Wish I had said it just the way you did!

I love how you quote everything you’ve read that MEN wrote, but I see NO quotes from scripture that substantiate your points. You, instead, just criticize others for, apparently, not studying as much or knowing as much as you do.

My experience has taught me that people have a whole bunch of logical systematic theology built upon false, and flat out wrong, assumptions. And they usually get those wrong assumptions from men of God, who were also wrong, perpetuating bad theology.

First, I’d love for you to show me one single person who was, “ordained,” in the New Testament.

Now, regarding baptism:

In I Corinthians 1, Paul says he baptized Crispus and Gaius and the household of Stephanas. It goes without saying that all the other Corinthian believers were baptized by someone else.

1. Who baptized them?
2. Do you have proof that the person who baptized them was ordained and by whom?
3. What is your scriptural reference that instructs ministers to be ordained, and who ordains them?
4. What is your scriptural basis that instructs us to only be baptized by the, “ordained?”

(Please don’t give me some haughty answer like, “study more.” I’ve studied plenty, just like you.)

5. Who baptized those three thousand souls in Acts 2?
6. Do you have any scriptural evidence that tells us that they were ordained?

There were 120 people in the upper room, men and women, who were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. Any of them could have baptized the three thousand. It’s no stretch that if sons and daughters, bond slaves and free, could all prophesy, and could all be filled with the Holy Spirit, then any of them could baptize. I mean, if so many, “ordained,” ministers today, who are NOT filled with the spirit, baptize, why can’t someone who is not ordained, but filled with the spirit, baptize? And is the former more legitimate a baptism than the latter?

Matthew 28:19 says, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit…Let’s be consistent here, who does this passage speak to? Is it just to the eleven disciples or to all believers, because I’ve heard a million sermons telling me to make disciples as I go, referencing this passage?

If it applies to just the eleven, then you would have to say it applies only to them and not to other apostles, like Paul. So, only the eleven are to go and make disciples, baptizing them…Also, if it only applies to the eleven, then it must not apply to pastors, since they are not only of the eleven, but they are also not apostles, but pastors. So what are these pastors doing, baptizing? Are their baptisms illegitimate?

Well, then if this instruction is not ONLY to the eleven, then it must be to all believers, as well, since it doesn’t specify exactly to whom it also applies. And if the, “make disciples,” applies to other believers, then the, “baptizing them,” also applies to other believers. That would pretty much debunk your belief that only the, “ordained,” whoever they are, should baptize.

Regarding Calvinism vs. whatever else. The whole premise of the entire debate is false, wrong, illegitimate, and taken completely out of context. And if the premise is off, the whole debate is off. And I’ll deal with that later, if compelled.

Fascinating. What does it mean to get the Gospel right? Especially when there seem to be so many evangelicals who ardently disagree with one another. It seems to me that everyone thinks they know more than the others and that they are the only ones who are right. Funny thing, i am talking about those who believe in the essentials as found in the Apostles Creed. No wonder the secular world thinks we are nuts!

Since when did i say I agreed with Calvin on all things? I have studied the New Testament and do not see where it says that ordained pastors are the only ones who can baptize? Why does anyone need special authority to baptize? Isn’t one Christian, as part of the priesthood of the believer, allowed to function as priest under the authority of Jesus as his or her high priest?

Please define what “authority” you are speaking of so forlornly that I wish to take? Why can’t anyone administer the sacraments? What specific power is given to the administrator of the sacraments? Do the sacraments “not take” if it is given by an unordained person?

What is ordination? What occurs during said ceremony? Where did Christ say that a woman could not give the sacraments? Do the sacraments first start with an ordained minister who gives it to an unordained male who then gives it to a woman who then….what? Where is this spelled out? What is it about women that makes them unable to pass out the communion? What is it about unordained men that makes them unable to pass out communion? What do you mean by “administer” the sacraments? Isn’t it simply a remembrance of the Last Supper? Cannot a man read from Scripture which says…On the night He was betrayed, Jesus took the bread….? Why couldn’t a woman? What is the special “spiritual” duty in “administering” the sacraments? Do you believe like the Catholics that the host turns into the body of Christ?

You response is confusing and not elucidating. Since you are a man and therefore “in authority” over this woman, please explain yourself in such a way that this “easily deceived” woman can understand you. Or perhaps only those who are ordained can elucidate the Scripture to women and that is why I don’t understand you? Are you ordained?

I am amazed that two guys would both post on the same day on an old blog and say exactly the same thing. Both of you accused us of not reading Calvin, either his writings or his biography. Unfortunately, your assumptions are incorrect. I have read quite a bit of his writings as well as a biography.

Here is my issue. Everyone seems to be so cocksure that they are the ones who are interpreting Scripture correctly. However, all of these theologians seem to disagree ardently with one another and each of them are sure the other is bordering on heresy.

Baptists were once reformed; Baptists have never been reformed; no Baptist would be reformed, Arminians are heretics; Calvinists are heretics and on and on. Frankly, we spend so much time proving how right we are and a watching world looks on bewildered.

Go to the exChristian site and see how we are laughed at by those who see that we have a gazillion denominations and how we fight with one another over minutiae.

And, by the way, I am a Hus fan.There was a guy who gave it all with incredible humility.

I disagree with you on the issue of baptism. If it were so clearly taught than there would not be profound disagreement. So, please help me here. What sort of thing happens with ordination that gives one man the right to baptize and the other no right to baptize.

Also, comment on the fact that many have been baptized by “unordained” pastors. Are they not baptized?

Who can be ordained, by whom and what sort of call on their lives and specific training must they have to be ordained in your thinking? Can a woman be ordained to baptize?

As for homework, I have done much but am still so doing as you are. So, what makes your choice of homework superior to others choice of homework?
I have taught church history and am well aware of the heresies of the early church. I have taught them and I believe that you are in error in your interpretation of heresy.

Be cautious. If one were to ask an average Baptist or Calvinist to define the Trinity, one would hear many heresies. So, is the church filled with heretics with the exception of yourself?

Forgive me for saying this but you sound as if you have the answers and are in lecture mode. Why not get into discussion mode?

I have done my homework, and I believe (as Adrian Rogers did) that WHOSOEVER may come. Does that mean I am in error? If I don’t hold to a Limited Atonement, does that mean I’m wrong?

I attended a Presidential Forum at SEBTS a few years ago and Dr. Akin was asked a question about Election vs. Free Will. He said and I quote: “It’s a mystery.” Yes, it is, and neither camp has all the answers. What bothers me about some Calvinists is that they presume to believe they are ALWAYS RIGHT.

I will respond in depth later, but be very careful in assuming we have not read something. I have read a great deal of the Institutes and have studied Calvin’s life in some detail. probably more than many people who claim to be Calvinists.

Can I ask what you mean by being baptized by an “ordained” pastor. Are those who are ordained imbued with some specific gift that allows them to baptize?