In light of the spirited discussion on the previous post, we have decided to look at a very interesting development in Tullian Tchividjian’s church situation. Then, over the next couple of days, we will highlight previous posts in which we dealt with the situation at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church.
Here is the background in a nutshell. After the death of Coral Ridge’s founding pastor, D. James Kennedy, Tullian Tchvidjian, already the pastor of a much smaller Presbyterian church, was tapped to succeed Kennedy. As time has clearly demonstrated, TT had different ideas on how to run Coral Ridge, and he wasted no time in implementing those changes. Those changes will be discussed in the coming posts. TT’s swift actions in a rather large church surprised and even shocked some long time members and church leaders, including Jennifer Cassidy, the daughter of D. James Kennedy.
After some Coral Ridge members met with the elders to try and slow down the changes, they became more vocal in their dissent once they purportedly realized that their opinions didn’t matter. A group of six involved other members of the church in their dissent (which will be explained in tomorrow’s post).
In August 2009, TT and members of a meeting called a “session” sent a letter to six of the dissidents that included Jennifer Kennedy Cassidy and ordered them to stay off the church property. They then notified the church members of this legal action. The six dissidents, along with 400 other members, started a new church called New Presbyterian Church in October 2009. The splinter group included some of the elders, the Director of Music and other long time church members. Interestingly and unbeknownst to many, most of the defectors maintained their membership in Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church.
What happened next is quite interesting. About a year ago, my husband and I met with a pastor of an Anglican church and discussed a conflict that we had with some pastors in an SBC church. He asked us a telling question. ”Why don’t you appeal to the denomination?” he queried. I don’t think he understood, even after we explained SBC church polity to him, that there is no recourse beyond the local Baptist church. SBC churches function almost as independently as independent Bible churches.
However, Coral Ridge is part of the Presbyterian Church of America (PCA) and, as such, is answerable to a denomination hierarchy. I bet where you can guess this is heading. Unlike many people who are just glad to escape onerous leadership in churches, this crowd decided that their situation was unfair and worth pursuing. And so, the “Coral Ridge Six” (not to be confused with the Fort Lauderdale Five) appealed the action that banned them from stepping onto the property of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church. (This “throw the bums out and ban them from the property” is being used with more frequency, especially in Florida. Remember the FBC Jax situation with Mac Brunson? Is there some sort of underground memo circulating among denominations encouraging this response)?
In an article by Don Clemmons which he wrote on January 22, 2010, for The Aquila Report of The Reformed Theological Seminary, we find the following summary.
http://theaquilareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1302:southern-florida-presbytery-pca-approves-complaint-filed-by-six-dissidents-banned-from-coral-ridge&catid=50:churches&Itemid=133
“Meeting in its quarterly Stated Meeting on Tuesday, January 19 the Presbytery of Southern Florida approved a Complaint from six members of the Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church who had been ‘ordered off church property’ last August in a widely publicized dispute over the church’s new pastor. Acting in accordance with the PCA Book of Church Order, the Presbytery instructed the church’s Session (Board of Elders) to proceed to withdraw the action and seek reconciliation or to draft charges to bring the six to official discipline process (a church trial). According to local press reports, the Presbytery found that the Coral Ridge Session “acted impulsively, improperly, prematurely, and without warrant” in ordering the six off church property in August.”
One might suspect that TT was none too pleased with this finding, especially in light of a letter that he wrote in his own defense. It is important to note that TT was the Moderator of the Session at Coral Ridge when this action occurred. Get this. Tullian was the “guy in charge” of the church meeting to throw out the six! For all of you who have followed our concerns about the rise of hyper-authoritarianism within the Calvinista movement, Tullian’s letter to the Presbytery will prove to be illuminating. Once again, quoting from Clemmons article, we find the following quote from TT’s letter.
“No church government can tolerate such an insurrection from those who will not listen to admonition, refuse all counsel, and will stop at nothing until they have overthrown legitimate authority and replaced it with their own.”
Reportedly, later this month, the Presbytery is expected to rescind the ban of the Coral Ridge Six. Please reread the quote from the Presbytery. Coral Ridge acted impulsively and without warrant.
Wait a minute? Aren’t pastors supposed to be “specially gifted” to make these decisions? Aren’t they always supposed to be “obeyed”? One thing is for certain — despite his friendship with PCA pastor Ligon Duncan, C.J. Mahaney will NEVER allow his “family of churches” to join the PCA. Egads, the PCA doesn’t recognize the ultimate authority of pastors!
There is something good that can come out of this. TT may be forced to actually deal with the six long-time members. We are reading way too many reports of churches booting members who have disagreements with “pastoral authority.” I remember one pastor, when confronted with the possibility of his own mismanagement, appeal to “his authority”. I guess we all have the authority to act like fools and run roughshod over others. It’s called free will. Of course, Calvinistas don’t believe in free will.
For once, maybe, just maybe, a Calvinista pastor will be forced to deal with the priesthood of the believers. Perhaps he will be forced to find another mechanism to achieve consensus. He may actually have to listen deeply and change his tactics. Quite possibly, he will be obligated to deal with his own faults as well. He said at the event I attended: “If you are as bad as I am…” Well, this is one way to show that he really believes this Biblical concept of being depraved. Just how humble is TT? We’ll soon see…
TWW is speculating that, at this very moment, much politicking is going on behind the scenes. We will report on the final decision when it is reached. Stay tuned.
“For once, maybe, just maybe, a Calvinista pastor will be forced to deal with the priesthood of the believers. Perhaps he will be forced to find another mechanism to achieve consensus. He may actually have to listen deeply and change his tactics.”
Please give me grace as I don’t usually enter into a discussion about theology. But I think some things are misleading in your article…and a little confusing for me. Is it a new thing to use the Italian word for Calvinism?? I’ve just never heard that before.
It is not reformed or Calvinist ministers who are on the authority trip.There are SO many Baptist ministers who were doing that long before TT or the guy in Seattle were playing king. There’s nothing remotely reformed about Steve Gaines.
Traditional PCA Presbyterians most definitely believe in the priesthood of the believer. These Baptist and “new Calvinist” who are kicking people out of churches they take over are narcissistic control freaks…they just twist scripture to suit their agenda. That’s not exclusive to those who are reformed by any means. There are definitely plenty of hyper Calvinist just like there are the hyper fundies or Baptist who think their way is the right and only way.
You gave the example (I think) of how the booted members could go to the Presbytery since the church isn’t autonomous like the Baptist churches claim to be when it is convenient for them. It was good that the members could appeal to a group over the local “session”. There is no recourse for Baptists. This form of governing can be very positive…as I think your example showed.
Also, it’s been my personal experience that Baptist are the ones who think Presbyterians don’t believe in free will at all. I went thru a series of pastor classes at a traditional reformed PCA church. Nothing was taught or explained the extreme way you characterized the reformed thinking. In fact, it was humbling after all the years I have been in an SBC Baptist church and heard the horror stories about “predestination” and Calvinist to hear how kind they speak about “our Christian brothers and sisters” who interpret some of the scriptures a little differently. The priesthood of the believer isn’t taken away from the gospel that both Baptist and Presbyterians believe. Maybe you are saying that these wanna be “little kings”(both Baptist and Presbyterian) are twisting what the priesthood of the believer means???That may be the case. Personally, I’ve seen much more of the “authority” agenda from the Baptists. I agree with you this is wrong and not Biblical.
I so don’t want to be argumentative or disrespectful in any way. I also can’t attempt to talk about theology like Lydia or Junk. I just know that when I read this article it seems that you think the problem are these ‘new Calvinistas”(I really don’t think that is the proper term but maybe I missed a new trend) The problem with these men is their hearts and they don’t know or love God’s word or His people IMO. They love themselves and they seem to be drunk with power and making a name for themselves. But the good ol boy Baptists are just as guilty of this…and they believe the “Calvinist” have a different gospel, also.
At BBC too many people thought the problems were just with SG. It was much deeper. These men who want to be rock stars, who teach man centered theology, who think they are “entitled” and “anointed” little kings have deep spiritual heart issues that church people don’t see b/c we are not being the Bereans we should be.
Valarie,
Thanks so much for your thoughtful comments. I’m not sure how long you’ve been reading here since I believe this is your first comment. If you are relatively new, then you don’t know about all the articles we wrote last year on Baptists.
Dee and I have had LOTS of experience in Southern Baptist churches, and the hyper-authoritarianism we were beginning to see is primarily what drove both of us away.
You mentioned Steve Gaines. We did a two-week series on the problems at BBC, but we switched to WordPress from another format in late December and haven’t yet transferred our archives. We also wrote extensively on what happened at FBC Jax, Two Rivers Baptist, and a Southern Baptist church in Georgia.
Lately, we’ve been focusing on those whom we call “the Calvinistas” because they are getting quite a bit of attention. The reason you haven’t heard this term before is because it was coined here. A few have commented that they don’t like it, but we believe “Calvinista” is an appropriate label for those whom we see as hyper-Calvinists.
I loved your statement: “These Baptist and “new Calvinist” who are kicking people out of churches they take over are narcissistic control freaks…they just twist scripture to suit their agenda. That’s not exclusive to those who are reformed by any means. There are definitely plenty of hyper Calvinist just like there are the hyper fundies or Baptist who think their way is the right and only way.”
I couldn’t have said it better myself!
Speaking of fundies, we have written critically about Paige Patterson as well. Last year we criticized him for telling an abused wife to go back to her violent husband (who then gave her two black eyes, but supposedly the husband was later “saved”) and for promoting Darrell Gilyard instead of exposing his predatory behavior and making sure he never victimized anyone else.
As Dee likes to say, “We are equal opportunity offenders”. At some point we’ll get back to investigating the fundamentalists, but at the present time we are most concerned with the “New Calvinists” who are trying to impose their particular brand of theology on everyone else.
I hope you will come back and comment again.
Valarie,
One point of clarification. We have explained on numerous occasions here at TWW that we distinguish between the “New Calvinists” and the “Old Calvinists” (you know, the normal ones who are not striving for celebrity status — the ones you speak so fondly of). We have tremendous respect for the “real” Calvinists, but not for power-grabbing “Calvinistas”. Sorry to be confusing.
TT said: No church government can tolerate such an insurrection from those who will not listen to admonition, refuse all counsel, and will stop at nothing until they have overthrown legitimate authority and replaced it with their own.
Somehow this reminds me of these words:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.
Whoa!!!!! Awesome comment. Great thinking about combining those historic words with the issues in today’s churches. Best comment of the month!!!
Thanks! Makes me wish I hadn’t forgotten to type in my “name” (Junkster) before I clicked submit.
Junkster,
I thought it was you! You have inspired an upcoming article. Look for it in the next few weeks.
This is very encouraging news. I wish I knew more about the Presbyterian authority structure, though. Basically, I’m wondering what they can do to make him do what he’s told. I imagine that it won’t come easy for him (pretty disturbing quote there), and he’ll be looking for any way to get out of it…
According to their denomination, he is obligated to comply with their findings. But, this new crowd of calvinistas do not play by the old rules so it will be interesting to see the outcome. I don’t think I have seen such a high profile case before a conservative denomination in recent years but perhaps I am wrong. if any of our readers know of any other, please let us know.
Deb and Dee,
So sorry I missed the background articles that led to my confusion.Thanks for catching me up! I did read the Elvis/SG articles.Lived thru the BBC drama also.
I grew so weary of the fear based negative proclamations about “Calvinist” that I went to see for myself.(the “real Calvinist”:) I was pleasantly surprised.
The way the Presbytery functions may not always be effective but it seems better than no accountability at all.
I was aware there were younger reformed believers pulling away from the PCA b/c of issues like the role women play in the church and politics. I didn’t realize they were using the same self anointing oil the good ol boys are swimming in. Maybe they are deceived by their own urban casual cool.
It’s a shame people are so hungry to follow men they see as having charisma but no resemblance to a humble servant.
BTW I used to listen to HH on the radio all the time too.
Valarie
Love the “urban casual cool” comment. We may borrow it in the future, giving full credit to a perceptive” reader.
I read an interesting analysis of a John Piper sermon over at the Internet Monk site. They are reposting while he struggles with cancer. In it, he gives suggestions on how to know is you are one of the elect. Where I think he goes off reservation s encouraging people to worry about” whether or not the are among the elect.
Calvinistas use this fear to “control” the people in their churches. If you obery-you are obviously elect. if you don’t, well you are probably doomed to eternal damnation. Calvinists do not do this. There is a difference and we are attempting to illuminate this on this blog.
Calvinistas recalls insurrectionists who are attempting to introduce secondary and tertiary doctrine and make them primary. In doing so, they emphasize the “authority” of the pastor. This looks very different from a humble servant leader.
In some circumstances, they attempt to control all of the behavior of their “flock” often telling them which small group they must join, how often they must attend church functions,and how they must keep their mouths shut because, to paraphrase Rush Limbaugh, “they were born to rule; you were born to follow.”
The issues they make primary include such things as the role of women and the age of the earth. In the women area, one must believe in a complementarian role in which they tip it towards the belief in the patriarchy of the husband along with the eternal subordination of women to men which stems out of a new doctrine being taught at Southern Baptist Seminary.
This is the Eternal Subordination of the Son to the Father. We have and will continue to write about this strange new doctrine. We believe it stems out of a desire to further subordinate women to men into eternity. The thought of a few former pastors strutting around as “patriarchs” gives rise to such emotions as laughing myself silly to absolute dismay.
Hopefully, will will get our archives transferred soon and you can research all of these issues that we have written about.I think you will find the creationism one informative as well.
Welcome and blessings
Dee,
You said, “I don’t think I have seen such a high profile case before a conservative denomination in recent years but perhaps I am wrong. if any of our readers know of any other, please let us know.”
I don’t know if you consider RC Sproul, Jr. getting removed from office by his Presbyterian denomination a high profile case, but here is a link to a Wikipedia article that describes it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._C._Sproul,_Jr.
SGMsingle,
We learned about R.C. Sproul, Jr. in the fall of 2008 when we were investigating his good buddy Doug Phillips. Yes, he is definitely worthy of a post!
This is the correct link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R._C._Sproul,_Jr.
Sorry, I can’t get the link to work, but search RC Sproul Jr. on wikipedia.
SGMsingle
You are correct. I had heard about this last fall. We will need to do a post on it. Thanks for keeping us updated.
The interesting thing from the RC Sproul Jr. story is that is shows that even though a Presbyterian denomination can exert some authority over a Presbyterian pastor and church, the church and pastor can still chose to ignore what the denomination says and, if necessary, just align themselves with another Presbyterian denomination. So, in the end, just like a Baptist pastor, a Presbyterian pastor can pretty much do what he wants as long as his congregation supports him. Here’s the text of the wikipedia article on Sproul Jr.:
Robert Craig Sproul, better known as R.C. Sproul, Jr., is a Calvinist Christian minister and theologian and is the son of Robert Charles Sproul, a noted Reformed theologian and founder of Ligonier Ministries.
Sproul holds degrees from Grove City College and Reformed Theological Seminary and received his D.Min. from Whitefield Theological Seminary. He is a teaching elder of Saint Peter Presbyterian Church (SPPC) and is founder, chairman, and teacher of the Highlands Ministries (formerly Highlands Study Center), both in the Bristol, Virginia area. At Highlands Ministries Sproul teaches a Bible study for the community and classes for homeschooled students and serves as executive editor of Every Thought Captive, a bimonthly magazine published by Highlands Ministries. He has spoken at a number of conferences and is a vocal supporter of homeschooling, traditional family roles, Biblical patriarchy[1] and limited government. As of 2009, Sproul and his wife Denise had six children.
Sproul was first ordained in the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP). After a failed attempt to transfer into the Presbyterian Church in America,[2] he was ordained in the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly (RPCGA) in 2000. The Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches (CREC) currently recognizes him as ordained in that denomination.
In January 2006, Sproul and the Session of SPPC, its governing body, were deposed from office [3] by the RPCGA under charges including “abuse of authority in an inexcusable manner” against several families, alleged illegal use of the ARP’s tax identification number, planting a church without authority, and practicing paedocommunion.[4] The SPPC Session issued a letter of apology and asked to be released from general membership in the RPCGA,[5] and the denomination granted their request.[6] SPPC requested pastoral oversight from the CREC, which accepted the congregation as a full member in October 2007.[7]
Sproul has authored several books, including When You Rise Up: A Covenantal Approach to Homeschooling, Bound for Glory, Biblical Economics, Almighty Over All, Eternity in Our Hearts, and Tearing Down Strongholds. He has edited nine books, including After Darkness Light: Distinctives of Reformed Theology, and contributed to several others. He wrote three articles for World magazine and three articles for Covenant Syndicate. For ten years he was the editor of Tabletalk, a publication of Ligonier Ministries, and is still a monthly contributor to the magazine.
Hey JUnkster
Ever interested in doing a guest post of Sproul. We don’t need to know who you are. If not, can we use some of the info you posted. Great stuff.
Last evening a pastor that I so enjoy, gave a talk on faith and science. He made a distinction between science and scientism and faith versus religionism. The “ism” crowd on both sides are not true to their name: scientists or people of faith. Instead, they invent “isms” to add to their title. The folks who are into scientism use science as a means to preach philosophical naturalism. Te Religionists use religion to preach a certain brand of creationism or disciplinism or Calvinistaism. (whoa-a new term)
One is an excuse for atheism. The other is an excuse to place God in a little box so the person feels at peace that they know exactly who God is and exactly how He does everything.These are people who are so afraid of God’s grace and freedom that they have to stop such nonsense by inventing rules and control devices to allow them to overlook their own sin and focus on everyone elses issues.
Darn it, Junkster, you got me on a tirade. Anyway, excellent stuff as usual on your part.
Thanks, Dee. I don’t know much about Sproul Jr other than what’s in that wiki article, and enough of his writings to know he’s of the authoritarian, patriarchical mindset. I’m sure y’all can do a better job researching and writing on him than I could.
Great words on “isms” — sounds like another good article in the making.
Thanks for sharing this info on R.C. Sproul, Jr. I hadn’t read it before. Eventually, we’d like to discuss him, along with Doug Phillips, Voddie Baucham, Geoffrey Botkin and his daughters, Scott Brown, Family Integrated Churches, Homeschooling, Quiverfull (which we covered extensively before), Dominionism, and other related topics.
Unfortunately, it may be a while before we get to them because there’s so much to cover about the Calvinistas.
I think Sproul Jr. is very much a part of the Calvinista crown mindset — he’s just been a bit tainted so he’s not in the top echelon currently, but his teachings are very much in line with the T4G guys. He sure ain’t his daddy (who isn’t perfect, but is more a part of the old Calvinists).
Meanwhile continue to overlook and downplay me, Hanky Panky, and my kingdom at CRI. I just love that Deb and Dee love me! I tell all my friends to join me in reading the gals at Wartburg Watch-some-one-else! Go get them Calvinistas and leave us uneducated apologists alone to run our money machines!
Oh, give it a rest for a post or two, ok? The ladies have said that HH has his problems, just like any other guy. You want them to rag on HH every post? What good would that do?
Come on Junk – fair play? Or doesn’t that happen on this site?
Smoochies to you!
Hanky Panky
Spanky, spanky. Your ill founded and nasty comment shows your lack of interest or understanding of what transpires on this site. The mere fact that your silly comment is still posted is a testament to the fair play at TWW.
It is obvious that this is a personal issue for you and we would urge you to contact us at dee (or deb) @thewartburgwatch.com and duke it out privately.
We make it a point to allow for diverse and sometimes disagreeable (yours is one example)opinions to be posted on this site. Controversy inflates the readership and gives us higher visibility for our viewpoints. We have high Google search visibility now. So, to a point, we encourage people who deeply disagree with us.
But, just like a group of ugly young earth creationists who invaded a Sunday School class and used useless and over the top criticism and rhetoric in a hit and run fashion towards those who disagreed with them, ugliness has a limit.
We are suggesting that your limit your rhetoric to the debate at hand. We get it. You despise HH and, most likely, us. We have allowed your comments as we do everyone else’s comments. But, you are getting tiring and there may come a point that, to take off on your “smoochies” comment, we may have to kiss you good-bye, both as Hanky Panky and your other permutations. Your writing style is not clever and immediately recognizable.Perhaps you should try subtlety.
As for bias, I have admitted it and have given an explanation as to why I think CRI is still a good resource. And, we never said we weren’t biased. As my wonderful pastor says, “Everyone is biased.” That means you, too.
I shall pray that we may love and understand one another. May God give you a wonderful day.
Junkster
We suspect that this is a person(s) that has a personal issue with us and have a sneaking suspicion as to their identity. Google analytics helps pinpoint some things. We will keep posting their opinion(s) unless they get out of line. At least it proves we can take a hit and allow their opinion. As Lydia once said, sometimes it is worth just allowing their comments so that the Christian community can see the level of communication that goes on out there. Thank you for sticking up for us.It made my evening.
” C.J. Mahaney will NEVER allow his “family of churches” to join the PCA. Egads, the PCA doesn’t recognize the ultimate authority of pastors!”
Ironically, folks found out during the Ligoneir scandal that Sproul’s church did not join the PCA either. But his son did and got “defrocked” for several things among them spritual abuse and fraud witha tax number. But he was speaking on daddy’s conference stage a few weeks later.
I meant DADDY Sproul. As in RC Sproul…church did not join the PCA. Most had assumed he was. Big Shock. He could not be held accountable for his financial shenanigans at Ligoneir or trying to sue a blogger.
The CRPC six aren’t the only ones. In violation of the Coral Ridge church bylaws, several of the staff including ministers were terminated without cause. They were told to resign. And if they didn’t resign, they wouldn’t get severance. But what goes around. The New Presbyterian Church, made up almost entirely of members that have left CRPC, has grown to 700. But what has hurt CRPC the most is that it’s the tithers that have left. CRPC is hemorrhaging. They receive about $90k per week and are spending $150k per week. The church is cutting costs wherever they can. They’ve eliminated the bookstore and replaced it with a coffee shop. They’ve eliminated the music series and closed the box office. Many of the lights on the giant steeple and church are turned off during the week. Members of the TNPC are looking at a building program, but perhaps soon enough, the Coral Ridge property may be for sale.
Steve, You are 100% correct in your comments. I happen to also be a member of the church and choir member. Shortly after TT came to CRPC, I personally went to him to welcome him and to offer whatever I could do to help him. I personally witnessed the rage and lack of self control by TT. He needs help and our prayers. I know so many who have been unfairly left go from CRPC and WA. WE may have had lost our church building by a hostile take over, but not our church, for we people are the church. Many of the members received letters stating that they are going to dissolve our membership, could the reason be money and trying to sell the property out west? I do not wish TT or CRPC any harm and I do pray for them. One never realizes the pressure and stress one is under most times until it is gone. I was shocked when I heard that TT insisted that we all sign a loyalty oath to him. A Christian’s loyalty is to God. It is so wonderful to attend TNPC and see the happiness and love shown and to know that The Lord is present with us.I will be forever grateful for the “Coral Ridge Six”, who have the courage and were Christian enough to stand up for what is right.
Edie,
Your comment really breaks my heart! So many Christians connected to CRPC have been needlessly hurt because of a power play. Please know that Dee and I are praying for God’s truth to be revealed. May His will be done!
Edie
Sometimes it is a situation like this that helps one to define what it really means to be a Christian. It was when I was confronted by what I perceived to be an unjust situation caused by “leaders” that I began to define what constituted deep and real faith that transcends circumstances. God has an incredible capacity of turning very bad situations into something better.
What has happened seems appears unjust. TT appears to be like another ho hum authoritarian pastor trading on the family name. May God convict him and others who are encouraging this strange way to follow our Lord.Our prayers are with you.
Steve
Thank you so much for your input. We have been trying to get more information on the events leading up to the TNPC. We had heard about the strong arm tactics involved in the resignation of pastors. We hope that our post also helps all of you to see that you were not just having conflict with TT.You are having conflict due the tactics of the Calvinistas. Please understand: we are NOT talking about Calvinists. We are talking about a group of authoritarian individuals who want to radically change church polity.
We have a couple of questions regarding CRPC and TT.Do you know anyone who has answers to them?
1.How many people actually attend services at CRPC? We are not interested in the membership numbers. Only the actual attendance.Did this number change after the conflict heated up?
2. Did TT reveal his association with hyperCalvinist crowd prior to his hire?
3.Did anyone question him on his style of leadership? In other words, did anyone suspect that he would ignore the input from the congregation?
Our hearts go out to those caught in this unexpected situation. Weirdness ensued at a previous church that one of us attended. Lo and behold, the weirdness began when the pastors got involved with these hardcore hyperCalvinists. They are impossible to deal with.
They believe that all nonpastors are awful sinners and therefore can have very little input because of this sin problem. However, they claim they are sinners as well but somehow get a “pass” from God and can make these decisions free from sin. There is an excellent book called “The Subtle Tyranny of Spiritual Abuse.” You guys appear to be victims of the new style of spiritual abuse.
Our hearts go out to you. But understand. You are not alone. This is going on all over the country and our blog is outlining these church conflicts. Our archives will transfer soon and you can read of the other churches who are caught up in the same mess.
“were told to resign. And if they didn’t resign, they wouldn’t get severance”
This is a VERY TYPICAL tactic..mainly used in mega’s because they can hide it better and the staffers are trained not to ask pointed questions about anyone. And, keep in mind, because churches are not liable for any labor laws, they can do as they please and they most certainly do just that! Some wil make them sign non disclosure statements with the severence so they can say the person has no integrity if they talk AFTER getting the full severence.
Also, keep in mind that most churches are not in the unemployment system so a staffer cannot even apply for unemployment. So, leaving becomes a financial crisis for their family.
The cruelty in these actions is astounding that it goes on in Christian circles. It is not the exception friends…it happens all the time. I know many who have been ruined because they would not go along with whatever the leadership demanded or they DARED express disagreement.
I pray folks will understand that they are NOT dealing with Christians. They are dealing with CEO’s and Executives of organizations who peddle the Gospel for fame and wealth. Get out. Time is short. And most of all, do NOT enable this sinning with your support.
Christian brothers and sisters do NOT harm other Christian brothers and sisters. Always remember that.
“However, they claim they are sinners as well but somehow get a “pass” from God and can make these decisions free from sin.”
They have what I call a ’state/church” mentality. Their ‘office’ gives them a pass. They are specially anointed because of their office which is only a man conferred title. See, God would not allow them to have the “office” they hold if they were not “chosen” by Him.
Problem is, there is NO OFFICE in the New Covenant Body. That word was added by the KJ translators laboring under a church/state mentality.
There are only functions in the Body of Christ. Elders would be the most humble and spiritually mature. True believers recognize a TRUE elder. And they would flock to him/her. In the Word, we see elders “appointed”. The Greek for that word means “hand stretching” as in voting.
TRUE Elders would eschew fame and weath and be the lowliest servants. They would recognize that the only authority in the Body is Jesus Christ and the Word. They would model spiritual maturity for others.
All, if saved, are gifted by the Holy Spirit in the priesthood to edify the Body.
Basically what these wolves are doing is going the way of Rome. With little popes, cardinals, etc. They have been ensnared by the sin of wanting authority over others.
Lydia
I like the comparison to Rome. Deb and I have discussed this. Remember when the Israelites got tired of God being their king and they asked for an earthly king? God said He would give them one but that they would not like having that sort of king. Well, I guess we still have kings in America. They are the new pastors who rule with an iron fist and a misguided notion that they really have a mandate from God to rule their little fiefdoms- admirals in rowboats. I just saw Alice in Wonderland. The Red Queen with her huge head was a wonderful portrayal of the inflated egos of some of these folks.
Blessings
The tactics at CRPC of its new minister are still ongoing. He is trying to sell off property that Westminster Academy owns, so that he can pull the church out of debt. He recently fired more employees particularly at Westminster Academy. I predict that the church will go bankrupt and he will not have a long ministry at CRPC. Alot of those who supported him in the beginning and even some from New City have left. It is apparent that he has no accountability and can not work with anyone. He is in the office two days a week and will not lead Sunday night services or do weddings and funerals. It is like he came there just to prove something or to get another accolade. If Dr. Kennedy was still living this would have killed him.
I’m imagining TT sitting in his comfortable study writing his next book instead of looking after his flock. How will he give an account of his pastoral “duties” to Almighty God? I just heard R.C. Sproul talking about “duties” in marriage on the radio, and I decided to apply his word to this situation.
Steve
I find your comment fascinating. TWW has been suspicious that TT and those of his ilk use churches as a cash base for their own (non church) ministries. They get paid, often very well, and then they go on to make money in their real full time jobs as “speakers”
Our question to the churches that allow this is simple. Do you want a full time pastor or a celebrity wannabe? Look at Ed Young Jr.’s church in Texas. he gives sermons and then claims he fully owns them and repackages them and sells them through some dummy corporation. IMHO, the church owns the sermons if they were developed for sermons for the church.
Once again TWW extends our condolences to you all and your truly awful situation.