John Piper, Al Mohler and Others Respond to 9/11 and Other Disasters

God, who foresaw your tribulation, has specially armed you to go through it, not without pain but without stain. CS Lewis
 

Normandy 

 

I had been planning to do a followup to Eagle's post on Friday. In the meantime, Tom Rich, the intrepid editor of FBC Jax Watchdog, posted a most excellent article this weekend on 9/11 responses. Now granted, he quoted TWW, and that, in itself, makes it a superb article. However, besides Anne Graham Lotz, he also quotes Jerry Falwell and Mac Brunson.
 

Jerry Falwell

Jerry Falwell said the following, for which he later apologized.

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'"

Mac Brunson (FBC Jacksonville pastor)

 In 2008, Brunson claimed, hold onto your knickers, that the United States was hit by terrorists and then, by hurricane Katrina, because Americans did not repent after the Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky affair! Brunson then actually speaks in the first person for God!

“We end up in an oil crisis where families can't afford to put $4 a gallon gas in their cars and now in the past week we've had the largest drop on the Wall Street in its 112 year history…. …You think God hadn't been actively doing something? God says 'I've been active all this time. I've been active putting into place all these things. I've been actively seeing how high I can get gasoline for you Americans. I've been actively seeing how I can cause the economy to crash, because if you will not turn to me in my blessings on you, I will take them away, as Hosea took away the blessings of Gomer. And nobody, the bible says, will be deliver you out of My hands."
 

 

Media Matters  (yes, yes I know) reports on statements by three other famous Christians. Link

Chuck Colson

“On the September 12 broadcast of his BreakPoint radio program, former Nixon special counsel-turned-Christian radio commentator Charles Colson speculated that God allowed Hurricane Katrina as a reminder to the United States of the importance of winning the "war on terror":

(Colson speaking) ‘ [O]ne lesson I learned from Katrina is that we had better win the war on terror and resolve to prevent another 9-11. Katrina exposed how easy it would be to take a city out.
Katrina gave us a preview of what America would look like if we fail to fight the war on terror. "Did God have anything to do with Katrina?," people ask. My answer is, he allowed it and perhaps he allowed it to get our attention so that we don't delude ourselves into thinking that all we have to do is put things back the way they were and life will be normal again.’”

Hal Lindsey

In the same media Matters article, Hal Lindsey is quoted. I was surprised to find out that he was still around. He is the author of The Late Great Planet Earth which upon it's publication in 1969, started the End Times frenzy.

In keeping with his “Jesus is coming any moment" vein, he stated that the "judgment of America has begun.” Apparently, God is going to take out America in the near future.

“It seems clear that the prophetic times I have been expecting for decades have finally arrived. And even worse, it appears that the judgment of America has begun. I warn continually that the last days lineup of world powers does not include anything resembling the United States of America. Instead, a revived Roman Empire in Europe is to rule the West, and then the world.”

Pat Robertson

The Media Matters article reports that Pat Robertson linked Hurricane Katrina and terrorist attacks to legalized abortion.

“We have killed over 40 million unborn babies in America. I was reading, yesterday, a book that was very interesting about what God has to say in the Old Testament about those who shed innocent blood. And he used the term that those who do this, "the land will vomit you out." That — you look at your — you look at the book of Leviticus and see what it says there. And this author of this said, "well 'vomit out' means you are not able to defend yourself." But have we found we are unable somehow to defend ourselves against some of the attacks that are coming against us, either by terrorists or now by natural disaster? Could they be connected in some way?”
 

 

John Piper

On John Piper's site, Desiring God, Link, we have a Calvinista's view of tragedy, and it is harsh, indeed.

In 2007, John Piper, whose ministry is based in the Minneapolis area, responded to the sudden collapse of the I-35W Mississippi River bridge across the Mississippi River in Minneapolis during rush hour killing 13 people and injuring 145. 

 He quoted from Luke 13:1-5. “People came to Jesus with heart-wrenching news about the slaughter of worshipers by Pilate.Jesus implies that those who brought him this news thought he would say that those who died, deserved to die, and that those who didn’t die did not deserve to die. That is not what he said. He said, everyone deserves to die. And if you and I don’t repent, we too will perish. “
He goes onto say the following:

“The meaning of the collapse of this bridge is that John Piper is a sinner and should repent or forfeit his life forever. That means I should turn from the silly preoccupations of my life and focus my mind’s attention and my heart’s affection on God and embrace Jesus Christ as my only hope for the forgiveness of my sins and for the hope of eternal life. That is God’s message in the collapse of this bridge. That is his most merciful message: there is still time to turn from sin and unbelief and destruction for those of us who live. If we could see the eternal calamity from which he is offering escape.”

“[His daughter] Talitha said, “Maybe he let it fall because he wanted all the people of Minneapolis to fear him.” “Yes, Talitha,” I said, “I am sure that is one of the reasons God let the bridge fall.”

I can only shake my head in astonishment that Piper would say things in such a way that makes it seem as if the collapse of this bridge is all about him. I don't think that is what he wanted to convey but his rather self-centered statement could be easily misunderstood as hubris.

 

I found an excellent response to Piper’s thoughts written by Jeremy Bouma at the Novus Lumen blog here. I highly recommend that our readers examine his entire response. It is definitely worth the read.

“I find it very odd that Piper would think there was some special message for the Twin Cities through Luke 13:1-9. When I read this I thought, “This is what God wants to say to Minneapolis? If Jesus was walking around the twisted metal jutting from the ends of the bridge, wading into the Mississippi around the chunks of concrete, and moving through the throngs of injured THIS is what he would say in the midst of this gut wrenching scene? Are you kidding me?”

Jeremy then quotes from John 11 in which Jesus wept over the death of Lazarus.

“When Jesus encountered the scene of emotional chaos, saw the emotionally fragile state of Mary and felt the lament of Lazarus’ friends over his death, Jesus’ soul was overcome by the moment and in a very authentically human response Jesus cried. He had no words when he stepped into the confusion of the moment. Instead he simply sat with Mary and the Jews and joined in their weeping.”

He also questions Piper’s thoughts that the collapse of the bridge points us to the fact that we are sinners and need to repent. “I believe the story of Job has a similarly wretched encounter with people who wanted to label the reason for Jobs life tragedy. Several “friends” tried to blame Job by claiming he was living in sin and was being punished by God. Job responded by unmasking these idiots for who they were: miserable comforters!”

He effectively drives home his premise with the following. “Why must we preach to Minneapolis in this time? Why can’t we just sit with them in their grief, hold them, cry with them, and listen to their stories? Why must we insist on slapping The Passion all over this and insist that unless the Twin City repents God will keep sending more messages through more collapsing infrastructure until they get the hint that he’s ticked at their screwed-up-ness? “
 

Here are some insightful comments by Al Mohler, who gets it right in this particular instance. Link

“Why would God allow hurricanes? The fully satisfying answer to that question is known to God alone. But we do know this much – every atom and molecule of creation testifies of God’s glory, reveals His power and nature, and stands under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. God is not a divine spectator, watching planet Earth unwind and revolve. Hurricanes are a part of what He has created, along with sunsets, blizzards, waterspouts, and whirlwinds. God remains the sovereign over all His creation.

How should we pray? Well, we must not pray that the storm would avoid us, only to go elsewhere and harm others. I wonder if many Christians are listening to themselves when they pray storms upon others and claim an answer to prayer when the devastation moves elsewhere. This is unworthy of our Lord’s command that we are to love others even as we love ourselves. We must certainly pray for our loved ones, but we must also pray for those we do not know and will never meet on earth.

Perhaps we should pray as Jesus taught us, praying that the Father’s will would be done, that all persons would be spared harm, and that Christians would respond in the aftermath of disaster with a clear Christian witness of care, assistance, and witness. “

 

Finally, in 2005, Dr Philip Ryken, President of Wheaton College and former Senior Minister of Philadelphia’s Tenth Presbyterian Church, addressed the issue of a Christian response to Hurricane Katrina here.

“We respond with indignation, seeing that the poor have suffered even more than the rich. Hurricanes are indiscriminate in their destruction, raining destruction on everyone in their path. Almost no one on the Gulf Coast has gone unscathed. But more of the poor were left behind, in many cases because they did not have a vehicle that could get them out of town, or the money to get a seat on a bus or an airplane. The righteous see the structure of injustice behind the disproportionate suffering of the poor. 

We respond with trust, believing that God is working his purposes out for our nation and our world. But this is not to say that we know what those purposes are. Is Katrina God’s judgment on America, as some have said–his punishment for an unjust war on Iraq? Or is it perhaps his wrath against the casino towns of Mississippi and the wanton depravity of New Orleans, as others are saying? But if that is the reason for all this destruction, then what shall we say about all the other godless cities in this country, including our own? And what shall we say about all the godly people whose lives have also been lost, and all the faithful churches that have been destroyed? These questions are better left to God, who alone has the right to say what justice and what mercy he will show.”

 

Lydia's Corner: 2 Kings 20:1-22:2 Acts 21:18-36 Psalm 150:1-6 Proverbs 18:9-10

Comments

John Piper, Al Mohler and Others Respond to 9/11 and Other Disasters — 170 Comments

  1. You do realize that this is a very OT approach to the national sin of Israel, which was the abuse of the poor, the failure to feed the hungry, injustice in the marketplace and in the court toward the weak, poor and powerless in favor of the strong, rich and powerful. And the penalty was paid by the NATION.

    So, if you want to believe that God is punishing America, why not start with him punishing us for not having programs that feed everyone who is poor or hungry, for helping the weak, for ensuring justice for the weak, the poor and the powerless, for welcoming the alien in the land, and for fixing the injustices of the marketplace, such as abusive mortgages and credit card bankers.

    OH BUT THE MEGA PASTORS GET THEIR SALARIES FROM THE RICH AND POWERFUL. So we focus on the sins of others, not on the sins of the elite, the powerful, and the rich.

    Alternatively, we could get away from this OT thinking and go to Matthew 25, where Jesus said those who have not fed the hungry, taken care of the poor, sided with those in prison, etc., will not go to heaven. OOPS. That still sounds like a bad future for the rich and powerful, and perhaps their pastors.

  2. Piper’s comments are astonishing…

    ““The meaning of the collapse of this bridge is that John Piper is a sinner and should repent or forfeit his life forever. That means I should turn from the silly preoccupations of my life and focus my mind’s attention and my heart’s affection on God and embrace Jesus Christ as my only hope for the forgiveness of my sins and for the hope of eternal life. That is God’s message in the collapse of this bridge. That is his most merciful message: there is still time to turn from sin and unbelief and destruction for those of us who live. If we could see the eternal calamity from which he is offering escape.”

    God didn’t, “Let the bridge collapse,” and Piper has his head up his own (you choose the appropriate body cavity) that he actually opens up his mouth and utters such self-centered twaddle.

    And that is all beside the major point: Jesus has provided the solution to our sin-issues, the flipping bridge in the midwest is doing more to reveal Piper’s ocd sin-snifing than anything about the character of God.

    “[His daughter] Talitha said, “Maybe he let it fall because he wanted all the people of Minneapolis to fear him.” “Yes, Talitha,” I said, “I am sure that is one of the reasons God let the bridge fall.”

    Talitha is the major disturbance in the force as a result of reading this post.

    Imagine being born and indoctrinated into this austere environment.

    Does Piper sit watching Faux news pinpointing the possible sin that matches the natural disaster? Little Talitha is learning how to blame the victim, where is her tender heart and compassion to reach out and minister to those in need which would be an actual Biblical response to suffering as the result of a natural disaster.

    Imagine the cold heartless environment in which a little girl seems more at home with God’s wrath than His love, forgiveness, and provision.

    Think of the father-issues that poor kid is going to have if she ever has the courage to reject her father’s excesses.

    Piper needs to stop running his mouth.

    And these patrists think women should keep silent. Breaking News, Piper, no one could fubar the job any more than you do every time you open your mouth or run your fingers across a keyboard.

  3. Most of the statmnts quoted are pretty much the same nonsense as the previously quotes by Falwell, Brunson, and Lotz.

    I don’t view Colson’s remarks in that same category, though. Seems to me he was not claiming that the event represented God’s judgement, just saying that God would have us learn things from tragedies.

    I also don’t have much of a problem with what Piper said, though I don’t much care for the way he said it. Sounds to me like he was saying, as Jesus said, that we should not think that bad things happen to people because God is judging them, rather we should recognize everyone has the same need to repent, and we should start with our our need for repentance rather than focusing on anyone else’s sin.

  4. I liked the last part of Al Mohler’s comment. It reminds me that these are gifted men, and when they can stop being Calvinista’s and living under the self-imposed weight of their own guilt and forcing it on others for five minutes, they actually can be quite encouraging and loving. This is at least the silver lining in the Calvinista thunderclouds.

  5. Dee, I actually *do* think that Piper is a highly self-centered man… if he were not, then he would have been sitting with those who mourn instead of coming up with such “Job’s comforters”-type “answers” to his church – and his daughter.

    I have this sneaking suspicion that Talitha Piper (and others) may well become the next generation of Frank (formerly “Franky”) Schaeffers – and that’s not meant sarcastically. My hunch is that they, like Schaeffer, will have a lot to talk about, and a lot to re-learn…

    About Colson’s comment: good grief, I sure hope he said something about caring for the poor/stranded/etc. (And about the major disparity between the number of black people in New Orleans who lost their homes, etc. v. the number of white people who experienced the same kind of devastation.) If he did not, well…

    About the bridge: I suspect Jesus would have been helping to dig people out, give them water, see to their medical (etc.) needs – not yelling at them to repent.

  6. “It seems clear that the prophetic times I have been expecting for decades have finally arrived.” — Hal Lindsey

    HAHAHAHA. Oh man, that is rich! I have your Late Great Planet Earth book on my shelf, Hal. You’ve said it’s imminent/any moment when i was in high school.

    Why does anyone listen to him any more?

  7. Junkster wrote: I also don’t have much of a problem with what Piper said, though I don’t much care for the way he said it. Sounds to me like he was saying, as Jesus said, that we should not think that bad things happen to people because God is judging them, rather we should recognize everyone has the same need to repent, and we should start with our our need for repentance rather than focusing on anyone else’s sin.

    Well said.

  8. Arce UNITED STATES on Mon, Sep 12 2011 at 09:47 pm
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    You do realize that this is a very OT approach to the national sin of Israel, which was the abuse of the poor, the failure to feed the hungry, injustice in the marketplace and in the court toward the weak, poor and powerless in favor of the strong, rich and powerful. And the penalty was paid by the NATION.

    So, if you want to believe that God is punishing America, why not start with him punishing us for not having programs that feed everyone who is poor or hungry, for helping the weak, for ensuring justice for the weak, the poor and the powerless, for welcoming the alien in the land, and for fixing the injustices of the marketplace, such as abusive mortgages and credit card bankers.

    OH BUT THE MEGA PASTORS GET THEIR SALARIES FROM THE RICH AND POWERFUL. So we focus on the sins of others, not on the sins of the elite, the powerful, and the rich.

    Alternatively, we could get away from this OT thinking and go to Matthew 25, where Jesus said those who have not fed the hungry, taken care of the poor, sided with those in prison, etc., will not go to heaven. OOPS. That still sounds like a bad future for the rich and powerful, and perhaps their pastors.

  9. Numo

    You are right. There are a number of kids of “famous” Christians who have struggled. I thought Piper did a poor job of communicating God’s role in pain and suffering when he had a chance. He thinks that the world hears him in the same way his adoring Calvinistas hear him.So, he takes a hard line Calvinista posture which does not sit well with those outside the faith who have trouble conceiving of a God who lets a bridge collapse and kill people.

    Such men present a really mad God who is chronically ticked off. Here is the problem. Take Johnathan Edwards. He did much to bring the Gospel to the people. But, the First Great Revival has faded from memory except for some church historians and history professors.

    Guess what remains from that era? Edwards sermon “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” I had to study and comment on that sermon as an unsaved high school student in a high school in Salem Massachusetts filled with nonChristians, including the teachers.

    I was shocked by the sermon as were my buddies and teacher. I couldn’t conceive of a God that was so terrifying. And I rejected what he said outright.

    A couple of years later, I heard about a loving God who wanted a relationship with His creation, whom He enjoyed. THAT is what brought me the faith.

    Edwards was remembered, for better or for worse, for a frightening sermon that demonstrated little of the love of God. I expect the Calvinistas to jump in here and lecture me on the greatness of Edwards. But, the one thing they cannot do is take away my impressions as an unsaved kid listening to this stuff for the first time.

    Piper appears to be cut from the same cloth.He speaks harshly of a “just” God who is waiting to squish us like ants to teach us all a lesson. Will his legacy be like Edwards amongst the heathens?

  10. bridget

    I thought Lindsey was dead- a friend once told me that he had. However, he has been very active in the marriage department. I believe he is on wife #4. Perhaps the others got raptured or were not enraptured with his theology. It appears he has had had some serious personal issues but he is still commenting on the Last Days as a modern day “prophet.”

    From now on, I will check TBN. These unusual sorts always seem to end up there.

  11. All wonderful examples of how a person can be well educated, articulate and still be a freaking moron.

    The people that watch them on TV and donate time, money and energy to these hucksters and bigots should share their fate.

    The way they think reminds me of an old lawyer’s joke..

    “The devil visited a lawyer’s office and made him an offer. “I can arrange some things for you, ” the devil said. “I’ll increase your income five-fold. Your partners will love you; your clients will respect you; you’ll have four months of vacation each year and live to be a hundred years old. All I require in return is that the souls of your wife, your children and your children’s children rot in hell for eternity.”

    The lawyer thought for a moment. “What’s the catch?” he asked.”

  12. So, if you want to believe that God is punishing America, why not start with him punishing us for not having programs that feed everyone who is poor or hungry, for helping the weak, for ensuring justice for the weak, the poor and the powerless, for welcoming the alien in the land, and for fixing the injustices of the marketplace, such as abusive mortgages and credit card bankers.

    It’s just as wrong to imply God might judge America for these things (which He never commanded us as a nation to do) as it is to state that He is judging us for homosexuality (which He has commanded us as indivuduals not to do).

  13. I expect the Calvinistas to jump in here and lecture me on the greatness of Edwards.

    There are Calvinistas who comment here?

    I hope it doesn’t make me a Calvinista to think that “Sinners in the Hands of An Angry God” is an excellent sermon in it’s context. It was used by God as a major part of that first great awakening, in a way that a message of God’s love might not have have reached those people.

    Jude captured well the need to reach people in a variety of ways:

    “Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.”

  14. I’ve never heard Piper preach, I’ve never read any of his books or articles (to my knowledge), and I don’t much care if I ever do. Based on the things I’ve read here and elsewhere, there appears to be much to criticize, and I doubt I’d be a fan.

    But just for some context regarding the remarks he’s being criticized for here, this is the Luke 13 passage that Piper referenced:
    Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

    Was Jesus being insenstive to the tragedy that was being reported to Him? Did He lack love and compassion because He used it as an opportunity to tell people they needed to focus on their own need to repent rather than judge others? Was He wrong to tell people to repent instead of going to lifted rocks off the bodies of those crushed?

    If one of Jesus’ disciples heard Jesus say those words, then went and told his family that he felt that the tragedies in the news of the day were telling him that he personally needed to repent, and that perhaps God was using such tragedies to bring people to the fear of the Lord (which is the beginning of wisdom, according to the Bible), would that man be considered full of hubris, or lacking in compassion?

    Let’s not allow our personal dislike for certain individuals to keep us from hearing God’s message just because of our feelings about the messenger. God speaks through jackasses all the time. If we’re looking for perfection in our brothers and sisters in Christ before we will lsiten to what God might be saying through them, we won’t do much listening to anyone.

  15. Junkster

    Did you not sense the irony in my post? I was not so advocating, just suggesting that the idiocy of the “God is punishing us” crowd is very OT and designed to rake in the bucks in the offering plate.

  16. Dee
    In high school, I had to memorize that sermon (all in the class had to memorize a famous oration) and present it in front of the class. 48 years later, I am still affected by that experience, and not favorably.

  17. …but Junkster, Piper is not telling just his family that. He’s preaching messages like that, consistently. Where do you find in Scripture that doing this is the beginning of all wisdom? Would you please post the verse and context that it was written? I’ve never seen a consistent message in NT Scripture, in regards to tragedies that befell people, that it was because God was telling them something? Certainly, we could see that God planned his wrath towards nations who were unrepentant in the OT, but not in the NT. Did I miss something?

    To answer your question: If said man thought of his need for repentance only during that time, I would say yes, he is full of hubris. I think in the likeness of Christ, said man would be full of compassion, empathy and intercessory prayer for those who are suffering. And moreso, thanking God, humbly, that such a tragedy did not happen in his own family. I dont think that in this example it’s about the dislike for the messenger. As you have seen above, even a statement from Mohler was able to help bring clarity in such situations–and we know how our Blog Queens feel about Uncle Al. I would say that there is a fair amount of objectivity generally present always on this blog. But in comparison, how many messages of compassion and heartbreak have you heard from Piper regarding situations like this? If you ahven’t read his books or heard him speak much, can you really say that you have a good idea of what that measure might be? But the many here who have read most of his books, heard his teachings, can really say that yes, generally and consistently, the man lacks compassion (at least a demonstrated one).

    Just my two cents.

  18. The Calvinistas message themselves poorly because they tend to hang around each other – they visit each other’s churches and have big expensive conferences where their fanboys come to worship. Tim Keller is the exception – not that you’ll never find him at a conference, but he is self-conscious that part of his audience is secular and he wants to speak to them, I believe, out of love.

    The Calvinistas tend to proselytize those within their group. They tend to do a VERY poor job communicating to those outside their constituency. When they do address those outside their constituency they tend to create high barriers to entry through word choice and argument-making – making sure anyone outside their group knows that God is behind the Calvinistas and “look, see the Bible backs us up.” I believe the reason for this is Calvinistas don’t hang around non-Christians very much or read non-Christian material very much. If they do read non-Christian material it’s with an eye toward making a straw man out of it for a sermon illustration. Instead, they should be reading non-Christian material with an eye to UNDERSTANDING where people are coming from, be able to articulate their position KINDLY and EMPATHIZE with it.

    May I please share the following link containing the full text of a sermon delivered by Dr. Keller on the 5-year anniversary of the 9/11 attacks at an interfaith service.

    http://discover.redeemer.com/docs/service_of_remembrance.pdf

    I have listened to Keller’s teaching on how he listens to and speaks to secular people. He goes to great lengths to win a hearing for the gospel.

    As for Jonathan Edwards, you really must understand the context in which his famous (or infamous – depending on how you look at it) sermon was delivered. From what I understand he was dealing with a culture that generally accepted the idea of God’s judgment after death. The community he was preaching to was one that was Christian but had been disregarding the Faith and God’s commands. This sermon is highly offensive and hurtful to us as we imagine it being preached today. I would say the ears of Edwards’ time would have been more accepting. This is, of course, simply my opinion.

    That a minister of the gospel wants to always go right to sin and repentance without empathy is just plain wrong. I believe it goes against Ephesians 4:29 where all our speech is to benefit those who listen and it goes against 1 Thessalonians 5:14 where believers are told to “…encourage the disheartened, help the weak and be patient with everyone.”

    Maybe the response of Job’s friends is one of the finest Christians can imitate:

    “When Job’s three friends…heard about all the troubles that had come upon him, they set out from their homes and met together by agreement to go and sympathize with him and comfort him. When they saw him from a distance, they could hardly recognize him; they began to weep aloud, and they tore their robes and sprinkled dust on their heads. Then they sat on the ground with him for seven days and seven nights. No one said a word to him, because they saw how great his suffering was.” (Job 2:11-13, NIV)

  19. Junkster

    Here is the problem with using Jesus’ message on Luke 13 in this context. “But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

    Jesus’ ministry at this point was to prepare the people for his coming sacrifice. He extended the law in ways the Pharisees had never dreamed possible. (Lust=adultery; anger=murder). Who in this world is not affected by lust or anger? It is impossible not to be. And that is where Jesus was coming from in this statement. It is impossible. What about the statement by Jesus that if one doesn’t care for the poor, he will not go to heaven? Virtually no one can escape that situation-we are all guilty. So, do we all go to hell?

    We are absolutely unable to follow the Law-even more so with the way Jesus extended it. Jesus was making the case that we are so in need of grace because we cannot obey any of the Law in deep fashion. And if most of us were honest, we still struggle with these issues-well, at least I do and I know many others who do.

    Jesus died on the Cross and He is not still really torqued off at us. In Christ, we can look at ourselves and be at peace, knowing that we can’t do it all right, no matter how hard we wish. In fact, it is the wish that we would like to do it right and realize that we can’t that shows we understand.

    I believe that we must rely fully on grace and rejoice that we are saved because we couldn’t and cannot repent hard enough or often enough to be “good.” And that is the message that I believe Piper is missing in his “Piper is a terrible sinner and so is everybody else so repent as bridges fall”message. He is still living in the preCross days.

    And, I purposely included quotes by Mohler and Ryken (a confirmed Calvinist) to show that I am trying to get at the message not at the messenger. I think NLR got it!

  20. Matt

    I agree with you on Edwards sermon. It may have worked for his day, and probably did as the Revival showed. The main reason that I used it is to show how this type of approach does not sell in today’s world. The other thing that concerns me is that the Sermon seems based in what I call preCross theology. That is what Jesus came to solve. Our inability to follow the Law and our need for a solution. And the solution is here. Unfortunately, we all jump on the bandwagon of grace and at the same time run willy nilly back to the Old Testament for a God that visits calamity on His people for not following the Law. We have to make up our mind what we want.

    But, more importantly, I am so glad you wrote today. I, too, like Tim Keller for many, many reasons. But this weekend, I heard from a reliable source that Keller lurches towards dominionism in that he would like to see some the the Old Testament laws applied to our society today. I was startled. I am planning on reviewing an editorial about some current political candidates and their views on dominionism (It is a very fair article which says to stop paining those candidates with such nonsense). I am also reading a book called The Family which conjectures that certain groups in DC have a long history with this movement.

    Thoughts?

    I was about to start looking into this and thought you might know something.

    Also, please feel free to use links and recommend blogs. The more knowledge the better in my book.

  21. Junkster

    I do not think you are a Calvinista. You see both sides. A Calvinista is one who becomes an apologist for certain figures-Edwards, Calvin, Piper, etc and defends them as they would defend Jesus. For some, these guys reach a plateau of human experience that puts them very, very close to the Almighty. Why else would they have Piper autograph their ESV?

  22. Bounded Reality

    i laughed but you better duck. There are a few lawyers who will go for the jugular on that one.

  23. Dee

    Thank you for your response. I would like to read where Tim Keller advocates OT Law for present day. I am very familiar with his ministry, his education and his positions on a number of issues. I would be surprised if this were the case.

    Dominionism gets very weird. At bottom they’re trying to figure out who has authority where (God and His Kingdom or other secular authories). Some of the solutions various groups have come up with have been bizarre to say the least.

    It seems to come up every once in awhile and then goes quiet again for a time. There was a rash of this stuff in the late 90s known as Theonomy.

    Best,
    Matt

  24. I would also like to know where Keller advocates for OT Law. I consider that interesting, considering his most recent writings on how we care for the poor, etc… I’ve only been to Keller’s church a few times and didn’t really glean much–but maybe that was because I was used to listening to Dever, which is akin to sitting in on a doctoral thesis, lol. Everything else can seem pale in comparison, unfortunately. I could be at Keller’s church and would think, blech! This preaching is for babies! Where’s the real food. Many of my co-members would think the same. Taht’s terrible, ain’t it? SMH

  25. NLR

    Thank you for your thoughts. Keller’s approach is distinctive among Reformed Preachers. He has a very developed idea about sanctification and how the Holy Spirit sanctifies us. Keller would say that sanctification is not something that happens primarily through changing what we think – in other words, our problems do not come from a lack of knowledge. Many Christians and even theologians KNOW lots of things about God but don’t act on them.

    Keller’s aim in his preaching is to lift up the beauty of what Jesus Christ has done for us and thereby address the heart, not the mind of the listener. When I say “heart” I’m talking about the center of the personality, another way to say it is the place of desire or ultimate commitment. It’s the place where we have our true love and allegiance.

    Keller works very hard in his preaching to make Jesus Christ beautiful so that the listener, whether Christian or non-Christian, wants what Jesus Christ offers.

    I could go on here but I’ll stop.

    Best,
    Matt

  26. Matt–

    I have found that to be true in his one book, Counterfeit Gods. When I have described it to others, I have said consistently that I think Keller understands our desires, i.e. what we want. But it’s not like he’s blaming us for them. But rather, he wants to show you how great Christ is in comparison, and he sort of tells you the good about your desires, but how they will fail you, and then he paints what Christ has done. It sorta rearranges your heart in a way that’s therapeutic and very helpful.

    I was encouraged when I read his book. I felt like he understood why I want what I want, and didn’t really blame me for it. But then helped me to put those things in perspective and bringing Christ back center. I felt his approach was very compassionate. I liiked that about him.

  27. Whoever made the comment (yeah, I could scroll up, but lazy blogger here)about these Calvanista dudes not hanging out with non-Christians and preaching to their own status quo is quite true in many respects. I’ve seen that time and time again. Speaking with pastors and elders, and other men in leadership was one of the most difficult thing I have encountered in these circles. And let alone other Christians in these circles who think all their teachings and understanding of Scripture and practice is correct.

    They, with much ease, make trivial the simple and mundane. Sometimes, I dont want a whole theological perspective on why I don’t like somoene, or why I’ve chosen the career I have, or this or that. Or settling disagreements with others, or etc… Everything had to be heady and otherworldy and sometimes, I just wanted to speak with a simple human with general discernment and a heart of compassion. Sometimes, you just want someone to acknowledge something is difficult but say “you know, I think everything is going to be okay. Don’t fret. Remember how God has saved you in the past, or loved you, or cared for you.” You can’t get that simple beautiful Christianity out of these folks. It’s like drawing blood from a turnip. It’s also funny how they generally can only convey Christ’s compassion by what he did at the cross, but yet, they can’t convey Christ’s compassion that he has in our everday trials and living. Sometimes, it seems like Christ died at the Cross and didn’t rise on the 3rd day. Like his work stopped there. I was often left wondering, where is this living, acting, breathing God/Messiah/Savior/Friend/Wonderful Counselor/Mighty God? If I can at all glean from those experiences, I want to do better and be a better Christian at displaying a Christ with an outstretched active, living, breathing heart towards people. Rob Bell might have gotten the content wrong, but the title was right, Love does win.

  28. @ NLR: thanks! You summed up what I was trying to get across but apparently did not.

    @ Junkster: I have no personal dislike for John Piper, but I remember when that sermon was 1st published on the web – I found out about it from the Internet Monk blog. Michael Spencer was pretty appalled by it, and… so was/am I.

    Where is his concern for those who lost family/loved ones? And, as NLR said, where is there a moment of humility in that entire piece? I sure don’t see either thing happening, and also believe that the message he’s passing on to his daughter is not a good one.

    Very sad, on the whole.

  29. Re. “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God”: I could say a lot, but will refrain, except to agree with Dee on this one.

  30. NLR

    I enjoyed Keller’s book, “Counterfeit Gods” as well. Keller’s strength is his empathy. He focuses much of his energy on understanding and articulating the language of our own hearts.

    Also, the tone of his, Keller’s, approach is more appeal than indictment. This empathetic and contrasting (from typical evangelicalism in general and other Calvinistas in particular) approach is, I think, what has brought many very secular New Yorkers to his church and consequently to Christ.

    I might get hate mail for the following comment, but, I think Jesus would have sounded a lot more like Tim Keller than John Piper. I have not listened to nearly as much of Piper as I have of Keller but what I have heard and read of Piper comes across as shrill, insensitive, harsh and burdensome.

    I don’t doubt Piper loves God but I feel he could do a better job loving his hearers.

  31. Arce

    Thank you for your response. You are, of course, correct in that Job’s friends did him a terrible disservice later in the book. I was giving an example of empathy that some Christians/Preachers could learn from when encountering a sufferer. Sometimes, nothing can be said but a loving presence can be a start.

    Best,
    Matt

  32. Matt–

    True. So true. I got that from Keller–his understanding the language of our hearts. I thought here, finally, is soemone who understands me and I dont feel like an evil, depraved sinner for it. But I am saddened at how Christ is dim in my heart compared to the things I want–the very good things.

    That story reminds me somewhat of David Wilkerson and his time on the streets ministering to inner-city youths/gangs. How a man could attract NYers and fill up the TSC auditorium is interesting. I loved listening to his sermons because he wept with those who were weeping. He understood hardship and just the way that life blows difficult circumstances. I’d listen to his sermons sometimes and just weep. I’d have to cover my mouth just so I could hear the sermons–because they would dig up my heart and pour such a healing balm over it that it was frightening and yet incredible. These Calvanista men, they aren’t of that sort of breed though. They want to walk the halls of religious acadamia and stay in that realm. They aren’t going to the local inner-city groups and urban scenes to seek to understand people and share God’s love with them.

    There is this one guy, I can’t remember his name. But he’s black and Reformed. He wrote a blog post about how Af-Am’s understand that God is Sovereign, but because of our particular struggles that are unique to our own culture, we need to know more about God’s “thereness”, his emminence. I didn’t understand this until a friend expounded and said different cultures need ministering to in sometimes unique ways… For instance, when she went to North Africa to minister to Muslims, she said that Muslims undestood God’s Sovereignty as well, and also undestood God’s holiness. But they have a hard time with shame and understanding how God deals with shame, the aspect of Him that covers our shame, our sin.

    In all the sermons about God’s Sov’ty I never understood God anymore than I already had. I needed to know if God was present in my pain and struggles. Let me say that we all need to know these different aspects of God, and not that one culture always struggles with a different perspective of God, but it’s true that we can find sometimes those distinct struggles from a cultural perspective. Anyways, in this blog post, the guy gave an example. He said in an urban setting, particular Latino or Af-Am where there is poverty and getting ahead isn’t as easy as saying you want to go to college. There are a lot of things stopping you. He said Shanita, whose dad is in jail, whose mom works three jobs, and who has a baby dont need to hear about God’s Sovereignty. She needs to know that God sees her pain, that he is in the midst of her struggle. She needs a God who is there WITH HER, not one standing on the sidelines talking about how Sov he is and everything is in his control or ordained. She’s then wondering why would God ordain her predicament, her situation?

    These men cannot relate to people like that in the urban communities because they wanna talk about sin all the time and depravity, about how Sovereign God is. How is that going to show someone that God loves them who was born and bred in situations and settings that were messed up from the start. Yeah, they need to know that they are sinners, but moreso, they need to know of a compassionate, caring, loving and PRESENT God.

  33. NLR wrote

    He said Shanita, whose dad is in jail, whose mom works three jobs, and who has a baby dont need to hear about God’s Sovereignty. She needs to know that God sees her pain, that he is in the midst of her struggle. She needs a God who is there WITH HER, not one standing on the sidelines talking about how Sov he is and everything is in his control or ordained.

    Amen and amen!!!

  34. Also… where I live now, most all of the “Shanitas” are white.

    Lots of poverty in rural, predominantly white areas, believe me!

  35. NLR

    Amen!

    “God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in trouble.” (Psalm 46:1, NIV)

    Best,
    Matt

  36. @ Eagle:

    re. Edwards’ sermon – it would not surprise me!

    re. Piper and whether anyone killed in the bridge collapse was a member of his church and/or whether anyone at BB lost someone in the disaster: agreed completely!!!

  37. fwiw, I read Piper’s “bios.” of some famous hymn writers (etc.) about 10 years ago and was pretty sickened when he tried to fit William Cowper (well-known English lyricist and poet) into his scheme of things.

    Cowper struggled with mental illness throughout his adult life and attempted suicide more than once. I thought Piper’s gloss on his suffering was appalling, though I really should go back and re-read it in order to make a more informed comment.

  38. “BTW…I thought I read once somewhere that after Jonathan Edwards gave his sermon that many people committed suicide. Has anyone else heard that”

    Read George Marsden’s biography of Edwards. If I remember correctly, there was one definite suicide of a man who cut his throat with a razor and another alledged suicide of a female. So, not “many” but a few. And even then not a sure thing they were both attributed to the Awakening.

    Marsden does a very balanced bio.

  39. “I thought that quip was in the Bible but it might be there like cleanliness is next to godliness.”

    DB,

    FYI–Matt 5:

    45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

    KJV:

    45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjus

  40. Re. Cowper and Piper’s sermons, he’s preached about him more than once:

    http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/biographies/insanity-and-spiritual-songs-in-the-soul-of-a-saint (there’s also a transcript of the sermon)

    http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/online-books/the-hidden-smile-of-god – PDF link at the bottom of the intro. ‘graph.

    Piper seems not to apply *anything* re. a medical understanding of depression, bipolar disorder (and the spectrum of bipolar disorder) etc. to Cowper. To me, that’s depressing in its own right! (As if somehow God had ordained that Cowper was “meant” to suffer so terribly.)

    Lots and lots of theological problems there, and I think they’re pretty much the same things that crop up in the bridge disaster sermon…

  41. “Jesus’ ministry at this point was to prepare the people for his coming sacrifice. He extended the law in ways the Pharisees had never dreamed possible. (Lust=adultery; anger=murder). Who in this world is not affected by lust or anger? It is impossible not to be. And that is where Jesus was coming from in this statement. It is impossible. What about the statement by Jesus that if one doesn’t care for the poor, he will not go to heaven? Virtually no one can escape that situation-we are all guilty. So, do we all go to hell?”

    Dee, I would love to flesh this out more and understand it better. I think Jesus was telling us that our sin begins in our thoughts even before we “act” upon them which was how the law measured sin. It was not the “letter of the law” but the spirit. They had misunderstood the law all along becauwe it was taught as the “letter” and added to.

    If we cannot be better people after being Born Again with the indwelling Holy Spirit, then what is the point of being told to be “new creatures” in Christ? Or to be like Christ?

    “I believe that we must rely fully on grace and rejoice that we are saved because we couldn’t and cannot repent hard enough or often enough to be “good.” And that is the message that I believe Piper is missing in his “Piper is a terrible sinner and so is everybody else so repent as bridges fall”message. He is still living in the preCross days”

    Here is what I do not get about what you are saying. Why point out the sins of any Christian leaders if they cannot “be good” and none of us who are saved can ever hope to be “good” (even better? sinning less?)

    Why expect the leaders to do the right things if this is the case?
    Why would we expect the molester who claims Christ to change? Are you saying the Holy Spirit cannot change hearts for repentance and living a life of sanctification?

    If the Cross, ressurection and indwelling Holy Spirit does not change us for the better, then what is the point? And why are we not accepting the fact that sgm and other pastors are simply looking out for themselves and that is normal behavior because we cannot be good? Why not just extend them grace and act like their behavior is normal?

    Do you see my confusion?

  42. Eagle

    It is worth taking a closer look at Keller. Why? Well, he is miffing off some of the Calvinista crowd. I just did a search of some of the Reformed blogs. The Sola Sisters think he is waaaay off base, so do about 7 more that I read. He has no problem with TE/OE and is not such a rigid complementarian. Anyone who ticks off some of these adherents deserves a second look in my book. he reminds me a bit of David Platt and Francis Chan who irritate some of them as well.

  43. Numo
    There is a new study in the one of the leading journals that there appears to be positive correlation between pregnant women who contracted the flu and schizophrenia, bipolar and depression in said baby in later life. Yet, so many in the church call it sin or blame bad parenting. There is more to this than meets the eye and far too many people want a “sin” solution because it is easy to discard those who struggle. Most people do not have the patience to deal with those who suffer.

  44. Numo–

    I know that’s true for sure. I lived in a pretty nice area in VA Beach, but not too far were many trailer parks laden with poverty and kids who weren’t going to have a chance anywhere in this world but continue in the same fashion as their parents. They aren’t going to those communities either to evangelize and lend a helping hand.

  45. Lin
    Excellent points.

    There is a difference in wanting and striving to change and believing that we can be sin free. I don’t know about you, but I know about my internal struggles. I find that I am able to overcome an issue such as honking my horn and calling the guy who cut me off a derogatory name. However, just as i see that one get better, I realize that I am impatient and curt with a lonely, elderly neighbor who wants to talk on and on about the weather when I am walking the dogs. And then there was a telemarketer who I thought was an important call and I was less than congenial.Then there is the guy in India who can barely speak English when i am trying to figure out a charge placed on my card by an American gas company. The more I conquer, the more I believe there is to conquer.

    My current pastor has a graph of what he calls the Christian life. It looks like the Dow Jones Industrial average (well, until recently). You know, the up and down squiggles. he puts the entire line on a slight trend upward until we are called home. In other words, doing slightly better but still in the war.

    Pete Briscoe once described the Christian life like this. We are walking down a road, we fall face down in the dirt. We then pick ourselves up, brush off the dirt and walk down the road and fall again, down in the dirt. Sometimes we get up fast,other times we get up slow. But the Christian always gets up and continues.

    That is the Christian. One who recognizes his sin, strives to obey, knows she will never be able to do it perfectly and constantly falls, only to begin again. It is the want to that counts. It reminds me of the song by Martina McBride called Anyway that I put on the blog. Sometimes you think you have finally conquered that one area of your life and it comes back. Well, pray for help and continue to proceed ahead, anyway. Or as the Bible says-press on to the goal.

    One of my other pastors once said that we are an end results type of people. God is in the business of our process.

  46. Dee

    Regarding your comments on Keller – he’s been controversial in Reformed circles for some of the things you mention. His particularly heinous sin has been commissioning women of his congregation to serve as deaconesses.

    He’s definitely not a strict complementarian. Get his sermons on Ephesians and find out for yourself. They’re available on the Redeemer website.

    Best,
    Matt

  47. There is a new study in the one of the leading journals that there appears to be positive correlation between pregnant women who contracted the flu and schizophrenia, bipolar and depression in said baby in later life. Yet, so many in the church call it sin or blame bad parenting. There is more to this than meets the eye and far too many people want a “sin” solution because it is easy to discard those who struggle. Most people do not have the patience to deal with those who suffer.

    Dee, I’ve gotta find some info. on the study you mention.

    And your closing sentence is painfully true (pun, if it is one, intended). But it’s equally applicable to people who are not involved in any churches (or other organized religion) at all. Witness Bruno Bettelheim’s condemnation of the mothers of autistic children – he called them “refrigerator mothers” and blamed them for their kids’ autism. (Unfortunately, since the therapeutic community was stuck in ultra-Freudianism for such a long time, Bettelheim’s ideas were received as fact for far too long.)

  48. @ NLR: one of the reasons that a lot of older gospel music speaks to me is this – people testify that God is with them right now. A whole lot. (Which I’m sure you already know, just trying to explain for those who haven’t had much exposure to it.)

    I actually think that a lot of the black community “gets” the “God is with us” aspect of the Gospel better than many white preachers that I’ve heard.

    Now, the one thing that I think is sadly missing from too many sermons (by everyone) is this:

    God isn’t demanding that you live up to some impossible perfectionistic standard. If you truly seek to follow him and be like him, he will do the work in your heart and mind… and you don’t have to freak out about not being good enough right now.

    So very many people have overwhelming issues in their lives – illness, caring for elderly parents and/or handicapped children spring to mind (but of course there are others!). They DON’T need to hear someone ranting at them – even politely – about not being “good enough.”

    I spent years on what seems (now) like a hamster wheel, striving to get somewhere and going nowhere faster and faster, until I was overwhelmed with the speed and dizziness of it all. And I didn’t know how to get off, or even that I could get off if I chose.

    Nobody told me that there was another way.

    (To me, “grace” means something very different than it does to the calvinistas. Ditto for “sovereign”!)

  49. Amen, Numo.

    Sovereignty does not mean that everything that happens happens because God caused it. Sovereignty means that the Sovereign has the authority to exercise power to do what the Sovereign chooses to do.

    Grace does not mean that God makes you do things against your will or choice. The Bible teaches that we have freedom — what some Baptists call soul freedom — the freedom given us by God, when he withholds his power, to choose to love and serve him. Grace is the unmerited love that God has for us that allows us to seek his forgiveness.

  50. HowDee YaAll,

    Edwards sermon: “Sinners in the hands…” huh?

    Ya?

    Sounds like a warn’in ta them there folks in SGM type churches ta me:

    …”Therefore let everyone that profess’ Christ, now awake and fly from the do-do to come. The hand of Almighty God is now undoubtedly hanging-out over a great part of SGM: let everyone fly out of this Sin-Sniff’in-Soul-Trap! Haste and escape for your proverbial spiritual lives, look not behind you, escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed under it’s weight. ” [Genesis 19:17].

    (sad face)

    You can run, you can run, tell ma friend C.J. Mahaney, –(you’ll find um…) he’s a stand’in at da crossroads and I believe his SGM is sink’in down…

    Sopy ;~)

  51. Bridget2 because I’m not the other Bridget I’ve seen post here 🙂

    Numo-

    I’m new here, but very interested in the dialogue and perspectives shared here. I hope I’m not intruding. There’s several things I could comment on, but something you said, Numo, struck me.

    First of all I think it’s great that God is using man to help those with mental illness! Isn’t it a blessing that many with mental illness now have help in the way of medication?! And you’re right about many not wanting to go the long haul with those who are suffering. We probably all need to look at where we stand with that.

    You said, “As if somehow God had ordained that Cowper was “meant” to suffer so terribly.” I perused a bit of Piper’s writing on Cowper. I came away with more of a sense that God was able to reach Cowper and use Cowper’s life in a powerful way through his writing even though he WAS suffering terribly. I didn’t come away with a sense that Piper thought it was because of sin that Cowper was suffering; although our own sin does have consequenses that sometimes leads to suffering. And I believe there was a particular friend (Newton)who came alongside Cowper often, unless I read that wrong.

    IMHO I don’t think anyone enters this life without some suffering, whether because of our own foolishness or because we live in a fallen world that isn’t as God intended it to be. Jesus suffered terribly, and willingly, though it was no fault of his own. But there was a glorious result to that suffering. And by going through that suffering he is now seated at the right hand of God interceding on our behalf. How beautiful that is!

    Someone above referenced Job. Wow, talk about suffering and your friends piling it on. BUT I went and looked at Job today and came away very excited – not because he suffered, but because of what I saw in the whole process. I saw that God allowed Satan to have his way BUT from the beginning God did not allow Satan to take Job’s life. I saw Elihu(I want to be like him!); not technically a “friend” of Job’s, but really moreso a friend than any of them because he pointed Job to God and away from Job’s own self-righteousness. And I saw Job pray a very simple prayer (40:4, 5 and 42:1-6), pray for his friends (who had not been any great help), and the Lord restored Job!

    Well, Numo, all this to say I think we will all suffer in one way or another since we live in this particular moment in time; however, God can and does use the suffering in our lives for his glory. But you are correct about our dealings with those suffering. How we view the suffering (even those who bring additional suffering on themselves) and respond to the suffering is of the utmost importance. Afterall – we were/are all suffering and Christ came for us!

    P.S. Do you think God was with Job all the time – even when Job contended with God? I do – or else Satan would have struck him as well. Wow, hope for me when I’m suffering and don’t get it either!

  52. My ears are itching; somebody quick, preach me a feel-good sermon so I don’t have to think about that old fashioned repentance stuff!

  53. Great post by Bridget2 who said it SOOOoo much better than me.

    “IMHO I don’t think anyone enters this life without some suffering, whether because of our own foolishness or because we live in a fallen world that isn’t as God intended it to be. Jesus suffered terribly, and willingly, though it was no fault of his own. But there was a glorious result to that suffering. And by going through that suffering he is now seated at the right hand of God interceding on our behalf. How beautiful that is!

    Someone above referenced Job. Wow, talk about suffering and your friends piling it on. BUT I went and looked at Job today and came away very excited – not because he suffered, but because of what I saw in the whole process. I saw that God allowed Satan to have his way BUT from the beginning God did not allow Satan to take Job’s life. I saw Elihu(I want to be like him!); not technically a “friend” of Job’s, but really moreso a friend than any of them because he pointed Job to God and away from Job’s own self-righteousness. And I saw Job pray a very simple prayer (40:4, 5 and 42:1-6), pray for his friends (who had not been any great help), and the Lord restored Job!

    Well, Numo, all this to say I think we will all suffer in one way or another since we live in this particular moment in time; however, God can and does use the suffering in our lives for his glory. But you are correct about our dealings with those suffering. How we view the suffering (even those who bring additional suffering on themselves) and respond to the suffering is of the utmost importance. Afterall – we were/are all suffering and Christ came for us!

    P.S. Do you think God was with Job all the time – even when Job contended with God? I do – or else Satan would have struck him as well. Wow, hope for me when I’m suffering and don’t get it either!”

  54. This thread sure has opened a can-o’-crawlers (fishin’ worms)!

    Questions which are not easily addressed via the classical theology of Augustine, Calvin & Luther are always the best ones.

  55. JUnkster

    The best news on the planet is that Jesus saved us and forgave our sins in spite of our itching ears. Life is like that periods of joy- punctuated by trials and dealing with our sin. Repentance should be an ongoing process in our lives so that we don’t have to repent extra hard when terrorists strike. In fact, when bad things happen, it reminds me of the peace that I have because I am forgiven even though I will discover, until the day I die, the need for forgiveness in all aspects of my life. Lord forgive me my sins known and unknown.

  56. dee,

    The Lord has not only forgiven our sins, He has removed our sins are far as the East is from the West. Our sins and iniquities He remembers no more.

    I have to take that by faith, because my sins sure do not look like they have been removed! But if God chooses to remember them no more, than why should I? I would like to forget about my sins as well (and be free from them and the memory of them).

    Lee Anne

  57. Lee Anne

    We are free from our sins but, due to our human condition, we will always remember some of them. Sins wound us and Jesus heals us but we bear the scars. For example, a woman who has had an elective abortion is forgiven if she seeks it. But she will always remember the event. However, positionally, we are holy and Jesus remembers the sins no more. A man who was an alcoholic can use his recovery and forgiveness to walk another through the process. But, at the beginning of every AA meeting, he will stand and say “My name is Bob and I am an alcoholic.”

  58. dee,

    I would prefer if they said, “Hi, my name is Bob, and I have died and my life is hidden with Christ in God.” (Gal 3:3)

    Or, “Hi, my name is Bob, and I am the righteousness of God in Christ.” 2 Cor 5:21

    I do not want my sins to ever identify who I am. My identity is Christ. “I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I that live, but Christ who lives in me.” Gal 2:20

    To Him be the glory!

    Lee Anne

  59. Hi, my name is Muff and I am an alcoholic. I reaped the consequences of my actions and got paid back in spades. There is no need for my idiocy to be placed on the back of that beautiful Rabbi (Yeshua) who the Romans and corrupt religious authorities murdered. It would be a travesty.

  60. Hi Muff,

    Is that who you are? Does alcoholism define you as a person? Are you a mother or father? Are you a husband or a wife? Even if you do not believe in the atonement of Jesus Christ for your sins, your sins still do not need to define you as a person.

    Hi, my name is Lee Anne, and I am a wife and a mother.

    My addictions or bad habits are not who I am.

    Lee Anne

  61. @ DB: many, many thanks!

    I did a search this afternoon and found this article, which includes a direct link to the actual study: http://www.futurity.org/top-stories/flu-funk-may-have-ties-to-depression/

    @ bridget2: I do not mean to minimize the role of suffering and pain in our lives – rather to highlight the fact that Piper takes on Cowper’s li8fe without any apparent understanding (medical, psychological) of the mental illness (and possible physiological causes) of Cowper’s depression and great mental suffering.

    I am really alarmed by the people who, like Piper, seem to speak with great authority but have (at best) a shaky grounding in/understanding of mental, physical and emotional suffering and pain. I have had difficult brushes with some “pastors” who claim that psychiatry and psychology are evil and go so far as to blame demonic oppression for very real physical and psychological illnesses and pain.

    there are many churches that do the same, and I think Piper is looked up to by many of the so-called “leaders” who make heartless proclamations to those who experience chronic physical pain and/or disability; ditto for those whose suffering is more emotional/psychological.

    there are good reasons for looking through a medical lens at depression, anxiety disorder and other psychological problems. Although I don’t believe that medicine is an “exact science,” I do think that any psychiatrist (in other words, M.D.s) worth his/her salt had better do a thorough physical exam and related tests/workup in order to rule out causes that are solely physiological.

    Why do I say that? Because I’ve been helped by a couple of docs who did just that. We probably have much less real knowledge than we think we do… human nature being what it is. That said, there has been tremendous progress in understanding physical illnesses and their relationship to mood and psychological states, as well as steady (if slow) gains in understanding how the brain works – and how its working (or problems) can affect mood.

    You want to know something? I’ve had someone sitting in the “leader’s” chair declare to me that my then-depression could be cleared up in 5 minutes if I would just repent. The thing is… it doesn’t work that way. At all.

    Another “secret”: I have SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder). After being urged to try out a well-made light box, I finally bought one in late 2007. And I feel like a completely different person – a happy one – as a result of just sitting in front of that light every day.

    It seems that what was so carelessly labeled as sin – and demonic oppression – had NOTHING whatsoever to do with either. My body and brain just need more light (of a specific intensity, of specific wavelengths). My guess is that many, many people suffer from SAD and are told that they’re the cause of their problem (from the pulpit and in counseling sessions).

    And that *is* truly sad. (Pun intended, but it’s not an amusing thing to contemplate at all…)

  62. @ Bridget2 again: I do understand (at least, I think I do!) why your impression of Piper’s take on Cowper is different than what i wrote above – and I don’t for one minute intend to minimize what Piper got right. Still, I think he could be a lot more right, if that makes sense. : )

    As for God being with Job the entire time, I’m with you.

    A few years ago, I was reading some info. on Jewish interpretations of the book of Job, and I liked what I saw. Apparently, the “satan” in Job is not equated with the devil/Satan, but is understood literally – as an “adversary” in the divine court – an attorney for the prosecution, pretty much. This comes partly from their understanding of the literary framework of the book as well as the way language is used throughout.

    After I read that, a lot of things about the book of Job snapped into perspective for me. Will post some links here if/when I can dig them up, OK?

  63. Muff,

    Yeshua was much more than a mere Rabbi. He said “Before Abraham was – I AM”. They picked up rocks to stone Him to death for blasphemy because He was calling Himself God.

    Yeshua came to defeat sin and evil. God was not punishing Him in our place. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. (2 Cor 5:19) He was not outside of Christ beating the tar out of Him on the cross. Yeshua laid down His life for us just as a soldier lays down his life for his country.

    There are some very erroneous about what took place on the cross. Do not let those errors distract you from who Yeshua is, nor the truth of the atonement.

    Lee Anne

  64. numo,

    I’m with ya on Job. I think it’s a mistake to try and import our Augustinian Hellenism back onto a Jewish framework and mindset. Please do get those links up, Mishnas or what have you on Job!

    And Dee, we do reap our own consequences and are responsible for our own sins. Turning from them is no guarantor of sheilding from repercussion. Depending on the gravity of the offense (and no, I do not believe all sins are the same) repercussion can range from rueful pondering of past indiscretions to being hounded like Javert hounded Jean Valjean in “Le Miserables”. In my opinion, to say that God demands recompense beyond this is to paint him as cruel and vindictive as Chemosh & Molech of the Caananites.

  65. In his book, When I Don’t Desire God, Piper has a chapter called, “When the Darkness Does Not Lift,” concerning chronic depression. An expanded version of this chapter, as well as the book, are available for free download at his site.

    I suffer from chronic depression. This chapter is one of the best Christian articles on depression that I’ve read. A short sample:

    “How can we help Christians who seem unable to break out of darkness into the light of joy? Yes, I call them Christians, and thus assume that such things happen to genuine believers. It happens because of sin, or because of Satanic assault, or because of distressing circumstances, or because of hereditary or other physical causes.”

    He goes on to write about possible physical causes, and realizes that medication is sometimes necessary. It’s a compassionate and perceptive article, not a scolding one, although he doesn’t leave out the possible role of sin in depression.

    Piper has his problems. His advocacy of Rick Warren is especially puzzling and disturbing to me. And, yes, the article about disasters could have been more sensitively written. But he’s hardly a neo-Pharisee. I doubt that anyone else in recent years has written as often and well about justification by faith alone and the wonder of grace. If he’s a Calvinista because of his fame, he seems to be the most warm-hearted and compassionate one. I’m only going by his writings and videos; I’ve never met him.

    On another subject, has anyone seen Mark Driscoll’s spiffy new site promoting himself as the model family man? Also, in a recent tweet, he said that he was visiting a dying man, and that God told him that this man was one of the elect! Wow! Not only visions of actual violent sex, but knowledge of who are among the elect! He should charge individually for this, and probably will.

  66. I have a medical condition that includes almost 100% chance of depression.

    So far, I have been able to exercise and manage stress but the specter of depression is very real.

    I will take antidepressants if I need them.

    oh, I forgot yesterday, thanks, Lin, for the verse.

  67. Numo,

    Seasonal Affective Disorder is a bit of a misnomer, since people can experience it in any season when there is a long patch of gray sky. After years in San Antonio (average 28 or so sunny days per month, year round), we moved to Cleveland OH for two years. My wife and daughter turned into different people, because, year round, there are more like 26 or 27 gray days per month on the SE side of Cleveland. And the short winter days also contributed. Moved back to San Antonio after two years and wife and daughter experienced a miraculous recovery! SAD is a apt acronym for the disease, but it is not strictly seasonal.

  68. Jeff,

    Thanks for bringing Mark Driscoll’s new website to our attention. Looks like it was launched a few days ago.

    Mark Driscoll’s new website

    I’ll check out that Tweet about Driscoll’s special ability to identify the elect. I guess he is a man of many talents…

  69. HowDee YaAll,

    Dee, Gr8 -03:54 pm post, by the way!
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/09/12/john-piper-al-mohler-and-others-respond-to-911-and-other-disasters/#comment-27480

    We all …thank-you! : (deze are fer you …from all of us!):
    http://www.ftdimg.com/pics/products/F190_330x370.jpg

    Dee: “God is in the business of our process.”

    Yahooooooo!

    Sopy sayz: as long as it’s not” Spam in a can”, I think we’se a’ be Ok!    he,he

    (grin)

    Stargate SG1 Funny scene Jack loses his mind 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2qIx8Jjlfw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    I’ze a’ pray’in too!  …”onward christian solider!” (2Tim 2:3)

    Deb: You’se  got da right stuff, ya hear?

    Bell X-1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOhhADQeHCM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Chuck Yeager Pushing The Limits (The Right Stuff)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Cq7hf4ylvY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    *

     When you first don’t succeed, try, try, try, try…again!

    Sopy ;~)

    ___
    optional: Chuck Yeager Breaks the Sound Barrier — X-1 — 1947; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-mXNPhTdtk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  70. Dee: Your update on Lindsey was “spitting out my coffee” funny!!

    bridget2: What? There’s a Bridget2? That’s awesome; i can’t say i’ve met many over the years! 🙂

  71. A first glance at “pastormark”‘s website gave me a chuckle. In the top banner there are photos of The Driscoll family, the Driscoll marriage partners, the Driscoll leader, and then a frame with the words “Luke’s Gospel: investigating the man who is God”. But no photo of Driscoll! Lol.

    Thank God for that!

  72. Numo

    I really liked your explanation about the seeming lack of knowledge about and the stigma of mental illness in today’s churches. Many churches today act like the church in centuries past who believed that epilepsy was caused by demons! In other words, they were not good Christians. Can you imagine the pain those folks felt??Today, many pastors in knee jerk fashion declare that all mental illness is due to some sort of sin. Once again, insinuating that the person so afflicted is bad Christian.

    In reality, more and more mental illnesses are believed to have some physiological source, etc.Then, some children, who have been abused grow up with serious mental illness and even they are told that they are sinful for not “trusting” God. As if they could have helped themselves as a small child. Chronic abuse over years has consequences to the psyche as well.

    Also, there are stupid pastors who do not think real counseling is necessary for children who have been molested or women who have been abused. They think they can take care of it and they don’t realize how unqualified they are. This is terrible dangerous.

    Seasonal affective disorder is very much helped by a simple device.(it also helps to move to Arizona as well.) Some pastors would just say “Get over it,” once again demonstrating ignorance.

    And here is my secret. I suffered from anxiety in the years of my daughter’s illness and it took me awhile to admit I needed some help. I wish I had done it sooner. Of course, spiritual giants would have no problems with anxiety, now would they?

    I am not done with this subject and plan to return to it within a week.

  73. Lee Anne

    Why don’t you elucidate the errors in thinking about what took place on the cross? I’m curious about your cryptic, yet loaded statement.

  74. Muff

    What an excellent example in Le Miserables. It is one of the most incredible stories of sin, redemption, and punishment out there.

    Here is what I mean by my comments. God has forgiven us outright when we ask for His forgiveness. In this forgiveness we become positionally holy before God. However, the consequences of our sin still remain. Look at the story of Karla Fay Tucker-we wrote about her and you can click on her name. She was involved in some gruesome murders and received the death penalty. She became a true convert and helped many people in prison to find God. She turned her life around and as truly a joy-I admired many things she said. However, she still was put to death as a consequence of her crime. (This is not meant to be a debate on capital punishment). God forgave her, she is with Him, but she still bore the consequence of her action.

    She never tired to hide the seriousness of her crimes. She used her sordid past to help others to find God, and she went to her death, in spite of many who tried to get the death sentence repealed. She could have refused to talk about her past and she could have shied away from helping others on death row. But, she used her past to help others. God does not demand any further recompense from Karla. Our government, however, did.

  75. Jeff
    You beat me to the punch. i found Piper’s statements on mental health thoughtful. I planned to discuss his response next week. I am going through a review of some well-known pastors and statements about mental illness. Did you know that JB Phillips suffered from serious depression for most of his and was hospitalized for it as well? And he wrote a translation of the Bible which showed he well understood it.

    As for the Driscoll site- it is image rehab time. However, he is not a changed man. he merely has a changed site. I believe there will be more controversy to come as evidenced by his tweet-good night! You can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig.

  76. DB
    Thank you for your honesty. I think if more people in the church openly admitted their struggles, the pastors would be forced to deal with it in a different manner.

  77. Sopy

    That was one of my favorite Stargate episodes of all time. I love the character of Jack O’Neil-his ability to laugh in the face of disaster was an endearing quality. In some respects, Christians can have such confidence because we know how the story is going to turn out.

  78. Heather

    Note him decked out in a suit-if that isn’t image rehab, I don’t know what is. i would love to know how much it cost him (or Mars Hill) to get such professional advice and develop the site. i guarantee you that it wasn’t done by some guy with tattoos and piercing from his church.

  79. Hi dee,

    For many years I believed in the Penal Substitution theory, or as some call it – the Cosmic Child Abuse theory. Then several years ago, I started reading some books about other views. There are 2 other views/theories that make much more sense – the Christus Victor view (Gustaf Aulen) and the Blood Covenant view (Malcolm Smith).

    Here is an outstanding article on Christus Victor vs Penal Substitution:

    http://therebelgod.com/cross_intro.shtml

    That articles will explain the errors of Penal Substitution much better than I can. The main error I see is that, God does not need to take out His wrath on His Son and beat the tar out of Christ on the cross, in order to forgive us. The more I studied that theory, the more hideous that theory became. I think Isaiah 53 has been grossly misunderstood.

    Lee Anne

  80. Matt,

    Thanks for sharing the open letter to Mark Driscoll about his 14 year old daughter doling out spiritual advice. It was spot on!

    Why is Driscoll rehabilitating his image? We will likely share our theories soon…

  81. Numo

    Sorry . . . not much time today. Interested in those web sites on Job! I don’t believe, however, that a person needs a theology degree for God to speak to them through his Word.

    I, too, deal with depression. Recently found out I am lacking in the vitamin D area and hoping adjustments help. Also have nephew recently diagnosed with Aspergers (sp). Seven years of worry and ?s for my sister finally answered. So glad she was not involved in any hyper disciplining or it could have been an even worse emotional situation than it is in itself for everyone involved.

    Dee

    Glad to be here. Thanks for the opportunity!

  82. “Why is Driscoll rehabilitating his image? We will likely share our theories soon…”

    Oh, good gracious! Not politics!?

  83. OOOO, some theories to explain the trainwreck we know as Mark Driscoll.

    Lesser known by the name I call Dris coli.

    My pet theory (tongue in cheek, of course,) is that Dris coli has been suffering, of late, due to the way people like Deb and Dee have been exposing his antics to the truth (the Body of Christ has been given an antibiotic that has worked against this pathogen.)

    Dris coli’s response………….an attempt to rescue his public image (the bacterium has acquired antibiotic resistance.)

    Lets see if he has mutated enough to not be efected by the truth or for the Body’s immune system to not recognize it as the little pooey pathogen of which we have been so well informed thanks to the keepers o The Watch.

  84. Lee Anne and other who are frustrated about moderation

    Due to the antics of a certain individual, this blog has had to take measures to control ridiculous comments. We are working on one possible resolution but the good old days will not return. We both have lives outside of blogging and sometimes we may not get to approving things for an extended period of time. LeeAnne. give us more than 45 minutes to approve a comment- I have to walk the dogs and go grocery shopping.

  85. dee,

    There were 2 comments that posted after I submitted mine, and that is why I thought it got stuck. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

    Lee Anne

  86. And research and write blog posts. It is very hard to write when one is being interrupted frequently. Strategies include not allowing an interruption for an hour or two at a time. Then returning the calls and checking the emails, and here, blog comments. We all need to be more patient with the Blog queens as they cope with a concerted attack by people who call themselves Christians and have yet to learn how to behave as one.

  87. Hi Matt,

    That is one of the first books I read on atonement theories, and I still have it. It was very well done with each author given a chance to present his theory and then answer any objections to that theory.

    Out of curiosity, which theory do you lean towards and why? Did you like the Christus Victor view of the atonement?

    Lee Anne

  88. @ Arce: I use my light box all year, but for differing amounts of time. One reason that I have to do that is that I live in a heavily wooded area, so there is much less light getting through during the summer than is the case in spring or fall (once the leaves have started to drop).

    And winter is much more bearable when there’s snow on the ground, since there’s so much reflected light – even at night.

    @ Bridget2: Will post ’em when I find ’em!

    @ Dee: thank you! I’ve thought a lot about these things… and just cannot get over the many attempts I’ve heard at labeling anxiety and depression (and other conditions) as demonic in origin. The same people who said those things in my hearing would likely be condescending – even contemptuous – to snake-handling churches in the Appalachians, and yet, I somehow thing the folks who do the snake-handling might well have more integrity. (Irony fully intended. ;))

  89. Off topic:

    Did you guys notice that SNAP has sued the Pope in the International Criminal Court? Here’s a link to one story: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/abuse-victims-sue-pope-over-church-stance/story-e6frf7jx-1226136393824

    This is one day I am sure the SBC is glad that it is not organized like the Catholic Church and is insulated from lawsuits like this.

    Hope the SBC never changes in that regard. This lawsuit is another example of why it should not.

  90. DB,

    HowDee,

    Thank-you!  for sharing these kind profound thoughts posted elsewhere which well deserve repeating:

    “Martin Luther sparked the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther would have been unlikely to have succeeded in this endeavor without the brilliance of Guttenberg and the printed word which made books (particularly the Bible) accessible to everyone. Armed with the knowledge held within the printed word, concepts such as salvation by the finished work of the cross and the priesthood of believers were received by an eager populace.”

    “We are in the infancy of a second profound revolution that has literally given everyday people access to almost all the knowledge of all of humanity.”

    “…people will be set free when they are brave enough to face the truth.”

    “I’m online, I know how to have my voice heard and there are thousands of others just like me, some are even better than me.” 

    –DB July 12,2011 post @ http://thecurrencyofheaven.blogspot.com/

    Again, thank-you!

    Also:

    –>To the many others who take precious time out of their busy schedules to post here, honor, blessings, faith and a cornucopia (horn of blessing) to each of you…

    What a blessing you are to Le Sopy! (God’s lit’l sparrow)

    La bénédiction de Dieu pour chacun de vous!

    Sopy ;~)

  91. Anonymous

    I fear you already suspect my response to this. If the SBC is not actively seeking to chastise congregations that coddle pedophiles and those who protect them, then I believe that such a lawsuit is justified for the lack of action in caring for those who are defenseless. In that case, they deserve to lose their resources. I’m afraid I am most pigheaded about this issue. So, the SBC can hide the resources behind a wall that says all churches are autonomous in the SBC. I am sure that the Lord of the Universe is really impressed with such cleverness. Too bad such cleverness could not be employed in dealing with this problem within the SBC. God sees the real truth in the lack of action on the part of the leaders who happen to be men. There should be a collective hanging of heads.

    And if the Pope did such a thing and the hierarchy did such a thing, then so be it. I was aware of this suit because of the group called SNAP which has done a yeoman’s work in pointing fingers at churches that ignore abuse.I am on their mailing list.Too bad there is not such a group within the SBC. I would not only endorse it but financially support it.

  92. Numo
    A round of applause-these people who preach sin as the cause for every mental illness are no different than snake handlers.!!

  93. I have anxiety and depression disroder, severe in the past, but well controlled with medication for years (as long as I don’t get stupid and try to get off it).

    My wife has biploar disorder and SAD, somewhat controlled via medication, but periods of mild to moderate depression are still common. Quite some time since she’s had a manic episode, but those kinds of highs aren’t nearly as fun as one might think.

    Our son has ADHD, Aspergers’, and recently has had his own struggles with anxiety and depression.

    People who have never been there just don’t know. Their statements made in ignorance can be quite hurtful.

  94. Lee Anne,
    Interesting what you said about views of the atonement. I was taught about the various views, but they weren’t presented as always mutually exclusive. I tend to think there is some degree of truth in each of the major orthodox views, including penal substitution, but focus on one aspect of the atonment to the exclusion of all others can lead to unbalanced theology in other areas. My two cents.

  95. I just looked at Matt’s link to the book about atonment views. Apparently I have a somewhat Kaleidescopic view and I didn’t even know it. I like the sound of that view — fits in with my appreciation of the song “Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds.”

  96. Junkster

    Welcome to the club. I still remember when a dear church friend of mine decided to go to see a psychiatrist back when we were in a large, close,Christian singles group. I urged him to do so, saying it did not mean he was a “bad” Christian.

    I still remember him telling a group of us that when he walked out of his appointment, there was another friend sitting in the waiting room. They both looked at each other and laughed and my friend said, “I thought I was the only one who was nuts!’

    Upon further investigation, we learned that about 10 friends were seeing this wonderful Christian psychiatrist. All of our friends starting admitting they they, too, received help and there was much laughter and support and relief that the cat was out of the bag. Thankfully, the church was not one of those legalistic places and the pastors were also supportive.

    There is something so Christian in admitting that we are weak and need help. With such admission, is often born deep friendship tempered by love and understanding. If Jesus didn’t come for the weak, then who did He come for?

    Please know that I will add your family to my prayers as I pray for my own, myself, and many others who have the grace to speak boldly about their struggles.

  97. Junkster,

    I will also be keeping you and your family in my prayers. I am glad that the medication you are taking is working so well.

    Blessings.

  98. Junkster – I hear you, more than you might thing.

    I had a hypomanic/rapid cycling moods episode about 20 years ago and it was NOT “fun,” in any way, shape or form.

    At this point, things are well under control for me via the right combo of meds + using my light box for the SAD aspect of things. (Plus a lot of great help from a therapist who specializes in a very effective style of cognitive therapy – it’s different from “straight” cognitive, and definitely more subtle.)

    At any rate, I think the club Dee mentions is VERY big! I kind of miss going to NYC on a regular basis (something I did a lot in the 80s and 90s), as mentioning therapy, etc. is as normal as talking about favorite books or restaurants. I wish the rest of our society would catch up!

  99. “think,” not “thing.”

    Oh my. I wish the “preview” feature was up and running, but I can hang on a while longer. 😉

  100. @ Dee: About preachers who say sin is the cause of mental illness. Well.

    I mean exactly (literally) what I’m saying re. people who have said – in my hearing, and at times, directly to me – that depression (etc.) are demonic in origin. As in, evil spirits (spirits of depression, despair, anxiety and so forth) are the cause. Period.

    I can tell that you haven’t spent too much time with charismatics. 🙂

  101. Junkster wrote

    People who have never been there just don’t know.

    so true. It’s the same with physical pain and disability.

  102. Demonic? If you don’t have the right neurotransmitters at the proper concentration, things don’t work perfectly.

    If there isn’t enough paper in the printer, you go get some more and restock, if you don’t have enough serotonin, it’s de big bad devvle, ?

  103. Hi Junkster,

    One of my favorite books on the atonement presents a kaleidoscopic view. It is called “Recovering the Scandal of the Cross: Atonement in New Testament and Contemporary Contexts” by Mark Green and Joel Baker.

    Here is the Amazon link to the new version:

    http://www.amazon.com/Recovering-Scandal-Cross-Atonement-Contemporary/dp/0830839313

    Even though it is a kaleidoscope view, they do not care at all for the penal substitution model, and they have gotten a lot of grief over that.

    Lee Anne

  104. DB
    Good thoughts. if you don’t have enough insulin, you should blame it on the devil and pray? How about just taking the insulin, for crying out loud?

  105. Dee:

    I understand your response. We share more feelings on this than you many know.

    But it would be suicide for the SBC to adopt any structure that would place the missions contributions that churches give at risk.

    That was the only point that I was driving at. People urging the SBC to do that only need to look at this lawsuit.

    And while I understand your feelings, I do not believe that the missions contributions are at risk based on the current structure. If the SBC changes its mission and structure, the SBC would be subject to such lawsuits.

  106. I think all of the weird theology that comes from the Calvinistas is absolutely proof of demon possession — their theology is clearly crazy, schizoid, and their preaching is mostly manic!

    So they must be demon possessed.

    Does not the Bible teach that Jesus died to set us free from the law and its consequences? Any contradiction must come from somewhere else, why not demonic spirits!!!!

    All of that is, of course, inverted dimple.

  107. Inverted dimple — a dimple that sticks out, due to pressure from the central organ of the human mouth.

  108. Junkster:

    I feel awkward commenting on your comment because of the private nature of it and such.

    But let me say that I agree with what you say. Those issues are really difficult to deal with, and I applaud you and your wife for continuing the struggle.

    One of my good friends who is in our church has been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia since he was 19. I know it is different from what you are dealing with. But it does have some shared commonalities. It has been a struggle for him and his wife. He has really bad episodes whenever they “adjust” his meds. It’s been a hard 31 years.

    But when I look at our congregation and see him there, it says so many things to me about him, the Lord, our calling etc. I feel so blessed to be his friend. And I think that he is one of the most sincere and greatest Christians that I know.

    I bet that there are a lot of people who look at you in that way. I have been blessed very much by our interactions. I wish you the best, and as my pastor says to people, “Keep showing up and do the next right thing.”

  109. Thanks all, for the offers of prayer and words of encouragement. I’m generally open about the emotional/mental health struggles my family and I have been through, although I don’t often bring it up. But that isn’t because I consider any of it secret or too private. We lost any feelings of stigma or awkwardness a long time ago, though we recognize some others haven’t and these topics can make them uncomfortable. I mostly just don’t dwell on it, because, as Lee Anne has reminded us in her comments, our identity isn’t defined by our problems. We have far more to be thankful for and to rejoice over than we have troubles.

    (He said confidently, with Effexor XR doing its job.) 🙂

  110. To emphasize a theme hinted at here(Job and the accuser). I think studying Hebraic thought is of much value ( scratch that, of VITAL importance). I find sustenance in simply seeing Yeshua/Jesus as Rabbi;albeit an exalted one. His “I AM” statement in John is in a different grammatical category than YHVH’s “IAM” statement in Exodus. In John, Jesus simply emphasized the fact that his very existence was part of Gods’ plan, way before “Abraham was”. And yes, boy, have we missed the boat on Isaiah 53 for ages! And we wonder why Jews don’t simply read the NIV translation of the chapter and convert…

    Enough with all the Constatinian-Hellenistic angst already. Do you know St. Augustine was a terrified lump of pathos on his deathbed ? Even he STILL wasn’t certain if God would receive him with open arms !

  111. Very interesting discussion going on here. I am late getting back to comment but wanted to respond to a comment because this is something I really struggle with concerning what is taught about Christianity, salvation, sanctification out there.

    “There is a difference in wanting and striving to change and believing that we can be sin free. I don’t know about you, but I know about my internal struggles.”

    If we could move past the false dichotomy of “sinless perfection/practicing sin, it would really help us be able to delve into this subject. Too often we get stuck in declaring the santification process is about “sinless perfection” when it isn’t. It tends to shut down any thinking about what it means to be Born again, a new creature in Christ….obedient to Christ. And there are a ton of passages in the NT telling us what to do and not to do. It is not legalism, it is obedience….the one anothers…the law of love, sort of thing.

    I am not really aware of anyone who would claim we could ever be sin free. For one thing, we live in corrupted bodies. The very ground is “cursed” and that is a result of sin. Not to mention we fight our sinful thoughts, too!

    “My current pastor has a graph of what he calls the Christian life. It looks like the Dow Jones Industrial average (well, until recently). You know, the up and down squiggles. he puts the entire line on a slight trend upward until we are called home. In other words, doing slightly better but still in the war.”

    I understand this and concur. But are we willing to say this about the vast number of Christian celebrities paid to teach us about Christ…even model Christ who are actually gathering followers after themselves? Who treated victims and their molesters the same at SGM? Who love their positions and preach that they are to be obeyed? Would you say they are only stumbling? Falling and then picking themselves up? And they simply need Grace?

    “That is the Christian. One who recognizes his sin, strives to obey, knows she will never be able to do it perfectly and constantly falls, only to begin again. It is the want to that counts. Well, pray for help and continue to proceed ahead, anyway. Or as the Bible says-press on to the goal.”

    Is this how you would describe the leaders we discuss on this blog? That they recognize their sin, false teaching, legalism and lawlessness and are striving?

  112. Lin

    It boils down to a simple “want to.” And I believe that many of these leaders have lost the voice of the Holy Spirit that gives such a thing to those who listen. I think, but am not sure, the Ed Young has lost the “want to” to lead a life of sacrifice and humility. On the other hand, each day, as I review my attitudes and actions, within the mess, I see a want to and small victories along the way.

    A “want to” is seriously leading a life of self contemplation, acting on what the Spirit shows me and persevering in the midst of failure. It is a life that seeks out the lost and hurting who can give nothing back to me and loving them. It is a life of looking for God in the midst of the pots and pans (to quote Brother Lawrence). It is a life that finds all things about the faith compelling, so much so that I would rather discuss God more than anything else (except, maybe politics but I am working on that). It is a life that seeks to help those who have been hurt by bullies in the church and the willingness to take the hits in terms of church membership and societal perception.

    Lin, I make many mistakes in the course of my day. But, each day, I see some glimmers of victories in the midst of what seems an overwhelming number of personal faults that I will work on until the day that I die.

    Some sins affect only me and my relationship to God. Other sins affect many others. It is those sins that must be dealt with dispatch. So, the legalism, that I have seen in SGM, which causes people to run around with their heads cut off and then they are kicked in the butt, to boot, needs exposure and intervention. By exposing Mahaney’s religious philosophy, groups like SGM Survivors prevent others from falling into the trap By discussing contentious issues such as creationism, we may help someone who is refusing to look at the faith due to an insistence on one point of view as necessary, move closer to the kingdom. In the midst of this, however, I am daily reminded of my own weaknesses. And many of the commenters here cause me to self evaluate on a daily basis-to wit Seneca’s comment that I adhere to a tepid Christianity today. Trust me, those things sting and I go through times of self examination.

    Somehow, I do not think that people like Driscoll and others go to this depth in evaluating themselves. They seem more intent on letting the rest of us know how screwed up we are. They are right. However, the dirty little secret is, so are they. And that is very dangerous because they hurt many, many people in their seeming inability to self assess. And that is why they fire elders and pastors who are honest and instead hire yes men to surround them

    And a blog is one means to put your ideas out there. I am willing to be criticized every day of my life. And I am trying to learn and grow from this experience. I am just a middle aged homemaker on a faith journey and am grateful for people like you who push me to think and to grow. And at the same time, I am so grateful for many who come to this blog, who are willing to share their lives in such openness with a group of strangers. They are stronger than they give themselves credit for. Most people hide in quiet shells in order not to be hurt again. Yet some of these folks tell their stories and put up with derogatory criticism. And in so doing, help many, many others who read in silence.

    I hope I have begun to touch on your insightful questions.

  113. Hi Yinka,

    John 1:1 says, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Then verse 14 says “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.”

    Revelation 1:7-8 also reveals who Jesus is:

    “Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him will see Him, and all the nations of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    Also see Isaiah 9:6 says, “For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

  114. Yinka said: His “I AM” statement in John is in a different grammatical category than YHVH’s “IAM” statement in Exodus.

    Apparently the people to whome he was speaking didn’t think so. If you are right, he could have saved himself a lot of trouble by correctign their misunderstanding. But saving himself wasn’t what he came to do…

  115. One thing I find very interesting: In Daniel 7:13-14, a passage I think most will agree is Messianic, it says:
    “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him.”
    One does not worship a rabbi, even an “exalted” one. To worship anything or anyone but God himself is idolatry.
    Similarly, when Thomas saw Jesus after the resurrection, he didn’t say “my exalted rabbi.” He fell on his knees and said “My lord and my God.”

  116. Junkster, you’re in my prayers, man….
    The point wasn’t (Jesus) saving himself; besides his original audience(critics,some aristocrats of the day, the “authorities”) wouldn’t have helped along him if he tried. Any excuse would be enough for them to condemn him.

    Lee Anne – thanks for the feedback. Those verses have gone through startling contortions over the centuries. The Revelation passages are especially difficult, but a close reading is very revealing–to me at least. The classic interpretation of John 1:1 is based on a scholarly greek grammar trick called “Colewell’s rule”. i.e you would have to apply that rule to the passage to make it read…”the word was God” ( big G ).

    But surely, y’all would agree I wasn’t going to hell for not seeing things the same way, right ? Some folks seem to think so (smiley face inserted, honest).

  117. Hi Yinka,

    Also we have Colossians 1:15-20 “The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.”

    Lee Anne

  118. Hi Yinka,

    Also, I wanted to let you know that I need to quit starting comments with the word “also”. 🙂

  119. RE Lee Anne on Tue, Sep 13 2011 at 10:39 pm:

    No my alcolholism does not define me. I ain’t like that no more.

    Twas’ my wife of 31 yrs I credit. She’s a goodly woman. She cured me of drinkin’ & wickedness & such. I ain’t like that no more.

  120. Junkster
    The “I Am” statement was one of the last straws for the Pharisees. They sure took offense and I am in agreement with you.

  121. RE Lee Anne on Wed, Sep 14 2011 at 12:07 am:

    Yeshua is all the things you replied and to me he will always be that beautiful Rabbi too. I view an alledged physical description of him in Isaiah 53 as poetic metaphor of a deeper spiritual truth.

    I cannot imagine the only begotten son of the Almighty as anything but perfect in physical beauty. In my opinion, if the first Adam was perfect in all respects, why should the last Adam (Yeshua) be anything less?

  122. Thank you all for your gracious sparring. Dee, are you implying I am KOO-KOO ? :).

    “Belief” for me is not where its at, frankly.
    For Pete sake, this blog is about “orthodox” folks behaving badly.
    I have no qualms about questioning dogmatic interpretations of creators’ nature–pause there and ponder–we’re talking about the CREATOR here. Who can really claim to have “figured it out” ? I honestly cannot reduce him/her/it to some triumphalist Hellenistic formulas–sorry.

    Garland: “Thomas’ words to Jesus in Greek literally read, “the Lord of me and the God of me.” In Greek this is how one would refer to two persons. If one wanted to refer to one person he would say, “the Lord and God of me.” This is confirmed by the first and Sixth Granville Sharp rules”. Sorry we strict monotheists have nifty rules of our own too : )

    Did the Ancient of Days approach the Ancient of Days? The context of the Daniel passage is very interesting, I agree.

    Also Lee Anee….um, thanks : )

  123. Hi Yinka,

    You said – “Garland: “Thomas’ words to Jesus in Greek literally read, “the Lord of me and the God of me.” In Greek this is how one would refer to two persons.”

    Jesus was two persons! He was both God and man. That is the miracle of the incarnation.

    Lee Anne

  124. A little knowledge of Greek grammar can be a dangerous thing.

    We ought to keep in mind that it’s unlikely that Jesus and His disciples went around speaking to each other in Greek. Almost certainly they spoke in Aramaic. What we have recorded in the gospels is translations of the conversations into Greek, as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Thus the Greek words chosen are those which God desired to most accurately convey in Greek the meaning of whatever the original words were. When Jesus is quoted as saying “I am”, the Greek words chosen (ego eimi)are precisely those used by the Septuagint translators of Exodus used for what Yahweh referened to Himself when speaking to Moses.

  125. Please not that I am NOT in agreement with the YouTube video that I just posted. I just found it very interesting that this man said exactly what Yinka had posted about Thomas’s words to Jesus “My Lord and My God” (the Lord of me and the God of me). This video also talked about this verse in relation to the Granville Sharp rules.

    This video assumes because of this rule, that Thomas cannot be referring to Jesus alone. That is a major fallacy. Thomas can be referring to the dual positions of Jesus (Lord and God), or His dual nature as being both man and God.

    I agree with Junkster that a little knowledge of the Greek grammar can be a dangerous thing. And even the experts can make faulty conclusions from the Greek grammar. So we need to be very careful who we are listening to.

    Lee Anne

  126. Re. translations: trying to force English-language meanings and grammatical constructions on other languages (ancient or modern) just does NOT work.

    I have a couple of friends who are skilled translators (modern languages). At one point, I helped someone edit translations from their native language into English (they normally translate from English into their native language – it works best that way). Please believe me when I say that idioms and sentence structure generally do NOT translate very well!

    (On that note, I seriously doubt that “the Lord of me and the God of me” is anything other than normal Koine Greek sentence construction – as opposed to a theological statement on the dual nature of Christ, but I’m definitely no Greek scholar and may well be wrong.)

    I mean… some languages (like Scots Gaelic and Hebrew) have no “neuter” pronouns. So any given noun is viewed – in grammar, NOT meaning! – as either masculine or feminine. it gets a masc. or fem. pronoun as a result.

    BUT that does not mean that the thing referred to *is* “feminine” or “masculine” – it’s about grammar and structure.

    (I’d better stop, as grammar is really not my strong suit, but it helps when learning other languages … and so far, in my minimal study of other languages, I have yet to run into anything that’s close to the weirdness of English grammar and usage rules!)

  127. Junkster – With all due respect, so what’s the alternative ? Less knowledge ? And why exactly would honest inquiry/a different theological conclusion be dangerous ?

    Ego eimi ho on, “I am the being/existence” (Exodus, LXX) vs eigo eim: ” I am he”, “It is I”, “I am the one I claim to be”…all over the NT, but in John, some scribe thought it best to render it as IAM. To be honest, its all greek to me.

    You say: “What we have recorded in the gospels is translations of the conversations into Greek, as inspired by the Holy Spirit. Thus the Greek words chosen are those which God desired to most accurately convey in Greek the meaning of whatever the original words were”.

    Wow, I’m not there yet…but I am happy you can wholeheartedly rest in that truth.

    Dee – Yes ma’am.

    Lee Ann – blessings, we only see things differently.

    Numo – Did i mention I love Jesus ?

    Cheers…

  128. Lee Anne – will check the video out, thanks. Scholars and everybody else with a critical take on things have mulled this issue for quite a while now (I’m in the latter category… a simple pew sitter who thinks about this stuff way more than I should (:)

    Finally…on topic. Here’s a quip I heard from Dever months ago. It was part of the “evangelizing” portion from one of his sunday expository lectures. I’m paraphrasing: “If you’re here, and not a christian, know this, whatever suffering you’re facing now is nothing compared to the judgement that is coming !”.

    As has been noted–we can’t be surprised if these calvinistas seem cold and bloodless–I mean, just look at that ! This stuff is in their theological DNA.

  129. Lee Anne – I readily admit NONE of us know what Thomas was thinking when ( and IF ) he made that statement. The dual-nature position came about from theological/political compromise developed centuries after the fact ( in Nicea)–and enforced by the sword, no less. I would not have considered the dual-nature option if i had not been taught–errr….indoctrinated : )

    Christians have always grappled with Jesus’ “nature”. We still do. Trinitarians often tell me all this stuff is “lofty” and rightly confusing. So why the dogmatic certitude on their part ? At the end of the day, Is this ‘really’ salvific ? As it is, my hands are full with trying to follow the WAY of the blessed Rabbi Yeshua–which is what YHVH requires of me anyway. I “worship” Yeshua. ( you might want to do a study of the range of meaning of “that word” in the greek). He is Israels’ coming King and Moshiach (Christ), God’s anointed.

  130. Yinka,

    I too prefer Messiah’s Hebrew name (Yeshua) rather than the Greek one. I think that when I’m gathered to my fathers and go down to Sheol it won’t matter much. When I am reanimated (literally) from the clay that is Sheol, I believe I will be judged not on what I believed but rather on what I did.

    When I read where Yeshua raised a guy who was beginning to stink like a dead cat from the dead, I take it literally. Even though there is no rational way to explain it, nor is there a way to replicate it, the gut resonance in me can only conclude that Yeshua is indeed Almighty God.

    In yet another place when I hear that Yeshua is grilling fish and flatbread over charcoal and calling to his old buds to “come and dine” my guts resonate again that this is no allegory and that Yeshua truly is Almighty God in human form.

  131. Had the fish with no equipment evident, had a fire going with no means apparent, and grilled the fish, again with what and how did he get it. Miracle food.

  132. Arce,

    Can you elucidate a bit more? Fish catching & fire making were certainly within the logistics of mortals and Christ alike with the implements common in their day. The inference from the text is strong that this is the case. Am I missing something?

    The point of the text for me anyway is that Yeshua’s resurrection was bodily and literal and not just a Hellenistic abstraction.

  133. @ Muff: I’m with you entirely on the literality (is that a real word?!) of the fish bbq – as well as thinking that Jesus, having lived for 33 years in the physical world, would have known how to start a fire, as well as how to catch, clean and grill fish. (He did spend a fair amount of time with fishermen, after all.)

    @ Arce: I see where you’re coming from, and mean no disrespect… but (here it comes) I fear that lots of us (including me!) have a tendency to overspiritualize certain aspects of the Gospels’ accounts of Jesus’ life. And the fish-grilling is one of those things.

    @ Yinka: Keep those comments coming! Agreed on the historical squabbles on Christ’s nature, although in my case, I don’t feel like I was indoctrinated. (Though literally, that *is* what went on in my catechetical classes. : ))

    @ Lee Anne: Also, I am guilty of starting too many sentences with “also.” 😉

  134. Numo

    Metaphors, symbolism and allegories played an important role in the Jewish community of that day. Certain numbers, such as 6 or 7, had deeper meaning beyond the numerical value. Even directionalism, such as “coming from the east” meant something more than direction . I think it is no coincidence that the angels appeared to the shepherds and Jesus would become known as the Great Shepherd.

    Fishing meant something deeper-Jesus said I will make you fishers of men. The fish became a symbol of the Christian community under siege.

    Even the location of the land of Israel between Egypt and Mesopotamia was important because the trade routes went right through the country and these people cold hear about the one true God of the israelite.

    The last time the disciples saw Jesus alive He had provided the Last Supper. Now, once again, He was alive and providing for them, a symbol that he would always care for them and be with them. He fed them fish-perhpas as a reminder that they would be fishers of men. Even the lighting of the fire to cook the fish could recall that God sent a pillar of fire to the israelite to guide them at night and so Jesus was providing a new fire. There is much depth in the ordinary in the Bible. I taught about this at a former church and it continues to move me how everything has such deep meaning or as Aslan said-It is an ancient magic.