http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/02/24/the-danger-of-personality-cults-among-the-new-calvinists/

And the other side of the ailse with the T4G followers. The reformed wing is catching up with the above in conferences, books, speaking gigs, money, etc. And is even worse when it comes to cult of personality.

These “wants” are hard to pick up on if one is not in the inner circle or if one does not know what to look for.

Thanks for your thoughts. Do you know how many pastors and seminary students go to conferences to learn how to be like Ed Young or Mac Brunson? These guys are the current idols and there are many who wish to be like them.

Its funny you mentioned the coffee bar thing. I don’t know where you live, but this is becoming all the rage here in NC and in other parts of the country. I am fixing to do a series on a church in the middle of the state where controversy abounds. They decided to tear up the foyer in order to put in a coffee bar. This is small town. I am smiling as i look at my nice metal coffee travel mug that was given to me by the Summit Church for visiting. They had great coffee.

I shall be writing a story about an African church that was promised $50,000 by an American church so that they could build a small church. Well the American church reneged. Why? They had to spend around a million dollars changing their building so that they could have…..you guessed it-a coffee bar.

Maybe the Cooperative churches aren’t into this nonsense. If so, I applaud them. Thanks for your input. I am glad you are commenting. There are many Cooperative churches who are not as liberal as many SBCers think. They just don’t like the craziness of the SBC.

I love disagreement. Really. A great argument between confessing Christians who know how to major on the majors is most illuminating. In fact, it is the kind of discourse that is lacking in many of the situations that we cover.

I belong to a church in which we disagree over many secondary issues. Don’t you find it interesting to see how folks come to their conclusions? We have never, once, deleted a comment due to disagreement. We have deleted a couple of inappropriate one. A Mark Driscoll fan called us lesbians in a most crude way and someone used an inappropriate name-long story.

Also, disagreements are the lifeblood of a blog.It is like iron that sharpens iron. I can assure you that we think and pray about the responses we get. We are not perfect but we do this out of passion and years of serving in churches.

We also think it is interesting to have a couple of women commenting for a change. Many Christian blogs are dominated by men, which is understandable. But we are two Christian women with advanced degrees who have lived a traditional life at home, raising our children. We think men and women occasionally need to hear from some women who care.

Calvinista is term we made up to distinguish between Calvinists and those whose mission it is to search and destroy those who disagree with them. I have many good friends who are strong Calvinists and they would tell you that we have a great relationship.

I struggled to find a term for those who have done great damage to the body of Christ in the name of Calvin. CJ Mahaney is one of those. If you have not followed the number of abuse claims against his ministry, you need to educate yourself. Start by going to sgmsurvivors.com So, I shall stick with this term for those who go beyond the pale.

We did not invent the term Baptist Mafia. Doug Pittman did. I am not sure you have heard his full story. But having a fire set in one’s backyard, receiving threatening emails, letters, etc for exposing pornography on a pastor’s computer (the real Mafia was in the porno business as well) is quite an experience. In some circles, this stuff happens.

So, just like all Italians are not Mafioso, not all Baptists are Baptist Mafia. It is reserved for those who are involved in doing great harm to others. Please read our series on Pray’s MIlls Baptist Church.If it doesn’t curl your hair you need a vacation.

We did a series on the Baptist Mafia to explain why Doug Pittman uses the term. He was the one who explained it to us in most descriptive terms. I am of the opinion that Baptist leadership needs to hear this pain in all of its depth. They need to understand how abuse of this sort affects their people. They can handle it and they must deal with it. They are not, plain and simple.

I can assure you that Doug and others like him actually followed Matthew 18 but were abused by those they sought to trust

Finally, on the Matthew 18 deal. Once again I refer you to the spiritual abuse sites. This particular verse is used to slam honest questions. I had it used in an inappropriate way regarding a pedophile situation at a former church. Please read The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse to see the ways this passage has been misused.

I am sure that you elders represent a clear picture of the congregation. I bet they challenge you and keep you on the straight and narrow. However, let me tell you what a former pastor said to me when we asked about his elders. he said that they only disagreed with him twice in 18 years!! He also said that they exist to serve his vision, period, end of sentence. So, you might understand if I view some churches with a jaundiced eye.

In a healthy, well-balanced church it can be used effectively. In fact, I saw a situation resolved by the appropriate application of this verse along with the entire passage in a church that had a mature pastor and elders with backbones.

As for motives, one cannot determine for sure what is in a person’s heart. However, as a mystery buff, I know that motives go a long way in figuring out the answer. I have a pastor who says that on his “best days” his “motives are mixed.”

One thing we try to do is to distinguish between speculation and knowledge. You will find that we call the people involved, rarely receiving calls back. We have seen far too many church conflicts that have destroyed the faith and confidence of the priesthood. And we are doing our best to expose this stuff.

Finally, thank you for caring enough to respond and to state you POV. Blessings

I guess I don’t put too much value in generalizations. In this instance, I think your generalizations present a over-exaggerrated, almost doomsday picture.

You wrote, “The American church places far more values on coffee bars in churches than they do in funding missions.”

That’s an extreme statement, no doubt. In my most recent search for a new church home about 18 months ago, my wife and I visited approximately 10 different Baptist churches and 3 non-Baptist churches. Not one had a coffee bar! In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever been to a church with a coffee bar. I’ve visited a few megachurches along the way in places like Atlanta and Dallas. Maybe they had a coffee bar, who knows. As far as the SBC goes, I’m willing to wager that the overwhelming majority of Southern Baptists attend churches that look a bit different than the flashy, hip super-megachurches.

The megachurch guys may swallow up all the media attention but I don’t think the Mac Brunsons and Ed Youngs are representative of the “American church.”

As an aside, I’m not an evangelical, share very little in common with Southern Baptists in terms of theology and politics. SBCers would consider my church very liberal as we are affiliated with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship and the Alliance of Baptists. I just have many friends and family members who are still Southern Baptists and who attend churches that share little in common with the Prestonwoods of the SBC universe and have pastors who don’t live lavish lifestyles and who are servants rather than pulpit-bulldawgs.

You wrote, “The American church places far more values on coffee bars in churches than they do in funding missions.”

That’s an extreme statement, no doubt. In my most recent search for a new church home about 18 months ago, my wife and I visited approximately 10 different Baptist churches and 3 non-Baptist churches. Not one had a coffee bar! In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever been to a church with a coffee bar. I’ve visited a few megachurches along the way in places like Atlanta and Dallas. Maybe they had a coffee bar, who knows. As far as the SBC goes, I’m willing to wager that the overwhelming majority of Southern Baptists attend churches that look a bit different than the flashy, hip super-megachurches.

The megachurch guys may swallow up all the media attention but I don’t think the Mac Brunsons and Ed Youngs are representative of the “American church.”

As an aside, I’m not an evangelical, share very little in common with Southern Baptists in terms of theology and politics. SBCers would consider my church very liberal as we are affiliated with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship and the Alliance of Baptists. I just have many friends and family members who are still Southern Baptists and who attend churches that share little in common with the Prestonwoods of the SBC universe and have pastors who don’t live lavish lifestyles and who are servants rather than pulpit-bulldawgs.

Firstly, thank you for reading what we say so carefully.

Yes, there was hyperbole involved.I am playing of Lewis point of view regarding bureaucracy.

Now, for the Baptist Mafia part. Context to our argument is key. Some of the new breed of hyper-authoritarian pastors tend to appear on the scene and dismantle decades old traditions within churches. Deacons boards are dissolved. New boards with the pastors’ own boys (no, I am not being sarcastic. In a former church, one pastor was upset when one of his underlings story was challenged and he said, “He’s one of my boys.”) are put in place and the entire structure of the church, including some of the people who have devoted years to a ministry, are dismissed out of hand. In this context, we are calling for sensitivity and kindness in dealing with these issues.

I highly recommend you read our post on the grandmother who was perp walked out of a church service. Grannie had the temerity to ask what happened to the committee of deacons that had been in her church for years. Grannie, for her question, was cuffed and walked out of her church. Here is the link: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/04/27/71-year-old-grandma-perp-walked-out-of-church-say-it-aint-so/

Some committees work very well but sometimes committees exist for their own sake. God is interested in the process by which we follow His commands. It is not the end product that is of real value. It is how we treat each other as we get there.

Also, I will make generalizations. The American church places far more value on coffee bars in churches than they do in funding missions.And most churches that I have seen with fancy cars and well-dressed people tend to be “big hat, no cattle.” I think you will find that the more people emphasize the superficial, the less they give percentage wise-with rare exceptions.

The more a pastor is paid and the more he lives a lavish lifestyle the more suspect his church and what that church stands for-and by this I am referring to FBC Jax, FBC Dallas, etc. Oh, I am sure that there are authentic Christians hidden in these churches but they are swallowed up by the guys with the agendas.

Cliff, read the new book by Michael Spencer-Mere Churchianity. It might challenge some of your assumptions.