We never paid for electricity in our office apartment because the building was illegally hooked up to the power grid and all our power was stolen.” Driscoll "Confessions of a Reformission Rev"
Mark Driscoll "Keeping himself up for his woman"
joshsabo.blogspot.com
As I sit here, contemplating this post, sipping my Earl Grey-hot (inside Trekkie joke), I felt a clarification is in order prior to the post. Both of your humble blog queens have led traditional lives. Although we both hold MBAs, we have stayed home with our children, working on the home front. We are not some feminists producing a screed about Mark Driscoll. We believe that there are significant problems in both his behavior and theology that need to be addressed. Start by looking at the quote at the top of the page.
Excessive Focus on Sexual Issues
TWW has covered this in detail when this blog first started. You may read our posts by clicking on the Mark Driscoll key word on our list. His treatment of the Song of Solomon has been universally panned by most scholars except for his buddies in his network who benefit from speaking engagements, book endorsements, etc. Here is a link to Brother Mark's Traveling Sex Show to get you started.
The Ted Haggard Comment:
Some of our new readers may wonder why we often joke about being glamorous, well-dressed bloggers. This is in response to a comment that he made in his blog about Ted Haggard’s fall. Many of you might recall that Haggard was hooking up with a 20 something MALE and was also using drugs. Here is what Mark Driscoll wrote according to Christianity Today. Link.
“He (Driscoll) commented on Ted Haggard's resignation from the National Association of Evangelicals. Writing on his blog, Driscoll offered helpful, practical advice for young pastors who might struggle to ward off sexual temptation. But one comment stood out.
"It is not uncommon to meet pastors' wives who really let themselves go; they sometimes feel that because their husband is a pastor, he is therefore trapped into fidelity, which gives them cause for laziness," Driscoll wrote. "A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband's sin, but she may not be helping him either.’”
Now, if were were to look carefully at Driscoll's interpretation of sartorial splendor, we would see that he often dresses like a frat boy in Mickey Mouse t-shirts and carries what appears to be excess weight on his frame. But, he sees fit to make this comment about Haggard’s fall? Haggard likes guys so is he suggesting Haggard’s wife should do something so she is more attractive to Haggard? How? Become a male??
Driscoll seems to be doing his best to “blame the woman” instead of discussing the real issue about a pastor who likes both men and drugs. Why does he focus on the woman in this situation? Does he have trouble understanding that some men like men? Does this not fit his definition of patriarchy? Only women can be the screw ups in this arena? Good night!!!!
It is also important to note that Haggard’s wife appears to be a most attractive, well-dressed woman so this comment is, well, inappropriate and weird. However, TWW will continue to remind our readers of this comment whenever we allude to our glamorous selves. PS We never, ever wear Mickey Mouse t-shirts or bowling shirts.
Two Hour Sermon Preparation while watching the TV
Driscoll claims to have read thousands of theology books, so it might seem surprising that his exegesis is superficial. However, Driscoll gives some insight into why his theology might lack depth. At the following site, St Eutychus, the blogger actually took pictures of some revealing Facebook comments by Driscoll.
He claims to have prepared his sermon in 2 hours! Not only that, he noted that he did so while watching a Mariners Game on television!! Don’t believe me? See for yourself here.
Yesterday, one of my pastors confessed to spending 30 hours in preparation for the Sunday sermon. Since a sermon is one of the most important aspects of a preachers life, one might assume that intense preparation is a given. So why would a pastor actually brag about his abysmal preparation time on a public Facebook page? There seems to be a major disconnect here and I will propose a theory tomorrow. Warning: it is not flattering!
Women Must Stay Home While Men Work-The Bible Tells Me So!
Listen to Driscoll "unpack" Titus.Such trajectory, such winsomeness! If he spends 2 hours on a sermon, I wonder how much time he spent thinking about this one.
Here are some of my thoughts on this video. I believe that Driscoll misses the major point of this Titus passage. Let me propose three scenarios that involve three families that I know.
Scenario 1: The wife is a nationally well-known pediatrician who is involved with Christian medical ethics. She has a successful pediatric practice and is involved in testifying before Congress on issues near and dear to Christians. Her husband, who holds an advanced degree from an Ivy League school, was a stay at home dad. They both agreed to this arrangement. They successfully raised two Godly young women. While at home, the husband started a small, successful computer business that he ran from the home while the kids were at school. Now, he runs it full time. Said husband would have gladly supported the family financially. However, he supported his family with his flexibility which worked out for the interests of all involved.
Scenario 2: Both husband and wife are committed Christians, having met and married in dental school. The wife feared losing her dental skills while raising her children. So, they started a private dental practice in which the husband works three days a week and the wife works two days a week. One parent is always with the children.
Scenario 3: The husband is a nationally recognized cardiologist and his wife is a pediatric neurologist. Both love the Lord and serve at their church. They have one son who is handicapped and all three sons are now adults. The husband works full time. The mother sees patients one evening a week and on Saturdays. Although the husband was usually home during her short hours, they also lived next door to grandparents who could fill in an occasional conflict.
All of these scenarios would be rejected by the 2-hour TV theologian. In fact, Driscoll alludes to the fact that at a stay at home dad is worse than a pagan and that he probably should be rejected from the church. By extension, I guess he would want to throw out all working women as well.
He also seems to have some rather unique interpretations of gender roles. In the following quote, link, you can see how women (as opposed to men, I guess) can achieve salvation. Tomorrow we will expand even more on this topic.
“Women will be saved by going back to that role that God has chosen for them. Ladies, if the hair on the back of your neck stands up it is because you are fighting your role in the scripture.”
First, what is the utter nonsense about women being saved by “going back to the role God has chosen for them?” I thought women (as well as men) are saved by Jesus? Does this guy read the New Testament or is he too busy watching the Mariners?
To what role is he referring? The farmer’s wife who worked in the fields during harvest? The women who supported the early church with their money? How about the Proverbs 31 woman? Perhaps a little history lesson is in order.
Ben Witherington, Professor of New Testament Interpretation at Asbury Theological Seminary comments on this video at his blog on Belief Net. We have included a small excerpt. Please go to this link for the full commentary. http://blog.beliefnet.
“There is in fact nothing in Titus 2, that justifies the way Mark Driscoll and his wife use that text to repristinize patriarchy. The Bible says nothing about women needing to ‘stay at home’ while dad goes out and ‘makes a living and provides for the family’. This whole way of envisioning the social situation is post-Biblical. Both the husband and wife worked in and out of the home or on the land in antiquity. There was no such division of labor of women in doors and men out doors or men away at some factory and women at home. There was no industrial revolution yet, there were no factories, and all work was local, and mostly on one’s own or one’s neighbor’s land, unless one was an artisan in which case, both parents worked in and out of the home. So Driscoll has totally misread the Biblical social situation and how it worked. Look for example at the book of Ruth. Where do we find the women working? They are in the fields— work outside the house etc.
On a day to day basis it was more likely to be the wife and slaves who ran the family store front business, while the husband ran around making contacts, playing games, eating with friends and the like. If you want to read about daily life in places like Rome, Ephesus and elsewhere in Paul’s day, and begin to understand the actual family structure and roles, read the delightful book ‘A Day in the Life of Ancient Rome’ by Alberto Angela. If you want detailed exegesis of Titus 2 and the rest of the Pastorals, see my Letters and Homilies for Hellenized Christians Vol. One (InterVarsity Press). For all his touting of being faithful to the Word of God, and I am sure he is trying to do so, it’s clear Mark Driscoll, at least in this case, has not bothered to study it in its original historical contexts, and instead has chosen to read into the text modern conservative patriarchy, an all too common practice in conservative Christian circles. The irony is, despite his castigating the ways of the larger culture of today, in fact what he has done is anachronistically read a certain kind of modern Christian culture back into Titus, when in fact the family situation Paul is addressing is far different from his own.”
TWW thinks that Mark Driscoll needs to spend a heckuva lot more time studying Scripture instead of scoreboards. His viewpoints reflect a ho-hum literalism that does a grave injustice to the context of the text. However, there is something that is even more worrisome than his superficial treatment of Scripture. We’ll talk about this tomorrow.
**************************
We have received a number of emails regarding the developments in the Ken Ham saga. We plan to discuss these on Thursday. Is there a Christian version of karma?
Lydia's Corner: Deuteronomy 29:1-30:20 Luke 11:37-12:7 Psalm 78:1-31 Proverbs 12:19-20
I have never read or listened to a Mark Driscoll sermon, though I have read snippets in blogs such as this, and in supportive blogs, as well.
My take on Driscoll is that on the major points, he gets it. He gets the Gospel right. He is an effective and creative communicator. He appears to have a gift for reaching a swath of people who might not be open to more common types of speakers.
I agree with what you say about his scholarship. Again, this is based on very limited information. But Driscoll appears to follow in a long line of evangelical speakers who were very effective, but because of their lack of academic preparation and background, often say things that are just not so. I don’t know why that is. Maybe we are just consigned to that lot. Most of our academics are not good speakers. Too many academics have abandoned the faith. Most really good speakers are not a mile wide and an inch deep. Billy Graham would fit nicely into this category, as would Bob Jones Sr., Moody, Finney and a host of others. In recent times, people with effective public speaking skills and followings that also have some academic pedigree and presentation would include Mohler, Piper, MacArthur, Sproul etc. I am sure there are others.
On the roles thing, how about going whole hog? How about a young couple each with professional degrees and practices who both work? They have a nanny or do day care. What’s wrong with that? That happens all the time, and the kids turn out fine.
I think that evangelicals would do better to stick with the text and not venture off in to creating cultrual ghettos and followings that are not mandated by the NT. If they do so, stress that the situation is optional. I have problem with that. I love homeschooling – as an option.
Let’s hope that Mark Driscoll will have the humility (or good sense) to cozy up to some faithful evangelical academic in the days ahead who can help him with the academic side of this presentation.
Hey, if C.J. Maheney can do it, so can Driscoll.
I meant – “Most really good speakers ARE a mile wide and an inch deep.”
anonymous
Mahaney is an example? Egads! Pls clarify. Calm down, self, calm down.
anonymous
Mahaney was supposed to be discipling Driscoll. I think I need to take very deep breaths.
“Women will be saved by going back to that role that God has chosen for them. Ladies, if the hair on the back of your neck stands up it is because you are fighting your role in the scripture.”
How sad that Joanna, wife of Chuza, in Luke 8 is not saved because she was not playing her proper role! But I am sure that Driscoll knows better than what scripture implies about her.
BTW: I certainly hope Grace Driscoll never has to have a masectomy or some accident that disfigures her looks. I wonder if Mark would feel ‘trapped’.
This guy is so shallow, I am more fearful for all the folks who actually take him seriously. That says a lot about the state of Christendom. Don’t forget, he is a big star in the reformed movement.
“Let’s hope that Mark Driscoll will have the humility (or good sense) to cozy up to some faithful evangelical academic in the days ahead who can help him with the academic side of this presentation”
Many were hoping Piper would be the one. But it seems that Driscoll just rubbed off on Piper! Pretty soon, Piper was throwing caution to the wind and doing more shock jock. (I have come to believe Piper loves media attention as much as Driscoll does)
Of course, Driscoll is known for “repenting” publicly, then getting worse, then repenting, then worse.
Way back in Blue Like Jazz, Miller referred to Driscoll as the “cussing pastor”. Driscoll has not changed., He is a shock jock. It is what makes him successful…fame and materially.
Notice, Driscoll moved on from the Miller types.
I am not here to defend Mark Driscoll except to make a point about sermon preparation. I read excerpts from his message on the Song of Solomon and I was appalled. However, he may not be speaking of his entire sermon preparation. And no, I am not comparing him to Spurgeon, but Spurgeon would read all week and sit down on Saturday night and compose the sermon to one page. He made notes all week which consisted of about 40-42 pages. I have one from a sermon he preached in 1881. I know there are times it is like wrestling to lay out a message and then there are times when it seems to just come in waves as fast as you can write it down. I believe however that the norm is extensive prep like your pastor. I heard Andrew Young say one time, that for every minute Dr. Martin Luther King spoke, he preapred one hour. A fifteen minute message took 15 hours. That is diligence. By the way, I learned a new word today, screed. You ladies always have interesting reads.
Can you just imagine what Driscoll’s comments do to men who work hard to provide enough and are unable to? Or, who lost their jobs and are unable find work? Threatening church discipline for needing to send a wife out to work sounds a bit extreme. I know he allows that there could be extenuating circumstances that they’d consider, but dang that’s harsh.
Just want to note that I am right now reading Witherington’s History of the New Testament. And it is only one of many that I read concerning historical context. I have even read the household codes of Rome, etc.
Without that context, it is easy to misunderstand many things. This is why I get so amused at their “roles for women”. Here is an interesting blog post on specfic roles for women from the Word:
http://coffeetradernews.blogspot.com/2011/01/biblical.html
Anon: “Most really good speakers ARE a mile wide and an inch deep.”
Yep, that discribes Driscoll.
I sat through one of his videos on the Song of Solomon and was shocked, not just by the sexual, shock jock termonology, but by how far off his interpretations were. It was as though he was pulling things out of his ah…. ear…. that had nothing to do with the original text.
I heard one man say that Driscoll was a good evangelist. But good evangelists don’t generally make very good pastors.
He doesn’t have the depth to be much more than a bad cliche when it comes to pastoring and teaching.
Anon at 3:18,
Can you tell me where to look for info on the household codes?
Dee,
I’ll bet you spent more than two hours on this blog post… Most of our readers probably have no idea how much time we spend each week researching and then writing these articles.
FYI – Here’s an article by Ed Stetzer that gives the breakdown for how most pastors spend their time. It’s interesting to see how Driscoll compares.
http://www.edstetzer.com/2009/12/how-protestant-pastors-spend-t.html
http://www.krusekronicle.com/2007/07/household-the-h.html
http://www.krusekronicle.com/2007/09/household-house.html
You can start here. There is much more on this site. There are also secular books that oulines the codes of Paterfamilias of that day and time. I cannot remember the names of them! Aristotle is a good source, too.
Keep in mind that Palestine had much Greek influence before the Romans came. When you read this stuff, you really see where so much of the thinking of today comes from as in thnking women are more easily deceived (for all time!), etc.
http://krusekronicle.typepad.com/kruse_kronicle/2006/03/theology_and_ec_5.html
Theology and Economics: Paul’s Subversion of the Empire
This one is very interesting.
Thanks! I’ve been keeping my eyes open for this for some time.
I have actually gone on over and started seaching Aristotles Polotics.
It talks about managing women in Book I chapters 12 and 13.
So many Christians are completely unaware that Paul was turning the Roman family code on its head. And being unaware of this, they take Ephesians as an establishment of Christian family codes rather than and undermining of secular patriarchal family code. And they use what Paul wrote to undermine patriarhy to try to re-establish it. Frustrating.
I’ve listened to a great deal of Mark Driscoll ‘s sermons on line and I’ve read 2 of his books. He is far brighter than you realise, he is very well read and from what I’ve read spends considerable time preparing sermons and researching his books. I believe his style is directly influenced by his blue collar background. He is devoted to his wife and never misses an opportunity to extol her virtues . He is a committed father who says spending time with his family is his main hobby. I’m not a Calvinist and I’m a working mother so I’ve no vested interest in defending Mark Driscoll however he is a complex man who is gifted at reaching people who would not cross the threshold of most churches
Mary
I can assure you that we, too, have been listening to Driscoll for a long, long time and find him to be a foul mouthed, shock jock who may not be as bright as you think. I point to the famous Song of Solomon debacle. If you read our other posts which were written over one year ago, you will find nothing much has changed.
Having grown up in a Russian immigrant family, I’m confused by your “blue collar” comment. A style is adopted by intelligent individuals and can change with sophistication that comes from exposure. I believe that Driscoll’s style is calculated.
There are many out there who are gifted in reaching those who would not “cross the threshold of most churches.” They do it with far more class and forgo the explicit language and shock jock tactics and weird Scriptural “interpretation”of Driscoll. Sorry. I don’t buy your explanation but i appreciate that you took the time to comment.
I don’t know how anyone can listen to a lot of Driscoll and not see the controlling tendancies of an abuser. Perhaps they just don’t know the signs.
He is proud of “filtering” her email because women are “gossips”. He knocked on every door in her dorm to warn guys to stay away from her. He calls women in the church gossipy coffee klatches and refuses to allow her to meet with the women. I could go on and on but you pare that with his teaching on sex, his coup of the church and ousting the other leaders, changing the bylaws to make himself dictator and you have a recipe for a controlling abuser.
Most do not know he started out emergent. He is a showman. A shock jock performer who appeals to a generation raised on such things.
Who says people are being “reached”? Reached for what? His version of the redneck Jesus?
Lydia
Tune in tomorrow. I think you’re gonna like it .I did some reading about the email thing and I have developed an interesting theory that you may find agreeable.
Let me get my 2 cents in. I have been an active pastor for over 39 yrs. I am not well-acquainted with Mark driscoll. My impression of him is a young man using tactics to get ppl’s attention. One thing I have noticed, and that is that too many preachers seem to think they have to entertain an audience. Maybe my thinking is stone-age rhetoric , but I look more for the message than for line dancing. Now about time spent in sermon preparation. I have been a serious student of the bible as well as secular history since time I starting preparing for the ministry. I do not write out my sermons. I use an outline but always pray that The Spirit will anoint the word. When our service is recorded i have no interest in critiqing it. I was truly shocked when the pastor in Ft.Worth put a bed on the platform and was giving sex education. O.K. I admit it I am a prude. Some things are better kept in the closet while other things need to be shouted from the roof-top. I also admit I feel Jesus meant what he said when He reminded us to not lay-up our treasures on earth but in heaven. Well, I am sounding too pious so will close before my wife sees this because she doen’t hold a secular job but is just as involved with pastoring as i am. Before I close ( preachers always find it hard to close) I must say i am disturbed by those who seem to think we can judge Godly success by counting nickles and noses. To me really delving into the word and doctrinal teaching needs to be done omitting flamboyance and theatrics
Jack,
Interesting that you should mention the pastor who put a bed on the platform and focused on sex ed. I’m assuming that you’re referring to the theatrics of none other than Ed Young, Jr.
Since you are fairly new to TWW, you might be interested in knowing that we wrote on Young’s flamboyance as well. Two years ago this coming Friday (April Fools Day), we wrote this post — “Churches with Sex Appeal — No Foolin”.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/04/01/churches-with-sex-appeal-no-foolin/
We have since learned how to hyperlink and embed videos, but the links in the post still work.
Can you believe that I actually hesitated in starting this faith watch blog with Dee because I didn’t believe there was that much to write about in Christendom. Boy, was I wrong!
Yes Deb i was referincing ed Young jr. I have been rather surprised at the way Ed Jr. has gone. I am in the Houston area and have known Ed sr. A long time. He in my opinion has been very diligent and erudite in his ministry. Seems that apple can fall a fair distance from the tree. So you and dee felt there was so little of interest in church activity that no one would care? I could reveal many things I have witnessed over the yrs, So I am not a neophyte. I don’t read a lot of blogs , but for some reason i enjoy tww. Hope u ladies keep your watch on the wall. Two ladies with m.b.a’s ahould know about te bottom line. I will keep reading as you also have some interesting commentators Jack
Whoa. Wait a minute. I just had a very delayed realization. Was Grace Driscoll instructing men in that video?
It’s okay Jenn. She’s under Mark’s umbrella and propping him up so it’s all legit in their minds.
Mara/Jenn
Wait until tomorrow. Driscoll has a very odd sense of “protecting” his wife. Some might think it is a bit off. If it doesn’t weird you out, nothing will.
Jack
Bad news on Ed Sr. he has rallied to his son’s defense on the big money/jet scandal. Ed Sr may be theologically more “conservative” but there is big money flowing around his ministry as well. When I lived in Dallas, Ed sr. house in Houston was voted in the top ten most beautiful homes (read moola) ! That’s saying a lot for Houston which is a big money city, as you know. You missed out on getting rich in the ministry. Driscoll is living large in more ways than one as well.
Here is how sloppy and reckless Mark Driscoll’s scholarship is.
He teaches that Song of Solomon 6:13b is talking about a wife doing strip teases or naked dancing.
Here’s the verse, Songs 6:13b Why should you gaze at the Shulammite, As at the dance of the two companies?
The dance of the two companies is call Mahanaim and can be found in Genesis 32:2.
Genesis 32:2 And Jacob said when he saw them (angels), “This is God’s camp (or company).” So he named the place Manhanaim (or two companies or two camps).
Any lay person can look this up. Pastor/teachers should not be making these grievious errors and spreading such false teachings in order to build their churches.
I always knew that sex sells. Heck, Hugh Hefner built and empire with it.
Who knew you could build a church with it?
Has the boy looked in the mirror lately; you know pots and kettles and all.
Dee, just saw your 8:43. Looking forward to it. But I don’t know if what you have will weird me out more than his porn saturated teaching of Solomon’s Song.
Mara
I think this might because it deals with his psyche and it is concerning.
DB
I have some theories on this. He does look in the mirror and but he may see something different than what we see. More tomorrow.
Mara
His entire Song of Solomon is in the gutter. Did you know that he gave the talk at St Andrews ( I think) in Scotland. It cause such a row that they removed it from their website. I sweat those who follow this guy are nuts. I can’t figure out his theologian friends. Maybe they are all repressed and are excited that someone is giving them an excuse to indulge.
Yeah, I read McArthur’s “The Rape of Solomon’s Song” and it linked quotes from that message in Scotland.
I think you and I have had this conversation elsewhere, but honestly, I wonder if Mark Driscoll has the spirit of Jezebel as discribed in Revelation. That Jezebel taught Christians to participate in fornication. The original Greek word is translated both fornication and pornography. Mark Driscoll encourages Christians to participate in sex acts that used to be against our nation’s sodomy laws. He even teaches the Jesus commands women to sevice their husbands in certain sexual activities that many women find to be distasteful. Pun intended.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_law
note that Driscoll ignores 1 Corin 7 or twists it.
“Women will be saved by going back to that role that God has chosen for them. Ladies, if the hair on the back of your neck stands up it is because you are fighting your role in the scripture.”
WOW! That is just plain sick. The role will save you – not Jesus.
Forget the hairs on the back of my neck; I would counter that the little bit of vomit in my mouth is my righteous indignation at the twisting and contorting of scripture just so Driscol can maintain his position of alpha dog.
What does Repristinzer mean?
And where’s this post you’ve been promising? 😉
This man wants (imo) to be A Celebrity – and so does Piper.
Lydia’s description of Driscoll as a “shock jock” is right on the money – a Calvinista Howard Stern, maybe?
I have heard bad, bad things re. women who are in his churches and women who have left… deep harms, great emotional damage.
In my opinion Larry Flynt makes more sense than Driscoll does. At least Flynt’s honest and is under no illusions about religion and human sexuality.
numo “I have heard bad, bad things re. women who are in his churches and women who have left… deep harms, great emotional damage.”
I have been resisting the urge to ask but can resist no longer. What bad things have you heard?
I know things can’t be good because of the stupid things Mark says about women. But I was wondering about the actual repercusions this has brought on the women folk.
http://freedom4captives.wordpress.com/author/freedom4captives/
This is the blog of a female who left his church.
Keep in mind that many people are afraid to speak out. People who have not been through this stuff have no idea how viscious these guys can be. I know because I was on the other side for years. (The bad side)
Unless you have seen it first hand you would not believe the lengths they go to to shut people down and marginalize them. Even the ministers he threw out would not speak out. These guys want to work somewhere again.
@ Mara: as Lydia said, many people are afraid to talk about abusive stuff in Driscoll’s churches – I think for women, it’s so much harder because many are married to abusive and/or patriarchal types.
What little I know was told to me in confidence.
Numo/Mara
Read today’s post. It gets weirder.
@ dee: i know, I know… have known for a while, actually.
I think he has serious psychological problems and should *not* be in charge of anything. but that’s just my opinion; he’s not gonna pay any attention to a woman, now is he?!
numo
I am actually a bit concerned for the females in his life. HIs actions are downright bizarre.
@ dee: i know someone who prays for his wife and kids daily as a direct result of hearing horror stories from other women who were members of Mars Hill…
Lydia,
Freedom from Freedom4captives and I have talked a lot. She isn’t from Driscoll’s church. She’s just studied him extensively.
numo, I understand that these women coming from Mars Hill don’t want people to know their business. Still, these stories seem to be scarce for public consumption. And their scaricity makes it look like these women are made up by people who just like to hate Driscoll.
With the garbage that falls from Driscoll’s mouth it’s hard not to believe the fallout in the lives of women isn’t huge. I’m just not seeing it. And it’s hard to convince others that Mark is dangerous when there is little to no testimony to back it up in the public square.
I really wish that some of these women would come here or elsewhere, under psuedonyms and give a little more specifics.
Numo
Tell them to tell TWW their stories. We will defend their anonymity like rabid dogs.
@ dee: I can pass on the message, but it’s up to them to do the rest. I think a *lot* of people are frightened of Driscoll and the influence he has, even after exiting his churches. Somehow that wall of fear and silence needs to be broken down, but as to who, how and when… I have no answers.
@Mara: yes, they’r real people, and no, they don’t just “hate Driscoll.” From what little I do know, there’s a sense of people needing to work through some extremely painful things and maybe not being ready to talk, or having enough confidence in themselves to talk – I mean, look at blogs like No Longer Qivering. It takes a LOT of courage to be able to speak about abuses, even anonymously.
To give you and example from my own life: I *finally* named the church that booted me – in comments on this blog – almost 9 years after things went down. And… I did so anonymously. It took me that long to feel safe enough to say it out loud.
Please don’t underestimate the grief and trauma experienced by people who have been subject to abuses (spiritual, emotional, physical) and who NEED TIME to be able to speak publicly – if they ever do. Sometimes the privacy of a counselor’s office (whether for individual or group therapy) is the best – and safest – place for things to be spoken about. And… because of confidentiality, things can’t be made public by others (group members and/or therapists).
Hope that makes sense to you.
@ Mara again: I think it’s also very important to take what Driscoll’s defenders say into account… a lot of very harsh, downright cruel comments directed at those who dare to criticize him. I’ve seen it elsewhere and have to say that I would not be inclined to want to speak out – even anonymously – about abuses because of that.
Not to say that Deb and Dee would allow that kind of commenting here; just that the internet can be a very scary and dangerous place, and that – imo – the relative anonymity of text-only communication seems to make people feel free to say things that they would never say in face-to-face convos – mostly sarcastic and hurtful, even violent, remarks.
There’s also the possibility of continuing harassment – something that I’ve experienced. Online harassment is as serious a thing as “real life” stalking… and I do think that there are some Driscoll defenders who monitor comments on a lot of sites and blogs.
I have to wonder if there are people at the Mars Hill offices reading these posts… as there appear to be people from within SGM churches who regularly read posts and comments on SGM Refuge and SGM Survivors.
Food for thought, no?
Numo
We had to delete one of a handful of comments when we last wrote about Driscoll. Let’s just say we were called some foul names. I would imagine those boys are reading “gentlemen’s magazines”, an oxymoron if I ever heard of one.
Numo, just to be clear, I don’t take lightly the trauma of women coming out of MH. I believe it exists and it’s deep.
All I was saying is that I keep hearing that it exists with nothing to back it up. I accept that it exists. I just know the naysayers won’t accept it. They would say to us, you ladies are just trying to stir up trouble where there is none. There is no evidence, no fallout, nothing to indicate that your concern are valid.
Speaking of naysayers, I’m quite surprised no Big D Defenders are commenting. They are really late on the draw here.
@ Dee: I hear you!
@ mara: same – btw, the message about these posts (invitation for comments) is being passed on and from what I hear, there will probably be some interested parties.
ikwym about how the Driscoll defenders work, especially the “you ladies” part.
Sorry to go back so far and comment on this old (in blog years) thread.
Are there no women willing to speak about the damage done to them by Mark Driscoll’s theology concerning women?
Are they being terrorized into silence or is it just not worth it to them?