“Every one says forgiveness is a lovely idea, until they have something to forgive.” CS Lewis
Recently, Joshua Harris apologized for some issues which have plagued Sovereign Grace Ministries for years. My husband just received an apology from a church elder who had spread a rumor that our marriage was in trouble. I also know a woman who apologized to an ex-husband for leaving their marriage years ago. Each of these incidents illuminate the complex issue of forgiveness. I think a good rabbinical story is in order. I have heard this story told on a number of occasions and do not know its origination.
A man visited his rabbi to confess that he had spread a lie about his neighbors. He asked what he should do to rectify the situation. The wise rabbi understood that this man needed to apprehend the gravity of his action. So, he asked the man to meet him at the top of a windy hill in the town. Once there, the rabbi handed him a feather pillow and scissors and told him to cut open the pillow. Once open, the rabbi told him to shake out the entire feather stuffing. The feathers flew everywhere in the wind. The man asked what this had to do with his lie. The rabbi looked at him sternly and said to go and collect all the feathers. The man finally understood the problem. One can apologize but how does one collect all the “feathers?”
Lesson One: Forgiveness-Jesus style
Most Christians understand the forgiveness of sins that Jesus freely offers to all mankind (Calvinists, take a deep breath, this is not the time for debate). When Jesus died on the cross, His outstretched arms were willing to embrace all that come to Him for forgiveness, no strings attached.
That is the first lesson. We, as Christians, must be willing to forgive anyone who comes to us.
Lesson Two: Ramifications-Thief on the cross style
As most of us know, one of the thieves, who was crucified with Jesus, asked Jesus for forgiveness. The Savior, even though in extremis, told the thief that he would be with Jesus in paradise that very day. The thief was forgiven but he still had to die a most painful death.
This is the second lesson for us. Just because we have received forgiveness does not mean that we will avoid the consequences of our actions.
Lesson Three: Picking up the pieces-Paul style
Gordon Franz LINK tells this story in some detail and I have excerpted some comments to follow.
John Mark deserted Paul and Barnabas on Paul’s first missionary journey in AD 47. There is speculation that he did not bear up well under the persecution or that he did not approve on Paul’s leadership.
Barnabas wanted to give John Mark a second chance and asked Paul to let him join them on the second missionary journey. Paul declined and Barnabas left Paul and took John Mark to Cyprus, while Paul and Silas went to Galatia (Acts 15:36-41) in AD 49.
“Approximately 11 years pass and John Mark appears in Rome with the Apostle Paul who was under house arrest and awaiting trial before Nero in the years AD 60-62. Paul, writing an epistle to the church at Colossae, sent greetings from several brethren who are with him in Rome, including John Mark. He instructs the believers in Colossae to welcome John Mark if he comes by the city during his travels (Col. 4:10). “
The third lesson is about forgiveness, reconciliation and letting others know. We are not told how Paul and John Mark reconciled yet John Mark was now putting his own life in danger to be with Paul. Paul graciously told the world through his letter to the Colossians that they were to welcome John Mark. All was now well.
So, let’s take a look at some real time examples.
How should we deal with telling a harmful lie?
Forgiveness, on the part of the offended Christian, must be a given. But, there is more to be done and understood. The pain and suffering that is inherent in these situations will not necessarily end upon forgiveness. Such healing may take a long time. In John Mark’s story, Paul refused to take him on the second missionary journey. However, sometime in the midst of a decade, trust was restored and the friendship repaired.
But, the apologizer, who has told a lie, must take the next step. It is imperative to begin picking up the feathers. In other words, a quiet apology in the dark of night is not enough. The offender should seek out and find everyone that he told the lie to and tell them it was not true. This one, folks, takes a lot more guts than a quickie mea culpa to the offended person. This is being willing to face humiliation and the loss of reputation.
Accept that reconciliation may not mean full repair.
I knew a woman who left her husband due to irreconcilable differences. She remarried and years later, she became a Christian. Although her former husband equally (if not more) contributed to the issues in their failed marriage, she began to recognize the part that she played. She sought him out and asked him for forgiveness. Although it was granted, the relationship cannot be fully repaired in this life. However, I admire the courage it took for her to initiate the process.
An apology might not be accepted in the short term and reparations may take a lifetime.
The Joshua Harris apology
Please refer to SGM Refuge at this LINK to read the entire text of Josh Harris apology. I would like to highlight a few issues.
First, SGM "leaders" apparently believed that good kids would always result from good parenting. As most people outside of such controlled environments know, this a pile of codswallop. Yes, it is important to raise our kids well but, they have their own minds and can choose to sin just like we can. Yet, it appears that, within SGM, people were removed from ministries and the pastorate or were shunned by other members (with the implicit encouragement of the leaders)if one of their kids went down the wrong road.
Secondly, it appears that, at their Covenant Life school, harsh discipline was applied to whip those little sinners into shape. This harshness may have led to kids and/or their parents walking away from the church
Why the apology at this time? Could it be that a certain big boy leader has a child who fit the category of rebellious and he wasn’t forced to step down and questions were being raised? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
Although some accept the apology, a lifetime of problems within the leadership structure of SGM has caused some members and former members to distrust both the apology and it’s intent.
Finally, Harris makes a big deal about what is not going to change in the church. Oh no, it is still business as usual and this part of the apology was a big, big, mistake on the part of Harris. I will explain why in a minute.
Here is a response by the editor of SGM Survivors. LINK.
“Tight (practically paranoid) pastoral control permeated every aspect of this entire process, from the by-invitation-only guest lists to the venue (Josh Harris’ own house) to the continued commands for people to bring all their questions to their pastors. While it’s great for Josh Harris to recognize that he and the other leaders should continue to solicit feedback from their people, the fact that he has to beg for it and provide assurances that there will be no recriminations –well, isn’t that a sign that something foundational is STILL not right? Isn’t that a sign that SGM’s entire governance set-up needs fixing?”
There are many lessons to be learned from Harris' apology.
- Do not combine an apology with authoritarian posturing. Let’s say someone has told a lie about you and has come to apologize. How would you feel if he said he was sorry but then went on to list all the things that were not going to change about his character? “Sally, I am sorry for telling people that your kid is running around with a bad crowd but don’t think that I am going to become less authoritative, less in control and more accommodating. Just remember that.” The apology gets lost in the caveats. Just say you made a mistake and be done with it.
- Years of bad behavior will not be forgotten with a single mea culpa. Trust will take years to establish and there are no shortcuts.
- Be careful that the apology is not a means (or is perceived as such) to an end. In this case, people might question that the apology is simply a means to get people to stop questioning why “certain” leaders’ kids get a pass. People can see though manipulation.
- Humility is key. It is rather amusing to me that SGM, with all of its reported abuses, prides itself on a leader who supposedly is the au courant expert on humility. Unfortunately, anyone who has paid a modicum of attention to this group is painfully aware that humility and SGM leadership appears to be an oxymoron.
- This organization must now pull out all stops to find victims of this admittedly stupid teaching. I assume they have years of records on the membership of both the church and the school. Harris must take the difficult step of tracking people down. Yep, it will take time away from book writing and conference hopping, but so be it. This is called "feather gathering."
I have a suggestion for SGM leaders, which includes "the hide behind the skirts of others" CJ Mahaney. Cut out running around to all these conferences and pretending that you have the answers on “how to do church.” You don’t. And the reports of concerns about your non-denomination denomination continue to escalate year by year. Why don’t you all practice humility, lay low and take care of business? Then some of the folks in your churches might actually believe you care. It’s easy to fool people on the circuit. Most of them are too busy and too blind to see what is going on. Wouldn’t it be nice to be praised by those you have actually hurt and offended? Or do they not matter as much to you anyway?
Lydia's Corner: 1 Samuel 2:22-4:22 John 5:24-47 Psalm 106:1-12 Proverbs 14:30-31
I have yet to recieve an apology or an invitation to reconcile.
They are welcome to go to my blog and get in touch.
There are other obvious avenues as well, I am not in hiding.
And I am one of thousands that have been negatively impacted.
But, then again, the fauxpostles are hiding in the shadows whilst their whipping boy sticks his neck out on the chopping block.
Dee & Deb,
Is there some way to tell which one of you authors each post?
Hi Junkster
Look at the very top of the post. It gives the date and which of us posted.
DB
I know this will sound cynical, but I think that everything that is said by the SGM leadership is calculated and meant to protect the entity over the individual. I am sorry that they have not apologized. But, in my own experience in dealing with pastors who are egocentric, such persons are not prone to personally apologize because it is too threatening to their fragile self image.
Thanks, Dee. I see it now — you have to click on “Read the rest of this entry »” first.
I read the Harris apology — I can’t speak to the sincerity or the motives, but my first thought is that it seems as if the right words were used. I appreciate an apology that’s direct and specific, and that doesn’t seek to minimize the feelings of the person offended. I also liked the concept of seeking to focus more on principles than specific practices, and recognizing that the prior focus on specific practices was wrong. Time will tell how good a job they do of shifting focus in this matter, but it was good to see an acknowledgment that this has been a problem.
The thing that really stands out to me is the photo. Does Josh shave his head to look more like CJ?? If so, is that a matter of principle, or of practice? 🙂
Junkster
What do you think of the opinion of SGM Survivors? I agree that the words sound good and that time will tell.
As for the head-did you know that Harris lived with the Mahaney’s for awhile? A year or so ago, we wrote a post on the number of pastors within the SGM “family” who were shaving their heads to to look like Mahaney. Very bizarre. I say the real question is principle, practice or psychiatric?
Dee said:
“I have a suggestion for SGM leaders, which includes “the hide behind the skirts of others” CJ Mahaney. Cut out running around to all these conferences and pretending that you have the answers on “how to do church.” You don’t. And the reports of concerns about your non-denomination denomination continue to escalate year by year. Why don’t you all practice humility, lay low and take care of business? Then some of the folks in your churches might actually believe you care. It’s easy to fool people on the circuit. Most of them are too busy and too blind to see what is going on.”
AMEN!!!
Here’s what really troubles me. We have Reformed Baptist pastors in our area who consider C.J. Mahaney to be a very good friend. Not only that, they recommend his books on their church websites.
Just eight hours ago a pastor of a recent church plant in Raleigh was a guest on a WTRU program. The topic being discussed was “Biblical Manhood.” I went to the website of this church plant and discovered the parent resource bibliography, which includes books by Mahaney’s wife, Carolyn. I have been following the current discussion over at SGM Survivors, and when I saw these titles by SGM celebrities, I felt like throwing up!!!
Apologies can be instantaneous. The re-establishment of trust can take a lifetime. SGM has at least taken a step toward acknowledging that their organization is actually part of this fallen world. Up to now it looks like they mistook Gaithersburg for Eden. Sorry, CJ, the Happiest Place on Earth was established after the Fall.
Now that Mr Humble has written the textbook on humility, watch out….the next one may teach us how to apologize!
Oh, Dee, I wasn’t actually expecting an apology, I was merely saying I’m not hard to find and apologize to if they were really sincere about this thing.
But you got it in the title of this post; this is a cheap emmpty apology.
I suppose they should start by ending their ongoing abuse and then apologize for past offenses.
…and apostle baldhead says NOTHING about issues concerning a church he personally “shepherded” for decades ? not one word or blog post–heck a retweet would suffice at this point ! Simply mystifying.
They really do think we all are dumb sheep.
Here’s what really troubles me. We have Reformed Baptist pastors in our area who consider C.J. Mahaney to be a very good friend. Not only that, they recommend his books on their church websites.
It’s easy to fool people on the circuit. Most of them are too busy and too blind to see what is going on.”
I’ll preface what I’m about to say with this: The false church with many worldly ideologies coalescing is rising up, but God is solidly on His throne, His will is going according to plan, and His church is alive and well. Be encouraged in this:
Rev. 2:2 “I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.”
Celebrity preachers and fauxpostles are highly skilled marketers with a gift for schmoozing and crafting words as needed. I think you’re right that some Christian leaders are simply too busy to notice the sleight of hand being played on them. Others see the tricks for what they are and play along for monetary gain.
C.J. Mahaney has masterfully used men like John MacArthur and Al Mohler to achieve his own ends. Mahaney never achieved earning a college or seminary degree; he left the drug world for the 70s Jesus Movement to become a charismatic Catholic and later started a ministry he called People of Destiny.
Perhaps over time Mahaney realized that the name People of Destiny sounds more cultic and man-focused rather than Christ-centered, so a new church name was created – one that would give a better impression to the ministers Mahaney desperately needed to enhance his own credibility. Hence, Sovereign Grace was born.
Possessing excellent business sense and realizing his lack of credentials, Mahaney needed to connect with well known and respected preachers to boost his ministry monetarily. Three possible reasons explaining Mahaney’s friendship success are his natural charisma, his masterful use of Christian buzzwords (akin to the methodology used by the Mormon church), and his booming conference circuit selling the books of those agreeing to speak.
As to recent apologies and bald heads – I dub Josh Harris the consummate Celebrity Chameleon: One whose appearance and attitude changes to match that of his favorite celebrity. My hat (over a full head of hair) goes off to him for a job well done in the eyes of his mentor.
Now as to what God thinks….
Luke 8:17 “For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.”
Brightly shining heads notwithstanding…..time will tell.
Alison,
I couldn’t agree more with your commentary. There will DEFINITELY be more to come on this topic here at TWW.
Lots of men I know shave their heads….it’s been “in” for several years now. I met Josh several years ago…I think about 1998 and it was before he was even married. He had hair then but I assume he went bald and probably shaves the sides just like the other 20 million men in this country who want to be just like CJ.
Just remember….correlation does not establish causation.
Just remember….correlation does not establish causation.
Point taken, but it goes without saying that celebrity emulation is commonly practiced in more “cultic” type groups so it’s a consideration in this case.
Whatever the situation, only God and Josh’s hairdresser know for sure.
Shato
A Danish psychiatrist did some investigation into mentors and their followers. I wrote about this in the Irish Prodigal series and don’t have time to look it up but you can read through them and find this. He noted that many people, admiring their charismatic and authoritarian mentors, identify with them in more than their ideas. They often, either subconsciously or consciously, take on physical identification as well as things like taking up their adored leaders favorite sports, manner of dress, and speech inflections. It is called mimetic personality identification.
I particularly remember becoming aware of this when I went to hear a woman speak at church. I knew she admired Ann Graham Lotz. Said speaker used hand movements, tilted her head a certain way, inflected her voice and even wore her hair in a similar fashion. It suddenly dawned on me that she was imitating Lotz. It kind of freaked me out.
As a corollary to your concluding remark: Just because you are paranoid, doesn’t mean that they are not out to get you.
Yinka
With the advent of blogging, they have become very well aware that we are NOT sheep so they are watching us carefully. I still think Harris’ comments had as much to do with quelling rumors in the blogosphere as with admitting error.
With the advent of blogging, they have become very well aware that we are NOT sheep so they are watching us carefully.
Yes, damage control is very important and this is a primary reason why people who cross the leadership of such groups are spoken ill of, discounted, shunned, or shamed before others.
It reminds me of the famous speech by lawyer Atticus Finch in the courtroom scene of the movie To Kill a Mockingbird where he said:
“It was guilt that motivated her….She must destroy the evidence of her offense, but what was the evidence of her offense? Tom Robinson – a human being. She must put Tom Robinson away from her. Tom Robinson was to her a daily reminder of what she did.”
Alison
Well stated! Perfect quote.
Shato said, “Just remember….correlation does not establish causation.”
I suppose you could conduct a survey of men in leadership in SGM and compare them to leadership in a control church that has no ties to CJ but has a bald leader and run it through an ANOVA test to determine if there is any significant difference.
My son-in-law shaves his head but he does not display any tendency to elevate a mere human to hero status and then try to become said hero’s clone.
It isn’t just the shaved heads, compare the *mannerisms* and body-language of the SGM drones with the queen of the hive and you will be a bit taken aback at the thoroughness of this group’s assimilation process.
DB
It is a sign of poor self image and weak self actualization when an individual must express himself in the same way as another. That is what worries me with any ministry in which the leader is the set standard for all things correct; be it a particular sport, a particular way to drink coffee, whatever. It is like a little boy who tries to imitate his father. But the little boy looks silly trying to shave like dad or wear dad’s shoes.
God has created us to be individuals. No two of us are alike and these differences should be celebrated and encouraged instead of feared. In our individuality is the full expression of God’s creative nature.
Agreed.
While it is normal for a little boy to copy his dad when he’s little, as adults, we should be able to forge our own path as a unique individual.
I think of the verse about the body of Christ and its many members all of whom are needed and worthy of respect. In fact, If I were able to investigate this phenom, I bet I would discover that the more unique the personality, the less able that person will be able to conform to the very narrow accepted SGM standard for that person.
Using that guideline, it is no surprise that I was shown the door.
Watch out or the Vision Forum troops will join in here twisting John 14:9.
Alison
Vision Forum???? Good night, pack up the babies and head for the hills-that group has some very weird mojo.
Alison
For our readers and me here is the verse you cited John14:9
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
How do they interpret that? Seems straightforward to me.
DB
You escaped by being unique and you were strong enough not to subdue the spirit you were given. Quite a few folks who join us here have had there own “show me the door” incident. However, little did the people who showed you the door know that the door was the door to freedom and they were still stuck inside. I think CS Lewis said that the door to hell is firmly locked from the inside.
John 14:9 “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”
I’m jesting when I talk about Vision Forum. You know one of their churches headed by Scott Brown in Rolesville split when he and Doug Phillips produced a documentary talking about sons glorifying their earthly fathers the same way Jesus glorified His Heavenly Father.
Dee said, “Vision Forum? Good night, pack up the babies and head for the hills – that group has some very wierd mojo.”
Do you have a scoop on that “heading for the hills” part? I haven’t heard that yet.
Alison,
We have done extensive research on Vision Forum, Doug Phillips, Scott Brown, R.C. Sproul, Jr and his defrocking, Patriarchy, Homeschooling, Family Integrated Churches, Boerne Christian Assembly, Hope Baptist Church (which meets at Scott’s home – I assume this hasn’t changed), Dominionism/Reconstructionism, the Duggars, Quiverfull, the Chaunceys, the Stay-at-Home Daughters’ Movement, So Much More and the Botkin Sisters, “Covering”, Doug Wilson, the San Antonio Film Festival, Doug Phillips’ close relationship with Ken Ham, the Creation Museum and the homeschooling connection (Doug Phillips), and believe it or not the list goes on…
There is no way to know the countless hours I have spent researching these topics. We have covered some of them in previous posts. Check out our “Categories”.
It’s been a while since I’ve investigated these topics, and I’ll plan to do some follow-up research soon.
Alison
It is a joke from an old Southernism. When something bad is about to occur, one packs up the babies and the old ladies and heads for this hills until the shooting is over. Vision Forum inspires such a reaction in me.
You’re doing a fantastic job here and keep up the good work! I pray God opens many eyes as the layers of deception in some of these groups (portraying themselves as the church) are revealed.
Luke 8:17 “For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.”
What’s sneaky about these groups is they combine some of the truth with the false – or they twist the truth – or they align themselves with those speaking truth so as to give themselves credibility. In the New Testament at least ten men are warned about as being false teachers and they are even named. I bring that to light for anyone accusing a site like this one of gossiping or spreading division. Was Paul gossiping or spreading division when he warned about those men? Do we believe for a moment that the church brethren did not speak about these things?
2 Peter 2:1 “But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, . . . ”
In Acts 13:6-12 Paul takes issue with Elymas.
Philippians 3:1-2 “Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe. Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!”
Another man Paul specifically names and warns about: “Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works.” (2 Timothy 4:14)
Paul warns about Hymenaeus, Alexander, Phygellus, Hermogenes, Phyletus, Jannes, Jambres, and Demas in the following scripture passages:
1 Tim 1:18-20
2 Tim. 1:15
2 Tim. 2:17-19
2 Tim. 3:8
2 Tim. 4:10
1 John 2:15
Paul even openly chastised Peter, who though not a false teacher, was showing hypocrisy. See Gal. 2:11-21
Contrary to what we often hear these pastors preach, which is to be silent (in the face of evil) so as not to spread dissension or cause division, here is what Paul said in Rom. 16:17: “….note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the DOCTRINE which you learned, and AVOID them.”
Political correctness mandating that we never judge (even discern) evil has swept into our churches! “Do not judge” is the 11th commandment created by men who desire to do whatever is right in their own eyes. (I Cor. 5:12-13; 6:1-2)
If a “church” does not have Christ as it’s central focus, then the scripture says it is deceiving people. Some of these churches (Mormons being a case in point) talk the Christian talk, but the Christ they refer to is different from the Christ whom Christians esteem. The Mormons believe that Christ is the brother of Satan, for example, when nowhere in scripture is this stated. Some of these other groups like Vision Forum or SGM speak of Christ, but He is not supreme – in their groups (churches) the father of the home and the church pastors are the axis upon which everything else spins. By mixing truth with error, some are deceived and Christ is not truly glorified.
2 John 7 “For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”
Some of these “church” leaders are morally corrupt as in the case of Mark Driscoll with the Resurgence Movement (tied in interestingly with the Emergents whether Driscoll wants to admit it or not). Driscoll openly has condoned a sexual practice (which I will not name), but which has not been designed by God to be used in marriage.
“Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness . . . ” (Jude 3-4)
Some like Rick Warren, Tony Campolo and Jim Wallis insert doctrinal lewdness as they work with leaders like Tony Blair to pull all faiths into one (the inter-faith movement is the stepping stone) and insist that all faiths lead to the same God, which is not the true God of course because the god the Hindus worship, the Mormons worship, the Muslims worship – this is not the true God at all or else they would acknowledge Christ as the only way to salvation.
The Bible is crystal clear on this. In John 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
2 John 9 “Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.”
So what are we to do? Do we hide these things and refuse to discuss them? Do we protect these false teachers who diminish the Lord God in the eyes of others? Do we care more about their feelings? Or about God’s perspective?
“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him….” (2 John 10)
No. We are instructed in the scriptures not to even have such a person into our home. Clearly, we should point such people out just as was done in the New Testament so that people can be warned.
If we are silent, we give opportunity to Satan to devour.
John 10:11-13 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.”
Do we continue to fellowship with such people in order to keep unity and avoid division?
“And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.” (Ephesians 5:11)
No. The scripture says we are to expose them!
Oftentimes, false teachers will not expose, but they will also give approval to many teachers who are well spoken of (Luke 6:26). They do not expose the unfruitful works of darkness, but they fellowship with them by exalting them as godly men. They use book endorsements and provide them speaking venues at money-making conferences.
Some like Harold Camping twist the scripture and make false prophesies.
“But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart, “How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?” – when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:20-22)
“An astonishing and horrible thing has been committed in the land, and the priests rule by their own power; and My people love to have it so. But what will you do in the end?” (Jeremiah 5:30-31)
So we want to be told what to do and what to believe by men behind pulpits? Or do we want to be as the Bereans and prove what we hear to see if it is so?
Acts 17:11 “Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”
Even Paul’s teaching was examined by the early Christian church and they were commended for it!!!
(Matthew 16:6-12) Jesus said, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.”
False teachers brought in destructive heresies, but Christ also warned about their hypocrisy and desire to be placed on a pedestal just as C.J. Mahaney does! This is one more way to recognize these false teachers. This isn’t just about false doctrine. It includes how these leaders conducted themselves.
“Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. For there is nothing covered that will not be revealed, nor hidden that will not be known.” (Luke 12:1-2)
“Beware of the Scribes, who desire to go around in long robes, love greetings in the marketplaces, the best seats in the synagogues, and the best places at feasts, who devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation.” (Mark 12:38-40)
People like this will do one thing and say another. They might preach the right thing, but not apply it to their own lives.
2 Peter 2:3 “….by covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words.”
I love what Paul says here about his own motivations:
“For we are not, as so many, peddling the word of God; but as of sincerity, but as from God, we speak in the sight of God in Christ. (2 Corinthians 2:17).
Paul was not a peddler using God’s church for his own gain, whether it be for gain of prosperity or fame.
Again, Paul warned: “Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.” (Romans 16:17-18)
Jude 16 “…they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage.”
There are many, many more scriptures similar to these giving us warning.
Allison, (and others!)
Excellent posts.
I was struck by this while reading this morning.
He humbles those who dwell on high, he lays the lofty city low; he levels it to the ground and casts it down to the ground and casts it down to the dust. Feet trample it down- the feet of the oppressed, the footsteps of the poor. Isaiah 26:3
How much longer can they hide?
Alison said:
“Some of these “church” leaders are morally corrupt as in the case of Mark Driscoll with the Resurgence Movement (tied in interestingly with the Emergents whether Driscoll wants to admit it or not). Driscoll openly has condoned a sexual practice (which I will not name), but which has not been designed by God to be used in marriage.”
Alison,
You have brought up an important topic previously addressed here at TWW. When our blog was in its infancy stage (just over a month old), I wrote the following post — “Driscoll’s Sex Tips and the Tipping Point”.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/04/23/driscolls-sex-tips-and-the-tipping-point/
What’s really sad is that I personally know theologians who defend Driscoll. May Almighty God have mercy on them!
DB UNITED STATES says:
Thu, Jun 02 2011 at 03:33 pm
I suppose you could conduct a survey of men in leadership in SGM and compare them to leadership in a control church that has no ties to CJ but has a bald leader and run it through an ANOVA test to determine if there is any significant difference.
The statistical analysis method does not avoid the problem of causation. The research proposed is still a correlation of two variables at one point in time. For A to CAUSE B, you must minimally show that A precedes B in time, at least minutely (pun intended). I.E. People who are struck with bullets suffer injury. The bullet precedes the injury and can be treated as causing the injury, with nanosecond time lag, but a provable time lag. Then you have to deal with other issues, like causation of both A and B by some third variable. Causation is hard to prove statistically, and in the court room as well, particularly for social science type research.
Commenter is a former teacher of research methods and statistics in psychology.
Arce commented, “Commenter is a former teacher of research methods and statistics in psychology.”
I consider myself forwarned, thanks.
Hard to prove causation?
Depends upon your P-value, right?
What are the chances that so many bald, dressed, oddly gesturing Orwellian pigs (y’know, the ones that are more equal than others,) would aggregate randomly at the same time and place?
Beyond a shadow of a doubt? You have a point.
Happymom, that’s a good question. I know that Dee and Deb have written on the five roles people play in any toxic faith system. I believe that as long as people continue “enabling” these people to hurt others by remaining silent; “protecting and defending” them no matter what they do or say; and making excuses for their behaviors – these types of abuses will continue. Of course we all know the Bible speaks of an apostate church rising up and strengthening as time moves forward. What I find incredibly interesting is how so many errant religious philosophies are all beginning to merge closer together: Dominion theologists who believe the kingdom of God will be established on earth through the work of the church prior to Christ’s return; Emergents embracing the Third Way or communitarianism (communism light with the social gospel) to bring all faiths into one (minus the exclusivity of Christ); Mormons whose leaders are on record as wanting a Mormon American president to help usher in a theocracy; and others. I listen to Brannon Howse’s radio program at http://www.worldviewweekend.com where much of this is discussed. I believe that he is on the same page as Deb and Dee in almost every respect.
Deb, my heart felt sad reading your story. I love the fervor God has given you to speak out on these issues. I also appreciate the courage that God has given you and Dee. This is not a popular message. In fact, when I shared about Driscoll’s sexual teaching with one Christian leader who has been a Christian for decades, her response was indignant. Instead of finding a problem with Driscoll and thanking me for sharing the information, she shamed me for my audacity in speaking against one of the Lord’s annointed. A big problem today is that no matter how long a person has been a Christian, Biblical ignorance is rife and many appear to be following men more than the Lord. Many have little interest in being Bereans and it is to their detriment and to the detriment of our nation.
Deb, I will add that this technique you so astutely observed in Driscoll’s presentation – that of telling the young people, “If we don’t tell you, then who will?” is used in sex education courses in the public schools. If I’m not mistaken, I believe this can be observed in the film titled It’s Elementary which shows actual video of teachers undermining the wisdom of parents to a classroom of children. In this case it may be a child who states that the “only way” they can know all these sexually inappropriate details is if a teacher tells them. Forget the parents who are perceived as dull-wits. Like you, Deb, my heart aches for these young people.
Here’s the video of an actual classroom situation showing the techniques being used to brainwash kids:
http://www.massresistance.org/media/video/brainwashing.html
Ah, and yes (wow, I’m glad you brought this up) – was this not one of Satan’s first lies to Eve?
“You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
In other words, who will tell you this – if I don’t?
Deb:
Driscoll puportedly “repented” from his use of course language in the pulpit and has named CJ Mahaney among his close “mentors” to keep him accountable.
Driscoll purportedly “repented” from his use of course language in the pulpit and has named CJ Mahaney among his close “mentors” to keep him accountable.
Sweet.
http://www.joshharris.com/2007/11/learning_from_mark_driscoll.php
In this video I don’t hear Driscoll recanting his teaching to mixed audiences the practice of sex commonly used by those in the homosexual community.
Bart posts in the comment section: “Josh, I think CJ’s friendship with Mark may be one of the most strategic things he could be doing….I think Sovereign Grace and Acts 29 have a lot to share with each other. What do you think we can learn from Driscoll’s model of ministry?”
Strategic, indeed.
I just think it is kind of silly to talk about Josh’s hair when zillions of men in this country shave their head. It could mean something but it probably doesn’t mean anything. Francis Chan shaves his head.
I can’t be the judge of whether Josh’s apology is genuine or not. Time will tell. I think there is definitely some truth to the fact that SGM’s polity is the cause of a lot of their problems. Change will probably not happen overnight, but just the fact that they felt the need to make some sort of statement shows that they are starting to see the need for change.
Happymom might be able to comment on this…..but several years ago, (1998 maybe?) Benny Phillips was asked to step down as the senior pastor of Fairfax Covenant Church. His daughter had taken off and married an Army guy she’d been having sex with WHILE her parents were away teaching child rearing at another church. He was asked to step down as pastor for “pride” reasons. Anyways, a few months later someone from HQ (Steve Shank maybe?) went and did a big speech at FCC saying that the child rearing practices at FCC were way too legalistic, that it had be be based on grace, and they (the Apostolic team) had not overseen the teachings and were incredibily apologetic. I guess my point is they saw a major failure for legalistic child rearing way back in 1998, made major apologies and here they are again in the same place. Happymom, do you remember this?
If that is the standard, Josh Harris is going to pull every copy of Boy Meets Girl from bookstore and library shelves because of what has happened (see link.)
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/
Their draconian courtship practices are as bad as their draconian parenting advice.
And, btw, it isn’t just the shaved head, it is the monkey see-monkey do gestures that make all the little cj clones odd.
At risk of incurring the wrath of one commentator (or mayhap two?)on this thread, I am at a loss to understand why stuff of a sekshull nature is always the most focused-in-on in the conservative evangelical sub-culture.
Gays, lesbians, and transgender people represent only a small fraction of the U.S. populace. Please explain to me how they pose a threat to my life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness in a committed heterosexual marriage?
Conservative evangelicals would spend their energies far better if they lobbied the powers that be to re-instate the Glass Steagle act and get us out of two Vietnam style quagmires, rather than worrying about whether or not Adam marries Steve or that Heather has two mommies.
Shato, you’re so right that only God knows these men’s hearts, but the scripture does say “by their fruits you shall know them.” The point that should perhaps be emphasized is that false teachers are manipulative and the manipulation at SGM and in some other groups is well documented. There are also ample scriptures warning believers to be wary, many of which I listed above. Either we approach this with open eyes or we choose to believe the best when scripture admonishes us to be Bereans and to “trust no man.”
As the saying goes: “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”
the fact that they felt the need to make some sort of statement shows that they are starting to see the need for change.
I respectfully disagree. Any intelligent manipulator knows how to use apology to advantage. I’ve read that alcoholics commonly apologize just to calm things down and then at next opportunity they’re back to drinking. Verbal apologies are meaningless unless they are specific and result in actual change of heart and behavior.
It has already been repeated multiple times here that shaved heads are not the main concern which causes me to wonder why this pinpoint issue continues to be brought up on this thread. Dee addressed this very well earlier and this explains the point:
A Danish psychiatrist did some investigation into mentors and their followers. I wrote about this in the Irish Prodigal series and don’t have time to look it up but you can read through them and find this. He noted that many people, admiring their charismatic and authoritarian mentors, identify with them in more than their ideas. They often, either subconsciously or consciously, take on physical identification as well as things like taking up their adored leaders favorite sports, manner of dress, and speech inflections. It is called mimetic personality identification
If God intended for men to be bald then they’d lose their hair naturally … oh wait..oops 🙂
Rej,
Do you remember when Driscoll “repented”? Just the year would be helpful. Driscoll’s sex talk I wrote about took place on February 5, 2009.
Now that my daughter has graduated from UNC, I don’t mind providing more details about Driscoll’s “Naked and Unashamed” talk.
It was co-sponsored by J.D. Greear’s church – The Summit. You can see the “official” advertisement on JD’s blog at this link:
http://www.jdgreear.com/my_weblog/2009/02/mission-to-postmoderns-part-8.html
The p value only tells you that the relationship found is unlikely to occur by chance. A p of 0.05 says that a result that extreme from the middle of whatever distribution will only occur by chance one in 20 times (5 out of 100). One can have a very low p value, indicating a very strong relationship between variables, but without causation being demonstrated or the direction of the causation.
Blond hair and blue eyes are highly correlated, but neither causes the other. Both are caused by genes that are on the same chromosome.
There is a correlation between wealth and visiting Las Vegas. Does visiting in Las Vegas cause wealth? (not very likely, perhaps there are exceptions, but the general rule is that people leave Vegas with less than when they got there). Does being wealthy cause going to Las Vegas? Not in the usual sense of causing. Wealth enables travel and Las Vegas is an attractive travel destination. It is actually the case that, once in Vegas, those who come with less money tend gamble more (time) than those with more money, who play for higher stakes.
Karlton, that’s hilarious! I agree then. God intended men to be bald and even some women! That solves this entire issue. 😉 LOL I love it!
Actually, I prefer men with less hair on their heads as I find it masculine. But that’s just me and 99% of the other women out there. 🙂 A man who primps (whisper John Edwards) while arranging his bangs has no appeal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dm7IvEyl8U
No wonder the guy’s in so much trouble now. I bet today is really a bad hair day.
Acre,
I get what you’re saying. Our case of the bald head and odd behavior is similar to the blonde hair mutation and the non-brown eye mutation being so close to one another on whatever chromosome it is (I forget) that the chances of one crossing over without the other is slim to none.
Just as the shaven faux bald head *and* the odd CJ style stage presence are not caused by one another.
But blonde hair and blue (non-brown) eyes’ corelation is caused by their geographic location on the chromosome, the corelation between shaved head and strange body language/stage presence is caused by being part of the SGM collective. There are way more CJ clones on SGM stages than one would expect.
Sort of like all those Elvis impersonators in Vegas.
So, are you saying the SGM is a genetic malformation?
Or perhaps a weird stage persona that tries to do something they really are bad at?
Shato,
Yes, you are right in remembering what happened at Fairfax in 1998. Shank was brought in to sub until CJ selected our new leader, which turned out to be Mark Mullery. ah-hem.
During this time, we were trying to get the attention of anyone who would listen as we discovered that our young son had been molested by a young man in the church. (as referenced in Wallace’s story on http://www.sgmsurvivors.com)
Nothing was being done to help us and it was a pretty distressing time for us, so Shank very well could have given this talk. I do not recall a teaching like that. If he did, things only got worse under Mullery’s watch. Children have been molested, perps protected, and a dishonest pastor still reigns there.
Happymom, I’m real sorry to hear your son went through such a horrible experience. I hope and pray he’s healing and I respect your courage in speaking out a great deal.
What exactly are the main child rearing rules SG uses now? I also was told to throw the old book away. What I continue to see is constant spanking for minor offenses as young as 2 years old. I read many places that this is looked on as abusive by the general public. My kids were spanked for major things but not until they were older. I did however use it sometimes when a safety issue was involved like running into the street. Now I am helping to care for my 2 year old grandchild and am confused as to what to do.
Holman,
I hope some SGMers reading here can answer your questions about current SG child rearing rules. “Change is here to stay,” according to Ceej. That’s quite a contrast from the verse “I the Lord do not change”.
Out of curiosity, what was the old book you were instructed to throw away?
BTW, I have read all of your comments over at SGM Refuge. Thanks for sharing your pain because I believe it will help others who are trapped in SGM as well as those who are trying to recover from an abusive ministry.
Blessings to you and your family.
Mahaney need 2 years off. Let him drive a taxi to support his family. He’s not needed. We have the Word of God to read, the old Confessions to ponder, and old liturgies to pray. Who does he think he is that he is the “centre of the universe,” as if God’s Word can’t feed us? That is hubris to think he matters.
Wow, quite a read. Again, no dog in this fight, other than the principles of common humanity, natural law, and common law of the ages. Some sad stuff here. Again, the simple reading of the Bible TRIUMPHS OVER ALL SGM PREACHERS. TELL THEM TO SIT DOWN AND READ THE BIBLE INSTEAD OF THEIR ENTHUSIAST SERMONS. They just don’t matter compared to the Word of God. They don’t believe that though.
Donald,
Thanks for your comments. I hope you will read our upcoming posts because we will have some interesting information/theories to share about Mahaney and those who are defending him, specifically Al Mohler and Ligon Duncan.
Donald
I have just added your blog to my links.
I seriously debated on whether or not to post this comment as I feared contributing to losing traction with Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) in the past days’ events. And then I began to read and hear more words about SGM trying to fix those saints and sinners in the much reviled blogosphere, and I wonder if any real traction ever got started. At the risk of being labelled a hypocrite, I have to once again point out the what looking-glass so obviously reveals:
Sovereign Grace Ministries, please start by fixing yourselves.
Are we defective here on the blogs? Yes. But let’s start with this one, cold and hard fact: SGM, you cannot handle the truth of how many and how deep any of our defects bear your initials. This isn’t wound-licking, brothers. It’s a fact.
It is my prayer that the pot of SGM stops once and for all calling the kettle of the blogs black. SGM is not on the cleaner end of the morally-high-ground washcloth, and it does not have the corner on trust and reliability. SGM has no more legs to stand on.
How many more illustrations can be used?
I completely agree with Luna (comment from sgmrefuge.com blog):
“You (all of you) can and should and must say sorry and weep with and for those who have wept for so long. But ‘minister’…? I don’t know. Something about that seems ‘off’ to me. Don’t assume you have a right to ‘minister’ to the broken hearts on the blogs, until you have wept with them.”
If I had the bucks to do so, I would rent every billboard space within the proximity of an SGM church that has placed itself–and still places themselves–in the position of judge, jury, and executioner in regard to the blogosphere, and place Luna’s quote there.
Brothers and sisters, If I seem frustrated here, it comes from the feeling that every time I see Sovereign Grace Ministries take a step forward in trying to do the right thing with those who’ve been wounded, discarded, and trampled–Harvey’s “tyranny of the aggrieved,” that’s us–it takes two steps back. SGM simply cannot let go of trying to control every last particle of the minutiae that composes the world of Christians interacting with each other. That which SGM cannot control is flatly condemned. SGM wants to sit on the highest horse when feigning reconciliation. It wants to stack the deck in sins revealed. It wants, it wants, it wants…and then it presumes to make a list of all of the evil cravings of the blogs, and all of the “lies” on the blogs, and paint a caricature of those on the blogs as serious defects at best and bloody wolves at worst.
The caution that must be exercised here is in regard to yourselves, SGM…for three seconds, stop being cosmically absorbed with the hearts of others. For Your Savior’s sake, once and for all, open your chest and look at your own heart in the mirror.
Remove the redwood pine from your own eye before you attempt to tweeze any splinters out of the eyes from anyone outside of SGM, let alone those who came to the blogosphere because they got tired of bottom lip-puckering pots, dirty washcloths, legless judges, untrustworthy juries, control freak executioners, high horses, stacked decks, and splinter removers with the rustiest of tweezers.
Brothers-in-Christ at SGM, you have not even begun to weep, and you still raise that dirty finger in this direction and cry, “unclean!”
–John E. Wilkins, a.k.a. “Protestant Knight” on those disaffected, slanderous, rebellious, uninformed, vendetta-seeking, uncharitably judgmental blogs.
PS – let’s not have any more accusations of cowardly anonymity thrown my way. Many have known who I am for a long, long time. Here I am, guys, putting my money where my mouth is, stretching my neck out until it breaks.
PK
Preach it. I am repeating this comment under our last post and will probably stick it up on the post page tomorrow. A few years ago I spoke with SNAP about some boys who had been molested. They said to never, ever, ever forget those harmed when we raised the issues. They said people would attack us, try to obfuscate, make it about us. They said to keep the boys faces always in front of us.
Well, that is what we do on this blog. Those who have been kicked down and discarded as flotsam are never, ever forgotten here.