SGM and Confusion in the Camp

"For God is not a God of confusion but of peace."

1 Corinthians 14:33 (ESV)

What in the world is going on in Sovereign Grace Ministries?  We are totally perplexed. The SGM leadership is causing confusion in the camp, and it is wreaking havoc throughout this "family of churches".  Remember, God is not the author of confusion.

In our previous post, we featured Mickey Connolly's admonition to the CrossWay congregation at a recent Family Meeting.  He warned them not to read anything written by Brent Detwiler or the anti-SGM blogs IF it would cause them to fall into temptationHere is what he said:

"From our biblical study, which we have presented to you tonight, and our prayerful perspective, we believe, sadly, that Brent clearly fits the definition of a man who is causing divisions and because of his refusal to cease has the potential to cause even further division and therefore must be marked as divisive.

Having nothing more to do with him, or avoiding him, would include not discussing these things with him personally, reading any of his materials on blogs or Facebook. That means if you have to defriend him to avoid the temptation, do that, or following the story on anti-Sovereign Grace Ministries blogs.

So I want to be clear. Not discussing this with him personally. Not reading any of his materials on blogs or Facebook or following the story on the anti-Sovereign Grace Ministries blogs." 

Perhaps someone could shed some light on exactly what temptation Connolly wants the CrossWay members to avoid.  Is it the temptation to leave, to sin, or to finally discover the truth?

Then we have Dave Harvey, acting president of SGM, making the following statements yesterday on the Sovereign Grace Ministries blog: (link)

"As we've grown we’ve made mistakes. Plenty of mistakes. Some of those mistakes have hurt people. In fact maybe you're one of those people. If so, we still want to hear your story. And if you’ve been hurt by things we’ve done wrong, we want the opportunity to say we’re sorry.

Right now we're in a time of identifying the different areas that Sovereign Grace Ministries needs to change. We’re pursuing as much counsel in this area as possible and we’re doing a lot of diagnosing. We've read your e-mails and heard many of your critiques."

So we have Mickey Connolly issuing what many perceive as an edict of censorship while Dave Harvey makes a public confession that SGM has made "plenty of mistakes".   Talk about confusion! It's important to point out that Dave and Mickey both serve on the SGM Board and that both spoke at the SGM Pastors Conference held just last week.  

Not only that, we purportedly have Mark Dever admonishing his congregation NOT to read Brent's documents.  Here is what a commenter who identifies as a member of Capitol Hill Baptist Church wrote on the SGM Survivors blog.

CHBC Member
November 17th, 2011 at 10:45 am

"This is a good, thoughtful post. It’s interesting, but this is exactly what Mark Dever did. He told CHBC members what they ought to think about the situation and discouraged us from reading Brent’s documents because he said they would not be edifying."

Folks, that is called censorship.  Mind control is a very serious matter, and that is what is happening here.  What are these Calvinistas so afraid of?  Yes, these are indeed confusing times for many people involved in the SGM debacle.

We want to share with you a heartbreaking comment from Argo, who has been involved with SGM for fifteen years.  There is a strong possibility that Argo speaks for many SGMers who have been hurt by their hyper-authoritarian leaders over the years.  At least Dave Harvey is finally admitting it.

Argo says:
November 18, 2011 at 12:43 pm

"Well… been listening to the SGM Pastor’s conference sermons, as well as others from Mickey, Jared, et.al.  All I can say is that I’m very discouraged; very sad.  I believe their hearts are very hard right now… no evidence of humility, no sign of remorse, no indication of culpability in any of this.  They are just victims, and the only thing they think they need to learn right now is how to “respond properly” to those bringing unjust accusations.  I can’t believe it.

So, I’m gonna jump on the humility bandwagon and take my own “leave of absence”.  I’m witnessing the spiritual death of a church org that I gave more time and money to than I can count, and I need to grieve.  I need to grieve for their hardness of heart, and also for the fact that in my support for SGM, I’ve been a tertiary supporter of their “authority”, and so that makes me sad.

So, I’m going to take time off from commenting and try to come to terms with the fact that I’ve been listening to hypocrites for the past fifteen years.  They preached humility; there was none.  They preached specific confession of sins; there was none.  They preached no “damage control”; there was more than you find in a governor’s election.  They preached caring for the weak, the sick, the abused; there was none, only disdain and revulsion for the “evil” blogs.  They preached change and promised to examine their hearts; there was only a digging in of heels, excommunication, and a forbidding of “information”.

So, I need to grieve, I need to study, and I need to find out where I can be a part of a community of believers who practice love, forgiveness, and the need for all men and women, pastors or not, to truly humble themselves before Christ, and focus on the primary issues of peace, love, kindness, comfort, and understanding and forgiveness, without the worshiping of a man, or an orthodoxy, or an office.

I’ll keep reading these blogs: you all are brilliant; you all are the remnant.

So take care, God bless, pray for SGM… but their hearts are cold.  So pray even harder for the few that are listening to the Holy Spirit, like Josh, and pray that He would give them strength and courage in this time."

Argo, if you're reading here, we will definitely be keeping you and those who have experienced the same kind of pain in our prayers.

What blows our minds is that in the midst of this confusing rhetoric from SGM leaders (not to mention Mohler, Duncan, Dever, DeYoung, Ortlund, Challies and other Calvinistas), the Ambassadors of Reconciliation are listening and learning about the terrible abuses that have taken place at the hands of SGM leadership.  According to Harvey, at least seventy-five individuals have come forward so far.  Jim over at SGM Refuge has issued a final plea for victims to provide their testimony.  We agree with Jim that this is a crucial time and that those hurt by SGM may never have this opportunity again.  We leave you with the information posted just today at SGM Refuge.

Ambassadors of Reconciliation Timeframe

All of this has been said before, but I wanted to make a final appeal. I believe that we have a once in decades opportunity here to give our input to an outside party in regards to our opinions and experiences with Sovereign Grace Ministries. Although Ted Kober communicates in an extremely gracious manner, (which is too gracious for some, given the topic) he has pulled no punches with SGM thus far. There is no reason to believe that he will not give an honest evaluation in the future, especially after hearing from hundreds of us. I honestly think that without knowing it, this time and season is the reason I started this blog. Please. Please send your feedback regarding SGM to AoR. The window is closing.

You can use the online form here.

You can download to print and mail or email the hard copy (link is on the Refuge site).

Phone interviews may be requested until November 30.

AoR hopes to complete phone interviews by Christmas, and will accept feedback forms (with no request for a phone interview) until the interviews are complete.

AoR hopes to deliver their evaluation report by March, and SGM has promised to publish it. They have kept their promise in this regard thus far, and I have no reason at all to believe that they will not publish the final report.

Please join me in this endeavor.

Feedback can be email to mail@hisaor.org or can be mailed to:

Ambassadors of Reconciliation
P.O. Box 81662
Billings, MT 59108-1662

 

Lydia's Corner:    Ezra 10:1-44    1 Corinthians 6:1-20    Psalm 31:9-18    Proverbs 21:3 

Comments

SGM and Confusion in the Camp — 119 Comments

  1. I’ve had some empathy for the “de-gifted” pastors. Of course, pastors lose their churches all the time; this is not new. But having people remove you from your ministry because they have determined you’re not qualified would be a shock.

    BUT, it is a little confusing – if an SGM church is actually autonomous, then SGM leadership from afar would not be able to remove a pastor.

    Finally, Kudos to SGM for at least providing an opportunity for those who have been hurt to be HEARD. (75 seems like a pretty small number unfortunately.)

  2. Seneca – My understanding is that there were 75 face-to-face interviews conducted during the pastor’s conference last week. There are many more people signed up for telephone interviews and others who are submitting their stories via email or snail mail.

  3. Seneca said:

    “Finally, Kudos to SGM for at least providing an opportunity for those who have been hurt to be HEARD.”

    Seneca,

    FINALLY is definitely the operative word. Had SGM not been shamed into action on the internet, it’s highly likely that none of these interviews would be taking place based on the modus operandi of this organization.

    I should have mentioned what For Freedom said. The interview process just started last week in conjunction with the SGM Pastors Conference. Actually, I am amazed that 75 people had the courage to engage in face-to-face interviews. I’m hoping that many more with contact AOR through the other avenues that are being made available.

    I also have a heart for the pastors who have been de-gifted by the SGM machine. What a travesty!

  4. For Freedom,

    I just visited your blog, and I really appreciate what you wrote on 11/11/11. I will share it here for our readers:

    Why Should I Care

    “My daughter had a good question for me today. She and her boyfriend have been keeping up on the goings on at SGM, including CJ Mahaney’s mind-blowing speech at the Sovereign Grace Ministries Pastor’s Conference the other day. Her bf has been a little bit perplexed about people from outside SGM voicing their concerns and opinions at SGM Refuge and Survivors. “Why should these people, who are not directly involved with SGM care about and get involved these things?” she asked.

    I answered that I think that it’s because we have a God-given concern for justice and truth, and as members of the human race, we care when we see others being abused or when injustices are done to others. We want truth to reign and falsehood to be revealed and denounced. Why do we care about babies being aborted or people being massacred by their governments in other countries? Because we care about people and we care about justice. It’s the same thing with SGM. Even if you’re not a member of an SGM church, you care because you care about people and you especially care about your brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ. We all should care about what happens in other denominations and churches because we are ONE BODY.”

    Yes, this is exactly why Dee and I care so much about the SGM debacle. Those who are being hurt in this “family of churches” are our brothers and sisters in Christ. God has convicted us to speak out, and we cannot be disobedient to Almighty God.

    Blessings to you!

  5. “Why should these people, who are not directly involved with SGM care about and get involved these things?” she asked”

    We should care when people misrepresent our Savior, too.

  6. It’s not over yet. God is on his throne. We won’t see perfect justice in this world, but the Holy Spirit is at work in SGM. Many people have been deceived, and many are having their eyes opened. Along with Argo, I’d like to ask for your prayers for those like Joshua Harris and the pastors who work with him. These people need courage. Joshua is well-named and well-placed. Please also pray for AoR. Here is what they told the pastors at the recent conference:
    Ted Kober speaking at the last day of the Pastors’ Conference:

    At the 1:01:00 mark, Ted Kober nails it:

    “Your most significant challenge is not simply structural. It is not lack of policies. It is not not having a system for grievances. Your most significant challenge is to live as God’s forgiven people. Responding to your trials in a God-pleasing way. Confessing sins. Forgiving as you’ve been forgiven. Seeking to restore others in a spirit of gentleness.”

    Many have been hurt. Many have long-term relationships within the churches. So there’s going to be more hurt if the leaders don’t respond in love and grace, and churches start being torn apart.

  7. Anonymous,

    Amen! Have you read our review of Mahaney’s The Cross Centered Life? My Savior suffered on the cross and is risen from the dead. Hallelujah!

  8. Celeste,

    Thank you for your thoughtful comment and request for prayers for the CLC pastors. We will add it to our prayer list.

    Blessings!

  9. Seneca

    i think i have this story right. Some poor pastor decided to affiliate his church with SGM, believing the hype.This is a church he started and built. SGM came in, after the ink was dry and told him he was “too proud” to be a pastor. Then, they made him step down and be a janitor in his church. They installed one of the SGM “boys”. After working for a year as a janitor, they permanently removed him.
    If I don’t have this story right, someone correct me, please.

    These SGM leaders are #$@*&^$&&$*** Fill in the blanks if this is true.

  10. Deb
    Did you see the paper this AM? “Nude blogger in Egypt shocks both right and left.” So, the critics have it wrong. Bloggers are not some guys dressed in their bathrobes, living in their mother’s basement eating Cheetos. They are really good-looking women blogging in the buff. Think it would increase traffic here? Would this add to our glam reputation?

  11. Eagle:

    Just wrote a long reply and lost it :(…

    Anyway, I so relate to the deja vu feeling regarding these fundamentalist sects and Mormonism. They have become frighteningly similar; patriarchy, authority structure, blind obedience, worship of the family, isolationism, and management / coercion by guilt, shame, and fear.

    If I were one to believe in a bunch of Job-esque spiritual warfare going on behind the scenes, I’d be inclined to believe Satan has a very predictable pattern when pulling Christians away from Jesus.

    Do the QFers and other fundamentalists realize how closely they are coming to resemble the LDS church?

  12. The comment about “mistakes being made” sounds very similar to what the International Churches of Christ said after a top leader in their organization wrote a scathing letter indicting the churches for their current state of affairs.

    The leaders of these churches were willing to say “mistakes were made”, but very few of them were willing to be specific about what mistakes, and even fewer of them seemed willing to change.

    I’ve never been involved with SGM, but they seem to have plenty of parallels with the ICOC.

  13. Tina,

    We’ve never looked into ICOC before. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Maybe we will look into the parallels with SGM.

  14. I encountered some converts to ICOC in the early and mid-1990s and they honestly seemed pretty creepy. One of them told me you have to “bear fruit”, which means you’re not a real disciple of Jesus until you make a disciple of Jesus that makes a disciple of Jesus.

  15. “i think i have this story right. Some poor pastor decided to affiliate his church with SGM, believing the hype.This is a church he started and built. SGM came in, after the ink was dry and told him he was “too proud” to be a pastor. Then, they made him step down and be a janitor in his church. They installed one of the SGM “boys”. After working for a year as a janitor, they permanently removed him.”

    I saw that story, I believe Brent ( who had stepped in as senior pastor) was the hatchet man canning the guy as a pastor 2 weeks after he completed the building program. I’ve never heard that Brent has sought this guy out to ask forgiveness.

    But let us not think this stuff is unique to SGM (though their de-gifting seems pretty unique.)

    BTW, Jonathan Edwards, one of the most upright and righteous men that we would ever know was let go by his church. You should read Edwards biographies. Makes me feel like a worm.

  16. Dee and Seneca,

    Sorry, but I missed this story you are describing. Where can I learn more about it? Please point me in the right direction. I believe it is definitely worth writing a post on this sad saga.

  17. Dee,

    Blogging in the buff? I’ll definitely have to check out that story. Were they male or female?

  18. Deb
    Female-freaked out the Muslims in Egypt. We could have a subtitle to the blog-Nothing but the Naked Truth!

  19. Seneca

    Just remember that you are loved by the Creator and that is enough to lift the head of any man! Or as CS Lewis called us in his Chronicles of Narnia-Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve and that was a term of respect!

  20. WTH
    I love the additions to Scripture. My small group of friends are studying Mark. Last night we discussed all the weird rules the Pharisees made up for the Sabbath.For example, you could not spit on the ground lest it water and seed and cause it to germinate. Lots of people just don’t get grace.

  21. One of them told me you have to “bear fruit”, which means you’re not a real disciple of Jesus until you make a disciple of Jesus that makes a disciple of Jesus.

    This is what Campus Crusade called “Multiplying Ministry”.

    I call it “Christ as Amway Upline.”

    “Gonna jive my way
    To the Top of the Pyramid,
    The Top of the Pyramid;
    Gonna get my name
    On top of that List…”
    — “Top of the Pyramid”, on Dr Demento many years ago

  22. re story about guy who was a pastor then made a janitor:

    I read the story too, I’m pretty sure on the sgm refuge blog, in the comments. Sorry, don’t remember which story was being commented on. A fairly recent one.

  23. Deb:

    I had saved it in my email account. Here it is:

    I just found this site a few weeks ago. Amazing! You guys should have been around 20 years ago when the “friendly fire” wounded and almost took my life. I was a senior pastor in the DC area of a church that willingly submitted to PDI (now SGM) to be an “adopted” church. We got the “short straw” and Brent became our “apostle.”
    At the time I was leading the church and its building program and Brent left me alone to get our building completed (for nearly two years). Two weeks after we dedicated the building in 1989, Brent, Mickey C, and two other leaders I had discipled, met with me in my office and told me I was proud, unteachable, self-centered, contentious, and unqualified to lead the church that I had founded 14 years before.
    I never denied those accusations were from time to time true in my life, but that is not who I was. I had willingly submitted myself to accountability to the brothers, and like any committed Christian was working out my faith with fear and trembling.
    Nevertheless, they gave me two weeks to find a job and hit the road. (That was modified later because my father died inside the two weeks, which gave them a little time to reconsider and have “pity” on me.) Their plan for “restoration” was for me to become the church janitor and handyman at a reduced salary and submit to Mickey as my pastor and continued input from Brent.
    Somehow I hung in there (in a miserable depressed, thought of suicide, state) for nearly a year. One highlight I remember, after being labeled as a “proud” man, Brent stood before my church and told them that the sin of pride was worse than the sin of adultery (I wanted to melt into the floor). Too many other details to share of all the isolation, abuse, “curses” and guilt trips Brent and Mickey laid on me during that time. Countless nightmares of church meetings with Brent and Mickey (and other SGMers) rejecting and ridiculing me; I lost count of the times I woke up screaming and crying for God’s mercy (lasted weekly for more than two years)!
    At first I thought they really loved me and wanted to help me overcome the sins and weaknesses in my life. I willingly submitted to their role as “Holy Spirit” in my live. I made no waves in the local church. I rocked no boats. I willingly submitted to excommunication from a church full of people I had led to the Lord and fathered in the faith. I would soon found out I had been nearly mortally wounded by “friendly fire!”
    Why? Because the apostle, Brent, knew what was best for me and my church. While I was working myself to exhaustion finishing a church building and leading the church, he was slowly and skillfully winning the hearts of Mickey (my assistant pastor at the time) and my other leaders. He adeptly convinced them I was unworthy and unqualified to lead the church and must step down. He made a pronouncement over me one day that I should have NEVER been a pastor (even though I had been ordained 17 years before and had seen the success and blessings of God on my ministry). Brent knew best though and I was thrown away.
    I have too many details to bore all of you with. Suffice it to say, Brent’s exposure of abuse, legalism, and impersonating the Holy Spirit is 20 years too late in coming.
    I suppose some of you think that all the other leaders in SGM were oblivious to his ungodly behavior over all these years. I suppose Mickey never saw these ungodly traits over the last 22 years of interaction. I appealed to every leader in existence 20 years ago and they ALL (except Larry T) turned deaf ears to my plight. If it had not been for Larry and Doris, my wife and I would have surely been spiritually shipwrecked.
    By the way, they used the same “playbook” to get rid of Larry that they used on me. Tell a man of God that he is proud, unteachable, and contentious — then no matter what he does or says in regards to explanation or defense — he fulfills their diagnosis and proves their point. Once diagnosed you can NEVER be good enough again!
    Yes, all the “apostles” including CJ, Steve, Gene, etc. have known for years who the real Brent was and is, and they obviously covered it up and turned a deaf ear to the many complaints. How could that be? Only God knows for sure, but maybe it is because they did not find anything wrong with the way Brent conducted himself. Maybe it was the way they conducted themselves, too. Maybe it was the way they believed God would have them treat people. Maybe they were sincerely trying to love and lead the church according to their interpretation of the Word. Maybe they really believed that they are God’s gift (of the Holy Spirit) to all those under their care.
    I cannot judge their hearts or their motives, but I can judge what they did to me and my family, and MANY others I have known through the years, and what I read they have continued to do to so many of you who write in this blog. They have left many, many precious people dead and dying in the trenches through their misguided and misdirected “friendly fire!”
    May God have mercy on them and those they have wounded! I believe the church would be better off if the whole lot would resign tomorrow and the doors of their “churches” would close for GOOD!
    Yes, I still love the Lord and am walking with Him, but I do walk with a limp.

    Keepinstep… thought provoking questions about WHY I turned everything over to PDI/SGM in 1989. (no short explanation) First, you must understand there was not 20 years of documented abuse and scandals involving the “A” Team. I had been friends with most of the leaders of TAG [“Take and Give” ministries – the forerunner of “Gathering of Believers” and “People of Destiny” (PDI) for more than 10 years.] We loved God and each other and saw a need for renewal in the church with authentic Christianity that promoted committed relationships and accountability with the Lord and one another. We had very similar visions. There was sincere mutual respect for each other and our ministries.
    Within that context, Larry and CJ were highly esteemed and respected in the DC area among the young, up and coming church leaders. They offered a fresh voice of what the church was all about and the need for a “community of believers” built together, not just a big pile of “stones” in the same place. I didn’t even know Brent when I went to Larry and CJ and asked them to consider allowing myself and the church I had founded 12 years before to become a part of PDI. Brent was a relatively new face in the DC area.
    I had thought (because of my lengthy relationship with Larry) that he would be the “apostle” that would work with us. Things would no doubt have turned out very differently, but it was not to be. Brent got the assignment in 1987 and went to work undermining the loyalties of my leaders.
    I had brought Mickey into full-time ministry a few years earlier in 1984 as my assistant pastor. We shared the ministry and were like brothers – before Brent. I was too busy in 1987 through 1989 building our new church facility to notice what was happening behind the scenes. By the time they set me down and told me I “no longer qualified to be their pastor and lead the church,” it was too late – Brent was in control. The men that were my closest friends saw in Brent the new order. I no longer had their ears or hearts. Brent had convinced them I was “unworthy” and they needed a new leader. I think they sincerely thought they were trying to help me and do what was right – thus my handle – “FriendlyFire.” Mickey was tapped and accepted the call of Brent to take over.
    Could I have fought for the church I founded and had led for 14 years? Was I still the spiritual “father” of the church? Did I have a right to stay and pastor my spiritual children? YES, to all of those questions. BUT, I really felt the Lord showed me that if I made a claim to my fatherhood to this church, it would be destroyed and the sheep would be scattered. (the Solomon story about the two women who laid claim to the same baby inspired me to let the “baby” live, even if it were in the possession of an imposter)
    That all probably sounds a little silly and naive now, but it helped me release the church without killing it off. The church went on to be re-indoctrinated in Brent’s brand of Calvinism/Reformedism.
    After all these years and after reading all the junk that has taken place as a result of these misguided “Godplayers,” I sometimes wish I had gone ahead and blown the whole thing up – the lesser of evils.
    I wasn’t “dazzled” by anyone, it was a whole different era, it was the beginning of the sorrows so many of you have shared on. There was no reason to be skeptical or to believe the worst in those days.
    And, YES, – On the Healing Journey – I was the founding pastor of Solid Rock Church and had been close to Benny in Fairfax – BEFORE he got the axe!
    FYI – the impact of my experience with Brent, Mickey, CJ and others, was so devastating I was never able (after 17 years of full-time ministry) to get back into full time ministry or pastoring again. Needless to say it has given me much more time to pastor my wife and family of six children, for which I am grateful.
    In the last few weeks (since discovering this site), I have been thinking new thoughts. Thoughts that make me grateful I got out (even though not by choice) when I did; so my family and I did not have to grow up with the toxic influences so many have endured over the last 20 years. That is a totally different perspective for me.
    To all who have expressed prayers, empathy, and hugs – THANKS – it means much, even after all these years! Who knows, maybe the limp can be healed, too! (sorry for the lack of brevity)

  24. There is unfortunately nothing new under the religious sun. Emotional censorship is a tactic used by frightened men with strong religious egos.

    Reading outside your ‘theological box’ is essential if you want to avoid low level mind control from those who regularly program your mind.

    That’s advice born out of my time in the Shepherding Movement of the 1970/80s.

    Don’t hand over your brain to the men in charge!

  25. Celeste
    Every pastor who contemplates playing footsie with SGM ought to read this.

    Digression alert-JD Geear-are you reading this? Is it women bloggers or male patriarchs who are causing the problems?

    Deb
    This needs to be read by everyone. Feature this as a post?

  26. Dylan

    Well stated. Besides, I would make a lousy janitor and would need to be immediately degifted!

  27. “Two weeks after we dedicated the building in 1989, Brent, Mickey C, and two other leaders I had discipled, met with me in my office and told me I was proud, unteachable, self-centered, contentious, and unqualified to lead the church that I had founded 14 years before.”

    Sorry to hear this person’s story about how they were forces out of the the church they started.

    If the above is true for anyone, it has been proven to be true for Mahaney. Unfortunately with Mahaney being the “top dog” most of the other top leaders in SGM are afraid of Mahaney and won’t do what is needed.

    One thing that I have shared on Survivors and Refuge is that it shows a lot that the pastors of CLC aren’t “white washing” what Mahaney did like the other leaders in SGM. One of the big reasons I see for this difference response is that Mahaney was around the CLC Pastors on a daily basis and thus have seen Mahaney in action. Could it be these CLC Pastors have seen Mahaney show the traits pointed out in the Detwiler documents and thus don’t question them or knew that this is something that really needed be addressed. The other leaders that are defending Mahaney (both in and outside of SGM) I doubt were around Mahaney that much.

    One would think that if Mahaney was a model of servant leadership that the CLC Pastors would be the first to defend Mahaney but we aren’t seeing this happen. It sure appears that the CLC Pastors have seen Mahaney in action and don’t question or “white wash” the allegations like other leaders are doing. It was easier to put on a facade at leadershp events but wasn’t possible for Mahaney to do when around CLC for longer periods of time.

  28. “…Digression alert-JD Geear-are you reading this? Is it women bloggers or male patriarchs who are causing the problems?…”

    May TWW and the women who’ve founded it increase and cause even more problems for these patriarchal tyrants. Does anybody remember the old MGM production of “The Time Machine”, or the remake done in 2002? In the old movie, the time traveler leads by example and causes the Eloi to stand up and fight the Morlocks. In the new one, the time traveler changes the future by using his machine to put an end to Morlock rule.

    Kudos to TWW, even it’s just to free one human being at a time from these brutal and human spirit crushing religious regimes.

  29. Oh dear! When reading people’s stories, let’s all please keep in mind Proverbs 18:17:
    The one who states his case first seems right,
    until the other comes and examines him.
    If you do decide to do a story on this, please would you consider asking Brent, Mickey or Larry for corroboration first. I am only passing along someone’s post on another website, and am wondering about the wisdom of doing that.

  30. Celeste
    We ALWAYS corroborate a story before printing it. This blog would have gone the way of all flesh if we hadn’t done so. And, if such a thing is true, then the world benefits by seeing it exposed. Think of how many pastors and churches can be saved from such a travesty!

  31. Muff
    We are getting used to being called liars by those who spend their time defending their friends over the little guy. We have an interesting story to share with our blog friends. It appears we are now being trash talked from the pulpit. More to come.

  32. Steve240

    I am watching this saga with fascination. The CLC thing has really thrown a monkey wrench to the blanket endorsement of all the GC and T4G boys. May God convict the hearts of all those who have preyed upon the dear, loving people who came to SGM seeking solace and growth and, instead, found a harsh, unloving and condemning leadership.

  33. I’ve been trying to become less confused over this.  I’m only a facebook friend of one person involved, and bought a book by the wife of another, so I can’t corroborate anything.  I could find FriendlyFire’s real name through a simple online search, so someone who wished could corroborate his side.  Where one CANNOT find his name is on the website of the church he founded and gave himself to for 14 years. Similarly, in the ICOC mentioned previously, they no longer mention their founder. Now that the top dog who deposed him has likewise been deposed, they don’t talk about him either. 
       Let me try, just using initials, get this straight. Consider I’m writing a novel and asking, “would this be believable?”.  FF founds SRC. He brings up MC in the faith and makes him his young protege. In a nearby city,  LT and CJ found CLC and later PDI, which would become SGM. They bring BD and JL in as young proteges (amongst others).   FF thinks they’re his friends, and joins in. Instead, BD degifts him, makes him janitor, rustles the mutton, and installs MC as FF’s boss. FF goes away quietly, but now sometimes wishes he’d blown the whole thing up. Eventually CJ degifts LT, JL takes over at SRC, JH becomes CJ’s young protege and eventually boss at CLC, MC degifts BD, who does NOT go away quietly, JH states this may be God’s discipline, and now may leave SGM and take CLC with him, CJ goes away briefly but may well end up at SRC, CJ invites, then disinvites, LT to a reconciliation conference, gives a speech there to say he was wrong to say he was wrong, and to publicly mark divisors like BD, and MC unfriends BD. Last and least, I friend BD, just to be contrary.  Wow! I’m more confused, now that I’ve got it straight.  Except for one thing of which I’m sure:  God is not the God of “the junk that has taken place as the result of these misguided ‘godplayers'”, but of peace.

  34. Thank you Dee and Deb for all you do here. I read here a lot but do not always comment. I just wanted you to know that I am grateful for all you post and how you care for people–you ladies are a great example and I am proud to be a reader here.

  35. Diane
    Thank you. I’m afraid a local mega pastor is quite unhappy with us. We will be writing about it this week. We need all the friends we can get.

  36. Appalled
    They should give you an M Div just for that comment alone! Good night! What a fiasco. BTW, I love the term “rustles the mutton.” I am adding it to my interesting vocabulary words.

  37. Appalled and all –

    That pretty much sums it up (evil sounding at best). I have been following it as well, but from farther afield than the eastern areas. As someone currently in an SGM church, I can say that much is amiss and way too much time and money is being spent on the processes of sorting out the ills. It frustrates me to no end that the simple truths of scripture seem to become null and void, as well as unrecognizable when they come up against celebrity pastors/pride/money/position/earthly namesake. Even Brent, who is now on the receiving end of what he used to dish himself, has not seen fit for any kind of public repentance. Although I believe that exposing the ills was necessary, even he seems unwilling to do himself what he is calling CJ, SGM and their Board members to do. These men are very good at talking the talk, but they seem very unwilling to live what they talk. The only reason I can still stay in the local SGM church that I am in is because we have changed or local polity and the elders don’t seem to be buying into the “system.” So I am willing to stay and be a part locally. We are not giving to SGM, but we haven’t for a while as we have been unable to do that. Another reason to stay is that it is not all about SGM — it is about the “Church.” The people in our body are the “Church.” I am more concerned about them/me /us as a true expression of the Church in our location. I hope to be a part of seeing that happen. If it doesn’t, then leaving is certainly an option. I wouldn’t want to keep inviting and bringing people into a broken system that is not a church that really expresses “Church” — if you know what I mean! It is really frustrating thinking that I have walked with the Lord for 30 years within two separate systems and don’t feel like either one has really worked well in expressing the real “Church.” Maybe I am looking for something “too” perfect, when I will never find it this side of heaven, in a fallen world.

    I do feel it necessary to mention that I was not aware of most of the issues going on in SGM until this past Summer when much was finally exposed. I have also spent much time reading the specific blogs related to SGM and was dumbfounded and saddened by what I was reading. I really had no idea of what others were experiencing in some of the other churches and the amount of practice that was elevated to unbiblical proportions. Neither was I aware of some of the patterns that had been repeated over and over during the years. So, although for some outsiders, it may seem like a no brainer – just leave – for many who have been a part of an SGM church, but not aware of the many and varied issues, it is a very difficult time to say the least. I am doing all I can in my little world for truth and the real “Church” to be displayed as our Lord would want. I am also praying to and trusting in my wonderful Father to bring justice and truth and the real Gospel front and forward in all of our lives. I have no preference of what happens to SGM the organization – that is the Lord’s business. If all want to repent, step aside, lay it down, restructure it as para-church – then great. If not – the Lord will do as He sees fit. Well, the Lord will do as He desires no matter what the entity of SGM does or doesn’t do, won’t He!

    Thanks Dee and Deb for all your hard work and love for the regulars — and not just the celebs!

  38. Appalled,

    Believe it or not, I followed all that and recognized the initials. Talk about confusion in the SGM camp! These guys have had it coming for a long time.

  39. Bridget

    Celebs are a bore. You guys are much more interesting. Besides, celebs only like celebs. One too many mega church Calvinistas are sticking up for the stars at SGM who have inflicted terrible pain on the people. Any pastor who thinks more of the “big boys” and does not mention the pain of the little guy has no business being in the pastor business.

    Do your thing, Bridget. You probably make far more of an impact than some of these self absorbed leader types.

  40. Dee:

    I’m sorry, I don’t know how to say this without sticking the other foot in my mouth too. You ladies seem to have integrity, but I guess with all that’s been happening in the Christian world these days, I have gotten too cynical. Thank you for your commitment to only posting stories you know are factual. I wish I could trust everyone who claims to be a Christian to have the integrity that should accompany that claim.

    Appalled:

    Great post! It would be funny if it weren’t so sad, and true.

  41. Dee –

    Yes. I don’t understand all the lovely words and encouragement for CJ. He actually used what some of these guys said of him as fuel to pretty much retract his earlier confession. What would cause them to stand up for him without knowing what the injured hold against him. By doing that they pretty much tromp yet again on those who have been injured — how is that real pastoring? Well I guess they can all support and pastor their celeb friend and serve cake to the subjects. It stinks that they didn’t counsel him to stay and be judged by those who know him best. I don’t like to attribute motives, but this really has me wondering if this isn’t maybe their reactions because they would like to be supported the same way if they found themselves in a similar situation

  42. I agree– it’s all about the “church” as a real, living body. One quick observation for the “church” and churches:
    Confusion–results from a natural unity (everyone talks the same way) and a natural building up of some thing (to make a name for ourselves) — think of the tower of Babel in Gen. 11.
    Peace–the opposite of confusion–comes along with maintaining the unity of the Spirit (Eph. 4:3) and building up one another in the Spirit (I Cor. 14:26-32).

  43. Celeste
    Cynical is far better than naivete. All Christians are capable of making mistakes and I don’t blame you one bit. It’s funny but even when you corroborate a story, the other side will claim you have it wrong. I was involved in a situation in which the pastors did not know they were being recorded (legal here in our state). One pastor admitted to something. But everyone was told that such a thing never occurred. We even played the recording for them. They sat there blankly saying “no comment.” And to this day, they claim it didn’t occur. So even the frank truth can be ignored. BTW, for anyone reading this who wants to hear the recording, just contact us through TWW.

  44. Bridget
    I have one rule of thumb. I am willing to let anyone have their say. But, when they know lots of people were hurt, and never ONCE mention them when they go after us, I write them off. They are showing un-Christian favoritism and ignoring the “sheep.” They seem to have forgotten that Jesus ran after ONE sheep who went astray.

  45. I know very much how Argo feels… I’m so glad that Mark Dever is my ex-pastor. He has failed…seriously. And the more I learn and hear about his involvement, views and positions in this debacle, the more I learn about who he really is and I’m no longer impressed. But lucky for him, his congregation is chock full of wide-eyed lemmings absent of any real individuality and independent thought, and so they’ll do exactly as he tells them. SMH How sad.

    These SGM pastors are sad, too. They are so calculating. The fact that you have to think so damn hard about how to say sorry and respond “properly” to people who were hurt in the most terrifying of ways in your churches bothers me. A person with a heart of flesh and a compassion inspired byt he God who made them would NEVER need so much “instruction” and “thought” on how to truly apologize and bind up the wounds of the brokenhearted. They are such strategizers and idolaters of the Word, that it stifles them and paralyzes them for moving amongst the people as Christ did. He moved adn lived amongst them, healed them, cared for them, WITH POWER! That power is so evidently lacking in these churches, CHBC included.

    What a bunch of pansy *** men who are stupid as hell, and have to look up Scripture any and every time they want to “deal” with a situation. I dont even know these people who were hurt in SGM, but I have heard their stories, and if I knew where they were, I’d stop what I was doing and go embrace them and love on them with every ounce of my heart.

    When someone is hurting, the last thing that comes to my mind is to look up Scripture on how to comfort them, or how to strategize in helping them. I may think of that later down the road, but in that moment, I want to bear my brother or sister’s burden, so much that my own strength is not enough… and that’s why we pray, “Lord, give me the strength in my weakness to bear this person up as much as I can, and all that I cannot do, please make up for that.”

    I’m not a parent, but when I have my friends kids, or my nieces or nephews, I become that for the moment. And for those of you who have kids, you know when a whine is petty, and you know when your child screams or cries a certain way what that means. There are sometimes when they cry, and you know they want attention and you simply kiss or hug them. There are times when they scream out and you drop whatever is in your hands and run to their aide because you know they are seriously hurt… And there are other times where they are whining because they are simply discontent and you know not to play the game with them. It’s not that hard, and you dont have to have kids to understand that. In the same way, we can sense that about one another.

    These people who have hurt by SGM are like your kid playing out on the lawn when you’re in the house and they have seriously hurt themselves. Their cry is distinctly different from a mere scrape and you drop what you’re doing and go rescue and comfort your child with all that is in you.

    What is apparent is the lack of real love and compassion for others… and nobody needs “God” to tell them or search the Scriptures to figure out how to do that when they have a heart of flesh. All these men are leading thousands of people with whom they cannot help because they have yet to acquire the heart of Christ…

    I’m with Argo… This is VERY sad.

  46. ..and any pastor who feels it necessary to tell his congregation what to read or what not to read should be ignored… He is motivated by fear and not faith. He has an interest to protect and he will do that by feeling his need to control and think for you, rather than allowing you to think for yourself.

    Mark Dever needs a slap in the face 1950s style for saying that ****, adn luckily I’m not there anymore… (Mmmhm…. Don’t act like y’all haven’t seen those movies… ; ) ) I’d be like umm… and Mark, I’mma need you not to tell me what to ***** read or do, or that will tempt me to slap your ***. How’s that for being “tempted?” Some people have all the book sense in the world, but they have no real common sense.

  47. Quote: “Thank you. I’m afraid a local mega pastor is quite unhappy with us. We will be writing about it this week. We need all the friends we can get.”

    I can’t wait to hear who it is. I can guess though.

  48. Dee/Deb: You know you have a friend in me…. (singing “You’ve got a friend in me” from the Toy Story soundtrack) ha!

  49. Ted
    We are waiting for the sermon to be posted so we can quote it exactly. It can take up to a week for these to be posted. Here is the bottom line, if you know of whom we speak. I stand by what I sad. I even like the way that I said it. I think I make a valid theological point but this crowd doesn’t believe women have anything to add to the discussion.

    One thing is for certain, we are being read and it is making an impact. And we have a golden rule over at TWW. Unless “big boys” stop defending one another and themselves and admit that there are many, many people being deeply hurt by some of these churches, then we couldn’t care less about what they have to say. We are NOT dumb sheep. That isn’t even in Scripture. We are deeply loved sheep and our shepherd, Jesus Christ, loves us so much that He will chase after one sheep that has gone astray.

  50. NLR
    Awesome comment-directly from your heart!!
    You have captured the essence of our concern. Far too many pastors heap guilt on the congregation. We don’t give enough, we don’t pray enough, we don’t show enough respect to authority, we are such rotten sinners, we are dumb, stupid, worms, etc.

    We get it. We read the Old Testament. Jesus came to save us because He love us so much. He knows we can’t do it. It’s called grace. We are free in Christ to pursue the life He has for us. Of course we will sin, that is why He did what He did. We pursue Christ with eagerness and He encourages us on the way. I don’t get this dadgummed new way of preaching. So much pain is heaped upon God’s people. Frankly we all get it. We have to live with ourselves. I beat myself up everyday for the imperfect way I live my life. But, in Christ, I find forgiveness and strength. Folks, we need to proclaim freedom to the captives; not add more shackles.

  51. Thanks, Dee… Sorry there are a lot of 4-letter words in my heart too, but jeez! These men are tripe. For all the heaping and hollering they do about manhood, it makes you think that Christian men have no heart… They’re like the Tin Man, except in his own plight, he really wanted a heart. He saw the value in having one. All he wanted was a heart… All these guys want is for us to know how manly man they are… Go figure. Maybe the essence of being a man is to first have a heart…not genitalia and falsely assumed “god-given authority.”

  52. I wish we would all stop playing “church” with wolves… I’m tired of all the chunks missing from my heart and head… I got bite marks that have healed quite ugly.

  53. Dee: I’m afraid a local mega pastor is quite unhappy with us. We will be writing about it this week. We need all the friends we can get.”

    Are his initials SF?

    More “Blisters on the Heart”:

    Dee: “We are deeply loved sheep and our shepherd, Jesus Christ, loves us so much that He will chase after one sheep that has gone astray.”

    Well, that’s not what you want to do if you want your church to grow!

    Megachurch heavyweight, Craig Groeschel, boasted that one of the best ways to “grow” your church is to get rid of unwanted sheep who do not walk in lock-step with the head honcho’s “vision”:

    “You can grow your church by asking people to leave.” ( http://www.churchmarketingsucks.com/2007/07/grow-your-church-by-asking-people-to-leave ).

    Mark Driscoll referred to hurting or questioning sheep as “deadweight” and the church as a “colon” requiring an occasional colon flush:

    “[T]hey were getting to be deadweight. Over the years, I’ve just accepted that if I do not quickly open the back door when God is trying to run people out of our church, I am working against God by keeping sick people in my church so that they can infect others. Indeed, the church is a body, and one of the most important parts is the colon. Like the human body, any church body without a colon is destined for sickness that leads to death.” (Confessions of a Reformission Rev, pg. 131)

  54. About sheep: I’ve been checking into info. about their behavior and all that, since someday (fantasy) I would love to have a couple of acres and be able to have a few more indoor buns + some pet pygmy goats and a sheep or two.

    It turns out that sheep have been given a terrible rep – they are really quite intelligent! I know of one sheep who can turn doorknobs with her teeth and sneak into places she’s not supposed to go; another can – get this – herd horses! (Not joking; I should post the link.) They seem to get along well with other small critters (like pygmy goats) and will adapt to them as part of their “herd.”

    So much for “stupid” sheep!

  55. Anon
    No, but he runs with the crowd. We will write the post and name him as soon as he puts it on his website. ISome family members were in church on Sunday and were taken aback. Trust me, We will name him as soon as we get confirmation. It seems that TWW is now receiving very very close scrutiny. in fact, I predict this will only increase traffic to our blog. One thing pastors must learn is this. Controversy only breeds curiosity. They would be well served to let it drop but who am I to advise them? I am only a blister hearted, gullible woman.

  56. Numo
    Thanks for your comment. I do not believe that God wants us to extend metaphors beyond a limited application. So, if a pastor says “dumb sheep ” and then says “well every shepherd know they are dumb” then he has extended the metaphor. I also happen to know that shepherds will one day slaughter their sheep. So, should we extend that to the metaphor as well? I can see it now. You are dumb sheep and Jesus is planning on making you a part of the feast in heaven except you will be the food. Darn this stuff is stupid!

    However, should you get some sheep, I will drive my Segway over from my tour of DC to visit!

  57. Deb said: “Yes, this is exactly why Dee and I care so much about the SGM debacle. Those who are being hurt in this “family of churches” are our brothers and sisters in Christ. God has convicted us to speak out, and we cannot be disobedient to Almighty God.”

    Speaking as a former PDI/SGM member, thank you for caring.

  58. It would be helpful for pastors to remember that they are undershepherds, and that’s just one picture. They do not escape the metaphor of being Christ’s sheep too, even though they have their own gifting. I honestly think some of the problem comes when pastors get confused about who the flock actually belongs to (it is never a pastor’s right to claim ownership of Christ’s sheep as “my flock”).

    Another, so-sad-it-would-be-funny-if-so-many-people-didn’t-get-hurt-by-it reality is I honestly think some pastors believe they are another species of being altogether. Pastors are shepherds (i.e. human), and all other Christians are actually sheep. So in the same way it would be absurd for the sheep to know more than the human shepherd, it’s absurd for the congregation to know better than the shepherd. In the same way a human is wiser and smarter than sheep, so the pastor must be wiser and smarter than other believers.

    Pastors are also sheep (Christ is their shepherd too, and they are just one more sheep in the flock with all the others). Pastors are also part of the body (Christ is the head). Taking one image and relying on it exclusively brings terrible, terrible distortion.

    Thanks be to God for teachers and pastors who exercise their authority and gifting with an understanding of what it means to be a sheep first, and a humble shepherd second.

  59. My reading is not that pastors are given gifts, but given as gifts. God has given the church some to serve as pastors for the building up of the church. (Note the word serve, implying a servant role.) So it is not inherent that the pastor is above or more gifted that the church. In the same place, the scripture indicates that others are also given to the church for the same purpose, to build up the church. I suppose that janitors are also a gift from God to the church, as would be lawn carers, nursery workers (in my view, the best gifts!), children’s workers, pew sitters, etc., etc.

    Remember that no one part of the church body is sufficient, but all must function together, and all are equally important to the success of the body.

  60. RE: numo on Mon, Nov 21 2011 at 02:10 pm:

    You must have been reading my mail on this one! If I hear one more pastor preach on how dumb the sheep are, I don’t know whether I’ll laugh, cry, barf or cuss. Several years back at a dear friend’s church, I heard a young woman in her last year of seminary deliver a sermon on how helpless the sheep are. It was one of the most moving & gifted sermons I’ve ever heard. It’s really too bad the alpha male control freaks in evangelical Christendumb insist that such a gifted young woman be silenced from the pulpit on account of plumbing received at birth.

  61. NLR said “I wish we would all stop playing “church” with wolves… I’m tired of all the chunks missing from my heart and head… I got bite marks that have healed quite ugly.”

    Dee said “NLR
    The late, great Rich Mullins called them “blisters on his heart.”

    Interesting, I never interpreted the song that way but that Rich would wake up in the middle of the night, his soul would be so hot from fear and he desperately wanted grace. At least in the song he isn’t talking at all about what others had done to him. Unless he said more about it at a concert.

  62. Hi, Bridget2,

    Re: “I have no preference of what happens to SGM the organization – that is the Lord’s business. If all want to repent, step aside, lay it down, restructure it as para-church – then great. If not – the Lord will do as He sees fit. Well, the Lord will do as He desires no matter what the entity of SGM does or doesn’t do, won’t He!”

    So, does that mean we put up, tolerate, and enable the status quo, regardless of how destructive its practices, since the Lord will do as He desires no matter what this or that entity does or doesn’t do?

  63. Dee – last Monday there was a small herd of sheep (14-15) lolloping around on my street, sampling tasty things in neighbors’ yards. (I seemed to be the only person around and called the township cops so that the sheep could be rounded up and sent home…)

    One thing I noticed: there seemed to be 2 “leaders” among the sheep – one that acted *very* in charge, and another one that was able to get it’s hooves in from time to time, in terms of getting others to follow it to yummy bits of lawn.

    And – get this – there appeared to be at least one “watch sheep”/scout on the perimeter of the herd, browsing away but also keeping an eye on potential predators and people who wanted to put an end to their great escape.

    “Dumb” sheep, my *ss!!! They seemed pretty smart to me, albeit easily spooked.

  64. Steve
    If you back these guys up against a wall, they will admit that they, too, are dumb sheep. But, you have to get them to that point. Before you do, however, you will be told that you are a problem and should get out of their church. Unfortunately, the pastorate has become a refuge for men who would have never gotten on in a corporate environment. They would have to actually listen to other people point of view and that is not part of their makeup.

    Secondly, I reject the “dumb sheep” metaphor as expressed as these individuals. Jesus used this as a means to tell us how much He loved us and would take care of us. Some of today’s pastors have taken a turn towards a harshness as practiced by some of the reformers. I think some of them would be very happy to chop of the head of a troublemaker like Calvin did if only the law allowed it.

  65. Elastigirl
    Well, there are some of us who are challenging the status quo. It is always interesting to me how, when we write on particular topics, such a SGM, the assigned SGM watchdogs show up. Ditto for the Driscollites and the Calvary Chapel calvary.
    I think sometimes the Lord allows us to endure idiots in the pulpit because we are idiots for allowing them that position.

  66. Steve –

    In reading your post I was agreeing, mostly, then I got to the last paragraph –

    “Thanks be to God for teachers and pastors who ‘exercise their authority’ and gifting with an understanding of what it means to be a sheep first, and a humble shepherd second.

    You still seem to elevate the humble shepherd above the sheep in your conclusion – – as long as they know what it is like to be a sheep first? Then they can move on to what – a humble shepherd? And I do agree that a truly humble shepherd is much preferred over a lording-over shepherd.

    What does it look like to be a sheep among the sheep with a gifting to function a certain way in the body of sheep, but still be a sheep? Just wondering what you think of this picture?

    Now to the phrase “exercising their authority.” Get ready cause I might scream – THIS PHRASE IS USED WAY TOO MUCH BY TODAYS LEADERS AND I JUST DON’T SEE IT USED VERY OFTEN IN THE WORD EXCEPT IN REFERENCE TO THE AUTHORITY JESUS HAS BEEN GIVEN. I do see this phrase used a few times by Paul but it is accompanied by using the authority given to him for building up and not for destruction – Huh?

    Jesus, on the other hand, told his disciples “. . . if anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all.” And we find this in several gospels. Jesus, of course, wasn’t just saying the words for his disciples to follow his teaching – HE LED BY EXAMPLE.

    I’m sure there are some really good pastors out and about. It just seems like most of the pastor/leaders that I have encountered in the past 30 years have been those that teach more about their “authority and the importance of that authority” and not about their part in the body as a sheeple that functions as say a teacher or administrator or – fill in the blank with the gift they have been given. I also think that their are a lot of gifted people in churches whose gifts aren’t being used because of wrong application of the Word and a top down mentality that leaves gifted people seeking “positions” instead of just “functioning” with/in the gifts God has given them.

    Another thing that seems to be happening with this “top down mentality” is that regular Joe/Mary in the body start thinking that their gift to/in the body should result in a paid position in the “church” instead of just functioning in that gift within the body. Then we end up with “few” people functioning, but they are getting paid, and many not using their God-given gifts.

    So, this is just some food for thought, let’s say a view from the free seats (some will get this).

  67. Elastigirl –

    Nope. That is not what I mean at all. That is not what I am doing personally and that is not the position my particular church is taking. But, it also doesn’t mean that we should immediately pack up and walk out the door as individuals, or as a church, unless of course these particular issues had been known about and were being addressed already for some time without resolve. Individuals and churches should all respond as they see the Lord leading them. I don’t feel that this would include just leaving without first trying to work through difference. If we try to work through issues, then find that we disagree with fundamental truths or that leaders are unrepentant and leading believers astray from the Truth, then we can (in my case would) choose to leave.

  68. Bridget
    I hope it goes better for you than me. A group of us tried but we got blamed for bringing up the issue. The good thing that occurred, however, is that a hurt young man knew he was believed and worth fighting for.

  69. With SGM, there is also the issue of church governance… I know now that I could never go to another church that insisted on dictating from the top down, only one where members of the congregation have a vote and a voice. (This after many, many years of going to “top down” churches, though not any that are affiliated with SGM.)

    Bridget2, I hope that things can be resolved at the church you now attend, but there may well be a point at which you have to pick up and walk out their door for good.

    One thing I feel like I can say about that process: God [i]will[/i] be with you, even when it feels like he’s nowhere to be found…. and when people criticize you/cut off contact with you/shun you/become indifferent/whatever.

  70. Numo –

    That is so funny! When I was responding to Steve I was wondering if you noticed anything in that little flock of sheep you saw last week (yes, I remembered). After I posted and read what you wrote I just had a little chuckle – seems those sheep, though they are ALL sheep, had some functioning going on!

  71. Dee – I figured you’d get it!

    I believe the one young man might be the “one” that Jesus would have supported and comforted.

  72. Bridget2 – I am fascinated by animal intelligence and behavior, so was happy to be able to watch the sheep for a while.

    They have a social structure, among other things… like I said earlier, they are smart, not stupid!

  73. A few specific replies, and then a general comment:

    1. There is a long running discussion about gifts/roles/offices in Ephesians – a discussion I’m not going to enter into. I do however, think that being given as gifts to the church and being given gifts is in no way mutually exclusive. Prophets are gifts to the church precisely because they have the gift of prophecy; teachers are gifts to the church precisely because they have the gift of teaching.

    2. Dee – I also reject the ‘dumb’ sheep idea. I did not use the word ‘dumb’, nor did I imply it. In fact, the only comparison in terms of intelligence I used was some pastors mistakenly thinking they must be smarter than others. Now, that can go two ways: perhaps everyone is ‘dumb’ or everyone is ‘smart’. I did not intend my comment to be taken to mean that the shepherds need to remember they’re dumb too, just like the other sheep.

    3. Bridget2 – sorry for making you want to scream. Allow me to rephrase: “Pastor/shepherds need to remember that their pastoral role/gifting does not make them better than anyone else in Christ’s flock. Pastor/shepherds need to understand themselves as the sheep of his pasture, just like every other believer. In this identity, and with this understanding, they can play the part God has given them to play.” Pastors do not graduate from being sheep – they are always sheep, serving the Lord in the way he has called them. Identity in Christ first, role/gifting second; always one of the flock, part of the body.

    Now, let me make a general comment: I think–and this is entirely my own fault–that my comment was primed to be misconstrued given the context of this blog. Because of context, what perhaps many readers have heard about “authority” is perhaps more accurately “dictatorial/authoritarian”.

    Christ had ultimate authority, and came to serve; authority and service are not mutually exclusive. I agree: way, way too much talk about authority from those who lord it over others and are looking to justify trampling on everyone who doesn’t agree. I agree: there have been way, way too many people who have been condescending and arrogant, shepherds who feed only themselves and abuse the flock. This is not the exercise of proper authority; it is abuse. And in a forum where that is the topic at hand, it is very easy to see how a word like ‘authority’ can take on extremely negative connotations – a context where negative, abusive, heavy-handed dealings are called ‘authority’ and where everyone else is called ‘dumb’ ‘rebellious’ and worse.

    I meant ‘authority’ in a weaker Canadian sense – the kind of authority that fits with congregationalism.

  74. APPALLED: What a mahvelous post. I knew all the initials, the timeline, etc….and I was thinking, hmmm this sounds even more familiar than it ought to, and then the lightbulb came on.

    BINGO. It’s “DALLAS” — rebranded.

    Love the sheep comments. I hate to bust anybody’s bubble about the bucolic spiritual parallels between sheep and us, but thankfully, the shoe does not always fit. I must say, after years of close personal interaction with sheep, that yes, sheep are dumb. Some are dumber than others. They NEED to be shepherded. A sick sheep is a dead sheep — they have little will to live. They’re mean to each other, and though you might think only goats do this, they butt the heck out of each other, especially if they want food that another has. Some of them are terrible mothers. The one thing that real sheep excel in is greed. Pure, unadulterated greed. But I can give them this much: They DO know their shepherd’s voice, and the sound of his truck engine. They know that when some other truck drives up, they’re not going to be fed. I get the analogy about sheep and Christians — but analogies only go so far in the real world. Don’t base your theology on a flock of sheep. Base it on THE SHEPHERD — the one who faithfully shows up to feed the flock, trim their hooves, administer vitamin E to the newborns, dock their tails (dock their tails??? oh yes….) treat them for parasites, shear them, water them, give them shade and shelter, make sure they don’t have magnesium deficiencies and white muscle disease, and separate the ewes from the rams who have only one thing on their minds. And then forget the part about him taking them to to the slaughterhouse and bringing them home in flash-frozen packages!

    Oops — maybe I said too much — after all, it’s time for turkey talk — wanna know how turkeys behave when they’re not posing for a sweet, pastoral painting? No?

    Well — Happy Thanksgiving, anyway. To the Blog Queens — one of my favorite blessings of this year was making your acquaintance, up close and personal. Thank you!

  75. I probably shouldn’t comment anymore about sheep.

    I like them too much.

    http://cleydael.wordpress.com/2006/12/04/sheep-make-great-pets-ask-agnes/

    A lot of people where I live keep rabbits as stock animals. Now, I have a rabbit, but she lives indoors and has a lot of supervised free-run time. she’s very intelligent, plays games (which she generally initiates), likes to jump up and lie on top of me when I’m on the couch, knows many words (even commands like “Jump in the box!”) and spends time doing mystifying (to me) things like carefully stacking paper plates in patterns that seem to satisfy some kind of building/burrowing/nesting instinct.

    I have this sneaking suspicion that sheep are about as “dumb” as rabbits. Check some of Temple Grandin’s writing on herd animals… it might be revelatory.

    OK, editorializing over for now!

  76. One more thought: herd animals are often viewed as “stupid” by default. Yet I’ve known a number who were anything but.

    I realize that farmers who keep stock have a different perspective than I do, and I’m not attaching any blame to my comments here. (At least, it’s not intentional.)

    At the same time, I do want to say that herd animals (which are prey animals) are wired differently than predators – like, say, us humans. That does not equal “stupid,” though I have had to unlearn a lot of things that I thought I knew in order to see that.

    But any truly good horse trainer could tell you as much, and they would be right.

  77. By the way, I mean no character insult to sheep by using the word ‘dumb’. I truly love sheep, and have learned alot from them, though there are times I did not love helping them deliver babies in the middle of the freezing night, or didn’t love waking up to bottle-feed a baby lamb every 4 hours because it’s mother rejected one when she had twins, and I wasn’t thrilled buying and changing diapers on bottle-fed lambs that had to be kept in the house. I could wax about this for paragraphs and bore everybody to death about the nature of man and beast, but I won’t. You can’t make a sheep not be a sheep.

    All we, like sheep, have gone astray, each to our own way. Yes, sheep will wander off. Sometimes they’ll leave the flock and wander off alone and get into trouble. They need a shepherd. We need a shepherd — thank the good Lord, He is ONE, and His name is JESUS!

  78. Nickanme, I hear you.

    but did you check my link, about the pet sheep who knows how to herd horses? (It’s not a joke.)

  79. Hi, Bridget2.

    I’m sorry if I sounded confrontational. I respect the approach you are taking.

    I suppose I’m speaking from experience, where I was heavily involved in a church that turned out to be extremely dysfunctional. Hy husband and I were so “drugged” on the notions of perseverance, of “a chain is only as strong as its weakest link”, in conjunction with the right desire to give God our best (no matter if the experience bulldozed our hearts — God was worthy of the sacrifice of our tattered hearts).

    Since we didn’t sense God leading us in any particular direction, we assumed he intended for us to stay. We stayed years too long. It was psychologically destructive. It has taken me 6 years now to detox and begin to feel a sense of psychological & mental health — not to mention spiritual health.

    I do not believe God required, planned, or wanted any of that to happen. We had not felt free to leave that church — but in actual fact we were absolutely free all, along. And God would have used us & brought about good things NO MATTER WHERE we went to church. Or no church at all. And had we made the move according to what our gut instinct was indicating (instead of exchanging it for rigid spiritual ideals), I would not have lost so many years that twisted me and my husband and our family relationships (& our relationship with God) into a toxic mess.

  80. Elastigirl–

    I feel you. I am sorry that happened. Luckily, I’ve got a spurt of fiestiness in me that just. wont. die… and so I left after 18 months. But that was even way too long. I saw how it began to deteriorate my relationships with family. The relationships that I did have within the church did not survive. It truly behaves like a cult. Once you’re out, you’re out and not many people can handle that you’re not thinking exactly like them.

    I hope that your marriage survived. I can only imagine.

  81. The reference to a video by “agnes” hit my funny bone. The latin word for lamb (as in “Lamb of God”) is “Agnus”.

  82. Hi Elastigirl –

    I wasn’t offended at all by your comments. Actually, it seemed more aimed at concern and provoking me to thoughtfulness.

    I’m sorry that your experience was so difficult and damaging. I hope the Lord is restoring your relationships and bringing you into a deeper relationship with Him. And I think you did mention on a different thread that you are coming out of a dry spell.

    My particular church didn’t seem as deeply under the influence as many of the churches in SGM. Although we weren’t completely free of the paticularities or heavy handedness. Our elders and congregation are looking seriously at our relationship with SGM and how/if that should continue. Out polity has already been restructured with lay elders included and much, much more congregational input from ANYONE wanting to participate. What I find frustrating is the number of people who don’t choose to participate. I really don’t understand that mindset. 🙁

  83. “What I find frustrating is the number of people who don’t choose to participate.”

    I do understand this frustration, from past experience. But let me say this — the church I’ve mentioned was very authoritarian. Some people jokingly described it as “nazi”. There was so much control from the top.

    It was an environment that killed the spirit of participation & volunteerism.

    This was the general pattern: when someone began coming to the church and ended up becoming a member or at least faithful attender, they would be gung ho about getting involved and participating. But they would soon find that all they were allowed to do was to follow orders, to follow step-by-step instructions. Very few people were close enough to the top to be given the freedom to run with something, using their own skills, gifts, creativity, ideas, vision, etc. In the pastor’s own words, we were to get behind his vision, & fulfill his vision. In another pastor’s words, the volunteers simply needed to be policed.

    Before long, all those gung ho newbies learned not to volunteer & not to get involved. It was like being a puppet. But even though we were puppets who were being controlled by the pastors, guess who always took the blame whenever anything wasn’t perfect or there as a misunderstanding or glitch of some kind — us puppets. How convenient for the pastors!

    SO… i don’t know the exact nature of your church, but I would say that the more controlling the aptmosphere the less and less people are inclined to want to get involved. And why should they? Why should anyone be expected to be someone else’s puppet? It’s more than nonenjoyable. It’s insulting.

  84. Bridget2 —

    Re: “What I find frustrating is the number of people who don’t choose to participate.”

    I do understand this frustration, from past experience. But let me say this — the church I’ve mentioned was very authoritarian. Some people jokingly described it as “nazi”. There was so much control from the top.

    It was an environment that killed the spirit of participation & volunteerism.

    This was the general pattern: when someone began coming to the church and ended up becoming a member or at least faithful attender, they would be gung ho about getting involved and participating. But they would soon find that all they were allowed to do was to follow orders, to follow step-by-step instructions. Very few people were close enough to the top to be given the freedom to run with something, using their own skills, gifts, creativity, ideas, vision, etc. In the pastor’s own words, we were to get behind his vision, & fulfill his vision. In another pastor’s words, the volunteers simply needed to be policed.

    Before long, all those gung ho newbies learned not to volunteer & not to get involved. It was like being a puppet. But even though we were puppets who were being controlled by the pastors, guess who always took the blame whenever anything wasn’t perfect or there as a misunderstanding or glitch of some kind — us puppets. How convenient for the pastors!

    SO… i don’t know the exact nature of your church, but I would say that the more controlling the aptmosphere the less and less people are inclined to want to get involved. And why should they? Why should anyone be expected to be someone else’s puppet? It’s more than nonenjoyable. It’s insulting.

  85. Eagle
    We reviewed his book on this blog a couple of years back. We called it False Humility, True Hypocrisy. The pain of SGM was well known even back then. How some of these mega Calvinistas can defend this man who has allowed so much pain under his watch is beyond me.

    I actually asked a mega Neo Calvinist mega dude to look into these accusations about SGM. Naive me-I actually thought he might give a hoot for the people who have been hurt. Know what he said to me? That I was guilty of character assassination. This was about 5 months before Mahaney stepped down. Bet he is first on the bandwagon to rehabilitate so everyone can get back to business as usual.

    So, it is up to women to do what some of these mega-manlies won’t do-defend those who have been harmed. And they have the chutzpah to say women should not be in leadership???

  86. These guys lack heartt, as I said a few days ago, but what’s even worse is that it’s like leaven… it has spread throughout the congregation. They can’t even have true compassion for one another. A friend (and I use that term loosely) is separated from her husband and is going to John Loftness’ church (SGM). So they were voting her out of membership into John’s church. You know what people were concerned about in the members meeting?? Mmhm… who was she going to submit to? If she’s not under the church’s leadership anymore, and she’s not submitting to her husband, then who will she submit to?? Others were concerned about them attending church apart, like shouldn’t she go to the church with him? But these questions are so telling of these authoritarian/paternalistic churches… They’re more concerned about the woman submitting to someone, than they are about her actual well-being. Nobody stopped and considered that it’s very possible that serious details fo their marriage are not public, and that there may be very good reasons she needs to be away from him.

    Her husband (and I use that term loosely as well) is a buttwipe. He plays the game with teh other men in the church, and fakes the talk and the walk, but he’s trash. I had to let loose on him a few weeks ago and curse him slam out because of some shady crap he did to me. Apparently, he has a bad reptuation that I found out about, but people aren’t willing to confront him on it. His wife, in all honesty, has her own set of issues and I see whyt heir marriage didn’t last beyond a year (yeah, it was one of these quick courtship boondoggles), but nevertheless, didn’t warrant his behavior. He’s such a pretender and I knew it from the beginning. But he thinks she should submit to him. THese men are crazy and so misinformed about scripture that it blows my mind.

  87. It’s sad to think how all of these single women are running around that church looking for some douchebag to submit to when they have no idea the true freedom they have in Christ. Religious slavery is as I see it, or rather, indentured servitude. Either way, you’re in bondage when you could really be free.

  88. Kelly Price coudln’t have said it better:

    You’re not my daddy. You’re my man.
    I think it’s time you understand.
    So just make me happy if you can (Oh)
    I’m not your mama, I’m your girl.
    And I am the lady in your world.
    And loving each other’s how we work. (Oh)

    [1st Verse:]
    Trust. Without it there’s no love.
    It’s true no matter what you try.
    Us, there can be no us
    Unless we find the strength to fight.

    [Bridge:]
    I spy, you seek. You watch, I peek. So what are we doin’ with our love? It’s not how it’s posed’ to be.

    [Chorus:]
    You’re not my daddy. You’re my man.
    I think it’s time you understand.
    So just make me happy if you can (Oh)
    I’m not your mama, I’m your girl.
    And I am the lady in your world.
    And loving each other’s how we work. (Oh)

    [2nd Verse:]
    Sure, are we really sure?
    Maybe we should close the door.
    Oh, the storms, we try to stand the storms.
    We’ve been holdin’ on too long.

    [Bridge:]
    I pray, you weep. You cry, I speak. See, what are we doin’ with our love? It’s not how posed’ to be.

    [Chorus:]
    You’re not my daddy. You’re my man.
    I think it’s time you understand.
    So just make me happy if you can (Oh)
    I’m not your mama, I’m your girl.
    And I am the lady in your world.
    And loving each other’s how we work. (Oh)

    [Hook:]
    Ooh, please, come to me with sweet words like when we met. Ooh, screams. Yells & screams. Change the language that we talkin’. I’ll just get to walkin’. Baby, Baby!

    [Chorus x2:]
    You’re not my daddy. You’re my man.
    I think it’s time you understand.
    So just make me happy if you can (Oh)
    I’m not your mama, I’m your girl.
    And I am the lady in your world.
    And loving each other’s how we work. (Oh)

    You’re not my daddy. You’re my man. [2x]
    You’re not my daddy, you’re my…

  89. NLR
    Speaker preach on Sundays. Pastors preach in all aspects of their lives and in the rest of the week. I forget-are you an elder or a Bishop?

  90. NLR
    Let me try to figure this out. Christ is the Head but women need an intercessory? The curtain was torn in the Temple, the priest was no longer necessary to make sacrifices but now we need to set up more priests between 50%+ of the human race and Christ? And these guys condemn Catholicism? We have as many priests, elders, apostles, etc as the Catholics and we think they are theologically deficient?

  91. NLR

    Here is the problem that develops. Man has always struggled with pride. Mankind has a wish to have power, be in control. Some churches set up a new power structure for men who , in some small way, can feel like they now are “in control” of other people. They feel very powerful (Oh look, I have these women reporting to me-the Head). I wish they could see just how foolish they look. They are just admirals in rowboats.

  92. To Dee- re comment at 12:06,

    “I actually asked a mega Neo Calvinist mega dude to look into these accusations about SGM. Naive me-I actually thought he might give a hoot for the people who have been hurt. Know what he said to me? That I was guilty of character assassination. This was about 5 months before Mahaney stepped down. Bet he is first on the bandwagon to rehabilitate so everyone can get back to business as usual.”

    Remember the “hoot” I received when I commented at Challies site?

    “This is not the place for that” and “That’s all I have to say about that.” Shut down.

    Challies also linked to this article the other day:

    http://timmybrister.com/2011/11/19/a-word-to-internet-busybodies-and-wiki-leak-christianity/

    Internet busybodies? The author has not addressed my questions in the comment I left there. Read the article, esp. the first paragraph. “Expose” and “hold accountable” are placed in quotes-is that to help us dumb/smart sheep see that that is something questionable? Then basically says we can’t help but believe criticisms–we are prone to believe things written in a critical nature about other people… because it is something we like to do. We are “entertaining” it. And–what we (internet busybodies)call a pursuit of the truth gives us cause to be uncharitable and unchristian.

    Just like you said, character assassination. And the frosting on this cake was the last sentence of his 2nd paragraph where the author judges the heart motives of the internet busybodies. wow.

  93. MRR Dee,
    Elder NLR is an elder. Not bishop. Bishop would sound too much like the hierarchichal Catholics use to lord it over people in a power structure.
    Your humble apostle, Appalled

  94. Appalled got it right… I am an elder. ; )

    Does that mean I get to live in a nice house next to yours, pastor? (insert sarcasm)

  95. Diane said, in her yet unanswered comment on the Brister site, ” I think believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit are able to read without declaring a guilty sentence upon someone.” Applause emoticon goes here. Do some Christians think the Holy Spirit died awhile back, I wonder?
    I didn’t even consider “exposing” the Challies blog here until my and Diane’s comments were deleted over there, and my spirit was moved (by His Spirit, I believe) to see that deleting scripture and “this is not the place for that” are “fruitless works of darkness” which a certain real apostle COMMANDED us to expose.

  96. NLR

    Well, the Gospels seem to imply that “if a man ask you for your cloak, you should give him your tunic as well.” Have you asked about an abode trade?

  97. Appalled
    We are more than happy to print comments that other sites, especially Calvinista sites or rich mega pastors sites, decline.

  98. Dee and NLR
    No one wants to be a sub-apostle anymore. Head apostle sounds good, but at COTWW, we believe superlative apostle is the more biblical gospel terminology.
    BTW, I do believe apostles (small a, not successors of the 12, but of Andronicas and Junia, Priscilla and Aquila, etc.) ARE STILL FOR TODAY. We usually call them Missionaries. I could preach on the way Greek-based and Latin-based terms morph and are selectively used instead of translations (like sent-out ones), but must get about some remodeling business (WARNING!! Don’t do it!) Happy T-day everyone!
    David

  99. Brister’s idols are being smashed and he does not like it. Knew him from SBTS a few years back. he is one who blindly follow his founder/NC idols. No surprise here.

  100. Elastigirl –

    The “participation” I was referring to was in regards to the discussions and concerns about SGM and how that affects our local church, not about people serving or volunteering. It does seem like many in our local church don’t know about and/or understand the relationship. We have many younger couples who may just not be aware or concerned. It seems more that more of the middle age and longer attending have more concerns. My prayer is that God’s will be done as we walk through the process together. Maybe others will be blessed by the efforts of a few. But my desire is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is what is expressed and taught at our local church.

    I understand what you said about your experience and how the authoritarian structure just squashes the heart of the people. It is very unfortunate. I’m sorry that it was so difficult for you and your family. I hope you have found a place to worship and fellowship and that you are finding grace and peace in knowing Jesus Christ.

  101. Thanks, Bridget2, for your kind words. Things are kind of golden these days for us. (except for this morning)

    I think the ability to see things from more angles comes with experience of living life (which can include #s of years). Kind of like how recent college grads tend to be idealistic, having all the best answers and approaches — and then surprises of disappointment & pain chisel that away.

    During our years at 1st Church of Dysfunction, I wish I had taken seriously the words of concern & alarm that a few people quite a bit older than I had expressed –would have spared us from years of after-the-fact twisted-up-ness to work through. I remember one such older person saying, “It’s not worth it — church [or this church] is not worth years and thousands of dollars of counseling to undo what is being done.”

    I keep monologuing here — sorry.

    I hope for a good result as things evolve in your church while all are adjusting to this weird stimuli.

  102. Elastigirl

    You will probably love the video I am putting up today. There are quite a few people who hang out here, including me, who have been to the 1st Church of Perpetual Dysfunction.