Ed Young Jr. is a Wicked & Evil Man; He is a Wolf PERIOD!!!!!!

Dear God : Please Bring him Down………. Or better yet Please Come Quickly. I don’t know how much more of this Evil, Evil, Evil world I can take.

Gotta keep up those lease payments on the private jet… Lease to purchase, right?

This is what can be expected when Christians give away their own priesthood to “God’s chosen”. I’m guessing Ed didn’t read the part where Jesus had no place to lay His head. The widow who gave all she had, Paul making tents and the disciples life and death obviously tell a different story. Christians need to understand that church is not intended to have a professional speaker sell “blessings” and feel good stories. It needs to be truly fellowshipping with brothers and sisters in Christ – praying, sharing, laughing, crying and taking care of each other. Where truth can be spoken in love and the Holy Spirit can mold our will to God’s. Until more Christian’s realize this I am afraid we will continue to see the American church slide into a “spritual” social club – where networking is more important than serving.
Thanks for letting me vent – keep shining the light

Well, at least with selling indulgences you allow people to enjoy the sin first!

There is a difference between a Born Again Christian and a Wolf in Sheep’s Clothing.
Jesus would not call this man a Born Again Christian, He would call him a Wolf.

There are many “pastors” who make a Mockery of Jesus, and I doubt Jesus Would call any of them Born Again Christians.

We have to be very careful not to wallow in our sin by trying to make it appear normal. This is one of the doctrines that I had to study in depth because I came from Ed Young world. After 20 years of hearing that sins are mistakes and we all sin all the time, I really had to beg God to take away my sin filter when studying.

When Paul said he was “chief of all sinners”, he was not referring to his new life in Christ. But who he was before the road to Damascus.

We have to wonder why salvation is referred to as being Born Again? Or Paul states we are new creatures in Christ? How come salvation means we “die” to self. Hudson Talyor referred to it as the “exchanged life”. What does it mean to have the indwelling Holy Spirit which all true believers have?

We cannot remain in consistent willful sin knowing truth and be Born Again. It bothers us. The Holy Spirit does not allow it to go on so long. We have godly sorrow. Read Hebrews 10: 26-31 and come to grips with what it means. then read ALL of 1 John. Not just the “we all sin” verse but also the rest of the book.

Our very thoughts are sinful. We are born in corrupted bodies. But when our thoughts become sinful actions, consistently, we should question our salvation. Even the demons believe that Jesus Christ is Messiah. For us, it is much more. It is NEW LIFE.

Do not anymore worry over whether such shenanigans are done consistently by believers. There is fruit involved. And fruit is NOT how many attend your church or how many baptized. It is the fruit that comes from abiding in the Vine. It looks more like Matt 5 than Ed Young.

I agree with Karl. If the man self-identifies as a Christian, he is a Christian.

It’s embarrassing, but there is no way around it. A fellow disciple who names the name of Christ is a very high profile, public douche. But there is no doubt in my mind that he is a true Christian.

Ed Young is a product of an American Christian seminary and the American Christian business machine. I don’t see much difference between the American business church model and the money-making ventures of the Middle Ages like the sale or relics and pardons. But Ed Young can only be faulted for exploiting to the hilt the same “opportunities” that a more sincere disciple would see as temptation to be overcome.

Our seminaries promote the idea that those called into ministry are special people, and that their job is the most important job one can have. It’s there that ministers first get the idea that parishoners are blind sheep who need to be led by a dedicated special called “man of God”. The American church business model is built on this premise.

Ed Young may be caught on tape preaching the God as extortionist “pay your 10% or suffer” message, but it is a common message I have heard in many churches (we moved a lot in the early years of our marriage). He totally deserves to be busted on this, but so do all the other preachers in America teaching the same thing on Sunday morning.

Lydia, You know darn good and well that Ed Young’s doctrine is completely within the bounds of accepted Orthodox Christianity. Comparing him to a Mormon is not a reasonable comparison.

I read Matthew 7 at your request, and not for the first time, I might add.

You don’t get to cherry pick who is in the family of believers. Ed Young is a Christian. Jim Bakker is a Christian. Jim was a Christian before, during and after his insane empire building years in which he ripped a bunch of people off and embarrassed the name of Christ. He was a Christian while he was in jail, and he is still a Christian today. John 6, esp. vv. 37-40.

I think if you’ll back up to the beginning of Matthew chapter 7, you would get the idea that the fruit one most needs to be concerned with is one’s own. This is not directed at you personally, but all of us.

I agree that if we ourselves are trying to sort people out, it gets confusing very quickly, Isn’t that the whole point of the parable of the wheat and the tares? (Matthew 13:24-30 and bold cap verse 29.)

I wish that Ed Young was the only only person teaching these things, but I have heard similar in Baptist, charismatic, Assemby of God, independent Bible (DTS grads, one of your faves! 😉 and E Free churches. Admittedly, Ed Young takes it to a “whole nuther level”, showing absolutely no restraint or humility about his perceived right to “share in the grain” ( I Corinthians 9, I Timothy 5). But there are many less popular teachers who preach the same ideas about tithing, 10% of gross, only to the church you are attending, or God will put holes in your pockets and all your money will disappear like that. *snap*

I am not against paid clergy, by the way. I love my pastor. He is a truly humble brother in Christ who is grateful to have the opportunity to stand up in front, wear the collar (so to speak) and share the good news. He doesn’t preach about tithing, he talks about giving. We have a basket in the back of the church for folks to surreptitiously contribute as they are able and willing.

SS,

Thank you! I agree, we are in agreement…wait..looking outside…YES the planets are aligning … it is the dawning of the age of Aquarius….oops sorry…old person’s moment there.

But you make a good point. These people are Christians, at least in that they have accepted Jesus and had some type of conversion experience. It is what I have said in the past, if anything it is evidence that there is no one up there, the conversion experience and feelings are of our own design and there are both good and bad people on both sides.

That explanation rings much truer than trying to cherry pick only the well behaved people as Christian representatives and then claiming God miraculously changed their lives for the better while at the same time sweeping the embarrassing representatives under the carpet or into the closet.

Lydia,

I have quoted 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 in the past with regard to a former church. We are commanded to judge each other as Christians. Thank for sharing this key passage of Scripture.

Lydia

Don’t worry. I am so miffed off at Ed Young and Mac Brunson that I have to write in order to prevent myself from going mad! No chance of us quitting soon. I know that sends a cold chill through a couple of people.

Dee,

If you’d be so kind…define for me “sinful nature”, be as specific as you can…Adam and Eve, without a sinful nature obviously “sinned” as did the angels. Eve sinned first…did Adam receive a “sinful nature” as the result of Eve’s sin or his own? I find the concept interesting, if not a little vague. What exactly is a “sinful nature”?

Dee,

So clarify this for me… if Adam chose disobedience before the fall, how was he any different after the fall?

Dee,

Maybe this way will be clearer. From our discussion so far I can deduce that…

1. Adam had free will both before and after the fall (no change)
2. Adam had both the desire and capability to disobey God (no change)

So, in what sense was Adam (and by extension all mankind) different after the fall than he was before?

What exactly changed…

Dee,

I have a small problem with your statement that “he did not have the desire to disobey God until the moment he was confronted with the choice”

That doesn’t seem to make sense to me…it’s like saying I had no desire to eat an Almond Joy until I knew that I could. Seems sort of obvious doesn’t it, I mean no one would have a desire to do anything if they weren’t aware of the choice, right?

So we are kind of back where we started…Adam had a desire or inclination toward sin both before he fell and afterwards.

Back to the original question…then what happened after the fall … what do we “inherit” that Adam didn’t already have before he fell?

Of course, every act changes us, but that is not what I was referring to. What I was trying to get at was that Christian theology says that each human being, born since Adam sinned has inherited a “sinful nature”. Since Adam chose to sin before having a “sinful nature” I am asking for a definition of “sinful nature”, if it is not the desire or capacity to choose evil (which Adam apparently already had), then what exactly is it that the rest of us now inherit which we wouldn’t have had if Adam had not sinned.

Lydia…

So you are saying that before the fall man was immortal and afterwards he was mortal…is that correct? So what we inherit from Adam was mortality, yes?

Yes, I know what the bible says, I am asking you to tell me what you think it means…for example it is obvious that Adam did not die in the day that he ate the fruit…so obviously it’s either wrong or it means something else…

what exactly do we inherit from Adam because of his sin?

Karlton, they did die eventually after a long time but man was so evil that God later declared that man would not live past 120 years. And the evil was so bad that God eventually wiped out 99.9% of mankind with a flood.

I am reluctant to answer your questions because I am not so sure it matters exactly how the sin thing works. As in it being an inherited sin gene or just that we are born to die because now we are born in corrupted bodies which affects even our thoughts.

It does say their eyes were opened…so now they are ashamed they are naked when before they weren’t…and they hid from God. They became aware of evil which obviously was already present. (A whole other topic!)

But if you notice, God only cursed the land and animals. He did not curse Adam and Eve but described what life would be like. So with cursed land and animals and a corrupted bodies, sin would be in the world, too. (such as lions eating lambs, droughts, even tornados, etc)

I think Dee has a good explanation. The only place I might disagree is with Eve. She admitted she was deceived. Adam blamed God and Eve for his willful sin. (Adam had actually witnessed some minor creation of the Garden being planted. He had witnessed the Glory of God in a way that Eve had not)

That’s a lot of things to talk about LOL…ok before coffee here are my first impressions…

1. If eating from the tree “opened” their eyes to understand the difference between good and evil, then it is reasonable to assume that before he ate, he did not have this ability. In other words, to Adam, he would not have understood that disobeying God was evil or a bad thing to do. Think of it like a very young child..mom says don’t eat the cookies..then a little later dad says “here, have a cookie”, the child eats but doesn’t connect eating the cookie as something “bad” to do. If that’s so, how does God justly condemn Adam for his act?

2. The second thing, we still have the problem of “thou shalt surely die”, since they had not eaten of the tree of life (and if I had been in the garden and had any intelligence at all, that’s the first tree I would have eaten from!) they were going to die anyway, so not much of a threat there unless God meant to carry out the execution immediately, which he apparently did not do.

Adam, as a simple man without the theology, would have understood it literally, well actually since nothing had died up till then I guess it wouldn’t have been a threat at all since Adam would not have any frame of reference from which to understand the concept of death, physical or spiritual.

“Adam, as a simple man without the theology, would have understood it literally, well actually since nothing had died up till then I guess it wouldn’t have been a threat at all since Adam would not have any frame of reference from which to understand the concept of death, physical or spiritual.”

This is where I disagree totally. Adam had more theology than any of us because he was created and knew he was created. He had personal interaction with the Creator. He also witnessed some creating when God planted the Garden. (Not clear in the NIV translation). Adam knew God personally. He knew what God was capable of…God talked to him and brought every animal to Adam for him to name. He woke up to another formed human taken from his side as his Ezer..companion comparable…to him. He knew God formed Eve from his side. I mean, how much “theology” is all of this? If theology is knowledge of God, then Adam had it up close and personal.

Karl,

you said:

The second thing, we still have the problem of “thou shalt surely die”, since they had not eaten of the tree of life (and if I had been in the garden and had any intelligence at all, that’s the first tree I would have eaten from!) they were going to die anyway, so not much of a threat there unless God meant to carry out the execution immediately, which he apparently did not do.

Interesting isn’t it. The tree of life had the power to impart immortality, and it is quite clear that had they eaten of it after the fall, they would have lived forever in their sinful state. But it does appear they never touched it.

Remember also that the tempter did not push them towards the tree of life, but rather focused their attention on the tree of knowledge of good and evil, telling them the lie that if they ate of it they would be like God. In essence, Satan made sure they stayed focused on that knowledge of ‘good and evil’ tree.

Now, I have a theory. I don’t actually think there was any real power in the tree itself. God desired for Adam and Eve to know the difference between good and evil – otherwise why present them with the possibility of choosing evil? But what He wanted was for them to understand it through the path of choosing good. Instead they came to know it by choosing evil. Choosing good, or choosing evil changes us. Many times for the rest of our lives. Certainly this was the case for Adam and Eve – not only for the rest of their lives, but for all of mankind!

Think back to when we were very young. We are tempted. We choose wrong. What follows? Guilt and shame. Or We are tempted, we choose right. What follows – release, a sense of perhaps pride or joy. Either way we experience the temptation, either way we ‘learn’ about good and evil. With the first choice we learn about good and evil through being evil. With the second choice we learn about them by being good. The second choice is the path which leads to spiritual life.

I think Adam and Eve learned about good and evil by being presented with a choice and a command. The ‘tree of knowledge of good and evil’ could have been anything. The important part was how they processed the choice, and through what path they came to know good and evil. Once they began that journey down the path of evil, there was no turning back. Immortality had to be denied. God either took it away, or they never had it to start with. But either way, they lost immortality and the text of scripture is consistent with either possibility. I think it is more consistent with the idea they were initially mortal, because otherwise the tree of life is a out of place piece of furniture in the story having been singled out as important, but having no real purpose.

But we are not told precisely either way. However, given the real history of the world and the very likely probability our physical form is the result of a long history of natural processes ( I believe in the case of mankind guide very specifically by His hand), this understanding of their initial state also has the added plus of being consistent with the known history of the natural world.

Zeta

Dee,

You ask a good question…how did he understand it if he hadn’t seen it? More importantly, remember he was supposedly created and given language yet had absolutely no experiential knowledge to allow him to understand the very words he supposedly used…well, forget that for the moment I want to stay on topic.

I appreciate all the time everyone is putting into this but I don’t think I’ve gotten a good explanation yet. I’m not trying to be obtuse but I’ve heard many theories, ideas, conjectures and opinions but the original question still remains

What is the “sinful nature” which Adam (and by extension all mankind) received and the rest of mankind inherited after the fall, keeping in mind that items 1 and 2 below do not seem to qualify since they existed before the fall as well.

1. Adam had free will both before and after the fall (no change)
2. Adam had both the desire and capability to disobey God (no change)

What exactly changed…

I have no answers for you Karlton except what I have experienced while reading the Word (something I had read many times before) and I suppose that is why Paul said that the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.

The experience is that I truly became saved when I realized (was convicted) how horribly sinful I was deep down. And I had called myself a Christian for many years before that happened. I did not look sinful on the outside to most people. And I had not thought of myself as a horrible sinner before that day.

I do not know why it happened like that but I was sincerely seeking truth.

“1. Adam had free will both before and after the fall (no change)
2. Adam had both the desire and capability to disobey God (no change)

What exactly changed…”

Two things changed which drastically affected their lives: Animals and land were cursed. The other change is that their bodies started aging toward death. And we forget that animals had to be slaughtered to make clothes for them to hide their nakedness. Eve follows Adam out of the garden and soon after we have the whole Cain and Able evil.

…No man has all the answers…’His ways are not our ways”…It is the Father that draws one …not a person. If we must be convinced to accept Christ…and the Bible…will it “stick?” That important decision must be made “directly from their own heart and mind” …My opinion…doesn’t mean anything, but that. In my own life, until I felt Him draw me…no teacher, no wonderful person whom tried to live by example, could truly lead me anywhere. It was when, the Father, drew my heart to Him that I accepted Christ..and in my own free will… chose to accept Him…not someone even… lovingly trying to convince and teach me….And still, as long, as I live in this “earth suit”…I will be a sinner…but, now convicted by the Holy Spirit to want me to work on myself…continuely…a work in progress. And some questions one may have…may never be answered and…that is where…you…accept or reject that which you have questioned…maybe never to understand or have explained….You make the decision that faith is believing…when you just can’t see…and whether that is believed…is up to the individual.

“Paul said that the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. ” I would disagree, it is foolish to those who think rationally and use logic and reason to make sense of the world. Paul, of course, couldn’t phrase it quite that way, he would have lost too many potential converts.”

Yet, I believe it is true as ignorant as that sounds to you. . If it is a historical fact that Paul was an up and coming trusted Pharisee, educated by the great Gamelial, with everything to gain by imprisoning and stoning Christians, why would he become one of them who was so hated by the ruling classes.

I was not limiting myself to physical events, it was an open ended question. To your points…

1. If we lost fellowship with God what does THAT mean since clearly God continued to communicate with mankind throughout the OT.

2. So we were mortal before the fall, but could have eaten from the Tree of Life, then after the fall we were cut off from the tree…hmmm seems overly complicated to me, why put the tree there in the first place. In addition, not aging is the same as not growing, so if Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life he would never have been able to populate the earth?

3. In bondage to the animal nature withing us, that is vague…I can certainly choose to do the correct thing when presented with a choice…I’ve done it many time as I am sure you have. So I’m not sure exactly what that means.

Karl,
With all due respect to you…I don’t think you want any answers to prove Christianity… I think you enjoy the debate itself……May I suggest a book…The Case for Christ…by Lee Strobel…Mr Strobel was an investigative reporter for the Chicago Tribune who claimed he was a spiritual skeptic. You may just enjoy the read.

Gizelle,

I read the book almost 10 years ago, it hasn’t gotten any better has it? It simply repeats Christian doctrine to an already believing audience. I will say he is very good at being dramatic, but the “evidence” is about as weak as it gets and he never answers many of the “questions” he talks about.

I wasn’t seeking answers to prove Christianity, what I was trying to do was demonstrate that when looked at closely, and when Christians are given the opportunity to provide their own answers without an atheist chiming in, that the story itself breaks down and requires all kinds of gyrations, twist, turns and caveats just to keep it’s own internal storyline consistent.

I was hoping that possibly someone might look at it all, (I’d like to follow the theological line forward through the NT) and exclaim, this just isn’t right, why is a story given supposedly by God to simple people so difficult to follow without having to make hundreds, if not more, adjustments and caveats to keep the stories from contradicting themselves internally. I want you to really see what a non-believer sees when he looks.

Having been a Christian I realize that the vast, virtually all, Christians became Christians before studying theology or critically reading the Bible, so the tendency is to believe what you are being told, at least initially. Afterwards, it is difficult to see it from the outside.

Lydia,

it isn’t a debate, as I mentioned above it is just a search for a simple, agreed upon answer to a single event which doesn’t simultaneously contradict the bible story in other places.

This is what critical thinking is all about, it’s about examining each assertion, each premise and making sure that what you believe is grounded in reasonableness and is rational.

I do think you are more than intelligent enough to participate and contribute, I haven’t seen any signs of stupid people on this blog.

Dee,

I would disagree. I think there are two things you are not considering when you look at humankind’s behavior. The first is the timespan, you mention programs in the inner city, but really I look at our history over centuries not individual lifetimes. We are, in many nations, far more civilized now then ever before in our history. We no longer chop off a hand for stealing a loaf of bread, we no longer beat women because they are not virgins, we no longer drown children because they are not the right sex or because they are born with a deformity. There will always be individuals who are problematic, because of trauma, birth defects and environmental causes, we can’t stop nature from screwing up sometimes, but as a whole we have progressed eons from the behavior we exhibited only a few centuries ago.

Ironically, the societies which seem to have made the most progress are the ones where reason and humanism can flourish without being crushed underfoot by religion. It began with the enlightenment and has continued to this day. For comparison look at the nations where religion rules with an iron fist, where you cannot, raise a voice in defiance of the established religion and see how much moral progress is to be found…precious little.

When you look at people and determine that they are deeply flawed it is only because you look through a lens which is crafted, like the old circus mirrors, to give that impression. Humans are greedy, selfish, aggressive, possessive, tribal and prone to violence. They are also compassionate, tender, caring, nurturing and protective…these are the traits given to us by evolution, by our need to survive. They have served us well in the past, but the changes in our societies easily out pace evolution’s ability to keep up. What we now have is a society and civilization in transition. We need to find ways to reapply or refocus our natural tendencies in a more productive manner. Religion cannot help us in this quest because it is non-changing, by definition its morals are timeless, its methods inflexible, it will not serve us, it will only slow us down, increasing the likelihood that we will not find a way to refocus our tendencies in time. I mentioned a lens earlier…if you take a man with all of his traits and tendencies and then fashion a lens from religion, one which makes the very actions which define us as evil, then it is with little wonder that when we look at humanity using that lens that we appear to be flawed and hopelessly lost. When however you remove the lens you see humanity for what it is, as Hamlet spoke…

“What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god!”

We are not flawed beings, in any sense of the word, we are a spectacular creation of nature, we are made from the dust of the stars themselves. No religion, no belief in any God or gods can give us more nobility and specialness of purpose. We are literally the universe itself becoming sentient.

You spoke of being grateful that you had a place to take your guilt. I would make the case that there is no need of someone to release you from your guilt. Guilt is only an indicator, a litmus paper of the mind to prick my conscience when I do something which I know to be wrong, for selfish purposes. I learn from it, and dispose of it when no longer needed, I do not carry it around like some albatross around my neck looking for someone else to rid me of it’s stench. I take responsibility for the decisions I make which were wrong and I rejoice in the ones I make correctly and I continually strive to better myself for my own benefit and those around me. No magical gods, no angels and no fairy tales. Just myself, those who journey with me in this life and the world around me. These are all the companions that I need to have an incredible, wondrous life filled with passion, joy, inquisitiveness and love. Who could ask for any more…

Dee,

Yes, you listed some people who have committed terrible atrocities, are you saying that therefore we do not live in a better society today than we did 500 or 1000 years ago?

Yes there are sex slaves throughout the world and 500 or 1000 years ago no one would have considered it wrong, same goes for regular slavery.

You aren’t really trying to sell me on the fact that society has not made and is not making any forward progress over it’s history are you?

Karlton, Do you find it disconcerting, as an atheist, that some obscure carpenter from the ME who was executed by the Roman authorities was able, without worldly power, to influence an entire calander dating system?

Of course, that “proves” nothing but it sure is interesting. :o)

Lydia,
Yes, and it is equally interesting that out of 12 months 5 are named after Roman gods and godesses and 2 are named after Roman emperors. You are also correct in that it doesn’t mean a thing.

Dee,

Personally I find it silly to bother changing AD or BC to BCE and CE, I suppose some people find it offensive, maybe people of other faiths who don’t like having to use a calendar that uses the central character of another religion as a dividing line. Got me on that one, I can;t even remember the last time I wrote A.D. unless it was when I did history papers in school.

The reason for the change to the Gregorian calendar was simple accuracy and since the Roman Catholic church was involved (the moving days of the old calender were affecting when easter was being celebrated), it is no wonder or surprise that Christ was used.

Orion’s Belt

I knew I should have listened in math class! But, upon my second and third reading, I am getting the idea. Well said.

Someone said, “I agree with Karl. If the man self-identifies as a Christian, he is a Christian.”

That is not necessarily true. Even Jesus Christ taught that there would be false Christian converts, people who sincerely believe they are Christians but who are not.

(Jesus warned such people that on judgment day, He will tell the false converts, “get away from me, I never knew you” after they say, “but Lord did we not do many good deeds in your name?”).

The New Testament Bible also says that there are people who pretend to be Christians so they can dupe and swindle true believers – in such examples, the false ones are sometimes called “wolves” while the true believers are called “sheep.” True believers are told by Christ that one way to sort out the true from the false believers is to judge them by their fruit (a good true gives good fruit, a bad tree, bad fruit).

Lastly, there are many people who do not understand that being a Christian means accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, as many people operate under the false assumption that simply attending church, reading a Bible, or donating money to a charity makes them “Christian.”

Hi Leaky

I absolutely agree, 100%, with your first comment. One of our regular commenters, Lydia, has said precisely what you have said. There are certainly wolves. What surprises me is the number of people who will not accept the concept of wolves in the church. There are churches who have had pedophiles molest their kids. Then, the people in the church spend more time “helping”
the pedophile than the kids who were harmed. Yes, yes I know that no one is beyond redemption. However, I think that many cannot accept the fact that people will use the church to their own ends.

To wit, your comment on Ed Young. I think Ed has jumped into the money thing with all of his heart. He was unable to resist the Dallas money trap and he is playing it big time.So many people fall for men like him. I wonder if it is because he is made in their image and that makes them feel comfortable. Perhaps they deserve each other. But I can’t help but feel that many are deceived and hurt by him. I wish more in the church would speak out against this stuff. There seems to be a conspiracy of the complicit.

Thanks for your thoughtful comments and welcome.

O great, some spam organization has found your blog. Good grief!

I am blown away by you people. You think you have the right to sit in the seat of Judge. I was googling the Holy Spirit when I found this link. Wow! Did google screw up or what. If you have a problem with Ed Young, be a child of God and write or call him. Don’t cowardly sit back and bash a man who can’t even defend your foul words. You think owning a plane or a million dollar home is a sin? Most of you don’t know Ed from Adam. You have no idea what it’s like to travel the world over preaching the gospel and leading a church of thousands. The pull he has on his life and family is something you will never understand. I live in NM and I too don’t know Ed. But I am a follower of Christ and there is nothing Godly about this discussion. It’s a shame that you think you can prosper but pastors are supposed to suffer and be without. I understand that excess is no good for anyone but how dare you think you should decide. I’m fully aware that this will probably not be received but I can’t help but stand for what’s right. Leave the man alone and let God take care it. If you don’t like Ed, don’t listen to him but no one needs you to save the rest of us. You are not the Holy Spirit.

Leaky, All this latest from Ed is coming from desperation.

Lydia, you have got to be kidding me. You think the most godly thing you can do is bash someone to others on a blog and then call it uncovering a wolf? And then you throw scripture out to make what you are doing okay. Believe me, I know scripture and you seem to have overlooked 1 Corinthians 13. Or how about that plank that’s in your eye. How about you tell me where you fall short first and then I will listen to what you have to say about others. You actually think that this post is an asset to the Kingdom of God? If this post has done anything, it has just proven once again that the church is divided. No wonder there are people who don’t want anything to do with church or God. We don’t encourage and rebuke, we rip apart and name call. Since you know scripture I won’t quote the first and greatest commandment. And if you think Paul meant for you to speak ill of someone as a way of rebuke, you are again mistaken. You are to go to them in love and if they don’t listen go back with someone else. I’m sad you think I have made up a religion. I don’t call discouraging others from slamming Gods’ anointed a religion, I call it following the example of Christ. The pharisees wanted to stone the young lady but it was Christ who said if you are without sin throw first. It’s one thing to know scripture and another to know the heart of the Word (Jesus Christ).

Dee, I am not denying the fact that some church leaders misuse church money. But explain to me why a jet and an expensive house is not okay for a pastor. And maybe Ed doesn’t receive an offering the way you think he should. But why throw stones with your blog? People will have their opinions but why spread meanness. Just decide not to support him and don’t. When you choose to give in an offering, you are giving it to God. You are planting it in the soil of your choice and then your hands are free of it. The pastor of that church will be held accountable for what is done with it. But by God not man. I wasn’t claiming that you could save others. That is not what I meant. But what you and Lydia call warning is just a “godly” way of saying gossip.

I appreciate you allowing me to have a different point of view. That’s what a discussion board is for, right?

Stunned, Do you actually think Ed Young Jr. has read this post? You think he has been “called” out and “exposed” by this blog? My point, to be as clear as possible, If you have an issue with Ed Young or anyone else call them out to their face and let them respond. Don’t think that this way of doing it is Gods’ way.

Heather

i think about 10 years ago, I might have felt as you do now. However, I have changed my mind.

Try making a negative comment on Ed Young Jr’s blog. Anyone who is comfortable with their life and thoughts usually have little problem with opposing opinions. Ed is so uncomfortable, he had videos of his sermon removed from Vimeo. Is he ashamed? And why?

As for gossip. I think you have been listening to those who would have you believe that keeping secrets is better than confronting problems. Look at Scripture. The reason it rings true is that the Bible tells the story with all the pain and sin. No secrets. If I had written the story I would have not allowed all that awful gossip to be part of the narrative. You know, Bathsheba, the guy who had an affair with his mother in law, incest, revenge, etc. all preserved for eternity.

Please read our post on the issue of gossip. It is usually used by churches who have secrets to keep.http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/05/11/shhh-dont-talk/

Finally, you can be sure that Ed knows about this blog post. Google his name and you will see our blog and many others chastising him. he has people who check his name in the news everyday. The proof is-he pulled the video of his horrible tithing sermon.

Remember, God uses prophets and others to confront those who would misuse his church. How do you know that this is not God’s way?

“Stunned, Do you actually think Ed Young Jr. has read this post? You think he has been “called” out and “exposed” by this blog? My point, to be as clear as possible, If you have an issue with Ed Young or anyone else call them out to their face and let them respond. Don’t think that this way of doing it is Gods’ way.”

Uh oh. That means John was in sin for writing 1 John 3. And it also means Paul was in sin for calling out Peter publicly and then writing about it for millions to read for 2000 years. Who did Paul think he was rebuking Peter in front of all thsoe people? And what about poor Hy and AL in 1 Tim 1?

Let’s take a hard cold logical look at Heather’s suggestion we go to Ed personally. (Fly to Dallas and try to get an appointment?)

The problem with her logic is that Ed has striven to be a PUBLIC person. And when what he says and does is for PUBLIC consumption (even making money off it!) then he is fair game. Ed, himself, wanted it that way. He wanted to be well known. He has spent tons of money making himself well known.

In fact, that makes it totally necessary to analyze his teaching with the Word and check his fruit.

After all, Paul commended the Bereans for doing just that.

Matthew 18 is for those who sin against you personally. It is not about what PUBLIC teachers of the Word teach and do. Ed loved being famous until the bad stuff came out.

I found it funny that Heather said we shouldn’t be saying anything but we should trust the Holy Spirit to take care of things.

Heather said, “You think you have the right to sit in the seat of Judge.”

Just like you have just done toward us, Heather?

Heather, you also said, “Don’t cowardly sit back and bash a man who can’t even defend your foul words.”

Heather, I’d appreciate it if you would answer this question. Why is it you think that Ed can’t defend himself here? I believe he has the ability to read or at least have this read to him. And he has the ability to write or at least dictate something on here. So what is it about him that you believe would render him unable to do so? (And please, try to stick to answering the question as opposed to talking your way around it again.)

Heather wrote, “You think owning a plane or a million dollar home is a sin?”

Heather, I don’t believe anyone wrote that owning a plane or a million dollar home is a sin. But if you are willing to tell me which person said that, I will go back and be happy to tell them they are wrong. Please just find the quote for me so I can do so.

Heather, you also said, “You have no idea what it’s like to travel the world over preaching the gospel and leading a church of thousands.”

Heather, I am curious, how would you have any knowledge of whether any one on here has ever traveled the world to preach the gospel or not? Or lead a church of thousands? (And a side question for you- is that some how more valuable than leading a church of twelve?)

You said, “The pull he has on his life and family is something you will never understand.”

I agree with you on this one. Just as I will never know the pull on your life or on my next door neighbor’s or even on my best friend’s lives. I will never know the pull on anyone else’s life except my own. Of course, you will never know the pull on my life or Dee’s life, or Lydia’s life or Deb’s life or…. I hear what you are trying to say. But you do know what I do know? When someone is trying to PUT more pull on another person’s life through abuse. And the words that that man is saying are abusive. (If you’re not giving 10% tithe or your gross to this church- stay home or go play golf? Abusive.) I don’t care what kind of “pull” this man has on his life. He has no right to say such things, especially as he stands in the pulpit on a Sunday morning. Again, it is abuse and I will stand on the highest mountains and scream at the top of my lungs if it will set just one prisoner free.

Keep up the good work, Dee and Deb.

You also wrote, “But I am a follower of Christ and there is nothing Godly about this discussion.”

So let’s see YOU get to decide whether God is in this, but we don’t get to do the same. Hmmm, you live elsewhere and don’t know Ed so according to your logic you have no right to say that what he is doing is sin and should be called on it in a public forum BUT you also live elsewhere from me and don’t know me but it IS ok for you to do that to me. Your logic is illogical.

Heather, you also said, “It’s a shame that you think you can prosper but pastors are supposed to suffer and be without.”

Oh, my my my my. So much ability you have to know our minds! (I’d say you should consider taking your act on the road but it is just too faulty.) Look Heather, once again, who said that I or anyone else here says it’s OK to prosper? I don’t know who here believes that and who here doesn’t. It’s never been a discussion that i have read. Please, if i am mistaken and everyone who had previously commented on Ed’s abuse also stated that it was OK for them to prosper but not for a minister to prosper, then please, bring me back to that discussion and I’ll go take another look. Of course, even if I did/didn’t think it was OK for “us” to prosper, how do you know which of the “us”es are pastors and which are not? Here, let me help you to have a bit more understanding. I am NOT a pastor. Both of my sisters are married to pastors and every man who married into my family is at least a Seminarian. (We’re lousy with ’em in my family. Try playing charades when the thing you’re trying to make people guess is a super long theology book title- exhausting.) Heck, when Mom and Dad got married Dad was enrolled at Princeton’s Theological Seminary. So it’s kinda ridiculous/silly of you to assume that because I don’t like a man abusing people in the name of God, that somehow I would be against the members of my own family prospering. (Though between you and me I have always prayed that I be the one daughter who is NOT a pastor’s wife. And no, in spite of your declaration of my heart, it is NOT because I am against a pastor’s family prospering- more so because I would probably get my husband’s butt tossed from any church because I don’t cowtow to the company line all that well. ‘Course, now I am dating a man who considers politics from time to time and I’ve had to warn him that if he marries me, his career would be shot through as I’d be busy taking on corruption and evil every time I encountered it. Pray for him if you think about it.)

You also said, “I understand that excess is no good for anyone but how dare you think you should decide.”

Heather, again, please recognize that this man is putting a yoke on his people. Come on, if i am walking down the street and I see a man raping a woman, my eyes will not be deceiving me. I won’t just walk on and say to myself, “Well, maybe I’m misunderstanding something.” No, there are certain things that are clear to me. I will stop and beat the man until he is off of her and the cops have arrested him. (Trust me, I don’t live in the greatest of places and I have stood up to bullies in my neighborhood. It is scary, but I coulnd’t live with myself if I didn’t. I’m horrible at standing up for myself, but couldn’t live with myself if I didn’t stand up for someone else.)

Heather you also said, “I’m fully aware that this will probably not be received but I can’t help but stand for what’s right.”

You know what, Heather, I totally respect your heart in this. You genuinely believe that what you are saying is right. (I could have done without all the faulty logic and all.) But I love that you are standing up for what you think is right. Loads of respect for that. So thank you. Genuinely. And I wouldn’t want you to stop doing that for one cotton picking second. If the Holy Spirit is leading you, then I want you to obey every time. If it is any comfort, your words have challenged me. They have made me think and reflect. That is a good thing.

We may not agree with each other, but I am glad you did what you thought was right. Again, keep it up, my sister. Keep it up. Who knows what God may do through and because of you, both here and elsewhere in your life, world and realm of influence. Thank you for bringing what I am sure was not an easy word to bring.

Finally you wrote, “Leave the man alone and let God take care it. If you don’t like Ed, don’t listen to him but no one needs you to save the rest of us. You are not the Holy Spirit.”

Once again, if we believe we are following the Holy Spirit, we need to act, we need to speak, we need to write. You are correct in saying we are not the Holy Spirit. (Trust me, I’ve tried enough in the lives on my children- boy what an idiot I can be sometimes.) I don’t listen to Ed. I don’t worry too much about Ed. Seems like Ed is spending enough time worrying about Ed for me to bother. But I will NOT stop speaking out about abusers. You see, I myself was abused. You may not have been. I truly hope you never were. But from my side of things, I NEEDED someone to come and speak truth. To tell me that it wasn’t only me that saw things the way I did. I and others like me NEED to hear the voices of others calling out and pointing us to the way they saw things. To give me a different perspective than the one I was immersed in.

I was lucky, because in spite of almost every voice I heard telling me that I should stay with my abusive, cheating husband (and it was almost every voice in my life) there were one or two human voices that said essentially, “This is wrong. Get out.” I needed those voicese. Heck, I needed a chorus of voices. And I would have killed for a whole cacophany trying their best to convince me that the things I have tolerated in my life, (ALL in the name of God) were WRONG.

So you can say all you want that we should leave Ed alone. But it isn’t Ed we are here for. It is the people he is abusing, misleading and lying to.

Tell us we’re wrong all you want.

But it’s God I have to answer to some day and obeying His Spirit who lives in me that is leading me and whom I have to give answer to.

I know it may be hard to believe this, but God bless you and keep up harrassing us (that wasn’t meant sarcastically, I swear- I am not about to say that God isn’t telling you to speak these things to us- maybe you are our balancer and if God is leading, seriously, PLEASE obey Him and keep it up). I love your heart that wants to do right and help others to do so, too. God bless your day today.

Stunned

Stunned said:
“So you can say all you want that we should leave Ed alone. But it isn’t Ed we are here for. It is the people he is abusing, misleading and lying to.”

Yes, this is the primary reason why The Wartburg Watch exists — for the FLOCK, not the shepherds.

I just heard David Jeremiah on the radio talking about the law of sowing and reaping, which I wholeheartedly believe. If Christian leaders are abusive, then it’s just a matter of time before this Biblical law will take effect. Perhaps that’s why the congregation at Fellowship Church is shrinking.

Stunned,

It was at least four or five years ago (I’m losing track of time) that Dee first mentioned the idea of co-writing a “faith watch” blog with me. I was somewhat reluctant because honestly I didn’t think there was that much to write about with regard to spiritual matters. Boy, was I wrong!!! It has been almost two years since we started TWW, and there’s way too much to cover in Christendom.

Heather,

I appreciate your taking the time to express your thoughts in this forum. Even though you disagree with our criticism of certain Christian leaders, rest assured we will NOT delete your comments as I have witnessed Josh Harris doing on several occasions (BTW, I rarely read Josh’s blog, which makes the matter even worse).

I am grateful that you have not experienced spiritual abuse, as some of our readers have. Would you join us in praying for those who have been hurt by those who are supposed to be protecting them?

Heather,

I frequent the SGM Survivors website, although I rarely comment since I have never belonged to a church affiliated with Sovereign Grace Ministries.
Here’s a comment I just read there.

http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=2042#comment-30648

“Stunned in Wyoming

January 26th, 2011 at 11:26 am

This is my first time on this website. Hello.
I am checking it out because my daughter attends a SGM church in Colorado and has recently decided to practice “Christian Separation” from me and the whole family. I am trying hard to understand what I have done to deserve this treatment from her. Can anyone give a website or link that could explain this churches teaching ideas to me. Also, how does a parent guide someone out of this mess? Thank you.”

There are so many hurting people out there who are being victimized either directly or indirectly by abusive ministries. We have spent a considerable amount of time focusing on SGM, and we hope that the information we have provided will be beneficial to our readers. I hope this parent in Wyoming will one day have her relationship restored with her daughter. These are the kinds of individuals we are trying to help.

Heather (still love your name, btw),

You asked, “Do you believe that someone can be hurt and then take their pain out on others for comfort?”

I definitely think that someone can be hurt and then take their pain out on others. I’m not really clear how such a thing could ever bring any real comfort but that’s how I am made. It would give me no comfort whatsoever. However, knowing I am not alone in what I have suffered or knowing that I was not crazy brings GREAT comfort. As does expressing my pain, just like David did in the Psalms. There is great healing that can be found in writing and discussing the abuse done to one whether it be at the hands of a man or a church or a government.

I’m sorry you don’t feel the love. Kinda hurts to tell you the truth. But I’m not going to stop giving it. I’ve had too many people write to me in tears telling me how I’ve given words to their pain for the first time. I’ve also had the spirit of God urge me on. Yes, it would be more comfortable for me to walk away and do a million other things. (Eat ice cream comes to mind.) But I can’t because God is pressing on me to keep writing. (Man, it stinking hurts! I want to avoid it so badly, but He has started a work and I must obey.)

So you can come on here all you want and tell me you don’t feel the love. Honestly, I wouldn’t have been able to detect it myself back when my life was good, when my family was whole and my parents loved me and things hadn’t hit the fan. I didn’t understand the crabby Shirley McLaine types in Steel Magnolia’s. I thought they were just miserable old ladies. Now I am that miserable old lady 😉 and I totally get her love for her friends and the role she played. I never used to understand her and now I am her and I love being her.

You see, I used to be the person who came upon abused and hurting people and told them how they were wrong for expressing themselves the way they were. (Oh, my enormous arrogance and shame!) I remember sitting in a youth group meeting pontificating about divorce and how wrong it was, all the while not knowing that the very girl who was sitting beside me just found out that her father had walked out on her family. (And this was a friend, no less!) How I wish I could go back and hold her. Cry with her. Tell her God has a hope and a future for her. But no, instead I talked about the need for sexual purity (why didn’t somebody shoot me?!) when this very same girl was being raped by our assistant pastor. And it went on for years. (Both my inexperience in the pain of this world and the girl getting raped over and over and over again.) And yes, even now I cringe saying that God had a good plan for her life when her life is now in freaking ruins. (The mental illness she suffers has not allowed her to support herself. She is middle aged, alone, ill and has even lost her own child. I can’t promise her any “flowery” future. Only sit with her and tell her God loves her. And sit behind her in court when her rapist from her childhood is finally sentenced. But other than that, I can do little to get her life back.)

Oh, how grateful I am that God has made me this cranky old woman! How I wouldn’t trade back and become who I used to be for all the money in this world. You see, you may not be able to see the love, Heather, but the hurting feel it. They know it. And after all, that’s who I am here for. And you Heather, as well intentioned as you are (and I truly believe you are), are actually causing some harm and pain here. Not the pain of correction but the pain caused by an ignorant but well intentioned Christian.

(Side thought- Funny how you’re the “good” one in your eyes, yet I am the one who encouraged you to follow God’s call on your life, whether I agreed with it or not. And I’m the one that is bad in your eyes, yet you are the one who is sitting here telling me that I am not loving and am only hurting people yet you give no respect or encouragement to me to follow the Holy Spirit….. hmmmm, I think I’ll take being the “bad” one in that case.)

You said, ” I don’t feel like you are writing to help others but get your own frustrations out and in print.”

You have no idea the kind of pain your accusations bring me. I also think you probably don’t care.

You also said, ” I feel for the children of these people who read what others say about their fathers.”

Have you ever had your father written about in such terms? I have. And not just on blogs, but in some of the biggest newspapers in the nation. And on one of the biggest newstations in the nation. I have heard his name and seen it in print. And it was ugly what they said. Ugly with a big capital U. And you know what?

Some of what they were saying was true. (The parts that weren’t true really didn’t hurt. What did I care about the lies?) But the parts that they said that were true? Those parts were actually healing and good to hear. It was actually a comfort. Because you see, kids aren’t dumb. They know the truth. They and their mothers or others can try to cover it up, but they know somewhere in their souls that there is truth here. And to have adults ignore it, not address it, actually does the children great harm. No matter how much they look up to their father and love them. As I loved my father greatly.

I don’t know if you have ever experienced anything like this or not. I can only surmise that you haven’t because if you had, at least in my way of thinking, you would be responding differently. I think you would have then gained the wisdom to see how helpful this is to the children. So as much as your world is different than what the world is of the children whose parents end up in print and I know you learned some very important playground lessons …not mocking, I truly believe you are lovely person who took very important lessons to heart when you were young and I like that about you. I did the same thing. But then God took me through life and had to work very hard to teach me that there are other people out there who are actually evil and would actually do what you and I would never dream of doing. They would actually purposely hurt somebody. And I can only guess that you would never do that to anyone on purpose. (Please forgive me if I am wrong about you on this. Honestly, I know I could be way off here.)

But I think you see those of us who have fought the hard fight and continue to fight the hard fight, you see the blood on our hands and the sweat on our brow, and you confuse us for the dirty people who you’ve seen in your life. While others (like the psycopaths and the soicopaths and the narcisists and the abusers) clean themselves up and look nice.

But God has stripped me of any desire to look nice with these bullies. I didn’t want to “look dirty”. Trust me, I used to be just like you. And I would have been saying the same things you say. But so far, God has taken that away from me and made me stare into the harsh light of other people’s realities, of their pain. It is ugly. And they need someone to help them out of the pit of hell they are often in.

You can sit here and throw rocks all you want, but I and others are not about to stop going back into the pit and dragging out survivors. I don’t blame you for feeling sick to your stomach. It’s pretty gruesome work. I feel sick to my stomach over it most days, too.

But I’m not going to stop getting my hands dirty just to avoid having you and other people throw rocks at me. So keep ’em coming. Satan has tried worse with me and the others here.

PS. I never knew Benny Hinn was divorced. I couldn’t help but see the irony that you brought this piece of unnecessary and unrelated gossip into this conversation. Actually, for that matter, I had never seen this entire post until you bumped it to the forefront by commenting here. If you’re feeling sick, I have a feeling maybe God isn’t calling you here for this season of your life. I can only hope you’ll never need this site or any other site like it in the future.

Deb, thank you. Your kindness to me at this moment has given this heart courage. (Though I am oh so weary to day! I hate to be dramatic but have just spent too much of the day in tears.) Thank you for that kindness and taking the time to encourage.

Stunned,

Ditto on what Dee said. You are a gift to TWW! I hope we can meet someday. I’d love to know you personally.

Keeping you in my prayers as you minister to others.

Stunned-

I always enjoy your posts and your heart….I think my own survivor story is similar. I was a know it all for God until I got blindsided by one of God’s chosen leaders.

The alienation you feel, all of the sudden, gives you new eyes, and you remember all those hurting souls you avoided, because their pain seemed too messy, or it didn’t compute that your wonderful leaders could have done some thing as awful as this person claims. Surely the problem is them, not your wonderful leaders fault…..

And then it happens to you, and you are on the other end of the blank stares, the dismissive and annoyed attitudes, the folks who outright tell you that you must be mistaken or lying,…..and then you get it. You get down on your knees and cry like an animal until your gut hurts and you can hear your own brainwaves looking for a way to compute all the pain you feel.

You feel like there is a big weight hanging around your neck and a tattoo on your face that tells the world that you are worthless, a fool, and worthy of being forgotten. You dread going out in public and bumping into an old friend, only to have to go through your pleadings and story, only to be scolded or ignored again….the shame washes over you and even laughing can hurt with sorrow.

Talking to someone who understands, and believes you is something so rare and precious….to realize you are not crazy or alone, is a lifesaver. It literally can bring you back into focus and begin to live and love again.

That is why I will never stop talking about what happened, so that others will know they are not crazy, and that their is life after abuse. An even better one then the life and friends they have lost…..it will still hurt, but the hurt will begin to fade as new life begins……..

Stunned,

It would be great to meet you, too! A blogging buddy who was passing through town last Monday treated Dee and me to lunch. It was terrific! Who knew we’d develop friendships far and wide through the internet…

Actually, Dee moved from Texas to North Carolina (God’s country – couldn’t resist!) around ten years ago. We became friends soon after she arrived. Little did I know where our friendship would lead. As I think back, the internet was becoming a reality when we first met. Back then, if someone used the word “blogging” I would have responded: “What’s that?”

So glad you’re here at TWW!

Just fyi, Stunned and I have, ahem, shared experiences, lost touch with one another, and were able to cultivate a friendship again because we met on the blogs and I figured out who she was.

And shocked I was.

Of all people to be dis-membered, she was the very last person I would imagine. This woman had such a sweet servant-heart toward the church and all the people.

She is a beautiful woman inside and out and what was said by her and doubtful are so true.

I would rather be beaten than shunned.

No one should ever believe anything DB says about me. In all honesty, I pay her to say nice things, so it should all be ignored.

Deb, I don’t know if I’d be able to put together my story in one lump. It probably makes me sound like a baby, but it’s a bit painful to think about sitting down and getting it all out into one cohesive pile. Can I take a raincheck and maybe some day send it to you guys?

“It probably makes me sound like a baby, but it’s a bit painful to think about sitting down and getting it all out into one cohesive pile. ”

This is why most people never share their stories. And because the way things were handled were so deceptive it is hard to give ironclad facts. It becomes an he said/he said situation in many cases. Hard to prove. Most things that happen are about deceit: They say one thing in public but another in private. How does one prove that? Especially when they are surrounded by sychophants who agree with everything they say?

Believe me, when folks finally wake up to what is going on they have already been marginalized. It is another cult tactic.

They don’t show up with horns and pitchforks. They carry out their evil looking like angels of light. And the person who has been deceived or wronged can look like a baby when they try to explain it to others.

People forget how clever Satan is.

Lydia said, “And because the way things were handled were so deceptive it is hard to give ironclad facts. It becomes an he said/he said situation in many cases. Hard to prove. Most things that happen are about deceit: They say one thing in public but another in private”

And all it takes is for them to twist one little word and the whole truth is gone and deception has come flooding in.

DB, you are in my prayers as you go through this process. Not easy at all.

Hugs.
Stunned

DB,

I’m keeping you in my prayers as you document what occurred at your former church with the Ezzo debacle. Thanks for you willingness to help others through your painful experience.