea that it started in the Tomczak’s basement. Here is what I read some time ago on the Christ the King website – the church the Tomczaks started in Georgia after leaving PDI.
Christ the King History
CTK (Christ the King) began in the basement of Founder and former Senior Pastor Larry & Doris Tomczak’s home in Acworth, GA.
Dee,
According to the church website, “Dr. Andrew Davis became pastor of First Baptist in 1998.”
FBC Durham History
That was quite a while before most of us knew about the young, restless, and reformed movement.
PASTOR SEARCH COMMITTEES – I hope you are paying attention… Make sure you ask the right questions when vetting pastoral candidates. You might even want to draw up a contract stating that if the newly hired pastor imposes his Calvinistic beliefs on the congregation that he will be relieved of his duties at the church.
Also, assume candidates coming from Southern Seminary are clones of the seminary president.
You only need to look at his “recollection” of the votes on the by-laws to see that there is more to this story, possibly much more. Somehow this guy can remember exactly how many votes he lost by and can’t recollect the exact number that he won by in the subsequent year? Also, this humble, kind, and generous pastor kept the vote cards of the one he lost and not the one that he won? This doesn’t jive with the fact that he also supposedly kept the cards from when the elders were approved.
I can almost imagine walking into his office and hearing him proclaim like Aaron of old, “These are the gods which brought you out of Egypt.”
Daniel,
Thanks for reading Davis’ article so carefully. In due time, we will try to get to the bottom of this supposed “reformation” of FBC Durham.
Seneca, The difference between Hollywood and the church is that one expects to find pedophiles or sexual perversion in Hollywood. People expect to be safe in church because supposedly “believers” are there. Not sure how your position makes spiritual sense.
This survivors comment gives some more history.
Nice article Deb!
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=5
Pingback: Rewriting History SGM Style | The Wartburg Watch | Harp and Bowl Worship
Diane,
Thanks for sharing the link. Just read through this post once again. The commenter shared so many details regarding the history of PDI/SGM.
Deb,
Love your article and the new rules!
“PASTOR SEARCH COMMITTEES – I hope you are paying attention… Make sure you ask the right questions when vetting pastoral candidates. You might even want to draw up a contract stating that if the newly hired pastor imposes his Calvinistic beliefs on the congregation that he will be relieved of his duties at the church.”
There is something interesting taking place, at least in some churches. Search committees don’t ask the questions, and the pastor is hired anyway. He gradually, and probably methodically, introduces his Calvinistic beliefs. Because many of us have been conditioned, from cradle roll, to trust whatever the pastor says, folks start absorbing it. I’ve seen this happen. I also know families who began attending a new church planted by a former megachurch minister. Several years into his ministry, according to a friend, “He really grew and changed and now preaches the doctrines of grace.” Some folks have left, but a lot have stayed and embraced Calvinism. I can’t say for sure if they’re becoming Calvinistas, but there are a few comments I’ve heard that made the red flags go up.
The further my brother got into his seminary training at SEBTS, the more Calvinism I heard in his messages. What is interesting, though, is that you have to really be paying attention. In the churches where I heard him preach, he knew he had to be subtle, but it was there. People didn’t seem to react at all. The church who hired him as pastor isn’t a reformed church, but I have no doubt whatsoever that he is methodically changing things. He’s big on the Family Integrated Church too, so I’d love to know how far he’s gotten with eliminating age-segregated classes and ministries.
“Those who tell the stories also hold the power.”
Plato
I find George Orwell to have much more impact:
Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party: “There is a Party slogan about the past. Recite.”
6079 Smith W, Outer Party: “Whoever controls the present controls the past. Whoever controls the past controls the future.”
Comrade O’Brian: “Where does the Past exist?”
6079 Smith W: “In recorded history, and in the minds of men.”
Comrade O’Brian: “We, the Party, control all history. We, the Party, control men’s minds. So We, the Party, control the Past, and We, the Party, control the Future. Long Live Big Brother!”
Deb,
Same goes for SWBTS and its president. Did you see the item about the 3500 seat chapel at SWBTS. But people who have been on campus recently said the visible population of students in down, not up.
If you would like another example of SGM duplicity or at least “spin” someone pointed out that SGM decided to take down Mahaney’s entry on why he is taking a leave of absence and the cofession he gave at CLC in July:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/cj-mahaney/post/Why-Im-taking-a-leave-of-absence.aspx
while at the same time SGM thought it was proper to keep Larry’s “chummy” account of his reconciliation with Mahaney:
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/A-letter-from-Larry-Tomczak-on-his-reconciliation-with-CJ-Mahaney.aspx
SGM likes to keep up what makes them look good but takes away what might make them look bad.
Steve 240,
Yes, I find the action of SGM’s Board to be extremely hypocritical. They are obviously so out of touch with reality that they can’t comprehend how utterly foolish they look to those outside their little bubble.
Arce,
I saw the chapel online a few days ago. And here I thought SWBTS was having financial problems.
They are. This was a donor thing, and on top of that, it was designed to host events with ticket sales and all of that.
Eagle,
Very strained.
My brother was born when I was 11, and our other brother was 9. Since we were quite a bit older, we doted on him. I was like a second mother to him, and as he got older, we had a nice friendship. He was also close to my husband. We always had a great time together and a lot of laughs.
I do think there is brainwashing at SEBTS and by all the Calvinista heroes they put on a throne. We definitely saw changes in my brother’s personality and interactions with family when he went to SEBTS. He became very serious and dogmatic in his new belief system. It became (still is) difficult to have an ordinary conversation with him. I’ve mentioned here before that he sent us a 20-page document in the mail while at SEBTS that included John Piper’s Divorce and Remarriage paper. I divorced an abusive man after a short marriage and married my husband (who’d never been married). When we received this paper and his letter explaining that our marriage was not recognized by God, we’d been married for several years and had three small children. We tried to get past the craziness. I kept telling my husband and my other brother that, once out of the seminary bubble and in the real world, as a pastor to real people who have real needs, he’d go back to normal. I was wrong.
He married a woman who also graduated from SEBTS. He told us about two years ago that any relationship they have with us will be on their terms, not ours. So, the family sees them only at Christmas. It’s very awkward. We’re still grieving the loss.
Thanks for reading. It’s nice to have people who understand.
Wendy,
What you have described is exactly what happens in many families when one of its members gets sucked into AMWAY. Cult-like behavior develops in the “enlighted” one.
Thanks for sharing your testimony here, and please know that I will be praying for you.
Wendy,
On the divorce issue, I read Piper’s position on divorce that you can access online, and he concludes that the spouse who divorced and remarried should remain in the CURRENT marriage. Has Piper revised his position?
Also, you husband broke his marriage vows by being abusive to you.
Deb,
I read the paper several years ago, and I’ve also seen a divorce and remarriage statement online. I assume it’s the same one, though I haven’t read it. With regard to second marriage, I don’t think Piper advocates going back to the first spouse or separating from the current spouse. However, this is what we were told, after my brother studied Piper’s position – God doesn’t leave or break covenants. Thus, he is still in the first covenant. He does not recognize second marriage and is not part of the second covenant. I can’t remember if this is all spelled out in the paper, and I can’t put my hands on the documents my brother sent us. I may have tossed them. On the Desiring God website, Piper is asked how he handles divorce and remarriage in his congregation. He said something to the effect of – We have an understanding. We know divorce and remarriage isn’t God’s ideal, but God gives grace. This is reasonable. He didn’t go into covenants there.
Wendy,
I agree that God doesn’t break covenants, but sadly, people do. If your brother laid that kind of guilt trip on you, I wouldn’t blame you for tossing out what your brother sent you.
May God continue to bless you in your wonderful marriage!
Wendy, Piper tried to take on David Instone Brewer who is a scholar at Tyndale House in London over this issue. You really should google and listen to some of Brewers teaching on this issue. First of all, God allowed divorce for neglect (abuse is neglect) in the OT. Secondly, God threatened divorce in the OT with Judah.
Ww lost family to Piper, too. These celebs are divisive and want the followers all to themselves and not influenced by anyone outside their thinking.
Going back to the earliest comments, I suppose an an arminiamista example of rewriting history would be the ICOC. A search on http://www.icocco-op.org/ for the founder and former pyramid-top Kip McKean returns just one result, which doesn’t mention he’s the founder. He was ousted about 8 years ago, and a family member who joined after that time didn’t know who he was for quite awhile. There are many more details (from his perspective) on http://www.kipmckean.com. I believe his roots go back to the same shepherding/discipleship movement as the other guys, just in a “restoration” movement context rather than charismatic.
International Church of Christ, from my few encounters with them, was really creepy.
Ironically (though not ultimately) most cults have developed out of a restorationist impulse. The Pentecostal and then the charismatic movement were pretty restorationist in their goals, after all.
In the churches where I heard him preach, he knew he had to be subtle, but it was there. People didn’t seem to react at all. The church who hired him as pastor isn’t a reformed church, but I have no doubt whatsoever that he is methodically changing things. — Wendy
In other words, Bait and Switch. Use deceit and pretense to get into position over the prey, then stage the coup from within. Use “salami tactics” to change things one little step at a time until the frog is boiling and the coup is complete.
Really sounds like the Gospel, doesn’t it?
Wendy,
I’m so sorry that your relationship with your brother has been strained because of his beliefs. It doesn’t seem that two people in the same family who are now believers should be estranged from one another. Doesn’t it seem that when family members become believers, that they would then (and forever) enjoy fellowship together in Christ? It seems that this is what God would want. It really makes you think about why so many (c)hurch relationships cause division in family members instead of unity in Christ. What Gospel are we hearing in our churches these days?
Your brother said, “God doesn’t leave or break covenants. Thus, he is still in the first covenant. He does not recognize second marriages and is not part of the second covenant.”
I’d like to see/know where your brother got this from – does he have scripture references?
Here is my thinking. God is definitely part of second covenants from what I can tell. Jesus brought us a new and BETTER covenant according to Hebrews. God made several covenants with his people and gave them the law. He never broke any of his promises or covenants. People, however, are another matter. He knew we were not able to keep the law perfectly and sent his Son.
I believe God thinks very highly of the covenant of marriage, and many take it too lightly. But at the same time, would God be more concerned with the covenant of marriage itself than the well-being of the people in the marriage? I just don’t see God wanting a person to stay in an abusive marriage because somehow that proved something about godliness or about God himself (keeping covenants). It seems that some of these pastor’s are trying to make people keep “to the letter of the law” instead living in the grace of Jesus Christ. No one needs to die or be beat up or be emotionally abused willingly (this is what some of these leaders might call dying to self – NOT) in a marriage to prove anything. Jesus already went to the cross on our behalf. No one needs to do it again to save anyone.
I know I’m preaching to the choir here.
Anonymous – “We lost family to Piper, too.”
As in they don’t associate with you anymore because of differing Christian beliefs? I’m so sorry Anonymous.
THIS IS CRAZINESS!!
Headless and Bridget,
You will like the story tomorrow. Talk about chutzpah!
Wikipedia keeps all revisions online. Lets be a bit more accurate as we are calling for transparency. ‘2008’ and ‘nothing’ are a bit of an overstatement.
Revision as of 05:49, 29 December 2006 (edit)
The group has roots in “Take and Give” charismatic meetings held by Mahaney and Larry Tomczak in the [[Washington, D.C.]] area. Most of them were former [[Roman Catholic]]s who had been impacted by the charismatic movement. This group eventually grew into Covenant Life Church. In [[1982]], Mahaney and Tomczak founded ”’People of Destiny International”’ as an umbrella organization for their ministries. It changed its name to ”’PDI Ministries”’ in [[1998]] and to Sovereign Grace Ministries in [[2003]].
To see what wikipedia had online in regard to Larry in Dec 2006 click the link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sovereign_Grace_Ministries&oldid=97086196
In September of 2006 CJ is listed as one of the founders, but not as the sole founder. There is no mention of Larry being the other one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sovereign_Grace_Ministries&oldid=77187461
Unassimilated,
Thanks for the links. Just read through both of them. I didn’t know you can view ALL previous edits. Thanks for pointing this out!
Here’s how the Oct. 14, 2006 Wiki article begins (no mention of Tomczak):
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sovereign_Grace_Ministries&direction=prev&oldid=88470486
“Sovereign Grace Ministries is a non-denominational, “Reformed Charismatic” group of Christian churches primarily located in the United States. Sovereign Grace comprises between 61 and 70 churches*[1] and professes “sound doctrine” from the Bible, as well as the active working of the Holy Spirit. Sovereign Grace is led by author and former pastor C.J. Mahaney. The flagship church, Gaithersburg, Maryland’s Covenant Life Church, is now pastored by author Joshua Harris.”
I’m looking back through the 2008 edits for Tomczak’s name.
Unassimilated,
Here’s something interesting in the April 27, 1998 issue of Christianity Today.
“The People of Destiny movement, based in Gaithersburg, Maryland, has changed its name to PDI Ministries. It is a network of 33 churches founded by Larry Tomczak and C. J. Mahaney.”
I guess Tomczak left PDI shortly after this announcement (?)
Here’s something fascinating I just came across which originated on the 9 Marks website as far as I can tell. Looks like it was written in 1999, and there’s no mention of Tomczak who had just left the previous year. Out of sight, out of mind…
http://www.alliancenet.org/CC/article/0,,PTID314526_CHID598026_CIID1562436,00.html
Toler, Stan and Alan Nelson, The Five Star Church, (Regal: 1999).
“I recently attended a leadership conference organized by a group of churches known as PDI Ministries. The setting for the conference was a hotel in Maryland, a nice and cozy place with ample space for meeting with friends, talking about ministry, and catching up with old acquaintances. My church’s staff had been invited to the conference by PDI’s leader, C.J. Mahaney. If you know the name, you just smiled. I know—you just can’t help it. C.J. is one of those rare breed of men that epitomize the love and discipline that mark the Christian life. In fact, I can say that my only regret about the time I have spent with him is that it has been so little. There is much I could say about the church that C.J. leads, but in the course of reviewing Stan Toler and Alan Nelson’s The Five-Star Church, I want to point out just one aspect of their ministry: PDI Ministries majors in excellence. The church’s commitment to quality was evident from the moment we arrived at the conference. Everything was professionally designed and professionally presented…”
Bridget2–
The sad thing is that when I attended CHBC, I’d hear people often speak in this manner about their family members. People were quick to deem them “not really Christians” and so forth and before a holiday, etc… would come up to the front of the church, tell us they are going home, who in their family wasn’t a Christian, and ask us to pray for “opportunities” they would have to “share” the “Gospel” with them.
Sadly, I fell into that same trap, but by the Grace of God, I got out soon enough that there was time and grace on the part of my family members, from whom I was becoming quite distant because of their beliefs and lifestyles. I had become a Reformed, puritan-loving a-hole… like most others whom I knew there.
Point blank, the church isn’t your real family and they will diss you and dump you as fast as you can say Spurgeon. But with my real family, it’s a different story. They really ARE my family. I can get mad at my mom, be snippy with her for no reason, or be distant and she will forgive me, but not only that, she won’t give me up simply because I’m not doing exactly as she wishes.
It’s funny because now the conversations we have (my family and I) about Christianity are much different. My sister definitely struggles with believing because of some messed up stuff we learned from our old churches, and I can’t say that I’ve helped her any better when I attended CHBC. But now that I am out, the more I discover God’s true heart, his grace, his ability to understand that the world is not black and white, the more I am able to try and at least slightly convey what that love is like to my family. I think my sister appreciates hearing that God isn’t seeking to condemn her all the time and that he cares more about the people he created than church attendance, doctrine, and so forth.
I am also glad that as I had begun to turn around and leave the church, my family really didn’t mention what was happening and sort of just accepted that I had become distant for a short time, but now I’m back. There really hasn’t been much mention of it. But I did bring up the subject and told them somewhat what was going on. They understood, believe it or not.
But many of you here know much of my story–and some of you know that even in the beginning, my mom had just one day told me to be sure that I wasn’t in a cult. The reality of that moment haunts me as I think about it in retrospect, especially seeing the direction that CHBC has gone even in the past year that I’ve been gone. The “propaganda” that comes out of that place, and esp. on 9Marks website is unreal. None of them could ever preach to me again or even slightly approach me on the subject of God, the Gospel and anything in between.
A friend forwarded me some posts on 9Marks yesterday and I almost vomited. They are freakin’ ridiculous. I just simply stay away from it all. It’s not necessary for godliness, for reproof, for all things beneficial to the Christian life. They are preaching another gospel and another god and have no idea that they are.
Oh and let me not be rude….
Good Morning Blog Queens and friends! I’m not posting that much lately (work has been busy), but I am still inclining mine ear to thine blog 😉
Love,
NLR
WTH–
I, too, agree. This quest for originality generally ends up disastrous no matter how heart-filled the intent.
“Even in literature and art, no man who bothers about originality will ever be original: whereas if you simply try to tell the truth (without caring twopence how often it has been told before) you will, nine times out of ten, become original without ever having noticed it.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
Eagle, I am hearing this from quite a few sources about there being women wearing veils or Mennonite head cover at Captiol Hill Baptist Church. I don’t get it. And I mean that from a doctrinal view….I am a bit shocked they are not taught it is a false piety in that particular church.
For the record: I had only been there for almost 2 years and I never saw anyone wear veils. So I am thinking that may have been something that happened before my unfortunate arrival… That would have even been more strange. Glad I didn’t see that crap! Yes, can you say Taliban.
It is a question that I had pondered, right before my leaving… And that was, why was the practice there between men and women much like that of the Islamic religion. And then I pondered, Thabiti’s possible ease of transition from Islam to a place like CHBC, and wondered if it was easier because many of the ideals and beliefs weren’t so far off? Makes you think.
Eagle–
A lot of MCBers, especially those who went to Frontline, ended up coming to CHBC because they said that Frontline was awful and was crap. I kid you not. One day I was standing on the front steps chatting with some girls. This chick comes down the sidewalk with her 2-year-old. She looks at us. I spoke and said hello, how are you. She walked two feet. Stopped in her tracks. Came back and looked me in the face and said I am not okay. I was shocked. So I said well, what’s going on?
She told me about going to Frontline and how awful it was and many other things. I said well, I’ve heard some not-so-good things about it, but you should check out CHBC. I’ts amazing! (Yeah, I had a flask of kool-aid strapped to my thigh…but that’s another story). So I glowingly gave CHBC a good review. She did come and try it out. But since I had fallen quickly into the “Doing things but avoiding relationship” mode (I borrow that term from Stephy over at Stuff Christian Culture Likes) I avoided her. especially because her kid was very ill-mannered. But she had problems and well.. I didn’t have time for Christians with real problems that I couldn’t solve with a easy one-liner or Scriptural reference. Unfortunately, my non-friendship probably didn’t make her situation any better and I often wonder what happened to her.
re: Anonymous, “I am a bit shocked they are not taught it is a false piety in that particular church.”
Well, perhaps not commenting on it at all, beyond saying, “it’s not necessary, but it’s a nice fashion statement.”
But to communicate tsk tsk for wearing veils is kind of the same as tsk tsk for NOT wearing veils.
Freedom to choose to wear veils, freedom to choose not to wear veils.
Freedom to choose to wear Tshirt and jeans, freedom to choose to wear a suit & tie.
But this much is true: Flip Flops Forever!!
With regard to head coverings, Dee and I attended the SGM church near us in Apex several years ago. While there we observed a handful of women wearing cute white veils. They reminded us of Mennonites. That’s the only SGM church I have ever attended, so I can’t speak for the other affiliated churches.
NLR,
Could you clarify two things for me?
I have no idea what an MCBer is. Sounds like someone who uses a CB radio.
Also, what in the world is Frontline? In my vocabulary, it’s the flea and tick treatment I put on my Maltese. 🙂
…or fabulous investigative journalism on PBS.
Eagle–
Thanks! That was WAY better than I could have explained. But of course, it’s your flavor and not mine. Hahahaha I didn’t know Lon was a former Jew. Interesting.
Frontline is stupid to me. first of all, why put 20 somethings with 40 something singles? I know that younger marrieds go there as well, but from the many people I’ve spoken to who went, they were all like it’s a meat market, and it’s geared towards singles mainly.
I used to hate that singles minsitry was equated to youth ministry. Being single at 18 is not really being single. Being single at 30, or after a divorce, or spouse dying–now THAT’s being single. And there is still difference between a 30 something single and one who is 50. We all have different needs and experiences, why put us in the same pot?
In my mind, I cannot think of one good thing I’ve ever gotten from a singles ministry that I couldn’t have gotten somewhere else, except for a disdain for singles ministries. Hahahaha
It’s funny because even as MCB is legalistic in their own right, CHBC doesn’t agree wtih these satellite campuses Lon wants to create. Their view was that it wasn’t really church, and would be impossible to exercise church discipline as well as sheparding and tending to the flock if people are sitting in a movie theater watching a screen.
Hi Everyone,
Thank you for your comments and support. I really like you people! 🙂
Anonymous,
I’m sorry to hear that Piper has caused diviseness in your family as well. It’s like a cult leader taking his converts and hiding them away at his compound.
NLR,
I can relate to your testimony. My husband and I grew up in SBC churches and schools. For most of our lives, we believed that our leaders had more of God and knew more of God. We believed our doctrines, practices, and politics were just a little (or a lot) better than other Christians and the world at large. Although I never alienated family or friends, I’m sure that I came off as spiritually arrogant and judgmental at times. We definitely had hard and fast rules about things and a certain way of believing things should be (that wasn’t necessarily biblical). The funny thing is that, even as a committed Christian, I never considered myself as good and loyal and “conversative” as the people in the churches I’ve attended.
Due to the my brother’s rejection of us and a couple of church experiences over the past 5 or 6 years, we are now backtracking and re-thinking everything (almost) we’ve been programmed to believe since birth. I would say we’re going through a spiritual crisis of sorts. We’re not leaving Jesus. We don’t hold Him responsible, although I can understand some who’ve experienced spiritual/church abuse getting angry with God and scrapping the whole thing for a while. I think that’s part of the process, and I believe God is patient and loving during that time.
My husband and I both see the pain we’re experiencing as multi-layered. We have the pain of my brother allowing his hyper-Calvinism to put a wedge between him and the rest of his family. It simply hurts not to have a relationship with him and his wife and children. We also have the pain of seeing ourselves in the mirror when we look at my brother. We weren’t that extreme of course, but I think one of the reasons why his rejection is so painful is because we see a part of our former selves.
By the way, I loved your “Reformed, Puritan-loving a-hole” description. That gave me a chuckle. Thanks for your honesty.
“But to communicate tsk tsk for wearing veils is kind of the same as tsk tsk for NOT wearing veils.
Freedom to choose to wear veils, freedom to choose not to wear veils”
I understand your point but seriously, Paul was referring to a serious cultural dilemma in 1st Century Corinth. Women who did not cover were considered prostitutes. It is not a cultural dilemma for us today. So, why? That was my point. Of course, Catholic women often cover their head in church, so I get that “tradition” and why. But CHBC? I just do not get it.
Eagle,
When I wrote that, I was thinking of you and others I know of who’ve thrown everything out. I understand. I left you a comment on the previous Tomczak thread.
Anonymous, about veils:
Yes, why indeed. Where men and women & their relationships together are concerned, seems the air at CHBC is thick with shoulds and shouldn’ts and even nervousness about judgementalism over such rules and all the bewildering unwritten rules.
Perhaps a veil is just the most convenient way to deal with it all. No worries about making someone stumble by your beauty, no worries about restricting flirtatious eyes. And one can freely emote behind that veil, without being concerned about having to put on the mask of acceptable behavior. You can roll your eyes, smirk, look bored, generally be free to feel all the irritation and antagonism CHBC provokes.
Eagle
Many orthodox Christian do not believe in a pretrib rapture. In fact, even some of the Calvinista set are amillenial. There are ill-educated Christian who actually believe that all Christians are premil/pretrib and know little of the history of the development of that doctrine.
Although I am intrigued with all the fictional books surrounding this subject (have read quite a few myself-they have a sci fi flair) I am amillenial in my perspective but ardently wait for the Second Coming. I kind of wish that I believed in the pretrib thing because I like the idea of blinking out of this dimension and having people who were left behind irked because this gossipy blogger made it and they didn’t. (I guess that isn’t a Christian sentiment).
Anonymous
Frankly, I have no problem with people piercing their tongue, either, but find the practice a bit attention grabbing. I often wonder about people who wear veils when they know it is not required of them. Could it be that they are subtly conveying they are a bit more “devout” than others? It is kind of like the boom box craze of a few decades ago. The size of the boom box made a particular statement as to how “bad” you were.
Then, there was the SGM craze for shaving one’s head to look like a certain “head apostle.” Could those guys be expressing their absolute devotion to all things Mahaney? There was the “clean counter” craze in SGM. Those women were considered more devout. I cold go on and on.
Dee – I keep forgetting to say that the head-shaving thing seems to have spread far beyond SGM. Not sure if there are other “pastors” who took up the look when it 1st became fashionable, but I wouldn’t be surprised.
Numo
You are right-it is spreading. Could it be an evangelical fungus?
Dee – I 1st saw it up here circa 2004-05 (guys from one of the local “Bible churches”), so it’s definitely not a recent thing…
also, I like the idea of blinking into and out of other dimensions, but… I guess I would prefer to be able to decide when the blinking happens, and where. (Speaking from a purely speculative, sorta sci-fi-ish pov.)
Amillenial partial preterists of the world unite. 🙂 It’s a common misconception/misrepresentation that because amillenials don’t see the millenial reign as something to be interpreted literally they somehow don’t anticipate Jesus’ return. It’s also a substantial misrepresentation to say that amillenialists have to be “pessimillenialists”. If you stop and think about that for a bit you’ll see that the amillenialists are not bitching all the time about how godless the American culture is like the postmillenialist Reconstructionist monkeys. Who’s really the “pessimillenialists” now? 😉
Dee and all,
I consider myself non-millenial!!! That is, I am not certain about what some portions of Revelation mean. For one, I am not certain that John was reporting a vision that could be mapped in a sequential manner from vision to future — that is, are the events he foretells to happen in the same sequence as they appear in his writing. That idea is distinctly post 15th century. Secondly, the imagery may have had meanings to him and to his initial audience, but it appears that there are many scholars who disagree with each other on the meanings, so I cannot be sure enough of a meaning to believe I understand it.
Therefore, I choose not to believe any thing but the basic message of Revelation which is:
JESUS WILL WIN
BELIEVERS IN HIM WILL WILL WITH HIM
Is there anything else in the book that is as important as that?
oops.
BELIEVERS IN HIM WILL WIN WITH HIM
There are also some great hymns in Revelation.
@Wendy – FWIW Greg Boyd over at Woodland Hills has a couple of really good messages on marriage, divorce & remarriage from a couple of weeks ago. About as far from the stuff your brother sent you as you can get.
For bonus points, apparently Piper tried to have Boyd run out of the Southern Baptists because he disagrees with Boyd’s theology.
Deb, fwiw, Rule #5 is basically the Streisand Effect. The more they try and hide it, the more likely it will get reprinted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
Warwick
I did not know about the Streisand Effect but it is well named. I remember that controversy over pictures of her estate. Life has changed. You cannot control information via the pulpit. You cannot control it by calling it gossip. If these guys would learn that, the minute it is called gossip, it will spread like wildfire. You know how it goes. “Susie. Pastor Bob told us that we shouldn’t mention that Pastor Sam just built a $700,000 house. Just thought you should know so you wouldn’t spread such gossip.”
Davis made a mistake by publishing his rant against the heathens who used to be part of FBC Durham. Now, the whole subject will be raked over the coals one more time. And to think that blogging was not in full force when this incidence occurred. It could have faded off into the sunset. Now, his words, which sound quite self-serving and mean, will be recorded for time and eternity. Don’t these guys understand how they come across??
“I guess Tomczak left PDI shortly after this announcement (?)”
It was definitely after Tomczak left that PDI changed their name to SGM.
Below is a link for a timeline that someone put together on the issues SGM is having:
http://www.dipity.com/JennGrover/SGM-Crisis/
This timeline is showing that the name was changed to SGM in 2002. For some reason I thought the change was done earlier but I might be wrong.
Eagle
I did as you asked and deleted both the comment and your request.
Then, there was the SGM craze for shaving one’s head to look like a certain “head apostle.” — Dee
Born-Again Skinheads?
About women wearing veils:
I belong to a church with that reputation (Catholic). I remember having to deal with family members who were either offended or weirded out that “Catholic women have to wear veils in church.”
And you know the kicker? The only veils I’ve seen during Mass are (1) older women (to whom wearing veils was the custom when they were young) and (2) when “going formal” at major feast days. There’s also an ethnic factor; Hispanic women are more likely to “veil up” than Anglos — probably a factor of “Old Country” customs & taboos. But either way, I’ve never seen veils worn by more than a few percent of the women.
“Don’t these guys understand how they come across??”
Dee, dee, dee, dee, dee. No. They do not.
Because they’re right. And because they’re right, everyone who disagrees with them is wrong at best at worst an agent of Satan himself trying to destroy the Lord’s work.
They cannot afford a moment of self-doubt or introspection, because that might lead to a chain reaction of questions that might bring an entire lifetime of “ministry” into question.
Better to call those who question them unrepentant and drive them from their presence.
This comment and others brought to you by the statement of a girl who was once in the youth group of a church I was involved in many years ago (music ministry). We talked last week and this is what she told me: “all but one of us have not lost our faith in God, but we’ve all lost our faith in Christians”.
Weep with me.
Absolutely fab post again!
I’ve written a post based on my reflections on this “re writing of history”.
http://ern-baxter.blogspot.com/2011/12/re-writing-history-or-sauberung.html
It may be rather inflammatory but is it really any difference than the book burning by the Nazis?
Dunno! 😉
Interesting comments about McLean Bible Church. I attended there after leaving CLC, so I didn’t find them legalistic at all. found picked and chose what I found useful from Lon’s and the Frontline pastor’s sermons. I was in my 40’s when I was there, so I was more connected with the “middle singles” group.
I was burned at CLC and also this past year at another church by a pastor who was a narcissist without any accountability (but a deceptive guise of accountability that snowed a lot of people). I have my own issues with pastors and churches, but I am slowly trying to rebuild my faith. I am starting to enjoy attending church and beginning to get something out of my Bible again. But it’s amazing how much even the experience at CLC, which ended almost 12 year ago, still affects me to this day.
Dan, I would prefer to liken them to the Soviet propaganda spinmasters that would airbrush people out of pictures and then pretend they (the airbrushed to oblivion) never existed.
“Don’t these guys understand how they come across??”
Dee, dee, dee, dee, dee. No. They do not.
Because they’re right. And because they’re right, everyone who disagrees with them is wrong at best at worst an agent of Satan himself trying to destroy the Lord’s work.
They cannot afford a moment of self-doubt or introspection, because that might lead to a chain reaction of questions that might bring an entire lifetime of “ministry” into question.
Better to call those who question them unrepentant and drive them from their presence.
The same arrangement of the mind as in Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory, where all evidence against The Conspiracy is Disinformation Planted by The Conspiracy and lack of evidence for The Conspiracy is PROOF The Conspiracy is so Vast They Can Silence Anyone and Everyone. (Except, of course, the Conspiracy Theorist with his own Special Gnosis.)
The Dwarfs are for The Dwarfs, and Won’t Be Taken In.
I would prefer to liken them to the Soviet propaganda spinmasters that would airbrush people out of pictures and then pretend they (the airbrushed to oblivion) never existed. — Dan
doubleplusungood refs doubleplusunpersons.
doubleplusungood refs doubleplusunevents.
“And if The Party decrees that Two Plus To Is Not Four But Five?”
— Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984
Between The Times, the official blog of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary (SEBTS) has released its list of the TOP SIXTEEN books to give as Christmas gifts.
Check out one of the recommended books listed alongside classic works, such as: C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity, John Stott’s Basic Christianity, and Tim Keller’s The Reason for God.
Sending Santa to Amazon: Top Sixteen Books to Buy as Christmas Gifts
“C. J. Mahaney’s Living the Cross-Centered Life is a concise little book that shows us how to center our day on the life-giving reality of the gospel, and how to avoid the life-sapping temptations of legalism, condemnation, and feelings-centered Christianity.”
Obviously, this professor is clueless about recent developments in Sovereign Grace Ministries.
In case you’re interested, TWW has reviewed Mahaney’s “so-called” masterpiece.
Living the Cross Centered Life: A Deficient Gospel