Humility does not mean thinking less of yourself than of other people, nor does it mean having a low opinion of your own gifts. It means freedom from thinking about yourself at all. ~William Temple
Storm clouds freefoto.com
What a difference a year makes! Last summer I visited The Gospel Coalition website and watched an interview featured on the main page. James McDonald was interviewing C.J. Mahaney on the following topic: Don’t Use E-mail to Correct Others. The video was uploaded to The Gospel Coalition website over a year ago and can be accessed at this link.
Little did I know when I first watched this video that Mahaney was speaking from LOTS and LOTS of experience! He had been engaging in an e-mail exchange with his colleague Brent Detweiler for YEARS. You can read some of their correspondence that goes back to at least 2004 here.
The Gospel Coalition interview begins with these words from James McDonald:
“O.K. CJ, so I get this comment on my blog the other day. I mean why do I even take comments on my blog? I mean who is this person writing this?”
Not surprisingly, Mahaney responds as follows:
“I would recommend you NOT take comments on your blog, but that’s another issue…”
Yep, so many of the Calvinista leaders DO NOT ALLOW COMMENTS on their blogs. They have all the answers, and they do not need to hear from the sheeple. Just shut up and follow is what the flock is expected to do. To McDonald’s credit, he still allows comments, and hopefully that will not change.
As the interview proceeds, McDonald states:
“Who hasn’t received or given a comment, a piece of input through a blog, through an e-mail that you received from a friend of co-worker. It just seems like we’re writing things down that we should be speaking in person and misunderstanding of where the person’s heart was at. The raw words are not communicating our heart, and it seems to be causing problems.”
C.J. Mahaney then responds:
“I would want to restrain anyone and everyone from using e-mail as a means of communicating correction. I think it is an inadequate means of communication, particularly correction. I think correction should be communicated personally so that I can communicate my care, so if I’m correcting you I want you to be able to study my facial expression. I want to be able to communicate with you personally. I don’t want you looking at a screen and trying to study words that will not be able to carry tone, appropriate tone, hopefully humble tone, and hopefully the tone of care that I can only communicate effectively in person. So I think much difficulty is created by trying to use e-mail as a means of communicating correction, and I think it’s also a convenient way for us to in effect submit to the fear of man. In other words it can be easier for me to communicate with you and correct you through e-mail because I don’t have to meet with you then.”
It certainly appears that Mahaney has serious regrets about having communicated with Detweiler via e-mail. Imagine what he must think a year after this interview was conducted. Toward the end of the video Mahaney warns against the use of corrective e-mail by stating:
“There is every reason to avoid using technology for correction and every reason to correct someone personally.”
The Gospel Coalition video concludes with these words from CJ:
“We all have regrets about e-mails we have sent that have not served the recipient.”
Who did Mahaney have in mind when he made this statement? As this debacle continues to unfold, there is yet another document by Brent Detweiler on the internet. It is entitled Is CJ Above Reproach?
The Gospel Coalition, which was established just a few years ago, has promoted C.J. Mahaney ad nauseum, and it's high time they took some heat for the unacceptable behavior of one of their “stars”. To our knowledge a former Desiring God employee named Justin Taylor, who authors a blog featured on The Gospel Coalition website, is the only one who has spoken out about Mahaney’s fall from grace. Here is what he had to say:
“If I could offer one short word here: information like this can be difficult to process because you’re not sure what to do with it. I think our natural temptation is to speculate and to gossip, which ultimately accomplishes nothing but destruction.”
It’s worth noting that Justin Taylor, who usually allows for comments on his blog, has disabled comments on this particular post.
As for the rest of the Calvinista leaders affiliated with The Gospel Coalition (besides Mohler and Duncan), your silence is deafening!
James MacDonald also interviewed C.J. Mahaney on the topic of “humility”. This video entitled “Grace Through the Humble to the Humble: MacDonald and Mahaney” is featured here on The Gospel Coalition website. However, we have also embedded at the end of this paragraph. It is truly incredible that Mahaney could write a book on humility and speak with such authority on the subject. We wonder how much money he made off Humility book. Take a look if you have the stomach for it.
Lydias Corner: 2 Samuel 19:11-20:13 John 21:1-25 Psalm 120:1-7 Proverbs 16:16-17
Who better to write about the pitfalls and liabilities inherent in robbing a bank, and who better to guide others away from bank robbing than….you guessed it, a bank robber!
C.J is the perfect person to write about humility. 🙂
The real question on whether or not email is a good medium for corrections and counselling has more to do with the motivation than the medium.
Are you shying away from written correspondence for the benefit of the recipient who might not understand how much you care for them or is it for reasons of plausible deniability?
With regard to blog comments, I can see a valid reason not to allow comments, namely, your blog is just to spout off or vent from a soapbox and you’re not looking for debate or differences of opinion.
However I think if your goal is to teach, then you absolutely must allow comments, if not, then by what yardstick can you measure the effectiveness of your teaching? How can you know if people understand you or not, how can you open yourself up for correction if needed, if communications (a poor choice of words) is unidirectional?
(Dee just so much stuff to comment on….)
I disagree that speculation and gossip lead accomplished nothing. That’s only true if you close your ears to it, pretend it’s not out there and encourage everyone else to do the same …. oh wait, that IS what SGM’s been doing.
Well there you have it! If instead that had taken that gossip and speculation to heart, used it to understand how other people perceive the problem (whether accurate or not…remember perception IS reality), then they could have more effectively ministered to those who need it. Instead they tried to shut it out, or decree it out of existence…it may work for a while, but
If you prevent a volcano from venting gas…eventually you get a lot of dead people buried in ash
Karlton,
You’re really on a roll! Thanks for all of your input. Plausible deniability is absolutely right!
In video #2, starting at about 2:30 MacDonald focuses on SGM. C.J. says he doesn’t want to show any “moral superiority when bringing people to God’s Word,” without any “arrogance.”
At the 5:00 mark, C.J. admits, “I’m not a humble man. I’m a proud man; and I’m a proud man, by God’s grace, pursuing humility.”
I’d make some comments on this and what follows on the video, but doing so would likely expose me to charges of pride and arrogance by SGM. =;-D
Oh, get a load of McDonald here dealing with a blogger:
http://kinnon.tv/2011/06/james-macdonald-and-i-in-blog-conversation-sort-of.html
Lin,
Thanks so much for sharing this link. Yes, there has definitely been a lack of discipleship in our churches.
“Yes, there has definitely been a lack of discipleship in our churches.”
For the pastors. :o)
What is up with the “black and white” film? The shaved heads. How Avant Guard. Like a Fellini film.
This is very interesting to watch considering we now know what Mahaney knew when he was speaking here. Brent….Brent….sin sniffing me by email….must make email communication a sin…..
Ah yes, I’ve commented on the McDonalds’ blog before. They don’t take too kindly to criticism, no matter how respectfully it is presented or how much citation it includes.
They’re not above resorting to hyperbole or/and silencing dissenters and shutting down all rebuttal to some of the silly material they produce.
Yeah, according to McDonald “Congregational Polity” is from Satan.
But we find out McDonald lost a congregational vote on aquiring a church he wanted.
These guys are too predictable. We learn to start interpreting their “doctrines” with their “experiences” in mind.
This is likely a redundant message here, but after dealing with types that are masters of circumlocution like CJ has been for decades, you tend to like to have some documentation of matters. If something is said to you and you quote it, suddenly, you’ve misheard or misquoted something critical. I’m amazed at the selective memory of certain ministers, and if it’s not written, it never happened and thus and so was never said.
At least Brent D. can go back to demonstrate that he at least mentioned certain topics to CJ, because if CJ denies having the discussion, no one will believe Brent because they’re conditioned to maintain CJ’s integrity at all costs, even if it requires denial. CJ avoids scrutiny by starting the waterworks and the Joe Cocker impersonations and the scream of the damned or whatever show hedecides to put on as an emotional red herring to get people to forget whatever the heck the matter at had was. It’s easier and less fatiguing to just agree with CJ.
The other good tactic used by folks like CJ is the double bind mingled with emotional blackmail. Though you go to talk to CJ about justice for your molested child and how you were treated like an aggressor and leper in your church, you walk out of the meeting wondering what on earth happened because the focus is always turned back on your own humility and how good of a parent and a parishioner you’ve been. Suddenly, you think that it’s your own fault that your kid was molested. You really are the one “sowing discord among the brethren.
Email is perfect for documenting things when a formal letter is too threatening, and a handwritten note can be lost, discarded or copied/altered. Anyone can go back to read to discern for themselves who is a sheep and who is playing the wolf.
Nice blog post.
Quite interesting why Mahaney would say this now that we know what was going on behind the scenes. In light of the recent information it sure doesn’t look like Mahaney’s motives are pure.
Was MacDonald using hyperbole in his statement about congregational polity?
‘Was MacDonald using hyperbole in his statement about congregational polity’
Does it matter? Especially after viewing the clip of him, in this blog post, pontificating on written communication. :o)
‘ If something is said to you and you quote it, suddenly, you’ve misheard or misquoted something critical. I’m amazed at the selective memory of certain ministers, and if it’s not written, it never happened and thus and so was never said.”
Yes! Happens all the time. In fact, I would think the SGM types would be appalled to see/hear their words coming back to them in this sin sniffing minutia culture. Wait! That happened.
Nothing to see here…move along -Al Mohler, sin investigator
Once again, much ado about communication between Christians that cannot be controlled by the proper authorities = very, very bad things will happen to you.
I’m so sick and tired of being sick and tired over this sick and tired issue, it’s not funny…so I better stop now, lest my written words communicate something in the realm of the adverse correction that was completely unintended.
–pk
Cindy K,
Great comment! I’m gonna have to use “masters of circumlocution” soon, and I’ll be sure to give you full credit.
So glad you brought up the “Scream of the Damned”. Since we have some new readers, I’m recommending they review these two posts from a while back for background. I’m still REALLY MAD that Piper and Mahaney would characterize Jesus’ cry from the cross as a “scream”. The second post below gives my explanation for why this is sensationalism at its worst. Shame on them!
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/02/12/the-scream-of-the-damned-and-the-last-straw/
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/02/11/what%E2%80%99s-wrong-with-%E2%80%9Cliving-the-cross-centered-life%E2%80%9D/
Well, it looks like Dave Harvey and the SGM Board are now “listening”.
Here is an important comment left by “R from FL” on the Sovereign Grace Ministries website seven hours ago. Hope it doesn’t disappear.
I am heartbroken by how some of my brothers and sisters in Christ have been mistreated in SGM.
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/Listening.aspx#disqus_thread
“R from FL
Dave,
In re: “Emails and documents and details are important but they don’t make the same connection as easily.”
In the almost four years since my wife and I left our SGM church, many, many people have contacted us because they wanted to talk about how broken and confused they are because of what they suffered at the hands of SGM leaders. One in particular stands out in my mind at the moment. A young lady called us and asked if she could come over to speak with us. Her reason? She knew we were “safe to talk to” (her words, not mine). She sat at our dining room table and wept because of how her pastors had treated her.
I do not know whether you fully realize this, but the reason so many have chosen emails, letter-writing, and even the dreaded blogs as their forms of communication is that people are terrified of you. Time and time again, when people have gone to SGM pastors, you all have broken these bruised reeds. You have broken confidences, twisted words, and even yelled and screamed. I’ll never forget the last time my wife and I talked to SGM pastors in person: we were screamed at in the middle of a Starbucks patio. Why on earth would anyone choose to come to you in person?
It’s time to stop focusing on the form of the communications and start focusing on their content. You need to listen to what people are saying to you, rather than having Aron Osborne tell MLC that addressing blog criticisms would have been “answering a fool in his folly.” When you stop worrying about how things are said to you (which most of us recognize as an obvious red herring, by the way), and start listening to what is being said, you will realize that the hired hands in SGM have terrorized the flock and caused great grief to their true Shepherd.”
Protestant Knight,
Thanks for your comment on a previous post. It’s been a difficult journey for you and other SGMers who have been hurt. I continue to keep all of you in my prayers. God has been watching, and He is in control.
There is a way to both write a formal letter and have proof of its delivery. Write a formal letter, put it on letterhead or create a letterhead. Print it out. Sign it. Scan or photograph it (newer digital cameras create a great readily read image). Send the email with the letter as an attachment. Send as many CCs and BCCs (people you don’t care whether it is known that they know and people you want to protect) as you think appropriate and to hold the direct recipient accountable for having received it.
Arce wrote:
There is a way to both write a formal letter…
It isn’t so much a concern that you can’t prove that a formal letter or an informal communication was sent — it’s a matter of the awkwardness of any kind of written communication which increases the accountability required on behalf of leadership. These things are threatening.
The average rank and file church member likely never dreams about documentation of anything because they trust their pastor. Brent learned that it was necessary to keep these documents, but only after failed attempts to communicate effectively (or to see results from whatever was communicated). That’s a terrible thing for a parishioner to have to consider. You should not have to get dirt on your pastor.
But you get it. It’s not so much a matter of communicating or even writing something so that the church can’t shut you down. It has more to do with the total lack of accountability and initiative or interest on the part of the leadership. You can have pounds of paper to document, but the real problem is whether your communication can withstand the machine of the damage control, etc….
But, your ideas have probably all been used by all involved at some point. PDI has a history…
Deb,
Lin described this stuff like the Scream quite well some time ago when she called these guys “shock jocks.” They are like the Howard Sterns of Christianity, coming up with some provocative thing to say to keep their names out there and interest in them pumping. There is the damage control, too. The Scream of the Damned was like another shock jock thing.
But these things keep people off balance, and then they can be manipulated. There’s so much emotive speech and body movement, feigned humility, and what a friend of mine calls “timely tears,” the average person can’t cut through the emotional blackmail very well.
It’s always something crazy or shocking or offensive or some new campaign…. It is what leadership in cultic groups use to keep people just a little distracted so that the elephant in the room doesn’t seem so troublesome. It is almost always some overtly emotional appeal, especially with SGM.
It makes you wonder what the next big group attention getter will be, on top of the usual stuff. I get weary of it.
Don
All of us have pride. That is why Jesus came. They use words like pride and arrogance as a smokescreen to prevent others from sharing their views. The outcome of the issues at SGM show just what kind of men they are. Not as prideful or arrogant like the rest of us poor schmucks.
Lin
His group of churches are not unlike SGM. In fact, their are many people with almost identical stories. I think that is why he admires CJ so much. Until recently, CJ was getting away with it!
Lin
Oh, didn’t you get the memos? Pastors have arrived and now tell everyone else what to do in this sort of crowd. This happens supernaturally once you complete OT and NT review. They get to hide their sins and we get to have them thrown in our faces. This occurs after one semester of Greek.
Lin
They are trying to do emergent without the emergent. They come off looking a bit wannabe. “Please, please-I am cool. Look at me and be amazed.”
PssychoTiz
Your name is amusing!
Yeah, they do shepherding for the 2000s. Shepherding has developed the fine art of shutting down opposition by misusing Scripture to support their perspective. Now, we have to get smarter and play their game by their rules. Wait a minute-the blogs are doing just that!
Lin
What is the story about McDonald getting squashed by the congregation? It might make for an interesting blog post.
Cindy K wrote:
“The other good tactic used by folks like CJ is the double bind mingled with emotional blackmail. Though you go to talk to CJ about justice for your molested child and how you were treated like an aggressor and leper in your church, you walk out of the meeting wondering what on earth happened because the focus is always turned back on your own humility and how good of a parent and a parishioner you’ve been. Suddenly, you think that it’s your own fault that your kid was molested. You really are the one “sowing discord among the brethren.”
You described our experience with Fairfax and we have their “summary” to prove it. In the end, we were sinfully craving answers and since they sided with THEIR pastor, we were liars.
Cindy
They say the some things over and over again until people begin to believe it’s in the Bible. That is the value of blogs. We do the same thing-constantly showing the other die over and over again until the people actually have an opposing view to the indoctrination.
Steve
My awesome pastor sys that even on his best days, his motives are mixed. SGM tries to portray the leaders as having pure motives. They don’t and can’t, that is why we have Jesus. It is this very fact that demands strong congregational oversight. The views of the many often more closely ferret out the truth. So, message to Mahaney, Harvey and the boys: your motives are suspect and well they should be. Listen to the opposing views. They are probably telling you something you need to hear.
Lin
Mohler showed zero interest in the many, many people hurt by this ministry. he has sided with the Pharisees and rejected those who have been discarded like garbage. The people at SNAP taught me a very important lesson. no matter where things go, always remember those hurt. That is the one thing that they can’t take away from you. Most people care about the underdog because they are decent human beings. There is precious little decency seen in this conversation by the big boys. There utter lack of concern bout those hurt show that they are NOT following Jesus but following their predecessors in the Pharisaical priesthood.
This is NOR about Mahaney-it is about the people his ministry hurt. And all they care about is poor, poor Mahaney. They have it backwards and so does he.
PK
Never forget, we are functioning under an authority-Jesus Christ. They need to stop taking a Catholic tact and putting themselves between Jesus and us.
Really not trying to be a hit and run poster but my life is very busy. Saw this online and thought it very interesting…someone’s critique of the SGM mess. Actually, I think it’s the best thing I’ve seen written yet.
http://www.chosenforgrace.com/
“What is the story about McDonald getting squashed by the congregation? It might make for an interesting blog post”
http://kinnon.tv/2011/06/the-devils-advocate.html#comment-6a00d8341c8f5e53ef01543301c5be970c
From Shatos link:
“Let me just come right out and say it: this CJ Mahaney thing is a train wreck, is exhibit #42 for why I believe in elder lead churches, and exhibit #476 in defense of cessationism”
So, the main theme this writer comes away with from the depths of this scandal is “elder led” churches and cessationism?
Incredible.
Hebrews, coupled with Jesus’ remarks about leadership, results in a priesthood of ALL BELIEVERS. There is no distinction about disciples as to rank. Which is why congregational governance, by disciples who pray and seek to follow the leadership of the Holy Spirit, will result in the best decisions for that group of disciples. The pastor-government form of mega church is the invention of Satan, not congregational governance. The predominance of excessive financial reward is evidence thereof.
happymom said,
“You described our experience with Fairfax and we have their “summary” to prove it. In the end, we were sinfully craving answers and since they sided with THEIR pastor, we were liars.”
happymom,
The first thing I thought of when I read your comment was Mahaney’s “Cravings and Conflicts” message. Dee and I heard him deliver it in person. I believe he made the rounds delivering this talk at a number of SG churches like he does with most of his messages.
Shato
I have no problem with Certain elder led churches. That is when the plurality of the elders insure against rubber stamping of agendas. Elders must have differing ideas in order to bring a more balanced perspective.
The opposite of this is what happened at a former church. Mr. Authority-lead pastor- confidently announced to us that his elder board had only disagreed with him TWICE in 28 years!! I had to literally bite my cheek in order not to laugh hysterically.
In order to get a plurality, the elders need to be nominated from the congregation by the congregation and not have the old elders present “slate” of proposed elders. They should have term limits and should be known to be able to play devil’s advocate.
What do you want to bet that this is the LAST thing SGM leaders would want? I’ll bet $100 to be donated to SNAP if you want to play.
Arce
You said “The pastor-government form of mega church is the invention of Satan, not congregational governance. The predominance of excessive financial reward is evidence thereof.”
I have been challenged on this point a number of times. There seems to be a trend in America that, if a pastor makes bank, it is because he is a good pastor. Now, all the “up and coming” churches want their pastor to write books and speak at conferences because this proves that the church has a really successful pastor and be default, the church is successful and by default the congregation is successful.
Jesus and his disciples would not be greeted with much enthusiasm by today’s churches. He had no place to lay his head…. what a loser.
“I have no problem with Certain elder led churches. That is when the plurality of the elders insure against rubber stamping of agendas. Elders must have differing ideas in order to bring a more balanced perspective.”
A mistake people make with this “elder led” conclusion is that it is talking administrative in nature. It is about spiritual modeling. Not and elder because they are good at admin or successful in the world. It is about who is the most Christ-like among us.
Even if a church opts for elder led polity. It does not mean that that the budget is not for congregational publication.
Dee: “In order to get a plurality, the elders need to be nominated from the congregation by the congregation and not have the old elders present “slate” of proposed elders. ”
Your suggestion is anathema to Mars Hill Church and the Acts 29 denomination.
I’ve been following posts and comments over at Survivors for some days now, and have to say that some of SGM’s recent attempts to put some spin on blogs, bloggers and blog commenters reminds me of…
Watergate and the Watergate hearings.
Also, someone at SGM is reminding me a great deal of Dickens’ Uriah Heep.
I don’t see anything to make me believe that SGM is worth salvaging. (See some of the more recent comments over at Surviors, where a diligent reader picked up on – and posted – an especially telling extract from the documents leaked by BDetweiler.)
Cannot begin to imagine how people who’ve had so much invested in SGM for so long are feeling right now.
Observer of the Strange said:
“Your suggestion is anathema to Mars Hill Church and the Acts 29 denomination.”
You have it backward. Their failure is why Mars Hill Church and the Acts 29 denomination is anathema to right thinking Christians who understand the Priesthood of each and every Believer.
“There is every reason to avoid using technology for correction and every reason to correct someone personally.”
Seems that Paul didn’t mind correcting folks using the technology of his day (pen and scroll or papyrus). He acknowledged that in person communication was different from written communication (Galatians 4:20, 2 Corinthians 10:10), but he didn’t hesitate to correct folks in writing (and publically at that).
Junkster,
Great point, never even stopped to consider that perspective.
An Interesting view on a Christian blog, here’s a snippet
“Ungodly leaders are terrified of dissent. They use labels against others as a way to put them down, put them in their place, intimidate them, and shame them. “You questioned me. Obviously you are immature and arrogant.” “I see a pattern of anger and a critical spirit that you must repent of.” Such labels heap shame and condemnation on the recipient, rather than offering wise counsel and constructive feedback.”
Complete Link:
http://www.everydaychristian.com/blogs/post/10165/
Thanks for the link. That was excellent. When you look at it from that view these tyrants look very small and petty. And insecure in Christ.
Apparently, SGM isn’t the only church in the news for behaving, well..you decide.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/chuch-sues-block-sundance-hit-212434
Dee,
Found this article on one of your blogpost links. I would love to see you “borrow” it, and put up a poll for people to vote (you’ll understand when you read the article).
http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=7066#comments
Lin
If a church does not publish the budget run . Do not join. There is a problem.
Observer of the strange
That, sir, is the best compliment I have received all week.
Numo
Those who have invested so much time will be invested in trying to obfuscate what has occurred. It is human nature.
Arce
I can only hope that my suggestion causes heart palpitations over at Acts 29.
Junkster
Well said!!!
Bounded Reality
Love the name! The leaders who use this tactic are a bunch of wusses who disguise themselves as third grade bullies.
Bounded Reality
Love it!
Bounded Reality
I enjoyed seeing your blog. Well written. Thank you for linking to our blog. It did make me smile to see us linked on an atheist/agnostic blog. You are truly open minded.
@ Dee: I actually meant people who have invested themselves (their lives, their money, their loyalty) in SGM as members. (I’ve got friends at CLC and at the Fairfax, VA church… wish I could talk them into leaving, but that’s not my “job,” and they won’t see it until they’re ready, you know?)
Dee wrote:
They are trying to do emergent without the emergent. They come off looking a bit wannabe. “Please, please-I am cool. Look at me and be amazed.”
I am glad that I’m not the only stooge who thinks this which makes me no longer a stooge.
I think that Driscoll is big time emergent, and people look at me funny when I describe Douglas Wilson this way (cultic patriarchy/homeschooling Presby who started his own denom to avoid accountability, infrequently mentioned on this blog but appeared a couple of years ago at a “Desiring God” conference, IOW – one of the real wackos).
There is also the hero worship, the indulgences of buying their books, and in some cases, the focus on ritual.
The Calvinistas have their own version of emergent which also includes:
the ecclesiocentricity, the speaking ex cathedra, the “spawn for salvation” message (no BC, many children, marry young), the misogyny, the suggestions of having a male intercessor without coming right out and saying it (code: male covering), etc..
You described our experience with Fairfax and we have their “summary” to prove it. In the end, we were sinfully craving answers and since they sided with THEIR pastor, we were liars.
Happymom, I’m so sorry.
I know that many people went to see our elders for all different kinds of things, but the common factor was always that whatever was being discussed was of great, great importance to the person called to see the elders. No matter what it was, people were treated the same way. I have heard this same thing from more people than I can count from across many different denominations. BUT it is especially hard when your child has been used and wounded in such a way, you get used and wounded, and then you are revictimized. It’s awful.
We have faith that He will make all things right and that we will find value in what has happened to us and our loved ones, and that might be through comforting someone who has suffered something similar in the future. But it doesn’t seem like much consolation when you’re dealing with the hard days of the process of healing and the high price of all the collateral damage. It’s got to be so hard, and what can be said to make it better? I’m sorry, just the same.
(Though some genuine and decent care from a true pastor would help instead of being named as the problem.)
Them shaved heads kinda’ sorta’ look like the coneheads did on the old SNL in the good old dayz of the late 70’s.
Muff
And they come off the same way-humorous without substance-good for a laugh. Do they not realize they are particpating in a parody?
Cindy
We have mentioned Doug Wilson on and off but not as a single post. In medicine, there are markers in the blood that indicate the presence of cancer. Wilson is one of those markers. If he is present, you can bet that weirdness will follow.
You are gonna love Friday. A spoke with a woman from SGM and she has tied up the women’s issues at SGM with the theology into one neat package. This one will raise hackles.
True humility is like that set out in Isaiah 58:1-10, which is about fasting, but it can be read as true worship and humility as well as “true fasting”:
True Fasting
1“Shout it aloud, do not hold back. Raise your voice like a trumpet. Declare to my people their rebellion and to the house of Jacob their sins.
2For day after day they seek me out; they seem eager to know my ways,as if they were a nation that does what is right and has not forsaken the commands of its God. They ask me for just decisions and seem eager for God to come near them.
3‘Why have we fasted,’ they say, ‘and you have not seen it? Why have we humbled ourselves, and you have not noticed?’ “Yet on the day of your fasting, you do as you please and exploit all your workers.
4Your fasting ends in quarreling and strife, and in striking each other with wicked fists. You cannot fast as you do today and expect your voice to be heard on high.
5Is this the kind of fast I have chosen, only a day for a man to humble himself? Is it only for bowing one’s head like a reed and for lying on sackcloth and ashes? Is that what you call a fast, a day acceptable to the Lord?
6“Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?
7Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter— when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
8Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousnessa will go before you, and the glory of the Lord will be your rear guard.
9Then you will call, and the Lord will answer; you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I. “If you do away with the yoke of oppression, with the pointing finger and malicious talk,
10and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday.
RE: ~ Arce @ Wed, Jul 20 2011 at 12:33 pm:
Sounds like left-leaning socialist propaganda to me. Hmm… where’s my chalkboard…
An example of humble person yet a man of God: John Stott
The most consistent theme in the Bible is social justice. Read Matthew 25.
Indeed it is Arce, the previous comment was just another one of Muff’s lame attempts at satirical humor.
Andrew
I have always been a fan.
Arce
I had an interesting conversation two nights ago with someone who was gung ho on the Gospel Coalition. So, I mentioned there was one guy I really admired in that group-David Platt. Well, there was no response. Could it be that he was not excited that Platt encourages people to live sacrificially?
Sometimes, I think a lot of the Calvinistas love to talk theology and kind of forget what, in the end, it is all about.You are so important in this conversation, Arce. You keep us all from forgetting.
I do not like the moniker “Man of God” unless by that you mean every male member of the Priesthood (of all Believers). Application primarily or solely to the paid portion of the Priesthood seems so backward, as those are “Men of Salary”, whereas the volunteers should be considered “Men of God” since that is their total remuneration for what they do for Him — his grace and presence in their life.
Muff
I laughed when I read your reply. Isn’t that the typical answer by many in the church who would prefer to have church as some nice event that helps you appear nice and then you get to go out for lunch afterwards and make business contacts?
Arce
Men of salary?? I love it! Here is an observation that is limited but…Have you ever noticed that pastors of a certain stripe tend to feel called to churches in which their salaries and benefits are better? Can you imagine Mac Brunson getting the call to a little down home church in south Texas where he would make a pittance and minister to a largely immigrant population? Or am I being a bit cynical here?
Realism is not cynicism!!!! Mac Brunson would retire rather than take a small salary.
The games we Christians play in our mimetic dance of power desire.
Dylan
I agree with the mimetic dance of power desire. Well stated!
Arce
Do you think that all these salaried mega guys know how much they each make?
I am not sure they know what they cost their own church. The packages are so complex. In the early ’80s, I was chair of the personnel committee in a modest sized church. We did some research on the packages at similar sized and slightly larger churches. The packages were complex, and now they are even more so, and the mega’s have very, very complex pay packages. Salary is likely less than half. Significant housing allowance (btw, based on the idea that the pastor uses the home to host church meetings and events — like that happens very often any more) that is non taxable. Social Security supplement to offset the self-employment tax. Paid retirement @ 10-20% of salary. Auto allowance (most megas do not use the car for church business. Travel allowance. Paid conference attendance (hotel, meals, airfare, conference fees, if any). Secretarial support for book writing projects, perhaps research and drafting support (junior ministerial staff). Home office remodeling. At least one pastor has a staff person pick up his latte at Starbucks every morning at church expense; others have fancy coffee bars with a barista in the church offices, paid by the church. Book allowance (purchasing their friends books at church expense). Tour support. Executive health insurance coverage, with co-pays and deductibles paid by the church. Paid long-term care coverage. Paid disability coverage with short wait periods and high level of remuneration covered. etc.
@ Arce: gotta say, some of what you mention in your most recent post sounds more like stupid executive perks (thus, corporate America) than anything remotely related to church per se. (Why am I even saying “per se”? Just plain “church” is the point.)
I guess I’m even more upset/annoyed that anyone would actually pay for all those things via offerings and tithes.
Yeah, and then the beat the sheeple over the head at least one Sunday a month about tithing — undesignated, to the church, as “God’s storehouse”, when in fact it is being blown on executive perks.
Security staff that includes a driver for the pastor — forgot that one. Church may actually own the car for his commute with the driver. Of course, at least one mega pastor has a private jet and crew, and others apparently use charters. Do any fly commercial coach?
Arce: “Of course, at least one mega pastor has a private jet and crew, and others apparently use charters. Do any fly commercial coach?”
“Thank you for your interest in having Pastor Mark Driscoll involved in your event. Please be aware of the following guidelines when placing an invitation to Pastor Mark…
• Due to Pastor Mark’s busy schedule whenever possible we prefer that he be able to fly first class so as to work while traveling. If possible we also prefer that a coach ticket be purchased for Pastor Mark to take a male assistant for purposes of remaining ‘above reproach’…”
http://groupsects.wordpress.com/2010/04/23/me-mark-driscoll-me-pastor-me-first-class-you-assistant-you-second-class
/
Anonymous
OK, that’s it. We have been sitting on a Mark Driscoll story due to the goings on at SGM. I’m mad. We do this along with the other next week. I am boiling!!!!!!!! Darn it.
Deb
Did you see anonymous???? Good night!!!
It gets better:
http://www.ultimatejourneys.com/tours/view/9
You just can’t make this stuff up!
And, you only have a few hours left to save $517 !!!
http://only144.com
Sheesh!
and that last link of anon’s actually has a ticker (count-down timer).
I want to believe that Driscoll’s tour and the stipulations about flying are a joke, but… I saw an “application for baptism” on the MH site yesterday, and the 1st question they ask is whether you’re part of MH’s exclusive online social network or not. I wish i was joking about that: https://mhcseattlewa.wufoo.com/forms/baptism-application-ballard-campus/ and http://marshill.com/about/about-the-city and then… http://www.onthecity.org/ – it turns out to be one big marketing ploy for some church-oriented social networking software!!!
here’s their “plans and pricing” page:
http://www.onthecity.org/pricing
(I could go on and on about the questions in that baptism application, but I trust you gorgeous TWW bloggers to handle it. ;))
Do you think CJ might need a personal loan? 😛
Dee,
Is it Friday yet?
Cindy
This is one for you. She did a great job assessing her difficulties with SGM from a woman standpoint.
Anonymous
Does he get to fly first class so he can do the hard job of praying for the trip? Notice, each bus has a “dedicated” Mars HIll pastor who get. Dedicated means that, with your dedicated payments, these pastors fly and travel free. Whooppeeeee! Free food, travel and all they gotta do is show up.
dee said: “Dedicated means that, with your dedicated payments, these pastors fly and travel free. Whooppeeeee! Free food, travel and all they gotta do is show up.”
Pretty much.
That website is a hoot.
Consider this gem:
“The only job of the tour leader/pastor/group organizer is to choose the tour date(s),
the itinerary and most important of all: create and maintain a “buzz” about the tour.
Call or email us today to discuss how easy it can be to get your church’s tour organized!”
http://www.ultimatejourneys.com/lead-a-tour
That’s all the pastor needs to do!
Just “create and maintain a ‘buzz’ about the tour.”
LOL
So how soon can we expect the official Wartburg Watch tour of the Holy places?