“This year, or this month, or, more likely, this very day, we have failed to practise ourselves the kind of behaviour we expect from other people.” CS Lewis
http://www.comnett.net/~rex/cslewis.htm
Special thanks to an alert reader who corrected our “olde” English in the title.
Several weeks ago, some new friends at a new church invited us to attend a fundraising banquet for a well-respected pregnancy support center. When we received our tickets from them, we asked who the speaker would be. Much to our surprise, the featured speaker was William Graham Tertullian Tchividjian. TWW did a series on Tullian Tchvidjian (henceforth to be referred to as TT) and the terrible turmoil that ensued after he assumed the pulpit of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church following the death of its well-known pastor D. James Kennedy.
The short story is that he caused so much turmoil that many of the leaders and deacons, along with Kennedy’s daughter, left Coral Ridge (can you imagine that?) and started a new church in October of 2009. Our goal this weekend is to re-post our articles on TT, along with the comments for our readers.
As we conversed with our friends and their invited guests, I explained that TT is part of the Calvinista (hyper-Calvinist movement) and is good friends with Josh Harris and John Piper. He is also a part of the Gospel Coalition. I also told our friends that the “big “ trend in this crowd is to quote the Puritans and that TWW intended to do our own version of Puritan history next week.
J.D. Greaar, a friend of TT, gave the invocation. The master of ceremonies read from a biography that TT had written for, of all things, the Gospel Coalition before introducing him. He explained that his name William Graham was after his granddaddy, Billy Graham, and Tullian was after the early church father and defender of the Gospel, Tertullian. TT then came to the podium.
He prayed for “God’s sovereign, outrageous, stunning grace”. I wondered if that was a shout out to his buddies over at Sovereign Grace Ministries. TT is a well-dressed, deeply tanned man with a pleasant speaking voice and features that might remind one of his famous grandfather. He utilizes similar hand gestures as well.
Frankly, it all went south from the moment TT began to speak. It is important for the reader to understand that this pregnancy support center has peacefully existed in one of the most liberal communities in North Carolina for over two decades. They eschew political involvement and protests, preferring instead to serve women with crisis pregnancies in a noncoercive way. They gently and clearly model the love of Jesus Christ in this fine work and have saved the lives of many children.
TT told the audience that he receives so many invitations to speak each year that he can’t possibly commit to all of them. (Yep, got it, TT is very popular). In fact, he said he had to cancel a couple of engagements in the fall due to responsibilities at his church. I tried to keep a straight face as he said this. You see, last December Deb and I thoroughly researched TT in order to write a five-day series on the terrible turmoil at Coral Ridge. We explained that around 400 people, including most of the elders and Kennedy’s daughter, walked out of his church and started a new church in early October (see our posts this weekend).
The next statements are germane to the title of this post. TT told us that he normally modifies existing sermons and talks to give his speeches to outside groups. However, he compassionately shared that he could not do that for this group. He claimed to have a deep affinity for this organization and explained that he felt led to do something unique and special for this particular talk. Finally, TT told the audience that he had put this matter before the Lord in much prayer and claimed his prayer had been answered because he found something unique to share with us.
The title of his talk was Anger. TT discussed how Christians are perceived as angry with issues such as abortion and that, as Christians, we should be angry only with God’s righteous anger. But, our anger should be tempered with grief. He utilized Mark 3:1-5, along with Ephesians 4:26-27. Believe me, these Bible references are relevant, as you will see momentarily. He discussed that God-centered anger occurs when God’s ways are maligned and God is dishonored. Self-centered anger is when we have been maligned and dishonored. He then made a statement that should be quite familiar to those involved with C.J. Mahaney – “When you are as bad as I am, this is hard.” (Another candidate for the worst sinner in the world contest – step aside C.J. - TT’s got Billy Graham on his side)!
Then he spoke of a conference a few years ago in which he was a speaker and was sitting with John Piper and some other speakers on the platform and there were 5000 people in the room (Yep, TT, I know you’re an important and in demand guy and you are on the same level as Piper). He said there was a pastor who was the editor of a well-known magazine known for its sometimes sarcastic look at cultural and political issues. According to TT, this bi-vocational pastor was being sarcastic and John Piper grabbed the microphone and confronted him along the lines of, “I read your magazine cover to cover but I want to know, where are your tears?” According to the TT, a hush fell over the room at this supposedly deserved rebuke from the great John Piper. Based on this eye-witness account, it seems Piper doesn’t buy Matthew 18 in real life either.
To make matters worse, TT then said, “ I won’t tell you the pastor’s name. You wouldn’t know him anyway.” I guess the 5000 attendees were the only ones with the good enough sense to “know” such a man. TWW has an idea of when and what that conference was and will find out the name of said magazine and pastor that only the “elite” Calvinistas would know. When we find out, we will inform our readers. Any readers with ideas, please feel free to comment. Any person that ticks off Piper and makes him go “non Matthew 18 postal ” might be worth getting to know.
In keeping with the current rage of Puritan quoting, TT repeated a Puritan quote that he keeps in his office. “Be soonest angry with thyself.”(Yep, we know you are up on the coolest trends like quoting Puritans). He went on and on in this vein for quite awhile. I felt distinctly uncomfortable, but I wasn’t sure why.
He then told us that he has a daughter who is a legitimate model in magazines. He said he received a text from his wife two hours prior to the fundraiser that said his daughter had shaved off her eyebrows, arm hair, and leg hair. He somehow ties this in with the thought that we should see past the external and see the internal. Huh? Modeling focuses strictly on the external, so why is his daughter doing it? And, shaving off one’s eyebrows is definitely making a statement, and my guess is that his daughters “internal” needs some help. (Although I did read a news story that at a fashion show in Milan recently, a couple of models were “browless” which raised the eyebrows of those who still had the good sense to have some)!
Finally, TT mentioned he was told that when David Jeremiah came to speak at a fundraiser for this group a few years back that there were around 1100 in the audience. He then laughingly said that there were only 500 who came to hear him so he hoped we would try to give more money so Jeremiah wouldn’t outdo him. Normally, I would find this sort of comment amusing, but somehow it hit just a bit off. TT ended with a prayer, and someone started singing immediately so there was no time for applause.
My husband was in a hurry to leave because he found TT to be extremely arrogant. On the way out, he stated in no uncertain terms that the speech was highly inappropriate for the kindly folk in this audience, and he theorized that the speech was canned. I reminded my husband that TT assured us that the speech was unique and special for this group. Hubby disagreed and told me to search his sermon archives. I just thought he was in a bad mood; however, I had to agree that that I found TT just another same old, same old Calvinista.
This morning I called Deb, my counterpart on TWW, and told her what my husband had said. She asked me to read her my notes (which were fairly detailed) while she started a Google search. I shared with her TT’s description of the Piper incident and what TT said about how God views anger. Then Deb asked if TT quoted a Bible verse. I said yes – Ephesians 4:26-27 and Mark 3:1-5. Suddenly, Deb started to laugh! She asked me to repeat the Bible verses, the Piper incident, and what he said about how God views anger.
Well, lo and behold, on TT’s blog post dated November 18, 2009, he has an entry entitled, “God-Centered Anger”. He is quoting from his book, Unfashionable, which was published in April 4, 2009. Here’s a link to that blog entry, along with an excerpt.
http://www.crpc.org/blog/?p=754
“In my book Unfashionable I have a chapter on the need for the church to exhibit more anger. Of course, the anger I describe is not self-centered anger, but God-centered anger. God-centered anger is when you get angry because God has been dishonored and his ways have been maligned. Self-centered anger is when you’re angry because you have been dishonored or your ways have been maligned. In my book I highlight Mark 3:1-5, which provides us with a memorable example of God-centered anger.”
If you read the entire blog entry and consult the book, you will find that this chapter and blog entry are almost word for word identical to the “special and unique speech” that TT implored God to give him for this “special audience”.
Here’s the crux of the problem… TT caused a whole mess of problems at Coral Ridge. It is incumbent upon him to maintain a high degree of integrity to show his maturity in the aftermath of this fiasco. There was absolutely no need for him to lie about the source of his talk. He could have simply said that it came from his book and that he felt it applied to this situation. No one would have blinked.
Recently, John Edwards (now known in North Carolina as “Scumdog Millionaire”) was caught by reporters at a hotel visiting his paramour. When asked if he was with his honey, he lied. Of course, lying is wrong but we all understand why he lied. Our question is this. Why did TT have to lie? He could have simply said he took his ideas from his book. I highly doubt it would have mattered to this crowd. Here is the all-important question: If TT lied when there was absolutely no pressure or expectation from an audience that doesn’t even know him, what will he do when his back is against the wall at his church? And how does this reflect on his handling of the mess at Coral Ridge?
Finally, next month there is an Advance the Gospel conference scheduled in Durham which is in conjunction with Acts 29. Guess who will be coming to speak — Tullian Tchividjian! We seriously question the wisdom of including TT as a main speaker at this event. Why?
He has a church in turmoil, and he just lied at a conference at which J.D. Greear was present. In our opinion, TT needs to spend a whole lot more time reading the Gospel and less time enjoying the limelight.
And as for John Piper, we say this in a very serious vein. We grieve to see this sort of thing happening in our midst. Perhaps you would do us a favor and teach TT a bit about honesty and kindness. And you don’t need to do it in front of 5000 people.
http://advancethechurch.com/2010/02/18/contextualizing-the-gospel-in-the-new-south/
My husband said to me, “TT is no Tertullian, no Billy Graham, and no D. James Kennedy.” Perhaps he’s right. Tullian needs to be Tullian. He seems to be trying to be something or someone else. Why?
Guess what… It’s the opening day of Alice in Wonderland. For some of us it feels like we have already been there and done that. May God be with the young men and especially the hero of the story, ADAM. We love you and pray for you, always. May you always remain in the center of God’s will.
on 
Ahhh. It gets old, doesn’t it? Wait until you have witnessed a hundred celebrity pastors give their “talks” a 1000 times. You start seeing the pattern clearly and you start wondering about the adoring fans. And yes, they are ‘fans’
Christianity in the West is a subculture of the culture. We have our big publishing market, our seminar market, our non profit speaking gig market, music market, mega churches, etc., and each one of these produce celebrities.
Does anyone understand how hard it is for these guys not to succomb to the trappings of celebrity? As a matter of fact, that is their goal…to make you think they haven’t…. while, in fact, they have. Image becomes everything.
The reason TT cannot see his very own cognative dissonance with that ‘talk’ is because he is constantly encouraged and supported by his fellow Calvinistas. The speaking engagments certainly did not dry up while all this was going on. They increased!
The same with the Free Will celebrities. The wagons are circled and they become more and more insulated and convinced of their position in all things.
I truly fear for their souls.
I wonder how TT deals with his aunt Anne Graham Lott’s role as preacher.
Here’s an interview with her about breaking the glass ceiling – http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2009/11/20/VI2009112002331.html
This post is a sad sad story — and all too familiar.
acme
Great video. I think we should post it on the blog. Thank you so much.
Lydia
Great points as usual. Why do you think he needed to lie about this?
I don’t think he “needed” to lie about it. I think it is simply part of who they become over time in the limelight.
They are used to making it look like they are very spiritual when, indeed, they are not. They are extremely busy people who have learned to become charismatic (not in the spiritual sense) orators while they convince themselves they are doing great things for God.
I think if you personally confronted him about this he would end up parsing and able to point out a line here or there that made his “talk” unique to that audience. They simply cannot see themselves. It is part of the insulation and blindness of the wolves.
How old is he? 40 something? And he wrote an autobiography of himself. Are we so jaded we think this sort of thing is normal?
“I wonder how TT deals with his aunt Anne Graham Lott’s role as preacher.
Here’s an interview with her about breaking the glass ceiling – http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2009/11/20/VI2009112002331.html
This post is a sad sad story — and all too familiar.”
While Anne has turned out to be the real thing. And at first, I was very skeptical about her. Even her father had to admit she was the best preacher in the family. And it is true. It is funny to me that she is more doctrinally correct about the basics than even her dad was.
TT lies, HH lies. Only difference? WW loves HH!
Ladies, quit covering for HH and CRI. With each of your new exposes your blindness to HH only makes you look more biased and gullible.
Dee wrote:
“He then told us that he has a daughter who is a legitimate model in magazines.”
Frankly, I was surprised to discover that Tullian’s daughter is currently EIGHT years old.
Here’s an excerpt from an interview conducted by Tullian’s good friend Josh Harris in September 2007, which I found at this link:
http://www.joshharris.com/2007/09/tullian_tchividjian_interview_1.php
“This is the third and final installment of my interview with pastor and author Tullian Tchividjian, in which he shares about his new book, Do I Know God?, his testimony, and his thoughts on our generation.
Josh: Tell us about your family.
Tullian: I have been married to my beautiful wife Kim for 13 years now (we got married young—we were both 21) and we have three kids: Gabe is 12, Nate is 10, and Genna Ruth is almost 6. They’re incredible. God has truly blessed me with a remarkable family (and a patient wife!).”
If you’d like to read the entire interview conducted by Josh Harris, here are the links:
An Interview With Tullian Tchividjian-Part 1
http://www.joshharris.com/2007/08/do_i_know_god.php
An Interview With Tullian Tchividjian-Part 2
http://www.joshharris.com/2007/09/tullian_tchividjian_interview.php
In case you’d like to know how seminary-educated Tullian Tchividjian feels about C.J. Mahaney’s lack of education, check out this excerpt from a blog at the Gospel Coalition:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2007/08/31/interview-with-tullian-tchividjian/
JUSTIN TAYLOR’S QUESTION:
“A few years ago Jon Meacham profiled Billy Graham for a cover story for Newsweek. One thing that stood out to me was this line: “If he had his life to live over again, Graham says he would spend more time immersed in Scripture and theology. He never went to seminary, and his lack of a graduate education is something that still gives him a twinge. ‘The greatest regret that I have is that I didn’t study more and read more,’” In a sense, you’ve been able to walk down a path that your grandfather was never able to travel. What has that education meant for your preaching and writing and counseling ministry?”
TULLIAN’S ANSWER:
“Due in part to my granddad’s regret for not going to seminary, not only has he helped to start a seminary (Gordon-Conwell) but he fully funded my seminary education. He’s the one who really encouraged me early on to go to seminary, saying, “If you are going to properly preach the Scriptures you need to be properly trained.” Therefore, contrary to what some may think, my granddad has a high regard for theological education in general and theologians in particular. His close friendships with Carl Henry, Harold Lindsell, Kenneth Kantzer, John Stott, and J.I. Packer testify to this. In my humble opinion (and there are always wonderful exceptions—Charles Spurgeon, C.J. Mahaney, etc.) seminary is a non-negotiable for anyone who has been called by God to preach. There is no way I could be doing what I do now if I hadn’t gone to seminary.”
Be sure to notice the date of Justin Taylor’s interview with Tullian located in the link (8/31/07) and the date of Josh Harris’ first interview with TT (8/31/07). Hmmm……
What would TT say about the education required to be a top “apologist”? Would HH’s education rank him with Van Til, Frame, Craig, Geisler, Samples, or Rhodes?
Sorry to be so out of the loop.
Who is HH? What is CRI?
It’s pretty standard for folks who give speeches at events like this to use a standard stump speech or previously spoken or written material. It was wrong for him to say something or give the impression that his talk was novel.
I heard Jay Badacrewski (sp? – I know that I have butchered his name) from the University of Texas give some talks a couple of weeks ago. Of course he has given them or something very similar before. Does not bother me at all.
I don’t know why this guy would do what he did, but I do think he should not do it again.
Anonymous,
Acronyms can definitely be confusing…
HH = Hank Hanegraaff
CRI = Christian Research Institute
I definitely agree with your concluding comment.
“He prayed for “God’s sovereign, outrageous, stunning grace”. I wondered if that was a shout out to his buddies over at Sovereign Grace Ministries.”
I seriously doubt that. The term “sovereign grace” has been around since long before SGM co-opted it for their use. There have even been groups referring to themselves as “sovereign grace Baptists,” some of whom have been none too thrilled about SGM’s “takeover” of the term.
“Then he spoke of a conference a few years ago in which he was a speaker and was sitting with John Piper and some other speakers on the platform and there were 5000 people in the room”
Did he actually say that explicitly? If so, wow!
Yes, he said that explicitly. I was writing as fast as I could.5000. Not quite Matthew 18 if you ask me.
SS,
WW thinks you may be “right” about TT and HH. D+D always appreciate nuanced thoughts.
SS
WW and D+D know that Norm Geisler is a close friend of HH and he is often on his show. I bought his Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics after hearing NG speak of it on the BAM. Maybe HH moved to Charlotte, NC to be closer to NG who lives there as well.
Whoops, he may not have used the word “platform” but he did say he was sitting with these guys and Piper reached over and grabbed the mike.
His 8 year old daughter shaved her eyebrows for modeling?
Disturbing post. Thanks, D&D, for keeping us informed.
Thanks for sharing this link, acme. I just watched the segment with Anne Graham Lotz talking about breaking the glass ceiling. Anne is definitely a hero of mine. I have tremendous respect for her.
Earlier today I read her book Why? which was published in 2004. We attended the same church during that time, and I can’t help but wonder whether the motivation for her writing it was an internal power struggle that occurred within the church. It was an extremely difficult experience, but I believe God used it to open my eyes so that I could begin to see things from a different perspective.
My older daughter was blessed to have Anne’s godly son-in-law as her Bible teacher when she was a high school senior at a wonderful Christian school. She learned so much from him, and I am still very grateful.
I want to make it absolutely clear that our criticism of Tullian should in no way reflect upon his extended family. He has chosen to align himself with the New Calvinists, and we will just have to wait and see how all of this plays out. In the meantime, I’m enjoying the challenge of trying to document all of these alliances among the Calvinistas.
This was a rather unusual series of comments he made. He said his daughter was a model. Then he clarified, a “legitimate” model.He said then that learned via a phone call from his wife that his daughter shaved her eyebrows, arms and legs. My husband later thought he meant a teenager but we later learned she was a child. Once again, is he telling the truth? Is she a “legitimate” model as he emphasized. Very confusing.
Junkster
Imagine sitting there and listening to this and then finding out that this was not the talk that he claimed it was. Perhaps he is under stress. We have just learned that the denomination that Coral Ridge belongs to just said that TT should not have thrown 6 members out of the church.
Annonymous
I know who Jay Bude (I don’t know how to spell it but it sounds like booda chef skee). He is excellent.
I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with someone speaking from former sermons, books, etc. What was so odd about this is that he stated he was not going to do that. That he prayed for something special and different for this group. Why did he need to do that? I would have been fine if he said it came from his book. It was unnecessary. I think the talk was not well suited to his audience. However, it is the insistence of how he prayed about this and asked God for something special. Go figure.
Lydia
I am still surprised by this whole thing.It just seemed a bit off and bizarre. Unfortunately, I began to see this whole thing in a former church. Until then, I was happy go lucky with the faith-no major problems, etc. As we say in the South, I feel like I got slapped upside the head in the past couple of years.
If she was a competitive swimmer I could see her shaving all that. Even then, only if she were older. A model, though? Weird.
Amanda,
If TT and Josh Harris weren’t such close “buddies”, I might be inclined to agree with you; however, these guys have a real racket going on in case you haven’t noticed — you “advertise” my latest and greatest book and I’ll promote yours…
Take a look at just one example of what I mean. When TT’s book Unfashionable was first released in April 2009, this is what Josh Harris wrote on his blog:
http://www.joshharris.com/2009/04/unfashionable.php
“Time for a friendly plug for my buddy Tullian Tchividjian’s book Unfashionable: Making a Difference in the World by Being Different. The book was just released…”
Josh’s post ends with “Buy the book.”
IMHO, these guys are “money changers”, and their ranks are increasing to the detriment of Christendom.
Amanda,
These guys are so predictable. Here’s how Tullian plugged Josh’s “lastest and greatest” book on his own blog. (You should click on the link to see the picture of TT’s bedside table.)
http://www.crpc.org/blog/?p=779
“My friends Justin Taylor, Josh Harris, Greg Gilbert, Collin Hansen, and Kevin DeYoung are down visiting. Each year, we all try and get together for a few days to talk, pray, think, and encourage each other. I’m so grateful for these friends. We have a great time together. Just being with them (I’m the oldest) is a great encouragement to me that God continues to raise up young men who love the gospel, care about the Bible, evangelism, expository preaching, sound doctrine, and attempting great things for God.
As I was showing Josh that his new book, Dug Down Deep (it comes out today–it’s excellent) is sitting on my bedside table (almost at the top) he took a picture. Pastors, if your wives are tired of your many books lying around the house, show them this picture and maybe, just maybe, they’ll not only have great sympathy for my wife, Kim, but they may not bug you as much.”
Yes, Dug Down Deep was released on January 19, 2010, and Tullian wasted no time in promoting it.
http://www.bookschristian.com/books/joshua-harris/dug-down-deep/635769
Dug Down Deep – Product Details
Release Date: January 19, 2010
Label: Multnomah Publishers
Distributed By: Multnomah Publishers
Publisher: Multnomah Publishers
As these guys celebrated on the day Josh’s book was released, they probably strategized about who would write the next book. It’s such a racket, and God must be terribly disappointed that they don’t promote His book nearly as much as they do their own.
Oh I don’t doubt that there is a connection there, and the evidence certainly does suggest that it’s financially motivated (we all know what 1 Timothy 6:10 says about that!). That’s why I read this blog; it’s interesting to see how the pieces fit together. I’m just not convinced that his choice of the words “sovereign grace” in his prayer, while certainly a reflection of his Calvinism, were some sort of SGM shout-out. SGM didn’t invent the term “sovereign grace” and it is used even by those who don’t like or agree with SGM in any way.
A teeny little English teacher quibble with the title of this entry,
It should read, “TT, why didst thou lie?” or perhaps “TT, wherefore liest thou?”
Elizabethan English Verbs
Elizabethan English present tense verb forms. For example, in the present tense you would say, “I stand, you stand, thou standest, and he/she/it standeth.” Note that in the second-person singular informal, you need to add the suffix of ~est or simply ~st. In the third-person singular, you would add ~eth or ~th.
Elizabethan past-tense verb conjugation, which only changes for the informal second-person singular. Instead of saying “you ran,” you would say “thou didst run.” Notice the inclusion of the form of “to do,” which is then conjugated with the ~st suffix added.
http://www.ehow.com/how_4474444_learn-speak-write-elizabethan-english.html
Yall need to stop being self-righteous about the so called self righteous. Tullian is a personal friend of mine and he admits he’s a sinner like all of us. He admits he’s an arrogant sinner in one of his books. His passion for the gospel is unmatched. I think Satan tempts those in ministry more to think highly of themselves and we all are guilty of it. Remember the story in the Bible where it was said that “Whoever does not sin throw the first stone.” Well nobody threw it. Don’t be so quick to pluck the other eye (or eyebrows for modeling) of your brother until you’ve examined your own eyes. It wasn’t Tullian who caused the rift at CRPC, it was the rebellious spirit that had pervaded a certain group for years. That breakaway church happened a long time ago in terms of his forming a clique within CRPC. All they did last year was officially break off. Tullian coming was just their excuse for leaving. The church is not still in turmoil. That five months between him coming and the vote to oust him in Sept. was hell on earth. Once those folks left the poisonous spirit left and the church has been great since. If Tullian did what happened at this conference then we don’t need to be picking at him we need to pray for him. Shouldn’t he be forgiven? Shouldn’t he because he was trained in the gospel be allowed to preach? Absolutely A lot of people are making him out to be this sort of evil person. He’s not. He’s a sinner like you and me. To compare him to his granddad and Dr. Kennedy is unfair. Tullian said to me personally that he had no intention of becoming a TV minister. He wants to be a local preacher. What he’s done for the homeless at our church and Broward Co. is unmatched. He’s parterned with one of his brothers who’s a local part time preacher and his church to raise funds for underprivileged children and adults. They are both of two different generations with two differents ways of approaching the gospel. Let’s be slow to judge and quick to forgive and pray. Too much of this kind of stuff is happening at too many churches worldwide. As an aspiring seminarian I shudder to think what being a preacher in the 21st century is going to be like. I pray for you folks just like I need prayer. May God be with you and what I think yall should do is PRAY for Tullian not blast him on an anonymous Christian website.
Sorry correction to “his clique” ..should have read “its clique.” What’s missing from a lot of these forums is (drum roll) (cymbal crash) (answer to the 64 million dollar question) A SENSE OF HUMOR!! Have a blessed day folks!
CRPC Forgiver,
A lying tongue is one of the six things the Lord hates, according to Proverbs 6:17, and Tullian was unfair to his audience, as Dee carefully explained in her post. Maybe next time he’ll be more careful…
You wrote:
“Tullian said to me personally that he had no intention of becoming a TV minister. He wants to be a local preacher.”
Well, Tullian also wants to be a highly acclaimed Christian author. Let’s see… he has written and promoted two books in a relatively short period of time. He’s also looking for notoriety through his own blogs. That doesn’t sound like just wanting to be a local preacher to me (your words, not mine).
God holds Christian leaders to a higher standard, and blogs like this one simply keep them accountable. Sorry you don’t seem to understand that…
CRPC
Tullian is blessed to have you as a friend. If my friend was being criticized, I would go to her defense just as you have. Actually there was that one time….hey Deb?
However, I want to point out that you have used one of the tactics that was outlined in The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. You say the people who were upset “had a rebellious spirit.” This can be a way to discount the concerns and pain of those who may have legitimate complaints.
Seriously, how does one respond to “You have a rebellious spirit?” If truth be told, we all have rebellious spirits and that is why Jesus came. So, I think it is better that we be cautious stating that someone who disagrees, even strongly, with a pastor is “rebellious.” We could play the “well so are you” and probably be correct.
Did these folks even have one point that was correct? Maybe you need to stop being so self righteous about those who are self righteous about the self righteous (hmm, does this make sense? Well, it at least proves I have a sense of humor ).
I still don’t like being manipulated. If TT said he was sharing from his book, it would have been honest. But he wasn’t. He sucked up to the audience, claiming he was given something special to share just for that group. Don’t like this sort of stuff.
As for the anonymous part, if you want to know who I am you can find out if you are a techie. But, both of our husbands asked us to be generally anonymous until they saw how this went. However, this is about to change in the near future. Check back.
Finally, why do you feel the need to tell us to pray. How do you know that we don’t?
Tell me one thing you’ve said that points out that you’ve not talked about your own sin. It’s folks like you and the people from the breakaway church that turns young people off from going. Legalistic oppresive folks that don’t give true true bottom of the barrel sinners (homeless people prostitutes) the chance to repent. Look at fallen leaders like Ted Haggard and Jimmy Swaggart. They seem to have done worse behavior with escorts and you want to rake Tullian over the coals for one visit? Are you serious? Look at your own self in the mirror because as I see it Tullian looks at himself in the mirror every day and recounts his own sin through confession. Maybe you should do the same. And you’re darn right I will defend Tullian and God until the day I die. Stop giving him such a hard time. He messed up. Forgive him and move on. Stop using up internet space to keep bringing up a pastor’s sin. yes they are called to a higher standard but Jesus had more compassion on sinners than the raving PHARASAICAL HYPOCRITES OF THE CHURCH THAT SIT ON THE SIDELINE. I really hope God has mercy on you. You should read his recent book. IT’s about God’s suprising grace. You could use some of it.
CRPC
Once again, I thank you for your interest in what we have written. TT is blessed to have a great and loyal friend.
-Could you please clarify your first sentence? I am not sure I know what you mean.
-I think you may not understand the life that I have lived. I worked two years on the Navajo Reservation. I was a public health nurse for years-often working with alcoholics and even one or two prostitutes in my time. I think these folks would tell you that I am a most caring individual. I have also spent close to 20 years volunteering with children and adults in low income settings. I am willing to put my caring for the “least of these” up for observation and comment. However, I tell you this to say that you need to be cognizant that, although we may disagree, that does not mean I haven’t been out there in the trenches.
-I am not sure how thoroughly you have read this blog. We have done stories on Haggard, Baker and others and their issues. Please look under categories for those articles.
-How do you know that we haven’t looked in the mirror and confessed our sins?
-We wrote a series on your friend, TT and we have moved on. If you have noticed, he has not been the topic of conversation for quite awhile. You are the one who just brought it up again and i am merely responding. This blog is taking a hard look at church conflicts and we are considering writing a book on the subject. CRPC is a church that has seen conflict and there is much that can be learned from it.
-As for Pharisaical hypocrites who sit on the sideline…are you referring to me? I am most definitely not on the sidelines and I am intimately involved in my church and Christian ministry. As for Pharisaical…well, the Reformed community has more than their share of these. Please read out posts on Reformed ministries who dictate, to excruciating detail, many secondary and tertiary issues.
-Did you read my comment to you from before? It is really, really important to understand those who you are criticizing and to acknowledge what they have said. Note how i am responding to you point by point.
That is one of the problems in church conflict. The pastor has one view and often does not listen carefully to what is being said by others. Disagreement is looked as a terrible thing instead of an opportunity to grow and learn.
-We have not “kept up bringing up TT’s sin”. As far as I know, TT has not acknowledged his fault in this matter but that does not mean that we haven’t forgiven him and moved on. Is it your opinion that a pastor can sin and that it shouldn’t be written about or acknowledged? Even the Scriptures outline the embarrassing sins of many-Peter, James and John, etc. We can all grow and learn from others sins and mistakes. A real Christian can man up and admit he screwed up. I think TT is capable of handling criticism from an obscure blogger.
We are all recipients of God’s grace. All of us have fallen short of the glory of God. However, that does not mean that we can’t discuss the issues, pains and struggles in the fellowship of believers.
Once again, thank you for your thoughts.
I just think people hold pastors and presidents to subhuman standards. I’m so sick of it. As someone that knew these folks well that formed the breakaway church I must say it was ugly. Tullian didn’t deserve, in my opinion the harsh criticism he endured. We picked him ..not the other way around. For our committee to bring him in when he didn’t want the post at first and then turn around and foolishly treat him like we did was just absurd. One guy said those 5 months leading up to the pastoral vote said “even a Valium would be nervous here.” The congregational meeting was ugly until the vote was in. I hope if you write a book you truthfully look at how our church has improved since the split. Alot of the ones that are mad at our church. They are at the breakaway church. Please if you write a book take an account of the breakaway church and accounts from the people still at Coral Ridge. Some of the folks that went to the breakaway church believe that when they left alot of the church’s financial support would leave too. They thought that the way to a ministry was to buy your way through the hard times. Yes financial support helps but so does having a humble spirit. I did not witness a humble spirit in those souls that had a lot of money. The moral of the story is that Coral Ridge is doing just fine without those folks and I wish them well. One of the dissidents said in the Miami Herald that a year from 10/01/09 when they formed that the AP is going to call him and that Coral Ridge would be up for sale. Hardly. I can’t wait until he sees that we’re still thriving and that they’re the folks babbling on about their anger instead of spreading God’s word to lost and fallen world. God bless you all.
CRPC
TWW tries to present the stories in a fair fashion. When we begin our book, we plan to look carefully at church conflict from an MBA case study method. Part of that method is evaluating what went right as well as what went wrong.
Of course the church membership picked TT. But, the interview process often does not reveal the true intent of the pastoral candidate. The same is true for the congregation. We believe that it is imperative to take a careful approach to major changes in the church. A hot to trot, new pastor may have great ideas but does not understand congregational dynamics.
One question that we were taught is to first ask the question, “Why is this company (church) doing well? What are the things it is doing right?” Once that analysis is well underway, then one begins to assess what is going wrong. If the process has been followed, the pastor will have more buy in from his people since he has first focused on the positive and what is right.
We wonder if seminaries today are producing arrogant pastors who think they are the ones that have all the answers and the congregation need to follow along or they are “rebellious.” This is a partnership not a dictatorship yet so many pastors emphasize their “authority.” The moment the pastor must state he has the authority, he has already lost the battle. True authority is earned and recognized by those who follow.
I pray for your church as well as the new one spawned from it. It reminds me of the growing Anglican movement in America. The Anglican church was founded on false pretenses in order to let Henry VIII to marry Ann Boleyn. But look at the fruit of that church. So from bad comes great good.
Finally, we have great faith that TT can cope with a little bit of criticism from two middle aged women bloggers.If he can’t, then the church has real problems.
Once again, thank you for your comments. TT has a great friend.
We wonder if seminaries today are producing arrogant pastors who think they are the ones that have all the answers and the congregation need to follow along or they are “rebellious.” This is a partnership not a dictatorship yet so many pastors emphasize their “authority.” The moment the pastor must state he has the authority, he has already lost the battle. True authority is earned and recognized by those who follow.
Tulllian has never said he has all the answers and he has not said the congregation should follow along or they are rebellious. It’s not a dictatorship and he has not emphasized his authority. He never stated he had the authority. In fact he often says that he plays a small part in this whole ministry. In fact I think he’s very humble. He admits when he’s been arrogant in the moment. He asks for forgiveness. We forgive him. We don’t make him our Jesus. In fact he said today that he’s trying to leave a legacy for Christ not him. In fact he says that he hopes people forget about him when he dies. If that’s not biting a piece off the old humble pie then I don’t know what is. He stated that he didn’t want to be a TV preacher because he’s seen the criticism Dr. Kennedy and his grandad got. He’s a radio, local preacher and author. I respectfully say I don’t look forward to your book because to me it’s ancient history. That’s one downside to a former megachurch is that no matter what you do you always are going to be talked and written about on a national level.
I fear our friend CRPC forgiver knows not of whom he speaks. Either that or TT is the most misunderstood man on the planet. In my book he would NEVER be confused as being humble, quickly pointing out his own faults. And how can proposing loyalty oaths to the congregation, declaring that he is the Annointed One and demanding letters of resignation from all staff and ministry leaders as “a sign of loyalty” be mistaken for not lording his authority over others? No, just as Tullian is a conflict within himself so does he project the same. May God have mercy on him, as he sees his need for a Savior.
The way it was
Thank you for your comments. Obviously, from our post, you can see our concerns.
I am totally opposed to the “oath” of loyalty. This is showing up in hyper-authoritarian churches all over the US. Jesus never demanded such an oath from his disciples, even when he knew He would be betrayed by Judas. He knew Peter would deny HIm. Jesus didn’t need an oath and Peter didn’t need to have signed an oath. He felt the depths of his guilt mightily.
Can you imagine on the night in which Jesus was betrayed, if Jesus had waved a sheet and said, “Hey Judas, you signed it. You are hereby removed from your position?” Instead, Jesus humbly told Judas to do what he must and bore His pain with quiet dignity. Quiet dignity-hmmmm how many of the Calvinistas reflect such a strength????
Such an oath is a manmade attempt to control the flock. It won’t work. It causes turmoil. And, unfortunately, it shows a lack of inner strength on the part of TT. How sad.
This is a response to “the way it really was.” That’s the problem you are focused on “the way it really was” (past tense) instead of “the way it really is (present tense).” No I’m afraid YOU don’t understand how things are currently at CRPC. The last ten years of DJK’s ministry the church declined in membership. The last year TT has been there it has increased. Stop focusing on the past and focus on the future ….Tullian has made WONDERFUL changes in the church that were much needed. Banquets for the homeless where as they were shunned from our Pharasaical crowd of ages past. etc..etc….Why didst thou like “the way it really was?
Sorry correction…why didst thou LIE “the way it really was”?
Now I am getting confused-was, is, which is which and whose on first.
“The last ten years of DJK’s ministry the church declined in membership. The last year TT has been there it has increased”
So, you base truth and spirituality on numbers? So does Rick Warren.
How do you square that with this:
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
Read the whole passage of John 6. When there is the hard teaching, many will leave. And by saying this, I am not saying that DJK preached the hard stuff. He was mostly political.