Didn’t the SBC decide not to do a database about 3 or 4 years ago? What’s happened recently to cause this to be brought back up?

I thought that the SBC had a fairly articulate basis for not embarking on creating and maintaining a database. I think that LifeWay has published some material related to abuse and LifeWay also promoted background checks and how to do that etc.

If churches start prosecuting abuse when it occurs and being honest and open when they get inquiries about people who are seeking jobs, that will be the biggest thing to stop abuse.

Look at that guy from Bellevue Baptist. Everyone in the SBC knows what he did. He’s a one man database! But my understanding is that some church in West Tennessee just hired him, or someting like that.

I have not had anyone in the public, from people of no religion to people of other religions, say that they think poorly of the SBC because it hasn’t started a database. Folks I have talked to who are not SBC seem to understand the issues, and see how an organization like the SBC might or might not start a database.

I have also seen some pretty good arguments against starting a database.

It’ fine to argue about the merits of a database and whether the SBC should have one.

But I think that making the “database” the big deal misses the point.

I am sure that I won’t change your mind on that issue, but I don’t see that continuing to get worked up over one particular solution to a problem and believing that it works really well and all other solutions don’t, does not seem to be changing any minds or winning any converts.

That’s especially true if the arguments come from former members of churches that are SBC. I am not picking on you for that. Just making the observation that in SBC life the way to advance change is to be in the SBC, attend conventions, make motions etc. I suspect that attempting to influence events from outside has its challenges.

Plus, I am not sure I would trust a group of preachers to run a sophisitcated reporting and archival operation that like!

The database would not have helped here.

This Baptist church is located less than 30 miles away from Bellevue. Warren members get the Memphis newspaper. They watch the Memphis local news. I’m sure many at Warren were aware. Yet, they welcomed Paul Williams and put him in a position of leadership,

BDW:

Thanks for the clarification. I did not realize the connection in the article.

I agree.

There are arguments for a database, but this case is not one of those.

If Williams does something at this church, can you imagine the fallout for that church?

They would have to sell their property, probably.

Even an allegation could force a settlement.

What is this church thinking?

It’s so frustrating to read these comments knowing that almost every issue brought up has been addressed in great detail in the past. I’m just too tired tonight to do the work for the ones whose comments show they haven’t kept up with this very serious issue within the Baptist denomination.
First of all, the SBC VOTED to conduct a study concerning the feasibility and best method of keeping track of not just convicted ministers of sexual abuse but of CREDIBLY accused clergy sexual predators. However, not one dime was allocated for this study. The SBC leadership chose to ignore the motion that had been voted on and then gave some lame statement at the next convention. They never took the first step to study the problem or how to effectively track clergy sexual predators. There are detailed and documented articles on Stop Baptist Predators and on Wade Burleson’s blog. You will find a wealth of information on both Christa Brown’s website and her blog. Being an attorney, an advocate for victims, and a survivor of clergy sexual abuse, you won’t find random opinions and information but hard core facts, time lines, legal documentation, and everything else you need to educated yourself on this very serious problem of clergy abuse and the cover up that has been going on for years.
The last thing needed is for the leaders of the SBC to over see whatever data base or tracking system would be used to protect the innocent and prevent preachers predators from moving down the road or to another city or state. We always wanted an independent panel…please take a few minutes to find the articles laying out very workable suggestions on how this could be accomplished.

To whoever made this statement above: “…. keep in mind, that according to the links given above…the “details” of the moral failure, were never made public and that the accusation of molesting his son,was just that…an accusation on another website…but from what I can see it has no foundation in any facts that I can find on the topic.”
Please pay attention. After going thru that nightmare which opened up old wounds of my own (there were many women like myself b/c PW was a sexual “predator”…a wolf… as well as whatever deviant label you want to give him for what he CONFESSED to Steve Gaines about sexually abusing his young son) Many were re victimized and traumatized by Paul Williams and/or by the way this was so wrongly handled. PLEASE learn one thing.
The “details” and particulars of the way or manner in which a male or female are groomed, molested, raped, sodomized, manipulated, used, damaged, ravaged, traumatized….it is absolutely NONE of your business. A sane decent therapist won’t ask a victim to give the details of their abuse. Why should a victim relive the horror they experienced at the will and control of their abuser for you or anyone else? What is wrong with you? The most ignorant, cold, insensitive thing you can think or say is that….you want details!!!
Newsflash….the perverted, deviant PW sat in his chair of” trust and authority” and asked women to relive their abuse in great detail for him. When he knew he had trampled their boundaries and they were vulnerable and confused he threw in a few questions just for fun….just for the thrill of it…HIS thrill. He wanted to know about their sex lives with their husbands…DETAILS.
He asked with cold empty eyes focused on his prey…. if they had ever had sex with a women, at what age did they have their first sexual experience after what they considered being abused? I can’t write the other questions he had no problems asking. He felt powerful and in control …knowing how to press just the right buttons to disarm and bring victims back to that unsafe place forever etched in their minds and souls. He knew exactly what he was doing.
I tried to warn people in the church 5 years before his son insisted he leave the ministry…. but he was a MINISTER!!! I was only in that office once… his wife had encouraged me to meet with him. This was only to discuss the SS lesson being taught in the single moms class. HOW do you go from living an abundant life as a Christian single mom to discussing inappropriate sexual details??? That’s what perverts and sexual predators do. I was definitely shaken but when he began to tell me I was going to bring my 12 year old son in to “counsel” with him(he gave me dates)…I snapped back into my mommy mode and there was no way that slime was getting near my son.
I make a point of posting articles about clergy sexual predators on my face book. I got hammered when I posted the article about his position as a trustee and his 7 trips to Albania…where his daughter and 4 kids are missionaries. If I were to copy and paste the messages sent to me trying to shame me, telling me what a crummy Christian I was …defending PW….it would hopefully open your eyes to how twisted this whole thing is…and PW is just one of MANY!!!!!
It is a fact that PW’s wife knew what he did to her son. But now I am told that PW is under the “watchful eye” of his wife, daughter, and SIL….to make certain he doesn’t harm any children AND to make sure he stays “above reproach”. I think he fell out of that box a LONG time ago. I was told they have set up strong boundaries to protect the kids in Albania. I was suppose to feel better!!!!

It is a fact that his son has nothing to do with either parent and his 5 kids never see their grand parents. It is a fact that the son was on a morning show this morning explaining that he gives X amount of the profits from his business to help children who have been sexually abused get the help they need. He mentioned on the TV spot that his life had been affected by sexual abuse so it was an important cause to him.

I’m done now. This exhausts me. The information is out there so don’t play dumb and don’t be lazy….do your research and figure out what your problem is that you believe you have the right to know the details of how an innocent trusting child was groomed and molested by his own dad. Research how this kind of abuse from a person who is suppose to protect you alters your life.

Dee and Debbie, if you are interested, I will be happy to send you the recent newspaper article and the morning TV spot…also the condescending messages I received form the “friend” of PW’s daughter.There is so much more to this. SG cared NOTHING about the victim or victims.The “investigation report” was a joke. ALL the son asked was that his dad step down from the ministry and stay away from children.

Sorry this is so long but it is actually only some of the highlights of this horrible ordeal that has forever altered the lives and health of many individuals. SG and the leadership of BBC and the SBC don’t have the least bit of compassion or remorse for those who were harmed. . They stood in the pulpit and lied with total ease.

Karlton,

Before shooting your mouth off WRT something about which you obviously have no knowledge, may I refer you to the following, the official report from the church’s “investigative committee.”

http://www.newbbc.accura.net/Reports.pdf

This was not something that was merely rumored on a “3rd-party website.” Paul Williams admitted his “moral failure” (and the nature thereof) to several people we know of. Elmer Bailey, a former Bellevue staff member, who took Paul’s secrets to his grave. Jamie Fish, who is still on staff and was reprimanded for his silence. To his wife reportedly 3 years after the abuse ended. To a “Christian psychologist” who was counseling both Paul and his son, a clear conflict of interest not to mention that murky “failure to report criminal activity” for approximately 4 years before it came out (by the psychologist’s own admission), and finally about 6 months before it went public, to Steve Gaines himself. It’s unknown how many other people were aware of the situation before it came out, but suffice it to say it wasn’t just a rumor.

We also have firsthand accounts from women who were victims of his behavior. As far as I know he never physically touched any of them, but his behavior with them was, to say the very least, highly inappropriate and harmful.

Like the issue of the “itty bitty fence,” the whole “moral failure” thing has become sort of a running “joke” (there’s nothing funny about it) as those were the words Steve Gaines used when he announced an investigation was going to be conducted into Paul Williams’ behavior. Steve Gaines was the one who whitewashed the true nature of the situation.

Note to the man behind the curtain: Yes, the comments are in reverse order now, and the preview function still doesn’t work.

‘While I have an opinion on specialty databases for sexual predators, I will say that it would be inappropriate in list someone in that database unless they have been legally charged and convicted of a crime.”

The sexual perverts and pedophiles in ministry thank you. They have many victims before they are usually charged and convicted. Gilyard is just one example and even before that, several victims told his church and even the leaders who mentored him. Patterson told the victims they needed at least 3 witnesses before they brought a charge.

I guess I was wrong that believers should have a higher threshold than the law. After all, abortion is legal.
(
The other problem with this thinking is that perverts and pedophiles actually target ministry and churches. Where better to go? After all, if caught, you are forgiven and if anyone talks about it they are hateful, bitter and unforgiving…after you said sorry.

And of course, we know the court is clogged with false accusations. (rolls eyes) Actually, the bigger problem is people actually reporting it. As in Paul Williams, his wife just silently looked the other way while her child was molested. I suppose you think the child is responsible for not reporting it?

I am not for a database because most pastors will circle the wagons as they have been doing for decades to get their friends names off the list. They will say it is “under the blood”. And I would never trust the SBC to keep a serious list of credible accusations. For example, Gilyard, if SBC, would have never made the database of credible accusations even though now he is in prison. Patterson would have kept his name off.

Ministry has become a new law unto itself. Their sins are dealt with differently. Must be that special anointing. The only way to deal with it is to get out of the institutions that call themselves churches and find other true believers to be the Body with. It will not be easy, but it is the only way. I would prefer to err on the side of the children victims.

Will someone please post the church’s web site, so the rest of us can comment to them.

Karlton:

Gaines told the church that Williams had confessed to him (Gaines) that Williams had molested a child. More has been documented of Williams’ inappropriate sexually oriented conversations with women who were victims of abuse. There has been documentation of much of this inappropriate behavior. There is no question of Williams’ behavior, some of which would have been criminal at the time it occurred, but there has, until recently, been a very big problem of the statute of limitations, and there is a lot of discretion on the part of law enforcement and the prosecutors.

BTW, with all the stuff about Wiener not being fit for a political office for texts and tweets and photographs, how, in anything that’s holy, does a CHURCH justify putting Williams in a position of trust and leadership.

Seriously, the man behind the curtain needs to do some tweaking. Please disregard that last sentence fragment. I deleted that when I changed directions and proofread my reply, but it mysteriously reappeared.

What I had started to say was I can pretty much assure you because you’re not a member of WCC you have no voice in this matter. That is, according to Ken Culver.

Notastepfordsheep,

“before shooting my mouth off”…really? What I stated was correct and reasonable given the initial article here and in what I could find on Google…I specifically asked in my comment to please offer any additional information that might be available. I did not see the link that you posted here on the initial article (did I miss it?), nor did I come across it on the web, however I did read it now that you made it available.

Please feel free to keep your snide comments to yourself..they are not appreciated.

Dee,

A while back you made a comment that the example of Jesus forgiving the thief on the cross was evidence that forgiveness, does not imply elimination of consequences…I would ask you to remember also though the woman caught in adultery, where Jesus forgave her, told her to “go and sin no more” but did not insist that she be punished for her past crime…so I’m not so sure about the consequences part.

“A while back you made a comment that the example of Jesus forgiving the thief on the cross was evidence that forgiveness, does not imply elimination of consequences…I would ask you to remember also though the woman caught in adultery, where Jesus forgave her, told her to “go and sin no more” but did not insist that she be punished for her past crime…so I’m not so sure about the consequences part.”.

Karlton, You have missed the point of the parable. Kenneth Bailey, ME Theologian and Scholar really explains it best but jut one tiny point….the woman did not commit adultery alone. So, if they caught her “in adultery” then where was the man?

The Pharisees were trying to trick Jesus with the law. As much as you would like for it to, this parable does not excuse the consequences of sin. But I am reminded we are discussing a pedophile minister so I am wondering where you are coming from. Let us lock up our children from the Karlton’s of the world who defend pedophilia and perverts.

The point of the parble is the Pharisees. The woman was the pawn they used.

You are an athiest, right? Why are you bothering with parables?

“Christians are supposed to be on a higher moral plane than athiests. In fact , James says that “teachers” will be judged more strictly. We should not wait for a conviction….if there is a credbile accusation, the person should step down during any investigation. Schools do this. Why not Christians.”

Good point. A principal in our district was fired immediately because they found dowloaded porn on his computer. He was a good principal, too. But the policy is zero tolerance.

Anonymous,

whoever you might be…

1. I did NOT say that he shouldn’t step down or that he shouldn’t be dismissed…before you comment please actually READ what I bothered to write. I said that adding a person’s name to a database of sexual offenders is inappropriate unless that person has been legally charged and convicted…in fact, it may itself be illegal (I defer to Arce on that point).

2. I also did NOT defend pedophiles…again..please try to actually READ the comment before getting on your soapbox. (see point #1)

3. Christian’s are supposed to be “on a higher moral plane than atheists”..that’s simply laughable and ignorant…

At least you succeeded in making one thing clear…I can now see why you post using the name “Anonymous”!

I admit I don’t know a lot of atheist. The one person I know who is happens to be more respectful to others than many of the church people I know. He also had no questions concerning the PW scandal at BBC. He stood with us and supported us during a very difficult time. He tried to bring reason and fairness when we were attacked on the BBC blog for not being quicker to forgive the sexual predator.
The people in the pews were the ones who got things twisted when it came to compassion. The “unchurched” as we like to call them…and even the uneducated understood that PW and other predators are master manipulators and not to be trusted.

To offer a simple example .. here are some stats on recidivism rates compiled by the Sentencing Guidelines Commission of the State of Washington…you’ll notice that when grouped by offense type, sex offenders would appear to have the lowest of recidivism rates. If that is the case, would you also prevent someone who committed a murder 17 years ago and who had since repented and not murdered anyone else since that time, a place in church ministry?

Let me offer another example or two for thought. It would appear from those statistics that thieves have about a 60% recidivism rate. So would you put someone who embezzled money 17 years ago and who has since repented and not been known to have stolen money since in charge of the church financial office?

Or let’s say the neighbor’s large dog attacked and seriously wounded someone 3 1/2 years ago (converting 17 to dog years), would you feel safe around that dog today?

And how do you know if the hypothetical murderer hasn’t committed murder again? He could have a dozen bodies buried in his back yard and it might not be discovered for years. Or if the embezzler hasn’t embezzled again? Or if the dog hasn’t bitten someone again? Or… if Paul Williams hasn’t molested another child? Because the statistics indicate that a pedophile doesn’t start and stop with one victim. The average pedophile has over 100 victims in his/her lifetime.

And even if there’s “only” a 30% chance a pedophile will victimize someone else, would you want to take that chance? Let’s use some common sense here. The answer to your question isn’t no but HELL NO! Not in a ministry position and never, ever allowed to be unsupervised around children again. No.

While I have an opinion on specialty databases for sexual predators, I will say that it would be inappropriate in list someone in that database unless they have been legally charged and convicted of a crime.

Which is precisely why criminal background checks are not sufficient.

notastepfordsheep,

1. I am not certain…that is not a simple question. I have struggled and given much thought to whether any type of post incarceration database is the right answer. In general I am against it, I feel that if a person serves their time, they deserve a clean slate and an opportunity to get their life back on track (second or third time offenders .. easier decision). Putting them on a national database effectively prevents them from ever getting a job, or re-establishing themselves. Now, that was for the general criminal populace, as for sex offenders, it is more difficult. I am not insensitive to the desire to protect our children, but as stated before, the basis on which we are making these decisions seems to be unsupported by the data. Putting people on a database does nothing or very little in terms of actually protecting anyone, do you seriously believe that someone, dedicated to finding a child to molest is going to be hindered in any way by preventing him getting a job…I think it is an emotional response to a complex situation which doesn’t really provide any level of safety…like checking bags at the airport is supposed to prevent people from committing acts of terror…makes you FEEL safe, but I doubt the reality has changed. I am open to suggestions.

2. You made a statement which is indicative of the types of problem we were discussing. You said that “The average pedophile has over 100 victims in his/her lifetime.”, please send me the supporting data for that statement…hearing it on Fox news doesn’t count.

3. you comment about murderers etc. is actually ironic since Christendom is FILLED with pastors, missionaries and book writers who have, in their past, committed quite a few crimes and now lead good, productive lives (going back as far as the Apostle Paul himself). Christians seem to have the capacity to forgive (and forget) the past sins of pretty much anyone except a sex offender, in spite of recidivism rates…why is that again?

Dee,

I love to read, but could you shorten the cycle a bit and point me in the direction of the stat that supports that statement?

Valarie,

I do not think you are “making them up”, however, that said, there are quit a few reliable source that would seem to indicate that the recidivism rate is NOT what the general populace believes. I would hope that if you have stats to back up a counter position that you would simply provide them so all involved in the discussion can research them and learn. To simply say “there out there” is not enough. Certainly if you believe that your ideas are based on data, then it should be easy to provide that data and not make me wander the web trying to figure out which stats you are basing your position on.

” please send me the supporting data for that statement…hearing it on Fox news doesn’t count. “. :o)

But MSNBC does :o)

“I do not think you are “making them up”, however, that said, there are quit a few reliable source that would seem to indicate that the recidivism rate is NOT what the general populace believes.”

After spending some time googling this, I find the rates are all over the board and broken into many subgroups. Make sure you are taking subgroups into consideration. Pedophiles who molest boys seem to have the most victims. http://www.atsa.com/ppOffenderFacts.html (one example…there is no consensus)

The worst part is finding out when they are finally caught and convicted that there were so many other victims that had to live through the trauma before they were caught.

Anyway, we will let you help the ones that come out of the 10% stats. You can test your grandkids on them.

Anonymous,

I’m not sure of your age, but I guessing maybe 15-16 based on the constant snide comments and personal jabs, think maybe you could respond without them?

karlton, you are the king of ‘snide’.

The “100” number is an estimate by professionals in criminology based on interviews with a particular class of pedophiles and does not apply to all sex offenders.

Keep in mind that possessing pornography gets you on the list to be a registered sex offender (RSO) as does being 18 and having sex with a 16 year old. In most states today, it is statutory rape for a boy one year (or one year and one day) older than a girl under 17 to have sex with her and in some states, just fondling her breast, through or over her clothes can get you a conviction. A stat rape conviction will put you on the RSO list for the rest of your life. The registry varies from state to state and there is also a federal list. It is grossly unfair to think that everyone on the list is a pedophile or rapist.

The number of offenses prior to arrest is a different statistic than a recidivism rate. The latter is the rate of known re-offenses after release from custody, resulting in re-arrest. There is little evidence regarding whether people on the list are more likely or less likely to re-offend. Some believe that those on the list are less likely to re-offend due to surveillance. Because of restrictive laws, some have no place they can live in some parts of the country.

There is at best anecdotal interview data for a few predator sex offenders regarding the number of offenses prior to arrest. The interviewees with the largest number of self-reported offenses were men who targeted pre-pubescent children or young teen boys. There is some suggestion that SOME of the self-reported offenses were bragging, that some smaller number was reported as “hundreds”. At least one warped offender thought that if he reported having gotten away with a large number it would be seen as unfair to penalize him the first time he was caught. But there is also evidence that some of the predators may have been telling the truth about the number of offenses.

In most cases reported to law enforcement, the offender turns out to be known to the family, either a relative, a neighbor of some duration, or a “leader’ in an organization that involves children. The offender stranger is much rarer. (One of the reasons for suspecting the reported high numbers.) If you deduct the kidnapper or home invader, most predation involves grooming the victim (and sometimes the family), which takes time, which is why the offender is known to the family in most instances of reported abuse. Because of the time required, the number of offenses per offender is unlikely to be as large as some media reports suggest.

The cases that make the national media are the prolific predators, who are more likely to be interviewed and studied.

BTW, the terms predator, grooming, etc., can be applied to those who improperly have sexual relations with adults as well, particularly when there is a prior power relationship. Also in another context, they can be applied to the methods of some rapists.

Sorry Arce, those who molest children, even once, should be locked up forever. I am astonished at the cavilier attitude toward these innocent victims. And please, enough about 16 yr olds having sex with 18 yr olds. we get it. that is not what we are talking about.

“Sorry Arce, those who molest children, even once, should be locked up forever.”

That comment sums up this whole comment thread for me. Karlton and Arce are trying to have an intelligent discussion about this serious issue, and every response to them is less helpful than the one before. There hasn’t been a single, direct, and thoughtful response to Karlton regarding the issue of creating a database made up of folks who MAY OR MAY NOT BE GUILTY. Does anyone else see that a flippant response to that problem is ridiculous?

Then Arce posts a helpful perspective and some good thoughts..and Arce gets the response above. Folks, this is obviously a sensitive issue…but lets be reasonable.

David,

Sorry that you feel that way. I was sexually abused as a child on 4 different occasions by 4 different people and I can recall each incident quite clearly. Don’t you dare presume to tell me that I have a very shallow understanding of the problem…keep your arrogant, unfounded, self-righteous attitude to yourself please.

Secondly I never accused anyone of acting out of pain..I said they were making an emotional decision, there is a difference.

Lastly, you may not be in the forgiving business, but if you are a Christian you certainly should be.
Colassians 3:13 “Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.”…good advice regardless of your beliefs.

Joey,

Thank-you, I was beginning to think all was lost in trying to have a reasonable discussion.

“Secondly I never accused anyone of acting out of pain..I said they were making an emotional decision, there is a difference”

Oh brother!

Every word you write is “emotional”.

the decision to use Zyclon in the gas chambers was emotional even though much science and experimentation went into it. The most cold caluclating Nazi was acting on emotion.

Accusing folks of “emotion” is the last refuge of a scoundral since we are “emotional” beings. Even the most stoic scientist is “emotional”. The difference is how that emotion is presented.

I would suggest you, Arce and Joey, present your stats to the 8 year old boy who was molested. Also tell him how mean it is to want the pervert locked up forever.

Of course, I do not believe for one moment you were molested. Funny how that came up last. Athiest do not exactly have an ethic of truth. After all, there is no punishment for liars.

“Whether we like it or not, criminals are human beings as well. If we profess a love for humanity we must strive to do what is best for all. Most of you seem to think I am some kind of monster because you think I am putting the welfare of sex offenders above that of children. Nothing could be further from the truth.

But we must act with compassion toward all, bounded by reason, if we wish to claim any love of man. The sense I get on this blog is that most want to simply lock up sex offenders and throw away the key and let them rot for life in prison.’

Let’s see. ADULT molesting CHILD. The most vulnerable and defenseless of our society. They only have ADULTS to protect them. They are totally at the mercy of adults.

And you think it is “unreasonable” to lock up the perverts raping children. . That is not showing “love” to children.

“Don’t you dare presume to tell me that I have a very shallow understanding of the problem…keep your arrogant, unfounded, self-righteous attitude to yourself please.”

No one on this blog is more arrogant and self righteous than Karlton!

I can attest to what Anonymous is trying to communicate. A friend of mine had a 7 year old son molested at church. He did not tell his parents but told his older sister.

Then the parents called the police. And the real interesting stuff started to happen. The church rushed to “help” the molester and stand by him because he was so sorry for what he did. The child was pretty much forgotten by the church family. In fact, many acted as ihe child ruined their pure church by allowing this to happen.

The parents were shocked at how this all fell into place. Many people were demanding they forgive the molester and not ruin his life by pressing charges since no penetration occured. (The parents figured there was not enough time or there would have been)

How do explain this to the 7 year old? He is caught in the middle. How to explain to him that he is precious, valuable, when so many adults whom he trusted for his spiritual health, are now acting as if he isn’t? They are acting as if the molester was more valuable. The parents told me this opened up a whole other topic that was much to big for a 7 year old as in why adults can be so wrong about something so important.

And I wonder how many other kids would dare tell about the same thing when they saw how the 7 year old was treated when he was violated. Our “responses” carry a lot of weight, both with adults and especially with other children. Children are not stupid, they pick up on a lot.

Karlton,

I don’t what to say, other than I am sorry that it seems my fellow believers cannot approach this discussion rationally, nor do they seem to want to. Before I get back to the issue of creating a database (which I want to do)…let me say a couple things…which I am sure you know, but just to confirm:

1. Despite what folks here are saying, you are right…Christians are called to forgive without exception. I can even forgive someone without assuming that they will never commit that sin again, since MY FORGIVENESS IS NOT CONDITIONED ON THEIR GENUINE REPENTANCE. Jesus taught (a) love your enemies (b) forgive your brother 70×7 times…in other words, an unfair amount of times… and (c) show mercy as you have been shown mercy…and the mercy we have been shown is infinite mercy, since we have since against God. This leaves no room the perspective that there are sins that are too great for us to show compassion and forgiveness towards the sinner.

2. Obviously this does not mean that the state is not fully justified to prosecute criminals, or punish evildoers, or that Christians cannot participate in that process. Christians can follow Christ’s command to forgive without that forgiveness condoning or supporting the sin. I can have compassion towards a rapist while still firmly believing they should be locked away. I can have compassion on a murderer while respecting the state’s responsibility to sentence them to death. Etc.

3. Just because you are an atheist, I have no reason to suspect you of lying about horrific events in your past, and I am sorry that others here do. I expect that anonymous is having a bad day.

4. Your appeal to statistics and facts and call for reasonable dialogue is not a defense of pedophiles, and others accusations along those lines about you are simply ad hominem and discredit the folks making those statements.

So now that we have that out of the way…what would your thoughts be about creating a database where folks who had been accused, and their was documented evidence to support the accusation (such as a confession) even if there was no conviction in a court of law? Then churches would have criminal databases plus a database of folks who are guilty but had never been prosecuted (which happens at times for various reasons, especially in cases where its within a family).

1. Despite what folks here are saying, you are right…Christians are called to forgive without exception. I can even forgive someone without assuming that they will never commit that sin again, since MY FORGIVENESS IS NOT CONDITIONED ON THEIR GENUINE REPENTANCE. Jesus taught (a) love your enemies (b) forgive your brother 70×7 times…in other words, an unfair amount of times… and (c) show mercy as you have been shown mercy…and the mercy we have been shown is infinite mercy, since we have since against God. This leaves no room the perspective that there are sins that are too great for us to show compassion and forgiveness towards the sinner.”

Joey, If this is true, then why didn’t Paul advise their forgivness toward the guy in 1 Corin 5? or why didn’t Paul communicate his forgivlness of Hy and Al in 1 Tim 1? Or how about John? Why didn’t he write Gaius and tell him to forgive Diotrepehes? Instead, he said he would deal with him later.

There are other exampes but you have a very immature, simplistic understanding of forgiveness as most Christians do. In fact, there is no forgivness from Christ without repentence. I know that is not taught much in this shallow Christian world, but it is true. And that repentance is continual because we have the Holy Spirit who convicts of us sin continually if we are true believers. (Hebrews 10:26-31 and ALL of 1 John are instructive here)

Forgiveness is when we give up what we think is our right to revenge for wrong doing against us. This does not mean we ignore criminal acts or that we do not help the civil authorities when investigating evil. We do not put forgiveness up against protecting the “least of these”. in fact, we enable evil when we do so. Which is exactly what you all are advocating but I doubt you can see it. So, you resort to using forgiveness as a club to beat people with. Funny how the atheist uses scripture as a club here.

You are using forgiveness as a club to beat people with and do not understand it at all. but the molester at church loves you for it.

Please study this topic in CONTEXT. Forgiveness does not always mean restoration. Nor does it always mean reconciliation or even fellowship. WE can forgive the embezzler but we still send him to prison. We can forgive the bank robber but we still send him to prison.

We can forgive the molester from behind bars so as to protect the little ones who did not deserve it. I just wish more adults were concerned about them as much as they are the perverts.

Joey,et al

When your child looks at you and says he is sorry, do you always assume he is sorry? You assess the sincerity of his apology and will occ wait until he is truly repentant. There are slot of people who can mouth a mea culpable but we can know if they really mean it, at least on some occasions.

Jesus did not forgive everybody unless you are a universalist. One must ask, sincerely, for Jesus’ forgiveness else one is like the Mafioso who were good churchgoers and then went out and killed again.

Also, I cannot forgive a pedophile who harmed a child that I do not know. The apology and restitution must be directed towards the child and parents.

Way too many Christians play games with the forgiveness business. It is serious stuff. Lots of criminals cry crocodile tears when caught but. For many,it is just that. They got caught.

A real pedophile would demonstrate the depth of their repentance by taking on actions that show some semblance of understanding. They would not delberately expose themselves to children or purposely move into an apartment next to a playground like on chuch pedophile has done in our area.

I am an opponent of cheap apologies just as I am about cheap grace. When Christ calls a man he bids him come and die- not come and party.

Joey,

First, I agree 100% with everything you just wrote…no arguments from me.

To the database issue…I understand the desire to have one, but there are several points of concern that I have..

1. Even private database systems must comply with FCRA requirements on pre-employment screening, will churches comply with these Federal regulations?

2. Upkeep and correctness: There are many reasons why even people convicted of offenses in the court system might need to have their names removed from a private database of information..including, but not limited to: a deferred adjudication, expungement, a judges order that records be sealed or some sort of judicial set aside under state law.

3. The most difficult part of this process is that now we are asking to go one step further. Virtually all private databases are at least based on public court records. Now we want to add people to a database based on accusation, confession or because someone else has them in their database, even though they have never been tried by the legal system, that seems contrary to everything this country was built on as a country of laws. I cannot even begin to imagine what type of legal problems can arise from that. Arce,
chime in any time.

What you are really doing is repeating the worst parts of American history, the times like Red scare of the 1940’s and 50′ when a simple “accusation” was sufficient to be blacklisted and investigated by the House Committee on Un-American Activities, or, if you prefer the witch hunts where simply being accused was sufficient cause to be burned at the stake, or the Japanese-Americans during WWII who were incarcerated for no other reason than being of Japanese descent.

I am all in favor of sending offenders to prison, I have never said otherwise, and I also believe that our children need to be protected, but I believe that those things must happen within the context of the legal system and for private citizens to create databases of sex offenders based on accusation is to effectively undermine the very society we are trying to create. No one says it is an easy decision to make, and no one wants a sex offender to “get away” with their crime, but there are laws for a reason and they need to be followed.

“1. Even private database systems must comply with FCRA requirements on pre-employment screening, will churches comply with these Federal regulations?”

Not true. Churches are even exempt from all Labor laws. The SBC could have a database of credible accusations and get by with it. You would not believe what churches can get by with. They have special status.

“3. The most difficult part of this process is that now we are asking to go one step further. Virtually all private databases are at least based on public court records. Now we want to add people to a database based on accusation, confession or because someone else has them in their database, even though they have never been tried by the legal system, that seems contrary to everything this country was built on as a country of laws. I cannot even begin to imagine what type of legal problems can arise from that. Arce,
chime in any time.”

You are equating the church with the state. That is like saying a pastor can sue because he was not hired due to an allegation. He can sue, but the court will throw it out.

Dr. Klouda tried this when she was fired from SWBTS for being a woman teaching Hebrew to men. SWBTS said they were a “church” and the judge threw out the case.

“Jesus did not forgive everybody unless you are a universalist.” – Dee

Jesus offers forgiveness to any and all. Whether they accept that offer is, of course, up to them. But he does not require payment on their part for their sins before extending the offer of forgiveness. Nor should we.

“Also, I cannot forgive a pedophile who harmed a child that I do not know. The apology and restitution must be directed towards the child and parents.”

This is true to a large degree, but in the context of church, if someone wishes to be restored to the church after committing this type of sin, then there is a type of forgiveness that is required on the churches part to allow that. The sin was primarily against God. the victim and his/her family, but if the offender is a church member, then it was also secondarily a sin against the church. It brings reproach on the body. And we can either forgive him for this or not. I would argue we must (if he doesn’t want it then its a non-issue of sorts). Again, this doesn’t mean pretending it didn’t happen, not being in favor of prosecuting etc. The examples you give where the perp is treated better than the victim, or prosecution was discouraged…that is completely wrong, and mind boggling.

The concept of Christian forgiveness IS scandalous. Turning the other cheek, loving your enemy, showing undeserved mercy…it isn’t cheap, its marvelous. I understand the concern that we are opening ourselves to attacks from within by the worst of the worst…but the solution is not to toss out Christian forgiveness. Naivety is one thing…the church trying to play the state is one thing…those issues need to be dealt with…but lets not throw out forgiveness, compassion, and charity in the mean time.

Karlton, I will think about it…but I am inclined to completely agree with you.

Joey,

Excellent comment! I’d like to add, that atheists as well as theists can and do practice this type of forgiveness, it is not unique to the Church…it is a decision of consciously acting in a way that produces the type of society in which we want to live.

I hold no anger or desire for vengeance against the people for molesting me when I was young. I certainly wish it hadn’t happened, but I like to think I am as concerned for their well being and recovery as I am for my own…and again, I would want the same compassion if the tables had been reversed.

Karl

The creation of such a database only serves to warn churches of the potential for trouble. The church can then do a more careful investigation instead of merrily appointing pedophiles to positions of trust.

just got off the phone with the Federal Trade Commission (also FCRA) office of the general counsel and was told, that

A.) A church IS required to follow FCRA regulations regarding pre-employment notification (no exceptions)

B.) It would be illegal to use a database which is NOT based on court records (i.e. one based on accusation, inference, or confession) for pre-employment screening purposes and they “strongly” advised anyone planning to do so to consult with an attorney first.

Guess that answers the question for now.”

What exactly did you expect the Feds to say?

Let me put it to you this way, if the SBC wanted to start an internal database of women known to teach men, they could legally. And then churches could check on women before they hired them.

Anyone can sue. But it would most likely be thrown out of court as most of these cases are when it involves a church. They can do the same using an internal database of suspected perverts applying for jobs.

As someone who has a family member who is an attorney that has mostly mega church clients, I know what I am talking about. They juggle about 5-7 lawsuits at all times. And nothing comes of any of them except to harass the church. I agree they should be harassed but I am telling you that you do not understand the relationship of the law to the church.

About the only thing the gov can do to really harass them is when it comes to zoning stuff. Otherwise, they get by with tons of stuff that would blow your mind when it comes to hiring, firing and operating.

Anyone interested in seeing the TV interview of the up and going Salesman.

Is it any wonder how the father was so good at Financial Matters

http://www.wreg.com/videobeta/bfecfd88-af42-4cc6-b7d8-3f8ea306bea7/Entertainment/From-SUV-to-Scooter-Chris-Williams

“I have represented the mother of a 4 year old little girl who was raped by and forced to do oral sex on a 12 year old boy. Would you lock a 12 year old up for life? He does need therapy, counseling, and a lot of watchful eyes, and if it happened again at age 17 or older, then, yes, toss the key away.”

What about the 4 year old?

–Deleted by request–

He is not free. He has been sent to a juvenile incarceration and treatment facility, and will be there until the therapists believe he no longer presents a risk to other children. It is not in their professional interest to underestimate that risk, and the rules are pretty strict. If he is released before 18 y/o, he will be monitored. If he is considered to still present an unacceptable risk to other children, he can be kept in the juvenile system until 21 or, depending on the specifics of the court adjudication, he may can be transferred to adult prison and treatment facilities. It is not a system designed primarily around the rights of the juvenile perpetrator, but it is designed to rehabilitate and if successful, return the offender to society with oversight.

Guest 45,
You appear to be a complete jerk.Why did you feel the need to post that link? Post all you want about the minister who confessed to being a sexual pervert yet he is considered worthy to work around children in Albania and to serve as a trustee for another church.

“Is it any wonder how the father was so good at Financial Matters”

What the heck does your asinine comment even mean? Are you helping or encouraging this young man in any way at all?? Do you think your stupid remark will help him build his business so he will be better able to support his family?? I get so sick of people like you (and there are way too many of you) who NEVER give a thought to showing respect or compassion for people who have been wounded to their core and yet they get up and try their best to live a normal life and make a better life for their families.

Do you enjoy the pain of those who have been degraded and betrayed by the very person who should be the safest person in their lives. Focus on the piece of crap who is probably grooming kids in Albania and who arrogantly sits on the board of trustees at some stupid church 30 minutes from the church where he confessed to being a child abusers. You posted that for no good reason. You obviously are as compassionate as Steve Gaines and the other redneck brutes at BBC were. I regret discussing this horrible traumatic issue on this blog. Here is a clue for you …..decent people protect those who have been wounded not mock them….we expose and the sexual predators for the damage they’ve done.

Dee and Deb,
I apologize for sounding like I was blaming you. I understand your position and your mission on this blog. I have been reading for a long time.
In one of my comments I mentioned this young man had been on TV advertising his business. Right after that I knew there was no good purpose in exposing him during this discussion. We want to expose the preacher predators and the ministers who cover for them. Unless we can do something positive to help victims of clergy abuse we certainly shouldn’t do anything that could be harmful.

I copied and pasted the statement made by Guest 45 and asked 3 of my friends if they knew what it could possibly be implying and none could figure it out. One thought maybe he was implying they both knew how to make money…but that was long shot and pretty lame.
If you are going to be so insensitive and make a pointless remark, (Don’t) at least be articulate about your purpose. I think it was just a thoughtless way to be mean. So Guest 45…you really stink IMO.
Dee and Deb…we’re cool and thank you.

Christa

Amen and amen! Thank you for your dedication to this sin in the SBC

Christa,

I appreciate what you said, and I am with you that we need to protect children, but I am still adamantly against any type of database that goes beyond reporting “convicted” felons to reporting those who have only been “accused”, regardless of how credibly.

This is the price that must be paid to live in a nation where people are considered innocent until proven guilty and are not considered or treated as though guilty before being tried by a jury. It is just like free speech, sometimes, in order to protect the ideals of freedom of speech you have to support the right of some people to say some pretty offensive things. In the same way, to ensure the concept of innocent until proven guilty, sometimes others must be put in harms way. It’s not that we want it that way, but it’s the price that sometimes must be paid.

That said, I think there is much that can still be done to protect children, many changes that could be made both inside the churches and in the legal system and they can be done without sacrificing or looking the other way while the freedom of others, not proven guilty in a court of law, is trodden underfoot.

Even if we could lock up every accused offender on the planet, there are still, sadly, many out there who would prey on a child that we know nothing about.

Let’s focus on the the things that we can do to provide more protection for children both from the predators we know and even more importantly from those we don’t.

1. Children should always be with more than one person (Church’s should “legislate” this for their employees), not only in classes, but when being counseled, etc.
2. Infant or child care, should always be done again in pairs (or more). If a child need to be accompanied to a bathroom, again more than 1 adult should go.
3. All church workers should undergo a criminal background check
4. These policies should be PUBLISHED PUBLICLY for all to read and understand.
5. Awareness classes could and should also be taught in Churches, right along with Bible study
6. Most importantly, the importance of awareness, the policies that protect children, etc. should be preached from the pulpit now and then.
7. The church’s (esp. mega churches) should use some of that money to hire professional abuse and child counselors to come in on a weekly basis and be able to spend time with children in the church who have experienced abuse in the past, they should be praised and encouraged, not shunned and made to feel ashamed in order to protect the “reputation” of the church.
8. Parents of abused children should also be free to partake and use the services of the professionals hired by the church.
9. Most importantly, parents AND children should receive EXPLICIT instructions on what to do in case ANYTHING happens which seems counter to what is appropriate. They should have names and numbers of caring, trained church members to contact and they should be made to feel that contact of these people is ENCOURAGED and that not only will their concerns be taken with the utmost gravity, but they themselves will be embraced even more by the church and other church members. They should NEVER feel the slightest sense of shame, fear, intimidation or alienation.

I disagree with the church hiring the counselors. If a church employee or member was the abuser, then the church should PAY for the counseling with the counselor chosen by the parents from outside the organization. Otherwise the counselor is in a position of conflict of interest and cannot be a credible witness nor an independent adviser to the family.

‘This is the price that must be paid to live in a nation where people are considered innocent until proven guilty and are not considered or treated as though guilty before being tried by a jury.”

This means pedophiles in churches have a free ride! Never mind 1 Corin 5. Now, if they had been accused in a pubic school, their “rights” go out the window.

Have the Baptist advocate groups (against sexual exploitation of children & coverups by the “redneck cronies”) taken these cases to the media? Public shaming & hitting them in the pocketbook (via civil lawsuits) is about the only thing that will shake the foundations of such ongoing harmful wickedness (the “sweep it under the rug” mentality is, I dare say, as painful to the abused, if not moreso, than the abuse itself).

See how one man who took a stand in another “religious” group** ended up with over two dozen mainstream media documentaries being produced & aired; not to mention the ensuing lawsuits:
http://silentlambs.org/historyofsl.htm Very inspiring for victim-survivors everywhere.

What you will see is that the “redneck cronies” mentality (or I should say “Purposeful Modus Operandi”) is exactly the same as what is described in these SBC blog articles. The “men in positions” (no matter which “religion”) seem to only care about “appearances” & the almighty dollar bottom-line than in protecting children. And all followers or church members who cry “touch not thine anointed” & rally behind the secrecy & coverups & blame the victims are deaf, blind, dumb & deceived beyond belief & only pour salt in the wounds of the affected victims & their families. This willful, wanton ignorance on the part of the “flocks” & the manipulations by “leaders” to keep abuse under wraps are both inexcusable. Keep speaking out against all odds, shout it from the rooftops.

On another note: Make it a habit to start asking every preacher, minister, pastor, deacon, etc. if they are a Freemason. Ask them to their face. The “secrecy” mentality is the Masonic hallmark. They also take oaths to protect (“lie” & coverup) any crimes of other members of their “brotherhood.” There is enough research on the net of Masonic infiltration & strangleholds in churches, SBC not excepted. Visit the Freemasonry Corner at CuttingEdge.org or sites like Ex-Masons for Jesus, etc. for more info (the “mystery of iniquity” that was already on the scene is Paul’s day is the medusa of Egyptian/Babylonian “mystery religions” of which the Masons & other Luciferian societies are based & which are actively working to destroy Christianity from the inside-out).

**This comment is in no way, shape, or form an endorsement of that “religion,” but only offered as inspiration for advocates & survivors of childhood sex abuse everywhere, myself included, as to what one determined person can accomplish. Thank you.