Loved the give and take.

You are right! That is where we should focus our efforts. If we can get those in the pew to think beyond cliches, we might actually tranform the church!

Warn the sheep. If you love them, that is. Encourage them to test everything and be Bereans. Encourage them to seek transparency in a church. Real ekklesia do not have so much secrecy and humans who lord it over.

Thanks for clarifying. I have heard so many say they want to be like Jesus, but when it comes to being like the Jesus who angrily called the leaders hypocrites and snakes, they wrongly identify that as more closely related to Satan. My desire is to see the church correct their wrong understanding of who Jesus is.

I also take to heart your exhortation that we must not allow our hearts to darken in our exposure of evil and to not allow ourselves the luxury of hating, getting revenge, wishing harm, or being bitter. We must look past our hurt and desire that they too come to repentance and restoration.

“the real evil is the lack of action taken by those who sit idly by while whole congregations fall under the spell of deceitful men. They refuse to accept the intrinsic value and authority they have as believers to hold accountable those in authority, who sin. Because they don’t want to get involved or question, “supposed,” authority, innocent people suffer.”

The command to submit to church authority is NEVER a command to allow those in church authority to do evil. I think of the disciples who were commanded not to speak the name of Christ. They said they had to obey God before men. That is always he case.

Jim

Thanks for the reply. Before I respond I will note that I have found when reading posts in internet forums it is very easy to read into another’s words what is not there. So I will preface my response with a restatement of what I have said in a few other posts for clarity:

1) I agree with those who are exposing the evil that is found ‘at the top’. I do not think that exposing that evil is in any way wrong, indeed, I believe it is correct and good.

2) I understand that when one challenges evil, things will not stay nice and comfy. The evildoers will, in fact, likely respond harshly, and indeed, as with the GBC ‘resolution’ against blogging and the attacks Doug P has received both verbal and otherwise, the issues dee has dealt with, and even to a lesser extent the backlash I have had do deal with as relates to old earth/young earth issues, the backlash has been harsh.

So – I can assure you there is no intended insinuation in any of my posts that feeling anger or being tempted to wish for revenge is itself evil per se. We all deal with temptation, and it is how we respond to the temptation that defines us, not the fact we have it.

I fully understand that when one is dealing with a harsh or difficult situation, one will say things that reflect how one feels as one works through that. And again, my comments do not in any way reflect any condemnation of those in that position. They are posted solely to encourage all involved to keep in mind that in Christ we can’t yield to those temptations and must seek the highest standard as our goal.

There is a very difficult balance which must be maintained between in righteousness confronting evil and at the same time maintaining a heart attitude that is conformed to the image of Christ. Scripture is full of seemingly contradictory paradigms – the trinity itself, free will vs. predestination, being meek and humble yet standing firm against evil.

The tendency I see almost across the board is to simplify, to take one side or the other, the be the lion against evil, or to passively allow anything and everything. Either is wrong. We are called to many things, and we have a responsibility to balance, as much as possible, those things. So if I rebuke a brother, it must be in compassion and love, not in judgment or hate. If I offer another compassion and understanding, it must not be coupled with the accommodation or excusing of sin.

So my comments are strictly in the context of accepting as correct and good the exposing of the evils that have been raised on this blog. And I ask you to try to see them in that context. There can be no excusing the rape and pillage, both literally and figuratively, of the congregations of the SBC. And if we lay down and do not speak against it, we also would be guilty of sin.

Likewise however, we are not excused from the words of Paul and Christ (the beattitudes) in that act. And so we can’t become evil to fight evil. And the temptation will be to do that. If Satan can’t stop us through fear and intimidation, then he will try to do it through other means, like internal corruption of one sort or another. No one is above the temptation to do evil, no matter how righteous their cause. And it would indeed be tragic if those with the courage to stand against these forces succumbed to another kind of evil in the process.

By the way – since I’ve been seen as ‘passive’ and somehow finding it ‘easy’ to act according to the scripture’s commands to turn the other cheek and love my enemies (it is NOT), I have decided to lose any unnecessary baggage that may be giving that impression. My name is Jim. Zeta was for fun – a neat joke based on the fact the brightest star in Orion’s belt is Zeta Orionis. But I am not trying to hide who I am beyond what is prudent in an internet forum. And I am not afraid for the folks reading this blog to know who “Orion’s Belt” is and that what I have written here are indeed my opinions.

Jim

1. “we can’t give in to the temptation to respond to evil with evil.”

2. “it would be tragic if in the process Satan was able to gain a foothold in you all.”

Zeta’s caution sounds to me more like subtle insinuation that exposure of these evils is evil itself. I reject that. Would Zeta have given the same warning to Jesus when He called the leaders of His day hypocrites, brood of vipers, white-washed tombs? Would she have thought He was on the borderline of succumbing to Satan’s temptations? In our, “treat everybody nice and don’t say anything mean to anyone,” generation, we allow creeps like these abusive pastors to get away with manipulation that no one will confront.

No, the real evil is the lack of action taken by those who sit idly by while whole congregations fall under the spell of deceitful men. They refuse to accept the intrinsic value and authority they have as believers to hold accountable those in authority, who sin. Because they don’t want to get involved or question, “supposed,” authority, innocent people suffer.

How about:

1. we can’t give in to the temptation to respond to evil by remaining silent about those evils.

2. it would be tragic if in the process Satan was able to gain a foothold, by making us afraid to confront leaders who do evil, so they continue to do evil and hurt even more people.

Thanks for the comments. My comments were not meant to condemn anyone, but to encourage and remind all that in Christ we can’t give in to the temptation to respond to evil with evil – even while working through the pain and hurt inflicted. When Christ said to turn the other cheek, I don’t think he had in mind that it would be an easy thing to do. So while I empathize greatly with the pain of those here who have been slammed about (after all, I have also been subject to rejection by these folks over various issues), I simply can’t accept it is ever ok to yield to the temptation to seek the destruction of those who wrong us – not that anyone posting here necessarily had that in mind.

Paul said “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head. Do no be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good”

Considering all the good work you and others like Doug are doing to expose the evils in SBC leadership, it would be tragic if in the process Satan was able to gain a foothold in you all. So it is in the spirit of encouraging the best, so that all will be able to be the best, so that Christ can be glorified, that my comment was made.

Jim

BTW – if you think my general nature is passive, well, then I will have to give glory to God for that impression. And I will also have to say you don’t really know me very well

A few years back, I was involved with some students from IV in Canada in an outreach to Muslims. They were so bold for the Gospel, it took me aback. They were BROKEN for these lost souls! They were NOTHING like the mega church college students I was used to being around who mainly had parties, sought emotional worship experiences and then lived like hellions.

As to the Holy Priesthood…this was drilled into my head from early childhood. My salvation and intimate relationship with Christ was to trump everything and everyone else. We were taught to seek the Kingdom… not to seek men who “represent the kingdom”. But then, in my childhood, the only real celebrity Christians were guys like Billy Graham! Now, one cannot swing a dead cat without hitting a celebrity Christian!

I got off track… lured to the exciting programs of man, of course, but I wonder if I would have stayed off track had this not been drilled into me at an early age? Early on, there was a distant gnawing in my gut that Christ was being trumped by men but I ignored it until I came face to face with consistent deception and evil in the Name of Christ that was perpetuated by and in these man made institutions. Such things are necessary to build large institutions.

This is what I learned: He disciplines those who belong to Him. If He never disciplines us, we should worry. Brokeness, in Christ, is the path to Holiness. And without Holiness, we will not see God. Very scary and while I might sound disgusted with the institution, my heart breaks over it. But, we are running out of time. People must be warned to get out and seek Christ alone.

Thanks for your excellent analysis! Could we use some of your information in a post soon? As you have clarified, the minimalization and/or elimination of the priesthood of the believer in the SBC is one of the key reasons for its decline.

FYI – My daughter (who is a rising college senior) will be spending the next five weeks in NYC as part of a Campus Crusade for Christ college outreach. She and thirty other young Christians from around the country are involved in a summer program where they will be sharing their faith on college campuses in the city. My daughter has a passion for seeking and saving the lost, and she is putting her faith into action. I find it ironic that she reports on Tuesday, June 15 – the same day the SBC Annual Meeting kicks off. Please keep her in your prayers.