Our post “UNDER CEEJ – Why the Impersonation of C.J. Mahaney is NO LAUGHING MATTER” drew some interesting comments.  An SGM loyalist who goes by the moniker “I think you exaggerate…” challenged my claims against SGM.  I have decided to respond to his/her questions. 

 

QUESTION #1:

 

“I really think you have greatly exaggerated these claims against SGM. You may have researched them for two years…but have you attended one? Have you listened to sermons from their pastors online? Have you been to a small group setting?”

 

Answer:  So glad you asked…  Dee and I attended a Sovereign Grace church together on January 25, 2009, and we heard C.J. Mahaney deliver one of his often repeated messages – “Cravings and Conflicts” — taken from James 1:2-4. Just Google it and see what I mean.  I had seen C.J. on YouTube prior to attending the “meeting”, so I was already familiar with his mannerisms and preaching style.  In addition, I have heard quite a few of his messages online.

 

C.J. began by thanking the pastor for getting tickets to the Duke-Maryland basketball game so that he, his son, and his son-in-law could attend.  The game was played on Duke’s home court.  Of course, C.J. is a HUGE Maryland supporter.  He spent AT LEAST 15 minutes (maybe more) explaining in great detail how Duke cleaned Maryland’s clock.  Sadly, it wasn’t even a contest.  For sports enthusiasts, here are the stats on Duke's 85-44 win.      

 

As as aside, I'm proud of my alma mater for winning the 2010 NCAA basketball championship. 

 

C.J. made one comment to the congregation that I don’t believe I will ever forget.  He referenced his wife Carolyn and how many years they have been married.  Then he said something like:  “Our marriage is really s-i-z-z-l-i-n-g!”  Wow!  That’s great to hear…

 

On September 25, 2009, exactly eight months after I heard C.J. Mahaney speak in person, he delivered a message called “Expository Faithfulness” at the first 9 Marks Conference ever held at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.  According to the SEBTS website, “Mahaney challenges us to be faithful, consistent expositors of the Word of God.”  You can watch it here:  

 

 

I have spent years listening to sound expository preaching from Bible scholars (much of it in person), and from my perspective C.J.’s expository preaching is extremely lacking.  I was shocked that Mark Dever had him come and speak on this topic at the 9 Marks Conference.  Sorry folks, but when you presume to teach others on “expository faithfulness”, you’d better be an expert! 

 

In addition to the numerous Cravings and Conflicts messages C.J. has delivered at various SGM churches, he even wrote about his sinful cravings on Joshua Harris' blog.

  

http://www.joshharris.com/2007/08/cravings_and_conflicts.php

 

Apparently, C.J. got angry at Carolyn when she challenged him.  Here’s how he describes what happened:

“The truth that "cravings underlie conflicts" was vividly displayed in my own life, when I arrived home one evening from work. My family was gathering for dinner, and hugs and kisses and "I love yous" were given all around. Carolyn walked by me on her way to the table with some food and kindly mentioned in passing that I had failed to tell her about a calendar commitment I made for both of us.”

 

C.J. then explains how his “cravings” got the best of him.

“My arrogance was pronounced and my anger was escalating; but Carolyn chose to serve and not sin. In my prideful state, that was simply unacceptable. So to my shame, I made several remarks intended to provoke her to join my sinful party. I wanted her to have something to confess as well. But Carolyn wasn't playing my game, and we ended the conversation in disagreement.

Did I then go to another room, fall to my knees, open my Bible to James 4, and repent? No, I went to our bedroom, sat down, opened my new Sports Illustrated, and dove in. But I wasn't reading the articles. I was imagining my wife coming into the room and saying, ‘Love, you really are most incredible husband in all of world history. How could I have possibly criticized you in any way? Will you please forgive me?’”

To read the entire account, you’ll have to click on the above link. I find it fascinating that Carolyn’s spiritual maturity seemed to exceed that of her shepherd husband (at least in this snapshot of their lives). What a great reminder to me that we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

 

QUESTION #2:

Has it occurred to you that some of these men like John MacArthur or John Piper actually like CJ, and have been in SGM churches and/or conferences many times and have not seen the claims you have made?

Answer:  Duh… Why didn’t that occur to me?  Of course they like C.J.  He butters them up and helps promotes their agenda.  I highly doubt that John MacArthur has ever been in an SGM church.  I do know that John Piper attended a Celebration some years ago and publicly criticized C.J. for not being more missions minded.

When Dee and I visited a Sovereign Grace church, we were absolutely stunned as we walked in the front door!  The focal point in the church lobby was an expansive “bookstore” equipped with a cash register to ring up the purchases.  Guess whose books were on the shelves?  C.J. Mahaney, Joshua Harris, Carolyn Mahaney, Mark Dever, Al Mohler, John Piper, John MacArthur, etc.  No wonder they like C.J.  He highly promotes them and their books (as well as their conferences)!  Here’s the bottom line (pun intended), C.J. is not only a pastor/athlete but a salesman!

Addition 6/13/10 – Here's a video that I believe demonstsrates very clearly the points I made in  response to Question #2.  C.J.'s Scorecard 

Thanks, Radiance, for providing the link.

 

For those of you who did not read the comment posted by “I think you exaggerate”, here’s a good portion of it:

“I do remember the very first Sunday I was there someone asked me if I homeschooled my kids. I said no, they were in public school. I did notice a ton of people homeschooled their kids and had very large families. I do honestly feel that lots of kids were almost a trophy of some sort in that church…I didn’t like that at all. There were at least two families in my small group that homeschooled their kids and the mothers were completely unqualified to do so and some of the kids were way behind in their schooling. That really did bother me. (But I’ve seen this in many other churches I’ve been in).

The pastor of this church was the authority on child rearing in SGM (then PDI). I did really feel a lot of his teaching was whacky. He was teaching people to have their kids come to their parents and tell their wrong doing and ASK for punishment. I thought that was really strange. But I could take or leave child rearing advice…I think most people do. Never felt the pressure to do that. I noticed our small group leaders doing that with their kids and it drove me nuts. We’d be sitting in a small group, their young son would come and say “Daddy, I hit my sister” and then the father would go spank him.

Eventually this pastor, the child rearing “expert”, had a daughter run away and marry an Army guy. Yep, pretty embarrassing. Except for the child rearing stuff, I really loved this guy. He was removed which I was not happy about. I didn’t see the moral failure on his daughter’s part (she was 17 I think?) as his failure. But earlier that year he had boasted from the pulpit that if one of his kids ever went astray he would step down as pastor. It was definitely put forth by SGM leadership that he was demoted for pride, not for his daughter’s sin. In truth it was probably both. She did stand before the congregation and apologize…I think the poor kid was mortified that she had cost her father his job and well over a thousand people the pastor they loved. It was actually a very touching moment and the church really hurt for her. She was well loved.

After this, I do remember Steve Shank or someone coming and apologizing to the church for the legalism that had crept in regarding child rearing. They said no SGM (then PDI) church should put pressure on people to homeschool and that people shouldn’t identify a good Christian as someone who homeschools or not. They were trying to correct this YEARS ago. Because we were pastorless for awhile, we constantly had people like Steve Shank, or Joshua Harris, or CJ Mahaney come. They were all very gifted speakers and I felt their sermons were very helpful. They spoke a lot on grace.

I grew up in an independent fundamental church and had seen a lot of abuse by authoritarian pastors who weren’t answerable to anyone. I felt that having a chain of accountability was a good thing. I certainly wasn’t used to the concept of having your pastor chosen for you. I certainly wasn’t privvy to the intimate workings of the church. I am not saying that any of the things you mention never happened. I don’t know. Again, I liked the teaching and worship so much that the way things were structured didn’t bother me or strike me as odd.

As far as not leaving an SGM church goes….I definitely remember hearing from the pulpit that if you really had to move, you should move near another SGM church. I never felt for one second that this was controlling or cult like. It was because the leaders really felt that their churches were great and that Reformed theology was the best point of view. I moved away and my SGM friends treated me totally normal and said they’d miss me. Nothing out of the ordinary. Ended up in a PCA church because the teaching was similar.

I have since only visited some SGM churches. One visit was pretty recent. It seemed a lot less charismatic than it was–almost boring.

I really feel for the most part that SGM is just fine…not perfect and alot of stuff has been blown out of proportion on this blog. Chances are people would have just as many negative things to say about the denomination the writers of this blog attend.

I can clearly remember being told in small group that at one time the church endorsed shepherding but that was bad and they were no longer doing that.

We were encouraged to buy PDI literature and music…but again, this is because they really believed that the stuff was helpful. They encouraged us probably even more to read Jerry Bridges, John Piper, RC Sproul, etc.

I really think the writers of this blog aren’t being fair to SGM.”

 

So "Exaggerate", who admittedly is now a member of a PCA church, has only "visited" some SGM churches since leaving PDI (aka SGM).  How in the world would (s)he know what really going on in Sovereign Grace Ministries?  

 

Here's my sincere question for you…  

 

After reading the personal testimony of "I think you exaggerate", do you believe I exaggerated about SGM in the previous post?