John Piper’s Response to the question “What should a wife’s submission to her husband look like if he’s an abuser?”

“If the numbers we see in domestic violence were applied to terrorism or gang violence, the entire country would be up in arms, and it would be the lead story on the news every night.”    – Rep. Mark Green


http://www.domesticviolencenomore.com/

First there was Paige Patterson who advised battered wives to “elevate” their men to win them over.

Then there was Bruce Ware who contended that wives who are abused are not being “submissive enough” to their husbands.

Then John Piper was asked the following question:

What should a wife’s submission to her husband look like if he’s an abuser?

My husband often remarks that I have more questions than anyone he knows, and you know what – I think he’s right! Regarding this clip, here are my questions for John Piper and the Calvinista crowd.

Why did Piper chuckle after reading the question? Does he now regret it?

What did he mean by “season”? Is that defined as a day, week, month, year(s)?

Why did Piper use a diversionary tactic and mention “group sex”?

What does his response communicate to those who do not know Christ?

How inclined will a young married woman be to join Bethlehem Baptist Church, knowing that if her husband ever becomes an abuser she will have to endure verbal abuse for a season?

What is John Piper teaching a generation of young men about domestic abuse? That the church will not step in until the verbal abuse escalates to physical abuse?

Is he at all concerned about the children who may be witnessing the abuse?

Would John Piper allow his daughter to endure “a season of verbal abuse” before intervening like he has stated for the other members of his church?

Perhaps you have already seen this video since it was posted on YouTube a couple of years ago. Dear readers, would you please watch this clip and share with us your candid response as well as any questions you may have.

Tomorrow we will provide our own opinions about John Piper’s outrageous response. Stay tuned…

Lydia’s Corner: Deuteronomy 9:1-10:22 Luke 8:4-21 Psalm 69:19-36 Proverbs 12:2-3


Comments

John Piper’s Response to the question “What should a wife’s submission to her husband look like if he’s an abuser?” — 89 Comments

  1. Troubling, very troubling. The laugh. Then he quotes how a woman should react when he asks for something bizarre like “group sex”, saying “Honey, I want so much to follow you, but….” GET REAL!!! If a husband asks a wife to do something sinful or stupid, why must she speak to her husband like he’s a god? Group sex?

    Then he says she should “endure being smacked once”, and THEN go to the church??? UGH!!!! No, she should not endure being smacked once. Don’t wait for a second time.

    Don’t go to the church, ladies. The church leaders are all men, and possibly buddies with the offender. No way, Jose. Do NOT go to the church leaders if you’re being smacked, ladies. Go to the cops first, then go to your family members that will protect you, but whatever you do, do NOT go to the church leaders.

  2. Tom R

    Thank you for your response. I know of a church in my area in which a pastor was socking his wife, and maybe even his kids. She got out of Dodge and called the head pastor for help. She was told to return to the husband and then the church would help her. Thank God she didn’t listen to this pretender to the pastorate.

    You are right. Call the cops. There are far too many pastors who won’t take this seriously.

    I wonder, would Piper put up with being beaten by an intruder for an evening?

    That group sex quote was almost embarrassing. When will these pastors come to understand that going to seminary does not make them experts on all of life?

  3. Dee, I think Piper has written some *very* peculiar things about marriage in the past, but you might have to spend serious time on his site in order to find the material I’m (vaguely) remembering.

  4. How can a man who supposedly is so dedicated to God’s glory, and esteemed as intellectually superior behave and speak in this bizarre manner? How shameful!

  5. Hello Dee: It is hard for me to be really subjective here. Mainly because my biological father physically abused my mother. I lost respect for him. I like most pastors have been involved in distasteful activities where it is difficult to intervene. Irregardless of that i am always on the side of the woman
    I’ve been married over 30 yrs. I of course as all men must avow we are somtimes at a loss for what our mate is thinking or doing.I admit i have done some baptist “cussing” which is when through frustation U just get up and leave the room slamming the door behind U.Now to my opinion of those with the attitude of John Piper. I think they are in error to think a wife has to obey her husband unless he is asking her to do some abhorrent thing. I am also a litle surprised at some of his verbage. If i had consulted my wife about group sex i don’t think she would have tried to reason with me about it not being a good idea. It does make U wonder about all kinds of abuse be it church or domestic life.I remember a few years ago when southwestern Seminary dismissed an. . excellent professor. They were bold enough to say they won’t allow a woman to teach a man.I have never pastored a church that didn’t have more faithful women in it than men. And i might add in many instances the women were better educated. Jack

  6. I was as nauseated watching this yesterday as I was watching it when it was initially published. I cannot imagine how he thinks his position is even remotely pastoral, moral, or anywhere in line with anything anywhere in the bible. I am appalled that he spoke of such a pernicious evil so lightly. I’d really like him to talk to women who have lost their children because they remained in a violent relationship. I could go on, but I won’t. I really enjoy this blog by the way.

  7. Either he is completely clueless about what abuse is and how it affects the victim, or he implicitly believes that women are deserving of some level of abuse, and it is not an absolute outrage. “Verbal unkindness” — is he, a minister of the word really that naive about the power of words to destroy? Everything in this clip points to a belief that women should be humiliated — by cruel words, by slapping, by having to go through this incredible wordplay about how “sweet” it would be to follow her husband’s leadership (grovelling anyone??) and then, when she reaches desperation, to humiliate herself to the church leadership (who, doubtless, are all men) by sharing her pain. To minimise abuse is another way of saying that women don’t matter very much.

  8. Physical abuse of a spouse is a crime, and Piper’s suggestion is to allow the church to cover up a crime, thereby aiding and abetting the crime after the fact and further, aiding and abetting the crime should the abuse be repeated. I would suggest that the church leadership should be prosecuted if the abuse is repeated.

    The biblical standard is mutual submission, with the husband giving up his right to life to his wife (the most extreme form of submission for her welfare). A single act of abuse destroys his submission and therefore renders any obligation of submission on her part null and void.

    And the church needs to PREACH it from the pulpit and TEACH it in the classroom and small group meetings. And then LIVE it by helping the woman and her children to get out of the clutches of a violent man, who is by definition dangerous to them. They should help her find and pay for an attorney to get a protective order and a divorce in law from him, since he has already divorced her in fact by destroying the marriage through violence.

  9. The sad thing is that some of these men WOULD give this advice to their daughters. Not saying Piper is one of them.

    But to these men, the authority of the husband (a.k.a. the lord of the manor) is so important and so engrained in them, they must protect it from everything, including from any weakness within themselves. Empathy for their own flesh and blood would have to be put down for the sake of the golden calf of Male Headship which is becoming entwined to and inseprable from the pure milk of the gospel.

  10. Ever wonder what these men would do if their wives were like that? Let’s say she wants group sex or she is constantly hitting him. Piper is pretty tiny so his wife, Noel, could probably hurt him if she wanted to.
    :o)

  11. It is clear to me that Piper holds his man-made doctrine of gender hierarchy with a HIGHER priority than pastoral care for an abused wife. Let such teachings be banished among believers. Piper needs to repent.

  12. Piper needs to be ignored.

    Anyone that promotes such barbarity should lose his audience and become obscure.

  13. This video remains as disturbing to me today as when it first surfaced. I would like to give Piper the benefit of the doubt that perhaps he was caught off guard and gave some of the worst advice possible because he didn’t think it through or that he was totally ignorant of the dynamics in abusive relationships. But in light of the criticism he has received over this, he has had ample opportunity to retract or amend his statements on this very important issue and has not. For me, this removes any doubt. Piper understands the ramifications his advice has for women and children and believes God prefers it that way.

  14. Dee, you wrote:

    “…How inclined will a young married woman be to join Bethlehem Baptist Church, knowing that if her husband ever becomes an abuser she will have to endure verbal abuse for a season?…”

    If I were a young woman who just watched this guy regurgitate all those mouth fulls of (insert what you feel appropriate here) and then see at the end it’s from a site called desiring god? I would’nt want anything to do with his god or his religion.

  15. Whoever said that Piper puts his complementarian doctrine above battered women was absolutely correct. In his address at the 2008 Chicago True Woman conference he said that gender roles are “central to the cross” and “right there at calvary.” I’m not sure if he actually believes that his personal idea of complementarianism is really an essential thing, right there with calvary or if he will just go to any lengths to promote what has been his bread and butter. He definitely is not just an interested party – he has monetary value invested into this theology.
    Piper puts comp theology above everything.

    And he has a penchant for answering questions with very little, if any, grace and Biblical backing. How on earth he became so popular is beyond me.

  16. I first published this video to youtube account, because I didn’t want to link to his ministry. I did however write an article asking if Piper can’t understand the woman’s position with domestic violence maybe he should hear from the children. Tell this man what it is like to hide under the bed due to fear when ‘unkindness’ is happening. I even listed his address. They were not happy with me – oh well!

    Piper has had plenty of time to explain himself, or apologize or whatever. His response was the same as it always is when they are called out – silence.

    I just recently realized that they removed the video completely from their desiring god site. Its just like the Saddleback church – they removed their (ahem) boo boo, but called it ‘taken out of context’. Which as far as I’m concern that was a fib on their part.

    It’s quite amazing to me that they ask people to correct their wrongs, and repent and turn from their sin – yet their own pride does not allow them to do the same. Instead they take it down, and hope it goes away.

    http://eaandfaith.blogspot.com/2009/09/john-pipers-ignorance-is-killing.html

  17. “. I would like to give Piper the benefit of the doubt that perhaps he was caught off guard and gave some of the worst advice possible because he didn’t think it through or that he was totally ignorant of the dynamics in abusive relationships.”

    They never make videos unprepared.

    “Whoever said that Piper puts his complementarian doctrine above battered women was absolutely correct. In his address at the 2008 Chicago True Woman conference he said that gender roles are “central to the cross” and “right there at calvary.”

    Yet, he took much time off to take care of his marriage. He announced that fact. I am not making it up. If they were living out the “God designed” gender roles, why the need?

  18. As someone who lived almost 25 years in an abusive marriage, to say this is deeply disturbing is an understatement. I have yet to understand the ignorance and lack of concern for abused women on the part of pastors but I have experienced it first hand. For many years I never told anyone what was going on in our “Christian” home. I thought (wrongly) that this was just between my husband and me, that that the children weren’t really affected. Then, one of my sons began to physically abuse me in ways that I knew I was in danger of getting seriously hurt. I could not bear to see my child become like his father and I reached out for help from my pastors. I was not believed and, to this day, I still am not believed. Even my husband leaving didn’t seem to make any difference. (My now ex-husband didn’t like my setting boundaries like, “If you touch me or the children again I will call 911”). I tried hard to help the pastors and elders understand what I was experiencing. Some of us even formed a task force (led by a pastor) and tried to start a ministry to women in our church who had/were being abused. As part of the outcome of the task force, as ironic as it is, my church hosted a conference for area pastors on DV and the church. Some of the pastors acknowledge the right things about what should be done if a woman is abused. However, they can’t identify who those women are unless she has obvious signs of abuse like black eyes and broken bones. It’s the “good old boys” club and women are exaggerating or guilty of not “submitting”. I finally left my church home of over 25 years. It’s sad that it came to that and the wounds inflicted by my church are deep but I’m finally in a place where I can begin to heal.

    For those looking for an excellent resource on this topic, Peace and Safety in the Christian Home (PASCH) “is a loose coalition of academics, professionals, clergy and lay people who are alarmed by domestic violence in the Christian home” and are taking steps to address this problem. Their website is http://www.peaceandsafety.com/

    Kudos to all of you who speak out on our behalf.

  19. First of all, let me say that I was in an emotionally abusive marriage for years, to the point of ending up in a women’s shelter, protective orders, a threat on my life, etc so I am very qualified to speak on the subject.

    I think you are being very unfair to John Piper. He did not chuckle, he clearly smiled and took a deep breath because he realized it was a very difficult subject and no matter how he answered he was going to be scrutinized by people. It was like he was thinking “oh boy, here I go”.

    His answer was very brief..,.there’s no way he could have gone into the subject like he wanted to. He was trying to give some brief points.

    What I totally give him credit for is trying to give the Biblical solution. The Biblical solution CAN work IF the church is a good church. As we know, all churches are not good. John Piper has faith that men can be broken and can change.

    I don’t think a women should leave her husband after the first unkind or abusive words. Being hit once? It depends on the severity of it and if there’s a pattern that follows. People make mistakes. I think all he’s trying to say is give it some time to see if the church can help the husband see the error of his ways. I will admit feeling very uncomfortable talking to the male leaders of my church about the problem. I was going to a PCA church, and I had to remind myself that these poor pastors listened to my story, and then had to listen to my husband ( a pathological liar) so they had to try to determine who was being truthful. After awhile they knew I was the truthful one..the whole time they made it clear that they didn’t believe in separation, but that if I felt threatened they would help place me someplace safe. They probably could have handled it better, but they certainly could have handled it worse. I ended up taking care of myself, getting myself to a shelter and getting the help I needed. It probably is a wise thing to get help from outside the church like I did. The people helping you are certainly going to be more objective. And abused women should be helped by other women in my opinion.

    I was not physically abused for the most part. I did get hit a few times and have things thrown at me, holes punched in walls, verbal threats, etc. John Piper believes in the sanctity of marriage and he’s just saying not to throw in the towel, but try for awhile. John Piper certainly believes a woman should get help and get away if she feels she’s in danger.

    Something I’ve wondered about after reading a few blogs like this that are generally critical of everyone and everything…..is it the church’s responsibility to fix dysfunctional people?

  20. Anonymous,

    I am wondering how deeply the unkind words sunk into your soul because you do not deserve to have meanhearted and threatening words simed at you like a weapon.

    I was just trying to talk to a woman I know that is in an unhealthy relationship where I have only known of hte unkind words but unkind words can kill a person’s spirit.

    Isn’t Piper one of those eternal subordination of the Son adherents?

  21. Twisted. Sick. Evil.

    The only healthy response to a husband abusing you is to let him see your back as you walk out the door. Since when was it Godly to enable your husband to do evil?

    Twit

  22. Anonymous said:

    “I was not physically abused for the most part. I did get hit a few times and have things thrown at me, holes punched in walls, verbal threats, etc.”

    Anonymous,

    So what’s your marital status now?

  23. Anonymous 9:19 PM

    I am most surprised by your comment. Your response does not reflect the typical perspective of an abused individual.

    If you think that most people on this blog and others are saying to leave a husband after an “unkind” word then I think you have not read carefully. One hit is one hit too many and it is a reason to leave the home. Once someone hits, the barrier is broken down and the second hit comes much more easily.

    Your comment show an incredible lack of empathy to people in pain despite your protestations to having experienced pain. Is it the church’s responsibility to fix dysfunctional people? Hmmmm-isn’t that why Jesus died for us? The church is for the let down and looking not for arrogant people who have it all down pat. In fact, it IS the responsibility of the church to protect a woman from her husband’s abuse if she comes to the church for help.

    Frankly, your response is schizophrenic and I don’t get it. Something does not fit here.

  24. Anonymous,

    I’m very sorry that you had to go through such hell. I fully believe that God can redeem any of our experiences but what you went through grieves His heart and mine, also.

    “I was not physically abused for the most part. I did get hit a few times and have things thrown at me, holes punched in walls, verbal threats, etc.” These behaviors are all aggressive AND illegal. Your husband could have gone to jail for any one of them. An abuser doesn’t need to hit his victim if he can get her to do what he wants by threats and intimidation.

    I am curious as to what you consider “the Biblical solution.” I have searched the scriptures to understand how God would have me handle my own situation and I don’t see anywhere God says to stay with a husband who physically threatens, intimidates, or assaults me. Granted, I stayed through all of that and more but it was because of what I had been taught (mostly by men, I might add), not what I learned by searching the scriptures on my own. Agape love seeks the best for the other person and brings glory to God. It is not loving to allow the other person to continue is his evil ways nor (as I have learned by experience) is it loving my children well, and it certainly does not bring honor and glory to God. When a husband hits his wife even once (or anyone their intimate partner), something is seriously wrong. A woman putting space between her and her aggressive husband is not permanent separation or divorce. It acknowledges the seriousness of the incident. The husband can be invited to a changed relationship but from a safe distance.

    When a woman tells anyone about her abuse, you can be pretty sure that she is revealing only the tip of the iceberg. Consciously or unconsciously, she is testing that person to see how what she is sharing will be received and, especially, whether or not she will be believed. If the “experts” (DV shelther personnel, professionals who work in the field, etc) find it necessary to do a safety assessment when they encounter these situations, it is arrogance on the pastor’s part to think he knows better. It’s sad that the secular world is doing a much better job of caring for abused women than the church is doing.

  25. DB

    Anonymous’ response lacks something. She was either so abused that she doesn’t get it or she is so entrenched in patriarchy that she doesn’t get it or she is not who she claims to be.

  26. “John Piper has faith that men can be broken and can change. ”

    So do I. However, what Piper is teaching is the exact opposite of what Paul taught in 1 Corin 5. I am speaking of Piper’s advice for women when their husband wants group sex.

    That is why I asked earlier if the husband is a professing believer or not. What Piper is teaching has huge implications for the church, men and wives. He is teaching women to enable evil. We are to flee from evil.

    Piper’s teaching actually enables and excuses abuse until it is life and death. Piper actually puts women in danger.

    You sound like you are in a patriarchal church. I certainly hope you do not have daughters.

  27. Had I had been asked the same question as John Piper — What should a wife’s submission to her husband look like if he’s an abuser? — group sex is definitely NOT the first thing that would have come to mind.

  28. Yeah, Deb. Don’t tell me he doesn’t have his own sexual issues to deal with. Whose mind even goes there when the subject of abuse comes up?

  29. Abigail

    I am so sorry for all that you have been through. I know of an abusive situation in which the woman was chastised by the church and the husband remained a deacon. They said she wasn’t being submissive. She, too, left her church. What happened to you was a travesty.

    I am becoming increasingly concerned about the lack of concern that some in the church show to abused children and women. In fact, read the post on Friday. I have decided that the Wartburg Watch needs to find a way to reveal the churches who do these sorts of things and I am working on an idea.

    I am tired of the same old garbage that spews from the mouth of hyper-controlling men. Media can be very, very effective in making churches pay attention.

    It is time to shine the light into some very dark corners.And if the church won’t police itself then maybe the church outside must do it.

  30. Dee and Deb…please note that just as women were obtaining rights such as financial (married women who became widows would have bank accounts frozen until husbands will probate) and other rights such as civil protection from abuse and spouse abuse becoming illegal…..

    The Danvers statement was a response to all that.

    If we look deeply at the culture at the time, very few were the bra burners on TV. They just got the media attention. Few were the Gloria Steinhams. Just like my brother who was from the Vietnam era says,most of them were not protesters with long hair on TV. They were wearing Oxford shirts, playing football and on their way to college.

    In fact, most of the agitators at Kent, UofM and other places were not even in those colleges! They were media events.

    What Piper is communicating to me in this video is a man who hates the fact that women are protected by the civil authorities. he wants males to be in control. Women have too many choices when they look to civil authorities. Take abuse for a season? What would a civil court judge say about that? That is why I am totally against a pass for pastors on such things. They are not reporting spouse abuse,child abuse or even pedophilia. We have too many examples out there from Christa’s blog and the news!

    Time to hold them accountable. Let us get their pass on reporting laws changed. When it hits their pocketbook, their hard hearts might pay attention.

  31. Note in the video that early on Piper sets up a false dichotomy of “two masters” for the wife so she is constantly in a situation of trying to make sure she is obeying the right master at the right time.

    What lies about our relationship with Christ! After all, we have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Even females….Mr. Piper.

    Note how Piper does not mention what to do about the husband. Know why? Because they believe that only God deals directly
    with males on such things. Whereas God deals with women through males.

    I am telling you there is deep seated abherrant doctrine and cultic thinking here. They have elevated this to salvic doctrine. Notice that Piper hints at this in the beginning of the video.

    We must get the word out about the abherrant doctrinal teaching that undergirds his false teaching about our Lord and His Word on this video.

  32. I am the anon at 9:19–will try to get back with you all later as I am at work right now. I can’t possibly take the time to go through all the comments right now.

  33. Anononymous @ 9:19,

    Thanks for checking in. I would appreciate your sharing more with us on your perspective when you can.

  34. Dee,

    Thank you for your kind words. I can hardly wait to see what you and Deb are cooking up now!

    I know of a situation where the husband was a deacon and verbally and emotionally abusive to his wife. She finally went to the pastors but to no avail. She simply wasn’t believed. You know – silly, hysterical, exaggerating woman. The pastors knew the husband and he couldn’t possibly do such things. If he did occasionally “slip”, she must have provoked him to it. I had occasion to ask one of the pastors involved what they did when there was an accusation of family discord or abuse against someone in leadership. He told me that, in such a case, they would ask the person involved to step down from leadership and give him/her a chance to work on the marriage/family problems. But, of course, that wasn’t done. I’m getting tired of double talk from these hyper-authoritarian pastors.

  35. Greetings,

    The most painful childhood memories I have are of the violent arguments that would occasionally occur at home between my parents. My father and I were working on an erector set project when an argument began. This was upsetting, but imagine the horror when my father picked up this project and hurled it across the room at my mother. It missed her, crashed against the wall, and landed in a twisted heap.

    The last and most violent episode took place while I was in another room. As the physical and verbal violence escalated, I could stand it no longer and let out a loud cry and began sobbing. The struggle quickly ended and my father stormed out of the house and drove off.

    This is no doubt only a glimpse, a small taste, of what a women married to an abusive husband must experience. And I am truly sorry for those who have been abused.

    The Biblical solution is for the man to see his sin, ask for forgiveness of God and his wife/family, and demonstrate genuine repentance. Only then can the marriage begin to be put back together.

    It is up to the wife as to whether or not she remains at home. The Lord can use her to turn her husband’s heart to Himself whether she lives under the same roof or not.

    Anonymous9:19 –

    Thank you for your thoughtful, detailed perspective on that video. I agree with your perspective.

    You asked, “is it the church’s responsibility to fix dysfunctional people?

    My answer is no. It is our responsibility to grow in our relationship with Jesus. It is our responsibility to make wise choices and do all to the glory of God. AND it is our responsibility to join together with other Christians (aka church) where we can encourage, exhort, and help one another daily to do all of the above.

  36. Concerned2, how absolutely awful. I am so sorry that you suffered such horror. I wish there was a way we could all go into each home where a family needs help and protect the innocent while calling the abusers to repent. I hope you have received love and help over the years to help you process all of what you experienced at such an unbelievably tender age.

    I would love to see all abusers repent. Get the help they need. I would love to see all victims recognize that sticking around will not help their abusers to change.

  37. Concerned2,

    Thank you for sharing your childhood experience of what it was like to grow up with an abusive father. I appreciate the compassion you are showing by opening up on this topic.

    Let’s work together on behalf of the victims of domestic abuse. I will be providing what I hope to be helpful information in tomorrow’s post.

  38. Concerned2

    What an awful story. I am sorry for the loss of innocence at such a young age.

    I disagree with you about the church. I believe that the church exists to help those who are in pain from dysfunctional lives. I do not believe that there is one fully functional person amongst us.

    God called us into community to help one another. The Christian life is relational. Jesus could have “healed” us of our pain and sent us on our merry way. Instead He called us into community.

    So many churches put up a front that they are together and perfect little Christians, all seemingly happy, healthy and wise. We put on a mask of “hale hearty and well met” and yet we are dying inside. And the watching world knows we are deceiving them and ourselves.

    Today in your church (and in any church) there are those who are abused, those who are doing the abusing, those with mental illness, those with broken and dysfunctional relationships, people struggling with pornography, alcohol and drug addiction, people who are depressed, some even contemplating suicide.There are those who think they are humble and are egocentric, those who are greedy and would step on their own grandmother to make another buck. There are those who would sell their souls to pretend they are good Christian leaders.

    The church is to cope with this and, when it doesn’t, it misses out on the real meaning of the body of believers. Jesus came because we are dysfunctional. He did not cure us but He gave us grace and forgiveness. As my pastor says, “Even on my best days my motives are mixed.” We are all still struggling.

    I would love to find a church in which there is no dysfunction. From my reading of Scripture, we will, one day but not now. So, if you are in a church that is not filled with dysfunctional people, I would say that you are deceived. Come join the community of the walking wounded. It is so much easier than pretending that we are all so “together.”

  39. Okay, there’s a lot to respond too….I can at least start while supper is cooking.

    To the question of “is it the church’s responsibility to fix dysfunctional people” I think Concerned2 answered the question perfectly by saying “My answer is no. It is our responsibility to grow in our relationship with Jesus. It is our responsibility to make wise choices and do all to the glory of God. AND it is our responsibility to join together with other Christians (aka church) where we can encourage, exhort, and help one another daily to do all of the above.”

    I am, of course, all for the church to HELP dysfunctional people, counsel them from scripture, be their friend and do the best they can to help. I think many of you are laying too much at the feet of pastors. When I see what pastors face continually these days it’s a wonder any one wants to be one.

    I feel that people here are being very unfair to John Piper. He certainly emphasized over and over that it is not acceptable for a man to act that way. Was his choice of words perfect? Probably not…but it was an impromptu question. I am wondering if by the choice of the word “smacked” (I think that is what he said, I don’t have speakers on this computer to re-listen right now) he meant “slapped”. I really feel that all he was trying to say was for the woman to hang in there if she feels she can for “a season” and give grace, faith, and the church a chance. John obviously is against divorce, and he doesn’t want to counsel people to easily give up. I think what he was saying is that a season is different for everyone. For me, that season was 18 years. For others it could be a month or a year. No, I am not in a patriarchal church and no, you shouldn’t fear for my sons and daughter and yes, I was truly in a very emotionally abusive marriage for 18 years.

    As far as the group sex comment….I think he was just trying to give an example of a very despicable thing. Perhaps he had even counseled someone recently and that came to mind first. Should he have used that particular example? I certainly don’t like it.

    When I was having one of the hardest points in my marriage (found out that that I had been cheated on never mind a ton of emotional abuse and a threat on my life with a gun) I went to a conference and John Piper was the speaker. The message was incredibly powerful and helpful. It was on God’s Sovereignty and His care for us. I’ll never forget it. I needed more than anything at that point in my life to remember that God was in control, that everything would be okay and that God cared for me very much.

    John Piper has probably more recorded video and written word than most anyone around. Certainly there would be lots of other evidence of him saying women must submit to abuse if that is what he believes. I just think a short clip is being taken out of context. I have read that he doesn’t believe in remarriage after divorce (even if the innocent spouse was cheated on). I definitely disagree with him on that. I think some of you really need to examine yourselves and see if you are letting dislike of a certain theological view to influence how you perceive what someone is saying.

  40. Abigail said “When a woman tells anyone about her abuse, you can be pretty sure that she is revealing only the tip of the iceberg. Consciously or unconsciously, she is testing that person to see how what she is sharing will be received and, especially, whether or not she will be believed. If the “experts” (DV shelther personnel, professionals who work in the field, etc) find it necessary to do a safety assessment when they encounter these situations, it is arrogance on the pastor’s part to think he knows better. It’s sad that the secular world is doing a much better job of caring for abused women than the church is doing.”

    I agree with you on this. In fact, in my first post I said that I determined that I had better get help outside of the church. I knew my pastors were not equipped to help me and didn’t have a clue of what I had been through. I do think it’s best for an abused woman to go through the local domestic violence agency people as they are the experts. She can still receive spiritual care from the local church as well if she wishes.

  41. I am in a profession where I work with people who are both perpetrators and victims of domestic violence. Its an ugly situation that should not be tolerated for any length of time. The effects are long lasting and go far beyond just the spouse/partner who is being harmed whether verbally or physically. The effects on children and their mental health including their ability to form healthy relationships can be horrific. Then there’s PTSD. I could go on.

    It is not the church’s responsibility to fix people. The church should avoid knowingly giving advice that is likely to cause physical or psychological damage.

    With respect to the video – it was taken originally from John Piper’s site. He apparently chose it as a stand alone statement. In addition, I cannot imagine a context wherein it would be an appropriate response.

    I’m sure Mr. Piper does not believe that men should abuse their wives. I can’t imagine anyone would say that. The trouble with his statements is that they take the issue lightly and the woman lightly. She is God’s daughter and should be treated with respect and honor — whether you are complementarian or egalitarian. John Piper’s words and demeanor in this video suggest he believes women are lesser citizens.

    I have a great deal of respect for the reformed church even if I don’t agree with some of its doctrines. If you want the view of another reformed pastor try Mark Driscoll.

  42. The ladies here have already written about Mark Driscoll. I know. I just went looking at them today. And it’s a good thing the comments are closed because I would have probably commented on those posts.

    And John Piper is a big fan of Mark Driscoll. And both of them have some very bad views about men and women and roles.

  43. I don’t agree with a lot of what Mark Driscoll says (especially about women), but he is very loud and public in his abhorrence of any kind of abuse or neglect of women. It’s a remarkable contrast to John Piper.

  44. Nadine said:

    “The trouble with his (Piper’s) statements is that they take the issue lightly and the woman lightly. She is God’s daughter and should be treated with respect and honor — whether you are complementarian or egalitarian. John Piper’s words and demeanor in this video suggest he believes women are lesser citizens.”

    I absolutely agree! This is one of the major reasons why we highlighted this video. John Piper has had a long career as a pastor (he has been at Bethlehem Baptist Church for over 30 years). Surely, after reviewing the clip he should have seem the problems we saw with it. They didn’t have to post the video on the Desiring God website, and they could have re-taped it. It is very telling that they removed it.

  45. Mara,

    Perhaps we should allow for comments on our older posts. I’m certainly open to feedback because our readership has expanded quite a bit over the last year. The Mark Driscoll posts were written almost two years ago. I believe Dee will be writing about Driscoll next week. Maybe you could share your thoughts then.

  46. Smacked for a season, abuse for a season? I don’t care if he doesn’t believe in divorce…how in the world does it help the victim or the abuse to simply suck it up before going for help?

    He seems to me, that he is more concerned about his theology of gender roles than he is about the very real abuse that happens in some Christian marriages. His answer has more to do with the woman and her 2 masters scenario than the very real danger she is in…..horrible advice, in my opinion. Worry about roles in the marriage once she and any children are safe and the abuser has shown a true change of heart. Otherwise, all this gender role mumbo jumbo means nothing if the abuse continues…..ugh!

    If a woman was being terrorized by a stranger, would he consel the woman to go the church first before calling the police? How about robbery, murder, etc….

    Piper should know better….

  47. Hey all

    Piper’s comment was not impromptu. He does a lot of these. Now, he has removed it from his site. This was his well thought out opinion. He has not clarified or retracted this statement.

    If Piper does not believe this, then he should make a statement to the contrary. I think he has a hard time imagining that one of the “patriarchs” could do such a thing so he is somewhat flippant.

    There is never, ever, any excuse for being flippant about abuse in any form. I have just received a statement Piper made about the reason for harsh punishment of a child. I will bring it up on Friday.There is something off about his view on this stuff and I am concerned his thoughts will be copied by his devotees.

  48. Why do they remove the video and not comment on it? They must be embarrassed yet not upset enough to say they made a mistake. I think they still agree with what was said, they just don’t want to deal with the fall out. Once again, the supposed big boy comps who act like wusses instead of real men who either stand for their words or apologize. Instead they pretend it never existed. Such manly courage….

  49. doubtful

    A real man would protect the woman and call the police on the man. While waiting for the police, the pastor should tell the abuser that he will punch his lights out if he touches one hair on his wife’s head. Instead, these men dream up scenarios on how to tell Mr. Patriarch that his woman really, doesn’t want to disappoint his but she doesn’t really, truly like the idea of group sex. Barf! Bunch of weirdos if you ask me.

  50. The video may be weird and even awkward, but if you really listen he is not saying that women need to submit to abuse.

    You’ve also got to remember that in a ministry as big as his he doesn’t post his own videos most likely. A webmaster probably posted it for him…he got some negative comments about it and said “you know, I don’t even like how I came across in that video, please remove it”. It would be nice if he would respond to an inquiry about the video though.

  51. Anon 9:19,

    In another clip John Piper was asked who handles his Twitter account. He responded: “I do.” Then he confirmed that every comment tweeted comes directly from him.

    Piper is not only a seasoned pastor but a role model for many young men who want to follow in his footsteps. Those were his words and he alone is responsible for uttering them. No excuses….

  52. You know, I’ve heard from many Piper defenders that he’s really a nice guy. And I totally believe them and I believe that Piper, in fact, is a nice guy.

    The problem isn’t with his character. The problem is with his ignorance and his doctrine. And each fuels the other.

    He is ignorant of abuse, therefore he can’t imagine it exists, at least not to the extent that it does.

    He is overzealous for his sacred-cow/pet-doctrine of Male Headship. He believes it is central to the gospel rather than a side issue. He believes Male Headship WORKS every time it’s tried, IF it is tried Piper style. And If it is actually tried, Piper style, there would be no abuse.

    This is a dangerous and even deadly mix of ignorance and devotion-to-pet-doctrine. It shows up in this clip.

    I feel (I may be wrong and don’t mind if Piper comes here and says different) Piper still believes this and wishes that people would just accept his words and ‘do’ Male Headship right so he wouldn’t have to remove videos like this that reveal what he really truly believes.

    Somehow, Piper misses the fact that power corrupts and absolute power corrupt absolutely. He thinks, somehow, that this FACT concerning human nature magically gets cancelled out when it goes on between men and women.
    It doesn’t. It is alive and well and corrupting many marriages.

  53. Anon 9:19, I am so glad you got out! I am so sorry that you suffered for as long as you did. (I was in a bad marriage for 22 years.) It’s been seven years since I left and the PTSD I deal with is pretty severe. Oh, I wish the therapy was helping more but since I just started a few months ago, I’ll give it a bit more time. If nothing else you and I can clearly persevere, can’t we. 😉

    I just wanted to say I know nothing about John Piper’s theology and don’t really care. (I’ve always found it abhorrent that people “follow” other Christians so do my best to stick to the bible and away from the super stars.) My reaction to his irresponsible, horrendous advice is truly a response to his irresponsible, horrendous advice. I used to believe what he said was true and God has had to spend the past seven years in very painful ways teaching me otherwise. I have learned the very hard way that God had NO desire for me to stay and to hear a man who KNOWS that others listen to him say anything like he said is a very serious matter. He is the one who posted that site as someone above said, as a stand alone. He didn’t think it was taken out of context. He has had months (or is it years?) to clear up any misunderstanding and to my knowledge, has remained silent.

    You can say it’s OK to stay for a season. But the experts (and in my personal experience God) says, “No! Get out that first night.” I’m not saying don’t go back in the morning to work on things. I am saying that with the very first hit, go. Immediately. NOW. Doesn’t mean you are ending the marriage. It means you are going to a safe spot immediately and are teaching your husband that it is not OK for him to lay a finger on you except for in the most loving of ways. To tell a woman to stay for a night of it it NOT OK. NOT. I don’t care who says it is. It is NOT.

  54. Anon

    I happen to know people who have called his ministry protesting that video. They get a neutral response. They say nothing about his repudiation of the video or his response. There is a reason for that. He is a seasoned pastor, he know exactly what he is doing and, until I hear differently, stands by what he said. Wait until Friday. He has expressed disturbing views on child punishment.

  55. Mara
    I believe you have hit the nail on the head. This is definitely tied to the issue of male headship. I have come to the understanding that guys such as Piper really believe that such a thing is true and, if applied, works.

    Why doesn’t it? Because it is based in the OT which clearly pointed out that leadership, when expressed by man, becomes corrupt because man is, and always will be, sinful. The NT bases its leadership model on the only Man who did not, and cannot sin.

    These guys want to interject a man between Jesus and women.The problem is that man may be forgiven but he is still a sinner.

    Men such as Piper, Mohler, Mahaney and others seem to think that the sin these guys practice will be “nice” sins such as gluttony and overwork. Somehow, the serious sins are swept under the rug, as if they don’t exist. Yet they do. I know, I have seen it.

    I remember a woman approaching me, telling me how embarrassing it would be if the church found out that he husband was using drugs. I reassured her that the pastors themselves had terrible issues and that all of them, as well as all of us, were pretending that we were just peachy keen.

    That is the real sin of the church. Actually believing that we have conquered all the “bad” sins. And this prevents people like this woman, from confessing and dealing with the horrors in her own life. We all stick on a smiley face, pastors even more so. They preach sermons, pretend they are the “aw shucks, humble good old boy,” confess to occasionally getting irritable, the congregation laughs and everyone likes to think that all is well. And then when the really big sin comes out, people launch into abject denial that it can’t be true or feel betrayed.
    The pastors have set us up for this response and we, the people have bought it, even though there is nothing in Scripture that should lead us to believe such a thing. In fact Scripture teaches us that we should be shocked if there is no serious sin in another’ life.

    Let me tell of you of one small group of people I knew who were committed Christians-long time members of a church, Bible study leaders, deacons, etc. In this small group I discovered was (these are separate people) an alcoholic, wife abuser, internet porn/sex addict, drug user, severe anger expresser, mental illness with hospitalization, someone with an STD. I found this out after knowing all of them for about 5 years.

    We all play games with the doctrine of sin. The bottom line is this. We look to Jesus who is our mediator, friend, confessor, and Head. There is no one between us and Him. We have been given grace and forgiveness through His sacrifice alone. There is no need for a male “head.”

    If we were to be allowed a bird’s eye view of the lives of men such as Piper, Driscoll, Mahaney, Mohler and others, I am willing to bet, based on my understanding of Scripture, we would find significant sin that would shock everyone.

    And then we would have to evaluate why we are shocked. Because, in our own lives, today, in our very families, we struggle with our own sin.Yet we all like to pretend that our pastor, our Christian rock star leader (fill in the name) is somehow different. Even old Piper had to take “time off” for some undisclosed “issues.” And, for Piper apologists out there, get over it-there was a problem.Stop trying to pretend he is some sort of giant who is different than the rest of us.

    Nope- its time to get real with our faith and admit that we are all failures and that is why Christ had to come.

    Instead there are churches that seem to love to concentrate on the doctrine of sin in the flock and write books on the cross centered life. Except, the leaders get a pass. They get to abuse the flock, ruthlessly confront them with sin and skip la dee dah into the sunset, confessing only their own nice little sins, and hiding the darkness within. This is a lie straight from the evil one. Pastors are no different in this area than anyone else. But we pretend they are and some of them like to get away with it.

    That is why Piper can’t go there on this issue. If he does, his nice package of men being the perfect little rulers of their own domains falls away and he must confront the evil within those male “heads.”

  56. ” don’t agree with a lot of what Mark Driscoll says (especially about women), but he is very loud and public in his abhorrence of any kind of abuse or neglect of women. It’s a remarkable contrast to John Piper.”

    Hi Nadine. I agreed with everything you said until I got to this. As someone who has listened and watched a ton of Driscoll, I have to point out that Driscoll’s actions and words do not match. He might abhor spouse abuse but his actions and very public teachings actually encourage it indirectly.

    We have talked her before about his very own words. He says he filters his wife’s emails because the women in the church are gossips. He said he knocked on every door in her dorm and told the guys to stay away from her. I could go on and on. His teaching on oral sex and other things are set up’s for what husbands should expect from wives, including that it is her duty.

    He wrote a few years ago after the Haggard scandal that pastors wives let themselves go and that is why they stray. (He had to take that down because of the outcry. but his putting it up showed his heart)

    In effect, he blames women. He teaches that women are more easily deceived and are gossips. So, what he teaches is that the Cross was not enough for women. They cannot be born again out of these sins.

    If I had to guess, I would say Driscoll has all the earmarkings of an abuser, himself. And I think he is a false teacher. He also elevates these secondary doctrines to salvic.

    I pray that no one will go to Driscoll for advice on this issue. His words and actions do not match.

  57. Stunned

    Statistics clearly show that a man who hits once is likely to hit again. Its just like pedophiles. I recently had the head of a Christian organization tell me that, if Eddie Long did sexually abuse boys, then, if he confesses, he can be restored. See, it’s simple. If one confesses one sins, all is well-no problem-go back to working with boys again. Very, very naive and dangerous.

    Here’s the problem. The recidivism rate on pedophilia and wife beaters is enormous and the chances are, even with therapy, they will abuse again. For pedophilia, the numbers are around 90%.

    When will people get it through their heads that some issues cannot be cured with a “gee, honey, please don’t go there?” We must accept the depths of depravity in the human soul and protect those who would be victims of some of these sinful actions.

    We have been sold a bill of goods that, if we pray enough, we will conquer all evil. It just doesn’t work that way. For some, they will struggle with their problems until they go home to be with Jesus. The church must stop being naive about this.

    Why do people believe that people can “get over” such sins when they look around the body and see people who have trouble controlling their own eating habits? We gloss over this and think of it as a “nice” sin. Instead, it should provide us with a clue that things like pedophilia, porn, abuse, are not easily conquered.

    I think some pastors must insist that women return to the abuser because, if they don’t, their own paradigm for the faith becomes threatened and they can’t go there because it is based on the OT and it is pretty hard to give it up.

  58. Lydia

    It was the Haggard comment by Driscoll that has us here at TWW referring to ourselves, tongue in cheek, as “glamorous” bloggers. I was outraged by his stupid, demeaning comment which, unfortunately, is more par for the course with this preacher, than not. You will love the video I have for next week. More “playing with the Word.”

  59. “You’ve also got to remember that in a ministry as big as his he doesn’t post his own videos most likely. A webmaster probably posted it for him…he got some negative comments about it and said “you know, I don’t even like how I came across in that video, please remove it”. It would be nice if he would respond to an inquiry about the video though.”

    Oh dear. Any idea how many times we used this excuse in the mega’s? In fact, being big always gave bad decisions an out because there are so many layers to blame. Piper makes a bad video full of untruths so blame the webmaster?

    My goodness how many times I saw such behavior!

    I was thinking about this the other day and came to the conclusion that if being big can be the excuse for such outcomes then big is not really good when it comes to the things of Christ. He wants pure and Holy, not big.

    But you are being naive about the video. These people are so isolated in their little bubbles and think they are so clever, they have no clue. Remember, Piper is loved by the True Womanhood people and in the Reformed movement.

    What will go over great in their arena because people there follow their leaders and think they are great….does not necessarily go over great in the bigger arena of Christendom like the web or with those who are not impressed with Christian celebrities. They were probably shocked at the response..

    Trust me when I tell you this video is Piper and he believes every word he said.

    They allow such embarassments to die naturally. They don’t respond. They just take it down and move on. Remember, they don’t have to answer to peons like us. They are right about this.]

    The Piper on this video is the same Piper that taught years back that women need to be careful when giving driving directions to men so they don’t come off as trying to ‘teach’ them. Oh, and that if a woman works and has a male as a direct report, she should never give him orders but only suggestions because it is not natural for a woman to tell a man what he should do.

    That is Piper. Read more of his stuff. I have for 12 years.

  60. Something I thought about on the way to work this morning….many are saying one of the problems is that pastor don’t believe women. I am sure that is the case some of the time. But how is this different? I clearly said I was in an abusive relationship, had threats on my life and spent time in a domestic violence shelter and Dee said she didn’t believe me? Why? Because I dared to disagree with her regarding John Piper? Does that make my claim to abuse any less valid? Is Dee behaving any differently than the pastors she accuses? Definitely something to think about.

    Dee–>Anonymous 9:19 PM

    I am most surprised by your comment. Your response does not reflect the typical perspective of an abused individual.

    If you think that most people on this blog and others are saying to leave a husband after an “unkind” word then I think you have not read carefully. One hit is one hit too many and it is a reason to leave the home. Once someone hits, the barrier is broken down and the second hit comes much more easily.

    Your comment show an incredible lack of empathy to people in pain despite your protestations to having experienced pain. Is it the church’s responsibility to fix dysfunctional people? Hmmmm-isn’t that why Jesus died for us? The church is for the let down and looking not for arrogant people who have it all down pat. In fact, it IS the responsibility of the church to protect a woman from her husband’s abuse if she comes to the church for help.

    Frankly, your response is schizophrenic and I don’t get it. Something does not fit here.

  61. You know something that people do not take into consideration is that mega church pastors and other Christian celebrity leaders are RARELY around worldly unbelievers. People do not realize this. Their ministries are mainly to believers and are big into culture stuff instead of the basic Gospel. I am talking about what they are doing daily as in who they are around and where they go.

    They are very insulated. Do, you think Piper would say half the stuff he did if he had to report to a Lesbian boss everyday and would lose his home if he did not take her orders?

    These guys have no clue how to live in the real world or deal with real world situations as a believer living a holy life. They are insulated and isolated. I say this knowing many of them and being in that world for years. It is one reason I lost so much respect for them as I was going back and forth between the real world and their world. I saw they had NO clue!

    I think Piper would focus on the absolute bottomline of salvation and eternal life if he were forced to make his way in the real world. We must become Holy while living and working amongst serious evil and total lostness every day.

  62. I think one of the things I am trying to say that so many of you want to lay it in the lap of pastors and the church to fix dysfunctional families. I don’t think that’s fair. I do totally agree that we don’t want pastors laying guilt trips on women to stay in an abusive relationship. In the end, it’s only the woman who knows how much she can take, how much more she’s willing to try and when she feels she needs to get out. John Piper is saying try it if you can, in the end you may save your marriage, but certainly get help if you need it. I am cynical….I think most men that mistreat their wives verbally and/or physically do NOT change.

  63. Anon, when you defend Piper’s words/actions and make excuses for him, we are concerned you are still a candidate for abuse. There is a direct correlation between this following of man and their teachings and such outcomes. Some of us have seen it over and over. People looking for godly authority in the Body. The problem is they are looking to human authority in the Body instead of to Christ as their authority in the Body.

    You might have fallen for the typical patriarchal excuse that it was simply your spouse who did the authority thing wrong.

    The true Christian response is for the pastor to go to the abuser and ask him to abuse him instead of his sister in Christ. He would beg to take the beatings for you.

    He would not tell her to take it for a season…whatever that means. Please, friend, do not follow these men.

  64. ” think one of the things I am trying to say that so many of you want to lay it in the lap of pastors and the church to fix dysfunctional families. I don’t think that’s fair.”

    Then they need to stop teaching it! They want to teach us about extra biblical gender roles, how to raising children, discipline children, happy marriages, etc.

    They are formula preachers who are also culture warriors. And this stuff sells because most people would rather have a formula or steps to live by (works) than abiding in Christ.

  65. Anon 9:19,

    Allow me to try and clarify Dee’s position. She is NOT expecting pastors to provide professional counseling for dysfunctional families in their church. Let’s take your situation, for example. If you had confided to your pastor that you were being abused by your husband, Dee would expect him and that particular body of believers to come to your aid and provide a wall of protection around you to stop the abuse. Then Christian counselors who are trained in domestic abuse would be sought out to try and bring about reconciliation between you and your husband. At least, that’s what I believe she is trying to explain.

    I have to admit that I find your defense of John Piper disturbing.

    Lydia,

    I have had the True Woman movement on the back burner and will be writing about it soon. I look forward to reporting on Nancy Leigh DeMoss and her True Woman Manifesto.

  66. Anon

    I am sorry that you found my confusion with your words upsetting. It is very difficult on a blog to understand those who write in. There are many people who misrepresent themselves in order to drive home a point, especially if it involves certain sacred cows such as rock star theologians who cannot do wrong. Sometimes we get it wrong and I am sorry that I did.

    You do represent what seems to be a minority opinion. I believe that Piper knew exactly what he was saying, planned it, and continues to believe it. I do believe that he thinks that abuse can be overlooked for a short time and that it is normal and doesn’t repeat itself. Tomorrow I will show another statement by him in regards to punishment that might help you understand why i believe this.

    I also believe that church must come behind a woman who is abused and that the men should go out of their way to protect her. Usually they protect the man who is often believed over the “hysterical” female. Also, many pastors believe the church is equipped to counsel the abuser and abusee and do so to the detriment of all involved.

    I believe that the church must help their people to get help. I used to belong to a church that refused to post domestic abuse hot line numbers and also believed that they were competent to counsel sexual abuse victims. They are naive and hurt people by their archaic point of view.

    I do not believe that the church should be bypassed in situations of abuse however. I think the church can provide support and protection along with guidance to excellent outside resources. It should not be an “either or” but a “both”. Unfortunately many churches have failed in this area.

    Piper has not retracted his statement in spite of calls for him to do so. Why not? If he would just say “I was wrong and I am sorry” it would go away. What is so hard about that? Maybe he isn’t so sorry.

    You are correct, most men who abuse their wives do not change-statistics prove it. Men like Piper, however, live in a dangerous la la land that do not buy such a statement. And that shows that even a good theologian can not fully understand what Scripture teaches us regarding the problem of sin which remains until we die.

  67. What is troubling to me is that sometimes churches that embrace complementarianism have a good ole boy network. Abusive husbands can be con artists who fool their pastors. I know of a situation where an extremely manipulative husband intentionally provoked his wife, knowing that she would express herself with a verbal outburst. Guess what… He secretly recorded it and went to his pastor buddies to tattle on his wife. Who did they believe? The husband! It was horrible…

  68. Lydia,

    I watched the John Piper clip. Who is his audience?

    You know, we live in a fallen world, and I get so frustrated with these “culture warriors”.

    Here’s my recommendation — just preach the Word!

  69. Here’s a website that has posted the transcript of the video:

    http://word4women.wordpress.com/2009/09/15/should-a-wife-submit-to-an-abusive-husband/

    The comment by the website owner afterwards is nausea-inducing.

    Also, Piper’s video is available on archive.org:

    http://www.archive.org/details/WhatShouldAWifesSubmissionToHerHusbandLookLikeIfHesAnAbuser

    To be blunt, given the pervasiveness of this type of attitude among certain people who call themselves “Christian” (and, in fact, think of themselves as the “elect”), I think it’s safer for women not to get involved.

  70. anon for this one

    Well, I thought I couldn’t be surprised. The author speaks of a tiny woman abusing her big lug of a husband. I believe the Christian world is getting goofier by the minute. I would be very cautious in approaching many pastors who are into this sort of male head, kinda like Jesus thing. I am not sure they are one the side of women and will believe a man first.

    I know of a church who believed a male pastoral candidate over the report of a teenaged boy who said this guy was abusing kids. Well, he couldn’t, after all he was going to be a Pastor (note that the article capitalizes Pastor just like it capitalizes Jesus). So they ignored the kid and the pedophile had another fun year horribly abusing boys in the church. The patriarchs show preference to men because, well, they are one of them and couldn’t be doing such a thing . Blech!

  71. Quote from comment section anon for this one linked: “Submission is a two way street. Husbands submit to God and Wives submit to a Godly Husband.”

    What?
    This doesn’t discribe two way street in least. This is very specifically a one way street. Totally one way submission. A two way street would be mutual submission.

    Then that person goes on to talk about how Jesus was gracious to the woman at the well and the woman caught in adultery and used that as an example of how abused women should address their husbands.

    Uhm, news flash. Jesus was in an elevated position in comparison to those two women. He could afford to be gracious. When dealing with those in authority who abused, He took a whip after them.

    Incredible what goes on in the minds of some. Logic and reason and basic Bible application are severely warped.

  72. Dee: “The patriarchs show preference to men because, well, they are one of them and couldn’t be doing such a thing . Blech!”

    Things like the Danvers that claim that women are more easily deceived and, because of the fall, women are always looking to usurp men, of course it’s the woman’s fault somehow.

    According to patriarchs:
    Rule #1 – It’s the woman’s fault.
    Rule # 2 – When it’s the man’s fault, refer to rule #1

    It was Eve’s fault from Genesis through Jezebel’s fault in Revelation and every other woman’s fault in between. This is what they are taught from cradle to grave. This is what they constantly encourage each other with. They know, by heart, all the of verses that speak of the sins of women sprinkled through out the entire Bible while glossing over the truck loads upon truck loads of verses that speak of the sins of men. They are zealous in straining out these verses and finding possible new one so they can put women down in order to feel better about themselves and hide from their own sins and the sins of their brothers-in-arms.

    This is why this teaching must be exposed for what it is. Man made religion. Emphasis on ‘man’.
    And this is why women need to stop letting these men be their spiritual authority. Their agenda is fleshly and not of the Spirit.

  73. “Things like the Danvers that claim that women are more easily deceived and, because of the fall, women are always looking to usurp men, of course it’s the woman’s fault somehow.”

    Mara, what is even more disturbing is what they are implying for women AFTER the Cross. That Jesus Christ is not enough for women to overcome the state of the deception they claim women have inherently. This means they do not believe in the power of the Cross for women.

  74. Mara said,

    “According to patriarchs:
    Rule #1 – It’s the woman’s fault.
    Rule # 2 – When it’s the man’s fault, refer to rule #1

    It was Eve’s fault from Genesis through Jezebel’s fault in Revelation and every other woman’s fault in between. This is what they are taught from cradle to grave.”

    Mara,

    As soon as I read your comment, I remembered something that happened to my younger daughter when she was a sophomore at the Christian school she attended. BTW, we have always LOVED the school! In fact, although my daughter has graduated we’re going back tonight to see their production of The Phantom of the Opera.

    Here’s how I described what happened in a previous post called “Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood – Sez Who?”

    http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/05/14/council-of-%e2%80%9cbiblical%e2%80%9d-manhood-and-womanhood-sez-who/

    “When I picked my younger daughter up from school on Friday, she came walking out with a single red rose! It had a note attached. I said, “Who gave you that beautiful flower?” She explained that earlier in the week her Bible teacher was covering the fall of mankind in the Garden of Eden. Suddenly, the guys in the class began berating the girls by saying that Adam fell into sin because of Eve! Yes, it was all her fault!!! By implication women alone are to blame for the depraved condition in which we find ourselves today. The seven guys banded together and ridiculed the eight girls in the class. The discussion got out of hand and turned ugly!

    I love my daughter’s Bible teacher! My older daughter had him for two years, and my younger daughter has now had him for two years. He is one of the most compassionate teachers at the school. He loves his students so much! At first I did not know why he allowed the discussion in his Bible class to escalate to a fevered pitch. In hindsight he was able to illicit unspoken thoughts from these high schoolers and in so doing an important lesson was learned by all.

    In the aftermath, a rose was given to each girl in the class with a note attached. The note stated the following:

    “Dear Ladies,

    The guys in the “man-cave” would like to give our sincerest apologies in concordance to the events which took place on the day before today. We hope you were not too hurt emotionally and we would like to inquire for unreserved clemency. On the contingency that we have impaired our companionships by any means, we ask that you provide the opportunity to mend that fractured relationship. Please accept this flower as a gesture of our sincerity. Your Friends, The Cave Men” “

  75. Too true, Lydia. Too true.

    And again, it is up to women to find out how powerful the work of the Cross is without the meddling of patriarchs.

    The Bible says that we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The patriarchs need to do two things.
    First, get out of the freaking way and let women obey the Bible and work out there own salvation.
    Second, patriarchs need to quit wringing their hands over women and start working out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

  76. Deb, we cross posted.

    Yes, I had seen that one already cause I looked up what you gals had to say about CBMW.

    Too cool.

  77. Well, even in the dog world, the female is responsible… Maybe she really is in this case – who knows… Enjoy this funny video.

    BTW, when my Maltese (named “Coconut”) gets groomed next week, she’ll look just like the white dog in the video. She’s so precious! And guess what…we’ve gone from having a “child-centered” home (now that our daughters are in college) to a “dog-centered” home! I’m surprised that Ezzo didn’t criticize giving dogs too much attention, too.

    http://www.maniacworld.com/which-is-the-guilty-dog.html

  78. Off topic, but interesting…

    “…the most widely publicized religious response to the nation’s worst disaster since the Second World War comes from within Japan itself—a series of comments made by 79-year-old Tokyo Governor, Shintaro Ishihara.

    Ishihara, a prize-winning novelist, stage and screen actor, and a populist hero of the Japanese right, has gained notoriety for his willingness to court controversy, but his take on the tragedy in northeastern Japan offended even his staunchest supporters. On March 14, just three days into the crisis, Ishihara told reporters that he saw the tsunami as “divine punishment,” or tenbatsu, a term usually employed in Japanese to describe a righteous and inevitable punishment of the wicked. For Ishihara, the tsunami produced by Japan’s largest-ever recorded earthquake was a means of washing away the “egoism” (gayoku in Japanese) afflicting the Japanese people.

    While the Tokyo Governor said that he felt sorry for the victims, he concluded that “We need a tsunami to wipe out egoism, which has rusted onto the mentality of Japanese over a long period of time.”

  79. Karlton,

    Thanks for sharing this. It sounds eerily similar to what some of our religious leaders have said when tragedy strikes.