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What do you get when sheep get a PhD? … Just stupid sheep with a PhD! Incredibly, J.D. Greear, a rising star in the SBC, included this question and answer in his sermon the day my husband and I visited The Summit. It appears this comment has been edited out of the sermon archive at the church web site.
C.J. Mahaney never got any degrees beyond high school. Joshua Harris was homeschooled and didn’t earn any further degrees. The Duggars have homeschooled their kids and the two oldest children, who are now college age, run a used car lot. Ken Ham of Answers in Genesis calls himself a creation “scientist”; yet he has never earned more than a bachelor’s degree. In case a reader might like to proclaim that Mahaney and Harris have created “The Pastor’s College” and by this are now educated, we at the TWW are not impressed. A nine-month education is not serious study in any field. This is only magnified by the fact that said attendees of the PC do not need a college education in order to enroll.
So what’s the problem? Quite simply, Mahaney, Harris, and others have not been tested in an objective manner. Mahaney calls himself a “pastor/athlete.” Just as Mr. Humility has named himself as head of SGM’s “apostolic team”, he has also named himself an athlete. To the best of our knowledge, his athleticism has not been tested. Did he play collegiate level sports in which he was part of a recognized team? Did he every try out for the Olympics? Mahaney simply declares himself an athlete. A real athlete moves up the ladder within sports. For example, my son who plays soccer has moved from recreational level soccer to what is called “Classic” soccer, which is achieved by both experience and tryouts. He now plays varsity high school soccer. To get to that level, he had to try out and advance through junior varsity soccer. He has elected not to try out for soccer in college. He has decided that it is neither his passion nor is he playing well enough for a college level team. He would laugh if you called him an “athlete.” He would claim to enjoy sports; he would claim to “mess around” with soccer; but he would never have the hubris to call himself a soccer athlete. He knows his limitations. He has played the sport and has been judged by his peers and his coaches.
Mahaney also regularly declares himself as one who studies Spurgeon, Calvin, the early church fathers, etc. He loves to quote such individuals and, as such, gives himself the cachet of understanding these vaunted individuals; however, he has never placed himself in a position to study under those who have made theology their life’s work. Those professors have gone through the Masters and Doctoral programs in which their very thoughts are closely judged by the tests they take and the papers they write. They must defend their thoughts during dissertations. And most have had to write and rewrite and revise their thoughts over years until they finally hold that degree that authenticates their years of study and hard work.
I have absolutely no idea just how deeply Mahaney has studied these theologians. It is far too easy to Google any of these guys and throw in a quote which Mahaney is famous for doing, especially in his books. Most folks take you at your word and far too impressed with those who quote “smart sounding” guys.
Ken Ham is able to give the appearance of being a “scientist.” The average person has no idea how difficult it is to obtain such a title in the real world. One must first earn a PhD. Then, one sets up a postdoctoral experience in which he/she conducts independent research. This research is turned into articles that are then published in journals such as Science and Nature. These journals have rigorous peer review to make sure that the data and conclusions stand up to scrutiny. Then, one has his/her own lab and his/her own grant money. Once again, Ham is guilty of (at the minimum) arrogance to include himself in these ranks. In the event there are members of the Young Earth (YE) crowd who are scanning for bias, Dr Kurt Wise, in the YE group, comes closest to matching this description. This is NOT a discussion on creationism.
The value of academic training is that it forces an individual to consider opposing views, to defend one’s point of view, and to prove that one understands what one is reading. Papers and debates give professors the ability to judge, challenge, or congratulate the budding student.
Mahaney has close contact with the likes of Al Mohler and John Piper. Shouldn’t that keep him on track? Our answer is a resounding, “No.” There is a good reason for this. Take, for example, Mahaney’s aversion to foreign missions. Approximately ten years ago, John Piper subtly chastised him for his lack of concern for missions. Funny thing about that, however. Nothing has changed whatsoever in Mahaney’s abysmal lack of appreciation for missions in the last ten years. In fact, this “apostle” considers his own churches “missions.” These are the ones he plants or “adopts” in areas with wealthy people and well established churches.
Why hasn’t Mahaney responded to Piper’s challenge to be more missional? Perhaps it’s because they speak at the same conferences and endorse each other’s books which points to the question of MONEY. Also, pastors appear to loathe criticizing other pastors which causes us to theorize that the ‘old boys’ clubs (women rarely allowed) is alive and well within Christendom.
When people become dependent on each other for income and notoriety, it is quite easy to overlook minor issues such as “calling each other on the carpet”. Mahaney is friends with Al Mohler, John Piper, Mark Driscoll, John MacArthur, Ligon Duncan, and the members of The Gospel Coalition and the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals — organizations to which he belongs. What amazes me is that Mahaney is quite cozy with the seminaries in the SBC, especially Southern Seminary. Heck, Mahaney makes graduates of SBTS, where his buddy Mohler is president, go through his nine month “Bible light” Pastors’ College (PC) since he obviously believes his college’s training trumps that of a real seminary. But, guess what? The PC gets people like Wayne Grudem to teach there (obviously, very part-time) so it must be OK, right? Hmmm, how much does he pay these guys to do this? Better yet, we would love to see how much money Mahaney has made Piper over the years to get him to shut up on the lack of missions and the allegations of abuse within Sovereign Grace Ministries.
In fact, it is most disconcerting to see that J.D. Greear recommends Mahaney’s books, Humility and Living the Cross Centered Life, on his blog. The latter illuminates Mahaney’s view on sin. In fact, it is his view of sin that deeply troubles us. We believe that Mahaney’s lack of education may have led to his conclusions. We also believe that Mahaney’s method of control of the people in his churches stems from his limited view of atonement. We also might suspect that it is Mahaney’s conclusions that cause folks like Greear to approve of Living the Cross Centered Life.
Here is what we mean. Mahaney stops the Christian walk at the cross. He meditates on our sin and how we are so sinful, yet he rarely understands the depths of our sin. He points to the need for the cross as his proof. Yet, he forgoes mentioning what actually happened on the cross. Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners. But, He also said that “It is finished.” Mahaney gives short shrift to the resurrection and the fact that we are now, “Free, free, indeed.”
“Free, indeed” means that Jesus calls us all into the priesthood of the believers. This is a scary thing to control freaks like Mahaney. Don’t believe that he is? Just read the myriad of survivors’ sites that tell tale after tale of control and pain. So many blogs, so much smoke, so there must be fire! (Try just one – sgmsurvivors.com).
We believe that Greear may be cut from the same cloth. Let’s revisit the quote at the top of this post. Greear preaches in the Research Triangle area of North Carolina, which is home to Duke, UNC-Chapel Hill, N.C. State and other colleges and universities as well as the home to great high tech and pharmaceutical companies such as SAS and Glaxo. It is also home to the greatest college basketball on the planet and, may we say, C.J., you ain’t no Michael Jordan. The Triangle (Raleigh, Durham, and Chapel Hill) has the highest concentration of PhDs in the country! The great Francis Collins (Christian, head of the National Institite of Health, and leader of the Human Genome Project) trained here, Duke and UNC conduct world class, cutting edge research in many areas such as oncology and cardiology.
Greear is letting all of us know that we are nothing more than a bunch of sinful sheep, and it doesn’t matter how smart we are. How very sad! It is worth noting that The Summit is a “young” church in more ways than one. The congregation has a large constituency of college students who love to hear their “shepherd” put their professors in their place! It’s highly unlikely that many professor types attend his church.
God gave us our intellects to explore this world that we have been given. Greear, however, wants to put us in our place. We are just dumb sheep. But, he is the pastor and he somehow gets a pass on this “dumb” issue. Therefore, he can let all of us know just how sinful we, the sheep, are so we better shut up and listen to him. Oh, and don’t try and tell him how to run his church.
J.D., there is a better way to say this, but perhaps it is more threatening to you. Yes, we are all sinful; but so are you. God has given each one of us the following: a mind, reasoning ability, compassionate hearts, the Holy Spirit, forgiveness, and love. Together, as the community of the forgiven, we all bear the mark of God, and believe it or not He speaks through ALL of us.
So, instead of denigrating the calling that God has given to those who have been called to higher learning, why don’t you rejoice in the blessing that God has brought such gifted people into your midst and figure out how to use their gifts to further the kingdom? Did you know that there is a science professor at UNC-CH who has formed a student/faculty Christian fellowship that meets once a month for encouragement and evangelism. Also, the next time, include yourself, front and center, in the dumb sheep with a PhD. Or, do you believe that you are just a bit better or have been given a secret gift that eludes the rest of us sheep?
TWW highly recommends Mark Noll’s seminal book, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind. Noll published this book in 1994, and his words resonate in 2010. In fact, was he a prophet exhorting us to a great calling? He says that Christians have dumbed down the Gospel, have entered a holy huddle, and have eschewed the universities and the arts, leaving education to those who do not follow the One Who created our minds. We reap the consequences of this in a society that increasingly forgets the role of faith in the public square. Why not? Christians have deserted rigorous study and have settled for silly little sermons like Ed Young, Jr.’s sermon on “Sex for Seven Days.” EGADS, no wonder the world looks down on our intelligence. Then Christians complain that atheists run the universities. Well, who among them studied enough to stop this from happening? This public square will not listen to uneducated men like Ken Ham and C.J. Mahaney. They respect those who have done the work to achieve higher education. Folks like Francis Collins and Dr. John Lennox of Oxford have done the work and have earned the right to be heard.
Christians such as Francis Collins, Michael Card (who writes a Christian music and is working on a PhD in Classical Literature) , Walt Kaiser (PhD from Brandeis University and President of Gordon Conwell), and many, many others have studied hard and opened themselves up to peer review and criticism. We admire those within Christian circles who have had the courage to submit their views and thinking to objective scrutiny within the institutes of higher learning where they know they will be challenged.
We join with Dr. Noll and others to implore Christians in positions of prominence not to denigrate higher learning. In fact, we believe that folks like Mahaney should be encouraging higher education. We also believe that Christians need to enter into all aspects of our society and show the world that are not afraid to enter the debate on any level. Richard Dawkins might think Christians are delusional, but he must admire Francis Collins who has achieved more in the world of science than most any other scientist alive. And this has earned him the right to be heard.
Just to show how easy it is to pretend like we know all about Spurgeon and Galileo, we leave you with some Googled quotes. Are you impressed, yet?
“The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is knowledge of our own ignorance”.
- Charles Haddon Spurgeon
(http://www.famousquotesandauthors.com/authors/charles_haddon_spurgeon_quotes.html)
“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.”
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
(http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/quotes.html)
I love this post so much!
It’s so true, the art of “quoting” has become quite fashionable, and I didn’t really get it until you pointed out how easy it is to google any quote. I am a former SGM-er (spent 2 years in SGM in England) and all you heard was quote after quote, followed by a re-hashed C J Mahaney “joke” you may have heard;
“I’ve never had an original thought in my life”.
There are a few blogs that now follow the Mahaney/SGM style and run quote after quote after quote, and in fact one blog I know of doesn’t even google his own original quotes, but quotes other bloggers quotes – so 3rd hand quoting!
Love it – well pointed out, Wartburg Watchers!
Dan,
We’re so happy to have you at TWW!
I saw your comment over at the Refuge on the day you posted it (Dan February 11th, 2010 at 9:41 am). I phoned Dee, and we both marveled that a Brit was commenting on the information we uncovered regarding contributions C.J. and SGM have made to Southern Seminary. It’s a small world after all…
FYI, my mom is a full-blooded Norwegian. She moved to the U.S. with my American father after they were married in her hometown of Stavanger. My dad was stationed in Norway during the Korean Conflict, and he met her on his first night in Norway. They dated for two years, and I sometimes tease them about how they communicated. I guess love is a language all to itself! I’m half Viking, and sometimes I feel like it, especially when I’m writing here at TWW. Watch out!!!
I have enjoyed all of your insights at the Refuge and Survivors, and I hope you will continue to comment here.
BTW, my husband and I will be traveling to Europe with our daughter and about 50 students from her senior class (high school) in late May/early June. We’ll be flying into London, then taking the train to Paris, then to Rome and Florence. It should be an exciting trip!
Amen. Somebody told me that Joshua Harris’ brothers authored a book entitled “Do Hard Things” and that it is a really good book.
I wrote my friend and said something like this – Do hard things? Like go to MIT, major in math and get a PhD in math and live for the Lord during that time? Is that what you mean?
This is why we have chosen to educate our children at an independent private school. It is not Christian. It is tough on them. They are challenged by some atheist profs and the ideas of their peers. But we are praying that this will make the edcuated and strong people, and that God will use this experience.
I am very concerned that the approach of many Christians seems to be to create a ghetto. That is not a NT strategy. Of course, God uses all types of backgrounds and abilities. But we should at least be encouraging some of our children to enter the sciences, TV, motion pictures etc. in the real world.
Anonymous,
I absolutely LOVE this comment:
“I wrote my friend and said something like this – Do hard things? Like go to MIT, major in math and get a PhD in math and live for the Lord during that time? Is that what you mean?”
What a great response to your friend! Wish I had thought of it. I’ve absolutely had it with the “opportunistic” Harris clan.
My older daughter is a junior at UNC-Chapel Hill, which is certainly not a “Christian” university. She has been involved with Campus Crusade for Christ the entire time, and she had truly witnessed to her lost friends there. It has been an AWESOME, life changing experience for her!
She has been selected by Campus Crusade for Christ to spend 5 weeks in NYC this summer in a community outreach program. I’m very proud of her for wanting to stretch her faith and put her evangelistic skills to work in the real world.
Thanks for your important comment.
Deb,
The Cross Christian Church, (my home church for now) in Lafayette Indiana had our first minister leave for the sole purpose to get his Ph.D. He stated that no one will take his books and his studies serious unless he gets his higher degree.
We Christians have instituted this fraud that higher trained degree individuals have more revelations about the meaning of the Word of God than some of those who have not obtained the higher degree.
This is a very self righteous, self serving, position stealing, and political take over of the Church.
There are no biblical references that address the formal education required in being able to witness or tell the Good News to the people. Or for that matter to become a leader in the Family of God, the Bride of Christ, the Church.
I think that some Christians, family members of God on earth, have answered YES to the question that God asked Job, in Job chapter 40, verse 8.
Since we like quotes in this discussion group, the verse says: (King James Version)
“Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?”
Have we condemn the spirit of the teachings of Jesus, “The Truth”, by instituting “Man Doctrine and Requirements”?
By “MAN” I mean both male and female.
Hi Mortal
Thank you for your thoughtful comment. We may be talking about two different subjects. There are pastors who barely get a high school education and then create a whole theology based on a misunderstanding of Scripture. for some of these, a simple seminary degree would have corrected some of these issues.There are great seminaries out there.
I think that college helps one to learn to express ideas, expand horizons, and, in general, learn about the world that God has given us. Limiting oneself to high school seems a bit premature.
Then, there are those pastors who actually disdain education and those who are educated. Yet, God gave us intellect and reason. We need Christians who are trained scientists, doctors, educators, computer specialists, and so on. In being created in the image of God, He has given us the means to discover His creation, and in doing so, discover cures for heart disease, brain tumors. He also allows us to experiment to find materials such as plastic, rayon, velcro, etc.
All truth is God’s truth, whether it be math or soteriology.
Blessings
Neither of us believe that one “must” have an education to serve God. But, an education can give breadth and depth to understanding.
I highly recommend Mark Noll’s excellent and well thought out book, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind.
Anonymous
I agree. We need to look at each of our children as individuals and help them to stretch themselves, using the talents that God has given them. I think it is great that you are challenging your kids. Read Mark Noll’s book. He would give you a pat on the back.
Blessings
What is even stranger is that Al Mohler has made theological education his life purpose. Yet, he actively promotes Mahaney and his uneducated pastors at SGM. It really makes no sense.
I think you are placing too much emphasis on a seminary education. Spurgeon and Lloyd-Jones were without seminary education. It must be asked: what seminary? I worked with 2 MDivs. One was a Zen Buddhist priestess, the other was ordained by the Episcopal church despite no training in that faith. I doubt that you would want either of these MDivs pastoring your local evangelical church.
It may be unfair to call Mahaney’s PC grads uneducated. I am no Mahaney or SGM fan but I have known a fair number of SG pastors. The ones who are older usually have one or more college degrees and some of them have MDivs.
There is much of interest to read on this site but beware of losing you punch by over-generalizing.
Thanks for the discussion.
Hi Just Asking
We are not just putting emphasis on seminary education, but other education as well. First, most of us on this site know the difference between a Zen Buddhist who went to some liberal seminary. Same thing with your Episcopalian liberal. There are wonderful seminaries such as Gordon Conwell that are not turning out Buddhists.
Secondly, you did not mention other forms of education. Back 150 years ago, surgeons learned how to amputate from other surgeons. Then they amputated with dirty hacksaws and a shot of gin. Today, one can go to Duke and receive a fine education and learn to amputate utilizing sterile technique, anesthesia and sharpened instruments. Perhaps you did not read out entire post because we feel we are not overgeneralizing unless you prefer the hacksaw approach to amputations.
I implore you to read the recommended book by Mark Noll called The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind. It might give you further depth to your thinking on this matter.
I have graduate degrees, including a Ph.D. in psychology and a law degree. The demands of in depth study help one to concentrate, to read and reread, extract meanings, write them down, put them away, and later repeat the process, finding greater depths of understanding of what one has read or studied. Such training also helps one to learn how to avoid common falacies.
One example. During my education, I learned that most languages, including the original languages of the Bible, use the masculine form for plurals, even when females are included. So that two sisters and one brother become three brothers (e.g., in Spanish tres hermanos, even if two are hermanas). It makes one more careful in reading English translations to avoid foolish statements not supported in the original language.
Education also helps one to find links among ideas and concepts.
I have corrected several pastors who make false statements like “the Supreme Court banned prayer in public schools.” The truth? The court banned agents of the state from REQUIRING prayer, and at first, from requiring a STATE WRITTEN prayer. Such false statements make a pastor look foolish and reduce his ability to witness to the world regarding the Truth and the Life.
Hi ARCE
Thank you for you helpful comment. I am amazed at the number of Christians who downplay the value of education. Where would be if we all worked in used car lots. To those who work in used car lots, be careful here. I am not saying that there is not value in selling used cars. Our last few cars are all used. However, if there were not scientists studying how to limit pollutants, how to make safer cars, we would all be in trouble. There is a place for all in God’s world but we need to understand the incredible value of an excellent education.
I agree. The goal of education – all education, but *especially* graduate-level education, is to teach you how to think. Two of the most important skills taught in graduate school – how to read and think critically and how to analyze – have applications in ALL areas of life. Graduate school has even changed how I watch the news. I can no longer listen the latest findings (even on topics completely unrelated to my field of study) without questioning the size of the sample, how the sample was chosen, how factors were controlled for in the study, how the questions on a survey were worded, etc. That’s not even beginning to touch on the knowledge gained in the coursework itself!
On another note, I have to second the recommendation of Noll’s book. “The scandal of the evangelical mind is that there is not much of an evangelical mind.” Good book.
Thanks for adding the quote. I concur. “The scandal of the evangelical mind is that there is not much of an evangelical mind.”!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are a few people from a previous church who would do well to read this book. But, to quote one of those pastors “My research has not shown that!!!!” What research??? Not much, to be sure. We shall continue on with this subject on Monday because I am on a tear about this.
Blessings
A RETRACTION BY YOUR HUMBLE BLOG QUEEN
I may have been mistaken in response to Just Asking. In it, I mentioned that 150 years ago, amputations were performed with dirty hacksaws and a shot of gin (usually swallowed by the amputee).
However, although gin has been present in the US since the colonial days, it was not in widespread usage until the Prohibition.Therefore, in the interest historical accuracy, I pondered whether I should substitute “whiskey” for “gin.” However, history makes it clear that many folks had bathtub stills and used many ingredients to produce consumable alcohol. So, I shall use the word, “hootch”, instead of “gin,” not to be confused with the term “hootchie mama” which is another subject entirely.
A Further Correction
Hootch should be spelled “hooch” and “hoochie mama” is spelled thusly.
No one is questioning that God raises up a Spurgeon or others from time to time who are not educated.
As a norm, however, we should be encouraging our children to seek an education and that educational attainment is a good thing. And if our congregations are educated, the people who lead them should be, too.
It is true that a formal education in any culture can produce errors and perpetuate some of the culture’s ungodly behaviors or thought patters. But the answer is not to skip education to avoid the possibility of picking up a pathogen.
It is more likely that if we raise a generation of ministers who are not well educated that we are MORE LIKELY to follow unscriptural and ungodly paths into which these men might unwittingly lead us. An educated person might have read about previous errors the church may have made over the centuries. And he might have a better grasp of the biblical languages and systematic theology that would keep him from theological error.
Anonymous
Amen and I can tell from your well thought out post that you are educated.
I’m lookin’ for a fulcrum point here, an’ havin’ trouble tryin’ ta’ find one.
Maybe it’s cuz I don’t hold a doctoral degree huh?
Don’t get me wrong, I ain’t sayin’ all them doctoral fellers are all wet, all I’m wonderin’ is if a body ain’t got fancy letters after his name, does it mean he cain’t think?
While Nikola Tesla’s learned academic detractors on both sides of the Atlantic called him a chimera chasing crackpot and wrote paper after paper on why his stuff wouldn’t work, he went ahead and did it, and it indeed worked.
Hi Muff
Please read the entire article and add today’s post and the planned post onto your reading list. We never said that a PhD was a must. Neither of us have one though we both have advanced degrees.
We wrote this with concern that the evangelical crowd is forsaking rigorous academic pursuits for a Google type of education. By rigorous, we mean that those in positions of influence should, in general, have studied under others and have had their ideas tested, not by their adoring and sometimes poorly educated masses, but by those who have studied the subject and can give valid and objective feedback.
Once again, do you want your OB doctor to have no higher education except to have watched his farmer friend delivering animals? I encourage you to read Mark Noll’s book.His critiques are valid. Please comment again after reading today’s post and see if you understand the problem that we are addressing.
By the way, many of Tesla’s problems did not stem from his lack of education but from his bizarre personality and mental health issues which caused many to doubt his hold on reality. I think today he would have been treated with many of the medications that have been invented by educated researchers and he might have been able to conduct himself in a manner worthy of his his innate intelligence.
True, you never explicitly said that an advanced degree was necessary for credibility in advanced endeavour, but I did see an implied slope field in that direction.
I’ve read Noll and I am in agreement with many of his salient points.
I am also fascinated with the writings of Greg Boyd.
I’ll grant you that Tesla was like a rogue comet out past the Oort cloud. But for all his eccentricty (no pun intended), he did indeed make a large contribution to the technological society we enjoy today.
I’m not so sure though, that he would have benefited much from the psychotrophic drugs churned out by the corporate behemoths that rule our universities these days. Aldous Huxley saw it coming, but I doubt that he saw Pfizer leading the charge.
Just for grins, Google up Wendell Berry’s commencement address (2007) at Bellarmine University. He takes Corporate America to task with verve and elan. Berry has more credibility than the folks at Fox News will ever have.
Excellent article, I had never heard that Ham only had a bachelor’s. Ugh.
Just a side note; the Duggars have FOUR (!) children college age (though one is married and just had a child @ 21), another who is 17, and they avoid every question about college. They are big fans of Bill Gothard
Hi Nicole
You’ve got the Gothard link right. We are trying to transfer over our archives and tag and categorize them so folks can see what we have written in the past. We actually have discussed the Gothard connection. We also wrote a weeks series on the Duggars.
Ham is called a “creation scientist” by so many people. He is no scientist and, as far as I am concerned, he is no theologian as well.But he sure has positioned himself as an authority and so many people, who do not understand what real scientists do, actually follow his as an “authority.”
THanks for your great comment.
Muff
You sound very bright. However, it seems as if you are saying that psychotropic drugs are tantamount to a government takeover to control people. I have seen schizophrenics, manic depressives, seriously depressed, OCD and other folks effectively treated by medication.I was a public health nurse and worked in some very difficult areas that most people would be afraid to go.
Of course, there is over usage of drugs, not just in psychiatric venue,s but in infections, etc. But I have seen lives changed with judicious use of drugs.My heart goes out to Tesla and others who actually may have benefited by modern discoveries. Poor JB Philips, the Bible writer, suffered and spent time in institutions being treated for mental disability. Just like antibiotics (discovered by those educated), psychotropics have saved many a life. By saved, I mean giving them the ability to participate in day to day life.
As for corporations controlling universities, I once again have to disagree with such a far reaching statement. My husband was the Young Investigator of the Year for the American College of Cardiology (back when we were young). He also did basic bench research on receptors both at Duke and UTSW. UTSW has a number of Nobel laureates. Neither my husband nor most of them were ever beholden to a drug company. Research is research and truth is truth.Most scientists are in it for the love of discovery and would bristle at being told they were schills for drug companies since most are too cussedly independent for that.But, like anything else, there are some.
Finally, I worked for Glaxo SmithKline for a couple of years. Once again, the people who work there are truly interested in discovering drugs to treat diseases.Trust me, there are few meetings about “how to take over universities.” Drug companies need good researchers who can carefully conduct drug studies in order to be sure the drugs are safe and effective. The money they earn go to fund their labs for research that wouldn’t be done otherwise. These researchers are not getting rich-I know, I lived it personally and professionally. Of course, there are exceptions.I praise God for the drug companies filled with most people who want to make a living helping others.
I shall check out Wendell Berry’s address.Thank you for taking the time to dialogue. I have enjoyed it!!!
Dee,
Thank you for your balanced and timely reply. I am confident that your husband is a prince of a man as are so many others in the medical field.
And no it’s not the scientists who are getting rich, they are simply the do-bees who pay the bills, raise families and pay their taxes.
It’s the multi-national coporations who are getting rich. They do so with impunity, and at the expense of the humanness we all hold dear.
Did you know there was a time when corporate charters could only be renewed at the pleasure of state legislatures and for the common good?
The Dodge vs Woolsey decision (Supreme Court 1855) affirmed that coporations are not individuals and therefore do not fall under the constitutional rubric of unalienable rights.
That all changed during the Civil War. Big bizz got a whiff of the loot that can be had from war profiteering (Haliburton & Blackwater are no slouches nowadays either), and after the conflict they went on to midwife our first Gilded Age.
I too have enjoyed a brief dialogue here at your blog, and I thank you for being gracious and civil!
Pax,
Muff
Dear WW -
I like reading your blog. Even if I don’t agree 100%, this blog makes me think.
I notice you have a link for CRI. To the best of my knowledge, CRI’s leader does not have an MDiv or even a college degree. He has about the same education as CJ Mahaney. So … comments?
Plus, CRI has had many well-documented financial indiscretions. Will you write about CRI like you have SGM and the SBC?
These questions are not meant to be contentious. It just seems puzzling that you would link to CRI, an organization that has many of the problems that you draw attention to on this blog.
Thanks!
Wondering, (Any relation to Just Wondering?)
You are right. We need to comment on this ASAP and I plan to do so very shortly. I am not pleased by some of the reports yet there are resources into ministries that are found at this site that are not well documented elsewhere. I promise to expand on this and am not going to run from the topic. Blessings .
Dee -
Are you wondering if I’m Just Wondering? No, I’m just Wondering. Who’s On First?
Thanks for your response. I will look forward to your comment.
Just Wanted to let Not Just Wondering know that we will do an expose of HH next week. We will discuss all of the allegations and will not white wash anything. We will be contacting equip.org for background and comments. We will be honest and will expect our readers Who Are Wondering to let us know if We or Who are on First Base or Off Base.
Blessings
“Just for grins, Google up Wendell Berry’s commencement address (2007) at Bellarmine University. He takes Corporate America to task with verve and elan. Berry has more credibility than the folks at Fox News will ever have.”
Since Barry is from my neck of the woods and I am quite familiar with the poet and author of fiction, here are a few snippets of some of his speeches:
http://www.relocalize.net/node/4770
“These forms of political economy may be described as sentimental because they depend absolutely upon a political faith for which there is no justification, and because they issue a cold check on the virtue of political and/or economic rulers. They seek, that is, to preserve the gullibility of the people by appealing to a fund of political virtue that does not exist. Communism and “free-market” capitalism both are modern versions of oligarchy. In their propaganda, both justify violent means by good ends, which always are put beyond reach by the violence of the means. The trick is to define the end vaguely – “the greatest good of the greatest number” or “the benefit of the many” – and keep it at a distance.”
This is my favorite:
“In the second place, the “law of competition” does not imply that many competitors will compete indefinitely. The law of competition is a simple paradox: Competition destroys competition. The law of competition implies that many competitors, competing on the “free market” will ultimately and inevitably reduce the number of competitors to one. The law of competition, in short, is the law of war. ”
(What he misses here is that without government intervention, the cylce starts all over because the ones that come out on top, get fat and lazy and some whippersnapper comes in and takes a big chunk of the market from them in quality and price and the cycle continues. This does not happen because of government intervention. Barry believes that free market competition leads to war. He is a crank)
Another one not well thought out:
“The folly at the root of this foolish economy began with the idea that a corporation should be regarded, legally, as “a person.” But the limitless destructiveness of this economy comes about precisely because a corporation is not a person. A corporation, essentially, is a pile of money to which a number of persons have sold their moral allegiance”
(Does he even know where the concept of a “corporation” came from?
BTW: I love the idea of local economy in food. And I do buy local for many things at the Farmers markets. But I also like to eat oranges in winter.
From Wiki:
Berry has criticized Christian organizations for failing to challenge cultural complacency about environmental degradation, and has shown a willingness to criticize what he perceives as the arrogance of some Christians. Berry is a fellow of Britain’s Temenos Academy, a learned society devoted to the study of all faiths and spiritual pursuits; Berry publishes frequently in the annual Temenos Academy Review, funded by the Prince of Wales.
Barry is an aggrarian socialist.