Sovereign Grace Ministries Captures the Media Spotlight

Le Mont Saint Michel

(taken by Deb)

“We as a family experienced a pattern of spiritual abuse, hypocrisy, harshness, deceit and some unfortunate threats that were not righteous for Christians and need to be repented.”

Larry Tomczak in a Washington Post article published on September 6, 2011

Since morphing themselves into Sovereign Grace Ministries, C.J. Mahaney and his lieutenants have been trying to capture the world’s attention with their distinctive brand of Christianity. At long last all that clamoring has attracted the attention of The Washington Post; however, this time this cadre of neo-Calvinists, accustomed to having complete control, have absolutely no control over the free press. These Calvinista leaders, who took full advantage of a new communication tool called the internet, have built a movement by promoting themselves while maintaining strict control over their own press (websites and blogs).

Michelle Boorstein, a Washington Post reporter, has been investigating Sovereign Grace Ministries, and her findings have just been published in an article entitled “Sovereign Grace Ministries, riven by conflict, seeks to change”. You can access Boorstein’s piece here.

The Post article begins as follows:

“When C.J. Mahaney took a leave of absence this summer from the helm of his 100-church denomination, saying he was guilty of “various expressions of pride,” conservative evangelicals nationwide took notice.

A college dropout who was once a hard-core partier, Mahaney went on to become one of the most-recognized and popular faces of neo-Calvinism, which teaches that man is lowly, sinful and in desperate need of spiritual oversight. Mahaney, with his perma-grin, distinctively casual style (shaved head, no jackets), and successful books and conferences, put a happy, hip face on the idea of discipline.

But inside his Gaithersburg-based Sovereign Grace Ministries movement, there was a growing sense that things had gone too far. Former church members said Mahaney had created something they thought was more like a cult.”

The Post reporter then points out that the tipping point for Mahaney appears to be Brent Detwiler’s hundreds of pages of documentation that, as Boorstein put it, “portrayed Mahaney as fixated on the sins of everyone below him, particularly critics”. She was also quick to point out that the documents reveal how C.J. Mahaney threatened to share sensitive information about a family member of Larry Tomczak (the movement’s co-founder) if he expressed criticism of the ministry publicly. It certainly appears that Mahaney wanted to silence Tomczak regarding a move toward Reformed theology. According to the Post reporter, Mahaney declined to comment for the article.

Boorstein informed the Washington Post constituency that C.J. Mahaney is currently attending Mark Dever’s church (Capitol Hill Baptist Church), which is Southern Baptist. Perhaps Washington Post readers will find this rather odd, just as we have. Why is Mahaney running from his own ministry?

The reporter further explained that two blogs have been extremely busy with commenters (many who remain anonymous out of fear) sharing “story after story of Sovereign Grace pastors being abusively controlling, shaming people who criticized clergy and dividing families when someone disagreed with a pastor. Some alleged that sexual abuse counseling had been poor, with victims being told to also scour themselves for sin.”

Larry Tomczak, who co-founded the ministry with Mahaney and was ousted by Mahaney two decades later, said (in addition to the quote at the beginning of this post):

“There has been something systematic in the handling of people that has deviated from biblical, pastoral norms and has had serious implications in many people’s lives. Lots of people have been waving flags. Hopefully, things are changing.”

Boorstein explains that SGM has brought in a Christian reconciliation firm to help SGM deal with Mahaney; however, the Ambassadors of Reconciliation (AoR) recently released their report explaining that the SGM Board, not AoR, should make decisions regarding C.J. Mahaney. The Post reporter went on to say that two Covenant Life Church pastors have stepped down; however, she left out one tiny detail — the two leaders who resigned are none other than Mahaney’s sons-in-law.

Calvinism has been gaining momentum in recent years, particularly among the seminary crowd. One of the most important statements in Boorstein’s article was made by Dennis Horton, a Baylor University professor of religion who studies resurgent Calvinism. He had this to say about the Neo-Calvinists: “Of all the groups, they are more susceptible to authority issues.”

We have stressed repeatedly in this forum that the priesthood of the believer has been marginalized by those who promote hyper-authoritarianism. Tragically, many of tomorrow’s church leaders believe they hold higher positions of authority than the average Christian. We believe that Sovereign Grace Ministries has been the forerunner of such authoritarianism and that the leaders, particularly Mahaney, are reaping what they have sown. Things are not always as they appear in Calvin land.

As the Post article rightly points out: “The Web is playing a powerful role in Mahaney’s woes even as his movement owes much of its popularity to it.” This point cannot be stressed enough! Sovereign Grace Ministries, more than almost any other ministry, has led the way in using technology to its own advantage. Now the internet appears to be the snare that has entrapped SGM and exposed them to a watching world. Had the personal testimonies of current and former SGMers not become available for public consumption, the iron-fisted control that elevated Mahaney above everyone else in this "family of churches" would have continued.

Boorstein ends with this poignant comment from Tomczak: “I think many people nationwide have been watching and waiting and hoping for this day to come. We can’t cover it up. Bring it out, change where change is necessary. Confess where there have been wrongs, repent, go forward, be redemptive.”

Commenters have started chiming in, and here is what HealingReign shared:

“I'm grateful to see this issue come to the forefront. We have such love for each other in the church, and to see it being twisted into a means to manipulate and control members of the church into submission to an overbearing leadership was very painful. The scars left by the misguided legalism in this denomination will take years to heal.”

I want to conclude with this "observation". 

The Calvinistas (especially Mahaney & Co.), who believe so staunchly in the sovereignty of God, now appear to be running from the doctrine they so glibly preach.

 

Lydia's Corner:       2 Kings 15:1-16:20        Acts 19:13-41        Psalm 147:1-20        Proverbs 18:4-5     

   

Comments

Sovereign Grace Ministries Captures the Media Spotlight — 83 Comments

  1. Deb

    Well, they all played the game “Look at me, look at me.” Well, the Washington Post did just that. Too bad they can’t control what people think after they looked.

  2. Eagle
    No experience is ever wasted. We grow and become more than we can imagine. Pain causes us to grow and become more empathetic and understanding of others. I feel more deeply for others now.

  3. HowDee YaAll,

    every’budy knows dat de emperor ain’t got no cloths!

    What?

    How many abused child’rin is it gonna take fer dem ta see?

    (sad face)

    C.J. go home…

    and take youz abuzers wit ya!

    (we ain’t gonna take it no mo!)

    Sing!  It!  no! no! no!

    AUGHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! 

    “…SGM is just one too many mornings, and a thousand miles behind…”

    Change?

    “We as a family experienced a pattern of spiritual abuse, hypocrisy, harshness, deceit and some unfortunate threats that were not righteous for Christians and need to be repented,”

    “There has been something systematic in the handling of people that has deviated from biblical, pastoral norms and has had serious implications in many people’s lives. Lots of people have been waving flags. Hopefully, things are changing.”

    “I think many people nationwide have been watching and waiting and hoping for this day to come,” “We can’t cover it up. Bring it out, change where change is necessary. Confess where there have been wrongs, repent, go forward, be redemptive.”

    –Larry Tomczak , co-founder of Sovereign Grace Ministeries

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/sovereign-grace-ministries-riven-by-conflict-seeks-to-change/2011/08/19/gIQAJuXt7J_story.html

    Bring it on!

    (Lord, you come a call’in, cuz they sure ain’t listen ta me!)

    Sopy  ;~)

    ___
    Johnny Cash & Bob Dylan – One Too Many Mornings
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWYR5i0tMuA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  4. Dee,

    Glory! ;~)

    “Life’s Railway To Heaven” 

    Life is like a mountain railway
    With an engineer that’s brave
    We must make the run successful
    From the cradle to the grave

    Heed the curves and watch the tunnels
    Never falter, never fail
    Keep your hand upon the throttle
    And your eye upon the rail

    Blessed Savior, Thou will guide us
    Till we reach that blissful shore
    Where the angels wait to join us
    In that train forevermore

    Oh, Blessed Savior, Thou will guide us!
    Till we reach that blissful shore
    Where the angels wait to join us
    In God’s grace forevermore…

    Sopy ;~)
    ___
    “Life’s Railway To Heaven”
    Lyrics © Sony/ATV Music Publishing LLC

    Johnny Cash & Friends – Life’s Railway To Heaven
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ-T_tryaE0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  5. And Bob Dylan’s “Blood on the Tracks” is the greatest album ever. Every song…amazing!

    Deb, you wrote: Tragically, many of tomorrow’s church leaders believe they hold higher positions of authority than the average Christian.

    I have been in Sovereign Grace (not much longer, though, I think) for about 15 years, at three different SGM churches…my current church is absolutely mute on this subject. The silence is deafening, and exceedingly exasperating. It’s like this is not even happening! I’m weird-ed out by the aloofness of our SGM church to the uproar back at home-base. So strange!

    Anyway, Deb, you’ve hit this right on. I’ve always felt that there was a severe lacking in humility on the part of the leadership. At my old church, the preaching was always just…hmm, so sure of itself if you know what I mean. Hard to describe, but just an attitude of utter right-ness about their perspectives and interpretations.

  6. One of the saddest aspects of this is that SGM (among other Calvinista groups and teachers) has become something of a halfway house for people coming out of hard-line fundamentalism like ATI/IBLP and Vision Forum. Sometimes I have to really grab hold of myself to keep from screaming, “No! They’re authoritarian too! It’s just in portions more easily digested and covered in smoke and mirrors!”, but I have to look at any move toward freedom as a positive for them and realize that it takes time to break deep addictions.

    Hopefully some of this media scrutiny will shine some light on the dark places these people haven’t seen – and not for the sensationalism of the failings of others, but for the benefit of those moving into the light.

  7. My own familiarity with abusive church leadership is from the independent Baptist circles that attempted to emulate the late Jack Hyles and his ministry.

    They were ALL Arminian in their theology. Not a Calvinist among them. So I would disagree with Deb that the root problem is a Calvinistic theology.

  8. Argo,

    It certainly appears that the Holy Spirit has been silenced in SGM and replaced by hyper-authoritarian leaders. God cannot bless such a religious ‘system’. Please know that I will be praying for you. Blessings.

  9. Seneca

    Please note the term “Neo-Calvinism.” We prefer the term “Calvinista.” I cannot stress this point enough.The traditional Calvinists are NOT the problem. These Calvinistas have brought in hyper-authoriatrianism, strict and utter complementarianism, strange views on women staying in physically abusive situations “for a season,” and the doctrine of the Eternal Subordination of the Son which is the made up cover for women being submissive to men throughout all eternity. There is no question in my mind that these Calvinistas are the cause of these issues that are seen in SGM. Mahaney is one of them and Mohler and the rest are rushing to his defense.

  10. Argo

    The tragedy of the situation is that men, using their own methods of conquest, domination, and subjugation, can covert the lack of the Spirit in a church. Through subtle methods, these men become the voice of the “Holy Spirit” and many people do not realize, until things get very bad, that it has nothing to do with God.

    Men have free will to get the heck out of these situations. However, many can’t because they have become dependent and also have a hard time accepting that they fell for it. For some, such an admission is too hard to make. But, there is life out there.

  11. Dee, exactly right on about the leaders of sgm becoming the “Holy Spirit” to others in their churches. When people want a king over them instead of the God this is what happens.

  12. Tem

    I like your observation and comment!

    But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king.
    -1 Samuel 8:6, 7 (NIV)

  13. The hubris on the part of those using the “eternal subordination of the Son” as a basis for promoting a clearly defined headship “structure” to the marriage relationship is astounding. Truly.

    It feels like a fundamental baptist church from the 70s that would hate Billy Graham. No nuance. No encouragement to cultivate a heart of wisdom. Just black and white – “Men, you’re in charge.” Sorry, the Bible is wiser than this…read Ephesians 5:21…CAREFULLY!

  14. I did not think that this article was very interesting. If I had not read any of your posts which summarize the situations and some of the things that have gone on, or at least been complained about, I would not really know what was going on.

    The article would have been stronger if it had used one example (like the abuse account) as a spring board to paint the picture. As it was, it was kind of generic.

    I think that the article was fair, but I did not come away with the sense that this story has legs in the secular media. It seems more like a story about management, and that SGM will fix its management problems.

    The most telling part of the story, in my opinion, was when it said Josh Harris told the followers to read the blogs, then he told them not to read the blogs.

    Only someone with some background would see the irony in that. This is ths same guy to told people not to date because it’s not in the Bible, then created a courtship model that is not in the Bible either, then said after so many years – oops, all of the young adults in my church are incapapble of having adult opposite sex normal relationships. Maybe I was wrong to have recommended ditching the dating thing.

    But the other thing about this is who wants to go to a church where the pastor tells you what to read? Isn’t that the real problem.

    Pastors are supposed to help people think about things the way Christ would think, so there is a high degree of intellectual guidance that a pastor, or any Christian teacher, is supposed to have.

    But to tell people what to read or what not to read?

    We cross the line when that starts happening, in my opinion.

    But apparently the folks who attend SGM churches are o.k. with that.

    Most Christians I know, and most Calvinists I know, are not o.k. with that.

  15. Anonymous said:
    “The most telling part of the story, in my opinion, was when it said Josh Harris told the followers to read the blogs, then he told them not to read the blogs.”

    Yes, Anonymous, that part of the Post article jumped out at me as well. I did think it was fair and balanced.

    What’s important to understand is unless victims have the courage to come out and tell their stories (using their real identities), SGM will probably fade from the public spotlight and get back to business as usual. Sad but true…

    I absolutely agree with you about controlling what people read. I guess it’s a great way to sell books in the bookstore at your local Sovereign Grace church. Cha-ching!

  16. Deb and Dee,
    Thank you for your words of encouragement!
    I was praying this morning and a fresh sense of despair came over me as I thought about SGM. I predicted on other blogs, many weeks ago, that SGM would not survive as a legitimate organization in the Christian world because of their refusal to humbly repent of their sins and their duplicitous ways. Their marginalization of the many victims, the refusal to put protocols and processes in writing so that they may be applied fairly, their ignorance and criticism of mental health and other professions, and the rampant accusing of their accusers.

    I had a fresh sense that nothing is changing there. They are interested in this going away. It will be business as usual as soon as they can do it without it looking too obvious. This is not stark revelation! This is obvious to all who have eyes to see.

    It doesn’t matter how many articles are written, or whether they are positive or negative. The fact is that they’ve not humbled themselves to God’s discipline. When that happens, all that you teach from here on out is simply human words and human wisdom. There is no longer any Holy inspiration. Your human words and teaching simply fizzle out and blow away on the wind. So sad.

  17. Argo,

    What is different now about SGM is the internet. Leaders in this movement could get away with their abusive shepherding tactics for several decades because they could silence their followers by using words like “gossip”.

    There are RED FLAGS on the internet for those who investigate this ministry. As I have said before, CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!

  18. “Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain that build it.”

    All denominations and “families of churches” are man made institutions. The people are of God, but the institutions and organizations are not of God.

    They labor in vain.

  19. “Mahaney, with his perma-grin, distinctively casual style (shaved head, no jackets), and successful books and conferences, put a happy, hip face on the idea of discipline.”

    I realize we’re discussing some very serious issues here, but may I humbly nominate the above quotation for Sentence-of-the-Year in religious journalism?

  20. Sergius Martin-George,

    I wasn’t going to call attention to that particular statement, but now that you’ve brought it up, it was a great “observation” by a Jewish reporter.

  21. HowDee YaAll,

    “What’s important to understand is unless victims have the courage to come out and tell their stories (using their real identities), SGM will probably fade from the public spotlight and get back to business as usual…” –Deb

    “What is different now about SGM is the internet. Leaders in this movement could get away with their abusive shepherding tactics for several decades because they could silence their followers by using words like “gossip”.
    There are RED FLAGS on the internet for those who investigate this ministry.  …CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!” –Deb 

    “SGM System Failure”

    What?

    SGM, We know you’re out there…

    You are exposed now.

    We know that you’re afraid… you’re afraid of the free exchange of ideas in the blogging world.

    You’re afraid of change & exposure.

    We don’t know the future.

    We didn’t come here to tell you how this is going to end.

     We came here to tell you how it’s going to begin. 

    We are going to continue posting these blog comments, and we’re going to continue praying that God will show the world what you don’t want them to see. 

    That God would show them a world without you…

    A world without your rules and your controls, without SGM borders or SGM boundaries. A world where faith without fear or abuse is possible.

    Where we go from there is a choice God is leaving up to you. 

    Choose very, very carefully…

    hahahahahahahahahaha

    Sopy ;~)


    The SGM – Final Scene ( grin)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzr8fcrD1bg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  22. Pingback: Back from the beach | Civil Commotion

  23. Sergius

    You know, permafrost means that the ground is not good for planting and growing. I think the sentence that you have nominated for the sentence of the year reflects something about his heart. A perma-smile for a frozen heart.

  24. Quoting the Ephesians 5 versus on submission is dangerous. First of all it clearly says that submission is to be mutual. Then it says wives are to submit to husbands as to the Lord. Then it says that the husband to to love the wife as Christ loved the church — aka, climb on a cross and hand out nails out of love for your spouse — and if you love her that much, why in the world would you do anything that would harm or even dismay her.

  25. Sopy/Deb

    That Matrix video is the you tube for the entire SGM mess. Deb, let’s embed it in our next post. Awesome!!!!!

  26. Eagle

    While Christians ought to have the best reasons to not engage in these sorts of abuses it doesn’t disprove Christianity.

    No argument with you that these sorts of behaviors provide fodder for opposing viewpoints but it does not disprove the Faith.

    It does give the Faith a bad reputation, which is enough to keep some people away. Sadly.

    Matt

  27. Eagle

    However, that is why these blogs exist. Thee are many honest people out here who want to expose the problems of the church. Here is the issue. We are sinners, even after our conversion. We will continue to sin. In fact, we should be the first ones to stand up and say, we need Jesus.

    However, ministries, such as the Calvinistas, try to pretend that they are somehow better than the world. The outside world has sin, the congregation has sin, but the “leaders” do not. And, the leaders are just as bad, maybe even worse because they judge the sin of other’s and refuse to acknowledge their own.

    And so the world sees a bunch of hypocrites who deny their own sin. But, if we all lived in the grace of Jesus, admitted our sins and explain the freedom of forgiveness, we would be a true example of why Jesus came. To quote Martin Luther (and I have posted the letter he wrote as some evidence that he said it) “Go and sin boldly.” He did not mean to revel in our sin. He meant to freely admit our need for forgiveness and grace on a regular basis. It sure is freeing not to have to pretend that we are sooooo good, far better than others!

  28. Matt
    It is the pretense that somehow, if we hang around churches like SGM we are just a bit better than the world. We aren’t, we are just forgiven We spend a lot of time telling people the formula to raise “perfect” kids-homeschool, Christians school, avoid movies, Power Rangers, whatever. And guess what. Those kids grow up and still have problems. Why? because we are all fallen. We forget about the reason why jesus came. He didn’t come to make us “better” people. He came to forgive us our sins and help us to live in that freedom.

    Christians seem to have a knack for sniffing out sin in the world and totally ignore it in our leaders. And that hypocrisy screws up our witness to the world.

    Mahaney used to call his churches the happiest place on earth. Hogwash!! This is what causes people to turn their backs. The outsiders see our sin and misery more clearly than do we. And someday, we will stand in judgment for our holier than thou attitudes.

  29. Arce

    I agree – that was my point in quoting Ephesians 5:21. Mutual submission governs the whole passage on marriage. And verses 21ff. are governed by Ephesians 5:18 where believers are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

    To read passages like these and conclude that what’s important is a clear authority structure rather than a mode of relating is, in my opinion, to miss the point.

    If I’m a loving husband to my wife the way Christ is a loving husband to the church, you’re right…why would I do anything to harm or dismay her? Why would I constantly be getting in her face about how she needs to submit and not “hinder my leadership”?

  30. continued…

    To read Ephesians 5:21ff and conclude that what’s important is a clear authority structure rather than a mode of relating is like…

    reading Genesis 1 for a literal blow by blow description of how God created all things in six 24-hour days.

    🙂

    Just kidding…just kidding

  31. Matt–

    …because men are using Scripture as their god, rather than looking to Christ to affirm them in their masculinity. Moreso, they are mis-using Scripture to do that. Their reliance upon their misuse of Scripture to affirm their own brokeness and insecurity is so arrogant, yet weak, that they cannot see who Christ truly is and that in Him is where we live and breathe and move and have our being. He is the Word incarnate and they forget that also.

    Broken men find their identity in women’s response to their authority and to the misuse of Scripture rather than looking completely to God to establish them well and firmly in their masculinity. How can a God who would tell a man he is to rule over women, as well as override the individual will of a woman, also affirm a woman in her being, her feminity, and request that she do that by leaning not to the left or to the right, but standing aright, before her Maker and expressing her feminity as bearing that aspect/image of God? You just can’t have it both ways.

    If both male and female fully express God, then why would God subordinate a part of himself, to another part of himself, which should be whole and perfect?

  32. Matt
    So how do you feel about salsa dancing? Sorry, it begged to be asked, since Twinkle Toes Thabiti discussed the hindering of his leadership in the dance. That gave the Lord of the Dance a whole new meaning!

  33. Dee

    I agree – there is this strange conflation of the American Dream, Determinism and Law Keeping/Legalism inhabiting present day Evangelicalism.

    Evangelicals want the American Dream offered to the Upper Middle Class and they think it is owed to them if they keep all God’s rules or their Church’s rules (i.e. Homeschool your kids, avoid popular culture, don’t curse, don’t drink alcohol, etc.)

    This post could get lengthy so I’ll stop here 🙂

  34. …surely, upon asking one of these dudes from where do I get my being? Where do I derive my feminity? Who should I bend to in order to find my identity? They aren’t going to say my husband, are they? Or to my pastor. Or to any man in my life. So if I am instructed to look soley to God for my identity and who I am in Christ, that also includes my gender and not just my spirit, but the whole of me. And if I am to look to Christ for that image, that identity, how can I look at him for that wholeness, that complete picture, if I am not also bearing his image as female?

  35. Dee

    If I were more coordinated I would Salsa, but my wife is less clumsy than I so I would let her lead 🙂

    You recognized my quote…”hinder my leadership”. Oh good Lawd!

  36. Anonymous and Eagle

    The newspaper had to be very careful about the sex abuse stuff. Unless someone was willing to go on record and give their names, the paper cannot write about it in the specific. Also, for some parents who had tiny children who were molested, they do not want to bring this up again so that the older child will have to relive the pain and even incur some new pain. SGM has not been very kind to these families, and who wants to go through more abuse? This is a very tricky situation.

    However, the reporter is well aware of the situation, and I would not be surprised if there is ongoing investigation that will occur over a longer period of time.

    This post will help those who are considering SGM to be forewarned. It will not help the true believers. In fact, I doubt if much will help the true believers. They are stuck in a mess that they bought into a long time ago. To admit to problems is tantamount to admitting that you were fooled by the system, and that is a tough pill for anyone to swallow.

  37. NLR

    You have hit on a very important problem in the gender discussions. If women must have males to lead them, are they truly created in the Imago Dei or just an afterthought to keep Adam happy and fed? If we are created in that Holy Image, then part of who we are is reflected by the Image. Which means that both represent Him. ESS, blind submission by one sex alone, seem to place women as something less than created in the Image while men fully represent Christ . Very perplexing .

  38. Matt
    Evangelicalism has embraced Neo Calvinism which has ties to OT covenant theology. We are still in the If..Then contract with God. (If you keep the Laws, I will bring rain and your crops will grow.if not, you will be banished from the land.)

    Have you noticed that whenever there is a hurricane, tornado, whatever, Christian leaders are quick to point out we are being punished by God? So, Raleigh gets hit by a tornado but Amsterdam is spared?

    Tomorrow I am posting an intriguing look at 9/11 written by none other than our agnostic friend, Eagle. It has already been published at the internet Monk. It will touch on this subject as Eagle recounts some Christian responses on that terrible day. All I can say is “Ouch.”

  39. Every day, I essay to build up my spouse, complimenting her, saying that she is beautiful (she is), remarking how caring and bright she is when she tells me about some good deed she did or some problem she has been working on and has solved. Or how great her advice to one of our adult children when I overheard her side of their conversation. And when she has doubts about ever getting a job as a Baptist minister, how really excellent her teaching and preaching has been. ALL TRUE.

    And she builds me up in the same ways.

    This is after 32 years of marriage, after I have lost the beautiful hair I had when we met and now have an extra chin hiding under my beard and she has developed lines on her face and a bit of a weight issue.

    We still snuggle while watching TV, hold hands on a walk, ogle each other, complement the other’s cooking, writing, words in SS class, etc. True love is like that.

    BTW, she proposed on the 26th day we had known each other, having met in a single adults Sunday School class. Such forwardness was and is rather out of character and seems to be extended only toward me.

  40. Lord of the Dance…I’m laughing hard 🙂

    I can only imagine what my wife would do if I said, “Honey, thanks for your input but you’re really hindering my leadership on this issue.”

    Oh my garsh!

  41. Arce–

    How did she ask? HOw did you respond? I mean, I nkow what the final result was… But I’m intrigued…

  42. …not that I plan on asking anybody any time soon (wink wink) hahahahah! But I might slide that one in my back pocket just in case. lol

  43. NLR

    I agree with you that some of the problem for these guys is Bibliolatry – idolatry of the Bible.

    Instead of Scripture being the medium through which we meet the risen Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, it becomes a cudgel with which to beat the unsuspecting and less informed.

    You know, those who didn’t go to the Pastor’s College for nine months.

    I’m so bad 🙂

  44. She had received a letter from her mother telling her it sounded like things were getting serious and she should tell me about it sooner rather than later. She has a seizure disorder that is fully controlled medically. So after supper and before going to a movie, we sat on the floor of her apartment and she told me about it. There is a possibility of genetic cause and transmission to a child. As we talked, I said that it didn’t really matter to me, and said “We’ll have to deal with that if we ever have children.” She said “Don’t you mean when?” I took that as meaning that we would be married (otherwise zero chance of children together). So I said yes.

    BTW, no evidence of any problem for the now adult children, in case you have that concern.

  45. No, but a week later we went shopping for her a ring. Practical as she is, it was a ruby ring, rather than a diamond. Good since our daughter is absolutely opposed to having diamonds (i.e., blood diamonds).

  46. Arce–

    I liked that story 🙂

    Matt–

    You are funny! (that tongue still in your cheek? lol)

  47. Pingback: Around Town: Week in Review (from Africa, IHOP, Vision Forum/Patriarchy to SGM Hits Media Spotlight) « The Reformed Traveler

  48. from SGM Refuge:

    Random Quote

    “What stands opposed to…virtue is tyrannical pride, when the pastor exempts himself from all subjection, and tyrannizes over the Church. It was for this that Ezekiel condemned the false prophets, that is, that they ruled cruelly and tyrannically (Ezekiel 34:4). Christ also condemned the Pharisees, because they laid intolerable burdens on the shoulders of the people which they would not touch, no, not with a finger (Matthew 23:4). This imperious rigour, then, which ungodly pastors exercise over the Church, cannot be corrected, except their authority be restrained, so that they may rule in such a way as to afford an example of a godly life.” — John Calvin

  49. Deb, I’m really impressed with how well you wrote your post. In case no one else has mentioned it: well done!

    I also thought the Washington Post article was well written and I appreciate the way Michelle approached the whole topic. SGM is on the radar and this may be the first of others. I think some might feel left out, but I’m sure she has a nice file of information she can use to help her in keeping an eye on the situation with CJ Mahaney and SGM as it continues to develop.

    It certainly won’t be as easy for Mahaney & Co to quietly shift gears and avoid detection by playing the cameleon once again. I appreciated the way in which Ms. Boorstein pointed out that Mahaney’s motivation in blackmailing Tomzcak was to keep him quiet over SGM’s doctrinal shift to Calvinism and away from being Charismatic. For those that were in the organization during that time it was clear Mahaney wanted to go about the transition quietly, without questions, and to execute his plan without informing the membership. And having been in SGM during that time, I can tell you the leadership did not take kindly to anyone asking any questions about the change to an emphasis on the cross and away from individuals exercising their spiritual gifts. But of course, the “spiritual gift” of “leadership” was always in good standing.

    I know there has been a lot of speculation about what will happen now, and how CJ will return to his perch atop SGM. Many tend to believe it will soon be business as usual.

    I don’t believe it will be business as usual ever again at SGM. I think there are a lot of people who know that there have been attempts for YEARS to communicate the need for change with those in charge in SGM and they have resisted. The blogs came into existence for a PURPOSE. Others can try and discount the testimonies of people that have been harmed by SGM and have exposed the organization as a hierarchical structure that doesn’t serve the will of God according to scripture and isn’t a true “family of churches.”

    I think the time has come for change – this is true. But the changes SGM will make won’t be because they’ve been so humble and obedient to the will of God for years and now they need to make some changes. It will be all about keeping SGM alive and doing damage control. Meanwhile much greater things will be happening within the church that they will miss out on because their senses haven’t been trained to follow – only to LEAD.

  50. Veering slightly off topic here, but since the idea of the Eternal Subordination of the Son came up earlier in this thread, I’d like to hear opinions about that. I think I understand the proof text for that idea, as well as the counter arguments. What I am wondering is where that idea has sprung from as a recent doctrine, and why it is gaining traction. Most specifically, I have to wonder if I am the only one with the nagging disquietude that it is a bit like backing into the heresy of Arianism.

  51. Not Again,

    I understand Jesus to be God manifest in the flesh. He and the Father are ONE. I think that the Oneness Pentecostals are closer to the truth than we may want to admit. They teach that God is the Father in creation, the Son in redemption, and the Holy Spirit in regeneration. One God in 3 roles or manifestations, rather than in 3 distinct persons.

  52. Not Again
    It came up because of the NeoCalvinist insistence on strict complementarianism. They believe that gender roles continue into eternity so that women will be submissive to men throughout eternity. In order to place this is a primary doctrine, they claim that Jesus is submissive to the Father for eternity. Therefore, women must remain this way as well.

  53. dee, yes – it sure does. But does that mean it is not true? The word Trinity is not in the Bible and the Holy Spirit never used “God in 3 persons” to describe God. So then I see no need to be so dogmatic about the orthodox Trinity teachings. (IMHO)

  54. Dee–

    I just learned something: I didn’t know they believed it carried over into eternity? Thatwe will be submissive to men in eternity?? Are you sure?

    If so, are they sure they are not reading the Qu’ran? I mean, that aint so far off from 13 virgins at your disposal in heaven. Boy! I tell you, these upper class white Christian men are growing more in common with Muslims every day, huh?

  55. Eternal subordination of the Son to the Father is heresy.

    I have asked, “What about the Holy Spirit; the *third* *Person* of the Holy Trinity? It sort of kind of doesn’t follow the husband-wife template perfectly, does it.

    Well, their answer is the Holy Spirit is this happy holy household’s Child.

    Imagine that, the eternal childship of the Holy Spirit.

    The Holy Spirit is a *person* and is God as much as the Father and Son Imagine the audacity of supporting your sexist patriarchal position by blaspheming the Trinity particularly infantalizing the Holy Spirit.

    I guess the Father makes the Son change the diapers, WTH?!

    That is how broken their system is, they blaspheme God to their own end.

    FUBAR!

  56. NLR
    I NEVER joke about Calvinistas and their theology.And I think it sounds like the 72 virgins thing as well.

  57. Dee doesn’t joke about Calvinistas, but I will:

    A certain Calvinista pastor was walking home one winter night when he heard a cry of distress from the nearby frozen lake. A man turned out to have fallen through the ice and was now about to drown.

    The Calvinista recognized the man, and knew that he was a member of an Arminian church. Here’s a chance, he thought to himself, to win this unbeliever over to the True Gospel.

    “Tell me,” he said to the drowning Arminian, “Will you reject the heresy of Arminianism and fully embrace the Doctrines of Grace?”

    “No!” cried the Arminian, and then disappeared under the water.

    A few moments later he came back up.

    The Calvinista calmly repeated his question. “Will you reject the heresy of Arminianism and fully embrace the Doctrines of Grace?”

    “No!” cried the Arminian, and went under again.

    This time he was gone for a minute or more, but he managed to fight his way to the surface once more.

    “Will you,” said the Calvinista for the third time, “reject the heresy of Arminianism and fully embrace the Doctrines of Grace?””

    “Yes! All right!” gasped the Arminian.

    “Then,” said the Calvinista with a beneficent grin, “you may die in peace.”

  58. HowDee YaAll,

    Dee: “This post will help those who are considering SGM to be forewarned.”

    Ok.

    Dee: “It will not help the true believers (in SGM). In fact, I doubt if much will help the true believers (in SGM).”

    What?

    Dee: (“They are stuck in a mess that they bought into a long time ago…” )

    (sad face)

    Dee: “To admit to problems is tantamount to admitting that you were fooled by the SGM system, and that is a tough pill for anyone to swallow…” 

    Yes! 

    It takes plenty of courage to “see”, and understand the truth of what SGM has become, and yet far greater “courage” to act upon that understanding.

    Huh?

    But that is what we are urging everyone, isn’t it?

    Right?

    (The alternative is too scary to even contemplate…)

    The choice is yours.

    All we are offering is the truth.

    The rest is up to you to decide.

    Take the “red pill” (*the truth explained here), you will thank yourself for it and your family will love you for it!

    Ok. Sure. -think about it,

    A battle for your very soul?

    No laughing matter, indeed! right?

    Sopy ;~)

    ___
    The Matrix – The Pill Scene (with English Subtitle)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFhn_GUAhGU&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    dee’s comment on Thu, Sep 08 2011 at 03:55 pm (this post)

    * See also: The Wartburg Watch: Dissecting Christian trends:
    http://thewartburgwatch.com/category/sovereign-grace-ministries/sgm/

  59. Dee–Amanda

    I didn’t see your responses to me about CBMW and gender roles in heaven. dee, I know you went joking, lol, but I just had my doubt! I mean, that crap can’t be real!!! Are they fa-real??!!! I just read the link Amanda gave and I had to turn away. It made me so freaking mad. Have you done a post about that specific belief? I’d love for us all here to rip that one to shreds. I wanna hear what people think as well. Thats a real doozy. Lets do it??!

  60. NLR
    I never joke about ESS because it makes me so mad. Yep-women are submissive in eternity. Honey, you will be brushing Dever’s wings in heaven and that is no joke. I’m happy to do another story on this. We’ve already done a couple in the past.

  61. Hi Not Again,

    I believe that the ESS is heresy because it lessens the role of Jesus Christ in the Trinity to the position of an eternal subordinate. It is then used to support keeping women subordinate by saying there is an eternal order in which subordination is part of the godhead.

    Complementarians, like CJ Mahaney & Carolyn Mahaney, maintain that women and men are so essentially different by design that they should exist in different spheres. Women are never to assume any positions of authority or leadership over males and if a woman desires to do so, they believe that desire springs from feminism and the fallen nature. In short, those desires are sinful and war against what they teach as “the gospel.” Instead of recognizing sin as the cause of relational hierarchy (Gen 3), they teach male supremacy based on Adam having given Eve her name before the advent of sin.

    Biblical egalitarianians believe that gender makes no difference in our relationships with one another and that as believers, we are all one in the Spirit. God is not partial to male leadership and each of us is responsible to exercise our faith to build up and encourage one another in Christ. To disallow women from full participation on the basis of gender is sexism and stems from sin.

    Furthermore biblical egalitarians believe that while men and women have different bodies, we are one in essential being. Women was created from the rib of a man, which is why Paul said the man is the head (source) of the woman’s life. The man was formed by Christ from the ground, so He is the head (source) of the man’s life. As a consequence of sin, men and women became enslaved to their primordial elements: men to the dust, woman to the man. But Jesus destroyed the power of sin and in Him we are free to relate to one another as perfect equals – just as the Son relates to the Father, the Father to the Spirit, etc – since we are created in His image. “Let US make man (male and female) in OUR image.”

    The problem we are faced with today are groups like SGM that teach gender hierarchy is primeval, and that in order for Christians to demonstrate the transformative effects of Calvary, men must learn to be “men” and women must learn to be “women.” This becomes an essential part of their “gospel” and deviations from their definitions of what they describe as “biblical manhood” or “biblical womanhood” constitutes sin. And the doctrine of the ESS is used to under-gird this system of belief.

    Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain. The ESS is a false foundation. SGM can attempt to recoup their loses and rebuild, but it can never be something God blesses unless they build according to His plan. SGM’s compass is still pointed in the same direction. They blame the ‘gossips’ for all the brouhaha which only makes them look guilty. Because they are. If they wanted to chart a new course, they would need to throw the Mahaney’s out. Unfortunately, the place is full of their clones.

  62. I had heard that the CBMW folks taught that “gender roles” (i.e., male “headship”) would be in place throughout eternity, but I had never read an attempt to justify that opinion before today, when I read the article Amanda linked to above.

    I can’t say I am surprised that CBMW folks would go that far, but I can say it contains a bunch of non sequiturs, and it does nothing to prove the point attempting to be made other than simply declaring what the author feels are the “clear teaching” of the Bible. He just asserts in both the main body of the article and in the footnotes that the complementarian view of gender roles are God’s original design and are His intent for the church today, so they must therefore be His intent for all eternity.

    He also dismisses some of the best egalitarian arguments by stating that they represent a faulty hermeneutic, a favorite way for the spiritual elite to say, in essence, that folks who don’t agree with their interpretations are too ignorant or dumb to understand how to interpret the Bible.

    I can see why they insist that gender hierarchy was part of God’s design in creation before the fall (despite the lack of biblical support for that notion). If they can convince people that this was what God intended all along, then they can convince them that this is what He intends for today.

    I can also see why they have to insist that gender roles are part of God’s plan for eternity. If they concede that there will be no gender roles in heaven, they have to concede that gender roles are not the ideal state. And that would mean, if we expect the church to reflect God’s ideal intent, we shouldn’t accept distinctions in gender roles as part of the church. But they will never accept that idea, as it would mean a loss of power and control over others.

    Just wait — if they haven’t already done so, comp preachers will soon use this same line of reasoning to say that God intends pastors to rule over everyone else in heaven. After all, if God doesn’t expect pastors to have power over the rest of us in heaven, folks might start to ask why is it ok for pastors to rule over the rest of us now. That line of questioning won’t be acceptable, so they will reply that it is part of God’s design that pastors rule over the church on earth, so it must also be His plan for heaven. I hereby coin the term for this strange new doctrine that I see coming: “The Eternal Subordination of the Sheep.” (Trademarked and Copyrighted by Junkster, 2011.)

    While I’m at it, I also hereby Trademark and Copyright the following phrase for the teaching that there will be gender roles in heaven: “The Eternal Subordination of the She.”

  63. Yet another difference between neo-Calvinists and old school Calvinists is that old school Calvinists consider eternal functional subordination in the Trinity to be wrong:

    http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2011/07/functional-subordination.html
    http://branemrys.blogspot.com/2006/03/against-new-subordinationists.html

    As best I can surmise Steve is nowhere near being egalitarian; the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic churches aren’t planning to ordain women as bishops; but all of these seem to broadly agree that eternal functional subordination is a deeply problematic teaching. The best rebuttal is that sending does not imply authority. If a child tells his father “Go see that I’ve cleaned up my room!” and the father goes does that mean the son, by sending the father, has authority over the father because the father decided to go? Nope, not at all.

  64. I want to point out that the OT has language that suggests a hierarchy with woman above man. The word in Genesis that is used to describe Eve as Adam’s “helpmeet” is also used to describe God as the Psalmist’s “helpmeet”. So implied is Eve is to Adam as God is to the Psalmist, and clearly, God is not subordinate or in submission to the Psalmist!!!! But vice versa.

  65. “The best rebuttal is that sending does not imply authority.’

    Correct. But there is so much more. One simple example is how they twist John 5:18. See, the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus BECAUSE He was claiming that He was equal to the Father.

    The whole thing revolves around the Incarnation. Which was 33 years. Who are the three persons of the Trinity in the OT? The Lord of Hosts. The Word which was at the Beginning…

    We must always go back to the One True God that are united in will and work.

    I always point them to Isaiah 9. In that passage, Messiah is described as “Everlasting Father”! In that same passage you also see descriptive words for the Holy Spirit, too.

    Cheryl Schatz has done a yeoman’s work on this subject with a DVD that analyzes everthing the ESS people teach and proves them wrong with scripture. It is an excellent DVD for those who really want to delve into this.

    I have also read Giles’ books which are great but he is mainly focusing on the ESS people’s twisting of the early church fathers and creeds. And they are so subtle, too. They will acutally use Anthanasias as their proof by twisting and editing.

    What is scary is that Cheryl has a ministry
    to the cults of Mormonism and JW for many years and recognized ESS as abherrant doctrine right away. As one of things you must deal with in those cults is the truth of the Trinity because they both do similar “subordinate/hierarchical” things to the Trinity.

    HEre is a link to her DVD which is excellent:

    http://www.mmoutreach.org/trinity.htm

  66. W The Hatchett

    Thank you for the pithy comment. It should be required reading-sending does not imply authority! I never thought of it that before. Thank you for adding that to this discussion.

  67. Lin
    “One simple example is how they twist John 5:18. See, the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus BECAUSE He was claiming that He was equal to the Father.” This is well stated and one that cannot be overemphasized. I think many aberrations of the faith occur because of a basic misunderstanding of the nature of God-especially the Trinity. Go into any well-known evangelical church and ask people to describe the Trinity. You will get unorthodox answers galore. And that is why it is so easy to sneak in ESS. The average pew sitter doesn’t get it.