TWW has been following the breaking story of Dr. George Rekers, famed Christian expert on the issues of gender identity and homosexuality. It appears that Rekers hired a male prostitute to carry his bags while travelling in Europe.
Although he claims he did not hire this man from an agency known as Rentboy, the young man has reportedly made claims that he did perform “massage” on Rekers.
Yesterday, Rekers resigned from National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, reportedly, to pursue defamation of character issues against the news media that broke this story.
Lydia, who frequently comments on this blog, made an important observation. She expressed concern for the second parties involved in these sorts of sexual imbroglios with self-professed Christians. She wonders if folks such as Rekers, and by association, Ted Haggard, Jim Baker, and others, negatively affect the attitudes of individuals like the young man who acconpanied Rekers to Europe (whom the media labelled "Rentboy") toward the faith. In fact, she said that they might be responsible for leading these people down the road to forever turning their backs on the Christian faith. How perceptive and sensitive.
Rentboy has a name… He is Jo-Vanni Roman – a 20 year old who is loved by our Lord and Savior. How many of us have taken the time to think and pray for him? I admit that, on the occasion of learning about similar situations, I have focused on the “big name” and totally forgotten about the other name. And that other person is deeply loved by the One who created him.
What does this have to say about me? Where is my compassion? Sadly lacking, it seems…. So many of us have stood against the homosexual agenda perpetrated by the radical left that we have forgotten that these people are not “homosexuals” only. They are people who are loved dearly by Our Creator who happen to be homosexual. They each have a story, and they each bear pain in their lives.
I once heard a talk given by an anonymous celibate homosexual who is affiliated with Christian Medical Dental Society. He made a point that I will never forget. He said that Christians seem more intent on converting people from homosexuality to heterosexuality than in converting people from non-faith into faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
And to ward off the expected ho-hum attacks by detractors, let me make the following perfectly clear. Homosexual behavior is unbiblical, just like lying is unbiblical (yes, a dig at the Caner situation). We believe that those who are homosexual should be welcome in our churches but cannot become members unless they renounce their homosexual behavior. That does not mean that they will never have homosexual feelings or struggles. Jesus brings us to faith, but that doesn’t mean we will have complete victory over our compulsions in this life. Ask any obese Christian.
So here are some questions for the faithful.
-Do we view homosexual sin as worse than heterosexual sin? Do we brush off folks in our single groups who are “sleeping with “ each other while being “horrified” by homosexual behavior?
-Do we view those wrapped up in the homosexual lifestyle as deviant while giving a pass to those who have affairs in our churches?
-Have we even once prayed for Jo-Vanni Roman or those we see marching for gay rights?
-If we were to ask the average homosexual about Christians, what might they say? Would they see us a loving and forgiving or uncompassionate?
-Do we ever, just once, have compassion for those who were drawn to the homosexual lifestyle due to pain or trauma in their lives?
-Do we have compassion for those who have these tendencies and fight valiantly to remain celibate? And, what if they fall, once or twice? Are we disgusted? Do we throw them out of our churches?
-And, if they are in our churches, are we just a wee bit suspicious of them? Or, even worse, do we avoid them because, well, it’s weird or uncomfortable?
Today, TWW highlights a comment that we received yesterday on our blog. If this story is true, and we believe it to be, then there is a church (actually, it's a "family of churches" called Sovereign Grace Ministries SURPRISE, SURPRISE!) whose pastors and members have a lot of (as Ricky Ricardo, Lucy’s husband, would say) “splaining” to do.
One more point. If you read the following comment and don’t feel any compassion for this man's pain, then you need to check your heart. TWW is grateful for his honesty. I have not stopped thinking about and praying for him over the past 24 hours.
Finally, if any reader has any solutions for this commenter's inability to find a church, please comment or contact me at dee@thewartburgwatch.com
Dear Deb and Dee,
Thank you so much for this sensitive and thoughtful post addressing a topic that the church by and large deals very badly with. This is something incredibly close to my heart because I would be one of “those” Christians who was abused as a child and have struggled with homosexual feelings all my life so far.
Sadly my experience with sharing and trying to seek help in church hasn’t gone so well – and ended up with my being thrown out of an SGM church I attended here in England (the leaders “suspected” that I was living an active sinful sexual lifestyle). So I tended to keep my head very much below the radar and hope no Christian asked the question as to why I was still single at 32.
I have got a real passion for seeing attitudes change on this – because I couldn’t agree MORE with your comment; “Jesus has called each and every one of His children to seek and to save the lost. How should we go about reaching the gay community? Since Christians are often labeled “homophobes”, we haven’t been doing a very good job of sharing our faith with this segment of the community”.
I’ve grown up in Christian circles all my life and to be quite frank most churches terrify me – should they find out what I am. So I dread to think what most non-Christian gay people think of churches. Well – actually I know what most non-Christian gay people think of Christians! And it isn’t very complementary!
There seems to be two choices here in the UK (not so sure about the USA). You either chose to go to a gay-open church that ignores the passages of Scripture that teach that sex is for a married man and woman. Or you hide because of the attitudes of suspicion and fear that most orthodox churches display towards homosexuality.
Ironically the church I was thrown out of was called “Grace” church! Thanks again – it really, really heartens me to know that other Christians feel the same and are thinking through ways to reach the gay community – after all they need the gospel as much as the next person!
My last post on my blog; “Speak tenderly to my bride” is a bit of a rant against this harsh, judgemental legalism that comes from so many church leaders.
There is an SGM church we have mentioned before that allowed a fifteen year old boy who molested a three year old girl to not only remain in the church but to work with children at the church. It appears that SGM has a most confused set of beliefs.
I had the opportunity to work with Love Won Out a few years back and was stunned to learn how wrong many of my perceptions were about homosexuality.
But one testimony really pierced my heart. The man had been sexually abused by a trusted adult. He was artistic but his father pushed him into sports. (We tend to equate artistic with effiminate these days) These things pushed him into groups that accepted him which were mostly homosexuals. (big lesson here) He became seriously involved in the lifestyle..even as an escort, etc.
But someone met him where he was, loved him, told him he could be forgiven and prayed for him. Befriended him. He knew it was wrong but it was hard to get out! He literally had to move far away to get out. Fast forward through lots of struggles including Christians finding out and shunning him while he was struggling.
He perserveres, goes to seminary and ends up volunteering at a church in the South. He is honest about his past. The church has a congregational meeting to decide if he can work with the teens. He is there..in front of everyone and hears all the concerns. Finally, a man in the back who looks like a big redneck asks to speak and he thinks…oh no, here it comes….but the big burly redneck man asks the congregation a question: How many of the gossips, liars and thieves in this room would like to go up front and be on trial to be accepted as worker in this church? The room was quiet. So a vote was taken and he was voted in. He ends up married with 2 kids.
Finally, if any reader has any solutions for this commenter’s inability to find a church, please comment or contact me at dee@thewartburgwatch.com
BTW: Many of us cannot find a church. I am considered a heretic because I believe women can minister to men, share the gospel with men and even teach men. I know for a Greek fact, that Paul agrees. :o) As a matter of fact, in most SBC circles, my beliefs are considered to be REASON for homosexual ordinations. (Even though homosexuality was quite prevalent in patriarchal cultures and still is…explain that one)
So the deal with finding a church? Where three or more are gathered in my Name…Just remember, that my friend. The “Body of Christ” is not an institution. It is a living organism. Blessings to you and my prayers for are going up for you to find fellow believers close to home to encourage you. But please stick around here, too.
Lydia said:
“As a matter of fact, in most SBC circles, my beliefs (that a woman can minister ot men) are considered to be REASON for homosexual ordinations.”
So true and so sad… Where exactly is that connection made in the Bible?
Good question considering Patriarchy is a consequence of sin.
Yes, Lydia.
Radical Feminism is the result of women sinfully desiring to rule over men.
Patriarchy is the result of men sinfully wanting to rule over women.
Both are REBELLION against Almighty God who is the one in control…
I am a Christian in the Reformed tradition, and wanted to thank the writers of this blog for highlighting many of the concerns I too have about the church in America (particularly with regard to the recent upsurge in hype surrounding the “New Calvinism” and the patriarchy movement.) Your posts have also drawn my attention to issues I would have otherwise overlooked.
This entry about people struggling with homosexuality and our duty as Christians to express the redemptive love of Christ was particularly moving. I just had to comment.
God Bless!
Radiance,
Thanks so much for commenting! You’re just the person we’re trying to reach with crucial information about the New Calvinists. They are definitely NOT tradional Calvinists.
Blessings to you!
Radiance
A couple of years ago, we met a young man who was first betrayed by his youth worker. And then by those, in church “leadership”, who decided to call him, and his parents…well lets just say, less than truthful. The boy and his family told the truth and were persecuted for doing so. The pain that we saw changed us forever. It was the wind that buoyed the kite.
And so, this blog is a search for the truth, the love and the pain in the faith. My colleague and I only hope to be worthy of your kind comment.
Maybe I’m completely wacked but I really wish Christians would drop unbiblical terms like “homosexual” and “heterosexual” altogether. The Bible teaches there are no such things, only sinners, which we all are and those who believe in Christ, which we hope to be found to be.
In the Law, Moses includes his brief mention of “homosexual” sex under the subject of adultery, of which it is only a subset. This division of “us” v “them” is just not there, or anywhere else in the Bible.
I’ve spent a lot of time trying to nail down where this all comes from and from what I’ve found the term “homosexual” originates in the late 19th cent, in Kraft-Ebbing’s Psychopathia Sexualis, where it’s treated as a genetic deficiency, or “degeneracy”, a term also used against blacks and other “lesser races” whose lower genetic status was seen as a threat to the supposedly superior genes of the white race. Ebbing wanted to see “them” isolated in concentration camps to prevent those defective genes getting spread around.
Personally I see the ghost of this attitude everywhere to this day. Christians ought to be in the forefront fighting against it, it seems to me.
Ken
I am sure you are not whacked. But I am a bit confused. How do we define anything? A lie is not telling the truth. Homosexuality just means one who is attracted to “same” sex. Could you please elaborate?
That’s the question: what is “homosexuality”? How is it in itself a sin? When I was growing up a “homosexual” was a guy who liked Barbra Striesand and was maybe too much into interior decorating, or any other of a long list of completely ridiculous and meaningless attributes. I recall that Iran’s Ahmadinejad was roundly ridiculed in this country because he claimed “We have no homosexuals in Iran”. But he was absolutely right -Iran was never part of the late-nineteenth century American culture that defined what a “homosexual” or “homosexuality” was so people there just don’t define themselves that way unless under Western influence.
If a homosexual is someone attracted to someone of the same sex, independent of anything they do, how does that make him or her different from anyone else in the sight of God? Does that person have to be attracted sometimes or all the time? If sometimes, how long does that have to last to qualify someone as a bona fide “homosexual”? If someone is attracted one way for a few years, then another for a few years, is that person “reformed”? If that person is married and has a family yet engages in homosexual sex occasionally is that person a homosexual?
And is someone who is defined as a heterosexual somehow better in the sight of God than someone defined as a homosexual? If not, what is the point of the terms at all in a Christian context?
What I’m saying is that those terminologies are not only really meaningless in the end, but they serve to perpetuate an unchristian mentality that there is an “us”, inherently-OK-in-the-sight-of-God, heterosexuals and “them”, inherently-disgusting-pervert-evil-in-the-sight-of-God, homosexuals when the Bible of course recognizes no such thing.
I don’t mind the term “homosexual sex” when it refers only to an particular action, but even then it’s most often taken to refer to a particular kind of person that the Bible nowhere recognizes. And what I find most objectionable about that, as I’ve mentioned, is that historically the differentiation is based on racist ideology, not any kind of spiritual truth, and Christians should be fighting such a mentality not going along with it.
I hope that makes sense!
If you want more reading besides the big pile I’ve already put up (sorry!) I put my research biliography on the subject up at http://www.scribd.com/doc/31516609/Be-Ye-a-Homosexual
It examines American Christianity’s relationship to the concept of the “homosexual” from the puritans to Falwell. Since it’s a heavily annotated bibliography (notes passed out to a lecture) rather than a complete text, it takes a bit of faith to keep reading through it to see how the parts all relate, but by the end they do. Or at least they’re supposed to!
Ken
You have given me much to read. I shall begin to do so in the morning. And one thing is certain, I have a whole bunch of faith! Thank you for your willingness to share this thoughtful research with me.
I am curious what you think of today’s post.
Well thank you, I appreciate your interest! I’d appreciate hearing what you think of it as well.
I used to be in a conservative church where any amount of “hetero” sin was winked at but the tiniest hint of homo-stuff was treated as if it were a plague direct from hell. Where did that come from, I’d always wondered?
It was my project to try to understand where this attitude came from, since so many Christians have been obsessed with it, though the Bible, it seems to me, clearly isn’t.
The most important point to me was learning that if the Puritans of 250 years ago were to look at the average overweight, money-obsessed, indifferent American of today, the first thing that would come to their mind would be “sodomite”. And I think they’d be right.
Maybe I’m completely wacked but I really wish Christians would drop unbiblical terms like “homosexual” and “heterosexual” altogether. The Bible teaches there are no such things, only sinners, which we all are and those who believe in Christ, which we hope to be found to be.
In the Law, Moses includes his brief mention of “homosexual” sex under the subject of adultery, of which it is only a subset. This division of “us” v “them” is just not there, or anywhere else in the Bible.
I’ve spent a lot of time trying to nail down where this all comes from and from what I’ve found the term “homosexual” originates in the late 19th cent, in Kraft-Ebbing’s Psychopathia Sexualis, where it’s treated as a genetic deficiency, or “degeneracy”, a term also used against blacks and other “lesser races” whose lower genetic status was seen as a threat to the supposedly superior genes of the white race. Ebbing wanted to see “them” isolated in concentration camps to prevent those defective genes getting spread around.
Personally I see the ghost of this attitude everywhere to this day. Christians ought to be in the forefront fighting against it, it seems to me.
Where did that come from??
Ken
I am very confused, which is a regular state of mind for me. It seems like a repeat of your comment. It happened again under the Baptist Mafia article. I am in the process of reading through your paper and am finding it quite interesting.
Steve
Could you let me know why these comments are being repeated under your name? I am getting confused.
Thank you. I’m interested in what you think.
Give me a few more days.
Hi all, 🙂
Your UK friend thought he’d drop back and thank you for the prayers and really kind words – it really means a lot. I’d agree with Ken – I don’t like the labels; “Heterosexual” or “homosexual” either – I’m a person and my name’s Dan. Lol!
Interesting though; “What is homosexuality? How is it of itself a sin?”. An SGM friend of mine (I have a few – still!) got involved in a discussion on my blog and made the statement that it’s not just homosexual activity that is a sin but the thoughts are too. Guess that totally scuppers me one way or another! But this is the thought mentality that is in SGM – this family of churches. And it really worries me that although I made it out (well – was booted out) there are still young guys and girls in SGM too scared to speak out or share.
Just an update – yesterday I exchanged emails for the first time with the SGM pastor who “disfellowshipped me” from the church. I am trying hard to bring some resolution to this for my family’s sake as they are still in SGM. For some time there had been some confusion in my mind as to whether I actually imagined being disfellowshipped … Mainly because the impression was given to my parents by the church that I exaggerated (like you can exaggerate being ‘handed over to Satan’).
So I am trying to meet with this senior pastor and discuss and clarify what happened, why he did what he did with biblical justification and where I stand now.
Interestingly enough he made reference in his email “your disfellowshipment from” the church – so clearly in his mind – there is no confusion.
Thanks so much for your on-going prayers and support – you guys are just … great! And it really makes me hopeful that change can come in the church!
Dan
There is always a remnant even when the church is messed up. Frankly, I believe that SGM is a problem laden entity that treats its people as stupid and its pastors like mini-gods.
Here is one thing you might like to ask the so-called pastor of your former church. Since “thoughts” are as bad as actually committing a sin, would he like to have his minute be minute thoughts written down and broadcast to the church??
Here is what I think. He has serious problems and would never, ever tell them to anyone at SGM.He would be de-gifted by men who would never, ever tell their thoughts and struggles to another pastor in SGM. He is a blind fool and doesn’t have the faintest understanding of what the Gospel actually means beyond the fact that you and everyone else are sinners and he is a demigod that somehow is unable to really, truly sin like the rest of the poor slugs out there.
Don’t worry Dan. A former pastor(who really gets it) once defined our struggle with sin in our life as this. We are on track as long as we struggle on. When we fall, we stand up, brush ourselves off and go on. As long as we are willing to keep getting up, we are following HIm. Sometimes we never fully overcome certain sins in this life. It is the “want to” that counts.
You got “turned over to Satan”? Me too! It’s an everlasting badge of honor we both share.
When I was only out of high school I got involved in a very conservative church and because I was an artist (and still am!) I was immediately on the “homo watch” list, though I was oblivious to it at first. But after a few years I began really questioning things, and, the ulitmate sin, quit tithing. So the “pastor”, not surprisingly, immediately got the revelation from God that I was one of “them”. By that time I knew that they saw homoness as the ne plus ultra of sins, and routinely started rumor campaigns accusing anyone who got out of line of just that, including one woman who dared to wear pants -proof enough!
The painful part, though, was how many people who I had thought were friends were so quick to believe such nonsense against me.
I should also mention that the “pastor” was such a dope he clearly thought “turning someone over to Satan” was some kind of way scary Jesus voodoo, which only the high priesthood of pastors could perform, rather than simply excommunication, as Paul makes clear.
Ken,
Ha – great stuff, glad I’m not the only one! 😉
I agree – I think “turning people over to Satan” is held (particularly in SGM circles) as the ultimate threat. Thing is of course – if we are consistent with the New Testament, Paul seems to indicate that turning someone over to Satan occurs “for the destruction of their flesh” (i.e. – a premature physical death) for the salvation of their souls. Alas – I’m still alive and kicking! So either Satan didn’t want me. Or …. some other reason!
Rather disturbingly the phrase that has been used consistently by the SGM pastor in my situation is the word; “Disfellowship”. I’ve googled and researched the term very soundly since I first heard it used and one of the few places I can find it used is by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. So obviously one of my questions to this individual will be – why that phrase?
Thanks Dee – that makes a lot of sense to me. 🙂
Something occured to me last night – I was thinking about how pastors are sometimes likened to “shepherds”. I know that phrase attracted some negative press in the Shepherding Movement (Mumford, Simpson, Basham et al) but it happens. Ironically – shepherds as I understand it fiercly protect their flock from mauraders – wolves, lions etc. Shepherds pick up their lambs when they are damaged and hurt. I don’t know of any shepherds that stab their sheep when they’re wounded.
I forgot about the “destruction of the flesh” part! That’s what was supposed to be scary, I guess. Fortunately I knew very well by then that the one doing the “turning over to Satan” was in no way an apostle, or even “minister”, of Christ but of himself.
I hope people learn that just claiming to be a “pastor” or “minister” or whatever doesn’t in any way make that person one. The proof is in their deeds, not their titles.
Ken
I am so sorry for the abuse that you received at the hands of an idiot who may not even be a Christian. I know a pastor who calls people “religionists.” These are folks more interested in manmade rules than in following Jesus. I only wish that my friends and i could have known you and Dan before these things happened to you. We would have extended the hand of friendship and support. May God convict the hearts of those who rule so harshly.
Thanks, don’t feel badly for me, though, since I wasn’t alone in my feelings. It wasn’t until I really spoke out that I discovered that there were plenty of people who felt like I did. That’s why speaking out, like you all are doing, is so important.
I have enjoyed reading all the comments on this article/blog and it has encouraged some good thoughts/debates in my own struggle with this issue… What I am confused about though is this… Do we ordain a person who clearly states that they are an active homosexual (sorry to use the term.. just don’t know what else to say…) and do not believe that living that lifestyle is wrong in anyway… I am with the understanding – which is what I thought I understood from the person who wrote this blog – that continuing to live out homosexaulity was wrong in biblical standards… Now I know Ken, I think, has hinted that he does not agree with that?
The most that I do agree with this whole thing is that the church has failed – not surprising, since we are not in heaven yet (can’t wait!) – and I do hurt for those who are dealing with this struggle personally and wish I knew how to better lead my church in understanding and love… I think the main point is that a lot of churches “say” that homosexuality is a sin like any other sin, but then do not treat it in that context…. And on the opposite side, those who are struggling with homosexuality or any sing for that matter – I know for myself – would not like to hear what they are doing is a sin… but does that make it ok? I don’t know about you, but I find it all confusing… my head hurts 🙂
Sorry if I was rambling… just looking for answers/thoughts…
Rhonda,
Thank you for commenting. We have tried to make it clear that we, Dee and Deb, believe that homosexuals must abstain from sexual activity (read celibate) in order to both join a church and be a pastor.However, the churches doors should be open to those homosexuals who care to attend. I fear many do not ever darken the doors to a church because they are made to feel especially sinful, above and beyond other folks who dwell in sin.
We encourage debate on an honest level and obviously some will disagree with us on this point. There is an individual on another post trying to convince me that the prosperity gospel is OK.We are adamantly opposed to that position as well but are pleased that he would be willing to debate the subject with us.
We are most concerned with the treatment of those who would struggle to remain celibate. There seems to be a stigma attached those who have struggled with the gay lifestyle. One man was told that if he even thought about homosexual activity, he was in sin and he was kicked out of his church (Sovereign Grace nonsense-per usual). Of course, said pastor probably has difficulty with his own thought life. So, if a guy struggles with an occasional thought of illicit heterosexual sin, he would be told to confess and it is normal.I say that SGM pastor is a hypocrite.
We seem to be OK with those who have struggled with drug addiction, alcoholism, pornography, etc. Some churches even seem to want to reach out to pedophiles and those who have an obsession with child pornography. But, mention homosexuality and folks get a little queasy. I was told by one person that if the person really, really wanted to be healed of his homosexual orientation, it would occur. Therefore, the struggling, celibate homosexual really doesn’t want to be healed. What a burden we place on those who want to follow Jesus! Paul had his thorn and he was not healed of it either.
We condemn those who would burden folks who struggle mightily to overcome their issues. Where is the compassion?
As for Ken, he needs to know that his views are allowed and welcome on this blog even if we disagree. We also need to hear where Ken is coming from. So many times there is an “us against them” mentality.We shut down folks instead of offering them friendship. I want him to know that he is loved and that his ideas matter even if we disagree.
Does this make any better sense to you?
It actually makes a lot of sense. Thank you for taking time to explain. It is going to be a struggle but I am for what you are trying to accomplish and will continue to keep you in my prayers.
Many blessings!