“Let me make it clear that this is neither gossip nor slander.”
“I don’t want to unnecessarily hurt Steve.”
“Steve is not a victim. Steve’s not a victim. This did not have to be this way.”
(Gene Emerson 2001 KingsWay Family Meeting)
Sovereign Grace Ministries is a “family of churches” that up until 2002 was called PDI and before that “People of Destiny”. Why do they find it necessary to keep re-inventing themselves? Well, the debacle at KingsWay provides a glimpse into the systemic problems that permeate SGM.
Why should we be concerned about what’s going on in Sovereign Grace Ministries? It is mind boggling to us how C.J. Mahaney and his SGM colleagues have gained so much prominence in the Reformed crowd over the last decade. Just take a look at the list of SGM leaders who will be speaking at the 2011 Gospel Coalition Conference – C.J. and Carolyn Mahaney, Dave Harvey, and Joshua Harris – not to mention all the appearances they have made at other highly-promoted conferences. The hyper-authoritarianism that characterizes SGM is creeping through Christendom and bringing tremendous harm to the flock.
One of the flocks that has been negatively affected is SGM’s KingsWay congregation. Back during the “PDI” days, KingsWay planted a church in Roanoke. As Gene Emerson explained during the 2001 Family Meeting (which we have now heard), he and other SGM leaders sensed early on that God was making it clear that Steve W., a pastor at KingsWay, was to become the senior pastor of that newly formed church. For instance, Gene explained that at Celebration 2000, “Dave Harvey preached a message seemingly right to Steve.” How prophetic (or was it)? At the couples’ retreat held shortly thereafter, "it seemed that God was calling Steve to the pastorate at Roanoke", according to Gene. He then acknowledged, “Everybody around Steve believed without question that he was gifted and called to be the senior pastor. He believed that he was called to go but that question remained of gifting.”
Gene admitted during the 2001 Family Meeting that the morning following Dave Harvey’s sermon at Celebration 2000 Steve woke up in utter terror (we assume at the thought of becoming a senior pastor). Could this have been that still small voice instructing Steve NOT to go to Roanoke? Gene then stated: “Going to Roanoke meant he (Steve) would have to renounce fear and unbelief and embrace faith for that challenge.”
After Gene explained to the congregation how miserably Steve had failed in Roanoke, he informed them that “Steve is on a course where if he does not turn around he could have severe issues in his own life, and in fact to an extent that has already begun to happen.”
According to Gene, Steve confessed three particular areas of sin to the Roanoke congregation (which may have been suggested to him):
- Unbelief
- Selfishness
- Motivated and led by pride
As he named these areas of sin, Gene went into great detail about each one with regard to Steve and concluded this portion of his talk by stating: “Because of the combination of those three sins, Steve has gone down a very, very dark path…. I don’t necessarily want to put Steve in a negative light. I hope you know that. I hope you can believe that.”
After Gene divulged to KingsWay members what we consider to be way too many details regarding Steve’s physical and mental state, he emphatically said: “Now what’s so important and what I want to impress upon you tonight and this is the most important thing I’m going to say, Steve is not a victim. Steve’s not a victim. This did not have to be this way.”
Toward the end of his message, Gene warned the congregation that “When we sow sin, we reap death.” Is this the Gospel according to Sovereign Grace Ministries?
Gene explained that any of us could do what Steve did – have unbelief toward God and allow fear to rule in our hearts. “This is a profound warning to each of us,” he said. And here was Gene’s advice to the KingsWay congregation regarding their future interaction with Steve:
“When you see Steve, please pray for him and please communicate compassion to him. But if he is in a position, sometimes he is, when he would be feeling sorry for himself or because of his countenance you feel drawn to pity him, please do not do that. Please pray for him and encourage him.”
Toward the end of the Family Meeting Gene referenced Charles Spurgeon, whom he esteemed as one of the wisest men who has ever lived. I believe Gene embellished Spurgeon’s position on the sin of unbelief when he stated that unbelief is “the pinnacle of all sin. It is the quintessence of guilt. It’s more serious in some respects than adultery and theft and all the other sins, murder, because all of those sins say I’m just going my own way. Unbelief says God you’re not trustworthy.” So the sin of unbelief is the absolute worst sin? Remember doubting Thomas? How did Jesus Christ treat his unbelief?
I have listened to Gene's 2001 Family Meeting talk ad nauseum and each time felt as though I was being lulled into a hypnotic state by Gene’s monotone and repetitive language. How many times did he use the words fear and unbelief? Way too many for me! I guess if SGM pastors mimic their esteemed leader by repeating the same words and phrases OVER and OVER and OVER again, they become believable.
As I listened to Gene Emerson, I thanked Almighty God that I have never been associated with Sovereign Grace(less) Ministries. How these leaders have been accepted within mainstream Christianity is beyond me. SGM’s loaded language, sin sniffing, and guilt trips are a throwback to a harsh, vengeful God. Sorry, this does not reflect the God of the “gracefull” New Covenant.
Lydia's Corner: Exodus 21:22-23:13 Matthew 24:1-28 Psalm 29:1-11 Proverbs 7:6-23
Deb
As you know, I gasped so much while listening to this recording that I developed a severe case of the hiccups-true story. I have never in my life heard such an abusive rant against one person in a church in my life.NEVER! Did you say that this is a Christian organization???
How could the SBC and other reformed groups allow such an organization to be part of their entities? How could Peacemakers even be a part of this travesty?
If my hiccups stop, I plan a rant of rants on Thursday. I believe that, if Steve was so inclined, he would have had a clear cut lawsuit here and I will explain why on Thursday.
For our anonymous SGM apologists, tell your “leaders” that more is to come. Just think, you, too, can feel important and support a yahoo leadership team.
Any plans to transcribe or post an MP3 version?
It is common for leaders to employ a very toxic and abusive individual to do their dirty work. Such men are usually loose cannons and eventually overstep their bounds or pick on someone willing and capable of fighting back. At that point the leader gets rid of their junkyard dog and claims he never knew how the man behaved. This is, of course, total B.S.
I was treated in very similar fashion by a senior VP of a major Southern Baptist entity. He got tripped up and quietly disappeared. The leadership of the institution never took responsibility for having such a person on staff in the first place.
The question is, what did this Steve guy do to trigger this sort of treatment? You’d think.a person who “lacked faith” would be allowed to step down with dignity. Did Mr. Emerson feel threatened by him in someway? If so, why?
“When we sow sin, we reap death.”
In a community where covering is part of the program, and where Christ still hangs
on the Cross, how could this not be anything but the SGM gospel?
Was Steve reaping death?
Unassimilated,
Honestly, I don’t have the heart to transcribe Gene Emerson’s entire rant against Steve. It was very painful to listen to. I heard it over and over again and did my best to transcribe certain parts word for word, which have been included in this post.
Because I believe KingsWay’s senior pastor wrongly divulged sensitive information about Steve to the congregation, I don’t want to make the same mistake here by providing the audio, even though almost ten years have passed.
My heart goes out to Steve, his wife, and his daughters, and I am keeping them in my prayers. I believe Steve was coaxed into becoming senior pastor of the Roanoke church by SGM leadership (Dave Harvey seemingly spoke directly to Steve at Celebration 2000), even though Gene claims Steve felt the Holy Spirit leading him in that direction.
Dee will have a lot to say tomorrow, and I foresee more posts related to this talk. I have learned so much about SGM tactics from hearing Gene Emerson in action at this family meeting.
It is hard to discern what was going on with Gene. Steve was under a lot of pressure to take the Roanoke position. When it failed, Steve was not offered his old job back and a chance for restoration. I think it was said that there was no money to pay him which doesn’t make sense since he was just prior to that on the payroll. I think the answer is that Gene truly believed that Steve had committed a horrendous sin of unbelief and therefore was disqualified from being a pastor. In his mind there just was no place on the staff for him. The incredible thing is that Steve came back to KingsWay and got a secular job and submitted to leadership and eventually became the Sunday school administrator and later a small group leader and served admirably up to just a few weeks ago when he decided to step down from both positions.
Thank you for bringing the truth to light for so many who don’t understand why there has been such a big issue about this meeting and situation with SW.I believe there are those whose minds have been warped by SGM and just don’t see how awful and unjust this all really is. I hope those who continue to stay at KWCC will really hear and understand that the men there who have brought this out in the light and have confronted the leaders about such abuse are insightful,discerning ,godly men who could see past the smokescreen and lies. If you can’t see that then I think there may be something wrong with your thinking and belief system. The belief that your leaders are always right no matter what is a belief that just isn’t true. I know to most it’s so blatantly obvious this is horribily wrong,but not to people who have bought into the SGM way of thinking.
Unassimilated, KWCC, seeking truth
Deb and I are still recuperating from listening to Recording #1 (Does that mean there are more….)?
Thursday ad Friday, and perhaps next week, there will be rants and finger pointing in the right direction.
We are still struggling through putting the 2001 meeting transcript up for public consumption. We want the world to hear what happens when a yahoo abusive leadership hurts people. So, give us a little time to think and pray about this.
May God convict the hearts, if they haven’t been hardened, of these people who allowed this travesty to occur. Talk about “wicked” to quote Gene Emerson.
R
Steve lacked faith, alright, but not in God. His deep down hunch was correct. There were men who were trying to control him.His pain was caused by a leadership who actually think they know God’s will for everyone under their “care.” This is a “wicked” lie. These pastors are merely men who are subject to serious sin. God speaks to all. He doesn’t give secret revelations to a bunch of pompous, arrogant, men who pretend or are deluded into thinking that they have a special anointing.
This is why I think that they (SGM,CJ) are increasingly accepted by outside groups like pompous SBC and certain Reformed types. In the Garden of Eden, man sought to be like God. Replay. This supposed “gullible” (another SGM deception to keep the lips zipped of 50% of their population) woman thinks that this is in play here.
I highly recommend the book, Mere Churchianity by Michael Spencer along with the book, The Subtle poser of Spiritual Abuse.
Thanks for commenting.
May God give you the peace that passes all understanding. Welcome to the Fellowship of the Wounded. Many of us have been there and are devoted to shining the light so that our children and grandchildren will be forewarned.
Blechh.
Thanks to the anonymous person who sent the recording. You did the right thing.
You know, going back to the whole debate about if GE lied…..it sounds so far like he sincerely believed what he was saying. That is rather hideous, and his total lack of empathy is sociopathic. But I would think we can assume that he represented the entire top tier at SGM and they all would have agreed with him? Not liars, just deceived?
It gets creepier all the time.
Ladies,
You are truly amazing. Two other blogs discussed this issue at length and you at Wartburg end up with the tape. Congratulations!
You went to great length to tell us that this tape is legitimate. I seriously doubt that anyone is going to question the authenticity of this tape. It is ridiculous to think someone would imitate Gene’s voice and create this tape. Of course it is authentic.
What you did not address was the fact that this recording was made at a private, members-only meeting. And you chose to publish this world wide. How kind and thoughtful of you.
Oh sure, you have justified this in your minds. You think SGM is rotten to the core. Yet you have never been members, and you have never talked to Gene Emerson. You have not personally heard from all parties involved. You read anonymous post and tell the world what you think, right or wrong. Slander or not. After all this is a blog.
You spend all of your time pointing fingers at other Christians and condemning them with such rudeness, and disrespect.
You publically declared that Gene Emerson lied. You have offered no proof whatsoever that he lied when he got up to speak at that meeting. You did not say he mispoke. You said he lied. You have not proven he lied or covered up a lie.
You have slandered Peacemakers by saying they are somehow manipulated by SGM. You have given absolutely no proof of this.
Where is the integrity and honesty that you demand of others?
Each of us as Christians have the fruits of the Holy Spirit fully available to us, as well as the One who invented those fruits, to confront and resolve each and every conflict that you could name.
It is foolish to continue on with your attempt at resolving conflicts in the manner expressed on this blog.
Anonymous
You are an SGM supporter. Therefore, you believe that God is sovereign. Maybe He sovereignly allowed the release of the recording.
Do you know what slander is?
5Years
Are the pastors so stupid that they can be this deceived? Or do you think they could have been trying to place the blame away from themselves?
Don’t know but I do know that these guys are a bunch of yahoos.
“Steve lacked faith, alright, but not in God. His deep down hunch was correct. ”
I keep hearing the charge of “unbelief”. Unbelief in what? Was Gene saying this guy did not really believe in Jesus Christ as Messiah? Or was his unbelief in the institution? That is a pretty broad charge to throw around without being described in detail. It could easily be misunderstood by many.
“You have slandered Peacemakers by saying they are somehow manipulated by SGM”
I will slander them some more by saying they are more than willingly manipulated by quite a few “Christian” groups. I am quite familiar with one in particular from about 5 years ago. But then, I am also familiar with some other instances, too.
See, Peacemakers cannot make it without church/parachurch support. It would be organizational suicide not to support the group that brought them in. These ae the people who get them speaking gigs, sell their materials and make sure they are paid for mediation style services.
It is strange how few people really understand that by design Peacemakers cannot be objective. It defies logic.
Dee,
I am a Christian, therefore, I believe God is sovereign.
I am not an SGM supporter. I am a member. Huge difference.
Yes, I know what slander is.
“I am not an SGM supporter. I am a member. Huge difference.”
How so?
Hello, Lydia,
I support my local major league baseball team. But I will never completely understand or experience what it is like to be a member of a major league team, or any other, for that matter, because I have never played the game as a member of any team.
I am not merely a supporter or defender of SGM, I am a committed member. I live out my life as a Christian with other Christians at my SGM church. The experience gained on a daily basis as a member is a far cry from merely agreeing or disagreeing with what I read about SGM.
Anonymous
You must support it or you are a subversive. It must be nice to be part of the
“inner” crowd.
As for slander, why do you keep using it wrongly if you know what it is?
Secondly I am getting quite tired of you harping on the word “lie.” One of our atheist readers has said that we “lie” when we tell others about God. Do we? I am telling the truth as I know it. To him, it is a lie. He is not doubting that I believe it to be true but he says that it is not true and therefore a lie. How in the world do you know what the motivation is? Prophecy?
Anonymous said:
“You publically (publicly) declared that Gene Emerson lied. You have offered no proof whatsoever that he lied when he got up to speak at that meeting. You did not say he misspoke. You say he lied. You have not proven he lied or covered up a lie.”
How do you know which connotation I intended when I used the word “lie”? According to Thesaurus.com, there is a myriad of synonyms for the verb “lie”, which are interchangeable. Here is the entire list:
http://thesaurus.com/browse/lie
“BS, be untruthful, bear false witness, beguile, break promise, bull, con, concoct, deceive, delude, dissemble, dissimulate, distort, dupe, equivocate, exaggerate, fabricate, fake, falsify, fib, forswear, frame, fudge, go back on, invent, make believe, malign, misguide, misinform, misinstruct, mislead, misrepresent, misspeak, misstate, overdrawn, palter, perjure, pervert, phony, plant, prevaricate, promote, put on, put up a front, snow, soft-soap, string along, victimize”
Interestingly, only one antonym is listed here for the word “lie” and that is “be honest”. Is it your contention that Gene Emerson was completely honest in the 2001 Family Meeting at KingsWay?
Lydia,
Regarding your comments about Peacemakers:
They are first and foremost Christians, who, secondly, have chosen to work with other Christians to resolve conflict.
They are sinners saved by grace who focus their attention on all sides of the conflict. By the power of the Holy Spirit, and by His strength, wisdom, and much grace, they desire to restore unity in the body of Christ and resolve conflicts.
With this in mind, do you really think they are going to be influenced by the one who pays them? Do you have proof that they are influenced by those that pay them?
Peacemakers, while not perfect, are in the world, but not of the world.
Deb
So lie can also mean to misspeak. Sounds like that should answer Anonymous’ wearisome tirade on the word “lie.” Liked the list and added an addendum to the post in question with today’s date. Hope you agree.
Do you remember Peter Lumpkin? Doesn’t he sound an awful lot like him? However, Lumpkin would have a seizure if he knew I was comparing a Calvinista to him.
anonymous, permit me to interject: since they are sinners (saved by grace) of COURSE the men from “Peacemakers” can be influenced by those who pay them. Sinners are like that, don’tchya know.
Remnant
Yep-Peacemakers have “indwelling” sin too. Or are they part of the “anointed” SGM leader exemption?
“They are first and foremost Christians, who, secondly, have chosen to work with other Christians to resolve conflict.
They are sinners saved by grace who focus their attention on all sides of the conflict. By the power of the Holy Spirit, and by His strength, wisdom, and much grace, they desire to restore unity in the body of Christ and resolve conflicts.
With this in mind, do you really think they are going to be influenced by the one who pays them? Do you have proof that they are influenced by those that pay them?”
You really have drunk the kool aid. I can only go by my own experience in observing their “process” as we once hired them at one of the mega’s where I was working at the time. I would not trust them with my grandmother’s recipes in being objective. But they are good at what they “do”.
Anyone can call themselves a Christian. Some are deceived out of ignorance and some do it on purpose. Paul speaks to this in 1 Tim 1. And there IS a difference. But simply calling oneself a believer in this day and time of big business Christianity means we must all be Bereans.
Sinners saved by Grace do NOT stay in their sins willfully knowing the truth. See Hebrews 10:26-31 and all of 1 John. SGM seems to think little of grace and the power of the Holy Spirit indwelling in a believers life. It is quite sad. My prayer is that SGM folks will become free in Christ to STOP sinning so much. They can do this by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
And we do have quite a few out there making merchandise of the people in the pews.
Dee/Deb:
This is a public forum where not only is the communication written, but recorded and stored for future reference. Because we are Christians, this demands the highest standards of Biblical guidance regarding our speech.
You said Gene lied. This accusation stood alone without any further clarification. Anyone coming along and reading “Gene lied” is going to conclude that Gene stood up at the podium and made false statements about SW, knowing all along that the words he spoke are false.
Any reasonable person reading your words would easily conclude this. Even if this is not what you meant, it can so easily be interpretted as such. It is wrong to subject you, me, Gene, or anyone else to being called a liar in a public, written forum, or any other context.
“With this in mind, do you really think they are going to be influenced by the one who pays them? Do you have proof that they are influenced by those that pay them?””
BTW: The answer to both is yes. But not proof you would accept. But what I saw and heard with my eyes and ears in meetings. It was a set up.
“You said Gene lied. This accusation stood alone without any further clarification. Anyone coming along and reading “Gene lied” is going to conclude that Gene stood up at the podium and made false statements about SW, knowing all along that the words he spoke are false.”
Did you not read the definition of lying? Omission is also lying. Twisting is also lying.
“Any reasonable person reading your words would easily conclude this.”
Nice try. Only SGM is reasonable. You have the Christianese speak of SGM down pat. Cult tactics.
:Even if this is not what you meant, it can so easily be interpretted as such. It is wrong to subject you, me, Gene, or anyone else to being called a liar in a public, written forum, or any other context.”
Yet, it was OK what Gene said to people who did not have access to all the facts. Truth be told, I blame those people in the meeting for allowing it. This is the legacy of SGM’s focus on human authority over other adult believers in the body. Run away folks. It is a cult and uses cult tactics. Just as PDI did.
“I am not merely a supporter or defender of SGM, I am a committed member. I live out my life as a Christian with other Christians at my SGM church. The experience gained on a daily basis as a member is a far cry from merely agreeing or disagreeing with what I read about SGM.”
Because ignorance is bliss. You have been taught to not question your leaders. You have been taught it is gossip and divisive. You follow men. Not Christ. And for that I am very sad for you.
Anonymous
You really should get to know Peter Lumpkin. You and he are cut from the same cloth. Good night! Is this how they do it at SGM? Keep hounding the folks over and over until they can’t take it any more and then cave in.
As for your little lecture on language, Deb has degree in English from Duke so she has a bit of training in the use of language.
You are the one who is so concrete that you can’t see beyond your own navel(or is that naval)? That is why SGM works for people like you. They define the words, they define the application of words, they define how to interpret Scripture and you like having everything tied up in a neat little box.
You are helping our readers to see why there are a few “survivors”sites for those who are fleeing from SGM. The moon is pink? Yes, sir!
PS
I am starting to hiccup again.
Those guys have gotta be Sith Lords.
Muff
Yep, or the Borg….”You will be assimilated; resistance is futile.”
Anonymous–
So you are just fine with the way Gene has handled things at KingsWay especially regarding Steve? Do you think he handled it properly? Was Steve treated fairly? Have Gene’s other decisions been OK by you? What is your opinion of those that have left the church? How did you feel when you saw only around 350 folks at church on Sunday? Just curious.
To our readers;
There is now the correct way to Biblically interpret language-SGM style.
” Because we are Christians, this demands the highest standards of Biblical guidance regarding our speech.”
Of course this means the way those in SGM interpret it. Can you imagine what they can do with the Bible?
Does anybody know how to stop the hiccups??? Maybe I should stop gasping so much.
KWCC
Don’t you know that SGM will put a proper spin on it? These are the “remnant” the true people of God.The rest probably weren’t Christians to begin with. You know, I am getting so good at this, I could make bank writing responses for the SGM crowd.
I am really starting to get mad which should make for a doozy of a post tomorrow.
I know what slander is, it is everything that
came out if Gene’s mouth at the meeting.
If Gene was a reporter, political figure, or
other type of public figure, and ranted and
waxed the way he did at this meeting, there
would be swift, grave, and relentless pursuit
of reperatipns, and demands for public
apologies. His career would be over.
He is called to a higher authority
and standard.
Truth is truth, you get it wrong and there are
consequences. CJ likes to blabble that igorance
does not absolve us from consequence.
I don’t care if Gene thought the sky was green
with all his heart. He got on an SGM soapbox
and went on for way too long.
In regard to slandering peacemakers, three
words, conflict of interest.
If a judge was on the payroll an opponent
how fair do you think he would be towards
the other party?
In the world of Politics and Government, that
may also be refered to as corruption, or
corrupt bussiness practices.
How nice that the world outside of SGM
has a higher code of ethics and practices.
I can only imagine how you had to recover emotionally AND spiritually from listening to the recording of the meeting. I”m having to do some serious recovering just from reading all of this….and from visiting CLC in Gaithersburg to hear a non-SGM speaker recently. Brings back many painful memories. Feels like a bunch of monkeys hopped on my back.
Above you said, “Why should we be concerned about what’s going on in Sovereign Grace Ministries? It is mind boggling to us how C.J. Mahaney and his SGM colleagues have gained so much prominence in the Reformed crowd over the last decade. Just take a look at the list of SGM leaders who will be speaking at the 2011 Gospel Coalition Conference – C.J. and Carolyn Mahaney, Dave Harvey, and Joshua Harris.”
I believe if you look into it, there was a good chunk of change that both SGM and CJ Mahaney donated to some of the organizations that are led by some of the Christian bigwigs. I have not seen the numbers myself, but a copy of them so please don’t take this as “gospel” but please do look into it if you think it worth varifying.
I am not saying that there is necessarily a link to the money and the good will and attention that is coming their way, but again, I strongly believe it is worth looking into.
Stunned
It was my fellow blog investigative queen, Deb, who broke the story on CJ’s big time donations to Southern BAPTIST Seminary. Big time money. And, as my dear hubby is wont to say-money, sex and drugs-the big three that seem to be items that cause much, much compromise.
Stunned
Here is the link to Deb’s eyeopening post. We are talking “bank” to the tune of $100,000.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/02/15/what-the-sbc-and-sgm-aren’t-telling-their-members/
Leave it to me to tell you to go research the very thing you exposed. Thanks for all your hard work! It is so good for us all to have facts to make our decisions. (Much as it is easier to stick our fingers in our ears and sing “lalallalala” or simply ignore the pain of those who are suffering around us.)
Pampy
I have rarely been so shocked by a church’s actions in my life. Well, there was the pedophile thing… but, I digress. Both Deb and I felt dirty after listening to this recording over and over because we couldn’t believe what we were hearing. In fact, it was so bad, we can’t bring ourselves to listen to some other items that we now have in our possession. This is NOT the Christian faith that I have known for many years. It seems like a perversion.Poor Steve. May God give him peace.
Unassimilated
Thank you for your assessment. CJ does blather a lot when it suits him. By the by-where is that supposed manly man hanging out these days? Mark my words, there may be a new permutation of SGM brewing. Its like Amway-the name has to keep changing to protect the not so innocent
Stunned
Thankfully you are not one to stick your fingers in your ears. Keep seeking for the truth and may you find true grace outside of “sovereign grace.”
Pampy
But we WILL listen to the other stuff after we recuperate. And we will report on it as well.
Dee,
I recognize some of my fellow mates from the sgmsurvivors blog ! Hello to everyone. I had never heard of this blog until yesterday and am so glad you two are exposing the actions of abusive churches. I was in SGM when it was Gathering of Believers almost 30 years ago. The methodologies are still the same, but they have learned more tactics and techniques over the years and have gained more acceptance into mainstream Christianity which has just totally baffled me. ???? But, as I read a few comments up, maybe money talks, even in the “Christian” world, no? And the devil is a sneaky one.
I, too, feel dirty and almost oppressed when exposed to a regular diet of the SGM-type garbage. I really feel for Steve. That poor man—what an awful thing to be exposed to…it was almost criminal…so, so abusive. Thank God I left 3 decades ago and have truly tasted of REAL grace (and know the real Jesus)!! As I’ve been reconnecting with the sgmsurvivors blog and have been reading the posts on here, it seems so foreign to me since I’ve been away from it for so long, but those old wounds and memories are definitely surfacing. I have experienced such a wonderful relationship with the Lord and I am deeply grieved to see that so much twisted stuff is going on in the name of God and Christianity.
Dee…..strange that you use the word “recuperate”…that’s exactly what I’ve been doing after only being re-exposed to this stuff for a little over a week !!!!!
Looking forward to reading more from you and Deb.
Pampy,
Have you read our collection of posts about Sovereign Grace Ministries? You can easily access them in our Categories section.
Pampy,
I have been following SGM Survivors for over two years and enjoy reading your comments there. Kris featured one of our articles some time ago. She titled it “Show Me The Money”. Stunned asked about it earlier in the thread.
Here’s the link:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/02/05/the-mahaney-money-machine/
Pampy
How great that you showed up on our blog. About a month or so ago, a friendly atheist, who has a blog Maine Reason and is a member of the Maine Humanist Society, began posting on our blog and challenging, in a friendly, humorous way, our belief system. he has caused us all to think more deeply.
Well, his name is Karlton Kemerait (he is not anonymous) and used to be a member of the Gathering of the Believers until he was turned over to Satan-you know the deal. Well, he eventually became an atheist about 10 years later. He knew Larry Tomczak, CJ Mahaneu, with long blond hair and Che Ahn. Did you two know each other?
Karlton, are you reading this???
We would love to hear your story. Would you be interested in writing about your experience in the Gathering and why you left. Please contact us if you are interested by clicking on the contact info.
Glad you are here and very, very interested in your story.It could help those who are currently involved in SGM, have been abused by SGM, etc to understand why they are they way they are. History appears to be repeating itself and the world needs to know what happened before.
Pampy,
I just saw your comment over at SGM Survivors where you mentioned going to CLC to hear Tullian Tchividjian. Dee and I wrote a series some time ago about what happened at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, where Tullian pastors.
Here’s a follow-up article on Tullian Tchividjian that I wrote EXACTLY one year ago today…
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/12/08/it-aint-santa-whos-comin-to-town-2/
Although my conclusion may be far-fetched, you never know what the future holds.
Dee,
Glad you mentioned Karlton to Pampy. Wouldn’t it be a hoot if they knew each other at GOB.
Pampy,
Karlton mentioned in a previous comment that he used to do sign language for Larry Tomczak. Does that help in identifying him?
I substituted sometimes when … Kathy, I think was her name, was tired or just wanted to chuckle at my skills 🙂
GoB, when I was there was held in an auditorium…high school I think, but not certain it was a large packed (several hundred..maybe more) room. I don’t think, outside of leadership that I knew many people. I was attending Gallaudet at the time, so I knew most of the deaf and hard of hearing folks that attended.
Dee,
Thanks for the kind words. You called me wounded– in a sense I can’t deny that I am. But truly it was one of the best things that every happened to me. I was going through a hard time in life for other reasons, and wanted to believe the hype. It was no longer possible after seeing that sort of behavior. I suppose he mistook me for being younger than I am (most people do) and for being naive and a eunuch. Rather than intimidate or shame me, it had the opposite effect. Dad always taught me to punch a bully in the nose. I didn’t literally do that but I realized at that moment they had nothing to teach me about Christianity and that they were doing that not because I was in the wrong, but because I was stronger and better than I realized and they wanted to keep me fooled about myself.
So back to my question, why exactly where they scared of this Steve fellow?
Hello, D & D, and thanks. I’m sad to report that I attended that meeting in 2001, and from reading your quotes, am convinced that you have indeed listened to the actual tape. Most of us sat, in shock, as the meeting went on. If I remember correctly, Steve was NOT PRESENT at the meeting. (Someone else please correct me if I’m wrong.) Whether or not he was present, he had no opportunity to speak for himself.
For those of us personally involved, it was a nightmare. An absolute nightmare, and for some, it was the wakeup call that led to exits from Genesway. But for many, it was another incident in which we could “prove” our mature Christianity, our loyalty, our good soldierhood by not talking about it, by following and supporting our leadership with all the “good & humble sheep” behavior that is applauded within hyper-authoritarianism. And there were deeper issues as well — Steve mentioned in the recent meeting at KW, that he had, prior to this situation, been heavy-handed with people, as was encouraged by SGM culture. This may explain (not excuse) why people did not, at that moment, rush to his defense — especially those who may have been personally involved in such heavy-handedness. And, to be fair to those sitting there in shock, there was no opportunity to rush to his defense. Only one side of the story was presented.
If you have not already, you might try to listen to the recent follow-up meeting, in which the truth was told. I have not heard a recording, and have not seen a DVD, but am told that they do exist.
I listened to the sermon given by Peacemakers’ Paul Cornwall after he’d mediated among the 8 men involved in the KW situation. (Available on the kingsway.cc website.) It is a wonderful sermon, one that was personally helpful to me, particularly as he explained that our perception of a lack of godly sorrow keeps us from being able to trust someone who has hurt us, even if they have asked for forgiveness and we have extended it. That was exactly my position with my SGM exit — I forgave, but could no longer trust. I had expressed this in exactly those words, but had never heard anyone speak about that phenomenon. It was an “AHA — I’m NOT crazy” moment, similar to the one that came whem I first stumbled upon the stories relayed by TWW, SGMrefuge, and SGMsurvivors.
However, there seems to be a deep frustration among those in KW. Forgiveness in the situation is a GIVEN. Cornwall’s teaching on forgiveness is tremendously helpful in defining, establishing, and extending forgiveness. But nothing was mentioned about a solution for assuring that such a disaster cannot re-occur. Many believe that the pastor should step aside or be removed, or that a different governmental structure be put into place, but to my knowledge, Peacemakers did not address those issues. My take on that is that Peacemakers was engaged to do a specific thing — and the scope of the specified work may not have included anything other than mediating the relational issues among these men.
For many people I respect, the jury is still out. Others aren’t letting the screen door hit them in the rear as they run for the hills. I’m glad that God is the one to sort this out, not me, and I believe He is using your blog and the others to do so. He’s infinitely more patient — and He WILL HAVE HIS WAY, whether we see it as negative or positive, HE IS STILL GOOD!
You are correct. Steve was not at the meeting. Of particular note is the statement, perhaps even the promise, that Gene made regarding seeking to restore Steve. I remember thinking at the time that it would be wonderful to see Steve restored and back on staff as Pastor/Administrator/Worship Leader. It never happened.
Karl
I am curious.(Something my mother would say “killed the cat” trying to get me to shut up asking questions ad nauseum-still do, by the way)! Are you hearing impaired or were you training to work with those who are? Forgive me my lack of ignorance in knowing how to ask about hearing deficits. Gallaudet is a fantastic university with strong and respected academics.
R
Today I begin my analysis and have some opinions why they are scared of Steve.It will feature prominently in my analysis. Hint: it has to do with their own assessment of themselves as specially “anointed. The answer lies in the fact they are NOT.”I will expand today.
As for the wounded part-I, too, needed to see nonsense in play and have it directed at my friends and myself until I woke up. That wounding bore fruit and hence this blog. Let’s just say that God gave me an ability to smell bear scat from a fair distance away.
Outta there
Glad you are! Oh, we have the recordings of the followup and plan to listen to them in a few days after we get over the 2001 recording I don’t know if anyone understands, except those present, how incredibly awful that Emerson talk was. It was self serving and destructive to others. I plan to go after this big time and it will take two days.
Yesterday, some yahoo from SGM was trying SGM abusive tactics to try to shut us up. I don’t think he is used to people who could care less about his “precious” pastors. We are more concerned about those who jesus focused on-the lost, let down, and looking.
We are not two women they can shut up by some lecture on the place of women. We don’t buy their paradigm. And we have seen the destructive nature in the organization by the aftereffects of good and decent people.Far too many people in SGM have been duped into thinking that they are evil sinners who cannot do anything right. I think the leadership forgets about grace which is amusing since it is in the title of their latest permutation of the shepherding garbage out of the 1970s when CJ had long hair.
Peacemakers is impotent in this situation. WE did a few posts on them (click of Peacemakers category). One of their guys who was trying to get this blog to shut up kept harping on bringing peace. We, on the other hand, said it was a systemic problem in which a nice little talk about being sweet would not lead to lasting change. Its like an abusive husband who beats up his wife three times a week. Then, he says he is so sorry for Monday night and goes on beating on Thursday and Friday.
KWCC
I believe Gene had no intent to restore Steve. That was a snow job (see anonymous, a synonym). And today I intend to tell you why. My husband and i talked at length about this last night and he hit on a deeper reason that nails it. Stay tuned.
What you have, Dee, is the gift of discernment. This is a gift that not everyone has. Of course the fact that gifts are spread among the body shows the fallacy of the SGM leadership mentality. You see, Gene does not, IMHO, posses that gift. If he did, he would have questioned the CJ “therapeutic” teachings and the Brent D directives that created this whole mess. Instead God has provided that gift to regular church members such as Bob D who persisted for ten years to bring these errors to Gene’s attention. As anyone knows who has attempted to bring something to their attention, you get the feeling that they just don’t get it. Indeed they don’t. But that is OK if they have room in their thinking for a mere lowly member to hear more clearly from God on an issue than they. But that does not compute. The arrogant thinking is if they did not discern it, then it must not be from God therefore the other person must be speaking with sin in their heart of something else along those lines. That is why we feel so marginalized when we bring a concern to these pastors. Even when “humble” is the attitude de jour, those with the gift of discernment see through it down to the arrogance.
Free from KWCC said:
“Of particular note is the statement, perhaps even the promise, that Gene made regarding seeking to restore Steve. I remember thinking at the time that it would be wonderful to see Steve restored and back on staff as Pastor/Administrator/Worship Leader. It never happened.”
Yes, I got that impression from listening to Gene Emerson as well. Here’s what Gene said toward the end of his address at the 2001 Family Meeting:
“Steve has, as I said a few minutes ago, been disqualified from ministry but that doesn’t mean permanently disqualified. That simply means that he needs to repent of unbelief and have a track record of faith. But the gifts and the calling of God still reside there, and nothing would make us happier than to one day restore him to ministry. And so this is redemptive, this is with hope, and what we’re saying is the most important thing for Steve right now is not ministry. The most important thing for Steve is to encounter God so that he can walk a life of faith. So that’s our prayer. I want you to know that’s the prayer of the church in Roanoke, and if they can forgive and exercise faith toward Steve then we certainly can.”
As a side note, I believe it’s important to mention the size of the Roanoke congregation at the time Steve stepped down. Shortly after the above statement, Gene explains that there are about 35 adults meeting at the Roanoke church.
Please don’t be hard on Spurgeon! He was utterly taken out of context by Gene Emerson. From my reading of Spurgeon he was hard on unbelief because, though he was in many ways a man of great faith, it was this sin that he himself wrestled with the most. He wrote many books on faith and his ‘Morning and Evening ‘ is a must read for all Christians. Despite this he was himself prone to depression which made him, on the whole compassionate to those who were tried and tested and weak in faith. His words to Steve would have been words of comfort and encouragement along the lines ‘A bruised reed he will not break and burning flax he will not put out.’
I have never been involved with SGM but I am old enough to have experienced spiritual abuse, control and manipulation from a group that was based in Fort Lauderdale and headed by Derek Prince, Bob Mumford, Charles Simpson and Don Basham. Though there teaching on ‘discipleship’ they changed the meaning of it to mean ‘serve you shepherd with all your heart.’ and that your attitude to your, however unspiritual he was, shepherd was the same as to that of the Lord.
Thinking back to those days and what happened then in the 1970’s still causes me great grief and sadness. However it also has made me aware of new strains of legalism and manipulation that still is injected into the Church by Satan. Paul writes about similar abuse meted out the false apostles who came into the church:
19 You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! 20 In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. 21 To my shame I admit that we were too weak for that! (2 Cor 11)
And the Prophet Ezekiel (34)
“Woe to the shepherds of Israel who feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flocks? 3 You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool; you slaughter the fatlings, but you do not feed the flock. 4 The weak you have not strengthened, nor have you healed those who were sick, nor bound up the broken, nor brought back what was driven away, nor sought what was lost; but with force and cruelty you have ruled them. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd; and they became food for all the beasts of the field when they were scattered. 6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and on every high hill; yes, My flock was scattered over the whole face of the earth, and no one was seeking or searching for them.”
THere is hope for them all as the Lord says:
Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day.
Deb/Dee/Lydia:
Greetings
You are completely unaware of the conversations between Gene and SW prior to and following that family meeting. You have no idea what transpired between Gene and the other pastors prior to that meeting. You have never discussed this issue with anyone directly involved. You are not and have never been a member of KW church.
You, as Christians, are knowledgeable, intelligent, and have excellent writing skills.
And you called Gene a liar, publicly, and in writing. And you have yet to prove this.
You could have chosen other words and explained what you really meant, but you didn’t. You called him a liar.
You have tried to minimize this with words like hound, harp, and nitpick. You have reduced my comments to an english lesson. You have ignored direct questions regarding this issue.
I am not fooled. You called him a liar. If you can’t see how horrendous this is, then I am not the one who is blind.
You condemned an entire organization of Christians at Peacemakers, even calling into question their own relationship with Jesus, with your scathing remarks. You have accused the man who mediated at KW of accepting a bribe (pay) to pre-determine the outcome of his investigation. You accused the pastors of conspiring with this man to fix the mediation. All of this with no proof that he did. What a horrendous way to treat this brother in Christ.
You call people names.
You try to sweep me away with the usual generalizations: brainwashed, entrenched, blind, indoctrinated, etc., assuming and wrongly anticipating my thoughts and actions. And you have no idea who I am. I am an SGM member, therefore, I come with all of your pre-concieved erroneous notions and therefore must be automatically dismissed.
I will continue to pray for you, KW, SW, and GE.
Hello shepherding survivor,
I remember well those days. I had many friends dragged into exactly what you experienced. The origins of my faith – the early things the Lord taught me about learning to hear His voice and seeking His guidance directly – that the veil had been torn in two and we were now given direct access to the holy of holies, that we no longer needed a human priest as an intermediary, that we are a priesthood of believers, not a people necessarily subject to a priestly hierarchy through which salvation comes, all that made a red flag pop up and bells ring any time I heard anyone claim I needed to be ‘under a shepherd’. Not that I don’t respect God given earthly authority in the church, but that we should not shirk our responsibility to follow God ourselves, to seek Him directly – it is a great privilege given us in the New Covenant.
Isn’t it interesting though how the history of the church in general is filled either with groups that shun existing authority due to oppression (and the corresponding ‘folks in authority’ who are the oppressors), or folks that flock after authority wishing for someone they can touch and feel to tell them what to do, rather than seeking God directly?
I suppose there are risks on all sides, but one key piece that Christ brings is the ability to know God directly. To have a real relationship with God, not just following a bunch of rules Joe Leader sets in place. Why is it so many times we don’t avail ourselves of this great gift which we have been given?
Zeta
“Greetings
You are completely unaware of the conversations between Gene and SW prior to and following that family meeting. You have no idea what transpired between Gene and the other pastors prior to that meeting. You have never discussed this issue with anyone directly involved. You are not and have never been a member of KW church.
You, as Christians, are knowledgeable, intelligent, and have excellent writing skills.
And you called Gene a liar, publicly, and in writing. And you have yet to prove this.
You could have chosen other words and explained what you really meant, but you didn’t. You called him a liar.
You have tried to minimize this with words like hound, harp, and nitpick. You have reduced my comments to an english lesson. You have ignored direct questions regarding this issue.
I am not fooled. You called him a liar. If you can’t see how horrendous this is, then I am not the one who is blind.
You condemned an entire organization of Christians at Peacemakers, even calling into question their own relationship with Jesus, with your scathing remarks. You have accused the man who mediated at KW of accepting a bribe (pay) to pre-determine the outcome of his investigation. You accused the pastors of conspiring with this man to fix the mediation. All of this with no proof that he did. What a horrendous way to treat this brother in Christ.
You call people names.
You try to sweep me away with the usual generalizations: brainwashed, entrenched, blind, indoctrinated, etc., assuming and wrongly anticipating my thoughts and actions. And you have no idea who I am. I am an SGM member, therefore, I come with all of your pre-concieved erroneous notions and therefore must be automatically dismissed.
I will continue to pray for you, KW, SW, and GE.”
This is your take on the situation. I do not believe you have the capacity to understand the situation because you have been brainwashed in a cultish movement. That is not an insult. It is a huge concern.
We have tried to interact with you but your definitions and accusations of “lying” does not match ours or the one in the dictionary. You probably have been taught something different about such things at SGM so are unable to see. I understand that.
I pray that you will find freedom in Christ and understand we do not follow men but Christ. When and IF we become mature believers we cannot stay long in a shepherding type cult. I do not think you are there yet and your blindness here only makes me weep that it might take a long time for you to wake up and move on to Grace that allows us to live in freedom from the legalistic authoritarians who make merchandise of people with their “career choice”.
Question:
On the tape does Gene give examples of Steve’s “unbelief” or not living out his faith? How does he define these two things…or does he even attempt to define them?
I find it telling he felt comfortable to say what he did without Steve being there. Classic spiritual abuse tactic. I hope more will read the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse and come out of these cultic movements.
A few threads ago, cognitive rogue gave an excellent analysis of SGM-think. Here Kris, over at SGM survivors, gives another analysis that is dead on, too:
One thing I’ve noticed, after doing this site for 3 years, is that immersing oneself in the SGM system – to the point where one totally buys into SGM’s definitions of “slander” and “gossip” and has internalized all the commands to obey and submit to one’s leaders – is that one’s critical thinking skills get dull. The diehard SGMer would appear to have lost his ability to reason, to think analytically.
I mean, I would challenge anyone still in the SGM world to explain to me how it is that the self-proclaimed “worst sinners they know™” are then OK with no formal accountability for themselves. How is this not a problem for you? If you really think your leaders are THAT trustworthy, then what is going on with all their chatter about their own sinfulness? Do you believe them when they say they are the “worst sinners they know™”?
How can those two contradictory truths – their self-proclaimed “worst sinner” status, and then their self-perpetuated lack of formal accountability – be OK with you? Why do you continue to invest your trust in men who stand before you and say things they obviously must not believe?
I don’t think the really immersed diehard SGMer even thinks like this, to the point where he would be able to answer these questions. I think his reasoning skills have to be shut down…or the many inconsistencies within SGM life (and I am only picking on one, the “worst sinner™” thing) would drive members to distraction.
Actually, I think this cognitive dissonance (where what is proclaimed and where what one is expected to believe contradict what one actually SEES and KNOWS to be true) is the source of a lot of stress and internal conflict for SGMers. They live with a low-grade nagging sense that something’s not right.
But their ability to articulate what, precisely, that is has been taken away from them by a system that requires them to deny what their own eyes and ears are telling them.
(What Kris left out is that this is exactly what cults do and eventually the “eyes and ears” no longer are able to see any differently or even objectively. You are part of a “group” and in that group comes “group think” and “group truth” according to the leader.
Anonymous
Substitute your name for ours.
You use typical tactics of abusive groups,trying to back people into a corner to fit your narrow view of life. It is hard for those trapped in such a setting, such as yourself, to see the limited perspective of life under which you are functioning.
You have one thought, one definition and no nuanced point of view. I actually feel sorry for you and I can see why SGM works for you. I suppose that is OK. Some people need more structure and rules than others. And that is why further discussion with you on this matter is irrelevant. Your paradigm is necessary for your worldview and I can’t crack your nut.
I am sorry that you think we are reducing this argument to an English lesson. Both of us enjoy language and do believe in the nuances and and the subsequent interpretation of what is being said. Howard Hendricks, the great Bible study professor, has a saying. How does one interpret the Bible? 3 ways-context, context and context.
Continue to read and report. Perhaps the context of today and tomorrow will help you to understand the context. But, then again, it might not because you have been taught there is only one way to interpret things and that is the SGM way.
BTW, this is a Christian blog and so I am a little reticent to say this but I believe the first word in the Thesaurus.com list of synonyms most closely sums up my opinion of this horrendous snow job of a speech-whoops that’s two synonyms.
Today, to help you out, I will list some other synonyms so you can nuance your interpretation of our discussion.
OB
Amen.
Lydia
I think you will find some interesting things in what I have to say today. Darth Vader and the Three Stooges will make cameo appearances.
Orionsbelt,
I was only 15 when I joined what was a wonderful fellowship of teenagers between the ages of 15 and 19. The leader was a gifted and dedicated Christian of 26 year old. We prayed for one another, we shared one another’s burdens and would like to think we would have died for one another and the Lord.
Then came the Galatian spirit of legalism and control. We HAD to have a shepherd who would use his dirty hands to manipulate and twist what had been a beautiful relationship between the disciple and his Lord.
What started in the Spirit but through Satan’s temptation ended up in the flesh. Even ‘the great’ can get too big for their boots.
Thank God I was not old enough to become a shepherd as such,that for me would have been a double hurt to look back upon.
For SGM members I offer you some advice: read the experiences of past members and ask yourself ‘is this not also my experience’. If it is also true for you I encourage you to get out. Very often it will be pride that will make you want to stay-because you will have to admit you got it wrong.But be brave, the Lord will give you strength and will bring you some healing in due course.But if you stay when you hear the Master telling you to go it will be harder for you to get out. If you do decide to stay at least challenge the leadership and if they are truly godly they will listen to you, but if they are not they will despise you for confronting them.Then you should have a good idea what they are really like,
Questions to think about-Are they gentle and lowly of heart or do they put heavy yokes on the people that they are not prepared to lift themselves?
No time to find better links now, but I posted this for anon. In fairness, we tend to use the word “lie” as Christians to mean the persons knows exactly what they are doing.
There are people in churches- and I have dealt with more than one- who in an effort to protect themselves from great shame or loss, or unwillingness to admit sin-will say false things that they have come to truly believe at the entire conscious level. If you show them the email they wrote or tell them exactly what they said, they are shocked ( and deny it if possible). They have no memory of it, truly. They are not lying, they are confabulating.
I don’t want to get all psychobabble here, as false is false, untrue is untrue, a lie is a lie. But for anons sake, he may be onto something here. Some folks can tell a liar a mile away, and it is entirely possible that 10 years ago GE and the A team gave no evidence at all of lying, because they really believed what they were saying.
Now honestly I think people with a confabulation problem ( and like I said I know some) have problems at such a deep level that it takes either a catastropic event to get them into counseling, or a mighty move of God that transcends typical sanctification, to open their eyes. But they are not liars as we think of liars. They believe every word they say, even if it is false. They should not be leaders, but neither are they liars in the classic sense. They are self deceived.
This situation was probably a mix. I don’t know. But if anon was there and is there and swears the people were truthful, he may be right. Perhaps they were being truthful in their own eyes, even if in deep denial.
Once more is posted it all may become more clear. But I agree that throwing the word ” lie” around might not be entirely accurate.
***********************
a few selections:
wiki-
In psychology, confabulation is the spontaneous narrative report of events that never happened. It consists of the creation of false memories, perceptions, or beliefs about the self or the environment – usually as a result of neurological or psychological dysfunction.[1] When it is a matter of memory, confabulation is the confusion of imagination with memory, or the confused application of true memories.[2] Confabulations are difficult to differentiate from delusions and from lying
Within personal relationships, confabulation may be difficult to detect. Regardless of its biological or psychological etiology, simple lies and purposeful deception are included in the confabulation differential, as well as deep rooted psychopathological disturbance and early-stage dementia. The historical background of the confabulating individual rarely provides supporting evidence for their “fables”, however tangentially related. Fables may be embellished beyond any possible evidentiary support and will usually ultimately reveal the disorder if appropriate investigations are applied. Those with long term relationships are most likely to recognize the disorder most quickly. Confabulations usually involve harmless matters, unlike the paranoid and psychotic delusions expressed in defense of abnormal actions of serious criminal actions.
sceptics dictionary:
confabulation
A confabulation is a fantasy that has unconsciously emerged as a factual account in memory. A confabulation may be based partly on fact or be a complete construction of the imagination.
The term is often used to describe the “memories” of people claiming to have been abducted by aliens, as well as “false memories” induced by therapists or interviewers, memories that often involve bizarre notions of satanic ritualistic sexual abuse of children. However, it seems that all of us confabulate at times. Not only do people with brain injuries that leave them paralyzed or blind, invent stories that explain why they can’t move a limb or see without admitting to their disability, but perfectly healthy individuals make up stories at the slightest suggestion that they do so. An experiment at Lund University exemplifies this point:
People were shown pairs of cards with pictures of faces on them and asked to choose the most attractive. Unbeknown to the subject, the person showing the cards was a magician and routinely swapped the chosen card for the rejected one. The subject was then asked why they picked this face. Often the swap went completely unnoticed, and the subjects came up with elaborate explanations about hair colour, the look of the eyes or the assumed personality of the substituted face. Clearly people routinely confabulate under conditions where they cannot know why they made a particular choice. (Phillips 2006)
In other words, as William Hirstein says, confabulation is not just a deficit of memory. It is something anybody might do, even people with perfectly fine memories and healthy brains. We know that children and many adults confabulate when encouraged to talk about things of which they have no knowledge. We know that eyewitnesses can be influenced by suggestive inquiries to confabulate. According to Helen Phillips, “some experts argue that we can never be sure about what is actually real and so must confabulate all the time to try to make sense of the world around us.”
Dee,
I am narrow? What about all of the pre-conceived notions you have of the 7000 members of SGM. We are all mindless robots following the command of our fearless and perfect leaders whom we bow down and worship. And on and on and on.
I am narrow, actually. I walk a straight and narrow path, totally dependant on God and His grace.
I am narrow. If you intentionally fudge the truth, you lied. If you purposely leave out important facts of a testimony, you lied. If you carefully choose your words to make your testimony apprear truthful when it is not, you lied. And so on.
You are narrow. You think all SGM pastors are abusive, conniving, control freaks who have purposely created and sustain a huge divide between leadership and laity. And so on.
With all of this in mind, you are going to objectively evaluate Gene’s speech at that family meeting?
Gene Emerson is a brother in Christ, first and foremost. He wrote that speech based on his conversations with SW and other pastors. He acted upon his own convictions and presented what he believed to be the truth regarding SW. He told the truth as he believed it.
I may be narrow, but I can see clearly that the content of that tape does not prove he lied in any way, shape, or form.
I may be narrow, but my eyes are able to recognize slander when I see it. You slandered the man from Peacemakers. You narrowly accept that he was corrupt right at the start of this mediation without any proof whatsoever. I don’t have to accept your definition of slander or anyone else’s. I can think for myself. And I say you slandered Gene and Paul with completely unproven charges.
You may not agree with what they said, but you have no proof that they bore a false testimony or fixed the outcome of that investigation.
I have read every word you have regarding this issue. Who is narrow? Who is blind?
Dee,
Suppose in a court of law, where the standards are much lower than the Holy Word of God, suppose that the judge asks you if you ever decared publicly, in written form, that Gene Emerson lied at a family meeting ten years ago.
What would be your response?
I have appreciated everyone’s input in this discussion, and I believe this is a very healthy interaction among God’s people. It’s too bad that the members of KingsWay are not allowed to dialogue in this manner. Instead, the discussions are between eight men who have been sworn to secrecy by Peacemakers. What is wrong with this picture?
Anonymous,
Your sin sniffing skills are impeccable! Bravo. Thanks for demonstrating for everyone here how this well worn SGM tactic works.
Dee and I have learned from prior experiences that we are more tenacious that most, even though we are just women.
“Gene Emerson is a brother in Christ, first and foremost. He wrote that speech based on his conversations with SW and other pastors. He acted upon his own convictions and presented what he believed to be the truth regarding SW. He told the truth as he believed it. ”
Steve is also a brother in Christ and was maligned to a group of people without being there to affirm what Gene said. Why was that not considered gossip? the folks sitting there bother me more than Gene. I expect this sort of things from the leaders who make their living off this.
I hate to ask this, but could you guys boil down what happened here?
SGM starts a church in Roanoke, VA. “Steve” is the pastor. Then Gene has a “family meeting” (which has the name of a meeting that Manson used to have with his “family”). Gene is not kind toward Steve at the meeting, but kind of acts like he likes Steve.
That’s all I can gather from this post, except that it is pretty nifty thta you got a tape of a guy who sounds like Jim Jones, apparently.
Can you give me a short (3 to 4 sentence narrative) of what this is supposed to be and what it’s about? Am I just not reading the post correctly, or does one have to be initiated to follow all this.
Thanks.
“It’s too bad that the members of KingsWay are not allowed to dialogue in this manner. Instead, the discussions are between eight men who have been sworn to secrecy by Peacemakers. What is wrong with this picture?”
Christians are about transparency. Not about hiding negative truths. Why would peacemakers need to swear them to secrecy and why would they go along?
(This is a repost of an earlier post ignored by Anonymous.)
Anonymous–
So you are just fine with the way Gene has handled things at KingsWay especially regarding Steve? Do you think he handled it properly? Was Steve treated fairly? Have Gene’s other decisions been OK by you? What is your opinion of those that have left the church? How did you feel when you saw only around 350 folks at church on Sunday? Just curious.
I have one other question. Were you there in 2001? I was.
5years,
In a former thread, cognitive rogue wrote the following analysis which I think is right on. It is more about deception than an outright provable lie.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/11/30/peacemaker-and-sovereign-grace-ministries-%e2%80%93-can-there-be-peace-without-repentance/
“I posted that list as a bit of satire, but sadly those things exist in the culture at CLC, and often in the mindset of the SGM pastor. I wouldn’t go so far as to call it a “playbook” though. They do try ever so hard to nuance these things.
Given the back and forth here about lies vs truth. You may be interested in a comment I left on SGMSurvivors about Bob K. and Jeff P’s opinion of my salvation and then my comment about the emails I received from Bob K. and Jeff P. concerning that original comment.
Anyway, I think the issue here (very much like what I’m dealing with in those comments above) is more an issue of deception than lie vs truth. If the mindset (psychosis) is the same for Gene as it is with Bob and Jeff then what they say they actually believe to be true and it is communicated in an attempt to deceive the listener for the purpose of appearing trustworthy. This is not out right lying. This is a serious psychosis that is often referred to as pathological. They do actually believe they are communicating the truth, but the purpose is not for truth-telling. The purpose of the SGM pastor is appearing trustworthy, so whatever is said in support of that is the truth to them. The truth within this mindset is, “I am trustworthy” and anything can, and will, be said to support that belief.
Anyway, that’s my 2 cents worth after much study, analysis, and 20 years at CLC. Am I credible because I posted on a blog? No. Do I expect everyone to accept what I say? No. However, I do offer my individual opinion and perspective as an intelligent “insider,” judge for yourself if I am accurate or not.
An individual’s perspective (new information) that would otherwise not be heard can now be heard: thanks to the domoctrizitzation of information (blogs and the like). Will Anonymous 1 & 2 like to destroy democratization? I don’t know, but there does seem to be negative bent and denigration of democratization in their comments. Still, they enjoy the very freedoms that democratization brings.”
Anonymous puts Bill Clinton and his parsing to shame!
“Can you give me a short (3 to 4 sentence narrative) of what this is supposed to be and what it’s about? Am I just not reading the post correctly, or does one have to be initiated to follow all this.”
Those still brainwashed in the cult won’t get it.
“Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.” George Washington
The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. – James Madison
“I’m not upset that you lied to me, I’m upset that from now on I can’t believe you”
-Friedrich Nietzsche
Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder. -George Washington
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. – Benjamin Franklin
When once a republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil. – Thomas Jefferson
VS…..
“There are areas in which we differ from many Reformed traditions, such as infant baptism, cessationism (the belief that some miraculous spiritual gifts have ceased), and some TRADITIONALLY REFORMED TYPES OF CHURCH GOVERNMENT. – SGM from their about us.
(all caps mine)
“This Corporation(SGM)shall have no members” -SGM articles of incorporation.
“Church membership as such conveys no standing, responsibility or authority for governance of the corporation.” -CLC articles of incorporation.
”If they tell you to do something, do it. That’s the fundamental definition of obey. If they tell you to do something, do it.” – SGM Pastor Luan Nguyen defining SGM submission to SGM leadership.
Are we so far immersed that we can not tell freedom and truth from tyranny and manipulations anonymous?
Unless you are an SGM Pastor whose name appears on the Articles of Incorporation, your “membership” entitles you to spend, attend, and obey.
You belong to an organization that fails to even match up to the State of Maryland’s definition of a religious organization. That is why both CLC and SGM had to file as a Non-Religious corporation.
As a Christian, don’t you think you should be attending a real church, rather than CJ’s money machine?
What makes these SGM men so worthy of the reigns of your life and faith?
http://sdatcert3.resiusa.org/UCC-Charter/ViewDoc.asp?Film=B%2000363&Folio=0094&Pages=0003&Date=04%2001%202002&Ack=1000361986842726&Domain=Charter&ID=D06734453&Name=COVENANT%20LIFE%20CHURCH,%20INC.&source=1
Lydia:
Bill Clinton – it depends on how you define “it”
Deb/Dee – it depends on how you define “lie”
Me – if it is proven that the person knowingly gave a false testimony, he lied.
anonymous
“not kind”?!?
Defamation—also called calumny, vilification, slander (for transitory statements), and libel (for written, broadcast, or otherwise published words)—is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image.
In most civil law jurisdictions, defamation is dealt with as a crime rather than a tort.
Gene’s statements were not specific enough to be “factual,” at best he stated opinion. As Steve was not there, Steve is well within his rights “to wipe” SGM with a legal mop.
Given that SGM is a multi-national, non-religious corporation, this takes any theological defense off the table. Steve or Kingsway members are free to pursue legal remedies.
BTW
In Virginia Defamation is a criminal matter – VA Code Ann. § 18.2-209
Greetings, KWCC,
I saw your questions earlier. They are excellent questions.
I have some unique, interesting, well articulated answers to every one of those questions.
But the issue of Gene and Paul being labeled as liars and cheats has not been resolved. When it is, I would love to respond.
Dee/Deb spend many hours pointing fingers as they dissect Christian trends, and people, complete with videos.
The spotlight is now on them and the words they typed regarding Gene and Paul.
Lydia- thank you for the helpful and applicable post from CogRog. I had not seen it as I generally do not read over here.
He said: “what they say they actually believe to be true ……. This is not out right lying. This is a serious psychosis that is often referred to as pathological. They do actually believe they are communicating the truth….”
I agree with this analysis and I understand someone here like “anonymous” who is certain his pastor is not lying, when all the subtle intuitive body language clues that somebody is lying are missing. I understand how upset he is that deb and dee use the word “lie”.
One of my former PDI pastors, who said that a decent couple (who had privately expressed strong concerns to him that CJ was harsh and abusive) was “out of control”, was not lying. He believed it.
That same pastor, who told my (very loyal and supportive to leaders) best friend, that a particular person who held to a doctrinal position that was against SGM but was a majority view in Reformed history, was influenced by an evil spirit to hold to that position- I am not making this up really- was not lying. He believed what he said.
When the A team removed a middle age asst pastor ( compassionate, wise, and deservedly loved) because his “gifts did not fit” and replaced him with a much younger and inept guy, they did not lie. They believed what they were saying, they had convinced themselves. I was there and I am sure they did not “lie”.
I would find it preferable to think that people who are weak tell lies in a moment of fear to protect their job or organization, and know exactly what they are doing and feel guilty. Peter was afraid in the garden and lied. God is redemptive and delivers us from Satan the liar and father of lies, and from our weakness.
But how do you deal with people who cannot separate truth, or even a struggling person, from the accuser of the brethren? How were we supposed to deal with a PDI pastor who labeled true sheep- that did not line up to become clones- as demonized, or out of control? How can you submit to people that say things truthfully and believe they are true- they do not lie- but their version of truth is birthed by “leaders in the stead of God” ?
We left. I don’t know how anybody can stay. I was not at Kingsway and I have no idea what was truly going on there. But I do know that SGM has an insidious tendency to produce pastors who say things that are not true and come from the accuser of the brethren, that they are convinced are true and hold up as true and repeat to other people who believe it is true.
The kinds of accusations of lying we are seeing in the last few posts, I believe, are a self protective mechanism.
If the other person is truly convinced that which you believe to be a lie is true, then it challenges our own system of belief. If OTOH, they secretly know you are correct, but are purposefully lying, then we can be secure in our own correctness, our own goodness.
To be lying, one must at least be aware that what one is saying is at least partly untrue. And this is often a VERY difficult thing to prove – especially in cases like this.
It is, however, quite easy to be ignorant of the truth and saying that which is untrue without lying. And, even more subtly, it can be especially hard to actually discipline oneself to look carefully at the possibility something one believes is true may not be true, especially hard to force oneself to be ruthless in the evaluation of ones on beliefs. We are ALL weak in this regard. So much so that the obvious from outside our perspective can easily be an almost impossibly hidden mystery within our own.
Since that is the case, It is often best to focus on the content of what has been said rather than the intent of the person saying it. So did Gene lie? Who knows. But what he spoke is itself very unlikely to be true – or rather, unlikely to be the entire truth. Was Gene trying to hurt Steve? Who knows. But what He did was hurtful and destructive. And so forth.
And I think that is the intent of what Dee and Deb etc. try to do here. To expose the deeds and the people who do them to a light so that those who might otherwise become victims of those deeds can instead at least be informed of the danger involved.
Now to anonymous – I do not know your situation. But I do know that people who seek to order a peer’s steps rather than to guide a peer’s steps are generally dangerous.
Further, Church authority is marked by the concept of servant leadership. This is a true concept often misused. It is misused by the leader demanding those under him observe it. It is properly demonstrated by the leader demanding he himself observe it.
The kind of ‘unbelief’ Steve ‘demonstrated’, as I understand it, is primarily a lack of confidence in his own capabilities, not necessarily a lack of confidence in God’s capability. This is a rather common trait, and part of growing in Christ is learning to lean on God to supply strength in our weakness. You can’t beat this out of someone. You love it out of them, though encouragement. All this family meeting did was reinforce Steve’s ‘unbelief’, and give him far greater reason to believe he was right to doubt his own capabilities.
And from what I have been able to understand, this is the modus operandi of SGM. To degrade those who are weak under the guise of ‘guidance’ or ‘shepherding’. To quiet those who question under the guise of ‘submission to leadership’. To encourage an attitude of dependence on ‘leadership’, rather than independent dependence on God Himself.
This kind of heavy handed shepherding mentality is, from what I can glean, a very present example of sin becoming utterly sinful by using that which is good (guidance from one’s spiritual elders) and making it evil (oppression by ones spiritual … whatever they are). In short, it is law, not grace. And hence should probably be more aptly named “Sovereign Law Ministries”.
Zeta
Oh, anonymous,
This statement reminded me of Slick WIlly himself. Although, possibly more pompous. Say, anonymous, are you really just a member and not a SGM “big wig”? Or perhaps legal counsel for SGM? You seem to have some “insider”
knowledgespin to share… don’t hold back on us now! 😉I am looking forward to some unique, interesting, well articulated depositions myself. 🙂
“. But I do know that SGM has an insidious tendency to produce pastors who say things that are not true and come from the accuser of the brethren, that they are convinced are true and hold up as true and repeat to other people who believe it is true.”
Another example of not really lying but it WAS a lie is when some pastors told Noel and her husband about her 3 year old being abused by another SGM teen and the first thing they said to the parents was: You are going to have an opportunity to forgive today.
That is spiritual abuse, folks. That is cultic. Run away…fast.
But more than that…this type of thinking has been sited in SGM overall. It comes from the top.
Oh, and call the police.
Zeta,
which version or stream of Shepherding were you involved with?
“I have some unique, interesting, well articulated answers to every one of those questions.”
This was a weak attempt at self-deprecating humor.
Oh poo!
I was looking forward to seeing some logic chopping in action.
(Obscuring the issue by using overly-technical logic tools, especially the techniques of formal symbolic logic, that focus attention on trivial details)
Perhaps another day.
“Because of the combination of those three sins, Steve has gone down a very, very dark path…. I don’t necessarily want to put Steve in a negative light. I hope you know that. I hope you can believe that.”
So steve is becoming evil but I am not putting him in a negative light? btw: Does Gene ever give examples of his unbelief? Did he stop believing in Jesus Christ as Savior?
“Now what’s so important and what I want to impress upon you tonight and this is the most important thing I’m going to say, Steve is not a victim. Steve’s not a victim. This did not have to be this way.”
Why would he have to tell them that Steve is not a victim if he wasn’t.
First and foremost Gene was practicing the cult tactic of Milieu Control with this particular meeting. Now, I bet Gene did not know he was doing that. he was only parroting what his leaders do.
The SGM pastors I have run across in my day were not exactly independent thinkers. They do a lot of parroting.
anonymous,
And this was more than likely an attempt at appearing humble. Especially, if you are a SGM leader, which it is now my contention that you are (I have a good guess at who you are)…
Ummm, I’m no comedian (though I’ve been told I’m a witty person), but self-deprecation involves belittling oneself so as not to appear arrogant to your audience plus something funny, neither of which you did. So I’m not even sure you can call it “weak” or “self-deprecating.”
Something like this might have worked: “Hey, guys it may look like I know everything about the Genesway situation and that I’m a straight shooter, but in reality my answers to these questions are only gonna sound like Slick Willy’s answers. ;)”
Shining the light (nitpicking) in your direction, anonymous.
Anonymous
That is a cop out. I am disappointed in you.
Hey everyone
Are y’all telling me that some SGM bigwig cares two figs about what some gullible, easily deceived women think? You know that women cannot judge what goes on in leadership. Just to reassure all of you-I did make dinner tonight and even watered the Christmas tree.
Dee,
You have such wonderful domestic skills! I’ve also heard that you are quite the culinary expert…
Dee & Deb
There was a time when any and all negative information in regard to SGM was swiftly dealt with via threat of lawsuit served by G&G. Kris @ survivors noticed the lack of info online. When Survivors and Refuge exploded as fast as they did, the SGM remedy changed to a simple “ignoring” and denial.
Later, there was a wonderful SGM sermon that addressed the evils of blogs
and bloggers.
**
**
.
“I’m also concerned because at this point in time, we are at the pinnacle of the Information Age. You can in an instant find tons of information on any subject you want on Google. Do you realize that Google allows you to be one step away from a lot of heresies?
There are a lot of heretics out there with a lot of false teachings that have blogs. And it’s phenomenal to me in our age now, that what is represented on the Internet is now seen as fact, and authority, and truth! And the reality? Most of these guys who are writing blogs are 24-year-old guys living in their moms’ basement, sitting there in their underwear! That’s what they’re doing! They’ve got a robe on, and they’re just typing away. And they’re typing away their false teaching, which is honestly a bunch of garbage.
It’s out there! It’s just one click away.”
**
**
It is not that they care for you, it is their love of reputation, perhaps mixed in with a bit of morbid yet indignant curiosity, that keeps em reading.
They just can not help themselves at times.
Have to add that all SGM meetings are recorded in their entirety for
archival purposes, review, and distribution reasons. Celebrations, conferences, Sunday corporates, as a Guest speaker, New attitude, family meetings, etc.
If they truly wanted to understand, bring clarity, or repent they could.
SGM still keeps a copy of Bob Kauflins “Heroic Piano” for goodness sake!!
http://www.sweet-music.com/KAUF-HRP-CD.html
Hey BOB, $50!! Perhaps you should re-release it. 🙂
Unassimilated,
It seems to me that SGM got a jump start on a lot of ministries by their internet savvy. I’m sure they had no idea that this marvelous technology could backfire on them.
Unassimilated,
Speaking of blogs, the following comment appeared on Josh Harris’ blog earlier this afternoon.
http://www.joshharris.com/2010/12/preaching_notes_series_introdu.php#comment-50531
“Hi Josh, Hope you are well. Sorry this comment isn’t to do with the preaching notes. I didn’t have your email address so it was the only way I could contact you. I have only heard of yourself and SGM recently, probably through some link attached to John Piper’s site. I also have a friend who is a Youth Pastor in the Republic of Ireland who likes you.
However I have also noticed some blogs which seem to have a real problem with SGM as regards control and manipulation. Sadly it would appear that although some of the critics may express their issues in a very aggressive manner there does seem to be at least some truth in what they are saying.
I say this having experienced as a teenager and even into my twenties some spiritual abuse when the charismatic fellowship group I was a member of got attached to the Shepherding Movement which had its base in Fort Lauderdale. You may or not be familiar with it. Its main leaders included Derek Prince, Bob Mumford and Charles Simpson. There was much controversy at the time about it but it was only years later after much damage was done that they ‘officially’ apologised.
I am therefore concerned that SGM runs a similar authoritarian ship and not one where the leaders though strong when required are servants who don’t lord it over the flock as the Master commanded.Could you give me your ‘take’ on this and do you see this as an issue as certainly many ex-members do.
Your brother in Christ.”
This person’s experience sounds eerily familiar because I believe (s)he has posted several comments in this thread. (Hint: look for the British flag.)
It will be interesting to see whether Josh responds or simply removes the comment like I have seen him do before.
I also did sign language interpreting as well and knew Kathy @ GOB! One of my personal issues was that the leadership thought my ministry was sign language interpreting, and I strongly disagreed….so much so that I removed myself from the meeting where all the deaf people attended and started going to another group where my close relationships were (this is when GOB had several concurrent meetings on Sunday).
I’m trying to remember Karlton. I have to say that there are some things I can’t remember…maybe my mind is protecting me? LOL I would love to hear Karlton’s story. I’ll share more in detail at another time. I’ve been a little overwhelmed by how much info I’ve been taking in over the past 2 weeks since attending the Tullian Tchividjian meeting. BTW, yes…I saw the postings about Coral Ridge, etc. I’m not exactly sure what to think, but I will say, as someone recently told me “birds of a feather (???)…..” when referring to the association between him and SGM.
Hey, let me try again.
I am NOT the other anonymous on here. I am not a supporter of SGM etc.
I am trying to make sense of this.
Again, can someone who knows this story real well summarize what is going on in just few sentences so I can make better sense of this? That would be helpful.
Thanks.
Shepherding survivor,
My contact was through several loosely associated house churches that tended to follow the teachings of Derek Prince. I believe one of them eventually became a fairly well established independent charismatic church in the area, but they have since moved far away from this kind of thing. But as I said, I never ‘joined up’. It’s sort of like AmWay, while they are recruiting they give you lots of attention, but once they realize you’re not interested, they tend to disconnect. So over time I lost contact with most of the folks that were heavily involved. Also, once Derek Prince washed his hands of it
(wikipedia: Derek Prince withdrew in 1983, stating his belief that “we were guilty of the Galatian error: having begun in the Spirit, we quickly degenerated into the flesh.”),
most folks I knew involved with it moved away from it as well. But this was mostly a charismatic church thing in the ’70’s and Early ’80’s. That is one reason I was surprised to see it resurfacing in congregations that were pretty much at the very least cold to charismatic distinctives. I was even more surprised to find that so many of the SGM leaders had charismatic roots (like CJ) yet find themselves very much connected with and followed by some Southern Baptist congregations, whose Missions Organizations forbid even the private use of a ‘prayer language’.
Seems really odd to me the thing they’d find in common would be ‘shepherding’ mentality.
Zeta
To the anonymous who wants a summary…..just read the post for yourself. Why do we have to give you the cliff notes? Use your brain…….
This link sums up SGM’s main message to it’s members at Kingsway
http://www.flickr.com/photos/drtiki/2362088782/in/photostream/
Zeta,
Thanks for the info.The Shepherding took its toll on my Christians particularly through the DP influence.The devil always wants God’s children to become under subjection and fear. Imagine how you would feel if one of your children came under the controling and mamipulative influence of a stranger. How concerned and angry you would become. How much more so does our heavenly Father feel when he sees His children oppressed by those who (deceived by Satan)call themseves His apostles or Shepherds!
Spot on. We have met the enemy and it is us.
OB
You are asking our question-why CJ? If you note, he is strangely silent in all of this. He has his own Darth Vaders wannabes who do his bidding and then he can pretend that all of the churches are independent and he has nothing to do with what is happening. This man has to be one of the greatest Jesus freak shape shifters of our generation.
Did you know that he is toning down the charismatic element in SGM? He knows that it is offensive to his new homies-read SBC, Piper, etc. I believe he is in the process of a new transformation and permutation. The word is getting out about the issues in SGM and this could be damaging to him.
He has given at least $100,000 to Southern Seminary and he is not even Baptist. Why? Could he be preparing to allow his churches to be “assimilated”? I don’t know but something is afoot and this will be a fascinating story.
In my opinion, CJ does all sorts of things that benefit CJ. So, in watching the process, ask the following. How does this help CJ?
I have my own theory about CJ’s “reformation” watching this for years and knowing the players he is aligning himself with very well.
I think CJ has had the “authority” in his own bubble for a long time but now he wants legitimacy in bigger circles. This is about legacy. (If people could spend personal time with these guys in their bubble, they would be astounded at how self absorbed they are about their image)
There are big clues and small clues. And they all point to this being about CJ’s legacy. What better way to erase the “shepherding movement” stain of the past than to be legitimized by Mohler, Dever and Duncan?
I think we will see SGM become part of the SBC at some point in the future. Or at least, potential SGM wannabe pastors will go to SBTS. They really are not that far apart in method and doctrine anymore. CJ has been getting rid of the Charismatic stain. Now his movement is “reformed” enough to get into the club.
Lydia
You know, this could be the beginning of a PhD thesis. The transformation of a cult, which is what the shepherding movement was. Something like From Fringe to Legitimacy-A look of 5 decades of a movement through the life of one of its players.
Frankly, this is scary. If CJ becomes officially accepted by the SBC,Piper, et al, evangelical Christianity, as we knew it, is finished. It will fractionalize. Michael Spencer had it right. A bunch of us are in the evangelical wilderness. Thak God for the internet.
Let me address the “sin of unbelief” as Gene was using it in 2001. The overall idea was that God would call people to do something that was beyond their natural ability or gifting. If God said to do it, then he would provide the ability. Then combine that with the attitude toward mental illness and emotional problems and you have a perfect storm that Steve was caught in.
I do not disagree with the idea that sometimes God asks you to do something that is beyond you, but Gene, Brent and even Steve himself did not recognize the warning signs that this was not one of those cases. Steve just was not equipped to do that task. He was an excellent Assistant Pastor and a great Worship Leader and a gifted speaker, but there were some issues that needed to be resolved emotionally before he could take on that type of responsibility. And the leaders knew it, but had this wacky idea that because they thought Steve should go to Roanoke, it must be God and if it was God’s will for Steve to go, any hesitancy or mental anguish over going on Steve’s behalf was opposing God’s will, therefore opposing God and not believing that God would be able to empower him to do it, therefore the sin of unbelief.
Free,
the bottomline is that WAY too much focus is put on “individuals” as leaders in most church’s. That is the starting point. And what is sad is that most pew sitters cannot imagine NOT having a human authority in the Body. Let us get back to biblical principles of mature believers who guide AND that all believers should strive to be led by the Holy Spirit. Not another human all their lives. The mature believers would be teaching this. Not teaching folks to obey them.
We must change the very basic paradigm of what it means to follow Christ and be involved in the ekklesia. We have the very basics wrong. And that is where all this comes from to various cultish degrees. SGM is a full blown cult that is seeking legitimacy.
“Frankly, this is scary. If CJ becomes officially accepted by the SBC,Piper, et al, evangelical Christianity, as we knew it, is finished. It will fractionalize. Michael Spencer had it right. A bunch of us are in the evangelical wilderness. Thak God for the internet.”
Personally, I think evangelical Christianity as defined by the movers and shakers is DEAD spiritually. It is simply part of the culture and now a “world view”.
I think a small remnant is seeing it and leaving the institutions or staying within the institutions to be “missionaries”.
As my mom told me before she died, the American evangelical church is a mission field. I could not understand what she meant at the time but I do understand it now. She knew.
The worst part is that we are exporting this stuff.
But I agree about the PhD thesis on how one transforms and legitimizes a cult. Image perception management. It is fast becoming bigger than PR! But it is much more insidious.
Re: Dee’s post:
“You know, this could be the beginning of a PhD thesis. The transformation of a cult, which is what the shepherding movement was. Something like From Fringe to Legitimacy-A look of 5 decades of a movement through the life of one of its players.
Frankly, this is scary. If CJ becomes officially accepted by the SBC,Piper, et al, evangelical Christianity, as we knew it, is finished. It will fractionalize. Michael Spencer had it right. A bunch of us are in the evangelical wilderness. Thak God for the internet.”
I agree 100% ! I’m assuming that in a previous post that SBTS stands for Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and is related to the SBC? Well, SGM or Covenant Life has pulled the plug on their Pastors College, so I’m wondering if there’s a connection here. Maybe the goal or hope is to transition any of their upcoming pastors through “SBTS” if that’s what the acronym stands for.
Re: Dee’s post:
“Frankly, this is scary. If CJ becomes officially accepted by the SBC,Piper, et al, evangelical Christianity, as we knew it, is finished. It will fractionalize. Michael Spencer had it right. A bunch of us are in the evangelical wilderness. Thak God for the internet.”
I agree 100% ! I’m assuming that in a previous post that SBTS stands for Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and is related to the SBC? Well, SGM or Covenant Life has pulled the plug on their Pastors College, so I’m wondering if there’s a connection here. Maybe the goal or hope is to transition any of their upcoming pastors through “SBTS” if that’s what the acronym stands for.
Since I’ve been trying to catch up on all the news over the past few weeks, I have come to the same conclusion as Dee….I fear for “Christianity” as we’ve known it….it will become something totally strange, unfamiliar and illegitimate.
Pampy
Just think-God gave us the Internet like He gave Luther the Gutenberg Press. We can find each other and send encouragement and prayers to one another. The remnant lives and can be found in the blogsphere.
“Since I’ve been trying to catch up on all the news over the past few weeks, I have come to the same conclusion as Dee….I fear for “Christianity” as we’ve known it….it will become something totally strange, unfamiliar and illegitimate.”
Micheal Spencer wrote about your concern in his “Coming of the Evangelical Collapse”
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/the-original-coming-evangelical-collapse-posts
Remember, the mega’s will survive on size alone and their social brand gospel. SGM is a sort of legalistic social gospel cult. Homeschooling, courting, etc.
As I predicted at 8:42 last evening, Josh deleted the comment which I quoted in my comment.
Post to follow next week. No wonder you never read negative or challenging comments on Josh Harris’s blog.
Josh – caught ya this time…
Lydia,
Thanks for the imonk link. I’ll check it out when I have time to sit and digest everything.
Dee,
yes, I’m thankful for the internet and for blogs like this ! 🙂
Deb, We are not surprised he deleted the comment. The only thing that surprises me is that he was not moderating every single comment beforehand.
They cannot allow people to think for themselves. It is dangerous.
Lydia,
Josh probably won’t make that mistake again…
Deb,
Did you keep a copy of the comment you tried to post on Josh’s blog? If so send it to me, I’ll repost it and we’ll see if it was the message or the messenger that he has an issue with. 🙂
Lydia
You can be sure he will turn on moderation after we expose his nonsense. Tune in next week.
Karl
I’ll get the message from Deb – she did save it. Thank you. This oughtta be interestin’.