This brings up a good question. What DID Jesus wear? A thobe? Which to our eyes, is a lot like a long dress. Good thing my sound is not working because I did not get to hear what this guy said Jesus wore that was not like a dress.

And I always get a big kick out of the KJV only crowd. They might want to read the long preface written by the KJ translators at Hampton Court.

Actually Jesus probably wore two garments, a tunic (something akin to a shift dress) and a robe. The tunic could be pulled up between the legs and tied around the waste in something that was called “girding up the loins”, which workers would do.

I was not indicating that Jesus wore a shift dress, but that the tunic would look a great deal like a shift dress.

Ah, Steven Anderson. His church has been listed as a hate site by the Feds (much like Westboro Baptist). Not only does he say that it’s a sin for women to wear pants, he also says that it’s a sin for men to urinate while sitting down. (I kid you not! He’s known in some circles as “the pissing pastor”.)

You could add to the list of spiritual gurus the other two Drs. Bob Jones. Dr. Bob Jones, Jr. was infamous for calling Betty Ford a slut and telling God to curse Alexander Haig (who would not allow Northern Ireland’s Ian Paisley into the States for Bible Conference). Dr. Bob Jones, III, current chancellor at BJU, was the one who went on Larry King Live to basically repeal the ban on interracial dating (a position that cost the University its tax-exempt status in a Supreme Court decision). He also said there was no real Scriptural basis for the ban – though for years and years previously, he (as had his predecessors) had vehemently preached that there was. (It’s interesting to note that students now have to have their parents’ written permission to date interracially.)

Muff, you’re not the only one, though IFB congregations would totally disagree with you.

“Actually Jesus probably wore two garments, a tunic (something akin to a shift dress) and a robe. The tunic could be pulled up between the legs and tied around the waste in something that was called “girding up the loins”, which workers would do.”

So, what is the “loin cloth”? I thought that was like 1st Century Underwear for men.

Muff, I agree with you about this guy. Although I would say the CBMW site sounds more like the Mormons at this point. A lot of what is coming out the SBC these days is Mormonish.

First they say they want Jesus in pants. Then they say they hate Godspell. I guess they just can’t be pleased?

Interesting post. I agree with most of it.

I have found in these circles that there are many people and pastors who remain in these churches and either disagree with (or in the case of some of the parishoners) are not exposed to the more extreme views. One in particular – KJV only. That is primarily promoted by a guy named Peter Ruckman, but Hyles Anderson and some others have adopted that.

You certainly can find some significant disagreements among these groups. Liberty and Thomas Road Baptist Church would feel comfortable in the SBC (Thomas Road is now a member), as would First Baptist Fort Worth (J. Frank Norris’ old church, which is also in the SBC). The Hyles and Bob Jones folks would never do that.

What is also interesting is that most of these groups (not all, not Bob Jones, for example) came out of the SBC from the 1920s on. Most of the original founders got their seminary education at Southern or Southwestern. For example, Lee Roberson was educated at Southern after attending the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music and Bethel College. I believe that John R. Rice went to Southwestern. He was on staff with Norris and left Norris because he found him to be too extreme.

When these folks left the SBC, they created their own set of colleges. Liberty seems to have grown, but I don’t keep up. I have no idea about the sustainability of the others.

Many of these guys hate the SBC. Others do not, but are stuck, in a sense. They went out and started their own schools, have their own missionaries etc., and there is no clean way for them to break from all of that.

The SBC needs to be concerned if too many of these folks try to return to the SBC at one time. If they do, the SBC will be debating issues like whether to add a dress code article to the Baptist Faith & Message. So far, the churches that have returned have not tried to advance things like that.

Lydia

The Liberty Way: Women must shut up and men can lie.

Dee–>”It is my contention that fundamentalism/legalism is on the rise in many denominations and independent churches. I contend that this is due to a group of Calvinistas who have gained some prominence in the neo-evangelical world”>>

I’ve posted here several times anonymously…guess it’s about time to just put a name with the posts to make it easier on you all. On many things I can agree with you, and on many things I don’t. The funny/strange thing is that I have first hand experience on many of the topics here.

I disagree with the quote above by Dee. Legalism is far more than the outward stuff practiced by the IFB churches. That’s a part of it, but not the whole picture. It’s easy to point at dress wearing IFB women and go “what legalists!” In fact, anything that I think gains me favor with God is legalism. Have you read Jerry Bridges’ books? (I noticed the quote above) Jerry talks alot about this. If you haven’t read his books, I strongly encourage you to. He talks a lot about the perfomance treadmill and how we tend to think that we aren’t in God’s good graces because we don’t pray enough, or give enough, or parent our children well enough, etc. The price has been paid by Christ…anything we try to add to that is legalism.

My personal experience with those you would call “Calvinistas” is that they strongly discourage legalism. Having grown up in an IFB church, I feel that it was my time in Reformed churches that really helped me understand that I cannot add anything to God’s grace. (not that I was consciously doing this, but deep down i was) Being in Reformed Churches for me has been the total opposite experience of being in an IFB church. Are some of the Reformed groups perfect? No. Do I agree with the church polity in some of them? No. But I don’t think you should be blaming them for for bringing legalism into other denominations and groups. I think they are strongly teaching against legalism and are very grace based. We are all prone to legalism….you and I are just as legalistic at times as the people in an IFB church. Just in different ways. I know my time in a “Calvinista” church taught me a lot about Freedom in Christ.

I noticed that Dee said that most IFB churches are KJVO. My experience has been that the IFB churches I have been in prefer the KJV …but I think there’s a difference between preferring the KJV and demanding that it is the only acceptable translation to use ever. I don’t think you’d find that in most IFB churches. At least not the BJU crowd. I’ve had more than one BJU pastor that preferred the ASV. You’ve got to remember despite the idiot that is being used as an example above and in the 20/20 segment, there are a lot of very learned men in the IFB as well. They aren’t going to fall for the KJVO stuff.

As I’ve gotten older, I’ve learned to try to appreciate the good in things, and not always critisize the bad. I’ve had a very critical spirit at times. The people in most IFB churches are still my brothers and sisters in Christ. (I would not include the Fred Phelps types in this) A lot of them are very lovely, wonderful people who would give you the shirt off their back. I’ve personally heard Chuck Phelps preach, and though it was years ago, I don’t recall hearing anything ridiculously out of place. Yes, he made horrible mistakes that he is being held accountable for. Hopefully he learns from this. I enjoyed the service, I enjoyed the music talent in his church. Some of the congregation are former relatives and some are good friends. I have fond memories of the IFB church I grew up in. Say what you like, but I sure memorized a lot of scripture, loved VBS and summer camps, got to sing in the choir and play the piano, was baptized and got married there. Do I still think they are legalistic? Yes. Do I wish they’d change? Yes. Would I ever go back? Never, unless it was the only church I could get to because I lived out in the middle of Montana or something. (I am not aware of any sexual abuse in the church I grew up in–even asked my mother this the other day and she said she wasn’t aware of any either and my father was a deacon for years so we’d know if there was any coverup or anything)

I am currently attending a SBC church. I never thought I would in a million years. My experience with the SBC in the past wasn’t bad, but I always felt like the SBC churches I had visited were following a formula. I’ve read about the Ed Youngs and Mac Brunsons and Paige Pattersons. I don’t particularly like that. But as a Christian, it’s my responsibility to find a local church where I feel God wants me–and where I feel the Word of God is being opened faithfully. The first time I went to this SBC church (a conservative one at that) I was like–ok, great sermon…the music is too conservative…this place isn’t for me. I’d go off and visit other churches. Then I’d visit again. The sermons were so on…I’d listen and walk away thinking, wow, I’ve learned something today…boy do I need to change…that helped my unbelief…etc. The pastor is against politics in the church. He doesn’t preach the tithe. He preaches verse by verse. I could have written off a very wonderful church had I listened to just how horrible the SBC is online.

What am I trying to say? Just that you can’t blame a group for bringing in legalism. It’s already there in each of us. We can be critical of groups, but they all have their strengths and weaknesses. And I can’t help but wonder if attacking the IFB makes us feel more self righteous…which right there is legalism and not so different than the IFB people feeling self-rigtheous because they are “separate” from the world.

“And I can’t help but wonder if attacking the IFB makes us feel more self righteous…which right there is legalism and not so different than the IFB people feeling self-rigtheous because they are “separate” from the world.”

When groups misrepresent the Word and teach things that are simply not so, we have a duty to analyze and show why it is wrong. Your position means we cannot do that. Or perhaps you don’t like the way it is done. Welcome to the club. Many try to make that sin and there is a reason why.

Let the Word be our truth. But even then, it means little to us personally without the Holy Spirit.

Shato,

Thanks for your comment. I appreciate your coming up with a moniker, rather than continuing to post as Anonymous. Hint, hint to other anonymous posters out there.

Your introductory remarks lead me to believe that you haven’t been reading here very long. The reason I wonder is because you wrote:

“I disagree with the quote above by Dee. Legalism is far more than the outward stuff practiced by the IFB churches. That’s a part of it, but not the whole picture. It’s easy to point at dress wearing IFB women and go “what legalists!” In fact, anything that I think gains me favor with God is legalism. Have you read Jerry Bridges’ books? (I noticed the quote above) Jerry talks alot about this. If you haven’t read his books, I strongly encourage you to. He talks a lot about the perfomance treadmill and how we tend to think that we aren’t in God’s good graces because we don’t pray enough, or give enough, or parent our children well enough, etc. The price has been paid by Christ…anything we try to add to that is legalism.”

I’m not sure you understand how much Dee and I are opposed to legalism. Galatians is one of my favorite books of the Bible because Paul condemns legalism. One of the reasons why this blog exists is because both of us strongly believe in Christian liberty.

It’s interesting that you conclude by saying we are being legalistic in our condemnation of certain IFB practices. No, I can assure you that we don’t feel self-righteous. Believe it or not, we actually hurt deeply for those who have been harmed in Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches (and every other kind of church for that matter). Based on your understanding of legalism, I guess you believe the Apostle Paul was being legalistic when he wrote his letters to various churches like the one in Corinth.

I do appreciate your chiming in and hope you’ll stick around.

That 2nd video was the most amazing piece of ignorance I have heard in a long time. The whole reason that the priests were instructed to wear thigh length pants (roughly equivalent to a pair of shorts) under their long robes was because they had to mount up steps to make the sacrifices while other people stood below. Well if you’re standing at a lower level and there’s a bit of a breeze, you might look up and see a lot more than you expected. So yes, these underthings were specifically to cover their nakedness.

I haven’t checked my research. but I always understood from ancient history that the only ancient people to wear trousers were the Scythians — and this was because the men spent a lot of time on horseback

Lydia,

I hate legalism as much as you guys do. I grew up in it and have seen the affects of it on many lives. But I don’t think we need to act as though people in the IFB are idiots. Many are not.

I totally agree with you that it takes the Holy Spirit to bring people out of that kind of legalism. I’ve always been a thinker, and had no choice about the IFB growing up as it was the only church in the area. As soon as I was on my own, I attended other sorts of churches. I’ve moved around a lot due to the military and jobs, and it’s been a wonderful experience to worship with and learn about other denominations and non-denominational groups. The more I got to see, the more I got tolerant of the gray areas (such as baptism, or preferences on music, etc) and realized that so much of what I had been taught in an IFB church was wrong. I can’t really think of horribly wrong theology that I was taught growing up but can think of a lot of things that weren’t emphasized properly such as the Sovereignty of God or the Grace of God. We all know that the Bible says Saved by grace and live by grace, and IFB churches would agree, but then they actually practice “saved by grace live by works”

I’m all for talking about the legalistic ways of the IFB, but we need to do it in a loving way. I heard Ravi Zacharias say the other day and I couldn’t agree more Conviction that is not undergirded by love makes the possessor of that conviction obnoxious and the dogma possessed becomes repulsive”.

Dee,

Darn, I just threw out my culottes! Seriously, I wear jeans and a t shirt most Sundays to this rather conservative SBC church. They probably think I am a pauper the way I dress. The fact is, deep down it’s because I had to dress up three times a week for church growing up and I’ll be darned if I am going to do it now!

Shato,

I can assure you that Dee and I enjoy being challenged. We encourage your comments and criticisms because we believe in an open dialogue. I wish I could say the same about the Calvinistas, who seem to have all the answers and rarely allow any feedback. But remember, it’s a two-way street, and we may disagree with you in a robust discussion.

Just a note. 20/20 does not define IFB. Neither does any particular preacher or college. Most of what I’ve read here is true, and as an IFB preacher’s wife it is truly heartbreaking tuth; but it is not true of IFB. Just as there our many differernt kinds of SBC, there are many different IFB. The words Independent Fundamental Baptist hold significantly different meanings for us than they do for many others. It is not the beliefs of the IFB that are wrong, but rather the stinky attitudes that go with them. From what I have heard, the 20/20 program displayed the worst of IFB, just as the media at one time made all Catholic priests out to be child molesters.
I think that these wars between denominations are very dangerous, and bring a smile to the devil. I’m NOT saying that we drop our differences and just “get along,” but that we each follow after God “fully persuaded in our own minds.” I was not happy when I read the Sword of the Lord articles blasting the SBC church, and I’m not happy that my sister thinks all IFB are legalist, which is what she has been taught in her SBC church. It is possible to take the strong stands usually held by IFB pastors, and not become legalistic; and there are good SBC churches out there. Each individual will stand before God, and each pastor will give account for how he shepherded the church. Leave it at that. Do what is right, and if at all possible, leave everyone else alone. There is just as much bitterness and aggressiveness in those speaking against IFB, as in the IFB churches they criticize. I can tell you that there is not exactly a lot of love expressed on this page. Meanwhile, there is a lost world who is dying and going to hell. Meanwhile, the devil is rejoicing because churches are doing his work for him! We all need to get over ourselves long enough to think about that.

Lydia,

I would agree with you that we are all “ministers in the Holy Priesthood,” though I believe the verses which use this phrase are dealing with our personal ministry and worship before the Lord. We no longer need a “man” to go to God for us. BUT to deny the local church, the role of Pastor (Bishop), or Deacon is to ignore a good portion of Paul’s writing. Whatever your doctrinal stand on the universal church or the local church, there is no mistaking that NT churches were local assemblies led by Pastors and Deacons. These people did have authority, under Christ, to organize and “govern” a body of believers. These believers CHOSE their churches, and through that choice could hold a leader accountable. There is a natural checks and balances here. The people did not follow the “man,” but the “man” did have authority (not to mention great responsibility) in the church. I would add here that none of these churches did everything right, but Paul never said, “Oh well, pack up and go home. This church thing just didn’t work.” Also, the Bible warns against heirarchies, such as we see in the Catholic church, which is why many IFB pastors are independent.

Example of how this can play out: (at risk of opening a whole new can of worms!)

My pastor, from the church that commissioned us as missionaries (Paul and Barnabas were commissioned in case that bothers someone), does not believe that a man who has remarried after divorce can be a Pastor. He believes that that man can preach, but is disqualified from the “office of a bishop.” We do no necessarily see it the same way, though we respect his point of view. We were in revival services where the preacher, we later discovered, was remarried. His first marriage and divorce were as a lost man. The Holy Spirit moved mightily in these services, and we even had a young man saved (a rare thing here). My husband called our Pastor to get his take on it. His response…”It is between that Pastor and God, and that Pastor and his people. As for me, I have to go by the Bible as best I can; I am accountable to God for obeying what I believe; and therefore I would not have him preach at our church. As for him, I wish him success.”

You see, in this situation, each is accountable to God for themselves; and a pastor takes additional responsibility for how he shepherds his flock. The remarried man answers to God and his church, my husband answers to God (He does not have to agree with our Pastor.) and our Pastor answers to God and his church (which would include us.) Even though our ministry is “out of” our church, it is not directed by it. Our pastor believes that he can trust my husband to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, or he would not have commissioned him, and it is O.K. if we respectfully disagree on some things. We are currently helping another missionary, and must also respect his leadership in the church here; BUT we answer only to God for our beliefs.

Lydia says, “So, it IS the beliefs that are wrong. Not all act wrongly on wrong beliefs but enough do that we must be vigilant.”

Let me clarify what I meant by “beliefs.” I was primarily refering to “doctrines,” (and our doctrinal statement goes back way before IFB.) I would also include application of these doctrines, which may express themselves in certain standards. (i.e. their is nothing wrong if a lady wears dresses because believes that is the best choice for “modest apparel”) Their is a problem if she believes that this makes her better than someone else or earns her favor with God. This “belief” would be wrong. I agree there are many in IFB who live their lives by wrong beliefs. I am not accountable to them, only to God. I agree it is a serious problem, but do not see that I must change who I am because others have done wrongly. There are women who have been prostitutes, must I give up being a woman? Of course not! The guilty by association thing is very weak.

If a pastor breaks the law, let society hold him accountable.
If a pastor breaks God’s law, then let God, his deacons, and his church hold him accountable.
If a pastor looks to other preachers to set his beliefs and standards, then he is not doing his job.
If the members blindly follow their undershepherd (Pastor), and fail to follow their Great Shepherd (Jesus), then they are not doing their job.

No church or pastor will be perfect, and no church member will be perfect, but IF we all kept our focus on God, got our direction from His Word, and served the Lord because “HE IS WORTHY” we wouldn’t have the near the problems we do today.

My husband is not perfect, but as a preacher, he follows no one but the Lord. He follows the Lord along side with others, respects their beliefs, and when appropriate surrenders to their authority. (If they are going against the Bible, then it would not be appropriate to surrender.) We are IFB because we believe churches should operate Independently, with Christ as the only “Head of the Church,” we believe in the Fundamental truths of the Scripture as best as we understand them (and we believe in studying the Bible so that we will grow in our understanding), and because we believe in the basic doctrines of the Baptist faith. We are appalled by many of the things we see in IFB churches, but they are not us; and we are not accountable for them. We are not “married” to IFB, but the name does mean something to us, and to many others looking for a church. We would give up our “name” only if absolutely necessary (and trust me we have considered that it may come to that.)

Also, some of the information given on this page is inacurrate, and shows a strong bias against IFB, rather than exposure to the real problems that exist. Likewise, the 20/20 program did not represent even the majority of IFB pastors and churches, yet there will be people who leave good churches in fear of being “sucked in” to the cult-like church that was portrayed. I still say, the devil gets the victory.

If people blindly follow a man, then it is their choice to do so. There is no law that says they have to go to that church. If a church is teaching in a way that matches the above definition of legalism, then God will hold them accountable. I would recommend avoiding such a church. On the other hand, just because a church teaches things that you don’t like, it does not make them a cult. (And remember, as a fallible human being, you probably don’t have it all right either!) And as referred to in the previous post…

Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”

Let us never forget that the real heart of the Bible truly is…

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting live.”

As a result, believer should…

Deuteronomy 6:5 “And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

I hope that any who read this are truly trusting in Christ only for Salvation, and are loving the Lord with everything they’ve got. May God pour out his everlasting Mercy and his abundant Grace on us all! God bless you.

this guy is a domb-founded manipulative dictator/IFB’er; Jesus wore a robe/garment of some effect, and he was covered not naked because he didn’t have a pair pin=striped dress pants

i CAN’T BELIEVE SOME OF THESE PEOPLE LIKE THIS GUY, who actually believe Christ was adorned in 21st century fashions.