"We pigs are brainworkers. The whole management and organisation of this farm depend on us. Day and night we are watching over your welfare. It is for YOUR sake that we drink that milk and eat those apples. The importance of keeping the pigs in good health was all too obvious. So it was agreed without further argument that the milk and the windfall apples (and also the main crop of apples when they ripened) should be reserved for the pigs alone."
Amazon link
(All quotes come from George Orwell’s, Animal Farm)
Well, once again, the best-laid plans have been delayed by curious events at SGM. Because TWW believes that the events happening at SGM represent history in the making, we feel obliged to cover events as they happen. We firmly believe that churches, which have ears to hear, can learn much from this debacle. We also believe that readers who are questioning their own church membership can learn to spot some red flags as they watch these events unfold.
I really wish to do a series on how some in the church have a seriously (and I mean seriously) flawed view of mental illness, psychological counseling and psychotropic drugs. I have now been contacted by no less that four people in the past week who have been harmed by the church in its naïve understanding of this complex issue.
I believe that I need at least three posts, perhaps more, to do justice to this sober matter and I do not want to break it up, if at all possible. So, here is what I anticipate. Tomorrow, I want to do a story on pedophilia and Prestonwood Baptist Church in Plano and contrast the response to a church in Mount Airy, North Carolina, that was thrown out of the Baptist Association for calling a woman as pastor.
On Monday, Deb is working on a story about CJ Mahaney and his "mentor" during this period of “soul searching.” If we survive the anticipated onslaught, we will then do the series on the church and mental illness.
One final thought: SGM and Mahaney have been jumping up and down at all the conferences, churches, etc. telling us to look at how they do things. So, we looked…..
************************************
"They had come to a time when no one dared speak his mind, when fierce, growling dogs roamed everywhere, and when you had to watch your comrades torn to pieces after confessing to shocking crimes."
Dear Members of Covenant Life,
Yesterday in the e-mail regarding Mike Bradshaw’s and Brian Chesemore’s resignations, we announced that we would have a members meeting this Saturday. We apologize for any inconvenience, but we’ve decided to change the date of this meeting to next Wednesday, August 17, from 7-9 p.m. in the Auditorium.
We hope this will allow more people to participate. It also gives me more time to prepare; this Saturday was going to be a stretch, as I need to prepare the sermon for Sunday morning. We had previously planned on having Thabiti Anyabwile preach to us. Thank you for your understanding and patience with this change. Here are some of the bigger items we plan to address at the Members Meeting on Wednesday.
1. Ad Hoc Committees: We will give an update on the selection of Ad Hoc Committee Members. Reminder: the deadline for making nominations is August 13. We plan to select 20 people from the names the congregation nominated and present this list to the congregation to affirm.
2. Caring for Victims of Sexual Abuse: We’ll communicate how we’re seeking to reach out to people on the blogs who have shared heartbreaking stories of sexual abuse and also make you aware of our policies and practices.
3. Mike’s and Brian’s Resignations: We’ll seek to answer some common questions to this current situation.
4. C.J. Mahaney Attending Capitol Hill Baptist Church During Leave of Absence: This is a big one and I wanted to share it with you here and talk about it more at the Members Meeting. C.J. and the Sovereign Grace Board have let us know that they think it is best for C.J. and Carolyn to attend Capitol Hill Baptist Church during his leave of absence. In June, when C.J. realized that a leave might be necessary, he began pursuing Mark Dever (pastor of CHBC) about pastoral care and counsel for both himself and Carolyn. He thinks that in addition to continuing the care he is receiving from Mark, it would serve him and his family to worship with Mark’s church during this time. We’re torn over this decision. We understand C.J. wanting to attend where he feels he can best be cared for and best serve his family, but we also have reasons why we think it would be good for him to stay at Covenant Life. C.J. has also expressed concerns and points of disagreement with how we have been leading during this season. He’s communicated a desire to work through these issues with us in the coming months with the help of mediators from Ambassadors of Reconciliation. We are all eager to do this and have told C.J. we’re ready to meet as soon as he’s ready.
5. Improving Our Communication: We’re seeing that we need to grow in effective communication with the church and would like to share ideas and invite your input. We look forward to being with you next Wednesday. Let’s continue to fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). And please keep your pastors in your prayers. We are weak and fallible but filled with hope in God.
On Behalf of the Pastors,
Joshua
****************************************
"It had become usual to give Napoleon the credit for every successful achievement and every stroke of good fortune. You would often hear one hen remark to another, 'Under the guidance of our Leader, Comrade Napoleon, I have laid five eggs in six days'; or two cows, enjoying a drink at the pool, would exclaim, 'Thanks to the leadership of Comrade Napoleon, how excellent this water tastes!'"
There are two matters of particular note. The first is #2 in the letter. This represents a written acknowledgment that the blogs have been effective in communicating the terrible pain that has been experienced by victims of sexual abuse. Any normal, healthy human, who has read even one of those accounts, should be angry at the way these victims were further victimized by the leadership. Also, there were members who sat by and refused to take up their cause. This alone should be cause for a day of repentance on the part of those who knowingly allowed these families to suffer in silence. There is absolutely no excuse for what transpired and those members and pastors who were able to go on with business as usual are, in this bloggers opinion, unfit to be in any position of leadership within SGM. They need to take lessons on compassion since it is patently obvious that something is lacking in their very souls.
However, on a more positive note, please look carefully to see what is being admitted. The blogs are mentioned as the means for bringing the plight of the suffering to the attention of the SGM community. For all its moaning and warning about the “unbiblical” nature of these blogs, SGM has had to humble itself in recognition that this medium did something that they were unwilling to do and that is to give voice to the suffering and abused.
I believe that Jim at SGM Refuge and Kris at SGM Survivors demand our undying gratitude for enduring abuse by leaders and members in SGM who roundly criticized their valiant and truthful efforts. I am convinced that these folks, and the ones who wrote to the blogs sharing their stories, will one day receive a “Well done, my good and faithful servant” from our Lord.
It was these two blogs that opened our eyes at TWW to the abusive neglect of the SGM entity. It caused us to go to pastors and beg them to look into this mess. The response from most pastors was to defend Mahaney and the cabal and to accuse us of participating in character assassination. We now say to those pastors, who we know read this blog, “You are guilty of not caring for the least of these. Hope your little rubbing of shoulders with your good friend, CJ, was worth selling out the truth.”
Harris’ admission regarding the validity of these abuse stories also brings us hope that, in the future, these boys in charge will pull on their big boy pants and act like the men they claim they are. True manhood is found in courageously defending those who have been harmed, not hiding behind the skirts of pretend authority. You must defend those who have been harmed. These are the ones who cannot endorse your books or give you speaking honorariums.
Unfortunately, the boys in charge of SGM, seem to be more interested in acting like Pharisee businessmen, pushing the product of SGM as a snake oil cure for all churches. They appear to have neglected the love and compassion of the Living Christ, who seems to have been relegated to the back pew, while the boys argue about who is “in charge.”
(“Do not imagine, comrades, that leadership is a pleasure. On the contrary, it is a deep and heavy responsibility. No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?”)
Now, onto to the issue #4 in the list. CJ Mahaney, being the big former Head Apostle that he is, finally offers a peek behind the mask and it is not pretty. For the uninitiated, if a pastor was told to step down by the SGM hit men, it was mandated that he must stay in his church and worship like the peasants do. If he refused, he would be pursued to other churches that would be notified that said guy was “under discipline.” It is important to note that many of these men were treated in an unfair manner. One only has to look at the KingsWay church to see a disgusting example of such tactics.
The little people also had to get the approval of the daddy, aka pastor, who was most likely complicit in this dastardly hierarchy, to leave. If they did not act like good girls or boys, their new church would receive a call from SGM, informing them that these rotten people had the temerity to leave without permission. Cue screams of horror and disbelief. This is the SGM version of the hall pass in high school. Unfortunately, many people were treated like children while pastors, acting like bullies in middle school, pretended to be adults.
So, one would assume that old CJ would stay at CLC during this phase of introspection. Not a chance! He has hightailed over to the church of his one of his best buddies, Mark Dever. Oh, said church happens to be Baptist (Capital Hill Baptist Church) and we know how much money Mahaney, not a Baptist, threw at Southern Seminary.
According to comments at the SGM Survivors and Refuge blogs, many apparently believe that CJ must be treated differently because he is, of course, CJ! There are also rumors flying around that he feels he has been treated unfairly. The letters by his sons in law give credence to such a report. Poor CJ…
("Napoleon is always right.")
Now, your humble blog queen finds this special treatment unfathomable. Why? Because, I, too, had a pastor report, to another church, that my husband and I had left his church without his permission whilst involved in a conflict regarding the treatment of boys who had been abused. Such a call was wrong, unfair and abusive. Yet, we bore it well and it led us to understand the pain and suffering of other people who get involved with Napoleonic pastors. But CJ, that humble man who wrote a book to teach us how to be humble, has fled the scene and entered the protective arms of Mark Dever, his good buddy who will console him in his time of trouble. Would it surprise you that my former pastor considered CJ to be a good friend?
("ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.")
So, CJ has decided to forgo the very system that he has set up.This is the saddest part of this saga. I may not like the system he set up, I have often railed against it, but I always thought he believed in his own rules. Unfortunately, he appears to be a hypocrite which gives rise to all sorts of questions about SGM. It is NOT the organization that is portrayed as admirable by groups such as The Gospel Coalition. Are they naïve or complicit? Only time, and their response in this matter, will tell.
CJ has demonstrated that he is above his own rules and his best buddies will make sure that he stays that way. Why? Unfortunately, they, too, must realize that the system is unjust but are too entrenched in the their position in the system to change anything. In the end, CJ is a coward, running from the people in his church, which he said was the “dearest and happiest place on earth.” Guess that was a pretense, as well.
Lydia's Corner: 1 Kings 14:1-15:24 Acts 10:1-23 Psalm 133:1-3 Proverbs 17:7-8
Pingback: The art of the analogy | Civil Commotion
Oooh! Orwell’s the theme for the day. It’s all so fitting.
HowDee, YaAll,
Has C.J. Mahaney gone from golden boy to poster child?
What?
Will they be knock’in on his office door to provide wisdom -those people who want to see the Gospel flourish in their church families; on building strong marriages, confronting domestic violence, reaching out to singles, and more?[1]
Whooooo we!
I’m pretty dog-gone sure theyz gonna be a knock’in, but I hardly think it’s gonna be advise, theyz gonna be look’in for? Answers, more like it…don’t ya think?
Will C.J. still be considered a prominent Christian leader
when all this here blood letting ceases and the dust settles?
huh?
It is the sincerest con-viction of this here writer, that Wayne Grudem may have to take a step back on his 2002 pronouncement, just a weee tad:
“What I see is outward evidence of God’s favor. That’s at the heart of the success of this church,” says Wayne Grudem, a theology professor at Phoenix Seminary in Arizona whose “Systematic Theology” underpins much of the church’s teaching. “I know of churches around the United States who are looking to Sovereign Grace Ministries as an example of the way churches ought to work.” [2]
Might be a safe bet, huh?
Sorry, Wayne, we didn’t know none neither…
I sure know dat proverbial pie in da proverbial face routine ain’t in your job de- scription, mercy me!
We’se all as suuu-prized as you be!
…help me get dis here pie out a ma eye!
hahahahahahaha
Sopy
[1] Pastoral Leadership for Manhood and Womanhood
by Grudem, Wayne, co-editor ;(a contributor to this volume included: * C.J. Mahaney)
http://www.amazon.com/Pastoral-Leadership-Manhood-Womanhood-Foundations/dp/1581344198/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1313107442&sr=8-1
[2] Keeping their eyes on the cross;The Washington Times article, Monday, December 23, 2002;
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2002/dec/23/20021223-111002-4857r/
“abusive neglect?”
I know there’s abuse and I know their neglect but “abusive neglect?”
Possibly this is the latest phrase in the specialized, verbal arsenal of the victim culture. They’ve got you either way. You abused them or you neglected them.
Either way you’re equally guilty.
Orwell indeed.
“We’re seeing that we need to grow in effective communication with the church…”
Puh-leez.
“and would like to share ideas…”
Of course.
“and invite your input. ”
BS
“We look forward to being with you…”
In a pig’s eye.
Seneca
One may neglect one’s appearance, one may neglect one’s garden and one may neglect car servicing and no one is abused. When a pastor actively seeks to quiet any discussion of a pedophile incident and not allow for support of the family, THAT is abusive neglect.
Theo
We are so glad that you decided to serve us with your observation.
Sopy
We would love to use that quote next week. Awesome find. SGM-an example for churches in the US. Wait a minute…we are using it as an example of how NOT to do it.
“One may neglect one’s appearance, one may neglect one’s garden and one may neglect car servicing and no one is abused. When a pastor actively seeks to quiet any discussion of a pedophile incident and not allow for support of the family, THAT is abusive neglect.” Dee
I’m sorry Dee, I really don’t buy that.
EVERYTHING can be defined as abuse under that phraseology. Sen
Seneca
I have a feeling that something happened in your life to make you respond this way. Most people understand that there are people who take advantage of a situation and there are others who are truly victims. Did a person unfairly take advantage of you or a loved one?
Senecas comments regarding victims Reslly bother me. I’m finding it hard to even find a seneca tolerable. Seneca consistently likes to press hard Senecas disgust with victim culture, so much that zseneca fails to realize Senecas hardness of words and lack of true compassion for real victims. It’s interesting that Seneca has such a problem with victims and even truly being co passionate towards them. If zseneca has not been abused, then I winder if zseneca has been an abuser. It reminds me of the many years my father refused to admit that he abused us. It reminds me of how he’d turn it on us and say it was because of our actions that ge disciplined us and treated us tge way he did. He confused abuse and cruelty with parental discipline. He also failed to recognize he was tge real offender and not his children.
I have no more compassion for Seneca and I am disgusted beyond compare at Senecas constant insistence that victims of abuse have some culture or something wrong eith them that bothers Seneca more than actual abusers of innocent people. I can’t ever begin to look for zchrist in a person and find it hard to even believe Seneca has any idea who Christ really is and what his heart really is like. I can barely stand people like Seneca who make me feel repulsed by them.
I apologize as I know that my words are very harsh, indeed. But from someone who suffered abuse from different people since I was a young child, it’s hard for me not to hate people like zseneca who are so heartless and cold. If it weren’t for Christ and the Holy Spurit, I wouldn’t be able to feel sorry and pity for Seneca. Seneca is blind and needs help. God pull this persons scales back and give them a heart of flesh again. I find these comments deplorable.
Gross sin is not limited to SGM:
“Calvary Sued in Child Abuse Cases”
http://phoenixpreacher.net/?p=8554
#2 is classic abuser behavior. Instead of looking at what they did wrong, and how they are going to prevent the abuse from happing again, they try to coerce the abused back into a relationship under the guise of “reaching out” so that they can feel better about themselves and look like the do-good heroes that they are not. It’s all kabuki theatre.
J. Terry
Kabuki Theater? Good one. I sat through a performance once and fell asleep. It is a very long performance. I am beginning to tire of SGM in the same way. It’s time to put up or shut up but I fear they will keep yabbering.
Thad
Interesting timing on this one.I am doing a post on Presontwood Baptist today. Maybe i can stick this in.
NLR
I think it is very important that we face, head on, the Senecas of this world.Your insight to him being abused or being an abuser is logical. There is no question that something has not gone right in his life. Perhaps reading this stories will tweak his conscience.At least he is here, reading. Reading is dangerous if one want to wants to keep a narrow view
Thad
You know, the parallels between SGM and Calvary Chapel are uncanny. I think it is time for us to look at the incredible numbers of complaints of sexual abuse and bizarre authoritarianism inherent in this group. It might help our friends who were hurt at SGM to know that they were not the only ones who fell for a strange group.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. We will look at some of this stuff in depth after the psychology series. I think I am going to need some counseling to deal with the numbers of abusive institutions that call themselves Christian. Good night!
Point: To accuse leadership of a particular SGM church as neglectful abusers because they did not handle, particularly well, a most difficult case of a young man in their congregation and a toddler (remember it all happened outside the church) with various and sundry accusations coming from all side is wrong. I call a foul on Deb/Dee to suggest the leadership engaged in abuse of any kind.
As I recall it WAS referred to legal authorities and as far as I can discern, nothing of legal consequence every happened.
From my own experience, I’ve known people who were stabbed by their mother ( a screwdriver) in the chest; had their toes burned as punishment; abandoned by their Mom at age 3 and various other horrific things. We’re talking SERIOUS abuse.
But to use the loaded work “abuse” on a bunch of elders trying to figure out what to do in a very difficult and tricky case is ridiculous in comparison to life-threatening situations.
It simply cheapens the word “abuse.”
As for me, I’m at least 1/2 crazy, I’ll admit it in a heartbeat.
But I like justice, not cheap shots. Calling the leadership of a particular congregation “neglectful abusers” is, under the circumstances a cheap shot.
And I still don’t know if SGM leadership is corrupt through-out.
Remember, Brent Detwiler was fired by his SGM church. He’s hardly an unbiased observer.
Dee–
I agree. I just can’t deal with Seneca on this blog. I’m beginning to despise him. I’ll let tge more seasoned individuals deal with him. My story is nothing in comparison to these dear sweet babies who have been raped and molested. If this stories can’t change Senecas hard heart; nothing will. I’m almost convinced that his hardness and lack of compassion is evil. I have seen that same evil in my own father–just an absolute denial and a stringent view on what qualifies as abuse. So much more that for my father, abuse had to be sexual in nature. Tge fact that he consistently beat me, my mother and brother up wasn’t abuse to him and we had no right to tell people he abused us. The fact that he constantly berated us, called us names and made us survivors in our home that should have been a safe refuge, he also did not see as abuse.
Seneca fits well in this SGM neo-Reformed mindset, and that is to care a great effing-deal more about authenticity, which is subjective, and not about the truth, compassion and a bleeding grieving heart over all things that surely would grieve God. Senecas god turns a blind eye to mild forms of abuse or as Seneca would say mistakes elders make in trying to “figure out” how to lead a church.
To me, Sebeca isn’t a person that I would allow in my real life. Therefore, Seneca is no longer allowed in this one either. I will skip all further posts posted by Seneca. To listen to and invite those lies and try and reason with this man is a waste of my time. I simply don’t need him, his thoughts or words in my head. It’s atrocious. He should be ashamed–but maybe his heart is just sick and not well.
On Calvary Chapel–
I give you the attagirl and say expose them. This is what I know of them and this is what happened recently to my best friend who is a member along with her husband.
Calvary Chapel, on their website, at least the one on Maryland that I checked, states that they are not a congregational church. The pastor has completely rule and authority over the congregation. All administrative decisions and issues of polity are decided upon by him. Calvary Chapel does not believe in a democratic form of church governance for various reasons. One is in order that pastors aren’t controlled and abused by th members. They see no proof texts that support a democratic and congregational form of church gov in the NT church. he can hire and fire whomever he wishes. There are mo systems of checks and balances, or elders with whom he must consult and make decisions.
Smeone had recommended the church in Upper Marlboro Maryland to me after I left Capitol Hill. I knew this type of pastoral control and power was not scriptural. They do believe in the gifts of th spirit like tongues but encourage people not to use it during congregational worship and corporate services. The message is the same each sunday across the board for all of their churches. I would say they lean more towards a reformed bent than charismatic. I was told their messages were pretty solid.
About two weeks ago, at the Newport News, VA location, the pastor fired several pastors on his staff including a youth minister. And the reason why, pray tell?? Loyalty.
This child of a pastor got mad with a few of his men who had discussed a situation and came to an agreement with someone else that he did not agree on. He found out and fired them all because he didn’t feel they had his back, I.e. They had differing opinions on a secondary and possibly tertiary view of the church. It was so petty thayq my friend and husband confronted him regarding his sin and his mistreatment of his staff. He has tried to explain it away but he did listen. They have noticed various things happening this year thus far that have given them pause. After this situation happened, they had learned In the past several years, this man has turned over his staff several times. His church is like a revolving door and the turnover high. My friends have resigned and are visiting elsewhere. They are upset.
I told them, after hearing all th details (of which I cannot remember entirely at this point and will ask her if you want more) that this guy sounded like a narcissistic sociopath. My friend blew up at me and said I was being flippant to which I paused and slowed down the conversation to a more serious tone. I said look, I know I just said that and threw that out there. She said well, you’ve discussed that with me regarding sov grace and CJ and all. I said well I think you need to stop for a second and hear me out. Here’s what I see and here’s why I say that, and I want to impress upon you my seriousness and extended thought and knowledge about that. This man is controlling an entire congregation of people, he doesn’t deal with dissent or disagreement appropriately, he sees any differences as an assault on him rathe than being able to look at situations objectively.
He has an entire system set up to serve him. He cannot rightfully argue that his staff and others have sinned against God. His complaints and dissatisfaction about them has nothing to do with their gifting or ability to minister, but has to do with personal offense and he wijkd rather turn a church upside down, control everyone, hurt people, sever relationships and destroy his church. Do you not thnk that is extreme narcissism? Do you not think that’s typical sociopathic behavior–his competitiveness to the point he wl destroy the lives of others to get what ge wants and has no remorse.
Sociopaths aren’t all crazed killers. They simply lack a conscience and the things you tell me thus man does and sleeps well at night tell me that he has a personality issue and that he is a textbook sociopath. He goes even further to display such behavior by wooing others back in his good graces yet to abuse them even more, or abuse others and these people are aware of what he has done. How do you think he has gotten the congregation to stay even after such bad behavior? He uses mind games, spiritual abuse, and manipulation.
That’s all I know for now. So glad I listened to the Spiriwt and used discernment and decided not to visit that church.
I would flea that particular Calvary Chapel as fast as my little legs would go.
Personal history note: When I was 10 my 14 year old sister attempted to kill me with MY baseball bat.
While I might not have actually deserved death, I had earned a good beaning by being verbally cruel to a gawky, not yet attractive 14 year old girl who had a potential boyfriend present at the time of my verbal attack.
For both our sakes, thank God she was unsuccessful. Neither she nor I were forced to go to counseling; calling the police was never a consideration and decades later, we do laugh at the incident.
Seneca
I know a real life story that mirrors yours. The brother was seriously injured-head- and the sister became so emotionally unhinged that she requited hospitalization. So, your story ended well. Theirs did not.
NLR
I am shocked by the number of sites on the blogosphere that condemn Calvary Chapel. Where there is smoke, there is fire and so its time for TWW to take a little stroll in the CC graveyard.
Hmmm… You got any recommendations for sites to check out.
Oh and Dee–
Funny that my father would tell us a story of how he was a,most abused by a guy friend of his brother who tried to molest him. The man was not successful. My father, who was my abuser, liked to say “see! I chose not to let that destroy my life. I could have been gay or something.”. He hates gay men. He’s old school ex-military where that was frowned upon. It’s interesting he’d say that when we’d confront hik with how he damaged our lives and victimized us. He still cannot accept that. But ge still tries to explain his almost abuse and his rightful actions. His story ended well too. Unfortunately for me, my mother and my siblings, it did not.
See a common theme here?
The tendency to minimize abuse can also be complex and not directly related to a previous abuse situation. Also consider that the definition of what constitutes psychological abuse or abusive neglect has changed over recent generations. For example, when I trained as a nurse, the DSMIII (criteria for diagnosis of mental health disorders that was ratified and published in 1980) had by then firmly established Borderline Personality Disorder that was related to psychosis somewhat, but it is now classified as a subtype of chronic, complex trauma syndrome which develops in childhood, affecting brain development. In fact, PTSD was a relatively new diagnosis at that time. Previous generations were not trained to identify trauma, nor were they taught the importance or the signs of sexual abuse of children.
The Builder/Worker generation and older Baby Boomers didn’t acknowledge abuse, outside of abject wife and child abuse. Psychological abuse seems silly to those who were raised to be almost recalcitrant and avoidant of these subjects. They didn’t grow up listening to Donague and then Oprah who, among other things, worked to expose abuse. Their parents taught them to keep their heads down and their mouths shut, as these things were private matters and not to be spoken of openly. This generation was also taught to respect authorities like ministers and doctors, at nearly all costs.
Social psychology has now well established that human beings have very predictable behaviors and an inherent tendency to submit to authority. It’s unpleasant to think about. Ministers in particular, because of what people want to believe about the altruistic nature of religious and charitable work, are given a pass and offer a fantastic cover for an abuser. Submission to authority is “hardwired” into us.
But given the responses from our friend Seneca here over the past few weeks, I highly doubt that he would have run from a setting like SGM. He parrots appeal to authority arguments and minimizes real abuse, over and over again. Though not directly addressed, I would suspect that Seneca also would claim that he was not vulnerable to manipulation or the fully-orbed process of spiritual abuse/thought reform that takes place at SGM. And that is the most dangerous of assumptions, because we are all vulnerable when the conditions are right, conditions that SGM capitalizes upon.
It may not necessarily trace back to abuse, but I’d bet that it has more of a tie to a tendency to appeal to authority, which is generally what most good natured people tend to do if they have not suffered exploitation at the hands of an abusive authority figure, particularly a religious one. Mix in there a little denial regarding knowledge of some previous event to avoid a particular pain of the past, and you’ve got a person like Seneca who seems to be unable to resist making snide comments about situations in which they are not involved, and using about every typical primitive emotional defense in the book to counter everything that seems to challenge him. It’s a manipulation tactic. It might all stem back to a knee-jerk response triggered by the logical fallacy of the appeal to authority. Good people do it all the time, and everyone does it at some point or another. It is our nature as people.
Seneca – You write…
“But I like justice, not cheap shots. Calling the leadership of a particular congregation “neglectful abusers” is, under the circumstances a cheap shot.”
personally, I have never met any leadership, of any congregation, that wasn’t abusive.
How about if a definition of “Abuse” is given?
1- treat (a person or an animal) with cruelty or violence.
In this case, often, the “Abused” defends the “Abuser.” Yes?
But many times “Abuse” is subtle, not noticed until pointed out. If the “Abuse” is subtle, is constant, over a long period of time, passed on from one generation to another, people don’t know it as “Abuse.” Yes?
Abuse also means…
2 – use (something) to bad effect, misuse.
3 – use or treat in such a way as to cause damage or harm.
Hmmm? Bad effect? Misuse? Damage? Harm? Subtile? Generations?
No one in the Bible had the “Title” Pastor or the “Title” Reverend and did all the teaching.
What does that do to people after generations of thinking that’s okay?
Depending on, and looking to, a mere fallible human – And NOT looking to Jesus.
In the Bible – There are no spectators watching
Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews.
In the Bible – Everyone participates. Everyone has a living Christ within.
Everyone can hear “the Voice” of the Shepherd, get revelation, and teach one another.
1Co 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,
every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine,
hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
By not allowing “The Body of Christ” to operate under the headship of Jesus whenever you come together. There is a “Bad Effect” and “Misuse” of the gifts that God wants to work through in every believer.
All they do today is sit in the pew.
It’s like locking up a child in a closet. (Would that be “Neglectful Abuse?”)
The child, (believer), gets no exercise. (using spiritual gifts)
The child, (believer), gets no light. (revelation directly from Jesus)
Now that’s “Neglectful Abuse” to me.
In my experience…
Pastor/leader/teacher = exercise authority = lord it over = abuse = always
Jesus loves me this I know… And forgives me all my sin…
Dee,
SGM, (Sovereign Grace Ministries) “an example for churches in the US”?
Ooooo Soooo Not!
Dis liddle light of mine, Ize’ gonna let it shine…
Dis liddle light of mine, Ize’ gonna let it shine…
let it shine, let it shine, let it shine…
(grin)
… et la lumière brilla dans les ténèbres, et les ténèbres comprises il pas!
hahahahahahaha
Sopy
“personally, I have never met any leadership, of any congregation, that wasn’t abusive.”
“In my experience…
Pastor/leader/teacher = exercise authority = lord it over = abuse = always”
So actually it’s not SGM, it’s ALL church leaders that are ultimately abusive.
Interesting to say the least.
Sopy
You crack me up! You definitely march to a different drummer but I catch the beat!
Cindy K, thanks for the psychological analysis of Moi.
Could I get you to forward a copy to my probation officer? It could maybe save me some real money. -:)
Seneca,
By this comment, do you mean to say that you haven’t made rude comments here? Are you saying that you have not challenged the people who comment here (who have had personal difficulties with SGM or affiliated groups/leaders), belittling and insulting their ideas, or characterizing them as bigotted, over reactive, or poorly informed when they communicate a perspective that you do not share? Sometimes that’s hard to take, especially considering that you claim to have no personal connection to or experience with SGM and affiliates.
That’s why people wondered if you’d been abused yourself. I pointed out that just being human like every other member of the human race may be just as much of a contributing factor to explain those comments of yours that others find to be, at best, rude.
“One final thought: SGM and Mahaney have been jumping up and down at all the conferences, churches, etc. telling us to look at how they do things. So, we looked…”
Dee/Deb, I absolutely love this. Oh, how they have been out there in our faces with books, speaking gigs….look at me, look at me!
And we will keep on looking. If you want to be a public figure in the area of of a Christian leader, expect to be watched and analyzed for not only behavior but doctrine, too.
It is where you derive your large income.
I did the Calvary Chapel thing many years ago and got out. And yes NLR is right, they do have a high turnover rate and still manage to stay in the moolah. They have a multi-million dollar nation wide radio empire too. Their model of Church governance is autocratic rule by the head pastor and they swear by it as being 110% scripsheral.
They also have a pastors training facility (no wimminz allowed of course) with an empahasis on new Church plantings nationwide. From what I remember, it would seem that they are quasi-reformed. One of the reformed doctrines thay adhere to is the doctrine of original sin and total depravity, which I think would account for some member’s reticence to leave. After all, Paul sez that in your flesh dwells no good thing and that means gut feelings especially. There is no such thing as guiding gut feelings in this mind set.
“#2 is classic abuser behavior. Instead of looking at what they did wrong, and how they are going to prevent the abuse from happing again, they try to coerce the abused back into a relationship under the guise of “reaching out” so that they can feel better about themselves and look like the do-good heroes that they are not. It’s all kabuki theatre”
I totally agree and will take it one step further. It is a way to USE the victim for damage control to their system. I would caution the victims not to be sucked in. They have had years to be convicted this was bad behavior on their part. In one CLC story, they sent a daughter away from home so the predator father could be the head of the household (their teaching) and not be tempted to molest her anymore. Their focus on gender roles was more important than that young girl’s life and the emotional state of the mom!
These are very sick men who must get out of ministry. But the whole system is sick.
“See a common theme here?”
Yep. Seneca has focused on insulting victims on several blogs now. He was banned from one of them for doing just that.
I was certainly found insufficiently compassionate for SGMrefuge. I think it was the Eagles song, “Get over it” that was the last straw.
They indeed booted me.
Eagle
Thank you sooooo much for your comment. I visited an SGM church around these parts and I saw three women with veils. I received comments that I was lying!!!! These types of churches are all alike.
Seneca
Did you ever think that you might not be handling disagreement in a fashion that brings any sort of understanding of your position? But maybe you like to talk to yourself. That’s OK too.
Lin
I do my best to let everyone comment, no matter silly they sound unless they use foul language or something that could get me sued. I call it Lydia’s rule. Any thoughts if Seneca has crossed the line? Or I could just move his comments and play “Where’s Seneca?” I did that once to a guy named Cooper.
Seneca
I am getting ready to play the game, “Where’s Seneca?” Your comments will not be deleted but they may be moved to another post in our far distant past.
Senecas could be a sociopath. Or maybe the pastor/elder of your local church.
Take a dollop of sarcasm, mix it with evil theology and viola! You have Seneca
dee on Fri, Aug 12 2011 at 06:40 pm
Seneca
“I am getting ready to play the game, “Where’s Seneca?” Your comments will not be deleted but they may be moved to another post in our far distant past.”
Dee, does this mean you’re booting me of comments?
A survivors group I haven’t seen on here before…
http://nolongerquivering.com/
Seneca Griggs on Fri, Aug 12 2011 at 11:11 am
Personal history note: When I was 10 my 14 year old sister attempted to kill me with MY baseball bat
That explains a lot, ackshully. Serious head injury can have life long impacts on cognitive function and personality, I’m told.
Another survivor blog.
More victims?
I don’t believe there is any end in sight.
Seneca
I would never boot you out of the comments. Its just that your comments might get a little more difficult to find but they will still be posted. Are you familiar with the game “Where’s Waldo?” Waldo is always there but he needs to be looked for quite carefully.
Anonymous
We did a story on it. hillary-mcfarland-warns-against-quiverfull
Junkster
It can cause a deficit in the heart as well.Were you around when I played Where’s Cooper’s comments? I am thinking about playing the game again.
J Terry
Never fear. I will swoop in and strike-stating that the game Where’s Seneca” is underway.
Anonymous,
We’ve covered the Quiverfull Movement in previous posts. We have articles posted under the Quiverfull category. Here are just two of them.
Quiverfull+Loss of Faith: On Evangelical Abuse and Legalism
Quivering Daughters – Hillary McFarland Warns Against Quiverfull
As you will see from these posts, we are very familiar with the No Longer Quivering blog.
Seneca,
Perhaps your nickname should be “Clueless” because you obviously have no idea what’s really going on in Christendom. Why don’t you spend some time educating yourself by reading our archives here at TWW instead of just hurling insults.
Dee,
Love your hrperlink! Sorry I didn’t see it before posting my comment.
Deb
Do you remember Where’s Cooper? I think Seneca is getting close.
@Seneca: Are your surprised that there are hurting people in the world? On what basis do you imply that they are lying about or exaggerating their pain? If you wish to be heard or even taken seriously, you must speak in something more than innuendo and implication.
@Eagle & Dee:
Wow! I’d forgotten that at my old Reformed Baptist church there were a couple women who wore head coverings during the services (though not before or after). These patriarchal churches really are all the same!
Cooper,
Oh yes. Wasn’t that moniker the name of a commenter’s dog? Most of you weren’t around when we came under attack from “Cooper”. We even did a blog post about him, right Dee?
Eagle–
I didn’t think you were lying but I did think maybe you were at another church and not Capitol Hill until others chimed in. Yes, I did go there. I resigned in April, I think. Yeah, not many people wear tee shirts and jeans–afterall, it is Capitol Hill. They take it seriously. You will see a seersucker a time or two as well as an Ascott cravate.. I did notice more pearls and cardigans and because of tge constant pressure to not make my brothers (rolls eyes) stumble, I changed my fashion somewhat. It’s hard to hide all that when you’re beautiful, sexy, brown and curvy with a chest. And this is what others say about me, not necessarily how I feel about myself.. I eventually became ashamed of it all and felt that I was ugly and undesirable. My esteem is still trying to recover and I’m still uncomfortable around Christian men–like it’s m fault they struggle and blame me for being a sexual object.
I never saw women with veils and had assumed maybe they were Muslim women THA someone brought to church. But who knows, Eagle, why they were wearing veils. That’s crazy. Maybe it was some SGMers visiting, lol!!
—————————–
Man, the women are going to trip all over themselves trying to be in with Carolyn Mahaneys now that she’ll be there. Connie Dever won’t let them. She’s private and likes her space and doesn’t want to be front and center. Carolyn, on the other hand, will have her share of her groupettes. They already read her blog and freaking Nancy Leigh DeMoss like it’s tge air they breathe. It’s their Joyce Meyers for Reformed women. I can’t stand Nancy and her cookie cutter Christianity. She makes me sick and even more so to have to listen to friends parrot her devotionals all tge time. What makes Nancy think that God wants me to focus on the same passages he’s showing her? Her resolve to issues are generally resignation–NOT faith and I get tired of her crappy advice.
Dee
Senecas snarkiness is all smoke and mirrors. What he fears most is annihilation. TWW gives him meaning and purpose
J Terry
I have a better solution.Banishment makes him think he has won. He’ll be allowed to post, but it won’t go as planned…
NLR
Maybe the people were CJ and his wife!
Bahahaha!! Maybe!
Dee/Deb, I think you should keep Seneca commenting here. I read over the comments again and think Cindy nailed it here:
“But given the responses from our friend Seneca here over the past few weeks, I highly doubt that he would have run from a setting like SGM. He parrots appeal to authority arguments and minimizes real abuse, over and over again. Though not directly addressed, I would suspect that Seneca also would claim that he was not vulnerable to manipulation or the fully-orbed process of spiritual abuse/thought reform that takes place at SGM. And that is the most dangerous of assumptions, because we are all vulnerable when the conditions are right, conditions that SGM capitalizes upon.
It may not necessarily trace back to abuse, but I’d bet that it has more of a tie to a tendency to appeal to authority, which is generally what most good natured people tend to do if they have not suffered exploitation at the hands of an abusive authority figure, particularly a religious one. ”
As I thought about it, this is what I saw from his comments over at refuge and fbcjaxwatchdog. He is, in effect, defending and therefore appealing to authority.
It mirrors my experience of those who were in good with the authorities who abused and used other people. They were constantly making excuses for them but mainly focusing on the red herring of the victims response. In other words, the victims deserved it for whatever reason.
Lin
Thanks for your input. I am loathe to throw people off the blog, even when they sound like jerks. Recently, I had to remove a set of comments due to some liability issues. That was the most number of comments i have removed in a couple of years. before that I had removed a couple of comments for foul language (and I do mean foul) and then removed a comment when someone represented themselves as my husband by using his full name, attempting to embarrass me since we were anonymous at the time. You actually helped me in that situation. Do you remember?
I have received emails from folks telling me I must not allow comments from atheists, agnostics, jerks, etc. But, I want as free flowing a discussion as possible. too many churches stifle discussion, often out of fear. I hope that we can do better here.
I do understand your policy and agree with it. However, I will say it is a bit of a bother to constantly be challenged by the athiests to defend the concept of God when we are discussing specific issues related to Christianity. I wish there were a polite way to bow out of that when personally challenged over and over without them just saying we cannot defend our belief in God. I think I could understand such a challenge on blog posts related to that issue. But thankfully, that has not been an issue of late.
However, I have lots of empathy for athiests looking in from the outside on how some professing Christians behave. Especially the celebrity ones! :o)
I realize the cross will be offensive to many but that does not mean Christian behavior by the celebs should be offensive! Sometime I cringe in seeing that unbelievers are more concerned about protecting children than Christians are because they follow these celebrities and believe whatever they say.
It is quite the conumdrum for us. And why this blog exists. We want all people to know there are Christians out there who strive to walk the walk and do not support the “business” of Christianity.
Another appropriate quote from Animal Farm:
If a window was broken or a drain was blocked up, someone was certain to say that Snowball had come in the night and done it, and when the key of the store-shed was lost, the whole farm was convinced that Snowball had thrown it down the well. Curiously enough, they went on believing this even after the mislaid key was found under a sack of meal.
In this case, the scapegoat Snowball has been replaced by recalcitrant bloggers. All of the ills faced by authoritarian leaders are not the result of their own failures and poor decisions, the real problems are caused by those who would dare to criticize or complain. And no matter how well one makes the case for where the real problem lies, the authoritarians and their blind followers continue to blame the messengers.
Junkster,
As I recall, Snowball started out as one of the leaders, a power that was shared by all of the pigs in the beginning. But Napoleon became threatened by Snowball, so they had to have Squealer generate some propaganda.
Hitler, another iconic control freak to say the least, said that it wasn’t needful to eliminate all of the Jews — some should be kept as something of a reminder of their own importance.
In controlling groups, criticism galvanizes the group, casting it as righteous persecution that validates their position and cause, proving that they’re special. All Christians are equal, but some are more equal than others, too. The outside opposition, from zealous critics or the only slightly removed lesser Christians create opportunities to show off “godly” humility. It’s material that just seems to write itself.
We’re human, and that’s what we tend to do, unless we decide to do that which is better.
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Isaiah 57:16 “For I will not give punishment for ever, or be angry without end…” (Bible in Basic English)
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