Brought to you by the TWW Institute for Advanced Spiritual Abuse Studies
We are wrapping up our teaching on Spiritual Abuse and Recovery, and we hope you have been paying attention!
Earlier this week we received a call on TWW’s Hotline from a gentleman who just became aware of our website by searching the words “spiritual abuse”. Dee spoke with him at length and found out that he has been a committed member of his church for around 13 years and that the elders recently rewrote the Membership Covenant and expected everyone to sign it, regardless of how long they have been members of the church. After reviewing the covenant, he declined the opportunity to sign it and left the church. He wanted to know whether we saw any problems with this newly adopted Membership Covenant, so he e-mailed it to us. It is important to point out that we do not know this gentleman, that he lives far, far away from us in the USA, and that his phone call was unsolicited.
Based on our knowledge of hyper-authoritarian pastors and churches, we have spotted a number of RED FLAGS in this Membership Covenant. Are you ready to take our spiritual abuse exam? Just how well have you understood what we have been sharing on spiritual abuse within the church?
Below you will find the actual Membership Covenant word for word, except that the church’s name has been changed. We have substituted it with “SOS Church” and will reveal what the acronym stands for tomorrow. Have fun guessing until then…
Here’s your spiritual abuse exam question.
How many RED FLAGS can you spot in this Membership Covenant?
We believe there are at least five. Please list them and explain why they are “problematic” (one of Dee’s favorite words!)
If you are able to identify FIVE or more correctly, we will confer upon you an HONORARY DOCTORATE degree from the TWW Unaccredited Institute for Advanced Spiritual Abuse Studies, admitting you to all the rights and privileges which throughout the world pertain to this degree.
Tomorrow we will be posting the Red Flags we have discovered in the Membership Covenant, along with an explanation of why they are “problematic”. You will be grading your own exam, so no cheating! To determine your score, you will be utilizing the international standard rating system, as first introduced by the Cracker Barrel peg game. Here is the scale:
Find 5 or more – You’re a Genius!
Find 4 – You’re purty smart
Find 2 – 3 – You’re just plain dumb
Find 0 – 1 – You’re an ignoramus!
And if you discover Red Flags we haven’t identified, please let us know and you will be appointed “President” of the TWW Unaccredited Institute for Advanced Spiritual Abuse Studies.
All kidding aside, we are attempting to utilize humor in this exercise because otherwise what is happening across the country in so many hyper-authoritarian churches will make you want to cry.
Here is the SOS Church Membership Covenant. How many Red Flags can you identify? If you wish, click on the you tube video which will play 10 minutes of the Jeopardy theme to calm your frazzled nerves as you take the test!
Why Membership?
Membership is the difference between a couple living together and marrying – both experience the rewards, only one includes commitment. Membership asks the congregation to pledge themselves to mutual devotion rather than merely enjoying the benefits while remaining free to leave when one is no longer happy with the relationship. Membership is a call for Christians to live in a community of committed love and devotion.
In a day of radical individualism and consumerism, membership calls Christians to admit their dependence upon others and their responsibility to help others. It also discourages people from merely attending one church until another is found more appealing.
Finally, every Christian is expected to be under elder authority. By committing to membership, believers publicly declare their consent to the elders, and elders gain a firmer grasp on those for whom they are responsible.
Membership defined.
Put simply, a member is “an individual belonging to a specific group.” Therefore, a church member is a person who belongs to a specific church. The key term in this definition is “belongs to.” My wife belongs to me and I to her; we made commitments to one another on our wedding day. My children belong to me and my wife until they are of the appropriate legal age to belong to themselves.
Family members belong to each other, through struggles and triumphs, for the sake of each other. Church members belong to one another. They commit to one another to live according to the New Testament principles of togetherness—bearing burdens, weeping, rejoicing, edifying, encouraging, etc., together. They agree to love each other and be loved by each other. They submit themselves to their Christ-ordained “parental” authority—the elders—and bind themselves to their “brothers and sisters,” through struggles and triumphs, for the sake of each other.
Defined membership.
The Scripture calls for this kind of mutual commitment and there are many ways in which a defined membership helps us serve Christ faithfully.
1. Elders are going to give an account for their flock (Heb. 13:17) and, therefore, need to know for whom they are responsible. Membership helps determine who makes up their flock.
2. Christians are under elder authority. Membership helps clarify which Christians are under which elders.
3. Christians are commanded to love one another. Membership helps Christians to be devoted to one another in love (Rom. 12:10). By becoming members, congregants affirm to the world and each other that we are not merely living together, we are married.
4. The right to vote on major decisions for the entire congregation should only be granted to those willing to make a commitment to its people. Membership helps ensure voting rights are given only to those who pledge loyalty to the group.
5. We live in an age of radical individualism and consumerism, character deficiencies which have infiltrated Christianity. Membership helps Christians avoid the sinful temptation to love themselves more than they love their fellow Christians.
6. Christians need other Christians in order to persevere in faith. Membership helps ensure that we will surround ourselves with others who can encourage us toward love and good deeds (Heb. 10:23–25).
Member Expectations and Privileges. Those who commit to the SOS Church will enjoy the following benefits: regular shepherding care, protection, and discipline from SOS elders, mutual love and devotion from other church members, opportunities and encouragement to use teaching and leadership gifts, voting rights, and the joy of committing themselves to the edification of others.
The following will be expected of members:
- Regular worship service participation. (However, we will not take a weekly roll call.)
- Generous giving. (However, this will remain between you and the Lord.)
- Use of Spiritual gifts for the benefit of the SOS Church body.
- Small group participation. (Although exceptions will occur, our constant encouragement will befor all members to join small groups.)
- Submission to, and respect for, the elders of the SOS Church.
Requirements for Membership. Becoming a member requires the following:
- Belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
- Baptism as a believer.
- Affirmation of the SOS Church’s statement of faith, philosophy of ministry, and position papers. (Exceptions may be made by elder approval.)
- Completion of the SOS Church’s Foundations class.
- Recommendation by an elder and board reception into membership.
- Be at least 16 years old (see Youth Membership below).
Non-members.
For those who desire to participate at the SOS Church but who do not want to commit to us in formal membership, we desire to express a few things.
First, you are welcome and will not be treated as “second-class citizens.” However, we do want you to wrestle with why you are reluctant to commit. Also, you need to know that we will continue to encourage (but not hound) you toward membership.
Second, there are practical consequences to withholding your commitment. You will not be allowed to vote on SOS Church decisions (although you are welcome and encouraged to come to congregational meetings), nor will you be eligible for leadership positions (such as elder or deacon).
Third, we will not allow you to continue in known sin without corrective measures. Regular SOS Church attenders will be required to sign a document acknowledging their submission to elder authority and discipline.
Fourth, you will not be permitted to serve in teaching positions without first pledging to submit to the elders and agreeing to teach only that which agrees with SOS Church’s doctrinal, philosophical, and practical positions. You will be asked to sign a covenant affirming your willingness to do so.
Fifth, you will be allowed and encouraged to participate in small groups.
Sixth, the Lord does not want us to treat church like a spectator sport. He wants us to be involved in ministry and the lives of others. Therefore, we will regularly exhort you to participate in SOS Church services, give generously, and serve the body (with the noted exceptions).
Disenrollment & Leaving the SOS Church.
We ask that any member who desires to leave the SOS Church discuss the reasons thoroughly with his/her elder(s) before doing so. While there are legitimate grounds for leaving, some people abandon their church for selfish purposes and leave behind damaged, unreconciled relationships. The shepherds of the SOS Church care for the spiritual well-being of our flock. On the other hand, if the reason is legitimate we will send you off with our blessing and the assurance that we have worked to please Christ in the decision-making.
Youth Membership. As our younger generations progress toward adulthood, we desire to see them take ownership of their faith and live it out passionately. We urge them to partner with our church as individuals as well as with their families. To that end, we welcome and encourage the pursuit of membership by anyone 16 years and older. The SOS Church constitution restricts voting on legal issues to those 18 years old and above.
Dual Membership. In those rare but important situations where a person is a member of an out of town church and needs to maintain that membership for missionary support (or other similar circumstances), we will consider granting dual membership. In such cases, the individual or family will be regarded as a member of the church while being allowed to retain their names on the roll of another church.
Conclusion. We affirm that all who believe the gospel are members of the body of Christ, but also that defined membership is a helpful tool in our desire to be conformed to His image.
Don't forget to tune in tomorrow for further discussion.
Lydia's Corner: Numbers 26:52-28:15 Luke 3:1-22Psalm 61:1-8 Proverbs 11:16-17
Deb
Let me get this straight. Are these people reading the same Bible we are?
Can you say “Soviet-style dictatorship”?!
The concept of ownership as described in this document is very frightening.
So are phrases like “and elders gain a firmer grasp…”
This document is much worse than the so-called covenants I saw back in the 70s.
Numo
How many did you find in this Manifesto????
@ Dee: I didn’t count them (yet), but I’m sure there are more than 5!!!
OK well right off the bat…
Membership is the difference between a couple living together and marrying
Are they really trying to tell me that after becoming a member I won’t be able to have sex anymore?
rather than merely enjoying the benefits while remaining free to leave when one is no longer happy with the relationship.
So I can’t leave if I’m not happy?
admit their dependence upon others
Since when am I obligated to admit I’m dependent on others, if indeed it is not the case?
every Christian is expected to be under elder authority
Really..says who?
My wife belongs to me
and so close to Lincoln’s birthday too..how sad
Christ-ordained “parental” authority—the elders
Once again…says who?
Christians need other Christians in order to persevere in faith. Membership helps ensure that we will surround ourselves with others who can encourage us toward love and good deeds
More to the point it insulates the members and makes it less likely they will be exposed to contrary opinion., much like the controlling husband that won’t allow his wife a “day out” with the girls.
Those who commit to the SOS Church will enjoy the following benefits: regular shepherding care, protection, and discipline from SOS elders, mutual love and devotion from other church members
Oh Boy!! If I join I can have complete stranger discipline me … but I ONLY get love and devotion from members if I’m one too?
However, we will not take a weekly roll call.
But you will record who dropped checks into the offering plate…and that’s different how?
Submission to, and respect for, the elders of the SOS Church.
Big one here…respect is EARNED it is NOT an obligation of membership
Belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ
arguable point here,..but salvation requires belief in Jesus not necessarily in what someone wrote about Him, for instance if I come to believe that part of the Gospel of Mark is incorrect in it’s history, must I leave? Although I suppose as a condition of membership, they have the right.
and position papers. (Exceptions may be made by elder approval.)
Position papers..really? Of course the “exceptions” is interesting too, how else can you make room for politics (strange bedfellows remember…)
Be at least 16 years old (see Youth Membership below).
To be a member there’s an age requirement … next thing you know there will be a cover charge to get in!
we will continue to encourage (but not hound) you toward membership.
Wait, you mean we will continue to pressure you (but not pressure you), right?
nor will you be eligible for leadership positions (such as elder or deacon)
What happened to the “church” and the leadership of it, being not restricted by location…the “Church Triumphant” does not just refer to SOS congregation.
we will not allow you to continue in known sin without corrective measures.
Good luck with that one…nuff said.”
While there are legitimate grounds for leaving, some people abandon their church for selfish purposes
Which I might point out, is also a legitimate reason…in fact there are NO illegitimate reasons, it’s like in high school when the teacher asked you to give your opinion on what started the Vietnam war and then proceeds to give you an ‘F’ and tell you that you “opinion” was wrong..huh?
we will consider granting dual membership. In such cases
Wow, get over yourselves!
I have left many other items un-commented on…I didn’t want to steal the last cookie from the cookie jar. Maybe I should write up a membership document for being a humanist or atheist and we can see how they might compare.
Let me guess, SOS = Squash Our Sheep ?
and I lost count trying to decide whether some things were 2 separate things or different expressions of the same
Lynne
Did you get at least a 5? Your doctorate is riding on this.
Karl
You have earned a doctorate. However, I will have to consult with the Trustees to see if an atheist can be a President of an evangelical institute however unaccredited.
Numo
Good guess. By virtue of the authority entrusted in me, you now hold a doctorate.Congratulation-Dr. Numo.
@ Dee: I think it’s only fair to reveal the source of my internet alias… Somehow “Dr.” and “Numo” don’t quite go together. (The late Numo used to have a wonderful blog dedicated to him, but his mom has since taken it offline…)
Ack! I was not properly signed in above ^ ^ ^
Oh dear, the dear, departed Dr. Numo. Can we give him a doctorate posthumously? So many details in running an institution of little stature…
I think so… he competed in the Hedgehog Olympic! (Seriously, he did.)
Dr Numo
I have to ask…Hedgehog Olympics? Does this mean I have to get gold medals and ribbons? What were the events? I’m afraid of the answer. What size ribbons are appropriate? This is getting complicated. This is one of the funniest comments I think I have ever read. Hedgehog Olympics!!!!! Good night!
Hey Doc Numo
Did he get a Wheaties endorsement? Or do hedgehogs not eat Wheaties.
Lynne
You are so close it hurts.
You can check out the Hedgehog Olympic events here.
Two things:
1. Spectators were supposed to wave their hands in “applause,” because clapping scares hedgehogs.
2. The boys had to do all the events before the girls, because the boys would get too distracted otherwise. (not j/k!)
Blechhhh yuckkkkk other sounds…
submit / bind / parental / give their consent / firmer grasp on those / belong to / we are married / pledge loyalty to / required to sign a document……
these words are just too much.
One’s own family is family enough. Dysfunction enough. Who needs another one, brimming with built-in dysfunctions?
Being involved with like-minded people on a good and worthy cause is a great thing. But this…. it’s just too much. Ridiculously so.
The whole phrase of elders having a “firmer grasp” is creepy…..
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To join my church, I had to answer yes to the following questions:
1. Do you acknowledge yourselves to be sinners in the sight of God, justly deserving His displeasure, and without hope save in [i.e., except for] His sovereign mercy?
2. Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and Savior of sinners, and do you receive and rest upon Him alone for salvation as He is offered in the gospel?
3. Do you now resolve and promise, in humble reliance upon the grace of the Holy Spirit, that you will endeavor to live as becomes the followers of Christ?
4. Do you promise to support the Church in its worship and work to the best of your ability?
5. Do you submit yourselves to the government and discipline of the Church, and promise to study its purity and peace?
This covenant is trying to spell out 4 and 5 and in so doing binding Christian’s consciences where the Scripture does not.
I’m not sure where to count the five red flags, though. I guess I don’t get a doctorate :(.
I would run screaming. What kind of degree do I get with that? (I’m easily satisfied with a kindergarten diploma.)
Never, never sign anything like this at church. Scripture says, let your yes be yes and your no be no.
These are the words of man. It is no different that SBC missionaries refusing to sign the BFM 2000 but offereed to sign their bibles instead. They were told no.
All this nonsense is simply the church’s reaction to the mass exodus from religion. Every so many years, the church tries out a few new techniques to control and manipulate people, the things that work stick around and the others quickly fall by the wayside, with all the other pastors and churches trying to distance themselves by pointing and saying “ooh bad leadership or ooh cult”. The truth is, if these techniques had worked and met with little or no resistance, they would have been wholeheartedly adopted.
40 or 50 years ago people were raised to believe that all “good” people go to church on Sunday. It was so ingrained that the traditional churches never found it necessary to exert the level of control that we see nowadays as a reaction to the general sense that going to “church” does not make you good any more than not going makes you “bad”. The traditional denominations, Lutheran, Methodist, Episcopalian, etc. simply couldn’t adapt quickly enough and lost significant numbers while the “new” charismatic, evangelical churches got to start off “fresh” and have tried to exert more influence over the lives and decisions of its membership….members are the Church’s life blood, or more accurately their cash cows, they can’t afford to have them wandering into other fields.
Ah, the flashbacks are so painful.
I’m afraid the lack of real biblical scholarship of those drawing up such a document is all too apparent.
Run, my friends, from such legalism and straight into the unconditional love of Yeshua.
“4. Do you promise to support the Church in its worship and work to the best of your ability?
5. Do you submit yourselves to the government and discipline of the Church, and promise to study its purity and peace?”
Saddleback and most other seeker mega’s had something similar years ago. I have no idea if they are still using it or not. One trick they used was to have new excited folks sign the document which included that they would not critsize the leadership or the church. Then when there was a problem…even questioning was considered “criticism” and they are reminded they signed the covenant so they would could claim they were sinning by breaking the covenant.
Do NOT ever sign anything. Run as Dylan said.
“All this nonsense is simply the church’s reaction to the mass exodus from religion.”
Actually, from what I have read Mormonism and Islam is growing here in the US. However, I agree that folks should run from “religion” and into a relationship with Christ.
We are seeing a quiet exodus from the Institution but we also know that many committed believers are leaving the institutional church. In fact, most of the numbers you see are made up….many churches have names on the rolls that have not been there in years. The mega’s have no clue because many of their consistent “attenders” do not join! And many who “join” do not attend. It is a huge problem. The bottomline is to never believe the numbers.
I like the part about being recommended by an elder or board for membership. Kinda sounds like the Morman “Temple recommend” document they have to get from their bishop allowing them into the temple.
On another note… reading things like this document makes me glad that my background is Lutheran. (Baptized = member of church; confirmation is, in some ways, the icing on the cake – and there are NO requirements that are anything close to what I’ve seen in membership covenants/agreements in evangelical/charismatic churches.)
High-church denoms might, in some ways, be hugely liberal, but in others, they are more bedrock-basic: do you believe in what’s stated in the Apostles and Nicene Creeds? (Yes, there’s more to it, but it really is that basic…)
Hi Bill, the recommended part reminds me of joining an exclusive country club. (Not that I know what that is like. Dont want to be part of any club that would have me as a member. 😉 )
numo,
Should have added this to other post, but just noticed yours. I was also raised Lutheran (Mo. Synod), then later (early teens) moved to Church next door (better youth paster lol) which was LCA. Of course later on…moved to more evangelical charismatic type fellowships. I never could get those candles to light properly when I was an alter boy though!
Hey – I was raised LCA, and told to watch out for those MO Synod folks! (Not j/k; there used to be a great deal of prejudice against the MO Synod, and might be still…)
I went to an MO Synod church for a while and really liked the people there, though in the end, it was a bit too small for me – in that only a handful of folks liked to get together and it started to feel a bit constricted socially.
I kind of wish I’d stayed at that place, but I was getting a lot of pressure from friends to get into a “more biblical” church, and I ended up caving.
Ah well… it all happened a few decades ago; seems like another lifetime in many ways. I can tell you, though, that the MO Synod church I attended was remarkably open and nobody ever blinked an eye at my synod affiliation, among other things.
Doc Numo
More Biblical than the Missouri Synod? Good night!
I have been driving for the last 9 hours to see my daughter in college. I am still laughing about Numo. In fact, I will be posting in about 4 hours. See if you notice something-I hope it works.
Delurking to say that a few months ago I would have read that membership agreement and not seen any red flags. I might have thought the whole marriage analogy was a bit odd and that they seemed really intent on elders but otherwise nothing would have jumped out at me. Now on the other hand, wow, where to even begin?
I should pull out my church’s “leadership” membership agreement and take a look at it again. Joining the church was straight forward enough, a testimony of faith and baptism, a verbal agreement with the doctrinal (a typical conservative baptist) statement. After joining I was given a new member info packet, that’s when I learned that in order to actually do ANYTHING in the church, from choir, nursery, or clean-up, to teaching in any capacity you had to sign an additional agreement! And it was a lot more specific. I was really surprised, all the churches I’ve attended in the past let you serve in the church once a member, no additional anything. I held off signing it, because something seemed off and I was annoyed by what felt like a bait and switch, in hind sight I’m really glad. I should send it to you guys.
More Biblical than the Missouri Synod? Good night!
Well, more “evangelical/charismatic” and therefore, more Biblical. 😉
See if you notice something-I hope it works.
I’ll be on the lookout!
Karlton,
Your responses were spot on and the bright point of my day.
Thanks!
Indeed! 😀
“Membership is a call for Christians to live in a community of committed love and devotion”
Painful exit process that questions ones salvation. Sounds like someone has been reading a Josh Harris book.
“In a day of radical individualism and consumerism, membership calls Christians to admit their dependence upon others and their responsibility to help others.”
Man before God, authoritarianism. You are now a sheep.
“Finally, every Christian is expected to be under elder authority.”
Who let the Fab five back into the room?
“Christ-ordained “parental” authority—the elders—”
Who’s your Daddy??
“Elders are going to give an account for their flock (Heb. 13:17)”
This is supposed to be a warning to heavy handedness in leadership, not a justification for polity.
“Christians are under elder authority. Membership helps clarify which Christians are under which elders.”
Yes, accepting Jesus just qualifies you to join the church. Ridiculous!!!
“By becoming members, congregants affirm to the world and each other that we are not merely living together, we are married.”
So my wife is your wife too?
“Use of Spiritual gifts for the benefit of the SOS Church body.”
We reserve the right to use your professional contacts, position in the community, and talents to build our vision of the church at no cost to us.
I think the doctorate goes to the man who refused to join.
Kay
Send it. We’d love to take a look at it. We could even offer it as a makeup exam for those who flunked. We are into grace here.You get a doctorate for holding off.
Unassimilated
Henceforth, thou shalt be called Doctor Unassimilated with all the rights and responsibilities that go with such a high honor. This primarily means telling people to “get thee out of Dodge.”
Numo
I attended a Missouri Synod in college that was, of all things, charismatic! It was in upstate NY where the Catholic charismatic movement was happening. Must be the effects from the Hudson River. Which just goes to show that some congregations march to their own drummer.
Stunned
But they dress so cute at country clubs…..I often use that Woody Allen quote. Frankly, it is very true. can you imagine being in a club with me? I would be objecting to the food, the link rules, the dress code. I would start a blog. Upset the members. They would throw me out. I would start two blogs. Ah well…
Elastigirl
I love it-dysfunctional family. There is no question that, when I am present, it becomes down right nuts.The pastors used to look shell shocked when I would call and say I had a question or two. But, I do have a great sense of humor.
Dee 😀
Dee,
Guess what I bought you at Cracker Barrell…
A charismatic MO Synod Church?
Stranger things have happened, I guess. 😉
Deb
I should have told you, I looooove the pink gumballs they have there.
Numo,
I thought you might appreciate this…
http://mainereason.blogspot.com/2010/09/beautiful-poem-about-ugly-truth.html
Hi.
It would be a much shorter article to discuss what is OK with this “covenant.”
Where does one even begin? First of all, the whole tone is wrong. It is condemning in not necessarily subtle ways, with lots of loaded phrasing, like:
Membership asks the congregation to pledge themselves to mutual devotion rather than merely enjoying the benefits while remaining free to leave when one is no longer happy with the relationship.
It also discourages people from merely attending one church until another is found more appealing.
Membership helps Christians avoid the sinful temptation to love themselves more than they love their fellow Christians.
However, we do want you to wrestle with why you are reluctant to commit.
…the Lord does not want us to treat church like a spectator sport.
…some people abandon their church for selfish purposes and leave behind damaged, unreconciled relationships.
My sin is ever before me, even if it isn’t my sin! I am guilty until proven guilty!
Then there is the marriage analogy. This is completely inappropriate and I dare say, adulterous. As the Bride, we will be married to the Bridegroom, and while here on earth we may have a spouse to whom we are wed. We do NOT “marry” a church body.
To make it worse, we are apparently to “marry” our “parents”:
They submit themselves to their Christ-ordained “parental” authority—the elders—
Then we must talk about the analogy of elders to “parents.” What happened to “call no one Father?” This is Nicolaitan and violates the priesthood of all believers. Scripture tells us to submit to “one another.” Who do the elders submit to? To whom are they accountable?
There is quite a lot more but it has gotten late here. Final thoughts:
1) The whole thing is propagandistic, condemning, elitist, condescending, undermining (of confidence before God), and carries a general tone of abuse throughout.
2) The Bible tells us to let our yes be yes and our no be no. Anything else is from the devil. This whole covenant of commitment violates this. The whole thing is inherently, essentially unbiblical.
I am looking forward to what you will say on this.
JanH,
You saw some of the same Red Flags we did, especially Bride of Christ and married to parents. Today’s post is up. Please let us know what you think.
BTW, you have earned your doctorate from our unaccredited institute. Congratulations!
Dee,
I’ll remember to get you some pink gumballs on my next visit.
Hubby and daughter each solved the puzzle with only one peg left. Yes, they are geniuses. I, on the other hand, had three left. 🙁
And ignoramus is spelled “Eg-no-ra-moose” on the back of the puzzle.
@ Karlton: I appreciate your posting the link, and i think the poem is good… but I cannot look at the images. (Any more than I can handle actual photos/footage of Holocaust victims and lynchings…)
But I definitely do applaud all who speak out against such atrocities! And I have friends (Arab, mostly) who would likely tell you that the acts in question are terrible perversions of faith and belief. (In which I very much agree with them; there is no single face of any religions, and Islam is as diverse as Christianity – perhaps more so, in some respects, as far as I understand it, at least…)
But that’s a topic for another place/time, I think…
@ Karlton: thank you for posting the link – i really appreciate what the poet is doing, but I just can’t watch the actual video. (Any more than I can handle photos/footage of Holocaust or lynching victims.)
However, I think it’s vitally important that people speak out against such atrocities, and have a number of Arab Muslim friends who would tell you the same (most of them women, but not all).
Lydia… not sure I know how to reply, except to say what I have already said, which is that I am not referring to content, but to the way the content is expressed.
Also… I am not a member of an SBC church, and I never have been. It’s like another world to me – one where a language is spoken that I don’t understand.
I think many of us are expressing the same bedrock “A beliefs,” but … we don’t all word them in an identical way.
I hope that makes sense; I honestly don’t know how else to say that we share “A beliefs” but (likely not) many “B beliefs.” (To use Deb and Dee’s way of putting it.)
all the best,
me
Numo, did you put your last comment on the wrong thread?
In any event…we have the same problem in Washington…everyone is worried about how something is said instead of the content. It seems to work well avoiding the ability to get to the real issues. :o)
Hi Lydia,
yes, I got confused! (More confused than usual. ;))
The church that has inflicted its people with this policy knows little of the grace of God in sanctification, which points to the fact that it doesn’t really understand the implications of the grace of God in salvation, despite the fact that it is Calvinistic. The ‘peasants’ of this church need to grab their pitch forks and rush the castle, but they seem to be asleep. Whatever happened to Sola Scriptura? Whatever happened to the idea that we live under a new covenant, and that our marching orders flow only from the pens of the inspired NT writers?
Anonymous
I think people are being fed pablum in some of the churches. They are taught one side of the hyperauthoritarian debate, don’t look it up for themselves and then fear they are going against gone when they challenge a mere mortal who has the same propensity to sin as they do. Somehow, I think they think he is almost perfect and he keeps them thinking this way while pretending he is just a “good old boy.” This is a tactic that is causing much harm to many, many churches around the world.
The main ‘pastor’ who referred to himself in one sermon as the ‘first among equals’ (relative to the other elders), emphasized in one sermon that he had the moral authority to ‘shepherd’ others because of his success at home with his family. He often spoke of his family from the pulpit, elevating his status and qualifications to interact with the unwashed masses about their less than pristine family situations. All this from a man whose kids haven’t reached their teens.
” Whatever happened to Sola Scriptura? ”
SS is whatever the guy with the title says it is. It is HIS interpretation that must must be followed.
In regards to being in a “covenant” relationship with church. I have heard of this covenant relationship word tossed around so much I have a covenant relationship with God and with my wife but it ends there. I did not take marriage vows with a church, the relationship is not “till death do we part”, or “forsaking all others”, “for better or worse”, “in richer or poorer”, I believe I am at liberty to worship and serve God in the local church of my choice based upon what I believe from scripture, and also where God leads me by His Spirit, and not by a man-made church tradition called a “covenant” that I believe is not Biblical to New Testament believers to begin with, it’s not binding. Since it is not binding the church nor any person nor any leader does not possess the authority to determine what is right for another in regards to where someone should worship. The best a church can do is to remove a member but they cannot force by any means of persuasion to stay. Love binds, Christ binds, not agreements. The Spirit binds not signing articles of faith.
God and God alone binds a man’s conscience based on Biblical principles through His Spirit. And since the bible is not clear enough for me, liberty should be the rule. Oaths, so-called covenants, agreements, creeds, church confessions or church by-laws and the like may do us well in serving God, but they are not scripture and therefore not binding in matters of faith on this side of the cross. When has God appointed and instructed any mortal man to determine what other mortal men should believe, and in their efforts to do so, try to bind other men’s conscience especially upon departure of a local fellowship? Pastors know God has not bound any of us by these things!
The NT church didn’t sign articles of faith, they acted in faith. It’s a church where they did not say prayers, they prayed in the Holy Spirit. Being born again makes a person a member of the body of Christ. The NT gives plenty of criteria for how a Christian should behave responsibly within the local fellowship both doctrinally and morally, these requirements are “binding” upon everyone in the Body of Christ. How a person acts in the body of Christ is binding to God, not where a person serves and what a person signs. In the future I will be very cautious about signing church documents. I believe the practice misleads Christians and does more harm than good in the long run.
In defense of the church’s position however is that it is the churches decision to conduct itself the way it wants even if the Bible leaves the matter silent, churches can conduct matters as they see fit where scripture is either silent or unclear, and grace can do that, they are at liberty. No problem there, I don’t have to like the way things go, the church is at liberty, they have committed no sin it’s their decision. But also true is the reverse of that and that is it’s no sin or even wrong for people who attend and have signed a paper of membership in a local assembly to decide for themselves without leadership’s involvement, whether or not they want to stay or leave. Both the above are true in my view. And since both of the above are true in regards to the member, liberty to join or liberty to depart are a decision made by the member, not the church. The greatest extent the church has is a mutual decision to enroll a member but upon leaving it is the decision of the member alone. The church may not like it but that’s ok just like the member may not like the way the church handles things but that’s ok too. In addition, people should want to become a member not be manipulated into it or restrained out of it, by some ritual or rhetoric that simply does not bind a man’s conscience.
Eternity
Thank you for weighing in in such a thoughtful manner. It appears that you are not the sort of person who would easily be manipulated by some hyper-authoritarian pastor or church. Same goes for me. The Scripture often refer to sheep and children in regards to the people who follow Christ. Unfortunately, many have been taught that these words mean obedience to the leaders, looking at them as your parents, etc.
As many have testified on this site, everything goes fine until one of the sheep wakes up and realizes that they have been taught in a way that increasingly makes little sense. So, acting on the belief that they are a member of a family, they begin to question the leadership. In churches with such “covenants” one can be assured that one is dealing with controlling leaders.
So, they start to ask questions, they are told to shut up, and they are astonished. Then, the more questions they ask, the more hot water they are in until, at times (read today’s post which I will put up late in the day) they receive the right boot of fellowship.
For many that is like losing a family and they feel deceived and let down. Tremendous pain-depression and anger-ensue. What makes it even harder is the pastor of the old church calls the pastor of the potential new church and poisons the ability of the person to join a new church. This proves the controlling nature of the former church.
What needs to be done is to encourage everyone to read the Bible for themselves and not take anyone’s word for what it says. That is why we offer Bible verses on this site. We want people to read through the Bible in the next year or so.
I knew a man who had been raised in controlling and hyper fundamentalist churches. When confronted with the possibility that some of his assumptions were not in the Bible, he became agitated and unable to look at anything else besides what he had been taught.
The wonderful thing about the internet is that questioning and intelligent folks like yourself can help those who have suffered through terrible church environments to see the light of the grace of Jesus Christ. Also, your excellent discussion on covenants will likely be read by many. Perhaps you have helped one more person not to be taken in by man centered faith.
Blessings
Dee
Thank You. Christians need to stay awake because I believe many professing Christians are going to fall as we get closer to the end, whenever that. Matt 25 the virgins. Remember, they “All” slumbered and slept wise and foolish. The wise had enough oil in their lamps the foolish did not. The deception, I believe, will get so strong many who think they are saved and secure will fall because they were not true to begin with. Take heart Christian! Be ready be watching!
Eternity
I think many forget about the “falling away” warnings. Many would say that it couldn’t happen to me or it couldn’t happen to leaders like…fill in the blank. I think the Scripture is very clear that it will happen to true blue Christians.