Until last year, Dee and I were members of different Southern Baptist churches. Each of us spent almost a decade fully supporting the SBC. We were just “going with the flow” like so many of our brothers and sisters in Christ. During that time we were completely oblivious to the issues we discuss here at The Wartburg Watch. Then Almighty God got our attention…
For almost two years, we have been relentless in our pursuit of the truth. Beginning in the summer of 2008, I would often spend several hours a day conducting internet research on the issues we now discuss. When I began to learn about hyper-authoritarianism and pedophilia in the pastorate (among other alarming Christian trends), I felt hopeless and helpless to do anything about them. After all, I was just a woman in a patriarchial system known as the Southern Baptist Convention.
Fortunately, God blessed me with a wonderful man to whom I have now been married for 22 years. He was raised Southern Baptist (before the takeover), and is proud to identify himself as “egalitarian”. I have always loved and respected my husband, and we have a wonderful relationship that gets better with every passing year.
I would often share with my husband the issues Dee and I were discussing, and I would sometimes mention our blog idea – The Wartburg Watch. Finally, after months and months of talking about blogging, we finally did it! TWW was launched in March 2009. Suddenly, the feelings of helplessness and hopelessness that plagued me for a long time vanished when we published our first short article!
As the Georgia Baptist Convention has clearly demonstrated, there are outspoken critics of blogging. While I cannot defend all bloggers, I can promise our readers that Dee and I do our very best to document the information we discuss here at TWW. Of course, our opinions can sometimes be a bit edgy, but that’s what makes blogging so unique. Unfortunately for some, blogging is here to stay. There is simply no turning back, much to the GBC‘s disgust… I believe with all my heart that God is providentially using this new communication tool to bring about His will by shining His light in some dark places.
“As the Georgia Baptist Convention has clearly demonstrated, there are outspoken critics of blogging. While I cannot defend all bloggers, I can promise our readers that Dee and I do our very best to document the information we discuss here at TWW”
As some of us are well aware, you cannot “document” everything. The powers that be are very careful about any proof or evidence of their tactics. But, we SHOULD listen to people’s stories. Sometimes that is all you have to go on. And usually, after a while, more come out of the woodwork and one starts seeing a pattern of behavior.
The stories are important because most people are not believed when talking about a celebrity cult of personality person in leadership. They have spent years crafting their image and they are certainly not going to let some nobody pew sitter ruin that image.
They make a nobody, a somebody when they attack people like Doug who stood for his church.
As Doug told the Chairman of the Deacons while at Prays Mill after they did the unpardonable sin,
….you are going to wish you had of let this sleeping dog lay
Boy isn’t that the truth.
All you ministers better be careful with those whom you THINK you can bully, as they may – as Mike Everson loves to say –
“NAIL YOUR HIDE TO THE WALL”
Doug and others like Wartburg, Ministerswatch, FBC JAX, Stop Predators, Kauffman, etc., are nailing the “Baptist Boys” and others hides to the wall
I’m sorry,
This can’t be about revenge. If it is, it is wrong. We can’t hide sin, or be part of hiding sin, we can’t stand by and watch people do evil things without speaking out. But the goal here is righteousness by and for all, not getting back at the people who did evil. Until we stand before Christ, his redemption is open to all, including the people who are involved in the mess being exposed on this blog. Our prayer, even in standing against what they do, must always be that somehow God will bring them to repentance and restoration. This doesn’t mean backing down. It does mean that in standing against evil, we can’t allow ourselves to become evil. “Don’t give in to the dark side Luke.”
Zeta
One thing that many miss is that there is precedence for them being forced to get out of leadership. 1 Tim 3. They must be above reproach to the outside.
I have seen so many, even folks who speak out, say that if they repent they can continue in their leadership position. There is a nuance to all this. If they repent…that means turning away (not an apology which many now claim is repentance when caught) but a time away from leadership to see if there is true turning away. By keeping them in leadership, we only bring them more temptation to sin in the old way.
You can see how well that worked for Ted Haggard. (sarcasm intended)
Thank you, Zeta! I couldn’t agree with you more.
My compassion for my brothers and sisters in Christ is so strong that I can’t remain silent when injustice occurs in the body of Christ. TWW has given Dee and me a voice, and we continually pray that we will be led by the Holy Spirit in what we write.
I am continually reminded in Scripture that one day I will stand before our Almighty God and give an account for my life.
Blessings to you!
Lydia said: “By keeping them in leadership, we only bring them more temptation to sin in the old way.”
I agree. In saying the desire is for them to come to repentance, I did not mean our desire can be arbitrary restoration of position. Indeed, I tend to think true repentance – if the sin be large enough to cause one to lose the right to lead – would lead to a voluntary stepping down, a recognition one has undermined the witness of Christ and been shown lacking in the skills needed to truly lead.
It is a rare individual that can handle power correctly. None of us should seek it, and if it is thrust upon us, we must seek God all that much more for the grace not to give in to its temptations, or to hurt others through our own failures. Perhaps that is one aspect of the SBC (and other denominations) that tends to foster these problems: we put people in leadership based on their desire to be leaders and at very young ages – long before they’ve been able to be broken of their pride and youthful self-focus. Being the ‘big celebrity’ only increases the problem, creating leaders that are celebrities, not men broken by God who reluctantly assume a necessary burden of leadership.
Zeta
Unless you have been through it, no one has any idea what it is about.
We should really open our hearts, minds, and eyes to those who have had issues with these men.
Otherwise, many will have the same opinions as the one Dee spoke with who basically said, “who cares”…
You are so right.
I have little hope for the institutional Chistianity.
The systems which foster all this cult of personality are deeply entrenched not only in the church but in the seminaries, para church orgs, etc.
My hope lies in folks waking up about supporting the system. Without money or followers, the system cannot grow.
Anonymous,
In response to your comment, I am reminded of a wise saying that originated with British historian Lord Acton:
“Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.”
Nice post TWW……Very nice!
I am just astounded. I am sitting back and just shaking my head at all that is being done said and how the propaganda and manipulation going on in the religious communities now.
When I first had my eyes opened concerning Prays Mill Baptist Church and Mike Everson issues of deception, his Deacon disciple/ followers, The Georgia Baptist Convention, The Christian Index, and on and on, I thought it was a simple issue of men with sin issues.
Folks 3 years later, I had NO idea, no idea at all at what went on in the name of Jesus and Religion.
I see the Baptist Convention choosing sides and line up support as if war is about to take place with silly emails being sent out by men begging for support of the Great Commission Resurgence propaganda legislation they seek to push on members of the SBC. I have read emails to me from the likes of:
Albert Mohler, J Robert White, Jim Henry, James Merritt, Mike Day, Jack Graham, Jeremy Roberts, John Sullivan, Stan Lewis, Ronnie Floyd, Walter Rice, Mike Wright, Royce Dodd, Manual Martinez, Terry Robertson, David Dockery, David Platt, O S Hawkins, Page Patterson and on and on………
and I also have emails from those opposed….It is mind boggling
What are they doing? Do they really believe in house fighting is Christ like? Folks, get ready for another denominational split! It is coming. These men have one thing in mind and focus and that is P O W E R! Power over them dollars! It is not about men and women who need Christ and his teachings.
P O W E R
I will post somewhere a post at the end of the month about my views and recent developments on the G R C, S B C, G B C, and other issues soon. Stay tuned – It is a mess –
“If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it”?
“He that spits against the wind spits in his own face.”
Benjamin Franklin
I was at the Louisville Convention when the GCR idea was announced. Let me ask my fellow believers something…why would CHRISTIANS need a Great Commission “Resurgence”? There is a fundamental problem that goes beyond what a ‘program’ can fix.
Don’t be fooled. This is about getting numbers in the SBC. They are worried. If it was about real change, the same old wolves would not have been on the task force. And one would not be getting emails from the same old tired power hungry voices in the SBC.
Doug, if men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? Answer: more careful.
See, the laws in this country protect the wolves in the church. They would not dare get by with half of this stuff in the business world of audits, employment laws, etc
Lydia,
It will be fascinating to see what happens at next week’s SBC Annual Meeting, especially with regard to the Great Commission Resurgence. It’s incredible how much the GCR is being promoted.
I find it fascinating that all of this will be taking place in Orlando, home of Walt Disney World. I seem to recall an SBC boycott a few years back…
Maybe the plan is for C.J. Mahaney to inspire the SBC leaders attending the Pastors Conference to vote for the GCR. I am still in shock that Mahaney was invited to address SBC pastors. If there was ever a sign that the SBC is in SERIOUS TROUBLE, that would be it…
The GCR will pass overwhelmingly. Everyone will leave thinking they have done great things for God. It is being promoted because of apathy. (Do you realize that 30,000 people used to attend the conventions? Now they are lucky to have 7 thou and most of those are church employees! The “laity” are hardly involved anymore at all since they have stopped teaching Priesthood of Believers and started focusing on clergy authority)
And of course, all the speakers at the Pastors’ conference are great men of God. Why else would they be speaking? We should trust our leaders, ya know.
The only difference now is that people like you and I no longer believe much of what they say. And we see right through the programs, promotions, ignoring of evil behavior in the ranks, supporting wolves, ministry as wealth builder, ministry as career, etc.
I was recently told by several small church pastors that it was a waste of time for anyone other than the elite to attend these Convention any longer.
They have NO voice!
When will they have a voice? When Internet, and or anonymous voting is allowed and monitored by OUTSIDE individuals…
And we all know how that will turn out….it ain’t gonna happen with these within “the Baptist Mafia” running the “Mickey Mouse Convention”
Following Christ, Not Man
Doug Pittman
Lydia,
I really appreciate your insights since I wasn’t involved in the SBC back in what must have been its heyday (when 30,000 members attended the annual meeting). I joined a Southern Baptist church in 1999 and left the denomination last year.
How would you compare the carrying out of the Great Commission before the conservative takeover to now? Anything you can share will be appreciated.
Hi Orion
I want to add some depth to your thinking. The pain that is felt by people who have been injured by pastors and church leadership is deeply felt. It is very difficult to get thrown out of a church you have been a member of all of your life and humiliated at the same time. As you know, I was “not allowed” to join a church due to a revengeful and abusive pastor. I believe you said you were sad. I was mad and hurt. Sad sounds better but sometimes clear expression of anger and pain leads to deeper healing.The shock of betrayal by those you trust cuts deep and some of these folks have been deeply wounded by those who were called to love and protect them.
Theoretically, we should be sweet and forgiving. But think of how hard that is. Even our the pastors involved in these incidents don’t do that. Anger takes time to heal, especially for those who have been deeply hurt. Many turn their backs on Christ when these incidents happen. To the credit of these individuals, they have stuck with it. Working through pain is awkward, hard and messy. I can assure that I know some of these folks and they are doing a yeoman’s work in overcoming their pain.
This blog is a place of safety and understanding for those who have been through it. Because Deb and I have experienced similar pain, we feel deeply for these folks. For many, this is the first place where they can be real, and in doing so, can walk a road to an outcome that you might approve of.
Some people are born with a passive nature and can “forgive” easily. But, just because they are passive and believe they are taking the higher road, doesn’t mean that they are any better off than those who express more vocally their pain. Some of these passive folks just sublimate their feelings. And sometimes, anger can be righteous. Remember, Jesus threw over tables in the Temple and called the Pharisees snakes-not something that seems very nice.
Also, these people are not becoming evil. They are working through pain in order to be more like Christ. The real evil is the evil of the supposed leaders who have inflicted terrible pain on trusting people. Real evil is those who refuse to recognize they have done. Sometimes, we have to walk through darkness to reach the light. It is a struggle just like the evil Frodo fought as he sought to do a great deed.
“How would you compare the carrying out of the Great Commission before the conservative takeover to now? Anything you can share will be appreciated.”
That is hard to answer because you must remember so much has changed in 30 years. Most of my family (extended, too) have always been quite active in the SBC and most supported the CR early on. But because we were actively involved, we also saw a lot of the evil behavior that ensued. I was a teen but I clearly remember the many conversations that went on about so and so being thrown under a bus. I can even remember my mom coming back from an SBC event in Dallas disgusted to witness Criswell allowing miniature busts of himself to be sold to raise money! (And they were not cheap!)
There are millions of examples of the shenanigans that have brought us to where we are….following men.
This went on for years. I have some family who left the mission field after 20 years in Dark Africa over the BFM because they would not sign it. They offeredto sign their Bibles but that was not good enough. (First of all Baptists do not sign creeds written by men but secondly, my cousin planted churches in the Bush and while gone, his wife would teach….men and women. So in good conscious, they could not sign the BFM. So they quit.)
What has changed in 30 years to make this hard to answer?
1. The rise of the mega church. And I mean MEGA church. This changed the entire landscape. The “Great Commission” turned into reaching the “unchurched” and not the unsaved, so to speak. Invitations to church came but not the Gospel. Think of the implications to that if the church is focused on luring the unchurched and keeping them in church.
2. The rise of pastoral/elder authoritarianism and the decrease of the Priesthood of believer. Think of how this would affect the Great Commission. More folks brag of their leaders than they speak of Jesus Christ. (Al Mohler tried to get Priesthood of Believer OUT of the BFM about 10 years ago)
3. The advent of ministry as a career ladder to climb. I am old enough to remember hundreds of seminary grads who went to the boonies and worked for peanuts in falling down churches. Think of the ‘education’ they received in perseverance, reliance on God alone, etc.
Now, they begin as followers of Mohler and/or Patterson, Akin, etc and by this bootlicking hope to land a staff ministry position in a “well respected” venue that pays well. And if they are good little bootlickers, they are rewarded. (You can witness this by the “entourages” of young men who follow these leaders around)
The self promotion that this requires is insidious. Some of them are bloggers now.
The difference is glaring between the very young who go on to seminary and those older who have had typical professions in the real world they leave and attend seminary. the older ones have been in the real world and are not as gullible and brainwashed as the young ones. But they attend seminary for different reasons.
How might these changes in structure effect the Great Commission? The Great Commission in the SBC is now institutionalized, too. The point of the GC that Jesus commanded is not to get the unchurched in church. The goal is to preach the Gospel (outside the “church”) so people will be saved and JOIN the believers in the Body of Christ. This has all been turned around. Now, we invite the unchurched to church and hope they get saved. But the problem is that the church caters to unbelievers and/or pronounces one saved because they joined the church. And, it is unlikely they hear the full counsel of God while there. If they preached the full counsel of God (Acts 20), the guy preaching it would not look so good. So he can’t.
Why? The goal is numbers and money. The result is gaining followers to men who, in practice, cannot handle the celebrity. If the full counsel was really taught and believed, the pews would empty because true believers do not follow men. And true believers at some point gain discernment and pure wisdom from above. They would know that what they are involved in has nothing to do with what is taught in the Word and modeled for the NC.
Lydia,
Thanks for your excellent analysis! Could we use some of your information in a post soon? As you have clarified, the minimalization and/or elimination of the priesthood of the believer in the SBC is one of the key reasons for its decline.
FYI – My daughter (who is a rising college senior) will be spending the next five weeks in NYC as part of a Campus Crusade for Christ college outreach. She and thirty other young Christians from around the country are involved in a summer program where they will be sharing their faith on college campuses in the city. My daughter has a passion for seeking and saving the lost, and she is putting her faith into action. I find it ironic that she reports on Tuesday, June 15 – the same day the SBC Annual Meeting kicks off. Please keep her in your prayers.
I have a lot of hope for the youth who are outside the institutional seminary system, so to speak. Yes, I will pray for her. My God give her a boldness for His truth. May her heart be broken for the lost. That sounds mean but it is NOT!
A few years back, I was involved with some students from IV in Canada in an outreach to Muslims. They were so bold for the Gospel, it took me aback. They were BROKEN for these lost souls! They were NOTHING like the mega church college students I was used to being around who mainly had parties, sought emotional worship experiences and then lived like hellions.
As to the Holy Priesthood…this was drilled into my head from early childhood. My salvation and intimate relationship with Christ was to trump everything and everyone else. We were taught to seek the Kingdom… not to seek men who “represent the kingdom”. But then, in my childhood, the only real celebrity Christians were guys like Billy Graham! Now, one cannot swing a dead cat without hitting a celebrity Christian!
I got off track… lured to the exciting programs of man, of course, but I wonder if I would have stayed off track had this not been drilled into me at an early age? Early on, there was a distant gnawing in my gut that Christ was being trumped by men but I ignored it until I came face to face with consistent deception and evil in the Name of Christ that was perpetuated by and in these man made institutions. Such things are necessary to build large institutions.
This is what I learned: He disciplines those who belong to Him. If He never disciplines us, we should worry. Brokeness, in Christ, is the path to Holiness. And without Holiness, we will not see God. Very scary and while I might sound disgusted with the institution, my heart breaks over it. But, we are running out of time. People must be warned to get out and seek Christ alone.
Dee,
Thanks for the comments. My comments were not meant to condemn anyone, but to encourage and remind all that in Christ we can’t give in to the temptation to respond to evil with evil – even while working through the pain and hurt inflicted. When Christ said to turn the other cheek, I don’t think he had in mind that it would be an easy thing to do. So while I empathize greatly with the pain of those here who have been slammed about (after all, I have also been subject to rejection by these folks over various issues), I simply can’t accept it is ever ok to yield to the temptation to seek the destruction of those who wrong us – not that anyone posting here necessarily had that in mind.
Paul said “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head. Do no be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good”
Considering all the good work you and others like Doug are doing to expose the evils in SBC leadership, it would be tragic if in the process Satan was able to gain a foothold in you all. So it is in the spirit of encouraging the best, so that all will be able to be the best, so that Christ can be glorified, that my comment was made.
Jim
BTW – if you think my general nature is passive, well, then I will have to give glory to God for that impression. And I will also have to say you don’t really know me very well 😉
Zeta said:
1. “we can’t give in to the temptation to respond to evil with evil.”
2. “it would be tragic if in the process Satan was able to gain a foothold in you all.”
Zeta’s caution sounds to me more like subtle insinuation that exposure of these evils is evil itself. I reject that. Would Zeta have given the same warning to Jesus when He called the leaders of His day hypocrites, brood of vipers, white-washed tombs? Would she have thought He was on the borderline of succumbing to Satan’s temptations? In our, “treat everybody nice and don’t say anything mean to anyone,” generation, we allow creeps like these abusive pastors to get away with manipulation that no one will confront.
No, the real evil is the lack of action taken by those who sit idly by while whole congregations fall under the spell of deceitful men. They refuse to accept the intrinsic value and authority they have as believers to hold accountable those in authority, who sin. Because they don’t want to get involved or question, “supposed,” authority, innocent people suffer.
How about:
1. we can’t give in to the temptation to respond to evil by remaining silent about those evils.
2. it would be tragic if in the process Satan was able to gain a foothold, by making us afraid to confront leaders who do evil, so they continue to do evil and hurt even more people.
Hi Michael
Thanks for the reply. Before I respond I will note that I have found when reading posts in internet forums it is very easy to read into another’s words what is not there. So I will preface my response with a restatement of what I have said in a few other posts for clarity:
1) I agree with those who are exposing the evil that is found ‘at the top’. I do not think that exposing that evil is in any way wrong, indeed, I believe it is correct and good.
2) I understand that when one challenges evil, things will not stay nice and comfy. The evildoers will, in fact, likely respond harshly, and indeed, as with the GBC ‘resolution’ against blogging and the attacks Doug P has received both verbal and otherwise, the issues dee has dealt with, and even to a lesser extent the backlash I have had do deal with as relates to old earth/young earth issues, the backlash has been harsh.
So – I can assure you there is no intended insinuation in any of my posts that feeling anger or being tempted to wish for revenge is itself evil per se. We all deal with temptation, and it is how we respond to the temptation that defines us, not the fact we have it.
I fully understand that when one is dealing with a harsh or difficult situation, one will say things that reflect how one feels as one works through that. And again, my comments do not in any way reflect any condemnation of those in that position. They are posted solely to encourage all involved to keep in mind that in Christ we can’t yield to those temptations and must seek the highest standard as our goal.
There is a very difficult balance which must be maintained between in righteousness confronting evil and at the same time maintaining a heart attitude that is conformed to the image of Christ. Scripture is full of seemingly contradictory paradigms – the trinity itself, free will vs. predestination, being meek and humble yet standing firm against evil.
The tendency I see almost across the board is to simplify, to take one side or the other, the be the lion against evil, or to passively allow anything and everything. Either is wrong. We are called to many things, and we have a responsibility to balance, as much as possible, those things. So if I rebuke a brother, it must be in compassion and love, not in judgment or hate. If I offer another compassion and understanding, it must not be coupled with the accommodation or excusing of sin.
So my comments are strictly in the context of accepting as correct and good the exposing of the evils that have been raised on this blog. And I ask you to try to see them in that context. There can be no excusing the rape and pillage, both literally and figuratively, of the congregations of the SBC. And if we lay down and do not speak against it, we also would be guilty of sin.
Likewise however, we are not excused from the words of Paul and Christ (the beattitudes) in that act. And so we can’t become evil to fight evil. And the temptation will be to do that. If Satan can’t stop us through fear and intimidation, then he will try to do it through other means, like internal corruption of one sort or another. No one is above the temptation to do evil, no matter how righteous their cause. And it would indeed be tragic if those with the courage to stand against these forces succumbed to another kind of evil in the process.
By the way – since I’ve been seen as ‘passive’ and somehow finding it ‘easy’ to act according to the scripture’s commands to turn the other cheek and love my enemies (it is NOT), I have decided to lose any unnecessary baggage that may be giving that impression. My name is Jim. Zeta was for fun – a neat joke based on the fact the brightest star in Orion’s belt is Zeta Orionis. But I am not trying to hide who I am beyond what is prudent in an internet forum. And I am not afraid for the folks reading this blog to know who “Orion’s Belt” is and that what I have written here are indeed my opinions.
Jim
Oh – and Michal, if I wasn’t clear – you are absolutely right when you said:
“the real evil is the lack of action taken by those who sit idly by while whole congregations fall under the spell of deceitful men. They refuse to accept the intrinsic value and authority they have as believers to hold accountable those in authority, who sin. Because they don’t want to get involved or question, “supposed,” authority, innocent people suffer.”
The command to submit to church authority is NEVER a command to allow those in church authority to do evil. I think of the disciples who were commanded not to speak the name of Christ. They said they had to obey God before men. That is always he case.
Jim
Jim:
Thanks for clarifying. I have heard so many say they want to be like Jesus, but when it comes to being like the Jesus who angrily called the leaders hypocrites and snakes, they wrongly identify that as more closely related to Satan. My desire is to see the church correct their wrong understanding of who Jesus is.
I also take to heart your exhortation that we must not allow our hearts to darken in our exposure of evil and to not allow ourselves the luxury of hating, getting revenge, wishing harm, or being bitter. We must look past our hurt and desire that they too come to repentance and restoration.
Do not waste time rebuking those who know better. And it IS a waste of time.
Warn the sheep. If you love them, that is. Encourage them to test everything and be Bereans. Encourage them to seek transparency in a church. Real ekklesia do not have so much secrecy and humans who lord it over.
Lydia
You are right! That is where we should focus our efforts. If we can get those in the pew to think beyond cliches, we might actually tranform the church!
OB and Michael
Loved the give and take.